Why the Demarcation? - Liv's Love Life

[Cranberry]

Ravi and Clive are not zombies. Liv can not date them because they are not zombies. She can not date Major because he is not a zombie. She can date Lowell because he is a zombie. That's like... her one major rule when it comes to relationships; she can't risk accidentally scratching a living person. She's said it several times. I don't understand how you can possibly see that as a rationalization that holds no weight if you've been paying any attention to the show.

[Julia]

I have not seen a remotely strong reason that has been given why either Ravi or Clive would not be a potential love interest for Liv. I have seen rationalizations that hold no weight at all and are rather predictable in their tone.Again this seems like an avoidance of the discussion. However if we want to pretend that Ravi or Clive somehow fit characterizations that are disallowed the possibility of being a love interest solely on the character, then a simple question. Why were POCs given roles which are designed to be friendzoned while white males are given roles where they can be love interests?

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree.

If you want to argue that Lowell could just as easily have been played by an actor of color, I completely agree with you.

If you don't believe that adult professionals not dating coworkers, and Liv avoiding relationships with the living (the only reason she's not with the man she wanted to spend her life with) because she's an infectious undead creature who knows that as a zombie she has imperfect impulse control and doesn't want to kill or turn someone she loves, are compelling reasons to avoid dating her boss and her partner, I think you're underestimating their importance.

I also suspect that we weigh the comparative importance of romantic relationships and friendship differently. Which is fine.

I also suspect that given a choice between lead and marginalized love interest to the leading lady, most actors would pick lead.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Julia

[dohe]

Major is getting more and more screentime by each episode and had multiple sequences that did not feature Liv at all in the latest episode. One of the original arguments about why Wallace and Veronica or why Weevil and Veronica should not be together was it was better to be them than a marginalized love interest. However while Duncan, a very poor characterization, did end up marginalized, it was Veronica's other major love interest Logan who became the 2nd most prominent character of the show by the 3rd season while Weevil was reduced to cameo's and Wallace came across as an afterthought. The notion that being a love interest means marginalization doesn't hold much weight for me going by how Veronica Mars ended up the Logan and Veronica Show.

Edited April 19, 2015 by dohe

[Julia]

I'm not sure how Major, whose role on this show is specifically to be friendzoned, getting more screentime proves or disproves anything about love interests.

That said, I can see that a great many of your difficulties with this show actually have to do with another show I'm not familiar with, so I guess this isn't a productive conversation.

Mileage varies.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Julia

[BPOX]

I'm not sure how Major, whose role on this show is specifically to be friendzoned, getting more screentime proves or disproves anything about love interests.

 

Major isn't friendzoned. Friendzone is a place for people you aren't attracted to, don't really consider at all, except maybe to try to let them down gently. Then maybe they resent it and complain about how blind and shallow you are.

 

Major has been put on the impossible chivalric love pedestal. If only Liv can find the cure for zombie she can be with him. Yeah sure it makes sense to me that she may not still want him in the end, but in the meantime he is the symbol of all she has lost. He may resent being shut out, but he's her ex. He knows something is going on, but he's not sexually invisible. Anyhow, this sort of character tends to stick around a long time, like or not, because OMG tragic love angst.

 

If you want to argue that Lowell could just as easily have been played by an actor of color, I completely agree with you.

 

 

Yeah, after they made a joke of Liv's Asian fetish cover story last week it couldn't have hurt.

 

Ravi and Clive are not zombies. Liv can not date them because they are not zombies

This seems straight forward to fix. ; )

 

Of course if James was playing Ravi or Buckley was playing Clive they would already be depicted as love interests. If Buckley played Clive, angst over Liv being in love with him but unable to be with him sexually would be played out just as it is now being played out between Liv and Major.

 

Um, I'm pretty confused because I don't have all the actors name's memorized, but I think I follow. Put a conventionally hot guy in any role and yeah the audience will expect and argue for a romance. If he's her boss, or a professional relationship, yeah TV does that all the time. Sure it's a conflict, but fiction thrives on conflict.

 

Where I'm a tad confused is you saying, I think, if the guy who plays Major played Clive then he would be the main love object. But that doesn't make sense to me. Clive's role is cop, someone new that Liv only has contact with because she has left her comfortable world. So sure he could be end game, indeed romance among crime fighting partners is an old standard, but the pining thing has got to be the Wonderbread guy. Nobody eats Wonderbread anymore do they? I am sooooo old.

 

Anyhow, the way I see it, the obvious fix for this problem is more gratuitous towel scenes all the way around. In the meantime I am in the it's been 5 episodes wait and see camp really. I'm enjoying both Ravi and Clive so far.

Edited April 19, 2015 by BPOX

[Julia]

Major isn't friendzoned. Friendzone is a place for people you aren't attracted to, don't really consider at all, except maybe to try to let them down gently. Then maybe they resent it and complain about how blind and shallow you are.

Going by the wikipedia and urban dictionary definitions, I'd say that the common usage is someone who is outside your romantic consideration, for whatever reason.

What you're saying may be the most prominent variant usage - I would have no way of knowing - in which case I should clarify that I was using the consensus definition.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Julia

[Watcher0363]

I have been trying to stay out of this for the simple reason that the show is only a few episodes in. However I understand the concern of some. The fact that none of the actual POC's have actually acknowledge that Liv is attractive gives pause. Now Clive could be gay, and there is nothing wrong with that, but I am assuming he is not. He could in some way at least acknowledge that Liv has some physical attractiveness. Or that Ravi has not acknowledge Liv's attractiveness in a non threatening power play boss predator way. The only POC hint at dating has been in a fetish way with the Asian gangster, not how I like my interracial relationship portrayed.

