supposebly April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 I do wonder how Metatron disappeared so fast. I wondered that too. The magic of the demon tablet? Link to comment
catrox14 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 Okay I have a bone to pick with an otherwise wonderful episode. Charlie said "She's never seen anything like it". Okay that is total BS. How much would Charlie have ever seen of this kind of lore. It's not like she's been a hunter her entire life. Man, that's some serious character propping with unearned dialogue. Bleh. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 (edited) I didn't mind that Dean stood up for himself but I also thought he already did that in s9 when he separated himself from Sam. And when Sam told him he lied and Dean said "I'm proud of us" in s9 finale. It felt like it was just Dean being mean for no discernible reason. Oh well. Not a huge thing but was odd I thought. Oh I am so dumb I just got Sam saying exactly what Dean said in the pilot. That he doesn't want to do it alone. Well shit. This feels like a retcon and I don't know why! But yes, overall, especially upon rewatch...this was pretty great episode if I pretend Charlie wasn't in it. #sorrynotsorry. Edited April 17, 2015 by catrox14 1 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 Isn't Metatron the scribe of God? Why would he need to take the demon tablet that he transcribed? Has it been established that the tablet is powerful even if no one can read it? I thought that is why he got rid of all the prophets... Maybe the tablet is powerful, but I think you have to be an angel? Or Metatron himself while an angel? Because when Metatron was an angel, he was getting power from the angel tablet. That's what made him so strong, and it wasn't until Castiel found and smashed the tablet that Metatron went backing to being just a regular angel. Now theoretically it should be that the demon tablet should take a demon to "run," but Crowley couldn't get power from it, so it might just be an angel or specifically Metatron as an angel that could do it. Whatever Castiel does, he better keep Metatron's grace under heavy lock and key - as in hide it in Rowena's cleavage or something - where Metatron would never think to look, because really bad things are gonna happen I think if he gets it back. I'm also confused about Sam's change of heart. He loves to hunt now? And can't live without Dean? When did this happen again? I guess I can fanwank about his realization that he couldn't lose Dean after all, but when did he develop this love for hunting?? At some point between not completing the trials, being possessed, and his brother being cursed, he decided "hey this is an awesome gig after all"? For me, it happened pretty much starting at the end of season 2 through to season 7 - with the exception of soulless Sam, and maybe, arguable season 4, though for me as I hinted at before, I think season 4 Sam partially happened because of Sam's not being able to live without Dean and his getting too damaged after Dean died and/or trying to deny it. As for hunting, I don't know about loving it per se, but Sam certainly seemed to think it was worth it and/or it was what kept him together since season 2. When Sam was distressed in any way, hunting - and hunting with Dean especially (when possible) - was what he seemed to turn to again and again. Even soulless Sam was yay hunting! So that had to be somewhat ingrained as a "good" thing in Sam's brain. Are we just going to reset him to Season 7, and pretend the 8-9 didn't happen? I'm glad we got some POV, but I found it reeeally jarring. Sounds like a great idea to me. I found season 8 Sam to be the jarring one, and since there was - at least in my opinion - no real attempt to explain his changes in attitude in that season or to an extent in season 9, I'm not all that upset they're going back to a Sam who to me makes much more sense and is more rooted in his previous and much longer character history (5 or 6 seasons vs the past 2). If they want to reset Sam back to season 7, I'll gladly give them the pass and be thankful for it. I didn't mind that Dean stood up for himself but I also thought he already did that in s9 when he separated himself from Sam. And when Sam told him he lied and Dean said "I'm proud of us" in s9 finale. It felt like it was just Dean being mean for no discernible reason. Oh well. Not a huge thing but was odd I thought. As I said above, it's a character trait the current writers decided to keep, I guess. Dean doesn't have too many character flaws like this, but getting in a dig like that ever now and then is one of them. Besides the season 8 finale thing, I think the last one I found really meow-worthy was the "Abandon All Hope" one. I was like "ouch, Dean. Really? This could be your last night on earth with your brother and you decide to throw that dig out there?" If I were Sam, I would've thrown an epic bitchface rather than giving an abashed "Thank you again for your continued support" and clinking bottles with him. The Madison dig in "Sex and Violence" wasn't very nice either, but at least there Dean had an excuse of being frustrated, and Sam said much worse stuff later in the episode while under the influence. The "Abandon All Hope" one just seemed to come flying out of nowhere, though. As I also said, I appreciate Dean has some flaws, but this is one I wouldn't mind him growing out of... unless maybe it's an indication of Dean breaking down, being over stressed, or something like that. Like he just gets all of this self-questioning commentary in his head, and he lashes out in response. Oh I am so dumb I just got Sam saying exactly what Dean said in the pilot. That he doesn't want to do it alone. Well shit. This feels like a retcon and I don't know why! I might call it more of a throwback than a retcon? Season 7 Sam was getting pretty concerned and almost desperate when he thought Dean was giving up emotionally, and Dean's in even worse shape now with the mark threatening to turn him into a demon again. 1 Link to comment
