Lifetime's VC Andrews Movies Topic (Flowers In The Attic, The Dollangangers, The Casteels, etc) - General Discussion

Scarlett45 · May 13, 2021

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

I felt so sorry for Paul being stuck with comatose Giselle. He really was a true friend and honestly, better husband to Ruby than Beau who got on my last damn nerve. He deserved better than to drunkenly wander into the swamps and die.

Yes, I know there's was a marriage of convenience, especially with the half-brother detail, but I liked them as a couple and yes, tre risque, I thought they had wicked-hot chemistry.

Paul Tate was fine. I think he really did love Ruby and would've been a great Dad to Pearl. Ruby did him wrong IMO.

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

nd an ass since he was content to let another man raise his child so he could play around in Paris.

To be fair, Ruby told Paul she was getting an abortion, and that they couldn't be together and to go on with his life. Thats when he went to Paris. He didnt know Ruby had Pearl until he had gotten back, and Giselle told him Pearl was Paul's baby. The timeline was close but Ruby did tell him to leave.

Avaleigh · May 13, 2021

On 5/9/2021 at 7:59 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Me too. What would you all want to see next? I don’t think I’m familiar with any of the other series.

Dawn is the only other series I read all the way through so I'm probably most interested in seeing that one.

That being said, I can see reasons for choosing one of the others. I didn't read Melody but my understanding is that a lot of it takes place by the seaside. These productions have done some decent on location shooting considering their budgets, so I wouldn't mind seeing a VC Andrews tale in this setting.

Rain could be another good choice but they'd definitely have to make some changes. I read the first book out of curiosity to see how a POC would make out in the VC Andrews-ish world. I can't remember all of the specifics but I didn't care for it enough to continue with the series. Some parts were straight up embarrassing but it's been too long for me to remember what my issues were with the story. I do recall that I hated the character of the sister.

Not sure if any other single heroine stories came after Rain. I remember there being a series about orphans and wildflowers or something like that but I never read any of them.

I wish the ghostwriter had given Jillian her own book. That I might actually read.

Scarlett45 · May 13, 2021

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

WTF to Ruby or Beau, Ruby especially, to never tell Pearl about her uncle Paul and all he did for her as a young girl. And how did she end up calling Paul's sister her aunt?

I think Pearl did know a bit about Paul, taking her and her mother in when she was an infant (the marriage and them being half siblings)- she didn't know about the suicide though.

Edited I was wrong-

I think that Pearl ended up calling Paul's sister Aunt out of respect, an honorific- an elder that is close to you where a Mr./Ms in front of their first name isn't enough to demonstrate the relationship. Thats common in a lot of cultures(both white and black people from the south did that, especially back then)- because children calling adults by their first name with no honorific isn't done.

Daisy · May 13, 2021

3 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I almost forgot. I finally got around to watching the last two Ruby movies and they weren't bad.

I felt so sorry for Paul being stuck with comatose Giselle. He really was a true friend and honestly, better husband to Ruby than Beau who got on my last damn nerve. He deserved better than to drunkenly wander into the swamps and die.

Yes, I know there's was a marriage of convenience, especially with the half-brother detail, but I liked them as a couple and yes, tre risque, I thought they had wicked-hot chemistry.

I found Beau dull as dirt and not nearly as good-looking as Paul. And an ass since he was content to let another man raise his child so he could play around in Paris.

I also hated how they cheated on their spouses, even if Giselle was a nasty bitch (although that didn't bother Beau enough to keep from marrying her) and again, the half-brother bit. And yes, Paul was deluded. Maybe he read that book about those kids in the attic and how the oldest two kids, brother and sister, ended up together in the end. 😁

But he cared for Ruby when she didn't have a penny to her name and also loved and cared for Pearl like she was his own. And he was a far better husband to Giselle.

Is it any wonder I was Team Gladys (played to perfection by Kristian Alfonso) re the custody suit?

I don't think Beau gave two shits about Pearl and if Giselle hadn't succumbed to a mosquito bite, something tells me he would have been happy to screw them both (because don't tell me he wasn't sleeping with Giselle before she became incapacitated).

As for Hidden Jewel, well, it was more entertaining than the book, which I'd long since forgotten.

It did bug that they had the same actress playing Pearl as who had played Leigh in Heaven and that she was a redhead vs blond like her erstwhile father, Beau. But they did get Ruby/Giselle and Paul/Beau's hair colors right (although Beau's hair could have been lighter). I won't touchPearl's awful bangs. They do score points for Ruby's Harper Valley PTA hair. So 70s.

It also didn't bug that Ruby and Pearl appeared to be the same age but Ruby gave birth to Pearl around 16-17 so she would have only been in her mid-30s as of Hidden Jewel. And I LOL'd at this line from Ruby to Pearl to acknowledge it to the audience: "I remember when I was your age; it doesn't seem that long ago at all." And it cracked me up how Beau would sometimes look like he had gray hair and you'd blink and the gray would be gone. Sometimes in the same scene.

Beau was about as useless and boring as he's ever been, letting the women work to save Pierre. I also didn't like that he wanted Ruby to forget about her bayou roots and acted like she was white trash or something. Can you tell I hate Beau?

Thank goodness they shelved him with a broken arm so the ladies could carry the rest of the movie on their more than capable shoulders as finally, the seeds Ruby sowed came back to bite her re Paul. WTF to Ruby or Beau, Ruby especially, to never tell Pearl about her uncle Paul and all he did for her as a young girl. And how did she end up calling Paul's sister her aunt?

My favorite parts were the moments in the bayou, with Pearl finally learning about her Cajun roots and history.

We also get to see Pearl kick Buster Trayhaw's ass and cage him in fine Landry women tradition.

And she got a man worthy of her in John. although them sleeping together within 48 hours of meeting and it being her first time was a little head-tilty.

The wrap-up with Ruby and Ghost Paul was pretty short and sweet and hokey, but it's VC Andrews Lifetime style, so I'll forgive it.

i will say - I kinda wish the Paul actor played Beau because i agree. Paul + Ruby had so much chemistry it was crazy. It made me wanna root for the incest lol

In regards to Movies -
Dawn please. (Melody was meh, and i loathed Rain)

Avaleigh · May 13, 2021

1 hour ago, Daisy said:

i will say - I kinda wish the Paul actor played Beau because i agree. Paul + Ruby had so much chemistry it was crazy. It made me wanna root for the incest lol

In regards to Movies -
Dawn please. (Melody was meh, and i loathed Rain)

Lol, I was probably being too charitable about Rain but since I couldn't really remember details I didn't want to totally shit on it. Was I at least correct in thinking that the sister was one of the worst creations in fakeAndrewsland?

Edited May 13, 2021 by Avaleigh

Daisy · May 13, 2021

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

Lol, I was probably being too charitable about Rain but since I couldn't really remember details I didn't want to totally shit on it. Was I at least correct in thinking that the sister was one of the worst creations in fakeAndrewsland?

I can't remember Rain much. this was one of the ones i read like. once and went "what am i doing to myself?" but her brother was pervy like. Lusting after Rain while they those they were siblings and her daughter was stupid. like there was nothing at all to this girl but a walking, breathing, talking Ghostwriter Andrews trope.

At least Dawn in her stupidity was interesting.

StaceyNotStacie · May 16, 2021

On 5/10/2021 at 12:22 AM, qtpye said:

Dawn and Rain could be interesting.

Also, they could do Garden of the Shadows (prequel to FITA).

I’d love to see the Garden of Shadows movie, along with the ghostwriter book about

Spoiler

Cory

Kiki777 · May 20, 2021

They already made a move based on Rain, I remember seeing this but don’t recall many details aside from the surprisingly a-list cast:

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0478237/

andromeda331 · May 21, 2021

21 hours ago, Kiki777 said:

They already made a move based on Rain, I remember seeing this but don’t recall many details aside from the surprisingly a-list cast:

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0478237/

I don't remember ever hearing about this movie.

Kiki777 · May 22, 2021

I bet it was straight-to-video - I caught it on a random afternoon on one of the basic cable channels.

ElectricBoogaloo · May 22, 2021

For some reason, Paul Sheffield from the Dollanganger series popped into my head today, and not a random thought like "oh, remember Paul?" It was a very specific and anger-inducing "Paul suuuuuucked" thought. He was portrayed as this nice guy who just happened to take in three orphans out of the goodness of his heart and eventually marry one of them. I don't deny that he was very kind to Carrie and Chris, and he was very generous paying for private schools and college tuition on top of the cost of taking care of three kids.

