Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[Souris]

I don't think Adam is backpedaling so much as telling people something that will maybe make them feel better and get them off his back. I don't for a minute think he understands people's objections. He thinks it was all crystal clear. And he would never admit to throwing other characters or messages under the bus, even to himself. And even if he did, he'd feel it justified in service of Regina. Emma's character is simply acceptable collateral damage.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Souris

[YaddaYadda]

The whole dialogue about pain and fighting is what makes Emma who she is was really atrocious and undid years of trying to get her out of that. The Emma that we knew from season 1 is vastly different from the one we have now. I'm surprised they didn't mention walls in that.

They basically doubled-down on the whole Emma is special because she is the Savior. If she's not the Savior then she is nothing. So thanks for that!

This is an episode that I can't really forgive personally. They wanna say that this universe was EQ's twisted version? Fine. But the words they put into Emma's mouth are her own. I'm also pretty sure Emma accepted herself and the things that come with being the Savior. She accepted that she will die, so Adam needs to shut up about the whole "you have to love yourself as you are" when it comes to Emma.

Emma didn't cut away her fate with the Shears, she got rid of them. 

This is how poorly thought out and conceived things are. They decided to bring Robin back and the only way they could do it without bringing him back from the dead was this idea, and they used Emma as the vehicle for it, but wrote the episode around Regina and only Regina.

This is why I never wanted a no curse AU because they were always going to fuck it up. I didn't imagine it would be this bit of a fuck up though.

Edited December 7, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the "Villains" thread:

Quote

If all she had were one night stands during that time she must have gone through a lot of men. Assuming she only had sex with a partner about once a month would be more than 100 men.

 That's just an awful lot of assuming with which I am not really comfortable.  "One nighters are as far as I ever go" does not imply the frequency, imo.  It could also have been a meaningless statement - just something to put off another person, not necessarily true.  I don't remember any mention of how long the affair with the married man lasted, but it didn't sound like it was a one night stand to me.  ymmv.  

[KateJones]

What affair? I don't remember that at all. 

[Shanna Marie]

It also sounded like Emma waited a long time for Neal to possibly come back to her. How long was it that she stayed in Tallahassee? I doubt she was having a string of one-night stands while hanging out in Tallahassee, waiting for Neal to meet her there. She'd have had to reach the point of deciding to give up on him, and then be ready and willing to move on.

[Rumsy4]

There was nothing stated outright that Emma had had an affair with a married man. She just said something like "trust me it's bad". I don't remember the exact words. She could have been speaking out of her experiences as a bailbondsperson.

Emma did say that one-nighters were as far as she went, but she also said that she doesn't pillage and plunder on the first date. There's no way to figure out the exact number of men she's slept with. 

I think Emma has been okay with the occasional caual encounter in the 10 years pre-Storybrooke, but after that, she was also fine with no-sex in Storybrooke. She was in a stable relationship with Walsh in the missing year. One can imagine (at least I can ;-)) Emma and Hook have an active sex-life when they are not interrupted by dirigibles and other crises.

[tri4335]

13 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

It also sounded like Emma waited a long time for Neal to possibly come back to her. How long was it that she stayed in Tallahassee? I doubt she was having a string of one-night stands while hanging out in Tallahassee, waiting for Neal to meet her there. She'd have had to reach the point of deciding to give up on him, and then be ready and willing to move on.

She was in Tallahassee for two years. I don't think she was ready and able to "move on" in the sense of a healthy relationship. I think she went to one night stands because Neal had damaged her so badly and they were solely for sexual release and no "feelings" were involved.  This is how I differ from SF fans. They think she didn't move on from Neal for ten years because she loved him.  I think she wasn't ready to move on into a relationship until she met Mary Margaret, who was supporting her with a mother's unconditional love (wow things have really changed since season 1).  This is why she was ready to have a relationship with Graham and then Hook.  I think Graham was very important to Emma (and he could've been the love of her life) but of course her BFF in all the realms/lands crushed his heart so we'll never know. :-P  I love CS but can recognize the Gremma would've been an awesome relationship too. I never saw SF as a great relationship but acknowledge that on paper having Emma and Bae end up together would be a great idea.  For me they never established that in what I saw on the screen.

[InsertWordHere]

The Season 5 flashbacks with Emma still seemingly living a transient life 8 years after having Henry make me question my previous ideas about her pre-Storybrooke lifestyle. Drifter Emma having one night stands is a little different from bailbondswoman Emma going to a bar after a rough chase and picking up a guy. Not saying one is better or worse than the other but it is a bit of a different dynamic. 

[Shanna Marie]

33 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

She was in Tallahassee for two years. I don't think she was ready and able to "move on" in the sense of a healthy relationship.

What I was saying that I doubted she even moved on to one-night stands until well after she gave up on Neal. I doubt she was having one-night stands during the time she spent waiting for him in Tallahassee. He was likely her first sexual experience, she believed she was in love with him, and she'd had his baby. She had hopes that he'd meet up with her again, and she waited for him. So that was two years at least before she'd have considered being with someone else, and then probably some transition time before she was ready to look at someone else, even for a one-night stand.

