S03.E06: Born Again

[Captanne]

bandella

 

He spends some time in Hel(l) before showing up after the whole "cleanse the Earth with fire" motif and turning it into a paradise. Sounds familiar, huh?

 

I'm sorry -- no.  It doesn't sound familiar?  Is there a Christian allegory there?  Something New Testament?  I'm tired tonight and not thinking clearly.

 

ETA:  To the best of my very limited knowledge, Loki is a trickster with a very, very dark side to him.  This is why I'm unclear about Floki -- other than the obvious name similarity and his eccentric ways, he started out fairly benign.  Suddenly, since that fucking bizarre reaction to his newborn infant ("she makes me happy and I hate that -- the way I feel is all her fault."  Forgive me but "what the fuck?!" is all over that.)  From then on he is on a straight road to murdering a guy who is all alone, on his knees, naked and humming to himself.  

 

It's monstrous.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Captanne

[tennisgurl]

It really is fascinating to see how much Bjorn grew to resemble Ragnar. Its most notable in his expressions and his body language, especially at the party. He was 100% channeling TF, its really pretty impressive.

[rozen]

I can't quite believe his ego isn't big enough to think his genius might jump a generation.

 

Well, his son is still free to keep producing babies with Judith. And if one of them turns out well, I'm sure he could manufacture all sorts of reasons to disinherit Aethelsan's son. 

 

I binge watched this this weekend, and geez do I hate Floki. Shouldn't Ragnar have been able to find another boat builder now that he's the freaking king? I know Floki's supposed to be brilliant, but they never showed us another boatbuilder so we could really see that. He's such a petulant child, and nearly killed poor Helga who's pretty much a saint.

 

Pretty sure Ragnar will have some good guesses on who's responsible, especially since Floki appears to have strapped on every weapon he owns before disappearing. I guess Floki is just trying to get a good head start on him?

[Ravenya003]

Of course, there's also a theory that Loki's malicious heel turn at the end of his story is itself a Christian take on the tale, as those wishing to convert the pagans didn't seem to understand and/or like the order/chaos dichotomy central to Norse mythology and instead wanted it to be a more familiar good/evil deal. There needed to be a central "evil" figure against which the "good" characters in the stories could unite, and whenever anything went wrong in Norse myths, Loki was at fault and had to fix it. Why not make him a true villain instead of just a troublemaker?

 

 

Heh, I just came back this morning to say something similar! There's a definite parallel to be seen between Loki and Lucifer, even in something as recent as Marvel's Thor movies, where Tom Hiddleston strolls around in that giant horned helmet (reminiscent of demon horns). I think there was also a deleted scene that had him turn something into a snake, aka, a serpent.

 

It's the old "chicken or the egg" argument: were the Norse myths based on something older than Christianity which also influenced the shape of the later religion, or did Christianity eventually get soaked into Norse mythology as the conversion of pagans began? Probably a little bit of both, but I've always been fascinated by the similarities between different belief systems and the way in which they're presented on the show. I believe Athelstan has already mentioned the story of Odin being hung from a tree for three days. 

 

And I agree with the others above that Ecbert had a pre-recorded in his head speech ready as soon as Judith blurted out Athelstan's name.  Politically clever as usually he could easily manipulate the locals with his hocus pocus.  Had it planned all along as soon as Judith gave up Athelstan's name.

 

 

Makes you wonder how far he would have let it go if Judith hadn't identified Athelstan as the father. 

[WatchrTina]

 

You happy now, Floki?  Nah, I'm sure he'll still find ways to bitch about something Ragnar does.  I hope he does get some kind of comeuppance in the future.

This.  So much.  I don't know how I managed to come to this episode today, 3 days late, unspoiled but somehow I did and I just couldn't believe that Floki actually killed Asthelstan.  I was in such denial that I assumed the body Ragnar was carrying up into the mountains was the Wessex survivor he strangled.  I didn't believe it was Athelstan until the eulogy began.  Damn.  And damn you Floki! 

 

Everybody's already made most of the comments I would have made so I'll just chime in to say how much I liked that scene where the Vikings were drumming and chanting around a fire.  It looked very Native American but I thought that was kind of cool.

Edited March 30, 2015 by WatchrTina

[tennisgurl]

I know right? I guess Floki will need a new scapegoat to blame all his problems on now that Asthelstan is dead. 

 

Its weird, but I was kind of sad when Asthelstan completely renounced the Norse gods. I liked how he had belief in both religions and lifestyles, I thought it was interesting how he assimilated, but never totally let go of his past. It was sad seeing how he was suddenly so separate from the Northern community, when he had pretty much been accepted (except by Floki, of course). 