Mybrainhurts April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 I read this in the recap: I'm not sure I needed the story about the nun who scraped many, many sheets of her skin off to create a nifty Book of the Damned, because now I can't stop thinking about it. I mean, it looked like a big book. Did she scrape all of her body or just pick one spot and wait for it to scab over? Was paper not available? Isn't skin hard to write on if you don't tan it first? I'd Google it but I'm afraid someone somewhere will put a red flag on my file and my passport will be rendered "exit only" or something. My crazy ass wife decided to look it up (since we're not doing any foreign travel any time soon, she wasn't worried about consequences) and supposedly there is a book out there bound in human skin which was taken from 20 square inches of a donor's back. Apparently, the person was happy and healthy even after the removal. Here is the link: http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/anthropodermic-bibliopegy-the-true-practice-of-binding-books-in-human-skin The more you know..... 1 Link to comment
Altered Reality April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 I am so not clicking on that link. Just saying! Filing this one under "things I never want to think about". 1 4 Link to comment
rue721 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 I couldn't stop thinking about the GIGANTIC book covered in human skin, either. I don't even understand how you would get a sheet of skin that size off of a person? How big is this skin-donor's back?! If they wanted to bind a book in my skin, the would have to be the size of a mass market paperback. POSSIBLY a a "quality softcover." :P Link to comment
LittleIggy April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 I wish monkey face Jumbotron would just go away for good. Can't stand that actor. Link to comment
catrox14 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 (edited) I couldn't stop thinking about the GIGANTIC book covered in human skin, either. I don't even understand how you would get a sheet of skin that size off of a person? How big is this skin-donor's back?! If they wanted to bind a book in my skin, the would have to be the size of a mass market paperback. POSSIBLY a a "quality softcover." :P I just think about this..."Moisturize me!" Edited April 17, 2015 by catrox14 3 Link to comment
rue721 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 I got a little shade of Dean thinking this is all his decision though. We aren't at end of season 9 levels of "my way or the highway" yet, but his "This is my cross to bear" for me is kind of heading down the road towards that. I laughed at "my cross to bear" because OMG could you BE more of a martyr, Dean? Seriously. He really is Sam's mother. First he comes out with the passive aggressive dig about how Sam wasn't dutiful enough (years ago at this point) and that it's such a ~surprise~ that Sam isn't just going to abandon him, and then he comes out with the bossiness and martyrdom. And last season, Dean was worrying about Sam being too skinny and telling Sam that he really wants him to settle down with a wife and house and regular colonoscopy appointments. They've been pretty consistent that Dean is totally Sam's mom. That's not their dynamic all the time, I mean obviously they're brothers, best friends, etc, too. But sometimes Dean comes out with the MOST stereotypical "mom" stuff. I actually love it because it's so random/weird. And because, a fair amount of the time, Sam totally treats him like he's his mom, too. LOL. Oh I am so dumb I just got Sam saying exactly what Dean said in the pilot. That he doesn't want to do it alone. Well shit. This feels like a retcon and I don't know why! It doesn't feel like a retcon to me, though of course YMMV. I thought that Sam's explanation to Charlie made a lot of sense (I mean the explanation about how he'd kept thinking to himself "just one more job, just one more job," and about Jess, and about eventually realizing that he wasn't just waiting for his life to start, that this *was* his life and -- and that he was pretty content with it). That was all consistent with what I had more or less figured had been going on with Sam, though it was *great* imo to hear Sam's take on it! 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 (edited) What is that!?! What is that!?! Ahhhh! Is this payback for me postulating that soulless Dean scenario? Because that up there is just so, so wrong... Edited to add: Seriously, catrox, that thing is creepy. Edited April 17, 2015 by AwesomO4000 1 Link to comment
catrox14 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 (edited) I laughed at "my cross to bear" because OMG could you BE more of a martyr, Dean? Seriously. But it is his cross to bear. Almost literally. I don't think that's really being a martyr. YMMV. I thought that Sam's explanation to Charlie made a lot of sense (I mean the explanation about how he'd kept thinking to himself "just one more job, just one more job," and about Jess, and about eventually realizing that he wasn't just waiting for his life to start, that this *was* his life and -- and that he was pretty content with it). That was all consistent with what I had more or less figured had been going on with Sam, though it was *great* imo to hear Sam's take on it! For me that came out of left field because I don't think show was building to this at all. It's been more that Sam just accepted his fate. Not that he has come to loving the work. Because if he loved the work, it wouldn't matter if Dean was doing it with him or not. I think that's why it feels borderline retcon to me. Edited April 17, 2015 by catrox14 Link to comment