[tri4335]

@Shanna Marie Now I understand and agree with you completely. She wasn't doing anything but waiting for Neal in Tallahassee.  And each day that passed was another nail in the coffin for that relationship! 

@InsertWordHere Truthfully, I don't care how many ONS she had or why she had them - blow off steam, self-esteem issues, having fun whatever - and I wouldn't judge her for any of it. How I interpreted those scenes was that she was damaged by thinking Neal turned her in, going to jail, giving up Henry and then waiting for Neal in Tallahassee.  She could've been a nun or had been sleeping with several partners each day. What she wasn't doing was opening her heart to any "real" relationship. It was MM's love that we as the audience knew was a mother's love that made her open her heart first to Graham and then to Hook.  Now of course we've had numerous flashbacks, white washings, espousing of "I believe you did your best",  and a general feeling from Emma that "yes shitting on me is okay because you had no choice" to every other character. She is never allowed to call BS to Neal, Regina or her parents beyond some token anger that is quickly over and is usually seen as being worse then the horrible thing the before mentioned people did to her. Because like many shows the longer it is on, they retread and RECON what was seen in previous seasons.

And this is why I hate A & E. They took a show that had meaty relationships, intriguing story lines, phenomenal actors with great chemistry that was like being served prime rib and now it is Season 6 and they are serving us hot dogs while trying to label it filet mignon.

Edited December 8, 2016 by tri4335
Edited to add one more point

[KingOfHearts]

Responding from the Spoiler thread, no spoilers.

6A has made me dislike Emma more than I ever have before. All her character does is run in circles and make the same mistakes. She wallows in her own pities instead of parenting Henry or making sure Hook is doing okay after being raised from the dead... While she's supposed to be the selfless "Savior", sometimes it's like the world revolves around how she feels. She gets a pass on her behavior because WALLS, but how long does it last? When does she start taking responsibility for her own actions? I fear she has taken some cues from her BFF.

She's nowhere near as bad as Regina, but her character suffers from the same "boxed" writing problem she and the others do.

Edited December 11, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I've actually appreciated the movement Emma's character has had this season. She's basically been told that she's going to die and instead of running away, she went to get professional help to aid her in working through it. Even Hook was surprised that she was willing to open herself up and continue with therapy. There is nothing wrong with Emma taking a bit of time to process especially when she wasn't trying to do it on her own. She managed to take Archie's advice and asked Hook to move in, which belies the whole Emma still has huge walls narrative.

Also, I take issue with the show painting Emma as bad by not sharing with everyone (shut up, Snow!) when she wasn't walling herself off, but simply scared and trying to come to grips with things before everyone else added their own feelings about it. I also think that given Henry's guilt ridden reaction and feelings about things and his role in bringing he Saviour home, Emma wasn't entirely wrong to keep it to herself. Let's not forget that a certain someone immediately made it all about herself once she heard the news. 

The visions/shaky hands has seemed to be stagnant because Emma has had little story of her own, often being sidelined doing ridiculous things like packing. However, if you look at the tiny bits of story that were strictly Emma focused, she's actually made more progress than one would think. She has located the Oracle, gotten some therapy to help her deal with her fate, tracked down Aladdin in hopes that he knew of a solution, rejected the magical shortcut to "fix" her problem, and finally located the sword responsible for her death hoping to discover who was wielding it. Oh and she managed to take the time to be a labor coach for Belle, which has nothing to do with anything, but it gives her excuse for taking a day off from the search for the hooded figure.

I know a lot of people were annoyed that she chose to try to use the sword to kill the Evil Queen rather than destroying it, but how hard would it be for her killer to use a different weapon? Getting rid of the Evil Queen and identifying her killer seems like a better idea. Hopefully, the dumb wishverse is over soon, Emma kicks Gideon's ass and she can have some sort of real focus in 6B, but sadly, this show is very short on hope.

[KingOfHearts]

I don't really put much weight on the "therapy". It was pushed on Emma, and she only decided to keep doing it so she had someone to use as a sounding board for her crisis. She talked to Archie like he knew all about prophecies. She only took his advice once, then totally ignored it later. He may have gotten her to make one positive lifestyle choice, but I don't see any reason why she wouldn't lie again. The truth only came out because of the Evil Queen's meddling. If that didn't happen, she would have just continued the charade. We don't know if she is still having sessions or not.

[Shanna Marie]

On the one hand, it's hard to blame Emma too much when the whole thing reeks of writer manipulation, where they clearly are out of ideas for what to write for Emma, so they keep coming back to "walls." On the other hand, what makes it to air is part of the character, no matter how badly written, so it is the way she is, apparently.