But even when you remove all the shady stuff with Cathy (grooming her, isolating her by sending Carrie and Chris away to school, groping her when she was only 15, having sex with her when she was 16 and he was her legal guardian), the other stuff that we learn about him throughout Petals on the Wind is...not great.

He said he and Julia were childhood sweethearts and neither of them ever dated anyone else. That sounds romantic until he also adds, "Julia belonged to me, and I let every other boy know it." Possessive and territorial - awesome. They got engaged when she was 18 and he was 19, not for some sweet reason but because Paul said, "When I was in college, I'd think of her back here and wonder what man had his eye on her. I was afraid I'd lose her to someone else if we didn't marry." Jealous and insecure - great.

Despite the fact that he said he loooooooved Julia so much, he wasn't faithful to her. He said, "I'd had a few sexual encounters, not many. She was a virgin and thought I was." In other words, he fucked around on her while he was away at college. Cheating and lying - what a catch. When she didn't respond sexually, his reaction was "I loved her, and I wanted her, and in the end I raped her—or so she said time and again." A rapist who still couldn't admit that he was a rapist, despite his wife's exact words. He went on to say, "She was so lovely, so desirable and so near that sometimes I'd force her, even if she cried afterward." But still not a rapist according to him, right? Then we get shades of Arden Lowe when he says that he found out from Julia's mother that his wife had been molested by her cousin when she was only four. Instead of being understanding about the fact that she had been sexually assaulted and clearly traumatized, he was like okay, I guess I'll just fuck my receptionist.

After having an affair with his receptionist for several years, when his mistress became pregnant, how did honorable, upstanding Paul react? He said that he didn't believe her because she was supposed to be on the pill. Then he said he knew she had other lovers. Yup, tell your side piece that she's a liar and then slut shame her. Nice, Paul. I mean, how do you know if she's sleeping with other people? Did you peek in through her window and actually witness her having sex with other men? And if you really wanted to make sure that she didn't get pregnant (you know, since you were still married), you could have worn a condom.

In conclusion, Paul sucks. His major redeeming quality was that he never judged or blamed Cathy and Chris for their relationship. He accepted it, he never told them that they were icky/gross for being more than brother and sister, and he even encouraged them to be together because he could see how much they loved each other. And unlike the other men in Cathy's life, he never felt threatened by Cathy's relationship with Chris. But he still sucked for a lot of other reasons.

Whew, I just had to get that off my chest. I knew that the people here would understand my need to rant about Paul for a minute!

qtpye · May 22, 2021

9 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

For some reason, Paul Sheffield from the Dollanganger series popped into my head today, and not a random thought like "oh, remember Paul?" It was a very specific and anger-inducing "Paul suuuuuucked" thought. He was portrayed as this nice guy who just happened to take in three orphans out of the goodness of his heart and eventually marry one of them. I don't deny that he was very kind to Carrie and Chris, and he was very generous paying for private schools and college tuition on top of the cost of taking care of three kids.

But even when you remove all the shady stuff with Cathy (grooming her, isolating her by sending Carrie and Chris away to school, groping her when she was only 15, having sex with her when she was 16 and he was her legal guardian), the other stuff that we learn about him throughout Petals on the Wind is...not great.

He said he and Julia were childhood sweethearts and neither of them ever dated anyone else. That sounds romantic until he also adds, "Julia belonged to me, and I let every other boy know it." Possessive and territorial - awesome. They got engaged when she was 18 and he was 19, not for some sweet reason but because Paul said, "When I was in college, I'd think of her back here and wonder what man had his eye on her. I was afraid I'd lose her to someone else if we didn't marry." Jealous and insecure - great.

Despite the fact that he said he loooooooved Julia so much, he wasn't faithful to her. He said, "I'd had a few sexual encounters, not many. She was a virgin and thought I was." In other words, he fucked around on her while he was away at college. Cheating and lying - what a catch. When she didn't respond sexually, his reaction was "I loved her, and I wanted her, and in the end I raped her—or so she said time and again." A rapist who still couldn't admit that he was a rapist, despite his wife's exact words. He went on to say, "She was so lovely, so desirable and so near that sometimes I'd force her, even if she cried afterward." But still not a rapist according to him, right? Then we get shades of Arden Lowe when he says that he found out from Julia's mother that his wife had been molested by her cousin when she was only four. Instead of being understanding about the fact that she had been sexually assaulted and clearly traumatized, he was like okay, I guess I'll just fuck my receptionist.

After having an affair with his receptionist for several years, when his mistress became pregnant, how did honorable, upstanding Paul react? He said that he didn't believe her because she was supposed to be on the pill. Then he said he knew she had other lovers. Yup, tell your side piece that she's a liar and then slut shame her. Nice, Paul. I mean, how do you know if she's sleeping with other people? Did you peek in through her window and actually witness her having sex with other men? And if you really wanted to make sure that she didn't get pregnant (you know, since you were still married), you could have worn a condom.

In conclusion, Paul sucks. His major redeeming quality was that he never judged or blamed Cathy and Chris for their relationship. He accepted it, he never told them that they were icky/gross for being more than brother and sister, and he even encouraged them to be together because he could see how much they loved each other. And unlike the other men in Cathy's life, he never felt threatened by Cathy's relationship with Chris. But he still sucked for a lot of other reasons.

Whew, I just had to get that off my chest. I knew that the people here would understand my need to rant about Paul for a minute!

There is an overtone in V.C. Andrew's books that men are excused for rape because they can not help it because the women in their lives are so beautiful and desirable and it is their right as a man to have ownership of those women.

Even nice guy Chris raped Cathy when he found out that she secretly kissed Bart in her peek a boo baby doll nightie, "because she was his".

It is an attitude that greatly disappoints me but was not an uncommon attitude for a woman of V.C. Andrews, age and time.

Daisy · May 22, 2021

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

For some reason, Paul Sheffield from the Dollanganger series popped into my head today, and not a random thought like "oh, remember Paul?" It was a very specific and anger-inducing "Paul suuuuuucked" thought. He was portrayed as this nice guy who just happened to take in three orphans out of the goodness of his heart and eventually marry one of them. I don't deny that he was very kind to Carrie and Chris, and he was very generous paying for private schools and college tuition on top of the cost of taking care of three kids.

But even when you remove all the shady stuff with Cathy (grooming her, isolating her by sending Carrie and Chris away to school, groping her when she was only 15, having sex with her when she was 16 and he was her legal guardian), the other stuff that we learn about him throughout Petals on the Wind is...not great.

He said he and Julia were childhood sweethearts and neither of them ever dated anyone else. That sounds romantic until he also adds, "Julia belonged to me, and I let every other boy know it." Possessive and territorial - awesome. They got engaged when she was 18 and he was 19, not for some sweet reason but because Paul said, "When I was in college, I'd think of her back here and wonder what man had his eye on her. I was afraid I'd lose her to someone else if we didn't marry." Jealous and insecure - great.

Despite the fact that he said he loooooooved Julia so much, he wasn't faithful to her. He said, "I'd had a few sexual encounters, not many. She was a virgin and thought I was." In other words, he fucked around on her while he was away at college. Cheating and lying - what a catch. When she didn't respond sexually, his reaction was "I loved her, and I wanted her, and in the end I raped her—or so she said time and again." A rapist who still couldn't admit that he was a rapist, despite his wife's exact words. He went on to say, "She was so lovely, so desirable and so near that sometimes I'd force her, even if she cried afterward." But still not a rapist according to him, right? Then we get shades of Arden Lowe when he says that he found out from Julia's mother that his wife had been molested by her cousin when she was only four. Instead of being understanding about the fact that she had been sexually assaulted and clearly traumatized, he was like okay, I guess I'll just fuck my receptionist.

After having an affair with his receptionist for several years, when his mistress became pregnant, how did honorable, upstanding Paul react? He said that he didn't believe her because she was supposed to be on the pill. Then he said he knew she had other lovers. Yup, tell your side piece that she's a liar and then slut shame her. Nice, Paul. I mean, how do you know if she's sleeping with other people? Did you peek in through her window and actually witness her having sex with other men? And if you really wanted to make sure that she didn't get pregnant (you know, since you were still married), you could have worn a condom.