bethy April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 Sounds like a great idea to me. I found season 8 Sam to be the jarring one, and since there was - at least in my opinion - no real attempt to explain his changes in attitude in that season or to an extent in season 9, I'm not all that upset they're going back to a Sam who to me makes much more sense and is more rooted in his previous and much longer character history (5 or 6 seasons vs the past 2). If they want to reset Sam back to season 7, I'll gladly give them the pass and be thankful for it. Amen. With a few exceptions, I'd be happy to erase seasons 8 and 9 from my brain. I wasn't bothered by Dean's comment. Old resentments come up sometimes even when we've tried to forgive and move on. And I think that particular comment from Sam was one that wounded Dean deeply in a place that he doesn't acknowledge very often. So I can understand why that hurt would come to the surface given this specific situation. Plus - and this isn't meant to be a slap at Sam as a character, but more at TV writing generally - did Sam ever actually say the words, "I'm sorry"? I may have missed it because I spent most of the last two seasons annoyed, but I don't remember that. It struck me recently that people on TV don't seem to say those specific words much. I was watching a show the other day where one of the characters had behaved pretty badly and while it was clear she WAS sorry, what she said was, "I can't change the past, but I can do better in the future" or something along those lines. And I thought, "Why did the writers choose not to have her say, 'I'm sorry'?" Do people not say that anymore? Am I old fashioned to expect that? Is it meant to maintain tension? I don't know. I find it odd. [/strange rant] 2 Link to comment
Altered Reality April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 Oh ack! catrox14 Cassandra is so not something I needed to see first thing this morning. Before breakfast even :D 1 Link to comment
catrox14 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 (edited) LOL, #sorrynotsorry for the Cassandra post. The other option was Buffalo Bill..."It puts the lotion in the basket"..... Edited April 17, 2015 by catrox14 1 Link to comment
catrox14 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 (edited) Not sure why that double posted...sorry Edited April 17, 2015 by catrox14 Link to comment
catrox14 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 Amen. With a few exceptions, I'd be happy to erase seasons 8 and 9 from my brain. I wasn't bothered by Dean's comment. Old resentments come up sometimes even when we've tried to forgive and move on. And I think that particular comment from Sam was one that wounded Dean deeply in a place that he doesn't acknowledge very often. So I can understand why that hurt would come to the surface given this specific situation. Plus - and this isn't meant to be a slap at Sam as a character, but more at TV writing generally - did Sam ever actually say the words, "I'm sorry"? I may have missed it because I spent most of the last two seasons annoyed, but I don't remember that. It struck me recently that people on TV don't seem to say those specific words much. I was watching a show the other day where one of the characters had behaved pretty badly and while it was clear she WAS sorry, what she said was, "I can't change the past, but I can do better in the future" or something along those lines. And I thought, "Why did the writers choose not to have her say, 'I'm sorry'?" Do people not say that anymore? Am I old fashioned to expect that? Is it meant to maintain tension? I don't know. I find it odd. [/strange rant] I understand about resentments, but I figured the "I thought you were okay with this ", "Yeah well I lied" , "Well ain't that a bitch" exchange was their not!apologies to each other for what was done and said in s9. I'm starting to see s9 as The Year of "Doing What I Had To Do". Every character essentially said that at some point and they all suffered consequences and hurt people because "Doing what I had to do". Heck I suppose we could take it back to s8 if we wanted to think about Sam 'doing what he had to do" to take care of himself after Dean was zapped to Purgatory and left for dead. Then they both stopped the trials voluntarily which caused other problems. They were both right and both wrong in their choices and their reactions to their choices and IMO they have reached an impasse about the Gadreel incident. I don't think either will or necessarily even should say "I'm sorry" because if neither ever intends to change their choices going forward then apologies are meaningless and hollow between. I suppose that's why Dean bringing it up again is picking at me. Now, I thought of a head!canon this morning that maybe Dean bringing it up is ..maybe a sign that demon!Dean is trying come out....because it did seem more harsh and the look in Dean's eyes was cold. I mean Jensen's again with the perfect Ackting....had IMO a clear change of expression that wasn't just the normal Dean anger. But then maybe Dean was reacting in that way because of being messed up in the Book's vicinity. I dunno..it's bothersome LOL 1 Link to comment
Aeryn13 April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 I think the reason he brought it up was simply to create a narrative opening for Charlie to inqure about it later, give HER speech on hunterdom and then for Sam to give his speech. It`s probably for the same reason they find a case in the bunker, then drive six hours they - that we the audience don`t see - and only at their destination do they start discussing the case more to give the audience some exposition. Dean making that comment was an easy opening for the later dialogue. C ould this also have been done in several other ways? Of course. It wouldn`t be uncommon for Sam and Charlie to discuss both hunting, the life and especially Dean. That said, I didn`t mind it at all. For me, the Purge hasn`t propely been adressed and if that vague handwaving in the Season 9 Finale was supposed to be the resolution, it sucked ass, And heck, because Charlie lacks context, it`s not as if it got really adressed after all anyway. 3 Link to comment