 

The thing is though, Floki isn't wrong. Eventually, the Christ God WILL take over the Norse gods, at least among most of his people. Its a gradual transition, and I`m not sure off the top of my head when the Norse really started converting (I know it was a very gradual process, with both faiths being mixed together a lot), but it cant be too long away. Floki has pretty much called whats going to happen. He`s a religious fanatic who can see that his religion is in danger of being marginalized. 

 

Ragnar`s eulogy was just so heartfelt. My favorite part was when Ragnar said how strong Asthelstan was for questioning things. I think that's what drew Ragnar to him from day one. He was naturally curious, and was fascinated by the unknown. Facing the unknown is a huge part of Ragnars life, so I can see why he respected  (and loved) him so much. 

[caprice]

Loved, loved, loved. I'm still processing, but OMG, the look on Athelstan's face at seeing Floki. Radiant.

 

Seeing Bjorn with the baby made my ovaries explode.

 

I'm echoing a lot of people here, yet there was something so simple and pure about the sequence where Ragnar was alone with Athelstan's body, having that quiet moment of introspection. When he brought up the idea that he wouldn't be able to see Athelstan in the same heaven, there might have been tears over here.

[bandella]

bandella

 

 

I'm sorry -- no.  It doesn't sound familiar?  Is there a Christian allegory there?  Something New Testament?  I'm tired tonight and not thinking clearly.

 

ETA:  To the best of my very limited knowledge, Loki is a trickster with a very, very dark side to him. 

Yep. It's an incident most commonly referred to as the "harrowing of hell" in the Apostles' Creed, though biblical scholars seem to debate whether it was ever meant to be interpreted literally. Basically, the story goes that after being crucified and before resurrection, Christ descended into "the underworld" to preach to the unconverted and to tell them how they could be saved. Here's the interesting part, though: depending on the translation, it either refers to "hell" in the Christian theological sense, or "Hel" in the Anglo-Saxon sense, i.e., simply the realm of the dead, without the eternal torment implications. The Apostles' Creed is largely a Catholic thing, I think, and some branches of Protestantism. I went to a Presbyterian church when I was a kid, and that particular bit always stuck with me for some reason.

 

...sorry. I'm a nerd and really into this stuff and etymology and all that. I'll shut up about it now. 

 

As for Loki (myth version, not the Marvel version), he actually wasn't a terrible guy in most of the myths. His sudden, inexplicable decision to orchestrate Baldr's murder is a pretty sharp turn for him, which is why a lot of people who study this kind of thing in far, far more depth than I do think it's a later addition to the myths. Otherwise, he pretty much just liked annoying people and occasionally showing up uninvited to parties, getting drunk, and insulting everyone, but he never came off as being very malicious. In fact, Thor comes off as being far more bloodthirsty and violent, being ultra-willing to go smash a giant's head in at the first given opportunity. 

 

I promise, though, I'm not trying to lecture anyone. If I'm coming off that way, tell me and I'll shut up. I just get easily excited about this stuff. :)

 

But back on track here before I get myself canned. I'm genuinely curious here, but how does one go about being nominated for an Emmy? I know it's a long shot, but after watching the episode again, I find myself more and more impressed by Travis Fimmel, especially that eulogy scene. It's kind of funny that even though I love Athelstan's character and was shocked to see him killed off (hands over my mouth and all), I wasn't really sad about it...until Ragnar showed up, hauling his tiny buddy up the mountain to their sooper seekrit date spot. That's when I really felt it and felt Ragnar's loss because he made me feel it. 

 

At the very least, how about a People's Choice Award?

Edited March 31, 2015 by bandella

[Captanne]

Been a practicing Episcopalian all my long life and never heard of the Apostle's creed.  Go figure!  (Can't say I'm a fan.  BFF is a big time "Seventh Seal", Knights Templar, and "the Holy Grail is in Scotland with the Masons" sort so I'm used to that enthusiasm for it, though.)

 

The best example of Episcopalians where I'm from is Eddie Izzard's rendition of the Church of England.  Pretty hilarious.  Fire and Brimstone, we ain't.  (More like tea and crumpets.)

 

ANYway, a friend of mine wrote a really neat book a while ago called Iron Thane (I recommend it) and after that a book I wasn't as fond of called Spawn of Loki.  His version of Loki is very interesting.  I don't remember if it was like Floki's version from Vikings or not.  