Generally, I think the way they write Emma has a lot to do with the bleak tone of the show because she's never allowed to be happy, and then she's criticized for not being totally okay with the situation, and meanwhile the writers talk about the show being about hope and how poor Regina always gets the short end of the stick, even as they write an arc about Emma's magic being out of control and her fear that she should have to give it up so she won't hurt the people she loves, followed by an arc about Rumple trying to turn her dark and her learning that her parents were afraid she'd turn out dark, followed by an arc in which she was made the Dark One after she sacrificed herself for the town, followed by an arc in which she had to go to the Underworld to save the boyfriend she had to sacrifice to save everyone from the darkness, only to fail and have to return without him, and then she got about thirty seconds of happiness when he was miraculously returned to her before we had an arc about her learning that Saviors don't get happy endings and are all doomed to early deaths. But, y'all, it's totally a show about hope!

I think the shaky hands/visions of death/Savior doom stuff was one plot too many for this season. Couldn't they have left Emma alone for a little while and just let her deal with the situation of the Untold Stories people in town and the Evil Queen without throwing doomed destiny on top of it? Emma took on Mayor Mills and only briefly met Regina in Evil Queen mode. It would have been fun to mirror season one, but with her facing the Evil Queen instead of Mayor Mills, and her knowing what was what this time around. Or Emma could have focused on the Untold Stories stuff while her parents dealt with the Evil Queen, since they have experience with that. Why did we need yet another arc of Emma facing doom? Wasn't two whole years enough?

Also, a lot of Emma's current problems come down to her asshole son who, when he had one mom who just got her dead boyfriend back to life and another mom who'd just buried a boyfriend, decided that this was a great time to pull a crazy stunt and run away to New York and destroy magic. Without that, we don't have the Evil Queen. I don't know about all the shaky hands doom stuff. It seems to get worse around that sword, so was the sword in the airship, and that explains why it suddenly started then?

[daxx]

Rewatching the mid season finale. When Emma was crying over her parents there was something different about JMo's acting. I always cry when she cries, every time, no matter how many times I see a scene. I mean I bawl at the beginning of Star Trek.

Not this one, I didn't even feel it at all.

weird I didn't catch that the first time but it didn't move me at all.

[KingOfHearts]

I thought Zelena's crying after Regina's hypocritical speech was more moving, to be honest.

[Shanna Marie]

It's hard to take Emma's emotions about her parents too seriously anymore because we know she'll end up having a very unrealistic reaction, anyway. She made me cry when she was crying about watching Snow get burned at the stake, but after she immediately went back to Storybrooke and started talking about how great Regina was and groveling to her, that kind of killed it. If you watch someone burn your mother at the stake, and that really upsets you, you're going to see the person who did it in a different light, even if that person has changed (and especially if that person keeps lashing out at you or tries to lay a guilt trip for anything you did to her). From that point, it was impossible to relate to Emma's emotions about her parents, especially where Regina is concerned. Why cry about Emma crying about watching her parents be murdered when you knew she'd be totally okay with Regina and probably even thanking her about thirty seconds later?

[YaddaYadda]

I thought everything about the AU was emotionally detached, starting with the birthday and ending with Snowing's deaths. The whole episode was devoid of emotion. Hook, super emotional character had the energy of a cardboard.

They put Emma in a very princessy dress and had her call her parents "mommy" and "daddy". She looked like a barely teenager who has a teenage son who is about to be knighted and talked about the guy in the portrait who looked too old for her. She didn't even look like a 30 year old. 

The entire thing felt fake, and maybe that was the intent, although I'm tired of giving the writers credit they don't deserve.

[Souris]

14 hours ago, daxx said:

Rewatching the mid season finale. When Emma was crying over her parents there was something different about JMo's acting. I always cry when she cries, every time, no matter how many times I see a scene. I mean I bawl at the beginning of Star Trek.

Not this one, I didn't even feel it at all.

weird I didn't catch that the first time but it didn't move me at all.

Maybe JMo simply couldn't bring any real emotion to it because she recognized how effed up it was & was pissed about what it did to Emma. Or maybe it was a deliberate acting choice not to make it "real." Any such decision would be on the acting level & not the writing level, because the writing isn't that nuanced.

[Curio]

There were a lot of strange acting choices in "Wish You Were Here." There's also a depressing trend where Emma calls herself a demeaning name, and then Regina fully agrees.

Emma: I'm an idiot.
Regina: Finally, something we can agree on.

Emma: There was no one around to give me hope or tell me when I was being stupid.
Regina: Fine. You're being stupid.

Emma: That other person kind of sucked.
Regina: Yeah. Singing Princess Emma isn't my favorite model.

Why does Emma's self-esteem seem to lower whenever she's around Regina? Why does Emma think this way? What leads to her self-deprecation? Why couldn't we see Princess Emma in a Wish World that wasn't created by the Evil Queen? Why did A&E want an adult Emma to act like a child?

