S03.E17: Suicidal Tendencies

[CabotCove]

Ray may be as pig headed but he isn’t just like Oliver because one thing Oliver has always done was trusted Felicity.

I dont think I necessarily agree with "Always",  I think Oliver's hard-headedness too like with Ray, has led him to not always trust or act like he doesnt trust Felicity and her judgement. Felicity was quite hurt by how Oliver hasn't been considering her thoughts/opinions for a large part of this season. I think Ray had his valid reasons not to just take Felicity's words as gospel, many reasons ,one of them being that they are not a married couple  nor have the advantage of having had a friendship for years. Their relationship is quite new and young, like Leeshy notes initial bumps.

 

 

OK, I'm a little confused about all the Ray Palmer hate happening.

And adding a little real life, every relationship has those initial bumps when trust can be tested, but the writers aren't trying to make him the bad guy. He recognised his mistake and apologised (and a little side rant, Felicity should have sat him down, and TOLD HIM EVERYTHING instead of high level summaries which left him to draw his own conclusions rather easily, but that's "TV drama"for you). And frankly, I don't see why this is HIS fault. Felicity also didn't tell Oliver about Ray wanting to save the city. Seems like the theme of not talking continues, as if Ray knew Oliver's quest from the beginning and vice versa, this whole episode could have centered on Diggle and Lyla and their Suicide Squad, which I immensely enjoyed ("I take it back....I want to die").

So no, I will not jump on the Ray Palmer hatred bandwagon. He's does one thing wrong (I can't think of another thing he's done other than be clueless to what is going on) and it's to the wolves he goes, whereas Oliver's been stringing Felicity along for THREE SEASONS and suddenly I'm supposed to support his turn of heart? No I say.

 

@Leeshy. I think you make some good points in your whole post, if you are new, welcome to the forums. Hey I think people are entitled to their opinions but I just dont think all the hate he gets is fair, and its way to excessive for a subforum that is not called The Palmer Bashing forum. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[catrox14]

IMO Oliver's been bashed more than anyone this season and that's been accepted. I'm not seeing where Ray should be immune to criticism especially in an episode, wherein, IMO, he did like a douchebag.

Edited March 28, 2015 by catrox14

[Chaser]

Where did Palmer go during the wedding? After he officiated, the dude disappeared. 

[catrox14]

Where did Palmer go during the wedding? After he officiated, the dude disappeared. 

 

I figured he left to go back to the office to work on his suit, stalk Oliver, and rat him out to the police and make a public statement.....I got nuthin'

[dtissagirl]

I just hope Felicity took her own car.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm going to bash the heck out of any "hero" who electrocutes Roy, a guy who was coming to HELP, to at least unconsciousness if not a coma.  And Felicity wanting to keep dating him after that (we don't know that she knows at the end of the episode, but there's no possible way Roy wouldn't pretty darn quickly mention to her that her new BF ELECTROCUTED him) is one of the reasons I don't like her anymore.  Roy is a genuinely good guy, who learned how to fight to help people, and who's been nothing but mature, kind, loyal, and thoughtful to his team and his ex-/maybe-current girlfriend.  And Ray ELECTROCUTED him.

[catrox14]

^^^^^ I regret that have only one upvote to give the above comment. 

 

Well except for not liking Felicity because I still like Felicity.  Just like I still like Oliver.  I've never liked Ray and his behavior in this episode certainly did him no favors in my opinion.

Edited March 28, 2015 by catrox14

[thuganomics85]

 

Where did Palmer go during the wedding? After he officiated, the dude disappeared.

Hey, considering how he was such a big hit with everyone at the wedding, he was probably mobbed by a bunch of people, just begging him to officiated their wedding, their family's wedding, etc.  I'm sure he got plenty of offers!  After all, when you find a guy who will make sure to make the wedding more about him, you have to get him as soon as possible.

 

Of course, I'm assuming that was after he got through with the line of women, who no doubted wanted to spend Seven Minutes with Ray, in the coat closet!  Dude is totally a stud after-all.  I'm sure even Felicity understood, because he goes by different standards, compared to mere normal men.

[Delphi]

I dont think I necessarily agree with "Always", I think Oliver's hard-headedness too like with Ray, has led him to not always trust or act like he doesnt trust Felicity and her judgement. Felicity was quite hurt by how Oliver hasn't been considering her thoughts/opinions for a large part of this season. I think Ray had his valid reasons not to just take Felicity's words as gospel, many reasons ,one of them being that they are not a married couple nor have the advantage of having had a friendship for years. Their relationship is quite new and young, like Leeshy notes initial bumps.

@Leeshy. I think you make some good points in your whole post, if you are new, welcome to the forums. Hey I think people are entitled to their opinions but I just dont think all the hate he gets is fair, and its way to excessive for a subforum that is not called The Palmer Bashing forum.

I think we as a group bash most characters. Obviously Laurel and Ray seem to be leading the charge but to be fair Ray has gotten nowhere near the hate that Laurel and Katie Cassidy have gotten. On this forum the issues tend to lie how Ray is written and various writing issues, we're not out to get Ray by any means.

I hated Isabel last year, but because she was there to be hated. It's a lot harder to force people to like a character.

[Chaser]

Honestly I can't really get mad at Felicity for the Roy thing. Oliver was there and just left him. Horrible writing.