 

I think some fear that Liv may become a leading single white female, who is to pure to be touched or spoiled by a POC. Which if she becomes that, it would truly offend many out there. But I must admit if they were to introduce African American zombies who were once very dark in skin tone. They are going to have problems, vitiligo is hard to hide in dark skinned African Americans.

 

I am going to wait out this season to see where they take Liv and her love life. Because this show really should be much darker. 

[XtremeOne1]

I'm so confused  right now. I'm sorry but if Ravi would acknowledge Liv's attractiveness, to Liv, that would be gross. He's her boss. Clive, meanwhile, seems to be an all around good guy. This whole "too pure to be touched or spoiled by a POC" is..I don't know..making me uneasy because it's so far out there. 

 

Looks like at Veronica Mars, Weevil constantly commented on Veronica's prettiness(and her use of her 'cuteness' to get what she wanted). Weevil is a PoC but Weevil isn't like Ravi or Clive. While he respected Veronica as a person, I don't see him respect Veronica so much as a woman.

 

From what we've seen of Clive and Ravi, they don't seem to share his point of view. I'm not sure what environments you've been around but are Ravi and Clive supposed to comment to Liv on her attractiveness. Are they supposed to perv out to every female they see like Cisco on The Flash? And Ravi is supposed to be her confidant and closet, non-recurring friend. And Clive, well it's been a few episodes. There have been moments where I've thought, "Oh they might go there.." but right now they're two people just getting to know and trust each other.

 

I'm so confused by this whole discussion. This is the biggest damned if you do, damned if they don't, I've ever seen.

 

And Liv never had a fetish...

 

Also, when PoC die, they don't turn white...Such a weird thing to say but Liv becomes pale because white people become pale upon death. She isn't stark white or anything...She's dead person pale.

 

I mean, seriously, this conversation is so strange. It's been half of a first season where Liv is just starting to maybe considering having a love life again and has a total of two love interest...

 

Just...yeah...

Edited April 19, 2015 by XtremeOne1

[Featherhat]

I don't know. I do understand the concern but first it was panic that Liv was going to go the "Spuffy-ish" route and date the creepy "badish" guy and now that's probably blown out, there's freaking out that there's no sexual tension between her and any POC and the show is *only five episodes old*.

 

I get the concern I really do and I get that its annoying that Asian men are so rarely the love interest but to call the show racist because Ravi right now only her friend/boss and Clive is only colleague is jumping the gun. Major has been her only real Love Interest so far and until the last ep his screentime hasn't been great either. She was a middle class white girl dating a middle class white man and is still hung up on him post zombiefication which is standard, baring Latina women the only people Liv has shown any potential interest in have been Zombies.

 

If Ravi was Robert played with the same dialogue I don't see a romantic pairing with Liv at this stage, I really don't. a) He's personally and professionally fanboying her Zombie-ism and is geeking out and trying to be there for her and b) knows she thinks dating someone means zombiefing them. Ravi's arguably the most popular character on the show with fans but that doesn't have to mean he enters the Love Triangle of Doom of CW shows immediately. He's not a stereotype at the moment. He's an educated British Asian Doctor/Geek. Admitted British Asian doctors aren't hard to find IRL (I live in London) but they aren't often portrayed on US TV.

 

 That doesn't mean he or Clive won't enter the "main character love interest apocalypse" in the future. It also doesn't preclude entirely separate good storylines further down the road. And I think Rahul Kohli is going to make his name on iZombie far more than Robert Buckley is.

 

If he and Clive enter S2ep5 with nothing more to do than they are currently doing and hanging around as ornaments to the great Liv/Major storyline then yeah that's bullshit but so far I don't see big problem.

Edited April 19, 2015 by Featherhat

[Lady Calypso]

Well, from how I see it, the show is still fairly early in. I'll admit that I haven't watched much of Veronica Mars, so I cannot comment on that show. All I can comment on is what they are doing on this show. Ravi may not be a romantic interest right now, but it doesn't mean that he won't in the future. Right now, they're just trying to establish the zombies and what their role is on the show. Ravi also has some stereotypes built into his character, being the best friend/sidekick who is in on the secret and is there to help Liv out and help her find herself again. He's one of the only support systems that Liv has so for him to become a romantic interest, at least as of right now, is probably way too early. I would totally be on board with Liv/Ravi because it would be the less typical of romances, but I'm not disappointed that there are no hints right now. Liv needs a support system and since Lowell's just a love interest who will disappear soon enough, and Blaine's the evil bad guy, Ravi is that support system who is in on the secret and doesn't need to be that love interest. 

 

As for Clive, I see him as someone who is building up a rapport with Liv, being that new, distrustful colleague and being someone who didn't know her before she became a zombie, so he gets to be the unbiased, clueless yet growing partner with Liv. Sure, Ravi didn't know Liv either, but the difference is that Clive is unaware of Liv's zombieness. I could absolutely see Liv and Clive going there moreso than Liv/Ravi, but honestly I see these two more as partners than anything and that's ok too. Clive looks like he's a lot older, not that age is particularly a problem, but he also seems like he wouldn't be a good fit for Liv. He also does not know Liv well enough for them to be a couple right now.

