S03.E18: Public Enemy

[AyChihuahua]

 

Maybe Malcolm hid a bunch of money really, really well and all the people trying to sue couldn't find anything other than the corporate assets.

Oh he absolutely had hidden assets.  But the government and the buttload of plaintiffs after the Undertaking could also probably go after Merlyn Global, because he used Merlyn Global to perpetrate his crimes.  And Thea, seemingly, inherited.  Inheritance involves taxes and courts, etc.  He would have no non-hidden assets for to inherit (although she could of course just take his hidden assets and keep them hidden).

 

In law school I would get into long debates about property law and the rules of entry for vampires in Buffy.  It's all very general because we can't know what the actual laws of whatever whatever state Starling City is supposed to be in, but it's fun to think about.  As long as the writers don't get completely ridiculous on the subject, which unfortunately these writers definitely do. 

Edited April 5, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[statsgirl]

I now have this image of Thea having a bunch of MMs money hidden under her mattress.

 

On the other hand, we're told that Oliver inherited 3 or 4 million dollars from his mother's life insurance, so presumably Thea would have inherited the same.  Unless they could prove that she knew about Oliver being the Arrow, I doubt they could touch that.

[nksarmi]

The more I think about it - the more this manhunt for Oliver seems weak.  I could understand a few episodes of the police hunting the Arrow with Quentin individually looking into Oliver, trying to find evidence that wouldn't also implicate Laurel and himself in the process.  But they definitely sacrificed logic for dramatic effect yet again.  I'm almost afraid to rewatch season one to see if it was like this - I don't remember it being like this.

 

Heck there were a lot of times in season two where I couldn't understand why Oliver wouldn't tell his mother or Thea that he knew Slade from the island and he was a dangerous guy.....or why Oliver trusted Isabel (was it Isabel?) with his company as much as he did (because really - who couldn't see that coming?) or why Thea wouldn't sign the damn paperwork to protect their assets or why all of their personal assets were tied up in the company to begin with (seriously, the house, the art, the jewelry, etc... - the Queens really didn't have money/assets separate from their company?).....but I was still scratching my head less then than I have been this season.  I really hope season four doesn't get any worse.

Edited April 5, 2015 by nksarmi

[AyChihuahua]

Yeah, and they'd have to be able to show, at least with some degree of accuracy, that her assets are enabling his crimes.  Asset forfeiture laws are pretty broad (and in my opinion, insanely draconian in this country), but it's not like my assets are subject to forfeiture (or even freezing) simply because my brother is a criminal.  My guess is (1) these people don't care one iota about any of the legal stuff being remotely accurate; and (2) it's possible a very temporary freeze could be allowed during the manhunt, which was for the Arrow, not Oliver, all they have re Oliver being the Arrow is the word of a snitch, so the freeze probably still wouldn't be allowed, but see item (1), above.

[Lii]

Did they even get any new judges and other assorted public servants after Brick went full Brock? Or is Laurel's Daddy™ the actual last public servant left in the city at this point and thereby the de facto leader until saner minds prevail? I know he was shouting at someone about the budget this week but for all we know he was trying to call in the freaking national guard (or Amanda Waller).

[BunsenBurner]

I know he was shouting at someone about the budget this week but for all we know he was trying to call in the freaking national guard (or Amanda Waller).

He wasn't calling the national guard. They wouldn't do it for Brick why would they do it for Arrow?

[BkWurm1]

2) it's possible a very temporary freeze could be allowed during the manhunt, which was for the Arrow, not Oliver, all they have re Oliver being the Arrow is the word of a snitch, so the freeze probably still wouldn't be allowed, but see item

 

Yeah, I would go with this.  Like you said, some of the forfeiture laws are incredibly broad (aren't there entire cities that get their budget just from stopping cars and confiscating cash on the threat of accusing someone of drug running?)  I'd think they could get quick approval that could get overturned assuming Thea could afford a lawyer (or Felicity got around to unfreezing it)

 

Honestly, money should never be an issue in an emergency.   I'm sure they have their eye on some shady front company that could float them a "loan".  

[Lii]

He wasn't calling the national guard. They wouldn't do it for Brick why would they do it for Arrow?

Because MANPAIN.

Also, when Brick was doing his thing, there was still a mayor, as well as various other assorted actual qualified city leaders. I'm pretty sure at this point in the narrative, between Brick and the LOA killing every official in sight, Quentin is actually running the city, and he is an idiot right now.

He probably TRIED to get help from every outside agency he had the phone number for. Doesn't mean they didn't laugh at him and hang up.

[BkWurm1]

Thing is, is he (Lance) really from the standpoint of the police being an idiot?  In some ways the police are more brilliant than they should be since they are unknowingly right.   Sounded to me like if Ra's thought Oliver was permanently up the river, he would stop his impersonation of the Arrow.   He might not give up on Oliver even in prison but his tactics where the city is being punished for Oliver not being grateful enough would stop.

 

Even if the SCPD put all their efforts into rounding up the true miscreants, they would either a) fail and probably rack up a body count among the officers or b) catch the bad guys but new ones would just show up to replace any that are caught.  If they kept their trust in the Arrow this problem they are having would only escalate.  By going after him, they actually are saving lives.

 

Of course they don't know this but either way, Lance isn't technically wrong to go after the Arrow.  He is still a known murderer, they just chose to in the past overlook his past crimes.  They are not under any obligation to keep following this protocol and Captain Lance has now decided that the only way to put a complete stop to the growing escalation of problems the city is facing is to stop the Arrow.  And he's absolutely right even if for the wrong reasons. 

 

The thing makes me buy into this police hunt is that Lance isn't blinded by his emotions. He's not under the false belief that Oliver is the guy that killed the mayor or the other criminals or at least that is not the bigger issue. He sees that they, the police, the ones sworn to uphold the law, turned their back on upholding the law in the case of the vigilante and now he sees bigger and broader problems and in his mind it all starts with them failing to do their duty in the first place in regards the vigilante.   He's cleaning up town and since he thinks all the problems started with the Arrow, then all the solutions start with apprehending the Arrow.  

 

That the Arrow is Oliver Queen is the reason he lost it and hit him and yeah, that Lance crossing his professional lines but him hunting him down, that's exactly what Lance feels anyone that has dedicated their lives to the law should have done and holds himself accountable for not having done that all along.  Is it fair that Quentin changed his mind from the black and white to the grey and blames Oliver for changing it?  No.  That part is the grieving overwrought father taking his pain out on the Arrow but him deciding to go back to the strictly black and white assessment of the law, that I can't hold against Quentin. 

