S03.E12: I Am Abassin Zadran

[RedHawk]

"Love, The Americans Style"

[RedHawk]

I can see Martha and Elizabeth smoking a joint after the big reveal.

Martha: "Oh wow, remember that time you came over and we got drunk and I told you 'Clark' was an animal in bed? Woah, I was talking about your husband! How funny was that?!"

Elizabeth: "Yeah, that was a knee slapping chat all right! I wanted to kill you right then. Still do!"

Martha: "Ehhh..."

[sistermagpie]

Isn't Paige close in age to Kimmie? Perhaps the Center wants to use Paige to gain info from a CIA agent in a similar way that Philip is using Kimmie?

 

 

Kimmie is the dupe here, not the person in control, so nothing's really being asked of her spy-wise. She presented with a desire to have an affair with an older guy so they sent her an agent to get him into the house. If they found a CIA guy who wanted an affair with a teenager why on earth would they use Paige? She's not the least bit prepared for any affair, much less one where she's running a professional spy who's an adult. Plus it ruins their plans for her--she can't show up at the CIA herself applying for a job if she's the former jailbait lover (under a different identity because they sure don't want to bring CIA attention to the Jennings family) of a CIA guy.

[Bannon]

At this rate, now that we have the FBI not sweeping a robot for bugs after being sent out for service, which came after a bug being found in a pen, I half expect Phillip to show up in disguise (maybe a fat suit!) as a window washer at FBI headquarters, and of course having expert lip reading skills.

 

I really do hope they let Phillip bring Martha into the fold. The could give Elizabeth a similar long terrm relationship, have everybody move into a four-plex, and give it a Honeymooners feel.

 

Martha: "Clark, I hate that you mixed up our anniversay with the one you have with Elizabeth! I'm going to my mother's! WAAHHH!!"

Clark: "Hamana hamana hamana......."

Elizabeth: "TO THE MOON, PHILLIP!!" (air punching)

Edited April 18, 2015 by Bannon

[Guest]

I think that's a pretty romanticized version of what happened.  There are plenty of people who struggled through those time periods.  You had real civil rights struggles, Vietnam, etc. in the 60s.  Inflation was terrible and the economy was stagnant throughout the 1970s.  

Not to mention the cold war. 

 

   I don't think anyone has addressed this yet-- what on earth do they tell Henry is the destination/purpose of Elizabeth's and Paige's trip? It's got to be something he'll think is dull or boring, and if he mentions it won't raise (Stan's) suspicions. It's also touchy, because it forces Paige to be a party to her parents lying to her Brother!

How about a handy church mission to Kenya?

 

When Philip picked her up drunk at a party. That same night he switched out the tapes in the bug and learned that the Afghan delegation was coming. Paige significantly noticed the phone call and Philip running out and it motivated her more to confront them.

 

So Kimmie's still bein' Kimmie, supplying intel and thinking Jim's the only one who really cares about her.

Kimmie is conveniently drunk, high and low maintenance, for a girl who lobbied hard for an older man lover.  

[sistermagpie]

How about a handy church mission to Kenya?

 

 

I really don't think that's until the summer--and even if it wasn't it seems like it would just be more complicated. Why make them have to run off from under Pastor Tim's nose?

 

Kimmie is conveniently drunk, high and low maintenance, for a girl who lobbied hard for an older man lover.

 

 

And yet, doesn't it seem like she's actually getting more out of this than she would out of that? I mean, the older man lover presumably came from the assumption that that's the way to prove a guy cares about you. Once Jim proved that he really did want her in other ways (by telling her about his son) she was kind of free to just enjoy the jackpot of an older guy who'll genuinely make her feel cared for. He'd be useless if Kimmie wanted to impress other people with him, but that doesn't seem where she's focused.

[Guest]

I really don't think that's until the summer--and even if it wasn't it seems like it would just be more complicated. Why make them have to run off from under Pastor Tim's nose?

 

 

And yet, doesn't it seem like she's actually getting more out of this than she would out of that? I mean, the older man lover presumably came from the assumption that that's the way to prove a guy cares about you. Once Jim proved that he really did want her in other ways (by telling her about his son) she was kind of free to just enjoy the jackpot of an older guy who'll genuinely make her feel cared for. He'd be useless if Kimmie wanted to impress other people with him, but that doesn't seem where she's focused.

Maybe they'll tell Henry it's the church trip but no one else.  They could keep him away from Tim afterward so he wouldn't mention it.  Or they could come up with a story that they're scouting out accommodations for the church trip.  I don't know, the Kenya thing has been mentioned repeatedly, I figure it's going to be used in the story.  

 

The teens I know expect their boyfriends to call or turn up practically daily.  But I know the story needs Kim and Martha to sit contentedly on back burners more than is probably realistic.  