 

Sure, they absolutely could have cast Major as a POC, or even Lowell, but I think the reason why Lowell's white (and British so at least he's not a typical American) is so that the questions of how he can look so normal and be a zombie could arise. It wouldn't work as well if he had been of another race. As for Major, obviously they could have broken typical stereotypes and made him a POC but most shows do the exact same thing here. It doesn't mean that they're racist; it just means that they have a particular preference, or that they pictured this lead character in a particular way, or he just happened to be the best actor for the job.

 

And personally, if Ravi and Clive were commenting on Liv's attractiveness, I would be squicked out. I think they're both aware that Liv is attractive and they don't have to say anything about it. 

 

The only two love interests Liv has had is Major and Lowell, and both represent two very different ends of Liv's love life. Major is part of Liv's past, and solely on Liv's past. She broke up with him and has been going back and forth on him since the first episode, but she clearly cares about him still and only broke up with him because of her becoming a zombie, so I would be surprised if she fell out of love with him. And Lowell, I think, is part of Liv's transition, letting her discover her life as a zombie with another zombie, including the love interest side, so maybe she can get out of her zombie rut and find a way to incorporate the human side in her and the zombie side in her much more efficiently. I don't see Lowell and Liv lasting, because he's just there as a means to find herself and discover more about zombies. 

 

I think there is still time for her to find a romantic love interest who is not white. If this was season 2, then I would get the comments. But it's so early on, and not everyone has seen Veronica Mars, so it's kind of hard to say that the creator of the show has a pattern when presumably, this is his second show, like you guys are stating. Maybe it is a pattern, and maybe he'll do something different. 

[Cranberry]

Also, someone mentioned earlier in the thread that Rob Thomas couldn't have Veronica Mars date a POC; the network forbade it. If that's true (I haven't read that myself, so I don't have a source, but would be interested to read more about it if someone has a link), this so-called pattern may not be his choice at all.

[FurryFury]

I know that they forbade Duncan being really her brother, but I've only heard rumors about them not letting her date Wallace (which may not be what RT actually wanted, but just them putting the kibosh on it from the get-go because he didn't fit their LI type). Who knows. From in-story reasons, I really can't see her dating either Wallace or Weevil anyway, so I don't care much.

 

I could absolutely see Liv and Clive going there moreso than Liv/Ravi, but honestly I see these two more as partners than anything and that's ok too. Clive looks like he's a lot older, not that age is particularly a problem, but he also seems like he wouldn't be a good fit for Liv. He also does not know Liv well enough for them to be a couple right now.

 

I don't want Liv/Clive, full stop. Age matters for me, and also completely subjectively, I just don't consider him attractive. With Ravi, could go either way, I suppose (he's way cuter to me and I like his character much better).

Edited April 19, 2015 by FurryFury

[BPOX]

I did a quick search on when the actors were born, because I don't think we know in story ages:

 

Buckley - aka Major born 1981

Goodwin- aka Clive born 1982

Kohli - Ravi  1985

McIver - Liv  1988

 

You're more than welcome to ship who you like to ship, but the gap isn't that bothersome with any of these actors in my book. As a shallow aside, I encourage you and fans seeking eye candy to image search Rahul Kohli. You will not be disappointed.

[FurryFury]

I don't really find any of them especially attractive, attractiveness-wise Bradley James is the hottest one by far, and Clive the least. But Ravi's cute too. Major's just too bland for me to care about his looks, I fall asleep while he's on screen.

And also, when the lead of the show is younger than you are (McIver for me), I guess it's time to realize you're really old. :(

[Julia]

Imagine, then, when she's in the same age group as your kid.

[riley702]

As a shallow aside, I encourage you and fans seeking eye candy to image search Rahul Kohli. You will not be disappointed.

Hot damn! *fans myself* Thank you!

[Eneya]

That was the weirdest complaint EVER.

"Oh, no... she is treated like a human being by men, who don't automatically treat her like a sex-object while being POC... THE RACISM!!!".

It sounds problematic to me... are you trying to say that the only reason POC WOLDN'T hit on her will be if due to racism barring POC showing an interes in a white person? What?

 

Also, damn, I don't date all of my friends/have sexual/emotional interest in all of my friends (reglardless if male or female) who happen to be POC and the other way around. I think I am in the majority actually.

 

Why the hell should the show SHOULD become darker? If you want gritty, so many shows are gritty, also, ahem... I do reccommend Daredevil but why should this one be gritty or overly dark? I am already bored out of my skull from way too many shows going for "gritty" and "realistic" (read, overly sexist, racist and etc.) masking as "authentic/realistic/gritty", I do enjoy a show in which stories are cool and manage not to make me feel as if I am watching the news, thank you very much.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Eneya

[Sakura12]

Agreed, I like that this show has some dark stuff, (dead bodies) but it has some humor too. While I enjoy some of those dark and gritty shows, I want so light shows to balance everything out. That's why I'm loving this show. I stopped watching a show this season because it was getting to dark and depressing, there was nothing fun about it anymore.

 

I hope iZombie stays on the lighter side. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Sakura12

[FurryFury]

I would like some clarification from the mods, please - should we use this thread as an all-purpose "Relationships on the show" thread? Or should it be more "Racial, gender, sexuality issues" like in The Flash forum? Because as it is, it's use is somewhat unclear.

[Cranberry]

I think it was intended more as the latter; dohe can clarify. If someone's got an idea for a clearer title, suggest away!

[FurryFury]

I would love it if someone created a relationship thread, then (sadly, I have a huge problem with punny titles - I'd say it's me not being a native speaker that's the root of the issue, but unfortunately I have the same problem in my native language, so I guess I just suck in general).