DittyDotDot April 17, 2015 Share April 17, 2015 Okay, that felt like Supernatural...I think. Dean was very Dean and Sam was very Sam, at least. I felt like this episode was largely responding to fandom's not understanding of the show the last couple seasons, so they took a break to explain it to us. I kinda like seeing the actual POV, so I didn't mind it and I think they did it fairly well...overall though, the episode didn't do much for me. I've always understood where Sam and Dean were coming from, just didn't always like where they were coming from, if that makes any sense. In other news, Cass is back y'all! CASS IS BACK!!! Oh yeah, and Charlie didn't annoy me...too much, so there was also that. But seriously, the whole gang was together for a moment there and the universe did not implode! ;) Oh and BTW, I was delighted to see that library in the context of the show after I saw that behind-the-scenes clip from Misha. 20,000 books! Isn't Metatron the scribe of God? Why would he need to take the demon tablet that he transcribed? Has it been established that the tablet is powerful even if no one can read it? I thought that is why he got rid of all the prophets... I think Marvatron knows what's written on it, but--like with the angel tablet--I imagine it has a power of it's own, not just in the knowledge written on it. I assumed Marvatron is going to tap into that energy now to do his various nefarious deeds of nefariousness. He's basically human now without his grace, he probably needs all the help he can get. I read this in the recap: My crazy ass wife decided to look it up (since we're not doing any foreign travel any time soon, she wasn't worried about consequences) and supposedly there is a book out there bound in human skin which was taken from 20 square inches of a donor's back. Apparently, the person was happy and healthy even after the removal. Here is the link: http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/anthropodermic-bibliopegy-the-true-practice-of-binding-books-in-human-skin The more you know..... They also had that book back in S6 that was made out of human skin. I'm a papermaker, so I can't help but wonder about the process, but nope, not clicking on that link. Seriously though, you can find anything on the internet, can't you? 2 Link to comment
Bishop April 18, 2015 Share April 18, 2015 (edited) Fantastic episode. I am loving the brother relationship, and I've come to the realization that Sam and Dean are going to lie, cheat, swindle, and defy death every single time one of them is about to die or be taken. They simply cannot do what they do without the other at their side. It's a living thing between them, and now that I understand that, I don't mind anymore when Sam lies and refuses to burn the book or Dean makes a deal to save his brother because they can't exist and fight and save the world without each other. It's an impossibility. They will either get their happy ending after all their sacrifice or they will both go out like Butch and Sundance, Thelma and Louise style. THAT is the only way to kill the Winchesters. You can't leave one alive because the other will simply move heaven and earth (literally) to get the other one back. They have to live or die together. It's the only way it can end, and either way, I'm okay with that. The episode had everything I love in it: Dean being awesome and the snark between him and "Mr. Stein." (I think I"m going to miss him.) Sam was great too, and I agree that it's nice to hear what he is feeling and not just try to interpret it. The same is true of Dean. We're getting a lot more talking between the brothers, which is so refreshing. Dean also telling Sam all about Rowena (which of course Sam uses by the end of the episode). I also was really enjoying Castiel and Metatron, which was a surprise for me. . I wasn't big on Metatron, but I did enjoy their scenes too. Lastly, Charlie has proven to be the perfect kid sister to the Winchesters, and I think she meshes nicely with that "family." I have really enjoyed this Mark of Cain storyline and that Dean has had a real chance to have an extensive storyline, and I love how Sam is right there in the thick of it with him. It's about both of them. I think the writers have finally started to listen to the fans and change course on some things. I've been enjoying Supernatural a lot this season, and I'm curious to see how the season is going to end and be set up for next year. Edited April 18, 2015 by Bishop 6 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 April 18, 2015 Share April 18, 2015 They were both right and both wrong in their choices and their reactions to their choices and IMO they have reached an impasse about the Gadreel incident. I don't think either will or necessarily even should say "I'm sorry" because if neither ever intends to change their choices going forward then apologies are meaningless and hollow between. I suppose that's why Dean bringing it up again is picking at me. Now, I thought of a head!canon this morning that maybe Dean bringing it up is ..maybe a sign that demon!Dean is trying come out....because it did seem more harsh and the look in Dean's eyes was cold. I mean Jensen's again with the perfect Ackting....had IMO a clear change of expression that wasn't just the normal Dean anger. But then maybe Dean was reacting in that way because of being messed up in the Book's vicinity. I dunno..it's bothersome LOL I think you might be on to something, catrox. I theorized a little bit back that maybe Dean says things like that when he's under a lot of stress, but it could also very well be demon Dean starting to peak through. Especially since that's the kind of thing demon Dean would say. Of course Dean realizing that he's slipping would be stressful for him as well, so it could potentially be a little bit of both. I think you're right though that it's an indication that something isn't right with Dean right now. The same turned out to be true in "Abandon All Hope," because after that episode Dean was not okay. At all. Link to comment