Sigh. I really could have seen a half season that focused on exploring what Emma could have been had she grown up as a princess, but clearly, A&E don't share the same interest in their main character as I do.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Why does Emma's self-esteem seem to lower whenever she's around Regina?

Because she obviously wants to be dominated by Regina. /sarcasm

Quote

Emma: I'm an idiot.
Regina: Finally, something we can agree on.

This dialogue reads like it was written in S2/3A, where Regina could say things like that and it wasn't blatant hypocrisy. 

Edited January 2, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

I was debating whether or not to put this post into the Unpopular Opinions thread. But, I settled on placing it here, since I suspect the discussion will keep going. Disclosure: I'm leaving Regina out of this because she is a whole other beast entirely.

Confession: I really don't like Emma.

Emma often gets a free pass for making questionable decisions, either due to WALLS or the idiot ball. Nothing she ever learns ever seems to stay. Since 4A, she's had very little character development. There were moments that were supposed to show her growth, but she always falls back to old behaviors one way or another. While S5 didn't always focus on her, it had some very major events in her life that should have had impact. 6A came in, and we're back to WALLS. Sorry Emma, but I no longer give a crap about your walls. I can't take your sacrifices and openings of the heart in S5 seriously after your regression. You were willing to die to protect your family in 5A, but now it's secrets and panic attacks. It doesn't make sense.

The writing is largely to blame, but as we've seen with other characters like Snow, the writing eventually becomes the character. Emma now has a pattern of ignoring everyone else to focus on her own problems. In 3B, she wanted to move to New York because she was scared of a future in SB. In 4A, she ran away from everyone because Ingrid made her feel insecure. In 5A, she hid from everyone to brood. In 6A, she lied to her family and lover about a life-threatening condition. In all these scenarios, she used "protecting her family" as a guise to mask her insecurities. She's the Savior, but she has always tried to run away from that role. She embraces it out of obligation and to look good in front of her family, not because she legitimately likes helping people.

I understand her family doesn't make it easy. Their support is occasional at best. I'm not saying Emma should care about her family more. But, I'm sick of this act showing she and her family are healthy. They aren't. They never deal with their problems, and I can't only blame Snow, Charming and Henry. Take 4B, for example. Emma was rightfully pissed at her parents over the eggnapping debacle. But instead of really dealing with it, she just forgave them and hugged her mom. I'm all for forgiveness, but that situation warranted much more than that. Emma spent most of the time off pouting, per usual, instead of confronting her parents. 

And please realize, I don't think Emma is solely the issue. There are other people in her life that have a lot to do with who she is. Hook, however, has supported her and given her no reason to back away. It's annoying that he's usually lumped together with her family, since supposedly she has opened her heart up more to him than any other person. "Yes, you may be my True Love, but I'm going to hide the fact a hooded figure is coming to murder me. Just didn't want to worry you!" It's the same BS we've seen in past arcs and I'm really sick of it.

I don't hate Emma. I just think the writers have no clue how to write her character. She has gone from a deep character to a one-note cutout. She's not this strong symbol of independence she's painted as nearly as often as she's a runaway.

Edited January 6, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

For being the main character, Emma is not the favorite character for many people. It's largely a fault of the writing, but as you say, KoH, at some point, the character is what the writing makes them. Emma is still one of my favorite charatcers in the Show, but I too have my issues with her (though they're not the same as yours). 

I have to disagree that Emma is self-focussed. Yes, I too am sick of hearing about her WALLS, but most of the time, Emma is pretty much focussed on saving other people. The one exception was the Dark Swan arc, where she tried to save Hook against his wishes, and it backfired on her majorly. Even then--she became the Dark One to save the town--or Regina--(or both) depending on who you ask. 

Quote

 In 3B, she wanted to move to New York because she was scared of a future in SB.

The way Emma kept repeating the New York mantra was irritating as heck, but IMO she was totally justified in not wanting to stay in Storybrooke. Her parents got a replacement baby, there's always some new villain in town, and Henry mainly cared about his other mother. She should have taken Hook and gone back to New York.

Quote

 In 4A, she ran away from everyone because Ingrid made her feel insecure.

Is that fair? lol She ran away because her magic was physically endangering people. 

Quote

Hook, however, has supported her and given her no reason to back away. It's annoying that he's usually lumped together with her family, since supposedly she has opened her heart up more to him than any other person. 

It is annoying how the 5B finale and 6A put Captain Swan back where they were at the end of 4B, except they're apparently living together now. Even though we never get to see it. 