[bluebonnet]

 

I don't think anyone has addressed this yet-- what on earth do they tell Henry is the destination/purpose of Elizabeth's and Paige's trip? It's got to be something he'll think is dull or boring, and if he mentions it won't raise (Stan's) suspicions. It's also touchy, because it forces Paige to be a party to her parents lying to her Brother!

Why wouldn't they just say they are going on a run-of-the-mill mother/daughter weekend?  Like, to the spa or something.  Actually, they don't even need to provide a destination, simply "Paige and your mom need some mother/daughter time."  Or there is always the fallback of using the travel agency as an excuse.  There are travel conferences all the time, all over the place, to be sure.  

Edited April 18, 2015 by bluebonnet

[sistermagpie]

The teens I know expect their boyfriends to call or turn up practically daily.  But I know the story needs Kim and Martha to sit contentedly on back burners more than is probably realistic.

 

 

He does have a reason for that--he's not supposed to live in Washington. It could still be a problem, but I could believe that the relationship is important enough to her that she likes seeing him once a week enough that she's not going to break up with him.

 

Why wouldn't they just say they are going on a run-of-the-mill mother/daughter weekend?  Like, to the spa or something.  Actually, they don't even need to provide a destination, simply "Paige and your mom need some mother/daughter time."  Or there is always the fallback of using the travel agency as an excuse.  There are travel conferences all the time, all over the place, to be sure.

 

 

Yeah, there's always been talk of Paige going to Europe as if that would be a normal thing. Her and Elizabeth going to some country in Europe seems like it wouldn't need much explanation.

Edited April 18, 2015 by sistermagpie

[John S]

Mom and Paige are going away for a few days? - Hooray.

Dad can we order some pizza?

[AGuyToo]

Why doesn't Henry get a chance to meet his grandmother too?

 

(I'm being willfully obtuse here -- I know the practical objections -- but I'd like to see what everyone else has to say.)

 

Henry is Philip and Elizabeth's child too. They really are his parents; he really is their son; this really is his life. He has never met any of his family outside their little circle. His only living grandparent is about to die. He has never met her, and soon the chance will be lost.

 

Why haven't Philip and Elizabeth even discussed how sad or unfair that is? I wonder if Paige will bring up this issue. She seems to look out for Henry as much as Philip and Elizabeth do.

Edited April 18, 2015 by AGuyToo

[bluebonnet]

Why doesn't Henry get a chance to meet his grandmother too?

 

(I'm being willfully obtuse here -- I know the practical objections -- but I'd like to see what everyone else has to say.)

 

Henry is Philip and Elizabeth's child too. They really are his parents; he really is their son; this really is his life. He has never met any of his family other than P and E. His only living grandparent is about to die. He has never met her, and soon the chance will be lost.

 

Why haven't Philip and Elizabeth even discussed how sad or unfair that is? I wonder if Paige will bring up this issue. She seems to look out for Henry as much as Philip and Elizabeth do.

Honestly, I think the family would be better off bringing Henry into the fold.  The Center would likely have a much better outcome if the children were both told.  Paige is isolated in her experience.  Even Philip and Elizabeth had one another when they first came to America.  Paige has no one who to talk to who is in the same position as she's in.  This is what creates a potentially dangerous situation like what happened with that kid of the other illegals (sorry, name is escaping me at the moment).  Teenagers just usually aren't equipped to handle this sort of thing on their own.  So yeah, while it's unfair to Henry, I think at the moment it's disastrously unfair to Paige.  

[sistermagpie]

Why haven't Philip and Elizabeth even discussed how sad or unfair that is? I wonder if Paige will bring up this issue. She seems to look out for Henry as much as Philip and Elizabeth do.

 

 

Henry might not see it as that big of a deal. He's never had a grandparent so he doesn't miss having one. It would be unfair if he knew about it but it would make sense to him that the older kid goes on a trip at 15 and if he wants maybe he can at that age too. They're only even doing it for Paige because she's specifically focused on her lack of family--and has done for a while. Elizabeth talks or thinks about her absent mother and father periodically, but we never hear Philip do it. (The only time he did was when he was scolding Paige for complaining about not having a family and even then he was talking about his fake backstory that might not be true.)

 

I don't think Paige is all that focused on looking out for Henry. She's presumably always looked out for him to a point just as her parents do since she's his big sister, but it doesn't surprise me that she isn't lobbying for Henry to be brought into the fold. A lot of her lines to him are about making clear how immature and silly he is. She gets that a lot of this comes down to her age and I think part of her likes that just fine. However stressful it is, she does I think LIKE being in on the secret as well, being the adult. But just as last season Elizabeth lectured her, being an adult isn't just about having freedom, it's about having responsibilities.