7kstar April 18, 2015 Share April 18, 2015 I didn't mind that Dean stood up for himself but I also thought he already did that in s9 when he separated himself from Sam. And when Sam told him he lied and Dean said "I'm proud of us" in s9 finale. It felt like it was just Dean being mean for no discernible reason. Oh well. Not a huge thing but was odd I thought. Oh I am so dumb I just got Sam saying exactly what Dean said in the pilot. That he doesn't want to do it alone. Well shit. This feels like a retcon and I don't know why! I saw Sam saying I don't want to do it alone as him finally coming clean with himself. He could have left Dean way back when...but I can get the one more time. I did the same with teaching, one more kid...I'll get this one through and then I'll go do something else. Now so many years later it is my career. I'm on the verge of hunting for the next career, but teaching became my life. I liked that Sam really saw how much he appreciated his brother and even stated how he missed seeing this happy carefree Dean. I think it was a reminder for him and Dean why they work together so well. As far as the Purge Speech, Dean thought he was dying and in that moment he might have been at peace with it, but now Dean is challenging just how far does Sam want to go when he really hurt Dean at his core. The issue can't be solved with a quick speech on a deathbed, so I was fine with seeing it. Plus Dean didn't really beat him down, but more like gave Sam a way out if he wanted to walk away. He also pulled the big brother card, that this is on me, you didn't cause this so you can't own it. Yes, Dean's still got a few secrets, but it was the most open he's been in way too many seasons. I also didn't think that Sam looked bad especially with his answer to Charlie. An answer by the way that Dean still hasn't heard. I think he would be very surprise to hear that Sam loves hunting when Dean still thinks that Sam wants to leave and get back to his life. If the writers move the whole thing to the brothers working together to solve the issue, I'm totally cool with that. I still love Charlie and I guess I'm not sorry for that either. I really liked her in this ep...so I look forward to seeing her again especially if she needs help and is organic to the storyline. Whatever Castiel does, he better keep Metatron's grace under heavy lock and key - as in hide it in Rowena's cleavage or something - where Metatron would never think to look, because really bad things are gonna happen I think if he gets it back. For me, it happened pretty much starting at the end of season 2 through to season 7 - with the exception of soulless Sam, and maybe, arguable season 4, though for me as I hinted at before, I think season 4 Sam partially happened because of Sam's not being able to live without Dean and his getting too damaged after Dean died and/or trying to deny it. As for hunting, I don't know about loving it per se, but Sam certainly seemed to think it was worth it and/or it was what kept him together since season 2. When Sam was distressed in any way, hunting - and hunting with Dean especially (when possible) - was what he seemed to turn to again and again. Even soulless Sam was yay hunting! So that had to be somewhat ingrained as a "good" thing in Sam's brain. As I said above, it's a character trait the current writers decided to keep, I guess. Dean doesn't have too many character flaws like this, but getting in a dig like that ever now and then is one of them. Besides the season 8 finale thing, I think the last one I found really meow-worthy was the "Abandon All Hope" one. I was like "ouch, Dean. Really? This could be your last night on earth with your brother and you decide to throw that dig out there?" If I were Sam, I would've thrown an epic bitchface rather than giving an abashed "Thank you again for your continued support" and clinking bottles with him. The Madison dig in "Sex and Violence" wasn't very nice either, but at least there Dean had an excuse of being frustrated, and Sam said much worse stuff later in the episode while under the influence. The "Abandon All Hope" one just seemed to come flying out of nowhere, though. As I also said, I appreciate Dean has some flaws, but this is one I wouldn't mind him growing out of... unless maybe it's an indication of Dean breaking down, being over stressed, or something like that. Like he just gets all of this self-questioning commentary in his head, and he lashes out in response. I might call it more of a throwback than a retcon? Season 7 Sam was getting pretty concerned and almost desperate when he thought Dean was giving up emotionally, and Dean's in even worse shape now with the mark threatening to turn him into a demon again. I didn't see Sam totally concerned about Dean in Season 7, it's where we disagree, which is fine. I did see some concern at times but he still threw things in Dean's face as well. They both do. I guess I don't remember the Abandoned All Hope evil quote from Dean. So I didn't see this as a flaw on Dean's part but more like trying to figure out just where does go if the mark takes over again. He is putting on the brave face of "I'm okay with Death" but we know that he doesn't want to die, he wants more. So I think it was good for him to put it out there and Sam's response for me worked. Now if Dean can't let it go, It's still normal but hopefully he will find a way to move on. You move on from blows of pain in spurts. I also liked that we got a strong look into Sam's head of what is at stake. Sure he could hunt on his own, and his brother could hunt on his own, but together is the richer blessing for both. And I really liked the scene with Sam and Charlie...so I like it and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) But I think in the end we have the same goals, 2 brothers enjoying working together to fight the big bads. Is that too much to ask???? 