My issues with Emma lie in the way she coddles Regina, even after witnessing her murder/attempted murder of her parents multiple times, and how she lets Henry get away with all the crap he pulls. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I think the main problem with Emma is that she's not written like she's an actual person. She's seldom allowed to have a natural, normal human reaction to anything, and when she does, she gets criticized for it by other characters. She's not allowed to get angry at someone who wrongs her, resent someone who betrays her, feel sad when she loses something or someone. She watches Regina torch her mother and it doesn't affect the way she sees Regina. She's criticized by her mother the moment she mentions how awful her childhood was and has to repeat the "you had no choice" mantra, but then has had to take it when Henry mentions her giving him up. She has to call Neal a hero and be okay with her parents naming her brother after the man who knocked her up and abandoned her in jail when she was a teenager. She hasn't exploded from any of that, and it's just not human, which means she's impossible to relate to, which means the writers don't really care about her, and we get a downward spiral of being unrelatable.

I think I like the idea of Emma more than I like the actual character. I like the Disney princess who missed out on the princess part of her life, growing up on the streets instead -- a princess who's a Lost Girl and a Street Rat, who can pick a lock and shoot a gun, who's still a little amused and freaked out by the fact that her parents are Snow White and Prince Charming, but who's in love with Captain Hook. That's the character we got in season one (well, apart from the Hook part, since he wasn't around, but that's the character who fell in love with Hook) and who occasionally pops out when she has a moment to escape from being a plot device or a Regina prop or when they think to write something other than "walls!" for her.

Unfortunately, they're as redundant with her as they are with everyone else. How many times did she struggle to figure out how to use her powers, only to get some kind of epiphany that ended up making her able to do anything she wants with the wave of a hand, until the next time she struggled with her powers? How many times has she struggled with her walls, only to have a big emotional breakthrough, until the next time she struggles with her walls?

[Rumsy4]

6 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

She's seldom allowed to have a natural, normal human reaction to anything, and when she does, she gets criticized for it by other characters.

I think this is the root of all problems with the way Emma is written. And this is usually done in a way to justify wrongs done by other characters like Bagel or Regina, or even her parents. 

[Camera One]

Practically no one on this show has a "natural, normal human reaction to anything".  Emma already fares better than many of the other characters in this regard.  At least she does have feelings and she gets a chance to voice them.  That's pretty much the most you can expect out of this show.  Neal is dead.  Her parents get no quality screentime.  Henry is a plot device.   So what does that leave?  CS and Regina, which are the only times in which Emma gets to have regular conversations longer than 30 seconds which reveal something about what she thinks.  

The problem is the repetitiveness, since A&E don't know what to do except to give her two modes - one where she "deals" with having the weight of the world on her and one where she puts up WALLS.  Nevertheless, I still find it easier to like Emma, and I think people can relate to her insecurities and fears of opening up.  

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Practically no one on this show has a "natural, normal human reaction to anything".

Well, Regina gets to have a full (and sometimes extreme) reaction to everything that happens. Henry also gets to react (and overreact). Hook seems to be at a "normal" happy medium for getting to react to things about the way you'd expect someone of his age and his experiences to react, though he does seem to be getting more mellow lately (probably because they can't be bothered to write anything for him now, though I guess you could also say that death changed him and gave him a different perspective). With Emma, they put her through all kinds of stuff but are hit and miss as to how she's allowed to react. Sometimes she gets to have emotions, other times the writers seem to forget what just happened to her, and sometimes she's treated like she's in the wrong for having emotions.

On some level, while the walls get boring, as often as they're repeated, that may be the most realistic reaction she's allowed to have. Something would be wrong with her if she didn't put up her guard, after everything she's gone through, and while I can see why the people who love her would get frustrated and feel hurt that this is her go-to coping mechanism that shuts them out, it's perfectly understandable for her to react that way. I also don't have a huge problem with her not going to others for help all the time (especially since they act like she has to handle everything on her own most of the time, anyway). I once drove myself to the emergency room, with a stick shift, when I had a laceration on my right thumb that required five stitches, because it didn't occur to me to call anyone to ask for help, so I guess I relate to not thinking of telling everyone about visions about her death or worries about her magic. I just wish that she'd every so often be allowed to have a normal reaction to other stuff, to be mad at her parents for more than five minutes or to tell Regina to get over herself, or to not let her boyfriend out of her sight after he miraculously returned from the dead. Seriously, someone you love dies, and after the funeral he shows up, perfectly okay, thanks to a god owing him a favor. Do you really leave town and leave him behind, or do you handcuff yourself to him, for fear it'll turn out not to be real, or maybe could only be temporary?

[Camera One]

Quote

Well, Regina gets to have a full (and sometimes extreme) reaction to everything that happens.

Well, it is Regina.  Though to me, extreme reactions aren't exactly natural and normal and I wouldn't call Regina's reactions all that human.  "I hated every moment of doing good?"  That's equally as ridiculous.

Quote

 Henry also gets to react (and overreact).

He gets to react when there's a plot that needs to be moved along.  His reactions have been some of the most unnatural and abnormal responses I've ever seen in a fictional teenage character.  

Hook is probably the one who gets to respond mostly "normally".  

So far in 6A, Emma has expressed fear, worry, frustration, anger, being tempted, getting back her resolve... I would definitely not classify it as good writing, but I actually did "like" her more on rewatch than the first time around because I just hated the Savior-Must-Die storyline so much.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Is that fair? lol She ran away because her magic was physically endangering people. 