Edited March 31, 2015 by Captanne

[LennieBriscoe]

In a show that has plenty of murders, treachery, and battle savagery, Judith's adultery with Athelstan is hardly the only "bad" act given a pass! Hello, Bjorn "Love the one you're with"! Hello, Ragnar and his women and their men! I don't think her behavior was "glorified," either, for King Ecbert speaks not for the church but for his own manipulative self.

 

In regards specifically to "glorifying" the adultery: The child grows up to be Alfred the Great. Traditionally, heroes of such renown are usually said to have had a "supernatural" siring, regardless of the mother's marital status.

 

~~Hated Fugly Floki from Day 1, and still do. Bleagh to him and his gruff whispers about "the gods." Yeah, he won't take kindly or quietly to Ragnar's wearing of Athelstan's Crucifix.

 

~~Ragnar and Athelstan had a touching bromance, but Ragnar and Ecbert make a great comedy duo.

 

~~I like this show a lot. But as a person who has read mythology from knee-high to a grasshopper, I care not one whit for Norse mythology. The days of the week suffice for me! :-P

~~

Basically, the story goes that after being crucified and before resurrection, Christ descended into "the underworld" to preach to the unconverted and to tell them how they could be saved. Here's the interesting part, though: depending on the translation, it either refers to "hell" in the Christian theological sense, or "Hel" in the Anglo-Saxon sense, i.e., simply the realm of the dead, without the eternal torment implications.

Disagree somewhat. Christ descended into Hell to redeem, not preach to,  the Old Testament and other saintly but pre-Christ men of their sins and allow them to ascend to heaven. And I don't see anywhere this, either in the New Testament or in this episode:

 

the whole "cleanse the Earth with fire" motif and turning it into a paradise. Sounds familiar, huh?

 

~~"The Apostles' Creed" is a MAJOR prayer of the Episcopal Church.

Edited March 31, 2015 by LennieBriscoe

[Captanne]

LennieBriscoe, while I am very familiar with that creed in writing (we say it every Sunday), I've never heard it called that and I've never heard reference to his descent into hell in flames and all that -- other than it sounds very Catholic and brings to mind Purgatory.  

 

 

He descended to the dead.

    On the third day he rose again.

 

No mention of hell and fire there.  At least not to the naked eye.

 

It appears my Episcopalian faith is sadly lacking.  I'll have to get my sack cloth and ashes back from the dry cleaners before I can wear them again.  :-)

 

 

 

~~Why are we discussing Loki?

 

I think we're talking about Loki because Floki acts like a trickster and has a decidedly dark side to his personality.  Also because the name is almost identical and, therefore, evocative of Loki -- there may be intent on the part of the writers to compare Floki and his behaviour to Loki's.

 

BTW, I also have never been able to tolerate the character or the actor's performance. 

Edited March 31, 2015 by Captanne

[Babalooie]

Captanne, oddly enough, Gustaf Skarsgard, who plays Floki, is the only main character actor who is a true Scandinavian.  I would hope that he has some insight into the character.  He did say that he read volumes of Norse mythology in preparation for this role.  I have stated previously that his movements seem serpentine to me, along with the hissing of some words.  Just read that his nickname is Orm, which means snake.  It will be very interesting to see what Ragnar will do in retribution for Floki's act.  I very much would have liked to see the scene where Athelstan was found.  Who found him?  What was Ragnar's first reaction to his death?

[Captanne]

He could be the human embodiment of Loki himself and I wouldn't cotton to him.  Sorry.  

 

ETA:  I also find the writing for Floki problematic.  For me, and only in my opinion, he is a very one dimensional villain and that villainy has gotten less and less debatable as the series has continued.  Someone here suggested that was a parallel with the mythology of Loki which I am admittedly not that familiar with.  Even if that is the case, I would argue that Loki was one dimensional.  He whines and complains about everything, he hates his own infant child for making him happy (what?) and blames the child.

 

In this very episode, he physically throttles his partner (but he apologizes!) and sows dischord every where he goes.  Not to mention the whole "killing a naked man alone on his knees in his own bedroom."  That's some serious chickenshit behaviour right there.

 

Honestly, he reminds me less of Gollum (there was a conversation about that here earlier) than he does Wormtongue.  Wormtongue was also very one-dimensional.  (Except that he was played by the amazing Brad Dourif who, in my eyes, can do no wrong.)

Edited April 1, 2015 by Captanne

[WatchrTina]

 

He could be the human embodiment of Loki himself and I wouldn't cotton to him.