In conclusion, Paul sucks. His major redeeming quality was that he never judged or blamed Cathy and Chris for their relationship. He accepted it, he never told them that they were icky/gross for being more than brother and sister, and he even encouraged them to be together because he could see how much they loved each other. And unlike the other men in Cathy's life, he never felt threatened by Cathy's relationship with Chris. But he still sucked for a lot of other reasons.

Whew, I just had to get that off my chest. I knew that the people here would understand my need to rant about Paul for a minute!

Of course!

you know, i always knew Paul was scuzzy but i forgot how completely disgusting he was. And it's something - you can understand why Cathy would handwave all of that, where you know Heaven would give him the business.

qtpye · May 23, 2021

I was also randomly thinking about VC characters the other day.

In Flowers in the Attic, Corrine was horrible and of course one of the worst mothers ever.

She was shown as a beautiful spoiled woman who never worked a day in her life and got by solely on her looks. Corrine was characterized as very lazy.

However, if you go by what Cathy says about their life before the attic, Chris would travel a lot for his jobs and this made Corrine a full-time mother to four children almost all by herself.

Cathy even states that she was a good mother to them at that time.

I am sorry there is no way a woman who is raising four children mostly by herself is lazy unless she is staying in bed all day. It seemed like the house was clean and the children seemed to be well taken care of.

Don't get me wrong, Corrine is terrible but it seems like VC Andrews just takes it for granted how hard it would be to raise 4 children and be a housewife with your husband gone for most of the week. I don't think they had a housekeeper or nanny, though I could be wrong (it has been a long time since I read the books). Maybe VC was one of those that did not count being a SAHM as real work?

It is kind of funny to think of the high and mighty Corrine scrubbing toilets and doing laundry but she must have indeed done these things while she was with Chris Sr. Four young children can destroy a house and would be an endless cycle of tedious work.

Edited May 23, 2021 by qtpye

ElectricBoogaloo · May 23, 2021

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I was also randomly thinking about VC characters the other day.

In Flowers in the Attic, Corrine was horrible and of course one of the worst mothers ever.

She was shown as a beautiful spoiled woman who never worked a day in her life and got by solely on her looks. Corrine was characterized as very lazy.

However, if you go by what Cathy says about their life before the attic, Chris would travel a lot for his jobs and this made Corrine a full-time mother to four children almost all by herself.

Cathy even states that she was a good mother to them at that time.

I am sorry there is no way a woman who is raising four children mostly by herself is lazy unless she is staying in bed all day. It seemed like the house was clean and the children seemed to be well taken care of.

Don't get me wrong, Corrine is terrible but it seems like VC Andrews just takes it for granted how hard it would be to raise 4 children and be a housewife with your husband gone for most of the week. I don't think they had a housekeeper or nanny, though I could be wrong (it has been a long time since I read the books). Maybe VC was one of those that did not count being a SAHM as real work?

It is kind of funny to think of the high and mighty Corrine scrubbing toilets and doing laundry but she must have indeed done these things while she was with Chris Sr. Four young children can destroy a house and would be an endless cycle of tedious work.

I consulted my old copy of Flowers in the Attic and they did not have a nanny in Gladstone (or if they did, Cathy didn't mention one). Their next door neighbor Mrs. Bertha Simpson was described as their most dependable babysitter but she didn't say how often she watched the kids. The only time Cathy brought her up was when she was cooking dinner and watching Cathy and Chris while Corrine was waiting to go into labor with Carrie and Cory. But Corrine was the one who made all the food for Chris Sr's big birthday party so I assumed that she usually made all the meals for the family.

Later when Corrine helped Cathy and Chris clean the attic, Cathy said, "When we lived in Gladstone, we had a twice weekly maid who came in to do all the hard, dreary things that would redden Momma's hands and break her fingernails."

qtpye · May 23, 2021

5 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I consulted my old copy of Flowers in the Attic and they did not have a nanny in Gladstone (or if they did, Cathy didn't mention one). Their next door neighbor Mrs. Bertha Simpson was described as their most dependable babysitter but she didn't say how often she watched the kids. The only time Cathy brought her up was when she was cooking dinner and watching Cathy and Chris while Corrine was waiting to go into labor with Carrie and Cory. But Corrine was the one who made all the food for Chris Sr's big birthday party so I assumed that she usually made all the meals for the family.

Later when Corrine helped Cathy and Chris clean the attic, Cathy said, "When we lived in Gladstone, we had a twice weekly maid who came in to do all the hard, dreary things that would redden Momma's hands and break her fingernails."

She did kind of make it seem like Corrine did nothing but look good for when Chris Sr. came home. However, I guess Corrine was a pretty good cook and did seem to do the majority of the child care (the twins were still pretty young).

The funny thing is that cooking has many things that will break your nails and redden your hands. Not to mention running after toddlers all day does not help with your appearance.

Again, Corrine was horrible but the middle-class lifestyle must have been a bit of a shock to someone who grew up fabulously wealthy.

Jillian, from the Heaven series, did have a pretty pampered life. I think she went from rich (first husband and Leigh's father) to crazy rich with Tony, though she did not seem to grow up rich.

Does anyone know if Heaven ever bothered to look up her biological grandfather when she went to Boston? It almost seemed like Leigh's father totally forgot about her after he got involved with the lady after Jillian. I remember he owned something like a cruise ship line.

JAYJAY1979 · May 24, 2021

19 hours ago, qtpye said:

She did kind of make it seem like Corrine did nothing but look good for when Chris Sr. came home. However, I guess Corrine was a pretty good cook and did seem to do the majority of the child care (the twins were still pretty young).

The funny thing is that cooking has many things that will break your nails and redden your hands. Not to mention running after toddlers all day does not help with your appearance.

Again, Corrine was horrible but the middle-class lifestyle must have been a bit of a shock to someone who grew up fabulously wealthy.

Jillian, from the Heaven series, did have a pretty pampered life. I think she went from rich (first husband and Leigh's father) to crazy rich with Tony, though she did not seem to grow up rich.

Does anyone know if Heaven ever bothered to look up her biological grandfather when she went to Boston? It almost seemed like Leigh's father totally forgot about her after he got involved with the lady after Jillian. I remember he owned something like a cruise ship line.

From what I recall Leigh's 'dad' had already passed away when Heaven came to stay with Tony and Jillian.

Edited May 24, 2021 by JAYJAY1979
Meant to say Heaven..not Leigh

qtpye · May 24, 2021

9 minutes ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

From what I recall Leigh's 'dad' had already passed away when Leigh came to stay with Tony and Jillian.

I wonder if he left Leigh anything which would have been passed on to Heaven? It seems crazy that he would forget his daughter but the book sort of makes it seem like that is what happened.

andromeda331 · May 24, 2021

5 hours ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

From what I recall Leigh's 'dad' had already passed away when Heaven came to stay with Tony and Jillian.

He had by that point. Jillian uses it to blame it on Leigh for running away.

ElectricBoogaloo · May 24, 2021

22 hours ago, qtpye said:

She did kind of make it seem like Corrine did nothing but look good for when Chris Sr. came home.

Cathy definitely went into detail about how Corrine spent all Friday getting her hair done at the beauty salon, soaking in the bathtub, doing her makeup, etc. in preparation for Chris Sr. coming home but since there was no mention of a nanny, at the very least she took good care of Cathy and Chris.

In If There Be Thorns, Christopher tells Corrine that he overheard her telling Chris Sr. to sue to try to get some of the money that was owed to him, so I guess Corrine not so secretly missed being rich.

I guess this is a good time for a poll: who thought that Corrine was telling the truth when she said she was trying to make the kids sick enough to sneak them out of the attic? And who thought she was trying to kill them to destroy any evidence that they ever existed because she didn't want to risk losing her inheritance?

22 hours ago, qtpye said:

Corrine was horrible but the middle-class lifestyle must have been a bit of a shock to someone who grew up fabulously wealthy.

My grandmother had a similar thing happen to her. She came from a very rich family with servants and she went to boarding school. Her parents disapproved when she got married so they disowned her. She had never done any sort of manual labor in her life, but she and her husband initially worked on a farm. A few years later, he got a job in another country so she was raising four kids by herself and working multiple minimum wage jobs to keep a roof over their heads.