 

With Sara's death and Laurel's lies and what Lance feels as the Arrow's betrayal (I suppose a real partner would NOT have kept that from him) Quentin doesn't have a lot to cling to and so it makes a lot of sense for him to fall back on the clear cut understanding of right and wrong as dictate by law.  It's the only tool his has left to fight against as he (and the city) spin out of control. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by BkWurm1

[Lii]

Any time a police officer, let alone the chief of police, leads with his emotions and not the actual law and correct legal procedure, he is being an idiot. None of the evidence he collects right now will hold up in court. No confession he obtains after punching Oliver in the face will be held up. He's flouting procedure left and right because he's leading with his heart, not his mind, and that is ultimately what is going to screw him in the end. You can't just order an entire police force to shoot to kill on sight. NOT A THING. But, manpain. This is why checks and balances exist, and this is why when you take them away, you get a city in chaos. Literally the only other person left who currently has the authority to stand up to him is Laurel, and the best she's got up her sleeve is BUT DAAAAADDDDDYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!! So very, very screwed. Brick started it, Ra's nudged it along, but the Lance family brought in the wrecking ball.

[Gwen-Stacys]

But she didn't add "I'm the one you should be mad at.  They didn't tell you because I asked them not to."  She's letting TA take the hit for her decision and it's not only hurting them, it's hurting Quentin, and not just because he refused Felicity's phone call and the police station got shot up.  Quentin feels betrayed not just by the Arrow but by Team Arrow, and without Dinah and Laurel, he feels like he has no one now, he's entirely alone.  Laurel taking her blame on herself might make he feel he wasn't abandoned by everyone, including "the closest thing to a partner [he's] got."

 

This is a problem with Laurel's ascension to Black Canary that I don't think the writers get -- that she's not a hero yet not because she can't fight as well as the others but because she's got more flaws than them.  Having her take the responsibility that is her would go a long way towards that superhero the producers want so badly.

 

Okay, yea sure. But, in that situation where her dad has her at gunpoint....that probably wasn't the best of time? I'm not saying that she was ever in any danger of him shooting her, persay, just that in that moment...she was just trying to get through to him. In that moment, they were all fucked, not because her father was mad at her, but because he was mad at The Arrow. To be honest, from the characterization of Laurel that we've seen so far (and not the one that some people want to see), Laurel does take the blame for the things that she does and she should (and even some things that she shouldn't: IE when Oliver told her, a struggling alcoholic, to go take a drink because she was rightly upset that he showed up to a family dinner with her sister. Say what you will about Laurel, but Sara and Ollie were wrong in that situation).

 

IDK, sometimes it feels like Laurel can't breathe without people calling Malarky on her. It's like a broken record.

[apinknightmare]

Didn't Laurel tell Quentin he was just mad at the Arrow for lying to him about Sara when she and Quentin were in his office, not when he had her at gunpoint?

Quentin does have a right to be upset with Oliver for not telling him about Sara, but it would to a lot for Laurel IMO if she fessed up that she was the one who asked him to keep it a secret. Not that that absolves Oliver or anyone else of their part, but it would be nice to see her admit that to Quentin, instead of acting like Oliver not telling him was something that he did independently, without her asking him to.

I get why we can't have that at all, because the plot needed Quentin to get to the point where he's so pissed off he can't see straight, but...eh. Stupid storyline remains stupid. Stupid as all hell.

Edited April 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[quarks]

Ok, this does bring up an interesting question, though: who is in nominal charge of Starling right now?

 

The mayor is dead. We haven't seen the DA all season; all we've gotten is the offhand comment that the DA is on vacation. And apparently never came back. I am assuming the DA is hiding in Tahiti as a safety precaution, something that on this show I thoroughly approve of.  We have seen some people who seem to be on the city council or something similar, though at least two of them have died since December.  

 

So is the city in the hands of the Channel 52 people, gleefully working to create carnage for ratings?  

[kismet]

Ok, this does bring up an interesting question, though: who is in nominal charge of Starling right now?

The mayor is dead. We haven't seen the DA all season; all we've gotten is the offhand comment that the DA is on vacation. And apparently never came back. I am assuming the DA is hiding in Tahiti as a safety precaution, something that on this show I thoroughly approve of. We have seen some people who seem to be on the city council or something similar, though at least two of them have died since December.

So is the city in the hands of the Channel 52 people, gleefully working to create carnage for ratings?

Well if we follow the money & tv press conference, it might be ray Palmer but even he's in hospital.

So no one probably. LL will probably step up and take charge.

[AyChihuahua]

"Ok, this does bring up an interesting question, though: who is in nominal charge of Starling right now?"

 

Most likely the City Council.  In most cities they are the Congress to the Mayor's president.  Or maybe the deputy mayor, if there is one.  The person who really would not be in charge is a random police captain.  Captain isn't even that high a rank in police departments. 

 

This whole storyline is just part of the stupidity lasagna of the season (that really began, for me, when Oliver et al. blindly accepted Malcolm's statement that the LOA would blame Thea for killing Sara, even though Malcolm's ENTIRE PLAN to get Oliver to fight Ra's (a fight he STATED HE KNEW OLIVER COULD NOT WIN) hinged on Thea being in danger from the LOA because of that...and of course later we found out from Nyssa that, SHOCKER, Malcolm lied).  I hate this season so much.  I hate this season like Kirk hated Khan (and in the reboot like Spock hated Khan).

Edited April 6, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[nksarmi]

"Ok, this does bring up an interesting question, though: who is in nominal charge of Starling right now?"

 

Most likely the City Council.  In most cities they are the Congress to the Mayor's president.  Or maybe the deputy mayor, if there is one.  The person who really would not be in charge is a random police captain.  Captain isn't even that high a rank in police departments. 

 

This whole storyline is just part of the stupidity lasagna of the season (that really began, for me, when Oliver et al. blindly accepted Malcolm's statement that the LOA would blame Thea for killing Sara, even though Malcolm's ENTIRE PLAN to get Oliver to fight Ra's (a fight he STATED HE KNEW OLIVER COULD NOT WIN) hinged on Thea being in danger from the LOA because of that...and of course later we found out from Nyssa that, SHOCKER, Malcolm lied).  I hate this season so much.  I hate this season like Kirk hated Khan (and in the reboot like Spock hated Khan).