Edited April 22, 2015 by FurryFury

[riley702]

I'd have to agree this show has a good mix of... atmosphere, for lack of a better word. The mix of gore, humor and feels reminds me of Buffy and it's a combo I like very much. There are plenty of deadly serious shows, there are plenty of "Oh, the angst!" shows and there are plenty of comedies. Remember Millennium? At first, I really liked it, but after a while, it was just so unrelentingly bleak that I had to bail. I don't want this show to go there.

Edited April 22, 2015 by riley702

[dohe]

I think it was intended more as the latter; dohe can clarify. If someone's got an idea for a clearer title, suggest away!

Demarcation is the act of setting a boundary that limits something.  For example, a show having it's POC males there to be pals/sidekicks/partners in solving crime with the white female lead with no romantic attraction hinted at while the same white female lead shows romantic interest in multiple white males is the boundary in question.     Particularly when the show runner has done this before. 

[Watcher0363]

I would like some clarification from the mods, please - should we use this thread as an all-purpose "Relationships on the show" thread? Or should it be more "Racial, gender, sexuality issues" like in The Flash forum? Because as it is, it's use is somewhat unclear.

 

 

I think it was intended more as the latter; dohe can clarify. If someone's got an idea for a clearer title, suggest away!

 

 

Demarcation is the act of setting a boundary that limits something.  For example, a show having it's POC males there to be pals/sidekicks/partners in solving crime with the white female lead with no romantic attraction hinted at while the same white female lead shows romantic interest in multiple white males is the boundary in question.     Particularly when the show runner has done this before. 

Dohe. He or she had an idea for a subject matter and a thread, He or she created a title, then he or she laid out their thoughts on the subject. So hopefully others would join in the subject or not. Is the policy going to be that thread names are changed because some posters can not fully grasp the subject of the thread? If so let us know now, that all creativity is subject to the voting plurality of the masses. What happen to letting a thread die or live on its on merits. If this thread lives on page one or dies on page X. Should be a testament to both the creative title and subject matter of the thread.

 

Dohe, I liked your title and the subject of your thread. I must admit that I think it is some what premature given the youth of the series. But I have not seen VM, so that colors my opinion to a degree. I think if this show gets renewed your thread will either live or die on where they take Liv and others love lives on the show. If they take it in the direction of my family tree your thread will become irrelevant and die on page X. Which would make me so happy. I love diversity in wedding photos, but that is just me.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Watcher0363

[Cranberry]

Sometimes if a thread starts out too specific and the discussion expands, we'll change the title to make it more general. I agree that this one is generating a good deal of discussion on the current topic, so I'll leave it as is and start a general relationships topic.

 

Also, if you have questions about how moderation works, it's best to PM a mod or send in a report (which will be seen by the entire moderation team) instead of asking policy questions on the thread itself. We like to avoid cluttering threads with shop talk.

[twoods]

I don't base the shows I like on the ethnicity of the characters, or if POC get certain roles. I like them on character interaction and friendships. I never thought once that Clive or Ravi are meant for Liv because their relationship is just awesome how it is. And I never noticed, or care, that her love interests are currently white. I go by chemistry, and she is hot with Lowell. I love Iris and Barry on the Flash not because he's a white lead and she is a POC, but because I think they have a great dynamic. I just don't get what the big deal is.

[Eneya]

Well, actually there IS a lot of racism in how relationships and gender and especially race is portrayed in TV land, that IS true... however, the way this was presented here was missing the point so much...

[Leesifer]

Wow!   I usually love reading forums about the shows I watch but this thread is ridiculous.

 

It hadn't even occurred to me that Liv should be romantically involved with either Ravi or Clive.  In fact, I don't think it would work if she did get romantic with either of them.

 

Why can't we have characters who are very good friends/work together/have chemistry without them becoming romantically involved with each other?

 

Unless it's truly perceived that the writers are racist then i really don't see that there is a problem with this show.

[BPOX]

We will no doubt have plenty of characters who are just friends, but it's also clear Liv will have a love life. Why is it so strange to have a preference on which characters this might include? And are you really stating there is not some unstated assumptions on who might be likely in TV land to be in the running?

And yes at least one poster thinks there is a history with the show runner in this direction. I am more optimistic myself but would love to see either Clive or Ravi in a ship.

Edited April 23, 2015 by BPOX

[Chris Gains]

In my opinion internal character traits are the most important factors when writers decide who they’ll pair in a romantic relationship.  In my opinion, Liv is compassionate, intelligent, driven and physically attractive.  Therefore, I would like her to be paired with someone with similar traits.  Race be damned. 
Now what would piss me off is if the writers paired a kind soul like Liv with a sociopath/murderer like Blaine.  In fact, I would quit watching the show if they get involved.  I’m so sick of writers having a so-called good girl fall for the bad boy.  Such women are not really good.  Deep down, such women are scum bags just like the evil men they lust for.

 

I’m still not over Veronica Mars getting involved with Logan.

[BPOX]

Now what would piss me off is if the writers paired a kind soul like Liv with a sociopath/murderer like Blaine.  In fact, I would quit watching the show if they get involved.  I’m so sick of writers having a so-called good girl fall for the bad boy.  Such women are not really good.  Deep down, such women are scum bags just like the evil men they lust for.

 

I’m still not over Veronica Mars getting involved with Logan.

Tell us how you really feel.