On 5/23/2021 at 3:10 AM, qtpye said:

Jillian, from the Heaven series, did have a pretty pampered life. I think she went from rich (first husband and Leigh's father) to crazy rich with Tony, though she did not seem to grow up rich.

From what I remember, Jillian's childhood in Texas was not nearly as luxurious as the life she lived with Tony. Her father was a foreman at an oil field. After he died, her two sisters Peggy and Beatrice (who she claimed had always been jealous because she was sooooo pretty and their dad's favorite) supposedly treated her like Cinderella, stealing her jewelry, throwing away her makeup, and making her do all the chores, but Jillian was a pretty unreliable narrator so I don't know how much of that I believe. Jillian's original fairytale story was that Jana intended to have Cleave Van Voreen marry one of Jillian's sisters but when he saw Jillian, he fell in love with her immediately and proposed. The real story was that Jillian got knocked up by some guy named Chester so Jana was trying to find a husband and marry her off as quickly as possible. Jillian never told Cleave that Leigh wasn't his. According to Leigh, they had the nicest house in town so it sounded like they were pretty well off, but not nearly as loaded as Tony. Of course, that's all relative because one of Jillian's complaints was that Cleave's company had several ships but that Cleave didn't have his own private yacht.

5 hours ago, JAYJAY1979 said:

From what I recall Leigh's 'dad' had already passed away when Heaven came to stay with Tony and Jillian.

When Heaven initially arrived at Farthy, Tony told her that he wasn't her biological grandfather. He said that Leigh's "real" father Cleave had died two years earlier.

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

I wonder if he left Leigh anything which would have been passed on to Heaven? It seems crazy that he would forget his daughter but the book sort of makes it seem like that is what happened.

In Fallen Angel, Tony said that Cleave left money to Jillian (which is kind of strange since he married Mildred a few years after Jillian divorced him). Leigh already felt that Cleave was neglecting her, but after he married Mildred and then cancelled on her at the last minute when he was supposed to come to Boston and have dinner with her, she felt he had totally abandoned her. As to why Cleave didn't leave any money to Leigh, Jillian said that Cleave couldn't put himself back together after Leigh disappeared. Leigh had been gone for about 15 years by the time Cleave died, so he probably assumed that she was dead so there was no point in leaving money for her.

andromeda331 · May 24, 2021

On 5/23/2021 at 12:59 AM, qtpye said:

I was also randomly thinking about VC characters the other day.

In Flowers in the Attic, Corrine was horrible and of course one of the worst mothers ever.

She was shown as a beautiful spoiled woman who never worked a day in her life and got by solely on her looks. Corrine was characterized as very lazy.

However, if you go by what Cathy says about their life before the attic, Chris would travel a lot for his jobs and this made Corrine a full-time mother to four children almost all by herself.

Cathy even states that she was a good mother to them at that time.

I am sorry there is no way a woman who is raising four children mostly by herself is lazy unless she is staying in bed all day. It seemed like the house was clean and the children seemed to be well taken care of.

Don't get me wrong, Corrine is terrible but it seems like VC Andrews just takes it for granted how hard it would be to raise 4 children and be a housewife with your husband gone for most of the week. I don't think they had a housekeeper or nanny, though I could be wrong (it has been a long time since I read the books). Maybe VC was one of those that did not count being a SAHM as real work?

It is kind of funny to think of the high and mighty Corrine scrubbing toilets and doing laundry but she must have indeed done these things while she was with Chris Sr. Four young children can destroy a house and would be an endless cycle of tedious work.

I have a hard time imagining Corrine cooking and cleaning not just because of what she became later but because in the end Christopher Sr and Corrine owned nothing. Everything was taken away. I can buy a cook or housekeeper and Corrine seemed to have zero skills leading her to write to her parents' for money. I suppose maybe she started out cooking and cleaning but by the time Christopher Sr died they paid for a housekeeper.

But out compared to Jillian in the beginning Corrine seemed like she loved her family. Jillian never came off like she loved Cleave and was bitching about things. She seemed obvious a gold digger and traded up to Tony. Corrine's betrayal of her kids was much more shocking then Jillian's. I don't think Jillian ever loved Leigh she only what she could use her for.

Edited May 24, 2021 by andromeda331

andromeda331 · May 24, 2021

15 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I guess this is a good time for a poll: who thought that Corrine was telling the truth when she said she was trying to make the kids sick enough to sneak them out of the attic? And who thought she was trying to kill them to destroy any evidence that they ever existed because she didn't want to risk losing her inheritance?

No, I think she was lying. The only time it was ever mentioned was after Cathy exposed her. At that point she was trying to save her skin and maybe her marriage. Cathy bought the birth certificates which Bart verified were real. So she had to come up with something. She came up with a few different lies which Cathy destroyed except for one when she claimed how horrible Malcolm was treating her that Bart pointed out wasn't true. The only reason Corrine and Grandmother took Cory was because for once Cathy was creating a scene and to keep them from getting suspicious. Then dumped his dead body in the attic. Corrine could have done many things. Even after being at Foxworth Hall she easily could have stolen anything from there, or saved the money she blew on her kids, or sold some of her jewels and easily could have gotten enough money to support her kids. Corrine didn't do any of it. She kept putting off when they were suppose to leave. She remarried without telling her new husband she had four kids in the attic. Her money, nice life and inheritance meant more to her then her kids.

Daisy · May 24, 2021

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

No, I think she was lying. The only time it was ever mentioned was after Cathy exposed her. At that point she was trying to save her skin and maybe her marriage. Cathy bought the birth certificates which Bart verified were real. So she had to come up with something. She came up with a few different lies which Cathy destroyed except for one when she claimed how horrible Malcolm was treating her that Bart pointed out wasn't true. The only reason Corrine and Grandmother took Cory was because for once Cathy was creating a scene and to keep them from getting suspicious. Then dumped his dead body in the attic. Corrine could have done many things. Even after being at Foxworth Hall she easily could have stolen anything from there, or saved the money she blew on her kids, or sold some of her jewels and easily could have gotten enough money to support her kids. Corrine didn't do any of it. She kept putting off when they were suppose to leave. She remarried without telling her new husband she had four kids in the attic. Her money, nice life and inheritance meant more to her then her kids.

Yeah. the thing is Corrine was always weak. I don't doubt that she did love her children once, and she loved Christopher, but I think she was always used to a certain life, and she gave it up for Christopher, and without him, she didn't really want any part of it (even the children). like she was given the option to just leave w/them and not have money (as pointed out - why not just steal what she needed, and make better connections and be well off). We never did see her point of view on anything (which is why i wish Garden of Shadows was based on Corrine not Olivia). like did she hesitate when Malcolm said she gets everything but she could never have kids and she loses everything? Did she cry?

I know in Thrones she showed regret (but that was years and years after the fact). Did she have regret the moment she did it, but she had to commit? Did she think she could get over it easily? When was the moment that she decided "I am going to kill my children."

Something that I wish they had mentioned was how rich was Malcolm? Like yeah they had servants and lived in a huge house, but were they just "well to do" rich - sort of like the Gilmore Girls, or was he like mega rich. (Like Rockerfeller etc rich). I mean i know it doesn't change the fact of what Corrine did but like did she do it hundreds of thousands or for millions upon millions, ya know?

Snow Apple · May 24, 2021

I guess I can see Corrine learning to take care of babies, cooking, and doing surface cleaning. And it's mentioned they had a housekeeper twice a week to deep clean and probably do laundry. Chris Sr. spoiled her but Corrine was in love too and at least tried. The children adored her. She even got down on her hands and knees to clean in the early days of the attic.

But she got sucked back into the wealthy lifestyle and it was easier to ignore her children's suffering. She probably lied to herself that it will be back to normal one day and she will make it up to them. At least during the first years.

qtpye · May 24, 2021

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Cathy definitely went into detail about how Corrine spent all Friday getting her hair done at the beauty salon, soaking in the bathtub, doing her makeup, etc. in preparation for Chris Sr. coming home but since there was no mention of a nanny, at the very least she took good care of Cathy and Chris.

In If There Be Thorns, Christopher tells Corrine that he overheard her telling Chris Sr. to sue to try to get some of the money that was owed to him, so I guess Corrine not so secretly missed being rich.

I guess this is a good time for a poll: who thought that Corrine was telling the truth when she said she was trying to make the kids sick enough to sneak them out of the attic? And who thought she was trying to kill them to destroy any evidence that they ever existed because she didn't want to risk losing her inheritance?