Love!  And yes, the season did derail when it was revealed that Thea killed Sara and Oliver went off to go die at Ra's hands.  I hope they can rescue it and do better next season.

[statsgirl]

Isn't there a deputy mayor?  And in season 1, wasn't there a Chief of Police? They one Quentin fought with when the Chief was insisting they go with the "there's only one Hood" plan and Quentin was insisting there was a copycat archer?

 

 

This whole storyline is just part of the stupidity lasagna of the season (that really began, for me, when Oliver et al. blindly accepted Malcolm's statement that the LOA would blame Thea for killing Sara, even though Malcolm's ENTIRE PLAN to get Oliver to fight Ra's (a fight he STATED HE KNEW OLIVER COULD NOT WIN) hinged on Thea being in danger from the LOA because of that...and of course later we found out from Nyssa that, SHOCKER, Malcolm lied).  I hate this season so much.  I hate this season like Kirk hated Khan (and in the reboot like Spock hated Khan).

They lost me in The Magician when Oliver let Malcolm go because Thea wanted him and "no prison can hold me".  And that was long before they found out that Thea was in danger.  The stupidity of this season never ends.

 

 

Say what you will about Laurel, but Sara and Ollie were wrong in that situation).

 

IDK, sometimes it feels like Laurel can't breathe without people calling Malarky on her. It's like a broken record.

As I recall a lot of us said that Sara and Oliver were wrong in that situation.

 

But in this one, Quentin is angry at Oliver and Felicity and the whole of Team Arrow because they did what Laurel asked them to do. On a show where Oliver accepts blame for everything especially what happened to Sara, and Roy is sacrificing himself to save Oliver, Laurel not saying to her father "Dad, I asked them not to tell you. It was my decision." stands out.

Edited April 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

"They lost me in The Magician when Oliver let Malcolm go because Thea wanted him and "no prison can hold me".  And that was long before they found out that Thea was in danger.  The stupidity of this season never ends."

 

Maybe even as early as Laurel not just calling the cops when Sara died, and, also in the Magician (agree re the no-prison stupidity), why, why did Oliver tell Nyssa Thea was Merlyn's daughter?  Nothing terrible has come out of that, yet, but there was no upside to telling her.

 

"IDK, sometimes it feels like Laurel can't breathe without people calling Malarky on her. It's like a broken record."

 

If she would stop doing stupid, selfish, and narcissistic things, people would stop calling her stupid, selfish, and narcissistic.  I'm on record as saying that IMO every single regular character has been tremendously stupid this season (even Diggle, like hey dude, stop quitting every two episodes), but she's been the most selfish.  Not telling her father that she TOLD THEM not to tell him about Sara is a huge omission, and there is absolutely zero excuse for her utter failure to take responsibility for her own decision.  People are not making up things to call her on...these are all her in-show actions. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[Genki]

I think when Laurel doesn't get called out, or does not suffer any permanent consequences in show, for her actions, we pick up on it more here because it is frustrating when other characters suffer horribly, sometimes for things that are not their fault.

Laurel made the call, and while she feels bad that her dad is mad at her, it doesn't seem like it is equal to the blow back Team Arrow is suffering. There was no sense that Lance would arrest Laurel when he had her cornered, it felt like a parent trying to control/ threaten their delinquent teenager.

Oliver is being deliberately targeted and the in script reason is the fact that he didn't tell Lance about Sara because he was respecting Laurel's wishes.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Genki

[nksarmi]

I think when Laurel doesn't get called out, or does not suffer any permanent consequences in show, for her actions, we pick up on it more here because it is frustrating when other characters suffer horribly, sometimes for things that are not their fault.

Laurel made the call, and while she feels bad that her dad is mad at her, it doesn't seem like it is equal to the blow back Team Arrow is suffering. There was no sense that Lance would arrest Laurel when he had her cornered, it felt like a parent trying to control/ threaten their delinquent teenager.

Oliver is being deliberately targeted and the in script reason is the fact that he didn't tell Lance about Sara because he was respecting Laurel's wishes.

 

1. I am starting to think the writers forgot it was Laurel's idea to begin with because it is something Oliver would do (not tell Lance about Sara).  I don't think Laurel would have even looked bad if she said, "Daddy, I didn't know what to do or how to tell you.  You have the heart problem and you almost lost yourself when Sara died before.  And we had no idea who did it...."  I mean, I thought it was wrong of Laurel to lie to her dad, but at least these are understandable reasons.

 

2. Lance's rage would have made SO much more sense if Ra's had told him Merlyn was responsible for Sara's death and that he (Ras) was making sure Merlyn suffered before he got the justice he deserved for Sara and the Undertaking....but then the Arrow showed up and demanded Merlyn's release.  What kind of hero to Starling City is that?  Then tell Lance the Arrow is Oliver Queen and we have very REAL reasons for Quentin to lose his shit. ***And I should note that I would have been completely on Lance's side if he punched Oliver for THIS reason.  I have wanted Oliver to pay for this "let's keep Merlyn alive to save Thea's soul" crap for the last several episodes.

 

3. If this happened, we have a much more interesting news conference if Quentin tells the media that the man responsible for the Undertaking two years ago is alive and well and the man they thought was a hero (Arrow) has been harboring him and keeping him from justice.  Then they might even have had a believable reason to freeze Thea's assets.

 

I think it is SO frustrating that the writers have more compelling storytelling options that would make their action so much more intriguing, but they overlook them in favor of plot points that don't really make much sense.

Edited April 7, 2015 by nksarmi

[Chaser]

Writers are like "Screw the Logic, Feel the Emotion!"

 

Audience is like "Shove your Emotion, I tripped in a Plot Hole!."

[Starfish35]

1. I am starting to think the writers forgot it was Laurel's idea to begin with because it is something Oliver would do (not tell Lance about Sara).  I don't think Laurel would have even looked bad if she said, "Daddy, I didn't know what to do or how to tell you.  You have the heart problem and you almost lost yourself when Sara died before.  And we had no idea who did it...."  I mean, I thought it was wrong of Laurel to lie to her dad, but at least these are understandable reasons.