I got the feeling that in this particular episode that may be exactly what Floki was supposed to evoke.  He tells Helga not to tell anyone that he has gone somewhere and then he turns up at Kattegat in plain view.  I thought, "Wait . . . what?  Aren't you supposed to be doing something stealthy right now?"  Then I noticed that no one seemed to see him.  No one reacted to him stalking past the fire.  The director went to great pains to show Rollo NOT see Floki as he walked by.  I got the feeling we were supposed to think that Floki was operating under some supernatural mandate that made him all but invisible for the moment.  I will be interested to see if anyone can testify that Floki was the killer.

[raven]

Loki is supposed to be able to shapeshift and that's alluded to with Floki (we see the eagle when the boat arrives and the dog behind Rollo).  So there are more parallels.  Floki's time has passed I think; he's been teetering on the edge for a long while now and I think the tipping point was hearing about the Christians in Wessex killing the settlers.  The Vikings we're shown think nothing of slaughtering in this way either but these are their own people; just one more thing to prove to Floki that the Christian god is the wrong one; and then he sees the blood dripping from the carving.  He's almost possessed (or just finally fully psychopathic) when he grabs Helga.

 

Don't stone me heh but Athelstan was only interesting when he was with Ragnar.  I'm not sure if he ever recovered from a really extreme case of Stockholm Syndrome.  I liked that he questioned his beliefs and can understand that he was drawn to Ragnar, his family and the Viking way of life but he was brought into it pretty traumatically.  Maybe I'm just looking at it through too-modern eyes.  I've haven't loved what they've done with Athelstan this season so I'm OK with him being a catalyst for what could be the madness of Floki, or a confrontation between Floki & Ragnar.  Still not sure how the mysticism and holy baby fits in. 

[Captanne]

I was very fond of Athelstan but worried when I read he was becoming a fan favorite and suddenly was doing the "300 Exercise Routine".  Sure, nice abs on the monk, but I don't think that's the direction the character was headed.  LOL

 

If "Born Again" is any evidence, he was headed back to pure Christianity and, initially, to Merrie Olde.  Leaving VikingLand for good.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Captanne

[WatchrTina]

Well that explains where those six-pack abs came from in Athelstan's final scene. I did wonder.

[Granny58]

Ragnar cobbling together a cross for Athelstan at the end choked me up a bit, I must admit.

I was in tears (not hard, but they were there).

[lidarose9]

I'm a bit late in adding my voice to the chorus, but I can't stop thinking about what an absolutely awesome actor TF is. This episode was amazing. There are certain moments in certain shows you just never forget, and his words to Athelstan up on that mountain, that will stick with me. It's a combination of fantastic writing, a top-notch actor, a location that does it justice, and a director with the right touch to bring it all together. This show gets a lot of little perfect moments. Each episode has several but lately there've been some great ones: Siggy's face when she sees her daughter on the ice, Athelstan's ecstasy as he had his Road-to-Damascus moment, and Ragnar's face as he said goodbye to his friend. There are more, but those three stand out right now.

 

Both those guys are amazing actors. Everything was always so underplayed, it made the powerful moments that much more intense.

 

I don't know why Ragnar loved Athelstan so much, but I know what it's like to have a friend like that. Something harmonized between them so strongly, in an unspoken way - they felt their friendship more than knew it - so that when Ragnar verbalizes it, you know what those plain words represent. You feel the simple truth of it. You must not leave. You are essential to me. I could not be happy without you. I don't know who I am without you.

 

I especially love that there was never the slightest hint of homoeroticism in the handling of this relationship, even though Ragnar invited Athelstan to bed once. I guess I think that was just a friendly kind of thing to do rather than any secret wish on Ragnar's part. It is possible for two men to have a deep, meaningful friendship without sex being an issue.

 

I think Ragnar wears Athelstan's cross not as a Christian symbol, but as a memento of his treasured friend. I think Ragnar doesn't give a shit about Christianity. He only took it seriously at all because Athelstan did. He wanted to understand why this meant so much to Athelstan, because he admired him.

 

I was truly stunned to see Athelstan die cuz he has functioned as the point-of-view character for us a lot of the time. He's the outsider representing the audience. I guess it's a Ned Stark thing - the show will go on. But I have a feeling he will continue to influence events in Ragnar's life, even from the afterlife.

Edited April 4, 2015 by lidarose9

[SoWindsor]

I wanted to see Ragnar discover althestan dead. Seemed odd that was missing.

Athlestan was my favorite character that I was attached to but like others that faded this season. I can't quite pinpoint why but I wasn't too upset he died which is shocking compared to how I felt seasons 1 and 2.

I cannot stand floki. The character and actor are terrible IMO. He's not even a love to hate character. Just ugh.