My grandmother had a similar thing happen to her. She came from a very rich family with servants and she went to boarding school. Her parents disapproved when she got married so they disowned her. She had never done any sort of manual labor in her life, but she and her husband initially worked on a farm. A few years later, he got a job in another country so she was raising four kids by herself and working multiple minimum wage jobs to keep a roof over their heads.

From what I remember, Jillian's childhood in Texas was not nearly as luxurious as the life she lived with Tony. Her father was a foreman at an oil field. After he died, her two sisters Peggy and Beatrice (who she claimed had always been jealous because she was sooooo pretty and their dad's favorite) supposedly treated her like Cinderella, stealing her jewelry, throwing away her makeup, and making her do all the chores, but Jillian was a pretty unreliable narrator so I don't know how much of that I believe. Jillian's original fairytale story was that Jana intended to have Cleave Van Voreen marry one of Jillian's sisters but when he saw Jillian, he fell in love with her immediately and proposed. The real story was that Jillian got knocked up by some guy named Chester so Jana was trying to find a husband and marry her off as quickly as possible. Jillian never told Cleave that Leigh wasn't his. According to Leigh, they had the nicest house in town so it sounded like they were pretty well off, but not nearly as loaded as Tony. Of course, that's all relative because one of Jillian's complaints was that Cleave's company had several ships but that Cleave didn't have his own private yacht.

When Heaven initially arrived at Farthy, Tony told her that he wasn't her biological grandfather. He said that Leigh's "real" father Cleave had died two years earlier.

In Fallen Angel, Tony said that Cleave left money to Jillian (which is kind of strange since he married Mildred a few years after Jillian divorced him). Leigh already felt that Cleave was neglecting her, but after he married Mildred and then cancelled on her at the last minute when he was supposed to come to Boston and have dinner with her, she felt he had totally abandoned her. As to why Cleave didn't leave any money to Leigh, Jillian said that Cleave couldn't put himself back together after Leigh disappeared. Leigh had been gone for about 15 years by the time Cleave died, so he probably assumed that she was dead so there was no point in leaving money for her.

My vote is for Corrine to be lying. She was trying to kill them.

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I have a hard time imagining Corrine cooking and cleaning not just because of what she became later but because in the end Christopher Sr and Corrine owned nothing. Everything was taken away. I can buy a cook or housekeeper and Corrine seemed to have zero skills leading her to write to her parents' for money. I suppose maybe she started out cooking and cleaning but by the time Christopher Sr died they paid for a housekeeper.

But out compared to Jillian in the beginning Corrine seemed like she loved her family. Jillian never came off like she loved Cleave and was bitching about things. She seemed obvious a gold digger and traded up to Tony. Corrine's betrayal of her kids was much more shocking then Jillian's. I don't think Jillian ever loved Leigh she only what she could use her for.

Yes, we are supposed to be shocked that Corrine betrays her children because she was good to them and seemed to love them a lot when they lived in Gladstone, PA.

As for Jillian, you could see what she was planning for Leigh a mile away. Jillian did not love or care about anyone but herself. She was the ultimate narcissist. Sometimes it is hard for me to believe that Tony married a woman quite a bit older than himself (though she lied about her age) without a prenup, who was married with a child.

The only explanation that was given was that she was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen in his life and he had to possess her no matter what since he was the type to objectify women.

I often thought that Jillian was Corrine on steroids. With Corrine, you could sometimes see flashes of humanity and again, she seemed like a good mother and wife in the early years.

Jillian was so self-absorbed and evil she often seemed like a wicked cartoon villain.

Though one thing about Jillian, she must have had decent artistic talent to be such a successful illustrator. She was hired to paint murals at Farthy way before Tony knew how incredibly beautiful she was supposed to be. I think he said something about walking in and seeing these incredible legs on a ladder and she came down and he was blown away (or something along those lines) and that was when they first met.

Edited May 24, 2021 by qtpye

CountryGirl · May 24, 2021

I will always think Corrine lied and that she fully intended to kill all of them. At minimum, she planned to keep them locked up even before they arrived at FC (Olivia's letter said they would have to remain hidden from the grandfather) and I'll always remember her comment (said to herself, under her breath) when they were walking towards the mansion after the train dropped them off and the twins were complaining to the effect of "they should walk now, while they can."

Then came the will with the codicil that she if it were ever proven she had children by her first husband (Chris Sr), she'd be disinherited and she would even lose everything if she had any children ever. I think she would have kept them locked up forever before the will, but once the will came, so did the arsenic-laced donuts.

ElectricBoogaloo · May 24, 2021

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Sometimes it is hard for me to believe that Tony married a woman quite a bit older than himself (though she lied about her age) without a prenup, who was married with a child.

In Tony’s sort of defense, she did lie about her age. When they met, she told him she was 30. He was only 20 so he was young and in love so he stupidly believed her. She also didn’t tell him right away that she had a kid. Jillian was many things, but dumb wasn’t one of them. She manipulated him and lied/withheld information until she had totally reeled him in.

I do wonder how much of Leigh’s story came from VCA vs the ghostwriter.

qtpye · May 25, 2021

15 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

In Tony’s sort of defense, she did lie about her age. When they met, she told him she was 30. He was only 20 so he was young and in love so he stupidly believed her. She also didn’t tell him right away that she had a kid. Jillian was many things, but dumb wasn’t one of them. She manipulated him and lied/withheld information until she had totally reeled him in.

I do wonder how much of Leigh’s story came from VCA vs the ghostwriter.

Didn’t he hire a private detective and found out that she lied about her age and married her anyway?

There were a million red flags that he ignored and his excuse was always “because she was so beautiful”.

The thing is that good looking rich young men often have beautiful women throwing themselves at them just because of their money...to the point that beauty in itself becomes kind of worthless.

I just guess that he was just obsessed with Jillian in particular and later with her daughter.

CountryGirl · May 25, 2021

Yep, Tony learned Jillian's true age some time before as Leigh learned when she tried to use that as leverage to prevent him from raping her and his response was, "I know her true age, my sweet" or something icky like that.

It's honestly a toss-up as to who is more disgusting - Paul or Tony.

ElectricBoogaloo · May 25, 2021

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Didn’t he hire a private detective and found out that she lied about her age and married her anyway?

He said he didn't hire an investigator and find out the truth until after they got married.

In Dark Angel, he said that when they met he was 20 and Jillian told him that she was 30. He said that it wasn't until six months after the wedding that Leigh told him that Jillian was actually 40.

In Web of Dreams, Tony was 23 when they met and Jillian told him that she was 28 (she was actually 40). He told Leigh that he had Jillian's past fully investigated but not until after the wedding.

I don't know why the ghost writer had such a hard time keeping track of this info and kept making errors like this. The age discrepancies in Garden of Shadows drove me crazy too.

Edited May 25, 2021 by ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo · May 25, 2021

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

It's honestly a toss-up as to who is more disgusting - Paul or Tony.

Tony's only redeeming quality was that he loved Troy. Everything else he did was garbage. He manipulated Heaven and lied to her from the minute he met her. He made her promise not to see her family. He forbade her from seeing Troy in the hopes of her falling in love with him and saving him (more manipulating and selfishness on Tony's part). He sold Luke a circus for $1 to keep him from coming to Heaven's wedding or ever having contact with her again. He convinced Logan to work for him to keep Heaven close. He let her believe that Troy was dead.

Paul kept the full truth about Julia from Cathy and groomed her to become his teenage lover, but I think he truly loved Carrie (and Chris but to a lesser extent). His other redeeming quality is that he never judged Cathy and Chris for their relationship. He was the only person in the world who told Cathy that it was okay for her to love Chris, and not just when he was old and about to die. When they talked about her miscarriage, he said that he knew she and Chris loved each other in a special way and that he understood. When she asked if it was an unforgivable sin, he told her it was an understandable act of love. Don't get me wrong - Paul was still awful, but his complete acceptance of Cathy and Chris loving each other definitely puts him ahead of Tony.

qtpye · May 25, 2021

4 hours ago, qtpye said:

Didn’t he hire a private detective and found out that she lied about her age and married her anyway?

There were a million red flags that he ignored and his excuse was always “because she was so beautiful”.