 

That makes her bolting to Pastor Tim interesting to, to me, in this ep. Pastor Tim and his wife are in some ways like regressing--she gets to be with a couple she doesn't know well and who really only exist to care for her, praise her and guide her. In that sense they are like her parents when she was younger. They don't have weird flaws and secret lives. So in this ep when she's dragged back home it's partly a way of saying she's still a kid--she doesn't get to leave a note for her parents like a grown-up about spending a "thrupple" night with Pastor Tim. But it's also about dragging her back to adulthood. She doesn't get a vacation from her new knowledge. She has to stick with the grown ups now, since she couldn't take the confinement of childhood.

[Guest]

Why doesn't Henry get a chance to meet his grandmother too?

 

If I was writing it, it'd be because Henry is a normal teen who could not care less what his parents do or where they're from or if he has blood relatives he's never met.  He's got E-football, MASH and Mrs. Beeman pics.

 

Or maybe when it's Henry's turn to meet the fam he can meet half-bro Misha(?).  

 

He does have a reason for that--he's not supposed to live in Washington. It could still be a problem, but I could believe that the relationship is important enough to her that she likes seeing him once a week enough that she's not going to break up with him.

 

 

Yeah, there's always been talk of Paige going to Europe as if that would be a normal thing. Her and Elizabeth going to some country in Europe seems like it wouldn't need much explanation.

Oh, I forgot Jim lives in another city from Kim.  And I guess the weirder thing would be travel agents who don't travel.  

[sistermagpie]

If I was writing it, it'd be because Henry is a normal teen who could not care less what his parents do or where they're from or if he has blood relatives he's never met.  He's got E-football, MASH and Mrs. Beeman pics.

 

 

So much of what sometimes gets described as tragic and sad about Henry reads to me as him being very normal.

[AGuyToo]

Henry might not see it as that big of a deal. He's never had a grandparent so he doesn't miss having one. It would be unfair if he knew about it but it would make sense to him that the older kid goes on a trip at 15 and if he wants maybe he can at that age too. They're only even doing it for Paige because she's specifically focused on her lack of family--and has done for a while. Elizabeth talks or thinks about her absent mother and father periodically, but we never hear Philip do it. (The only time he did was when he was scolding Paige for complaining about not having a family and even then he was talking about his fake backstory that might not be true.)

 

The point isn't what Henry thinks is a big deal. He's a 12-year-old boy -- which is to say, not the kind of person known for long-range thinking. P & E are his parents. They're supposed to be looking out for him. Even though lack of family may not bother Henry now, it might in the future, when he's a little older and especially when he's old enough to think about having kids of his own. Part of Philip and Elizabeth's job as parents is to think about what's best for future Henry.

 

It's true that Philip has never complained about lack of family, but we've gotten so little back story on Philip that I don't think that tells us anything.

[sistermagpie]

The point isn't what Henry thinks is a big deal. He's a 12-year-old boy -- which is to say, not the kind of person known for long-range thinking. P & E are his parents. They're supposed to be looking out for him. Even though lack of family may not bother Henry now, it might in the future, when he's a little older and especially when he's old enough to think about having kids of his own. Part of Philip and Elizabeth's job as parents is to think about what's best for future Henry.

 

 

I just don't see how they're not looking out for him here. When he's old enough to be brought in on this gigantic responsibility he can ask as many questions as he wants about his family any time he wants. Lots of people never meet their grandparents or don't remember their grandparents because they died. Elizabeth never met her father for the same reason. That's life. They're doing what's right for him now.

Edited April 19, 2015 by sistermagpie

[RedHawk]

On re-watch I noticed a little thing: The writers of this episode are Peter Ackerman & Stuart Zicherman. A and Z. Abassin Zadran? 

[gwhh]

There are NO CIA illegals in the Soviet Union during the Cold War! The Soviet Union was a total police state! No way that could happen!

I sincerely doubt that Paige and Elizabeth will make it to Russia. For The Drama I'm sure they will run into trouble on the way, but on another note completely, Paige is a walking security risk, and it has nothing to do with what she knows.

 

The sensible thing to assume is that if the KGB has deep-cover agents in America, then the CIA has them in Russia. The clothes would be a dead give-away, but also one look at Elizabeth's American haircut will tell them she's a visiting American, and they will try to get pictures of her that could feasibly get back to the CIA. So okay, they don't bring them in as important guest, they even disguise both Paige and Elizabeth against this. Put them in Soviet clothes, wigs even. Still dangerous. Paige is an American. She smiles with her teeth, she holds herself differently from a Soviet Teen. She walks differently. She can't speak a word of Russian.