The irony is that it was the running that caused the powers to go nuts. She started feeling insecure about herself, and it took Elsa to approach her for her to calm down.

Quote

The way Emma kept repeating the New York mantra was irritating as heck, but IMO she was totally justified in not wanting to stay in Storybrooke. Her parents got a replacement baby, there's always some new villain in town, and Henry mainly cared about his other mother. She should have taken Hook and gone back to New York.

I agree Emma had a thousand and one reasons not to live in Storybrooke. However, this is the core reason the show gave.

Hook: "You’ve taken care of the boy quite well here. You can talk about danger all you like, but it isn’t that. So, tell me, what is it? Why are you so scared of staying? think it’s because you can see a future here. A happy one."

I don't really see how Emma went from saying "This is our home" in 3x11 to being scared of having a future in Storybrooke in 3B. I wouldn't blame Emma for wanting to stay with her comfy life in New York and keep Henry in a more stable environment. But, that wasn't the angle the show went for. It was before Emma's inner issues regenerating because PLOT needed to teach us there's no place like home.

Quote

I have to disagree that Emma is self-focussed. Yes, I too am sick of hearing about her WALLS, but most of the time, Emma is pretty much focussed on saving other people. 

She's not self-focused as Regina is. She's not in it for glory. She just tends to let personal issues cloud her judgement. Instead of going out and doing something impulsive, she normally just points in inward and goes off to do things herself. That was believable behavior for the first few seasons, but the show has made a point now and again that she needs to change and not just run away. It's a lesson the show wants her to learn, but she never actually does it. I believe she cares about other people, but often her insecurities win over due to a lack of real character growth.

Quote

Well, it is Regina.  Though to me, extreme reactions aren't exactly natural and normal and I wouldn't call Regina's reactions all that human.  "I hated every moment of doing good?"  That's equally as ridiculous.

I would argue Regina doesn't get to react to things as a human being either. Her emotions are created by the plot, not for the plot. Whatever she feels, it's whatever the writers need her to feel. Many times they need her to overreact because that drives stilted drama better. It gets a point across in a more obvious way.

Quote

Hook is probably the one who gets to be the most "normal".  

See, Hook is the reason I have to judge characters who don't develop. He has had actual progress you can see. You can't say, "Well, this character hasn't evolved because none of the characters get to." Because of Hook, I know it's possible to have an arc. I still mostly blame the writers on Emma's behalf, but I can't help but draw comparisons or contrasts with him.

Quote

because I just hated the Savior-Must-Die storyline so much.

I despise this storyline. It just destroys Emma's development, much like Regina with the Zelena/EQ plot. It's all about regression for a contrived plot. I would place it as one of my least favorite in the series.

Edited January 6, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

49 minutes ago, Camera One said:

He gets to react when there's a plot that needs to be moved along.  His reactions have been some of the most unnatural and abnormal responses I've ever seen in a fictional teenage character.  

You mean its not normal to be so concern over murdering a pen?

[Camera One]

6 minutes ago, Curio said:

Honestly, any episode that actually shows us what Emma had to go through in prison that lasts longer than 30 seconds is fine by me. How is it that she's supposedly the main character, yet we've never had a thorough flashback episode to one of the most defining moments of her past? Quick 10 second clips here and there doesn't cut it.

 

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

It would have been better if Cleo was a fellow prisoner, for many reasons.

 

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

This is the show where Emma came out of prison an even sunnier and naive person than she was before.  So one must be careful of wishes.

This reminded me how there ARE still time periods in some characters' pasts that we could explore to learn something new.  Prison would have been the appropriate time when Emma built up her WALLS.  Clearly, that was a very "off" day in the Writers' Room when they came up with the Cleo episode.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I read some article on a Buzzfeed-ish website that this famous quote from Emma:

Quote

Emma: "You want to change things, you're gonna have to go out there and change them yourself, because there are no fairy godmothers in this world."

Naturally, the article was about lessons we've learned from Once Upon a Time. I think Emma was a good role model in that even though life kicked her in the face repeatedly, she still got up and did her own thing. I've always respected the independent element of her character. The problem is, however, that the show totally undermines her. In the show, there actually are fairy godmothers and if you hope enough, things will get better. It's a nice sentiment for fairy tales, but it puts Emma in the wrong. She rarely gets rewarded for her experience as a real person.

I wouldn't mind if the show mixed the two philosophies, so that there's a balance.  Snow's "good always wins" credo is not always accurate. Neither is Emma's approach. There's just very little grayness, and whenever there is grayness, it is seldom acknowledged.