The thing is that good looking rich young men often have beautiful women throwing themselves at them just because of their money...to the point that beauty in itself becomes kind of worthless.

I just guess that he was just obsessed with Jillian in particular and later with her daughter.

Yeah, you think ages would not be that difficult to remember.

I wondered what was the point of investigating Jillian after the wedding? He already signed the prenup that gave her half of everything. If he wanted to invalidate their marriage because of fraud then why did he never divorce Jillian? She was horrible and was so cruel to poor little Troy. There was no reason to stay with her after Leigh left beyond he was just perversely obsessed with the women in that family because of their beauty.

It was also a thing with early VC heroines was that they were the most beautiful females around. Heaven and Leigh were supposed to be as beautiful as Jillian but they had good hearts and empathy. Also, they had interests outside of just enhancing their looks.

Of course, even though the ladies were beautiful, their lives usually were really messed up.

I think when I was growing up a lot of people thought that if a lady was considered beautiful by the standards of society, than she had it made. Now I feel that life is more complex than that and beauty does not automatically equal happiness. Growing up reading VC’s books might have also had a little something to do with that.

ElectricBoogaloo · May 25, 2021

The other huge discrepancy in the Heaven story was that in Dark Angel, Tony said they hired detectives to try to find Leigh. He said all they had to go on was a postcard that she sent from Atlanta about two months after she left, but that they never found her. In Web of Dreams, Leigh sends a postcard to Jillian two days after leaving Farthy. I guess mail delivery was slower back in the 50s but I doubt it would have taken two months for a postcard to go from Atlanta to Boston.

In Web of Dreams, Annie finds a letter in Leigh's diary. It's from the private investigator who says that he tracked Leigh down in West Virginia and that she was pregnant but that she died in childbirth. The detective also said that the baby girl survived. The letter was addressed to Tony, but Annie found Leigh's diary in Jillian's room which means that both Tony and Jillian knew about Heaven and they just chose to let her live in poverty until Luke contacted them.

In theory, I could see this change meaning that Tony was lying to Heaven all along because he knew that Leigh had died AND that Heaven was his daughter. But I think the truth is that it was sloppy writing from the ghost writer who didn't care that this contradicted the information in Dark Angel. But this is one of the main reasons why I wondered how much of Leigh's story was created by VCA versus the ghost writer. In Dark Angel, it's established that Tony raped Leigh (setting up the half uncle/half niece reason why Troy and Heaven can't get married), but Tony claims Leigh was the one coming on to him and liked it (which, OF COURSE he would say). In Web of Dreams, Leigh is a sweet innocent girl who gets molested and raped by Tony due to the portrait doll sessions. After Web of Dreams came out, I always wondered how much (if any) of what happened in Web of Dreams was what VCA had in mind.

The other change I remember is that in Dark Angel, Tony said that he pulled Leigh into his office and raped her there. He said they did it at least three times over two months before she ran away. But in Web of Dreams, he rapes her first in her own bedroom and then a second time in Jillian's bedroom before she runs away. This doesn't change the fact that he's a shitbag who raped a 13 year old girl and it doesn't change anything plot wise, but it's just another example of the ghost writer being careless/sloppy.

Heh, and since we're talking about the shitty men in these books, let's not forget about Luke. For all his supposed worship of Leigh, he was fucking Sarah after he married Leigh. Heaven and Tom were only four months apart in age. Leigh gave birth to Heaven 7/8 months after marrying Luke (Heaven was born on February 22nd and she either left Farthy on June 18 according to Dark Angel or in July according to Web of Dreams), so Sarah got pregnant with Tom in September, 2/3 months after Luke and Leigh got married.

qtpye · May 26, 2021

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

The other huge discrepancy in the Heaven story was that in Dark Angel, Tony said they hired detectives to try to find Leigh. He said all they had to go on was a postcard that she sent from Atlanta about two months after she left, but that they never found her. In Web of Dreams, Leigh sends a postcard to Jillian two days after leaving Farthy. I guess mail delivery was slower back in the 50s but I doubt it would have taken two months for a postcard to go from Atlanta to Boston.

In Web of Dreams, Annie finds a letter in Leigh's diary. It's from the private investigator who says that he tracked Leigh down in West Virginia and that she was pregnant but that she died in childbirth. The detective also said that the baby girl survived. The letter was addressed to Tony, but Annie found Leigh's diary in Jillian's room which means that both Tony and Jillian knew about Heaven and they just chose to let her live in poverty until Luke contacted them.

In theory, I could see this change meaning that Tony was lying to Heaven all along because he knew that Leigh had died AND that Heaven was his daughter. But I think the truth is that it was sloppy writing from the ghost writer who didn't care that this contradicted the information in Dark Angel. But this is one of the main reasons why I wondered how much of Leigh's story was created by VCA versus the ghost writer. In Dark Angel, it's established that Tony raped Leigh (setting up the half uncle/half niece reason why Troy and Heaven can't get married), but Tony claims Leigh was the one coming on to him and liked it (which, OF COURSE he would say). In Web of Dreams, Leigh is a sweet innocent girl who gets molested and raped by Tony due to the portrait doll sessions. After Web of Dreams came out, I always wondered how much (if any) of what happened in Web of Dreams was what VCA had in mind.

The other change I remember is that in Dark Angel, Tony said that he pulled Leigh into his office and raped her there. He said they did it at least three times over two months before she ran away. But in Web of Dreams, he rapes her first in her own bedroom and then a second time in Jillian's bedroom before she runs away. This doesn't change the fact that he's a shitbag who raped a 13 year old girl and it doesn't change anything plot wise, but it's just another example of the ghost writer being careless/sloppy.

Heh, and since we're talking about the shitty men in these books, let's not forget about Luke. For all his supposed worship of Leigh, he was fucking Sarah after he married Leigh. Heaven and Tom were only four months apart in age. Leigh gave birth to Heaven 7/8 months after marrying Luke (Heaven was born on February 22nd and she either left Farthy on June 18 according to Dark Angel or in July according to Web of Dreams), so Sarah got pregnant with Tom in September, 2/3 months after Luke and Leigh got married.

I always assumed Tony was lying. Pedophiles always blame the children for their own horrible behavior. However, it would be nice to have a ghost writer who cared a little about continuity. Also, why did the editors not catch these mistakes?

I totally agree about Luke. He is presented as ridiculously sympathetic in the book despite being a totally shitty human being, just be because he lost his “Angel”. I imagine he would have treated Leigh horribly, had she lived. Luke was already cheating on her before the baby was even born.

Snow Apple · May 26, 2021

How did Leigh's diary end up in the mansion anyway? Leigh took it when she ran away. I doubt Luke mailed it back.

Sloppy writing indeed

Edited May 26, 2021 by Snow Apple

ElectricBoogaloo · May 26, 2021

11 hours ago, Snow Apple said:

How did Leigh's diary end up in the mansion anyway? Leigh took it when she ran away. I doubt Luke mailed it back.

Sloppy writing indeed

Yes, it makes no sense that she brought her diary along with her so that she could write about what happened after she left Farthy up until the night she died and then it magically found its way back to Boston and into Jillian's room. It's not like an out of town detective aka a stranger could have just walked into the cabin while Luke and his parents were living there, go through Leigh's stuff, find her diary, and take it back to Tony.

Dr.OO7 · May 31, 2021

On 5/22/2021 at 4:28 PM, Daisy said:

you know, i always knew Paul was scuzzy but i forgot how completely disgusting he was

As had I.

Thanks for the recap.

I also hate how often VC Andrews uses the I'm A Man, I Can't Help It trope to excuse the despicable behavior of nearly every man in her books--rape, infidelity, etc.

Edited May 31, 2021 by Dr.OO7

qtpye · June 1, 2021

10 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

As had I.

Thanks for the recap.

I also hate how often VC Andrews uses the I'm A Man, I Can't Help It trope to excuse the despicable behavior of nearly every man in her books--rape, infidelity, etc.

It is a horribly dated and annoying attitude about rape but probably one very prevalent in a woman of her age and time.

Women have always been held responsible for the sexuality of men by not "tempting them" since "men naturally will not be able to control themselves."

It was worst when the ghostwriter just cut and pasted this into all of his books, regardless of the changing social norms of the time period the story was supposed to take place.