 

I'm serious about this -- my mother and I went back to Free Lithuania in the early 2000s and every single person that saw me did a double-take. With my mother it was because of her denim skirts -- older women in Europe weren't wearing them at the time. Otherwise she wasn't regarded as such an oddity. But me? Granted, I was short, dark-eyed and dark-haired in a country full of tall blonde people, but I was not an impossibility -- they had people from all over Europe visiting. I was dressed like every single other teen I saw -- jeans, t-shirt, jacket. And yet something made people look twice. It was my earrings from Claire's or small details on my jacket cuffs. My braces were slightly different. At one point Mama and I walked to the city's only synagogue and the Rabbi and his wife pegged us as Americans from the way we walked there. (The Rabbi and his family were American Missionaries from New York, and really glad to see us. We had a meal with the congregation after the service and the Rabbi introduced us with a joke about almost doubting my mother on her being Jewish until he saw me. This made me realize that one of the reasons I was getting so many confused once-overs was because a lot of people in the city didn't know what a Jew looked like anymore, especially the kids. )

 

Paige won't have a problem fitting in with her looks; but she has a lifetime of mannerisms to hide. Drawing attention to her in Russia could put her family in serious danger from the CIA.

[AGuyToo]

I just don't see how they're not looking out for him here. When he's old enough to be brought in on this gigantic responsibility he can ask as many questions as he wants about his family any time he wants. Lots of people never meet their grandparents or don't remember their grandparents because they died. Elizabeth never met her father for the same reason. That's life. They're doing what's right for him now.

 

Sure, some things are "just life," but in this case, P & E are choosing to deny Henry a chance that he might value in later life. Maybe he wouldn't value it -- maybe meeting a sick old lady, a stranger to him, wouldn't affect him in the slightest, now or in the future -- but maybe he would. The fact that P & E don't even give him the chance to decide that troubles me; I see it as one more way in which they are bad parents (even though I do think they love their children).

[Helena Dax]

But Philip and Elizabeth can't take Henry to visit his grandmother without telling him they're actually from  Russia. And they can't tell him that because Henry would start to make a lot of questions, like "why can't I tell Mr. Beeman we were in Russia?". He'd  start to think there's something big  they're not telling him and then we'd have the Paige situation again with someone even younger. It's too risky and Henry deserves some more years of innocence.

[sistermagpie]

Sure, some things are "just life," but in this case, P & E are choosing to deny Henry a chance that he might value in later life. Maybe he wouldn't value it -- maybe meeting a sick old lady, a stranger to him, wouldn't affect him in the slightest, now or in the future -- but maybe he would. The fact that P & E don't even give him the chance to decide that troubles me; I see it as one more way in which they are bad parents (even though I do think they love their children).

 

 

But they're doing it for obviously the right reasons. I can't see how good parents would discuss giving a kid something he's completely unprepared to handle at his age because he might, as an adult, feel some regret at never meeting a grandparent. The potential reward for doing this is so thin and the potential risk and suffering so great that I can't believe any good parent would do it. They can't take him to see his grandmother without all sorts of problems so there's no reason to discuss it.

[John S]

Does anyone know - Does Philip have any parents?

[sistermagpie]

Does anyone know - Does Philip have any parents?

 

 

It's never been said one way or the other--I don't think MR knows either. It certainly doesn't seem like he has any currently, but who knows?

[John S]

Thanks.

[Cara]

There are NO CIA illegals in the Soviet Union during the Cold War! The Soviet Union was a total police state! No way that could happen!

While I have no doubt the CIA had operatives of some sort in the USSR. I agree there is no way they had people working in anything close to how P&E are able to operate in the U.S. Sometimes I think people forget or just don't realize how different the U.S. and USSR were.

[PinkRibbons]

While I have no doubt the CIA had operatives of some sort in the USSR. I agree there is no way they had people working in anything close to how P&E are able to operate in the U.S. Sometimes I think people forget or just don't realize how different the U.S. and USSR were.

 

If we accept that spies like Elizabeth and Philip could exist in America, it is absolutely possible that there could have been an actually American Philip and Elizabeth deep cover in Russia:

 

1. America had waaaaay more unaccented Russian-speakers than Russia did of American-Accented English speakers. There was immigration to America right after the war, not to mention even more in the early seventies. Tons of these immigrants still spoke Russian at home and had children that could speak it unaccented. Hell, give me a couple of years of more formalized training to fix up my pronunciation of certain words and vocabulary and I would be able to pass as fluent, no problem. And I'm American through and through. As for cultural training, there were more than enough Russian natives in America to work as consultants. They're working as consultants for the show right now, to get the Russian details right. So the idea of having an American spy posing as a Russian native is not at all far-fetched.

 

2. A huge chunk of Russia's records were destroyed in the war. Say the American Phil and Liz came to Russia in '63, the same way the Russian versions came to America. Our Philip and Elizabeth are living under the identities stolen from dead American children. In Russia all a pair of spies would have to do once smuggled into the country would be to say that they and their families came from a town that was destroyed during the War, record hall included. A pair of war orphans at that time would not arouse any suspicions.*

 

In any case, regardless of whether or not there were deep-cover American spies in Russia, to assume there were none would be a huge oversight on the part of the KGB. This was the cold war, paranoia was rampant and justified.