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 April 18, 2015 Share April 18, 2015 I guess I don't remember the Abandoned All Hope evil quote from Dean. It wasn't evil, just snarky and quite a bit (in my opinion) "where did that come from?" (not in a Dean shouldn't have felt it, necessarily way, but in a "how did we get there from what I said?" way). They were drinking together on the night before going after Lucifer, presumably considering Crowley's motivations and Sam said "It's gotta be a trap, right?" and Dean replied "Sam Winchester, having trust issues with a demon. Well, better late than never." I didn't see Sam totally concerned about Dean in Season 7, it's where we disagree, which is fine. I did see some concern at times but he still threw things in Dean's face as well. They both do. Yes, we can agree to disagree. And I was more implying that Sam was more attached to Dean in season 7 than previously (except maybe much of season 5 where he was similarly cling-y and "I can't do this without you.") rather than concerned for Dean * - though I thought he was that as well, or at least as much as he could be while also mentally challenged. But I agree that miles vary. And I also agree they both throw things in each other's faces. Sam usually when he's angry more than anything - though the Purge Lisa comment was an escalation of that tit for tat I didn't like. Besides I do like that Dean has some flaws. It makes him more real for me. * Considering Sam was often trying to be independent in the past, just him openly admitting to Dean that he needs Dean watching his back was kind of big for Sam, in my opinion. I also liked that we got a strong look into Sam's head of what is at stake. Sure he could hunt on his own, and his brother could hunt on his own, but together is the richer blessing for both. And I really liked the scene with Sam and Charlie...so I like it and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :) No disagreement from me here. But I think in the end we have the same goals, 2 brothers enjoying working together to fight the big bads. Is that too much to ask???? Apparently yes ; ) ... because apparently Sam has to do something stupid by going to Rowena for help * behind everyone's back instead. ::Le sigh:: * In other words literally working with the big bad rather than fighting against it with Dean. Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 (edited) So apparently Dean working out was filmed and was cut for time. I am very upset by this even though Dean working out seems ludicrous, I still feel cheated that we didn't see it. #freesweaty!Deanandhisguns Edited April 19, 2015 by catrox14 2 Link to comment
AwesomO4000 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 I think it's a sign he's losing it catrox. Trying hard to keep the crazy at bay ; ) ... or a sign he's turning evil. Remember the last time we saw major working out it was soulless Sam. Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 Oh I know. It's just soooo not Dean. But will support his efforts by watching him do it. Link to comment
AwesomO4000 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 Oh, I agree it's not like Dean. He mocked Sam vigorously for his jogging / running. I remember "Something better be chasing you." Hee! That seemed like Dean's real attitude on the subject of working out. Link to comment
7kstar April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 someone else pointed out that Sam going behind his back and NOT burning the Nun's journal actually saved Dean's life. So maybe it doesn't have to be a bad thing that Sam didn't burn the book of the damned... Link to comment
mertensia April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 I think Styne might be a bit of a pun? Since Styne translates into stone and they are guardians of the evil Lucifer Bible? Well, remember the pun with Jesus and Peter? "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church"? Peter means stone. Link to comment
Aeryn13 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 someone else pointed out that Sam going behind his back and NOT burning the Nun's journal actually saved Dean's life.So maybe it doesn't have to be a bad thing that Sam didn't burn the book of the damned... But the journal itself wasn`t evil. And there wasn`t an entire evil family who had used it to do evil and said its use brought upon biblical consequences. It also didn`t whisper to Dean to do evil. I think this book is like the one true ring in LOTR. I could understand any character who didn`t want to destroy it and argued that it could be a powerful weapon for their - good - cause and destroying it would be insane. They were all right. And yet, noone could ever use it for their good cause, no matter how hard they tried, because it was created specifically for evil and thus would always turn good into evil. Even if it helped you for a time. However, not burning the book wasn`t the WTF-action here, for me it was going to Rowena. I know she is a witch and it is basically a book of spells but Dean is not showing any signs of losing it right this instant so why run, not walk, to her of all people? It took some time to find the book, it will take some time to decode it so really, there would probably be time to find another witch or expert. ANY other one. What Dean told Sam is that Rowena has a beef with her son being weak, she kinda blamed it on Dean and tried to kill him but the MOC protected him. What to get from this is: of course Rowena will help removing the Mark because afterwards, she`d have a much easiert time killing Dean. However, this isn`t Sam`s end-goal. He wants the MOC removed and NOT have Dean killed right after, right? This isn`t like Ruby, Ruby at least pretended. This isn`t an "enemy of my enemy" scenario. With the information present, anyone, even Crowley, would be a better go-to-person than Rowena. Link to comment