Edited January 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

She said that to Ashley in the original Cinderella episode, before she knew there were fairy godmothers, and the quote was certainly a good sentiment.  But in the world created by this show, Cinderella's fairy godmother was murdered (no justice ever exacted, plus no one cared), and Cinderella actually received an extremely steep price for her failure to read the contract, much worse than anything that our "real world" could have thrown her.  There is no consistency in the show's messaging.  It's not "if you try hard, things can get better", since half the time, it's "random luck will help you get by".

Edited January 28, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

26 minutes ago, Camera One said:

She said that to Ashley in the original Cinderella episode, before she knew there were fairy godmothers, and the quote was certainly a good sentiment.  But in the world created by this show, Cinderella's fairy godmother was murdered (no justice ever exacted, plus no one cared), and Cinderella actually received an extremely steep price for her failure to read the contract, much worse than anything that our "real world" could have thrown her.  There is no consistency in the show's messaging.  It's not "if you try hard, things can get better", since half the time, it's "random luck will help you get by".

The sentiment still works within the context of the episode. It's what happens later that tramples all over it.

[KAOS Agent]

I've been annoyed with the hope message for a long time. Snowing's plan was basically to throw their newborn baby in a tree and cross their fingers. Then they pretended that because Emma broke the curse, it really was all okay. Other than that brief moment in "Lost Girl" they still pretend that Emma's loss of childhood, family and love isn't a big deal because they found each other. It's a fantasy that they use to pretend the whole hope thing is a valid life choice with no consequences. Emma's message of get up and keep on going is much more realistic and hopeful than the do nothing and hope approach that her mother takes. I'm sure the villagers whose lives were destroyed would have appreciated Emma's stand up and fight attitude more than Snowing's our happiness is the best revenge attitude.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I've been annoyed with the hope message for a long time. Snowing's plan was basically to throw their newborn baby in a tree and cross their fingers. Then they pretended that because Emma broke the curse, it really was all okay.

Snowing had the prophecy that Emma would save them 28 years later, so why even bother with the tree in the first place? Even if they were all cursed, at least Emma would have had some sort of family. (She even mentions this in 2A.) Regina wouldn't have killed her because fate had already decided she would live to save them. How that would happen, I don't know, but the prophecy was all they had to go off of. They didn't even know Regina was aware of the Savior until long after the tree was built.

Edited January 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Hecate7]

On 7/20/2016 at 9:43 AM, Curio said:

I actually think the show wants us to believe Emma is competent at her job. "Emma Swan always gets her man." The way she was able to tell right away Hook was lying about being a blacksmith. Her handy USB gadgets. The way the Pilot episode introduced her as someone who confidently did her job, and did it in 5-inch heels. In Season 1, it seemed like the show was introducing her as someone who would utilize more of those skills, like reading body language or analyzing voice inflection when someone is hiding something (which we see in the Pilot episode when she reads Regina correctly), but I was lamenting that the show hasn't gone in that direction.

Exactly. This was kind of my point—someone in Emma's field should inevitably and instinctually be better at reading people than most others who aren't in that line of work. If Emma wasn't good at it, she shouldn't have gotten the job. And the fact that she was also a criminal gives her even more of an advantage over others at reading that type. But like I said, the show isn't really interested in showing that side of Emma much, so we have a small sample size to analyze.

And it IS canon. Emma says it, and several times other characters: Henry, Snow, Hook, even Regina, have said "use your superpower." I think Rumple might even have done it once, to prove he wasn't lying. Everyone knows Emma has one superpower: she can tell when someone is lying. The show should have made more use of it. Too bad.

[Shanna Marie]

35 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Everyone knows Emma has one superpower: she can tell when someone is lying. The show should have made more use of it. Too bad.

And if they were going to treat it like an actual magical power, it needed to work, and work consistently, maybe in such a way that it became inconvenient for her, when she wanted to believe the little white lie or the softened truth, and yet she was physically unable to do so, or else when she was dealing with a sociopath who could lie with a straight face, and so only Emma knew he/she was lying and couldn't get anyone else to believe her (they kind of did that with Tamara, but didn't fully go there). If it's really supposed to be a superpower and not just her being good at reading people and jokingly calling it a superpower, then it has to work all the time, and really work.

[Camera One]

It's only mentioned when it's convenient, and we still haven't gotten the flashback when Superman grants her the power by giving her a crystal from his Fortress of WALLS.

[Curio]

It's as if the show has gone out of its way to make Emma worse at reading people now. When is the last time Emma was the only person in the room who was able to tell someone was lying? The writers like to say Emma's lie detector is faulty because she's more open and vulnerable now which impedes her "superpower," but apparently that's not true because Season 6 has reverted Emma back to hiding behind her walls. 

13 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It's only mentioned when it's convenient, and we still haven't gotten the flashback when Superman grants her the power by giving her a crystal from his Fortress of WALLS.

 

Is this fortress located on the Mexican border?

[KingOfHearts]

Emma's lie detector was faulty way back in the Pilot. She thought Henry was lying about being her son.