My love for largertha has lessened and I'm also not sure why. I miss season 1 Lagertha. The show isn't doing any favors having no interaction between her and Ragnar.

I'm feeling pretty meh about this show.

[Kalliste]

I haven't been this sad about a character death since Doyle died in Angel.

I didn't have the issue with Athelstan that everyone else seems to. Yes, it was strange with him and Judith but I think there were always conversations to redeem him. Most recently, his discussions with Ragnar about Paris. I also enjoyed seeing how happy he was to have been given a sign about his faith...

.. and also that Ragnar was happy for him. He might have suggested he keep up the ruse to the others though.

Sometimes I find it hard to relate to the likes of Floki and the others who wanted nothing to do with Athelstan once they knew he had renounced their gods because, in modern times, I just don't care. It makes no difference to me what religion my friends are or if they aren't religious at all.

But I did love our little monk friend so and was sad to see him die. I was also sadder that I got randomly spoiled about it the day before watching this episode. I have to admit I didn't expect it would be so soon.

The part at the end with Ragnar burying him and putting up the cross was lovely. I felt so sad for him when he had come to the realisation that they'd never see each other again because Athelstan is going to Heaven and Ragnar is going to Valhalla. I wanted him to convert right there :D

My interpretation of the ending was that he has a fairly decent idea of who was involved and was going to get some revenge.

I also didn't see their relationship as platonic. I 100% believe that if Athelstan had acted on Ragnar's advances (he did offer him a threesome with Lagertha, twice) that there would definitely have been sex involved.

I'm really ready to see Ragnar go crazy. I really hope Floki is first in line.

Someone also mentioned how Ragnar just sort of laughed at Aslaug when she was hitting him and I remembered back to his fights with Lagertha and how they were somewhat different.

[green]

9 hours ago, Kalliste said:

I haven't been this sad about a character death since Doyle died in Angel.

I didn't have the issue with Athelstan that everyone else seems to. Yes, it was strange with him and Judith but I think there were always conversations to redeem him. Most recently, his discussions with Ragnar about Paris. I also enjoyed seeing how happy he was to have been given a sign about his faith...

.. and also that Ragnar was happy for him. He might have suggested he keep up the ruse to the others though.

Sometimes I find it hard to relate to the likes of Floki and the others who wanted nothing to do with Athelstan once they knew he had renounced their gods because, in modern times, I just don't care. It makes no difference to me what religion my friends are or if they aren't religious at all.

But I did love our little monk friend so and was sad to see him die. I was also sadder that I got randomly spoiled about it the day before watching this episode. I have to admit I didn't expect it would be so soon.

The part at the end with Ragnar burying him and putting up the cross was lovely. I felt so sad for him when he had come to the realisation that they'd never see each other again because Athelstan is going to Heaven and Ragnar is going to Valhalla. I wanted him to convert right there :D

My interpretation of the ending was that he has a fairly decent idea of who was involved and was going to get some revenge.

I also didn't see their relationship as platonic. I 100% believe that if Athelstan had acted on Ragnar's advances (he did offer him a threesome with Lagertha, twice) that there would definitely have been sex involved.

I'm really ready to see Ragnar go crazy. I really hope Floki is first in line.

Someone also mentioned how Ragnar just sort of laughed at Aslaug when she was hitting him and I remembered back to his fights with Lagertha and how they were somewhat different.

I had no issue with Athelstan ever.  He remains my favorite character.  I think most people here on this forum liked him a lot.  But I don't believe his relationship with Ragnar was anything but platonic.  People can be best friends without going off and having sex.  It was basically Lagertha's offer earlier regards that threesome offer.

As for keeping up the ruse.  Floki already saw Athelstan throwing away his Norse wrist torc.   And Athelstan having finally found his spiritual path in life at long last wouldn't have been open to playing a ruse anyway.

As for getting upset over which deity someone else worships well that was 1200 years ago when it meant much more.  We have grown some since then.  Well maybe not that much considering a major talking point of one of our current presidential candidates.

Ragnar going crazy?  He rarely acts on base emotion like Rollo certainly would have say if Rollo was in his brother's boots.  Ragnar has far more control over himself and was more into playing the long game with both Earl Jarl and King Horik (sp?) last season.  Didn't he phrase it something like the patience of an angry man.  For he is not just a man but a king as well and has multiple responsibilities.

And yes I agree the burial scene with Ragnar was really moving and totally brilliant with pain and some humor and pragmatism too.  Travis is one hell of an actor.  And he certainly is good at talking to dead people because another really standout scene was in Season 1 when he spoke to his dead daughter.