 

2. Lance's rage would have made SO much more sense if Ra's had told him Merlyn was responsible for Sara's death and that he (Ras) was making sure Merlyn suffered before he got the justice he deserved for Sara and the Undertaking....but then the Arrow showed up and demanded Merlyn's release.  What kind of hero to Starling City is that?  Then tell Lance the Arrow is Oliver Queen and we have very REAL reasons for Quentin to lose his shit. ***And I should note that I would have been completely on Lance's side if he punched Oliver for THIS reason.  I have wanted Oliver to pay for this "let's keep Merlyn alive to save Thea's soul" crap for the last several episodes.

 

3. If this happened, we have a much more interesting news conference if Quentin tells the media that the man responsible for the Undertaking two years ago is alive and well and the man they thought was a hero (Arrow) has been harboring him and keeping him from justice.  Then they might even have had a believable reason to freeze Thea's assets.

 

I think it is SO frustrating that the writers have more compelling storytelling options that would make their action so much more intriguing, but they overlook them in favor of plot points that don't really make much sense.

I'm not sure I agree that Oliver would have kept the secret from Quentin. I mean, yes, Oliver does love his secrets, but in this case IIRC Oliver wanted Quentin to be told right away and Laurel said no. But then, I'm still mad at the show for the stupidity of not having had Laurel call anyone when Sara was killed. Not calling the cops is one thing - I can see an argument for that. But not calling Oliver? Right that minute? I just can't.

However, the rest of your post I 100% agree with. Quentin's anger would make so much more sense if he knew about Malcolm. It's so so stupid.

[dtissagirl]

1. I am starting to think the writers forgot it was Laurel's idea to begin with because it is something Oliver would do (not tell Lance about Sara).  I don't think Laurel would have even looked bad if she said, "Daddy, I didn't know what to do or how to tell you.  You have the heart problem and you almost lost yourself when Sara died before.  And we had no idea who did it...."  I mean, I thought it was wrong of Laurel to lie to her dad, but at least these are understandable reasons.

 

I don't think they forgot. I think they wrote themselves into a corner that they can't get out of now. Because *Malcolm* is a walking plot hole that turns Laurel and Quentin into this plot-driven mess.

 

If Laurel tells Quentin she asked Team Arrow to keep quiet about Sara's death, she gets sucked into a vortex of an entire new set of lies. "We didn't know who did it" makes Quentin ask a very important question next: does Laurel know now? And then comes another question: well, did Laurel do something about it?

 

And Laurel DOES know now what Merlyn did to Thea and Sara. And well, she did help Thea hand him to the LoA, but Oliver screwed that up for plot, and now, for whatever reason, Laurel can't go after Malcolm. She can't let Quentin know about Malcolm. There's absolutely no logical explanation to why she, as an ADA, is not putting all of her efforts into nailing Malcolm for the Undertaking, and maybe avenging/seeking justice for Sara while doing that. There's also no in-story explanation as to why she didn't tell Quentin about Malcolm. But there are two pretty big external reasons:

 

1. Guggenheim has admitted he didn't think they'd get such a huge backlash about Laurel lying to Quentin. But they did. So they cannot repeat that story beat. She can't outright lie to him anymore. So they're going the lie of omission route, and doing a little bit of sleight of hand by having Quentin go after Oliver. Because Oliver is actually REALLY good at taking blame for things other people should be copping out to.

 

2. There's obviously some future plot point the EPs need to get to that demands Malcolm is chilling out on Thea's couch right now, instead of running from Laurel and Quentin.

 

Hence, plot-driven Lances.

[nksarmi]

I don't think they forgot. I think they wrote themselves into a corner that they can't get out of now. Because *Malcolm* is a walking plot hole that turns Laurel and Quentin into this plot-driven mess.

 

If Laurel tells Quentin she asked Team Arrow to keep quiet about Sara's death, she gets sucked into a vortex of an entire new set of lies. "We didn't know who did it" makes Quentin ask a very important question next: does Laurel know now? And then comes another question: well, did Laurel do something about it?

 

And Laurel DOES know now what Merlyn did to Thea and Sara. And well, she did help Thea hand him to the LoA, but Oliver screwed that up for plot, and now, for whatever reason, Laurel can't go after Malcolm. She can't let Quentin know about Malcolm. There's absolutely no logical explanation to why she, as an ADA, is not putting all of her efforts into nailing Malcolm for the Undertaking, and maybe avenging/seeking justice for Sara while doing that. There's also no in-story explanation as to why she didn't tell Quentin about Malcolm. But there are two pretty big external reasons:

 

1. Guggenheim has admitted he didn't think they'd get such a huge backlash about Laurel lying to Quentin. But they did. So they cannot repeat that story beat. She can't outright lie to him anymore. So they're going the lie of omission route, and doing a little bit of sleight of hand by having Quentin go after Oliver. Because Oliver is actually REALLY good at taking blame for things other people should be copping out to.

 

2. There's obviously some future plot point the EPs need to get to that demands Malcolm is chilling out on Thea's couch right now, instead of running from Laurel and Quentin.

 

Hence, plot-driven Lances.

You must be right.

 

I mean, for a long time Laurel didn't know who killed Sara.  When she finds out who did, she a) considers killing him herself and b) watches as Nyssa takes him off to receive punishment even Laurel couldn't dream up.  So up until this point, I'm fine.  It's the point where Oliver returns with Merlyn that I want Laurel to go stomping into her dad's office - tell him everything and the two of them together to figure out how to arrest Merlyn  (this would have worked well while he was injured!).

 

Legally, I am not sure Laurel or Quentin ever had Sara declared alive.  So there might be issues in trying to seek justice specifically for her death - particularly when you factor in the fact that Thea did the actual crime.  I mean the complicated matter of having Thea testify, bringing in an expert to talk about the plant/drug that makes people open to suggestion, etc... in a trial would be complicated.  But Laurel could put Merlyn on trial for the undertaking.

 

Now there is the "no prison could hold me" line, but damn - give it a try!  Or call Barry and have them take Merlyn over to the metahuman prison.  I can actually see why Oliver would want to keep Merlyn and Slade separated so the island prison is not an option.  But even just letting Laurel tell Quentin so they could arrest Merlyn publically would have filled in that plot hole.  Then sure, let Merlyn escape for your future plot development.

 

The problem I see in all of this is that it separates Laurel from Team Arrow.  How can she do the right thing with her dad in regards to Merlyn and still be part of Oliver's team against Ra's?  Now, I think she could have still be a road block to Ray when he goes after Oliver (I can believe Laurel would simultaneously want to take down Merlyn AND protect Team Arrow), but I don't think Oliver would have tolerated her having her dad arrest Merlyn from Thea's apartment.  Oliver does not like it when his decisions are questioned lol.