 

*For example: when Russia was allowing Jewish immigration in the 70s, potential emigrants was required to supply an invitation from a first degree relative who was already living abroad. My mother and grandmother (Baba) had no such relative. They did however have friends that managed to immigrate before they did, and those friends tracked down an unrelated woman in Israel who shared Baba's maiden name, and she kindly sent an invitation. Mama and Baba then sat down and made up a false history for this woman in which she was Baba's sister who had been separated from the rest of the family during the war. The town they said she had been born in was one that had had all of its records destroyed. This story was accepted without question because it was perfectly plausible.

 

And now that I think about I'll add the fact that you could basically bribe someone for any kind of legal papers you wanted/needed. My grandparents were divorced and my mother could not leave the country without the express permission of her father, who refused to give it. So when she was 20, Mama had her father legally killed. It involved a ridiculously large bribe and a sudden very long train trip to a suburb in Ukraine, but Mama obtained a death certificate with witnesses saying that her father had died there. Last I heard, Dedushka is alive and kicking in a little town in Russia, and has no idea that in Ukraine he's legally dead. The system was corrupt. CIA Philip and Elizabeth could have found the means to walk into Moscow with perfect Russian and iron-proof documentation.

[Umbelina]

The Soviet Union was huge.  Russia still is, even with parts of it chopped off.  The idea that we had no embedded spies in the entire Soviet Union is simply not true.  Although most that I've read about may have only stayed several months, not years, in aliases, and I do kind of doubt we had any Philip and Elizabeth decades long embedded spies. 

 

From what I've heard of Moscow though, I do think security, especially there, was so intense I'd be shocked if we had any deep embedded Americans in place.  As you said, it was a very controlled society.

 

Fascinating story PinkRibbons!

[Cara]

The Soviet Union was huge. Russia still is, even with parts of it chopped off. The idea that we had no embedded spies in the entire Soviet Union is simply not true. Although most that I've read about may have only stayed several months, not years, in aliases, and I do kind of doubt we had any Philip and Elizabeth decades long embedded spies.

From what I've heard of Moscow though, I do think security, especially there, was so intense I'd be shocked if we had any deep embedded Americans in place. As you said, it was a very controlled society.

Fascinating story PinkRibbons!

You are sort of making my point. I'm sure the CIA had spies in the USSR. But they probably had short and much more defined assignments. They weren't there for a life time like P & E. In such a closed and controlled society it would have been very difficult to pull off long term The Russians basically used our freedom against us. Besides, even if it were possible to pull off that type of spying it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to find many qualified (sane) people willing to accept such a job, no matter how much they loved their country. People are willing to die for their country but giving your life up like would be another matter entirely! Edited April 19, 2015 by Cara

[bluebonnet]

Isn't recruiting informants a beloved tool of spycraft?  I can't imagine that the CIA had no longterm informants within the USSR.  

[Umbelina]

Yes, the Operations Officers' real job was just that, recruiting agents (spies) and using them to get information, etc.  The embedded (secret) agents without diplomatic cover didn't do the things Philip and Elizabeth do, that would be left to Arkady's people, or in the CIA, to the embassy spies who had diplomatic cover.  That's just a TV show thing, having Philip and Elizabeth not only find actionable circumstances, but also carrying them out (they would never be the ones to bug the mail robot, for example, CIA and KGB have teams for that stuff.)  However "running" someone like Kimmy?  That they would do, to plant the bug and be able to return for the tape.  Ditto the Martha operation.  Elizabeth would have probably done the hotel stuff, and because of the perfect English stuff, probably have talked the Mujahedin guy into killing his co-horts as well.  So some stuff is more real than other stuff.

 

Sex, Blackmail, Money, or finding someone disenchanted with their job, or the government, were common methods of recruitment. 

[gwhh]

Khrushchev also meant by that speech.  That the cutting edge of the KGB was turned against its own citizens before and after WW 2 and that a mistake for sure after WW 2.  We don't know need to do that anymore, because we know they are loyal to the USSR and communist.  20 million of them died to save that system and to defeat the Nazis. 

 

 

There is nothing we've seen in Elizabeth yet that would make it a surprise that she supported Stalin's wholesale slaughter. The official party position after Khruschev's secret speech was that Stalin was wrong in persecuting fellow communists, but there was never any acknowledgement, for instance, that the slaughter of millions of middle class farmers in Ukraine  was wrong.

Edited April 20, 2015 by gwhh

[JasonCC]

One thing that's always bothered me if Phillip and Elizabeth are so committed to the cause, is that the show implies that they gave their children absolutely NO political leanings all this time or at least until Paige started hanging out with Pastor Tim.