DittyDotDot April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 someone else pointed out that Sam going behind his back and NOT burning the Nun's journal actually saved Dean's life. So maybe it doesn't have to be a bad thing that Sam didn't burn the book of the damned... Lesson here folks...book burning is BAD! ;) 3 Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 Yeah I think Sam's mistake, assuming Dean didn't fill him in on the particulars, is thinking that Rowena has any kind of good intentions here. Or is at all someone he should trust. To me this is not a parallel to Ruby but is a parallel to the first time Dean trusted Crowley in s5 which Sam was dead set against. Link to comment
7kstar April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 Yeah I think Sam's mistake, assuming Dean didn't fill him in on the particulars, is thinking that Rowena has any kind of good intentions here. Or is at all someone he should trust. To me this is not a parallel to Ruby but is a parallel to the first time Dean trusted Crowley in s5 which Sam was dead set against. Well it is clear that trusting Rowena is plain stupid. The question is how does Sam think he can control anything once he gave the book to Rowena? Why not keep it in his room so he has more time to figure it out? Hopefully whatever plan they have will not make us hate Sam again...I'm tired of that too. Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 I just don't want either boy to made a fool of again. I want them to be smarter than everyone else in the room. Taking this to the spec page. Link to comment
Happytobehere April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 (edited) I'm glad you guys liked this episode, but I can't with Felicia Day. There is something about her that just grates. I have the same reaction to the actress who played Fred on Angel. I simply cannot enjoy anything they are in. Add Booger on top of that and aside from a few scenes,like Cas getting his grace back and Dean in the store, this is an episode I could not get into. Edited April 19, 2015 by Happytobehere 1 Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 I am finding Charlie Sue much less enjoyable now. I think they are trying to hard with her and it shows. I would think after the last episode that there would be some more discussion of what went down between her and Dean. But it's not addressed and I personally still want Charlie to apologize to Dean for what she did to him. What I don't care for was how she was all badass now and could wield a sword and do ninja shit. Dark! Charlie was the badass one that slaughtered the people in Oz not regular Charlie. And dark! Charlie was quiet. So how does it track that regular! Charlie is doing that. I suppose she learned by video game like she did shooting. Or does she tap dark Charlie when she needs to? If so then I want Dean to tap into demon! Dean when he needs to heal himself or something. 1 Link to comment
SueB April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 I think that since Charlie said she was actively involved in a war in Oz, that Charlie has more fighting skills than before. Link to comment
DittyDotDot April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 What I don't care for was how she was all badass now and could wield a sword and do ninja shit. Dark! Charlie was the badass one that slaughtered the people in Oz not regular Charlie. And dark! Charlie was quiet. So how does it track that regular! Charlie is doing that. I suppose she learned by video game like she did shooting. Or does she tap dark Charlie when she needs to? If so then I want Dean to tap into demon! Dean when he needs to heal himself or something. I'm not a big Charlie enthusiasts either, but Dark Charlie and Good Charlie merged back together; she's now just Charlie. So I would imagine she'd have the skills of both Charlies now. I really would like another writer to write Charlie at this point. I think she has potential, but I also think Robbie Thompson has taken her as far as he can. Give her to Dabb or Berens for an episode, those two usually handle character well and it could put more nuances on Charlie. Right now, I find her to be a cliché character that needs more edges. Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 (edited) I know they were merged back together but it was still Dark!Charlie that could do those things not regular Charlie. When they were split regular!Charlie could not fight back at all apparently against Dean because it was Dark!Charlie that was being hit not regular!Charlie and it's seems regular!Charlie could barely do anything but she did shoot that one guy. (UGH I can't stand that whole plot line anyway) Are we to understand that Charlie has the capacity to push dark!Charlie away when she wants to now? I would rather that opening scene have shown us that Dark!Charlie is working to save Regular!Charlie and let us know that's why Charlie is now this bad ass. Just some dialogue where Dean or Sam says..."Hey Charlie, how do you manage to escape?" "Oh, I'm just not!Michonne now with a blade. The stuff dark!Charlie knew how to do, I can too now.' or something. I would still eyeroll it because it's more Charlie Sue crap but at least it would have been addressed. YMMV Edited April 19, 2015 by catrox14 Link to comment