 

My attitude on the "bad boy" archetype is it's a bit like shows about high school. Presentations of high schools usually aren't realistic, ridiculously exaggerated in fact, but they kind of feel right emotionally. That time is all fraught and caught up with status and identity questions. So your jock prom king in show is ridiculous, but viewers kind of remember worrying about the social totem pole.

 

Well, your drama bad boy is a guy who acts all aggressive but is a bit wounded inside. So getting past some guys exterior and getting to know him but you still feel like he doesn't always treat you right... It feels like something that a lot of women have experienced, just more dramatized.

 

Anyhow, it's not usually my favorite trope either. I tend to go with the long burning friendship stories more, but Logan and Veronica... That was good.  To me it was an appropriate for the film noir call back to the ever present femme fatale arc type in the sort of detective stories that show referenced. Then it later it was overdone, but still.

 

I checked Archive of our Own for fan fic, out of curiosity. So far lots of Blaine and lots of Ravi. So for the proto fandom, seems like still an open question yet.

[Featherhat]

I certainly agree that there I still unfortunately a lot of racism that goes into couples on TV. I think this show is possibly beginning to explore what a POC who has been turned into a Zombie might look like in the Chief (a possible problematic issue re degrees of pigmentation in different ethnicities of Zombie but not something they should shy a way from either).

Robert Buckley was probably cast because he was a OTH veteran and yes the type they were looking for. Handsome, reasonably intelligent, "perfect" and willing to be in Liv's life after she "brutally2 dumped him.

That said I can only recall Parminder Nagra as a British Asian Doctor on ER and she's now on The Blacklist, so Rahul Kholi by being on US TV as a British Indian who isn't a USTV stereotype is interesting, especially as his character wouldn't be rare IRL. Yes he's the sidekick so far but he's more interesting than Major. I never want them to hook up because I love the dynamic they've establishd so far. They have level of truth that Liv has shown its difficult to maintain even with Lowell, although I hope that relationship will last a few more episodes because I've missed BJ and he's good as an intro Zombie relationship for Liv.

Blaine was paired with Liv in a few fans minds for 5 minutes in his first episode. I can't imagine anyone who has any hopes of her long term sanity and goodness thinks they would do well together now. He's a killer pure and simple and they aren't going Spuffy so early on.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Featherhat

[CinnamonCat]

I’m so sick of writers having a so-called good girl fall for the bad boy.  Such women are not really good.  Deep down, such women are scum bags just like the evil men they lust for.

 

There are many reasons people fall for someone bad (for them or in general), and inherent scumbaggery is, I'd say, very low on the list.

 

As for the bad boy archetype, I personally love it most of the time, but I get how it can be too much for some people.  Still, I don't see Liv entering that kind of a relationship, because she's essentially a goody-two-shoes with an edge, and I think she'd gravitate toward someone similar. 

[Julia]

There are many reasons people fall for someone bad (for them or in general), and inherent scumbaggery is, I'd say, very low on the list.

 

As for the bad boy archetype, I personally love it most of the time, but I get how it can be too much for some people.  Still, I don't see Liv entering that kind of a relationship, because she's essentially a goody-two-shoes with an edge, and I think she'd gravitate toward someone similar.

I think more than enjoying the thrill in a lot of cases it has to do with wanting to fix them, which Liz has already been shown by what happened to her friend she can't do.

I did get a fresh appreciation for pre-zombie Liz not thinking twice about marrying a poorly-paid social worker. Even if she was single-mindedly careerist, apparently she wasn't all about the money.

[XtremeOne1]

Demarcation is the act of setting a boundary that limits something.  For example, a show having it's POC males there to be pals/sidekicks/partners in solving crime with the white female lead with no romantic attraction hinted at while the same white female lead shows romantic interest in multiple white males is the boundary in question.     Particularly when the show runner has done this before. 

 

Yes those who TWO males are definitely a worrisome pattern. Fans saw into the Blaine/Liv pairing but Liv seemed pretty put off by him a minute into meeting him.

 

If the show does pair her with Blaine, it's game over....But I doubt they would. 

 

My only issue..Rob Thomas tends to listen to the loud fandom(hence why LoVe eclipsed Veronica Mars)...so yeah..

Edited April 24, 2015 by XtremeOne1

[dohe]

I don't base the shows I like on the ethnicity of the characters, or if POC get certain roles. I like them on character interaction and friendships. I never thought once that Clive or Ravi are meant for Liv because their relationship is just awesome how it is. And I never noticed, or care, that her love interests are currently white. I go by chemistry, and she is hot with Lowell. I love Iris and Barry on the Flash not because he's a white lead and she is a POC, but because I think they have a great dynamic. I just don't get what the big deal is.

 

 

Wow!   I usually love reading forums about the shows I watch but this thread is ridiculous.

 

It hadn't even occurred to me that Liv should be romantically involved with either Ravi or Clive.  In fact, I don't think it would work if she did get romantic with either of them.

 

Why can't we have characters who are very good friends/work together/have chemistry without them becoming romantically involved with each other?

 

Unless it's truly perceived that the writers are racist then i really don't see that there is a problem with this show.

This may not be the strongest analogy. I will still give it a try. I am reminded of criticism of Cameron and Mitchell's not kissing - while straight couples did - on Modern Family.  There was criticism of a double standard but there was also criticism of those criticizing that double standard.  I remember the retort of so do you think the writer are homophobic as if criticism of what appeared to me and others to be a double standard meant an accusation of the writers having a personal gripe against gay men. 