 

If someday (16? 18?) they knew that Paige and eventually Henry would have to know the truth, they could have done a much, much slower roll out. Granted (teens then and now) are also just as likely to go the opposite direction to their parents out of spite or rebellion so there is that consideration. But unless we haven't been shown it, I think it wouldn't have been a bad idea of Elizabeth to have slowly prepped Paige more by: A) occasionally talking about the evils of religion to explain why they aren't church-goers (again, not saying "we're atheists and so are you"--that would be going to far and inspire rebellion--but at least nurturing a strong distrust of organized religion from school-aged on by pointing out absurdities and historic evils); B) using current events on the TV to maybe offer differing but subtle pro-Soviet views ("you know Paige, the Socialist Party used to be much larger here in America too, major cities had Socialist Mayors not that long ago. It's wasn't always a bad word."), C) perhaps a little friendly Reagan-bashing ("if nukes get used it's that trigger-happy man's fault"). Heck, MY parents did that in the 80s!

 

 

I don't know, do you guys get the impression Elizabeth & Phillip did this? I think I remember Elizabeth making a crack to Phillip once about Paige's history lesson. They can't show everything, but it just seems like suddenly at 15 Elizabeth realized Paige might have beliefs too (more because of the meddling of Pastor Tim) and that up until the timeline on the show they have engaged in NO prep-work to have their children be even slightly more likely to have Soviet sympathies than any other American schoolchild.

 

Martha: I think the only way out (aside from her death) is maybe Elizabeth and Phillip convincing their two crushes to go to South Africa together. If Hans isn't on a suspicion list that may be the best place for Martha. During the 70s and 80s the Republic of South Africa had very generous relocation packages, temporary housing, and employment-finding assistance programs: if you were white. Martha isn't REALLY legally married is she? Perhaps they could concoct a whirlwind marriage and moving away with Hans to South Africa that would satisfy her department. They are patronizing enough to buy the lonely single woman making a rash decision for love excuse, it would be less suspect than mysteriously quitting in the midst of an investigation. Getting Hans aboard would be tough, since it would involve participating in a society he hates.

Edited April 20, 2015 by JasonCC

[bluebonnet]

The first episodes of the show established that Philip and Elizabeth had never intended to tell Paige or Henry.  Elizabeth seemed the most adamant that they not know.  So it makes sense that they never directed Paige and Henry into any sort of political or areligious path.  I think their other spy colleagues did the same with their children, never intended them to know unless they were dead.  

 

What might be unclear is whether or not this was a directive from the center or just something they had decided together.  I always assumed it had been a directive from the center which is why Elizabeth was so on board with not telling and Philip was a little wishy washy on it at the start.  

[Hanahope]

I have to say, given Paige's attitude, especially towards Elizabeth, with her not trusting anything she says, it makes a lot more sense why the other agents' son killed them.  He probably felt betrayed by his parents as well, and he couldn't control himself.

 

I too am a bit surprised that Elizabeth didn't have at least a bit more influence over Paige's political/religious leanings early on.  My young daughters certainly know how I feel about certain political and religious philosophies just from hearing me comment about things at dinner or at other places.  But perhaps Elizabeth was so compartmentalized in her spy-craft, she never let any of her real feelings politically or religiously "slip" when around Paige.

[sistermagpie]

I too am a bit surprised that Elizabeth didn't have at least a bit more influence over Paige's political/religious leanings early on.  My young daughters certainly know how I feel about certain political and religious philosophies just from hearing me comment about things at dinner or at other places.  But perhaps Elizabeth was so compartmentalized in her spy-craft, she never let any of her real feelings politically or religiously "slip" when around Paige.

 

 

 

I think it's both with Elizabeth. She tried to keep compartmentalized, but she did slip. Paige is very aware that her parents don't like religion, and knew that as soon as she walked into the church. She doesn't seem to have been under the impression that they would be particularly against some of her other views. I think there have been times when they've explained little things to them--I remember that ep in the motel room where Philip explains why the show is sponsored by an insurance company by saying that capitalism is a system based on selling something people want. She's not shocked to think of her parents being involved in the Civil Rights movement--surprised that they were more politically engaged, but not surprised that their politics would run more to the left.

 

So it's very subtle, but there were definitely times when they would slip in a little something here or there. I think Philip was more likely to explain American things to them, though. Like giving the definition of capitalism or explaining to Henry how he allegedly had to do more work at the agency because big companies could offer packages etc. It's a small thing but I think it does imply a little reminder that this is economic theory to him. I think they've also taken times to instill the values of socialism too, just not in a way that's overtly passionate. 

 

And there were a couple of funny moments in S1 where Elizabeth would try to contradict overtly pro-American stuff, like when she said that just getting into space was a real achievement, not just landing on the moon, and reacted with alarm to Paige saying that Poland was "part of Russia."

[bluebonnet]

I have to say, given Paige's attitude, especially towards Elizabeth, with her not trusting anything she says, it makes a lot more sense why the other agents' son killed them.  He probably felt betrayed by his parents as well, and he couldn't control himself.