DittyDotDot April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 My understanding is Charlie is both dark and light now. Both Charlies are Charlie now, they're not independent of each other anymore. She is just Charlie. Dark Charlie had fighting skills because Charlie had learned to fight in Oz, not because she was dark. If Charlie's personality was never split, Charlie would still have the fighting skills. I assume Good Charlie also had those same skills, but refused to use them because she found them repulsive. That's my take on it anyway. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 I don't think I'm stating my question properly. I fully understand that Charlie merged back together, that both dark and regular!Charlie exist within her. When Sam asked about dark!Charlie she said " Good? Bad? I think I'll just settle for balanced." and then later on about dark Charlie "She's uh....quiet" which is why I'm wondering how much control does Charlie have over dark!Charlie. It's kind of weird to me that she would just osmetically pick up those fighting skills... Link to comment
DittyDotDot April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 (edited) No, I think you're stating your question fine, I'm obviously not getting my thoughts across well. I don't think there's a Dark Charlie to control anymore, she doesn't exist as a separate entity--there's no Good Charlie either. So, I'd say balanced Charlie has just as much control over her dark side as anyone else does. We all have darkness inside of us and we all learn to control it. Like I said, I don't think she has the fighting skills from Dark Charlie, but she learned to fight in Oz before her personality was split. Good Charlie would also have those same skills, just not the will to use them; whereas, Bad Charlie used them with abandon. Now that she's complete, she has the skill and the control to use those skills only when needed. Again, It's just my interpretation, I don't think this has ever been spelled out in-show explicitly. Charlie did say her personality wasn't split until towards the end of the war, so I just assumed she learned to fight before she got split. Edited April 19, 2015 by DittyDotDot 1 Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 Ah okay. I see what you mean. I was thinking that regular! Charlie was supplanted by Dark Charlie in order to be the fighter in Oz and that regular Charlie was not that good of a fighter so she would have to have gained her skills via dark!Charlie. Link to comment
rue721 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 I am finding Charlie Sue much less enjoyable now. I think they are trying to hard with her and it shows. I've actually liked her better in the past couple seasons than I did previous to that. For what that's worth. Unfortunately, Charlie is already a "type" of character that I'm not all that fond of. The adorkable geeky girl. Sacrilege though it is, I don't like Felicity on Arrow, either, and didn't like Chloe on Smallville. So I guess it's just a character type that's not to my taste, personally. YMMV. But on top of that, Charlie is written as though she's the twelve year old version of that adorkable geeky girl type, which makes it SO MUCH harder to take imo. And her episodes are usually so PG and sweet that it makes my teeth hurt. But at least in the last couple seasons, her storylines/episodes haven't felt *as* much as though they're made for small children, which I appreciate. (As an example of a "Nick Jr" kind of Charlie episode -- remember that LARPing episode? I'm fine with LARPing as a hobby that people have irl, don't think real life LARPing is childish in and of itself, etc etc etc, but that episode in particular felt like it was written for six-year-olds. It wasn't even terrible, it just felt like watching Eureka's Castle or something. That's just not what I want to watch as an adult, I'm sorry). 1 Link to comment
rue721 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 So apparently Dean working out was filmed and was cut for time. I am very upset by this even though Dean working out seems ludicrous, I still feel cheated that we didn't see it. #freesweaty!Deanandhisguns It's too bad that this got cut for time! I like seeing that kind of daily stuff anyway. And seeing how Dean was working out might have given some insight into his state of mind. And seriously, Dean doesn't work out? Not even a dude-bro workout that's heavy on the pullups or on messing around with his awkwardly gigantic stash of weapons or something? So when he was just hanging at the bunker for like a week straight going through all the books he could find and researching (a bit earlier in the season), he was LITERALLY just hanging out in his room, sitting around so much that he was probably developing a blood clot? How could he not have gone completely stir crazy? No wonder he's been in a ~mood.~ GO FOR A RUN DUMBASS. :P Also! I kind of want to see what ~athletic feats~ Jensen can do, after that picture of him doing some kind of side-plank-into-handspring (?!!!!) weird position on the golf course a while back. Wtf *was* that position? And yes, I did attempt to do the same position to see how hard it was and. Well if you could see my noodle-y arms you would probably be able to guess how that turned out. But I also just couldn't figure out literally what he was doing. Ah well. It's destined to remain a mystery now, I suppose. 2 Link to comment
catrox14 April 19, 2015 Share April 19, 2015 You want athletic!Jensen porn....I'll be right back. There might actually be some in the actor's thread. 1 Link to comment
catrox14 April 20, 2015 Share April 20, 2015 Posting athletic!Dean pron in the Dean thread Link to comment
catrox14 April 20, 2015 Share April 20, 2015 (edited) For...science Edited April 20, 2015 by catrox14 Link to comment
oliverwendell April 20, 2015 Share April 20, 2015 I just watched the episode, and I laughed out loud at that line from Metatron to Cas: "Why would you want to cure that little firecracker? He's finally interesting!" Very meta!! Of course, I've always thought Dean was interesting even without having the major supernatural story arc, but that line did strike me as directed to many in the fandom who have been saying pretty much exactly that, and that I imagine some in the writing room have even said. 2 Link to comment
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