 

Still I would have gladly sacrificed seeing Laurel in costume for a few episodes to have this Merlyn plot resolved in a satisfying manner. When he healed up, he could have escaped and still played his part in the LOA story.  They would have just needed to write the Quentin goes into a rage over finding out Oliver is the Arrow, but it was weak enough as is so I'm sure they could have still done that story.

[kismet]

Malcolm is the plot hole that got them into this mess and the plot hole that will get them out of this mess.

 

Because I do love QL, I have been trying to figure out how he is gonna get himself out of the multiple tiered level mistakes he made with this manhunt. As people have mentioned he has very little evidence by which to actually legally orchestrate a shoot to kill massive manhunt. Nevermind, his evidence becomes even less solid for prosecution. But we could be here forever talking about criminal justice mistakes, oversteps and some of the stuff that he did right as well.

 

I believe the writers chose to go the over emotional vengeful for my daughters and the destruction of my family life as opposed to the logical MM harboring route/SL death because they are trying to give themselves a way to let the character out. If they present a solid, factual & logical case then the Arrow has to remain in custody & stand trial, he also has to remain unmasked. However, if they can say that the stress of the last few weeks somehow triggered in QL a setback in his drinking or some of the shotty policework he did years back as a result of the SL death/divorce/alcohol than the whole case can be dropped. The only person that would then be compromised QL.

 

Once QL get his head back on straight (you know when the plot dictates it)

likely when he meets with Joe West, tries to help Roy, whoever's death happens &/or SL returns.

I believe he will come out and rescind some of his accusations. I believe his best excuse will be that he was not thinking clearly and was being distracted by personal matters at home. No concrete evidence & a preexisting emotional vendetta against OQ are valid and easily identifiable reasons that case should be dropped and why he chose to pursue the wrong person with so much My guess would be that he would then head off to rehab & lose whatever higher titles he gained this season. That way in s4 they can reset him as still their connection to the police, but not the highest ranking officer so that he can actually get back out in the field. Plus IMO

he is on the short list with Lyla to become the floater between the 3 shows, so this is the writers way of releasing him from his SC police duties.

[Gwen-Stacys]

As I recall a lot of us said that Sara and Oliver were wrong in that situation.

 

But in this one, Quentin is angry at Oliver and Felicity and the whole of Team Arrow because they did what Laurel asked them to do. On a show where Oliver accepts blame for everything especially what happened to Sara, and Roy is sacrificing himself to save Oliver, Laurel not saying to her father "Dad, I asked them not to tell you. It was my decision." stands out.

 

I'd like to think that, but I remember people applauding Oliver for "finally telling [Laurel] off." (and, to be fair, that might've been more TWOP than here)

 

And about your second point *points to response below*

 

If she would stop doing stupid, selfish, and narcissistic things, people would stop calling her stupid, selfish, and narcissistic.  I'm on record as saying that IMO every single regular character has been tremendously stupid this season (even Diggle, like hey dude, stop quitting every two episodes), but she's been the most selfish.  Not telling her father that she TOLD THEM not to tell him about Sara is a huge omission, and there is absolutely zero excuse for her utter failure to take responsibility for her own decision.  People are not making up things to call her on...these are all her in-show actions. 

I guess I just fail to see how she's ever been anymore stupid, selfish, or narcisitic than anyone else on this show. But to each their own, I suppose. And, I repeat, in that particular moment, why would she have pointed it out? It wasn't her point! Her point was that her father was being petty as hell. And, if I recall correctly, she never once threw anyone else under the bus when she told Quinten. There was no "We thought it was best if you didn't know" she was ver "I thought....I did..." etc etc. So like I said, I guess we'll just have to see this issue differentl. And I'll have to deal with the fact that I'll never understand (and was even warned about) the hate boner the majority of this board has for Laurel and if I want to continue joining in on discussions here.

 

And, to be honest, a lot of the issues most of us have with the way characters act on this show can be summed up with a simple "Because...plot!"

Edited April 7, 2015 by Gwen-Stacys

[nksarmi]

Gwen-Stacys - not everyone hates Laurel.  I don't.  But I think for many people - she is one of the worst things about the show.  And I reluctantly might have to agree to that - but only because her path to BC has been really poorly done (as is being discussed in other threads).  There are so many things they could have done better and it seems like there have been times when the writers WANTED you to dislike Laurel. 

 

If you add in the fact that a lot of people seemed to have LOVED Sara, then the seemingly senseless killing of Sara, just to make Laurel Lance Black Canary breeds more loathing.  That part isn't really the character's fault, but it is a huge mistake on the part of the writers as far as I'm concerned.

 

In regards to rather or not Laurel is more selfish, stupid, or narcissistic than other characters on the show - well, by far she is.  I mean, let's break it down....

 

Oliver: Has been really stupid this season, has had unbelievable motivations, is hugely arrogant and total control freak, and was a total dirtbag pre-island.  BUT, we still have two seasons of love built up with him, get to see him be noble in flashbacks, and still get to admire him saving the city occasionally.  He is grating on me this season a bit, but I can still hold out hope he will improve dramatically when some of the plots from this season have been resolved.

 

Diggle: Great, noble guy who is hard to find fault with.  I hated him telling Oliver not to reveal his secret to Thea at the start of the season (that seemed out of character for him too) and I thought him going to NP with Oliver to help break out Merlyn was weak sauce because from what I could tell - they had no exit plan.  But other than that, even this season which has been bad for most characters - its hard not to love Diggle.

 

Felicity: She is just pure awesomeness and has been from the moment she was introduced.  I got a little mad at her when she wouldn't listen to Oliver after her returned from the dead, but since Oliver wasn't really conveying just how serious the situation was (like he almost died and Ra's is way more of a badass than he originally thought) - I couldn't really blame her for her irrational ranting.  I also don't blame her for her involvement with Ray like at all.  I don't think he is nearly as bad as some claim (electrocuting Roy aside) and she deserved to go out and try to find some happy.  The realization that she loves Oliver and can't be with someone else until she deals with that is going to be hard for her to process.  But all in all, I don't think Felicity is a selfish or stupid character and she is one of the people most in tune with other people around her.