[Camera One]

That's because bringing up the word "son" was a trigger which made her emotional and her "special superpower" couldn't work.   In addition, her birthday is the one day in the year her superpower is off.  Don't forget the smoke from the candle neutralizes superpowers.  

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma's lie detector was faulty way back in the Pilot. She thought Henry was lying about being her son.

He was. He's really Regina's.

[daxx]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

He was. He's really Regina's.

After he got his memory back in 3B he started calling her Emma again. Of course he now calls them both mom but that wasn't his first instinct.

[Shanna Marie]

It was mentioned in the recent episode thread that Emma's not allowed to have emotions or emotional reactions to anyone. That, to a large extent, has been the issue with the character, with a bit of self-fulfilling prophecy from the writers built in. She's never allowed to react to what's going on, which makes her hard to relate to, and then the writers can justify keeping her on the sidelines and focusing on Regina on the grounds that Emma's not easy to relate to.

If you really look at what Emma's gone through and how she's reacted, it's utterly unrealistic, even for a fantasy show. Start with the way she's reacted to Regina. If someone constantly snarked at you and undermined you, you figured out that she was trying to frame your best friend for murder, she tried to kill you, nearly killed your son, and then you learned that she was responsible for your life sucking because of something she did to try to hurt your parents, and then she tried to kill you and everyone else in your family, the normal, human reaction is to utterly hate her and want her dead. A really well-adjusted person with a deep faith or some other kind of moral code that values forgiveness might be able to learn to live and let live. It's hard to believe anyone becoming such good friends so quickly and easily, without any kind of apology and with the snark, abuse, and undermining still going on. There was recently a series of articles in our local newspaper about a man whose teenage daughter goaded her boyfriend into trying to murder her parents (she'd learned about the concept of life insurance and imagined that she and her boyfriend would get all the money and get to live on their own and have fun). The man survived, but his wife died. He was initially very angry and pushed to have them tried as adults. But a decade or so later, after both of them had apologized and expressed remorse, he was able to forgive them and now calls and visits them in prison. But this was his daughter, someone he'd brought up from infancy, and it took a lot of time and her having changed her heart. Regina hasn't said or done anything that would give Emma any reason to give a damn about her.

Then there's the other stuff she's not been allowed to react to. She's got multiple sets of fake memories -- bringing up Henry, time locked in that tower, growing up with her parents -- that she's never reacted to or shown that she even remembers. There was all that stuff about fearing losing another love, but then she didn't get to react to him nearly dying in front of her while she was helpless. She got to shed a few tears when he died and then when she thought she'd lost him to the Underworld, but then when he miraculously came back to life, she immediately ditched him and then barely reacted to the news that she might have lost him and her parents to another realm. She thinks she's going to die soon, and she's mildly resigned -- not even a bucket list, apparently.

You know, for someone whose primary characteristic is supposedly WALLS, she has an interesting tendency to quickly and easily develop deep bonds with people who have already hurt and betrayed her. Do the walls only apply to people who haven't yet failed her? Her childhood best friend was someone whose lies and betrayal got her sent back into the foster system and then lost her what could have been a good home, and she still thinks of this person as a friend. Her other best friend is a person she knows has abandoned her and manipulated someone else into betraying her and getting her sent to prison. Then there's her friend who's actually tried to murder her more than once and who has a vendetta against her family. She considers the guy who got her pregnant as a teenager and got her sent to jail to be a hero. For someone with walls, she sure is trusting and forgiving.

[Camera One]

Don't forget she emerged from prison just as naive, trusting and hopeful as she was before she went in.  Too bad "Firebird" wasn't a musical episode because Emma could have done a great rendition of Little Orphan Annie's "Tomorrow" to break down Cleo's WALLS.

"Tougher Than The Rest" could have had flashbacks with Young Emma, Oliver Twist, Pippi Longstocking, Annie and Anne of Green Gables.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Bby Emma was using her baby blanket to keep warm (X). :-/

[Curio]

That makes Regina's random off screen discovery of Emma's blanket in the Season 5 premiere even more depressing and unrealistic.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

That makes Regina's random off screen discovery of Emma's blanket in the Season 5 premiere even more depressing and unrealistic.

I'm confused... didn't Mary Margaret discover it in S1? Wouldn't Regina have possibly seen it in the loft at some point?

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm confused... didn't Mary Margaret discover it in S1? Wouldn't Regina have possibly seen it in the loft at some point?

Emma had it in her box of stuff at the loft in season one, where Mary Margaret saw it. In season 4, we saw that Emma had her box of stuff with the blanket at the police station. That's where she shared her treasures with Hook and found the video with Ingrid. It's possible that the box was still sitting out with the blanket in it when she showed the video to the others, but I don't think there has ever been a scene with Regina and the blanket, so Regina was possibly the last person in town, other than maybe Granny or Grumpy, who would have known where to find the blanket and that the blanket was meaningful. Hook was the one most likely to know where the blanket currently was and that it had some significance to Emma, and Snow was the one who really understood the full significance.