Dr.OO7 · June 1, 2021

Paul was a bastard, but I'm sorry to say that Julia was no prize either. She MURDERED their son to get back at him, a son she dearly loved (but I guess she hated her husband more). Paul himself said she could have easily divorced him and taken the kid, but she had to destroy what he loved the most.

ElectricBoogaloo · June 1, 2021

On 5/25/2021 at 6:47 PM, qtpye said:

I always assumed Tony was lying. Pedophiles always blame the children for their own horrible behavior. However, it would be nice to have a ghost writer who cared a little about continuity. Also, why did the editors not catch these mistakes?

I totally agree about Luke. He is presented as ridiculously sympathetic in the book despite being a totally shitty human being, just be because he lost his “Angel”. I imagine he would have treated Leigh horribly, had she lived. Luke was already cheating on her before the baby was even born.

I totally agree that Tony would say anything to make himself look not quite as bad (despite readily admitting that he raped Leigh). But I just thought that the way VC Andrews had Tony describe Leigh made her sound like Fanny (jealous, flirty, aggressive) while the way Leigh was written by the ghost writer in Web of Dreams was much more like Audrina (innocent, naive, unaware of how beautiful/sexy/desirable she was).

Luke being retconned into a super nice guy in Web of Dreams always annoyed me. He was awful to Sarah and we're supposed to believe that he only became a total jerk because Leigh died (despite knowing that he cheated on Leigh with Sarah which was why Heaven and Tom were so close in age). I think the truth is that he was able to hide what an asshole he was for a few months before Leigh died. Despite Keith and Our Jane ending up with good parents, I don't believe for one second that Luke was being kindhearted and trying to do the best thing for his kids when he sold them like animals. That was to rid himself of kids he didn't want to feed and to make some money. He sold each of them for $500. $2500 was a lot in 1970, let alone in Winnerow in 1970.

Scarlett45 · June 3, 2021

You guys are so great, I am loving all of your opinions on these characters.

Corrine- I do think she was lazy and spoiled. When Christopher Sr was alive, she was young and madly in love, they had Chris/Cathy, but by the time the twins came along the older kids were pretty self sufficient. YES childcare is work but unless you have an illness or a disability of some kind, taking care of your own children, when you have a husband who adores you and is taking care of all of your material and financial needs is perfectly reasonable. What else did she have to do? She wasnt in school or working outside of the home? And I know Chris/Cathy had chores and helped out- they also had a woman to come clean the house once a week. I think it was @CountryGirl who said above, that once she lost Chris, she wasnt interested in any of it any more, even her children. Corrine could've left the children with a neighbor saying she had to visit her dying father and just not come back, but NO she LOCKED THEM UP.

I think Corrine only loved the children as a reflection on herself. Having a beautiful family full of healthy smiling children got her social attention and praise. Without it the kids weren’t important to her.

Paul vs Tony- this is rough, but I have to say Tony is the bigger creep. Paul did have some redeeming qualities. He did support and educate Chris/Carrie with no strings attached and was loving towards them; yes Tony did that for Troy, but Troy was his own brother, you get more points for loving kids that arent bound to you due to the social expectations of bio relatives. Paul did tell Chris/Cathy to be together (he gets a point for that). Both Paul and Tony are rapists, Paul of his wife, Tony of his step daughter.....what Paul did to Cathy was WRONG WRONG WRONG, but on the scale of wrong, Tony was more wrong. Tony sucks on like a 9, Paul sucks on a 7.5.

On 6/1/2021 at 7:22 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Luke being retconned into a super nice guy in Web of Dreams always annoyed me. He was awful to Sarah and we're supposed to believe that he only became a total jerk because Leigh died (despite knowing that he cheated on Leigh with Sarah which was why Heaven and Tom were so close in age). I think the truth is that he was able to hide what an asshole he was for a few months before Leigh died. Despite Keith and Our Jane ending up with good parents, I don't believe for one second that Luke was being kindhearted and trying to do the best thing for his kids when he sold them like animals. That was to rid himself of kids he didn't want to feed and to make some money. He sold each of them for $500. $2500 was a lot in 1970, let alone in Winnerow in 1970.

Luke was evil, period. Keith and Our Jane ended up with good parents by sheer luck and the fact that they were the youngest- not that younger children don't end up in abusive situations (of course they do) but most people (most, not all) who want to care for children not biologically related to them for DECENT HUMANE reasons, prefer younger children. Luke didnt want any of his children, if he had two ounces of decency he could've just worked out of town and sent money back home so they could eat. Heaven and the Grandfather would've been able to hold it together with consistent money each month. But he tried to sexually assault Heaven (a girl he was raising as his daughter) and SOLD his biological daughter Fanny to be raped and impregnated by the creepy Reverend. He knew why the Rev wanted Fanny, what kind of person does that to anyone, much less their own child. His being a decent husband to Stacey and Dad to Drake, fed into the notion that "love of the right woman will change a man's character". NOPE.

Also, Sarah- bio mom to Tom, Fanny, Keith and Our Jane didn't die right? She just left? I looked it up, and she did leave. So I guess likely Tom wasnt legally married to anyone except Angel, or maybe he just didn't marry Stacey.

On 6/1/2021 at 3:03 AM, Dr.OO7 said:

Paul was a bastard, but I'm sorry to say that Julia was no prize either. She MURDERED their son to get back at him, a son she dearly loved (but I guess she hated her husband more). Paul himself said she could have easily divorced him and taken the kid, but she had to destroy what he loved the most.

I would like to believe that Julia was so sick, she had a psychotic break and didn't know what she was doing. If she was in her right mind, and willingly murdered her own son, then I agree with you.

On 5/25/2021 at 3:31 PM, qtpye said:

I think when I was growing up a lot of people thought that if a lady was considered beautiful by the standards of society, than she had it made. Now I feel that life is more complex than that and beauty does not automatically equal happiness. Growing up reading VC’s books might have also had a little something to do with that.

If you don’t mind me asking- how old are you? Because I have noticed this too from discussions with my elders.

If a woman was pretty, she would have a loving husband & a happy life.....I think for women that grew up after second wave feminism we weren’t taught this (I’m 35).

Beauty is no guarantee of anything. Yes it is a currency, but life is more complex than that.

Scarlett45 · June 3, 2021

On 6/1/2021 at 7:22 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But I just thought that the way VC Andrews had Tony describe Leigh made her sound like Fanny (jealous, flirty, aggressive) while the way Leigh was written by the ghost writer in Web of Dreams was much more like Audrina (innocent, naive, unaware of how beautiful/sexy/desirable she was).

This may have been on purpose. In VC Andrews world, the heroines were beautiful, good and pure, but Tony being the scum that he was, was of course going to lie.

qtpye · June 3, 2021

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

You guys are so great, I am loving all of your opinions on these characters.

Corrine- I do think she was lazy and spoiled. When Christopher Sr was alive, she was young and madly in love, they had Chris/Cathy, but by the time the twins came along the older kids were pretty self sufficient. YES childcare is work but unless you have an illness or a disability of some kind, taking care of your own children, when you have a husband who adores you and is taking care of all of your material and financial needs is perfectly reasonable. What else did she have to do? She wasnt in school or working outside of the home? And I know Chris/Cathy had chores and helped out- they also had a woman to come clean the house once a week. I think it was @CountryGirl who said above, that once she lost Chris, she wasnt interested in any of it any more, even her children. Corrine could've left the children with a neighbor saying she had to visit her dying father and just not come back, but NO she LOCKED THEM UP.

I think Corrine only loved the children as a reflection on herself. Having a beautiful family full of healthy smiling children got her social attention and praise. Without it the kids weren’t important to her.

Paul vs Tony- this is rough, but I have to say Tony is the bigger creep. Paul did have some redeeming qualities. He did support and educate Chris/Carrie with no strings attached and was loving towards them; yes Tony did that for Troy, but Troy was his own brother, you get more points for loving kids that arent bound to you due to the social expectations of bio relatives. Paul did tell Chris/Cathy to be together (he gets a point for that). Both Paul and Tony are rapists, Paul of his wife, Tony of his step daughter.....what Paul did to Cathy was WRONG WRONG WRONG, but on the scale of wrong, Tony was more wrong. Tony sucks on like a 9, Paul sucks on a 7.5.