 

Roy: The boy is downright hero material - maybe more than Oliver Queen ever was prior to the island.  He cares about other people, loves Thea wholeheartedly, cares so much about Oliver he would go to jail to protect him, works with Laurel because he understands her need to go out in the field even if she isn't 100% ready, and he is a steady teammate.  He really has few flaws in my eyes - and he is about as far from selfish and narcissistic as they come.

 

Thea: She is probably the closest to Laurel as any other major cast member, but she is a teenager who is growing up.  She started the show at 17 and is all of 20 now.  Yes, she as a spoiled little rich kid, but she was a spoiled little rich kid whose father and brother died and whose mom withdrew from her emotionally and was basically left a lone for five years. And the thing about Thea is that she has - for the most part - only been shown moving forward, growing up, becoming more of a caring, loving person and moving away from her selfish/stupid beginnings.

 

Sara: Sure she was selfish and spiteful enough when she was young to get on the boat with Oliver and even self-centered enough to showoff their season two relationship at the family dinner.  But, she had been through hell and when it came time, she left Oliver and returned to the League to help save Starling City.  She might not be the stuff pure heroes are made of, but she had some notion of self-sacrifice.

 

Tommy: While he was supposed to be the spoiled, playboy, billionaire that Oliver began as, he clearly loved Laurel deeply, loved Oliver almost as much, and wanted to prove himself capable of not being taken care of by his dad.  He also died a hero.  He made the journey from selfish/self-centered to hero in one season.  Laurel's still working on it.

 

So yea, while its fine to like Laurel and even cheer her on - to me it's hard to argue that she isn't the "worst" of the "good guys."

[SonofaBiscuit]

So like I said, I guess we'll just have to see this issue differentl. And I'll have to deal with the fact that I'll never understand (and was even warned about) the hate boner the majority of this board has for Laurel and if I want to continue joining in on discussions here.

 

 

And honestly, I'll never understand why it matters if people hate a fictional TV character.  Love her or hate her for whatever irrational or completely logical reason, who cares?  This is hardly a unique phenomenom.  Regina, Katrina, Elena, and I'm sure the list goes on.  There are lots of forums on here where you will find nearly universal hate for one particular character, and I have honestly never seen this be a problem except for on this particular forum.  I don't get it.  

[nksarmi]

And honestly, I'll never understand why it matters if people hate a fictional TV character.  Love her or hate her for whatever irrational or completely logical reason, who cares?  This is hardly a unique phenomenom.  Regina, Katrina, Elena, and I'm sure the list goes on.  There are lots of forums on here where you will find nearly universal hate for one particular character, and I have honestly never seen this be a problem except for on this particular forum.  I don't get it.  

I don't know about THIS forum, but I had to stop reading Facebook posts on Arrow because the Laurel hate usually translated to the most simplistic of female insults (like slut/wish she would die/she's so ugly/etc....) and it was hard to stomach.  I knew I didn't love Laurel, but only when I finally registered here (because I knew a lot of people TWOP came over here) could I start looking at character reasons why Laurel needed to improve rather than feeling like I needed to defend the poor actress who played her.

 

Take Regina from Once.  I know she was hated on TWOP (well actually, less that she was hated, more than people didn't like how much the EPs/writers loved her and whitewashed her past sins) so I'm not surprised to see the same things here.  But I never read anything bad about the actress who plays her, her looks, or her acting ability. 

 

People here seem very capable of separating the character from the actor/actress - that is not the case on other boards and I've seen that a lot with Laurel/Katie.

[NumberCruncher]

I don't hate Laurel either and have even defended her in the past, but I completely understand why so many fans dislike her so much. That's on the writers for completely bungling her development for 2-1/2 seasons.

I think Laurel was fine in this episode, but I still can't shake the annoyance that others suffering in Quentin's rage because she wasn't upfront and honest with him about Sara's death. Oliver came right out and admitted 2 episodes ago that Quentin's vendetta was a result of him lying about Sara which stinks because Oliver flat-out told Laurel multiple times to come clean with her dad. Now Oliver gets to pay for Laurel's deception. That sucks.

[SonofaBiscuit]

What was the epic game-changer in this episode?  

[apinknightmare]

What was the epic game-changer in this episode?

Oliver getting outed, I would imagine.

[wonderwall]

What was the epic game-changer in this episode?  

Either Roy being sent to jail, or Oliver getting outed

 

ETA: Exactly what apinknightmare said :p

Edited April 7, 2015 by wonderwall

[Delphi]

I think it was supposed to Ollie's secret identity possibly being revealed...but that's obviously not going to stick.

Eta: what others said.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Delphi

[Lii]

1. Guggenheim has admitted he didn't think they'd get such a huge backlash about Laurel lying to Quentin. But they did. So they cannot repeat that story beat. She can't outright lie to him anymore. So they're going the lie of omission route, and doing a little bit of sleight of hand by having Quentin go after Oliver. Because Oliver is actually REALLY good at taking blame for things other people should be copping out to.

 

 Guggenheim has always had a giant boner for the LL character rivaled only by his blind spot when it comes to fan response to her. He keeps writing her the exact way, then gets incredibly surprised when fans crap all over it. Guggenheim is a moron.

Gwen-Stacys - not everyone hates Laurel.  I don't.  But I think for many people - she is one of the worst things about the show.  And I reluctantly might have to agree to that - but only because her path to BC has been really poorly done (as is being discussed in other threads).  There are so many things they could have done better and it seems like there have been times when the writers WANTED you to dislike Laurel. 

 

If you add in the fact that a lot of people seemed to have LOVED Sara, then the seemingly senseless killing of Sara, just to make Laurel Lance Black Canary breeds more loathing.  That part isn't really the character's fault, but it is a huge mistake on the part of the writers as far as I'm concerned.

 

In regards to rather or not Laurel is more selfish, stupid, or narcissistic than other characters on the show - well, by far she is.  I mean, let's break it down....

 

Oliver: Has been really stupid this season, has had unbelievable motivations, is hugely arrogant and total control freak, and was a total dirtbag pre-island.  BUT, we still have two seasons of love built up with him, get to see him be noble in flashbacks, and still get to admire him saving the city occasionally.  He is grating on me this season a bit, but I can still hold out hope he will improve dramatically when some of the plots from this season have been resolved.