 

Criticizing an element of a show in terms of it's handling of race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion does not necessarily mean an accusation of prejudice.  I have not seen any posts here stating the writers are racist.

 

Getting a show on television is difficult.  Doing one's best to make sure that show is not cancelled is difficult.  One goal is to reach as big an audience as possible for that show so it stays on the air.   That does not mean that the show's handling of it's POC men in relation to the white female lead should go unquestioned. 

 

There are questions I am fascinated by.  If the race of the characters was determined during the writing, why did the show decide the two platonic male friends of Liv would be POC while the love interests would be white males?  If race was not predetermined during the writing but it was predetermined that Ravi and Clive would be platonic friends of Liv, did this affect casting?  Did the show change the relationships of Ravi and Clive to Liv upon casting? 

 

If Bradley James played Ravi the same style as Rahul Kohli, would the I hope they will just stay friends* comments die off substantially?  If Robert Buckley played Clive in the same style as Malcolm Goodwin, would the I hope they maintain a professional relationship comments die off substantially?  If either Kohli or Goodwin played Lowell, would as many audience members immediately ship Lowell and Liv?  Show runners are aware of how audiences can gravitate to certain romances.  It is a fair concern, considering Veronica Mars and now this show's set up with POC male characters, to question if the show runner, in taking into consideration how people can respond differently to POC male/white female couples** in contrast to white male/white female couples, was purposeful in the use of POC male characters on the show.

 

This is a show of diverse characters when it comes to race.  As with Modern Family's representation of gay men, the show can be applauded for it's diversity but criticized when it comes to how some characters are depicted. 

 

*The I like them just as they are/why can't they just be friends responses are always fascinating. 

**Why do so many people react differently to POC male/white female romances than they do white male/POC female romances?  I have my thoughts but don't want to get off the topic.   

Edited April 25, 2015 by dohe

[BPOX]

Criticizing an element of a show in terms of it's handling of race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion does not necessarily mean an accusation of prejudice.  I have not seen any posts here stating the writers are racist.

 

The way I see it is it is more about exploring the rules of what is considered accepted on TV than some sort of accusation that the writers, producers, or audience are the sort of aggressively bigoted jerks it is easy to label racist.

 

There are questions I am fascinated by. If the race of the characters was determined during the writing, why did the show decide the two platonic male friends of Liv would be POC while the love interests would be white males?

 

At the risk of becoming repetitive, it seems to me the show is working with themes about widening Liv's tunnel vision. Her before life doesn't seem to include significant POC so far. It might be coincidence, and they may announce that they simply used color blind casting. I doubt they did with Liv herself. The joke that zombies look like super pale goths seems pretty baked in to the premise.

 

If the race of the characters was determined during the writing, why did the show decide the two platonic male friends of Liv would be POC while the love interests would be white males?

 

I tend toward the thought that Lowell seems attractive right now partially because he seems like a zombified version of the familiar. A way to accept a little change but also have what she feels like she lost. Being white is default normal, being a musician is something that would have been cool and a little edgy but not that uncommon in college.

 

But lets say we got into Clive's world more as time goes on. We don't know his back-story, but the general environment he's in is different. When we talk about police, 25% to 30% have four-year degrees. (yes I linked USA Today, sue me). So Clive's world (if not his origins) is a lot more blue collar that I sense Liv's has been.

 

Ravi is foreign, yes I know British isn't that foreign, but British Asian is it's own dynamic.

 

Anyway, my point is that growing either of these characters in terms of backstory, friends etc has the potential to widen Liv's sphere a bit more. Mind you actually working in a hospital should do so too, and I haven't talked much about Major's work as a social worker which has similar potential.  That doesn't say any of these character have to be shipped, but I tend to want to ship the most interesting characters.

if the show runner, in taking into consideration how people can respond differently to POC male/white female couples** in contrast to white male/white female couples, was purposeful in the use of POC male characters on the show.

 

What do you mean?

 

*The I like them just as they are/why can't they just be friends responses are always fascinating.

It makes the most sense to me in a partner show, where the argument is don't cloud the working relationship, people should have lives outside of work and be able to work with folks. Not every interaction should be about sex. There is a context where it's about subverting a trope. I don't get it as much in a more ensemble context with lots of important players. People pair up on TV, and that's part of the fun.

 

**Why do so many people react differently to POC male/white female romances than they do white male/POC female romances?  I have my thoughts but don't want to get off the topic.

Yeah, that seems like it could be a wide ranging topic, but I'm curious what you mean. I'm guessing maybe you are suggesting that you are implying a variety of women on the way to the great white OTP would be fine if Liv were a male?

[XtremeOne1]

*The I like them just as they are/why can't they just be friends responses are always fascinating

 

 

Why? Why are you making this a race thing? 

 

I want Barry and Caitlin(two white people) to remain friends and Barry and Iris to get together. I wanted Felicity and Oliver, to just remain friends. To me, where a friendship is developed, I hate when shippers come in and try to transform it into so something it isn't.I really feel you're implying 'Oh people don't want to see a PoC/White' couple friendship develop beyond that', but that isn't the case. We're six episodes into the show and maybe we don't want a Ravi/Liv friendship morph into some angsty romance. As for Clive/Liv, I like their friendship but I wouldn't say no to a romance in the future...if it develops that way and if it feels natural. Right now, they're both learning to accept each other(and Liv is lying to him constantly...). 