 

I think Jared's case was further antagonized by the handler having so much involvement.  So he discovers his life is a lie, that his parents are spies while also being groomed by someone who seemed to be using sex and/or romance as the hook.  The handler created a situation where Jared's parents could be nothing but his enemies.  I think Philip and Elizabeth being the only one's involved in Paige learning about this makes a huge difference.  

Edited April 20, 2015 by bluebonnet

[sistermagpie]

I think Jared's case was further antagonized by the handler having so much involvement.  So he discovers his life is a lie, that his parents are spies while also being groomed by someone who seemed to be using sex and/or romance as the hook.  The handler created a situation where Jared's parents could be nothing but his enemies.  I think Philip and Elizabeth being the only one's involved in Paige learning about this makes a huge difference.

 

 

Honestly, just imagine what life was like for Jared after the Centre told him about his parents. He *knows* they're lying and what they're lying about and seeing how easy it is for them every second. Paige was furious watching things like Philip get a phone call and cheerfully come up with a work excuse to leave--furious enough to confront them about it and really mean it. Jared, as you say, was put into a situation where his parents were the enemy. They were unwittingly hurting him more and more every time he interacted with them because the Centre did that to them. 

[Couch Sweet Potato]

I don't think Jared was that much into spying as a career. I think he was just in love with Kate and would have gone along with whatever she said. When his parents tried to keep him away from her, he just blew up. Paige's situation is completely different. She's just evaluating spycraft as its own thing and not loving it so far.

[AGuyToo]

I don't think Jared's case tells us anything about what will happen with Paige. (At least, I very much hope that it doesn't.) I enjoy and admire this show very much, but there are a few things about it that I think are ridiculous. First among the ridiculous things is the handling of Jared. I can believe that Jared would have been shocked by the revelation about his parents and would have acted out. But the idea that he would have murdered his parents and his sister is too much. And the idea that he would have spent his last few minutes on Earth "expositioning" to Elizabeth and Philip while blood gushed from his mouth -- explaining the ambiguous details of Season 2 -- was crap storytelling. That piece of the Season 2 finale was so lazy. Weisberg and Fields are talented guys, but they totally failed here. The conclusion of the Jared story was stupid.

 

Sorry to hijack the thread. I came late to this show, and only recently finished a binge watch. The mention of Jared reminded me that I wanted to get off my chest how much I hated the Season 2 finale.

 

Ignore me. Please continue discussing the show.

Edited April 21, 2015 by AGuyToo

[millennium]

I don't understand what the Centre could possibly be wanting to use Paige for as a 15 year old. Things are moving too slow? Meaning they need her to take up spying for them right now? What could she even do?

 

 

It's also stupid because Paige wasn't brought up in the same crucible of misery as her parents.   Her ideology is freedom and individuality, not communism.   What are they going to do, brainwash her?  Wouldn't it make more sense to recruit someone fresh from Bumfuckstag, USSR?  Do they believe being a good spy is hereditary?   It's just dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

And I think poor Martha's gonna die, though hopefully not in that sweater.

[ToastnBacon]

 

And I think poor Martha's gonna die, though hopefully not in that sweater.

I know, it makes her look fat, doesn't it?

[millennium]

I know, it makes her look fat, doesn't it?

 

It does!   Up till now i always thought of Martha as voluptuous rather than fat.

 

Of course very soon it may all be moot if Philip murders her then snaps her bones to jam her down the garbage disposal or whatever. 

[shura]

Paige's situation is completely different. She's just evaluating spycraft as its own thing and not loving it so far.

 

Is that what she is doing? To me, it looks like she is just pissed at her parents for being not what she thought they were. I'm not even sure I've seen anything to suggest that Paige has a problem with them being spies per se. Is she even appalled at them working against the United States? Has she said anything to that effect? Honestly, I only remember her indignation at the fact that her personal life has been a lie.

[sistermagpie]

It's also stupid because Paige wasn't brought up in the same crucible of misery as her parents.   Her ideology is freedom and individuality, not communism.   What are they going to do, brainwash her?  Wouldn't it make more sense to recruit someone fresh from Bumfuckstag, USSR?  Do they believe being a good spy is hereditary?   It's just dumb, dumb, dumb.

 

 

It is dumb on many levels, but I can see what they think. It's not that they think Paige will be a good spy--she's not supposed to be a good spy the way Philip and Elizabeth are. (The two of them would have been recruited when they showed potential and then put through rigorous training where they could have flunked out.) The idea with Paige is just that she's like an asset, like Martha or Fred or Lisa. Someone who works in a place where they have access to secrets that they will then pass to the KGB--maybe she could also point the KGB to other potential recruits. Where heredity comes into it is that they're hoping that these kids having an important relationship with KGB operatives--their parents--will make them more able to be converted, even though their parents haven't raised them to do this. They basically just want to exploit the parental relationship to see how it works.