 

Diggle: Great, noble guy who is hard to find fault with.  I hated him telling Oliver not to reveal his secret to Thea at the start of the season (that seemed out of character for him too) and I thought him going to NP with Oliver to help break out Merlyn was weak sauce because from what I could tell - they had no exit plan.  But other than that, even this season which has been bad for most characters - its hard not to love Diggle.

 

Felicity: She is just pure awesomeness and has been from the moment she was introduced.  I got a little mad at her when she wouldn't listen to Oliver after her returned from the dead, but since Oliver wasn't really conveying just how serious the situation was (like he almost died and Ra's is way more of a badass than he originally thought) - I couldn't really blame her for her irrational ranting.  I also don't blame her for her involvement with Ray like at all.  I don't think he is nearly as bad as some claim (electrocuting Roy aside) and she deserved to go out and try to find some happy.  The realization that she loves Oliver and can't be with someone else until she deals with that is going to be hard for her to process.  But all in all, I don't think Felicity is a selfish or stupid character and she is one of the people most in tune with other people around her.

 

Roy: The boy is downright hero material - maybe more than Oliver Queen ever was prior to the island.  He cares about other people, loves Thea wholeheartedly, cares so much about Oliver he would go to jail to protect him, works with Laurel because he understands her need to go out in the field even if she isn't 100% ready, and he is a steady teammate.  He really has few flaws in my eyes - and he is about as far from selfish and narcissistic as they come.

 

Thea: She is probably the closest to Laurel as any other major cast member, but she is a teenager who is growing up.  She started the show at 17 and is all of 20 now.  Yes, she as a spoiled little rich kid, but she was a spoiled little rich kid whose father and brother died and whose mom withdrew from her emotionally and was basically left a lone for five years. And the thing about Thea is that she has - for the most part - only been shown moving forward, growing up, becoming more of a caring, loving person and moving away from her selfish/stupid beginnings.

 

Sara: Sure she was selfish and spiteful enough when she was young to get on the boat with Oliver and even self-centered enough to showoff their season two relationship at the family dinner.  But, she had been through hell and when it came time, she left Oliver and returned to the League to help save Starling City.  She might not be the stuff pure heroes are made of, but she had some notion of self-sacrifice.

 

Tommy: While he was supposed to be the spoiled, playboy, billionaire that Oliver began as, he clearly loved Laurel deeply, loved Oliver almost as much, and wanted to prove himself capable of not being taken care of by his dad.  He also died a hero.  He made the journey from selfish/self-centered to hero in one season.  Laurel's still working on it.

 

So yea, while its fine to like Laurel and even cheer her on - to me it's hard to argue that she isn't the "worst" of the "good guys."

Well and concisely put list. However, honestly, lying for stupid reasons is a Lance trait. I know Sara is beloved of this board, but my personal feelings aside, just going by that list she isn't much better than Laurel, she just wasn't around long enough to screw up as many times.

I am incredibly disappointed in the character arc for Thea, as I feel her maturity level as an adult and as a person actually dropped this season, but then, who HASN'T this season been bad to... your assessment of her in writing like that just depressed me a little.

[statsgirl]

And, I repeat, in that particular moment, why would she have pointed it out? It wasn't her point! Her point was that her father was being petty as hell. And, if I recall correctly, she never once threw anyone else under the bus when she told Quinten. There was no "We thought it was best if you didn't know" she was ver "I thought....I did..." etc etc.

I remember that when they buried Sara and Quentin wasn't there, a lot of us commented that it was so unfair not to give him the chance to mourn the death of his child and see her safely buried.  MG has two kids of his own, he should have felt that.  But, I guess, plot!  Still, he was aware of the reaction before this episode was shot.

 

But I don't think you can call Quentin's anger at not being told petty.  If it were someone else's child and a case he was working on, yeah. But it's his daughter, who he loved and mourned and rejoiced that she was still alive.  All through the season, from her to reviewers, Quentin not knowing has been a sore point and "twitter blew up" when Felicity helped Laurel fake Sara's voice and then Laurel pretended to be her sister.  There's no way MG could not know that this is a sore point.

 

Plot-wise, it distances Quentin from everyone else, everyone he trusts over the past 2 years, Laurel, Oliver, Felicity, Dinah, everyone is complicit in Laurel's decision, and leaves him all alone so it justifies the insanity that he wrecks upon the Arrow at this point.  But Laurel still remains a problematic character in spite of all the propping they have done for her this season, self-involved, sometimes shallow and unaware of the greater effect of her actions (e.g. that the other members of TA have to protect her because she's not good enough to be in the field yet. I think it would do wonders for her character in terms of the audience for her to admit that this was her mistake and take the blame for it.

 

ETA:  I was thinking about this some more.  Storywise, on Arrow the idea of taking responsibility is a major plot.  It's when you take responsibility that you move from anti-hero to hero.  Oliver took no responsibility before the island; post-island he takes responsibility for not only his own actions but those of other people..Sara was constantly trying to do good to take responsibility for her actions; Thea offered  herself to Nyssa to kill because of what she had done to Sara.  Moira moved from shady to good when she took responsibility for her role in the Undertaking and made her statement to the press.  Malcolm still doesn't take responsibility for his actions so he remains a villain.   Roy has been trying to take responsibility for killing a cop and finally manages to here by sacrificing himself for Oliver.

 

So the dividing line between 'good' and 'bad' often seems to be the line between taking responsibility and letting yourself off the hook.  If they want to plant Laurel firmly on the side on the heros, she needs to tell her father it was her decision not to tell him about Sara's death.  Telling him why might help too.

Edited April 8, 2015 by statsgirl

[tv echo]

antonelamastromarino asked:

I Re-watched the last episode, Thea said to oliver: Ras is after us because of Malcolm, What don't I know ? and then... boom! flashback. Oliver knows more than he says ? Thanks ! ps: sorry for my english, I`m from Argentina !

Oliver told Thea about Ra’s’ offer (off-camera).

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited April 8, 2015 by tv echo

[KirkB]

Don't forget it wasn't just not telling Quentin that Sara was dead. It was actively tricking him into thinking she was still alive by having Laurel dress up as Sara and the voice modulated phone call. It's beyond just lying, which is bad enough, and Quentin doesn't even know all that. He thinks they just didn't tell him. I'm not sure he realizes how much Laurel and Felicity and Diggle and Roy (Oliver wasn't even around for that part) have manipulated him.