Luke was evil, period. Keith and Our Jane ended up with good parents by sheer luck and the fact that they were the youngest- not that younger children don't end up in abusive situations (of course they do) but most people (most, not all) who want to care for children not biologically related to them for DECENT HUMANE reasons, prefer younger children. Luke didnt want any of his children, if he had two ounces of decency he could've just worked out of town and sent money back home so they could eat. Heaven and the Grandfather would've been able to hold it together with consistent money each month. But he tried to sexually assault Heaven (a girl he was raising as his daughter) and SOLD his biological daughter Fanny to be raped and impregnated by the creepy Reverend. He knew why the Rev wanted Fanny, what kind of person does that to anyone, much less their own child. His being a decent husband to Stacey and Dad to Drake, fed into the notion that "love of the right woman will change a man's character". NOPE.

Also, Sarah- bio mom to Tom, Fanny, Keith and Our Jane didn't die right? She just left? I looked it up, and she did leave. So I guess likely Tom wasnt legally married to anyone except Angel, or maybe he just didn't marry Stacey.

I would like to believe that Julia was so sick, she had a psychotic break and didn't know what she was doing. If she was in her right mind, and willingly murdered her own son, then I agree with you.

If you don’t mind me asking- how old are you? Because I have noticed this too from discussions with my elders.

If a woman was pretty, she would have a loving husband & a happy life.....I think for women that grew up after second wave feminism we weren’t taught this (I’m 35).

Beauty is no guarantee of anything. Yes it is a currency, but life is more complex than that.

Not at all...I am 37 and I too heard it from my elders. Sad to say that some of them probably thought it was better for a woman to be pretty than smart.

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

This may have been on purpose. In VC Andrews world, the heroines were beautiful, good and pure, but Tony being the scum that he was, was of course going to lie.

It is also a typical MO of pedophiles. they groom children and often say that the child wanted the sexual experience.

Scarlett45 · June 3, 2021

@qtpye Thanks- you are so right. Whatever evil people have to tell themselves to be able to sleep at night no? I dont think that we as the reader were ever supposed to buy that Tony was a "good guy", I think we were supposed to see how awful both he and Jillian were for how they treated Leigh/Angel.

Now when it comes to Luke, were we supposed to see him through Heaven's eyes?

Dr.OO7 · June 3, 2021

44 minutes ago, qtpye said:

also a typical MO of pedophiles. they groom children and often say that the child wanted the sexual experience.

That's precisely what I always assumed happened. The first time I read the Casteel series, I read Web Of Dreams first because I didn't realize that it was technically the last book in the series, so I just always thought that Tony was lying through his teeth when he claimed that Leigh was flirting with him.

It sickens me when these creeps use this kind of excuse for their disgusting behavior. Even the girl WAS some little Lolita who was indeed coming on to you, YOU'RE the adult. YOU are the one who needs to have the common sense and decency to not respond to this.

CountryGirl · June 3, 2021

Yes to so many of these posts, especially this:

2 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

That's precisely what I always assumed happened. The first time I read the Casteel series, I read Web Of Dreams first because I didn't realize that it was technically the last book in the series, so I just always thought that Tony was lying through his teeth when he claimed that Leigh was flirting with him.

It sickens me when these creeps use this kind of excuse for their disgusting behavior. Even the girl WAS some little Lolita who was indeed coming on to you, YOU'RE the adult. YOU are the one who needs to have the common sense and decency to not respond to this.

Pre-teens and teens will test their boundaries as much, if not more so than toddlers, with little thought of consequences. and should be able to trust the adults in their lives to not take advantage of their innocence (even if they think they know it all).

It grossed me out so much to read Tony talking about Leigh having more sexuality in her little finger than Jillian did in her entire body. I half think the reason he married Jillian (vs merely having an affair with her) was because of Leigh.

And going back to the Tony vs Paul debate, I do have to agree that Paul scrapes up a few measly points above Tony. Tony's vile actions toward Leigh, who was even younger than Cathy and clearly unwanted (not that Cathy could consent, considering her age and the vulnerable position she was in), he also tried to rape Heaven (pregnant with Annie at the time) and Annie herself. I don't give two hoots that he was clearly unhinged with Annie and a bit with Heaven - he was still very intent on raping his barely in her teens stepdaughter, Leigh. I wish Fanny had ordered up a fire ala Corrine for Farthy, but death by fire was too good for Tony.

Scarlett45 · June 3, 2021

12 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Yes to so many of these posts, especially this:

Pre-teens and teens will test their boundaries as much, if not more so than toddlers, with little thought of consequences. and should be able to trust the adults in their lives to not take advantage of their innocence (even if they think they know it all).

It grossed me out so much to read Tony talking about Leigh having more sexuality in her little finger than Jillian did in her entire body. I half think the reason he married Jillian (vs merely having an affair with her) was because of Leigh.

And going back to the Tony vs Paul debate, I do have to agree that Paul scrapes up a few measly points above Tony. Tony's vile actions toward Leigh, who was even younger than Cathy and clearly unwanted (not that Cathy could consent, considering her age and the vulnerable position she was in), he also tried to rape Heaven (pregnant with Annie at the time) and Annie herself. I don't give two hoots that he was clearly unhinged with Annie and a bit with Heaven - he was still very intent on raping his barely in her teens stepdaughter, Leigh. I wish Fanny had ordered up a fire ala Corrine for Farthy, but death by fire was too good for Tony.

OOOOOUUU that would be amazing if Fanny had burned down the house!

Yes, the gross gross statements about Leigh, Tony could FUCK OFF. I will never believe that a 12/13yrs old girl is going to be "flirting" or coming onto her step father unless she had been abused in some way and was acting out. Yes, so many of these creeps are attracted to single Moms for the access to the child to abuse.

Now yes, I do think an older teen girl (like Cathy) could find an older man in his 20s or 30s very attractive and flirt with him (like she would a boy her age), but even in that case, his ass is an ADULT and she is a CHILD and he should nip that in the bud.

Daisy · June 4, 2021

11 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

This may have been on purpose. In VC Andrews world, the heroines were beautiful, good and pure, but Tony being the scum that he was, was of course going to lie.

That's why I really wish VC wrote Leigh's story (if we even got it). I honestly wondered (again not excusing Tony's nastiness touching a child) - if Leigh was supposed to be a Lolita type girl in regards to Tony vs. well her being Leigh.

7 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Even the girl WAS some little Lolita who was indeed coming on to you, YOU'RE the adult. YOU are the one who needs to have the common sense and decency to not respond to this.

exactly -
the reason why I kinda wanted the Lolita angle - because it would be different, you know what i mean? I always feel that there was always an undershade of darkness from the Momma types. Corrine freaking locked her children up in the attic. Lillian hid her mentally challenged daughter away and broke Laura Sue for "sleeping" with Bill Cutler. (we never got what Laura Sue actually was - she was too Ghostwriter-ized) and Jillian groomed her daughter to be sexually assaulted by her younger husband so she wouldn't have to have sex. But because Leigh was 12-14 during those events - i always wonder if VC would have 'dark angel-ized" her a tiny bit. that's all instead of Angel Leigh (I do hope i am explaining this right)

5 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

I half think the reason he married Jillian (vs merely having an affair with her) was because of Leigh.

and it makes you wonder (a lot) did Jillian pick up on this and go "hey works for me!!" she wasn't a dumb one, that Jillian

CountryGirl · June 7, 2021

Here's a fun one I thought of.

Which character's POV book would you most have wanted to read (and see the Lifetime movie, of course, to stay on topic)?

If it's too hard to choose, then I'll allow (LOL) top 3.

Corinne (Dollanganger series)
Laura Sue (Dawn series)
Troy (Heaven series)

andromeda331 · June 7, 2021

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Here's a fun one I thought of.

Which character's POV book would you most have wanted to read (and see the Lifetime movie, of course, to stay on topic)?

If it's too hard to choose, then I'll allow (LOL) top 3.

Corinne (Dollanganger series)

Laura Sue (Dawn series)

Troy (Heaven series)

Those three would be a great choice for a book and/or Lifetime movie. How did Corinne end up the way she was? What exactly was her relationship with her father? I'd also like to see the First Corinne. We don't really get much of a picture of what she was like other think Malcolm's creepy obsession with his mother. What was she really like? Why did she leave? Was she another girl who was "groomed" by Garland the way Alicia was?

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Lifetime's VC Andrews Movies Topic (Flowers In The Attic, The Dollangangers, The Casteels, etc) - General Discussion

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