 

But I never want a Liv/Ravi as a couple because I love them as friends. They have great chemistry together and why would I want that to go the way of some many others couples who's relationships were ruined because of shipping? I love platonic male/female friendships, we barely get enough of it anymore because of shippers. But it has nothing to do with an interracial relationships.

 

As for why the show went the way they did with casting..Well, as someone said Liv lived a boring, ordinary life, sheltered. She was supposed to be her overbearing mother's perfect daughter(which includes the handsome white boyfriend). But her life is changing. She's meeting other people. She's had one love interest so far. We should be celebrating this cast's diversity, not crying foul because they aren't objectifying Liv. 

[Cranberry]

I'm just not much of a shipper in general. I have enjoyed some romantic storylines, of course, but most of my favorite relationships on TV are platonic friendships. I mentioned some before... Sherlock and Joan Watson on Elementary are amazing, Peggy Carter and Jarvis (and Peggy and Angie) from Agent Carter are wonderful, I always loved Veronica Mars/Wallace and Veronica/Mac, Fitz and Simmons on Agents of SHIELD were great until the writers decided that Fitz was in love with Simmons, and my only Pretty Little Liars ship is the four main girls as supportive best friends. It has zero to do with race (or sexuality) for me in any of these cases. It's about not finding romantic storylines quite as interesting or fresh. It seems like writers always feel the need to inject drama into romantic storylines to attempt to make things interesting, and there's only so much betrayal/cheating/stupid misunderstandings I can handle before I want the two people far away from each other. Writers tend to do less of that crap with friendship storylines; there are some minor issues, but I can usually believe that the people would make up and remain friends.

[dohe]

What do you mean?

 

If a person is a show runner and their desire is to get as big an audience as possible to watch the show and the show has a white female lead, is even the most open-minded show runner knowingly going to go with white males for her love interests so a bigger audience gravitates to the show and also as not to lose viewers who do not respond well to white female leads dating POC males. 

  It makes the most sense to me in a partner show, where the argument is don't cloud the working relationship, people should have lives outside of work and be able to work with folks. Not every interaction should be about sex. There is a context where it's about subverting a trope. I don't get it as much in a more ensemble context with lots of important players. People pair up on TV, and that's part of the fun.

 

With it being an ensemble like this, as with Veronica Mars, it does raise questions.  While the I hope they just stay friends angle is used in various ways, I find it is very commonly used when there is potential of a POC male/white female coupling.  Because Clive and Ravi are working with Liv, it makes it harder to get a grasp on.  That is why I ask if Ravi was played by Bradley James would we see a I love their dynamic as is/I hope they just stay friends as much response.  I am highly doubtful of that. 

Yeah, that seems like it could be a wide ranging topic, but I'm curious what you mean. I'm guessing maybe you are suggesting that you are implying a variety of women on the way to the great white OTP would be fine if Liv were a male?

 

I think if Liv was a POC female or if Liv was a white male, concerns about audience reaction to interracial romance would probably significantly decline.  The double standard in reactions when it comes to film and tv depiction of a white male in an interracial romance with a POC female in comparison to a POC male in an interracial romance with a white female is nothing new.  There is something about the white female lead dating POC males which tends to cause interesting reactions.  I wish show runners everywhere had more faith.  While I know people who didn't care for Brad and Jane on Happy Endings, overall the response was positive. 

Edited April 26, 2015 by dohe

[BPOX]

Why? Why are you making this a race thing? 

 

Well, this is a race thing thread. I dare say most of the time not liking shipping is absolutely not a race thing with most people. It's just in the context of saying why the white guys and why not the POC it's not a sufficient explanation of why lead character interracial romances are so rare.

 

That is why I ask if Ravi was played by Bradley James would we see a I love their dynamic as is/I hope they just stay friends as much response.  I am highly doubtful of that.

 

I'm not sure there would be significantly less voices arguing against shipping. I tend to think you'd just have more dissenting shippers arguing the contrary. A lot of shipping is about who the shipper finds cute. That includes a lot of factors, but I and Hello Cupid think there are definitely racial patterns in who we'll consider as a romantic partner as well. So if it's not doing it for you for whatever reason, you're more likely to agree with  or at least not remark on the sentiment.

 

That said, I do want to add that my foray into Google was enlightening and I feel like Ravi is costumed pretty much like the male version of the sexy librarian right now and instead of taking off the glasses and shaking down the hair we are one shave and a tuxedo or towel scene away from a little more audience enthusiasm.

 

I still like Clive though. When he said he would be good in a zombie apocalypse and wouldn't trust anyone, then later he was skeptical but growing accepting of Liv... Well I just think that would be fun conflict to watch develop as a romance.

Edited April 26, 2015 by BPOX

[Julia]

The way I see it is it is more about exploring the rules of what is considered accepted on TV than some sort of accusation that the writers, producers, or audience are the sort of aggressively bigoted jerks it is easy to label racist.

I guess I've been interrogating the text from the wrong perspective, then, because I took

 

This is a show with multiple POC males and multiple white males. To have the multiple POC males disqualified as potential love interests for the white female lead while having multiple white males as love interests for the white female lead is not something that should be shrugged away with rationalizations. Why is it better for one of the POC males to be one of the love interests? Because it demonstrates an openness to interracial romance instead of promoting, unknowingly or not, a shutting down of that route.

and the discussion on demarcation as a suggestion that the writers had made a conscious race-based choice to make the POC sexless and marginal which shouldn't be "shrugged away with rationalization."