 

I keep coming back to the fight with the LoA on the roof. Maseo tells them to "kill them all". To begin with, that doesn't sound right to me. Maseo wouldn't want to kill Oliver when he went out of his way to bring the guy back from the brink of death, and it wasn't on Ra's orders since a dead Oliver can't lead. Now you could say he was intending to kill Oliver and bring him back with the pit but while it works that way in the comics the show has not yet established on screen that it can resurrect the dead. Beyond that, I still don't get how Roy and Laurel survived, if the League guys were really trying. I can accept Oliver going toe to toe with them but Roy and especially Laurel shouldn't have had a chance. Well, except for being part of the cast, of course.

[tv echo]

rikersgirl21love asked:

Hey Marc in season 1 Roy was saved by the arrow and the police saw it right? I mean it was on every TV and computer in the city. So how'd they actually believe him when he said he was the arrow?

Are you referring to Ep. 1x18?  The police didn’t see Roy and Arrow in the same place at the same time.

http://marcguggenheim.tumblr.com/

Edited April 9, 2015 by tv echo

[CabotCove]

In regards to rather or not Laurel is more selfish, stupid, or narcissistic than other characters on the show - well, by far she is.  I mean, let's break it down....

I personally disagree, to me Oliver is way up there at the top, he might even be the Queen in this area. And they are some others I would even put in that box before her.

 

And honestly, I'll never understand why it matters if people hate a fictional TV character.

Maybe when its beyond excessive & extreme, and as a result ruining other members/fans' online experience, it should start to matter.

 

And, to be honest, a lot of the issues most of us have with the way characters act on this show can be summed up with a simple "Because...plot!"

 

Agree,  this season has been especially worse in that area, Imo.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Conell

[millennium]

Is it just a coincidence that Barry Allen learned how to travel back in time a couple/few weeks ago on The Flash?   Is this the part where the Flash shows up in Starling City and sets everything back a day or two to prevent Oliver's identity from being exposed?

 

If not, I don't see where the show can go from here.   It was already silly enough with the ever-expanding circle of those who know Oliver's secret identity.  But this takes the cake.

 

I had hoped Malcolm Merlyn would surprise everyone and substitute as fall guy for the Arrow, as a gesture of reciprocity for Oliver saving his life.   But no.  It's Roy.

[KirkB]

Nice thought but I don't think Malcolm could ever bring himself to do anything like that. He's only out for the greater good of Malcolm Merlyn. He was willing to trash a part of the city to make himself feel better and he pretty much threw Oliver and Thea under the bus in an effort to get himself out from under the thumb of the LoA.

[millennium]

Nice thought but I don't think Malcolm could ever bring himself to do anything like that. He's only out for the greater good of Malcolm Merlyn. He was willing to trash a part of the city to make himself feel better and he pretty much threw Oliver and Thea under the bus in an effort to get himself out from under the thumb of the LoA.

 

I know, but temporary bouts of redemption sometimes prevail in dramatic situations like this.   Even if Malcolm did take the fall, what then?   Oliver just stops being the Arrow, marries Felicity and gets fat?

 

This is all too Tony Stark for me, with everybody knowing.

 

Ra's blabbing Oliver's secret identity also seems to clash with what we know of this villain.   He has long known Batman's identity but has never revealed it out of respect for his worthiest opponent.  To do so would just seem ... cheap. 

 

He must hold Oliver in similar esteem if he's offering him the keys to the kingdom; why not accord him the same respect?   

Edited April 11, 2015 by millennium

[quarks]

Millennium, that's a reasonable question, but you are asking it of R'as, a guy who thinks that his best possible choice for an heir to a league of assassins is someone who has taken a no kill vow.

 

Logical thinking is not this guy's strong suit, is what I'm saying.

[KirkB]

Another thing I'm wondering about Ra's. Has he been humoring/messing with Nyssa her whole life, leading her to believe she's the Heir to the Demon while he waits around for a worthy male to show up, or was he seriously training and preparing her for the role only to change his mind for some reason? The show doesn't make it clear. It could be that it really was going to be Nyssa, who was hardcore for the League until she met Sara, because falling in love revealed a heretofore unknown weakness in Ra's eyes. Or it could be that he's been stringing her along this entire time to keep her and the other League members in line, until some guy he thinks is worth it comes along. Why on Earth he thinks Oliver would be worthy I have no idea. 

[formerlyfreedom]

A reminder, please - it's perfectly all right to have a different opinion from other people, and voicing that opinion is fine as well. What is not okay is to attack other posters for their opinion. Some posts have been deleted.

 

 

 

ETA: Please move on from discussing Sara/Laurel and Canary/Black Canary. That is not a conversation for the episode topic. Thanks.

[MostlyC]

Maybe we should call her the Black Kitten?

[statsgirl]

Another thing I'm wondering about Ra's. Has he been humoring/messing with Nyssa her whole life, leading her to believe she's the Heir to the Demon while he waits around for a worthy male to show up, or was he seriously training and preparing her for the role only to change his mind for some reason?

The show has some serious 'splainin' to do.

 

Hopefully the writers have some good reasons in mind, from why Oliver repeatedly saved/listened to Malcolm Merlyn when everyone else could see how stupid it was, and how it is that Ra's managed to keep power for that long when he spent a lifetime training Nyssa to be the Heir, only to throw it all away when a cute boy survived his sword.

[dtissagirl]

And let's be real, Oliver only survived the sword because Ra's was incompetent. He could've actually aimed for the heart. He could've decapitated Oliver. He could have sent a minion down the mountain immediately after, and waited for a confirmed kill. He didn't. Ra's also has super poor leadership skills if Maseo was so quick to help Oliver, AND Ra's is a terrible manager in not knowing Maseo has ways to contact Tatsu so easily.

Now that I think about it, Oliver's actually the ideal candidate to replace an incompetent Ra's.

[KirkB]

I suppose there is a possibility Ra's did it on purpose. If he was already looking at Oliver as a candidate (why I have no idea) then maybe he stabbed him in a not instantly fatal but still life threatening way and kicked him off the cliff where he knew there was a ledge, to see if Oliver could survive. If he managed to come back from that then he was indeed worthy, never mind the fact he's no good at running a large organization and doesn't kill. Then again that would probably be giving these writers too much credit.

 

On the other hand, why did Maseo say to kill all of them on the rooftop? I get killing Roy and Laurel but why would Ra's want his men to kill the guy he wants to take over for him?

Edited April 13, 2015 by KirkB