 

Which makes their blunder with Jared even more glaring--but they did at least seem to learn the correct lesson from it. It's not enough that these kids have this relationship. The parents have to be the ones to exploit it.

 

To be fair, I think espionage often does run in families--and that's probably often not a good thing. It's the idea of knowing somebody's background really well since their dad was also CIA or whatever. But in this case it's just about the relationship with the parents, it seems. The Centre hasn't said anything about Paige having any talent for spying.

 

Is that what she is doing? To me, it looks like she is just pissed at her parents for being not what she thought they were. I'm not even sure I've seen anything to suggest that Paige has a problem with them being spies per se. Is she even appalled at them working against the United States? Has she said anything to that effect? Honestly, I only remember her indignation at the fact that her personal life has been a lie.

 

 

Exactly--she has literally never said a *peep* about having any side in this war. Viewers often bring up the negative view of the USSR Paige would have, but she hasn't yet seemed to react to that aspect of it at all. "My parents are Soviet spies" isn't even really an unheard of thing for a kid her age as a cartoonish fantasy as the secret Russian spy thing was kind of a trope. A lot of those 50 sci-fi movies about aliens were metaphorically reflecting that. And as I mentioned in Stingers, the soap opera Paige is watching in that ep will very shortly be starting its own cheesy storyline about a Russian Illegal just like P&E.

 

But so far Paige has offered no opinion on the country her parents are actually working for, she's just been angry that she doesn't know her real heritage and who her parents really are. It's all about her personal life. Perhaps Reagan's speech to the Evangelicals will kickstart that part of it for her. The only way she seems to be approaching the ethics of it is when, pre-reveal, she expressed concern over whether it's okay to deal drugs or rob banks in the pursuit of the cause. And in a commercial that showed a scene that hasn't aired, she asks Elizabeth if spies "steal." So that shows her questions the ethics of spying, but not anything about the USSR. And even that was totally before the reveal. She hasn't, onscreen, yet questioned her parents about what they do for their jobs, much less what they've done to undermine the US government.

[Umbelina]

Well, to be fair, even if she has opinions about them being Russian spies, would she feel safe or comfortable TELLING them that?

[millennium]

The more I think about Martha, the more she seems doomed.

 

Stan's visit was the nail in the coffin, I think.  Philip will kill her, make it look like a suicide, and everyone will say "The visit from Stan must have pushed her over the edge.   She knew the FBI was closing in on her.   Poor, frumpy, traitorous Martha."

Well, to be fair, even if she has opinions about them being Russian spies, would she feel safe or comfortable TELLING them that?

 

I have to admit, ever since they told her, I can't watch the show without thinking the unthinkable: that Philip and Elizabeth may find it necessary to kill Paige. 

[John S]

The more I think about Martha, the more she seems doomed.

 

Stan's visit was the nail in the coffin, I think.  Philip will kill her, make it look like a suicide, and everyone will say "The visit from Stan must have pushed her over the edge.   She knew the FBI was closing in on her.   Poor, frumpy, traitorous Martha."

 

I have to admit, ever since they told her, I can't watch the show without thinking the unthinkable: that Philip and Elizabeth may find it necessary to kill Paige. 

Since Paige and Elizabeth are supposedly going to Russia, the OTHER unthinkable event might happen. Elizabeth could leave Paige there, put in the "care" of the KGB. I don't think that either event will happen - but I guess you never know.

[millennium]

Since Paige and Elizabeth are supposedly going to Russia, the OTHER unthinkable event might happen. Elizabeth could leave Paige there, put in the "care" of the KGB. I don't think that either event will happen - but I guess you never know.

 

I never considered the other alternative.   I've been too busy trying to guess how they will pull off getting Elizabeth to Russia when the FBI knows that one of the illegals operating in the DC area is a young blonde woman. 

 

By the way, does anyone know where Elizabeth keeps all her wigs?   I keep imagining she has one of those revolving walls in her bedroom, like Batgirl.

Edited April 21, 2015 by millennium

[bluebonnet]

The more I think about Martha, the more she seems doomed.

 

I have to admit, ever since they told her, I can't watch the show without thinking the unthinkable: that Philip and Elizabeth may find it necessary to kill Paige. 

I wonder if it's now something Elizabeth thinks about since she put her hands on Paige in an effort to keep her quiet so Henry wouldn't hear.  Not that I think P or E would kill Paige, just that the idea that someone will want to do something to Paige if she decides to start talking must be terrifying to them as parents.  

 

By the way, does anyone know where Elizabeth keeps all her wigs?   I keep imagining she has one of those revolving walls in her bedroom, like Batgirl.

Either at that safe house Philip uses or her own safe house, I presume.