I also saw this framing of why it's inherently problematic that Clive and Ravi are not, within the first five episodes, love interests

 

Why is it important to me that the POC be three dimensional characters, not restricted to playing asexual sidekicks, victims, and criminals, while the white characters fill all types of roles, especially the most developed ones, and are allowed to have love interests (whether that's the main character or not)? I can't understand why that is even a question anyone could form in their mind,l et alone be unable to answer. It's because it's insultingly racist and I find it alienating and distasteful to see POC reduced to stereotypes. If other people don't notice, don't mind, or actively prefer it, I could ask them why that is as easily as they can ask me why I do notice and it does bother me.

as a suggestion that both the writers' choices with those characters and anyone who doesn't have a problem with the writers' choices are insultingly racist, alienating and distasteful.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Julia

[jhlipton]

There was an interesting discussion of "romantic tropes" for white women vs women of color in the Sleepy Hollow threads.  White female leads almost always have romantic relationships; Women of color don't have them as often (on Empire, Cookie has a dysfunctional relationship with Luscious, on Scandal, Olivia has a dysfunctional relationship with Fitz; and on HTGAWM, Anna had a dysfunctional relationship with her husband and with her "boy-toy";   On Sleepy Hollow, Abbie hasn't had a romantic relationship at all.)

 

If Liv was played by a person of color, I wonder if she would be dating Lowell or anyone else...

[Julia]

There was an interesting discussion of "romantic tropes" for white women vs women of color in the Sleepy Hollow threads.  White female leads almost always have romantic relationships; Women of color don't have them as often (on Empire, Cookie has a dysfunctional relationship with Luscious, on Scandal, Olivia has a dysfunctional relationship with Fitz; and on HTGAWM, Anna had a dysfunctional relationship with her husband and with her "boy-toy";   On Sleepy Hollow, Abbie hasn't had a romantic relationship at all.)

 

If Liv was played by a person of color, I wonder if she would be dating Lowell or anyone else...

JMO, Ichabod's relationship with Katrina is one of the most stupid, dysfunctional, annoying relationships on TV. They have no chemistry, I don't see anything which would draw him to her, and it annoys me that they privilege pretty much anything over the obvious friendship chemistry between Ichabod and Abbie.

That said, Abbie has had a romantic relationship, with her former partner, which she threw over because she wasn't in the market, bless her heart.

[Minneapple]

Iris on the Flash has been in a functional relationship. Also she's part of the probable endgame Barry/Iris pairing on the show. Which is pretty rare when you think about it.

Well I just think that would be fun conflict to watch develop as a romance.

Except for if she zombified him and had to live with the guilt. If he became a zombie through no fault of hers, that's another story.

[Watcher0363]

Forcing me out of lurkdom as I try to fade away. Lowell can not sing on stage or jump out of an airplane without slipping into full on zombie mode. If Liv has any type of sexual game. There goes the sheets, the bed, the whole damn room. Liv's best sexual partner may be electrical in nature, something Samantha would have a hard time breaking.

Edited April 26, 2015 by Watcher0363

[BPOX]

Larry Niven wrote Man of Steel Woman of Kleenex about Superman and Lois Lane in 1969, 31 years into Clark Kent's and Lois Lane's unconsummated romance. They kept it G rated up until 1980, 41 years of blue balls. Then 17 more years to 1997 when they decided it could happen without taking away his powers. This show should get so lucky.

[Featherhat]

If Ravi was played by Bradley James, then maybe there would be more tumblrs dedicated to them being together, based on the subconscious assumptions TV has trained audiences to, in certain cases. That doesn't make it any more viable as a relationship Vs Friendship from where I am. They're my favourite pairing as they are, becoming romantic would only curb their banter. Ravi is central to the show. Liv literally couldn't do this without him, right now Liv's actually love interests could be cut out of the show and we'd still have the story.

If she and Clive could develop something, but she would need to start being a lot more honest for it to happen, and I go back and forth between him being "ok it all makes sense now" and completely freaking out in his reaction. I don't want her back together with Major for the same reason (and he is dull). I wouldn't be surprised if we got a Clive backstory episode late in the season or early next season (former partner issues, unresolved case cliché etc) but until he knows more he's always got a barrier between him and Liv as friends or lovers (and partners).

The show did actually touch on a serious part racial/economic issue this last episode. Clive's whole subplot was the fact that the police "officially" didn't give a shit about the dozens of homeless mostly black kids going missings vs the already dead white girl who got multiple press conferences. What they don't know is that the (Asian) Lieutenant is a zombie who has reasons to cover it up. That seems to show that the writers aren't unaware of the issues. How this relates to Liv's Love life we don't know.

[kieyra]

JMO, Ichabod's relationship with Katrina is one of the most stupid, dysfunctional, annoying relationships on TV. They have no chemistry, I don't see anything which would draw him to her, and it annoys me that they privilege pretty much anything over the obvious friendship chemistry between Ichabod and Abbie.That said, Abbie has had a romantic relationship, with her former partner, which she threw over because she wasn't in the market, bless her heart.

Have you see the finale?

i ask because you refer to Katrina in the present tense. Things got better.

[Julia]

Moved from episode thread

Meanwhile somehow Ravi has failed to show any interest in Liv but immediately falls for Peyton. Why? Well see Peyton is a recurring character who is barely on the show so the possibility of screentime for an interracial romance can be minimized as much as possible.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that an even more effective way to minimalize screentime for interracial romance would be to not have one of the most popular characters on the show pursue one in episode eight of the first season.

ETA Kieyra, I have now. You made my day with that.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Julia