 

Interestingly, someone on tumblr posted a comic panel of Deadbolt electrocuting Roy and pointed out how Deadbolt is a villain and Ray is supposed to be a hero. Great job show. Fine work.

 

Its funny how different people react. I want to wrap Felicity and Oliver in bubble wrap and beat the battery pack off of Ray for this storyline. 

[AyChihuahua]

 

Well except for not liking Felicity because I still like Felicity.

I'm no happier than you about it, believe me.  She was tied with Diggle for my 2nd favorite character the first two seasons.  But man is she a shit when she's mad.  She says really, really cruel things when she's angry, really kicks Oliver when he's down, and frankly once a person is out of her teens she needs to get a hold of her mouth.

 

I'm sure the EPs expect that once she's back to normal everyone will forget, and mostly people probably will.  I won't, though.  I still haven't forgiven Duncan for letting all his friends crap all over Veronica, and that was like 10 years ago.

 

 

Honestly I can't really get mad at Felicity for the Roy thing. Oliver was there and just left him. Horrible writing.

I agree the writing is utter crap.  However, it is not hard to fanwank Oliver going back for Roy.  That's a relatively minor fanwank.  But fanwanking that Roy, who's rather a hilarious motormouth nowadays, wouldn't mention to Felicity that her new boyfriend ELECTROCUTED him, is a bridge too far.  So, Felicity is going to continue dating and sleeping with the guy who tried to (1) turn in her team to the police, which he knew at that point would put her in serious legal hot water; (2) tried to capture, by pretty much any means necessary, said team; (3) ELECTROCUTED her good friend and teammate who was there for no reason except to respond to a 911 call, aka help people.  That is how desperate she is to be with Ray (not to mention all his condescending bullcrap directed squarely at her).  She's really grossing me out this season.

Edited March 28, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[CabotCove]

IMO Oliver's been bashed more than anyone this season and that's been accepted. I'm not seeing where Ray should be immune to criticism especially in an episode, wherein, IMO, he did like a douchebag.

 

Well If I go in a lot of threads on this forum, I doubt I will see Oliver being bashed on almost every page. I do think Oliver has erred a lot this season even before, he gets criticized for it true but I don't think he gets  as much as he deserves for all his wrong doings, not in intensity or amount. And yeah some of the criticism is done constructively or out of love, so there is the difference. 

 Ray is not immune to criticism nor would I want him to be, I just think the criticism or hate could to be more fair.  Like other characters can get away with something but if Ray does something similar, he becomes the worst person ever or something. The context of the situation or POV,personal history etc being taken into account for others but not for him. 

 

Others love him and think he's only disliked because he blows holes in the Olicity ship (my personal favourite because it undermines any and all intelligent and well constructed arguments for Ray's grossness)

 

It may not be completely true and for everyone who doesnt like him, but its likely not completely untrue in some cases either. Ray is accused of "Grossiness" that other characters like Oliver are often left off the hook for, or when the PTB try to explain where they are coming from and the context is completely ignored in certain arguments. The other problem is some people come off as if his wrongdoings are hell dooming, while other character who have erred or and even done worse are treated as redeemable. When you see that kind of reasoning or selectivity, can you really blame those who think they are other hidden motives. Yeah sometimes it does comes of as shipper induced hate . Its depends, on a case to case basis Imo. So no I would NOT say ALL are intelligent and constructive arguments.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[catrox14]

I think the problem with Ray is that IMO he was a creepy stalker in the first episode.  That was never addressed. It was never shown to be a bad thing. He's getting everything Oliver had or wanted. He's being painted as this wonderful guy, but IMO he's the same jerk he was in the first episode.   It's a bit similar to Laurel IMO.  IMO she was a jerk in the first episode and was never really called out for that and continued to be a jerk a lot of the time.  Again MY OPINION

 

They both remind me of Gwen in Torchwood.  She did and said horrible things but the show never acknowledged those things and didn't work to either redeem or let her go full on bad guy and had everyone around her say she was this wonderful person when she wasn't and she never was punished for her actions.    I think it's the same with Laurel and Ray. I know that's why I can't stand either character here.  YMMV a lot :)

[lemotomato]

Well If I go in a lot of threads on this forum, I doubt I will see Oliver being bashed on almost every page. I do think Oliver has erred a lot this season even before, he gets criticized for it true but I don't think he gets  as much as he deserves for all his wrong doings, not in intensity or amount. And yeah some of the criticism is done constructively or out of love, so there is the difference. 

 Ray is not immune to criticism nor would I want him to be, I just think the criticism or hate could to be more fair.  Like other characters can get away with something but if Ray does something similar, he becomes the worst person ever or something. The context of the situation being taken into account for others but not for him. 

Every other character (yes, even Laurel) who does something objectionable or makes mistakes pays for it on screen. They get called out by someone else, they suffer consequences. Ray makes mistakes and does shady things but he still ends up getting exactly what he wants. No one on the show ever criticizes his behavior except for the one mild rebuke by Felicity, who ends up caving in and working for him anyway. That's what makes me harder on him than on anyone else. Hell, even Marc Guggenheim refuses to admit that Ray has done anything worth criticizing. There's nothing I hate more than a Mary Sue, especially on a show where everyone else is flawed and struggles.

Edited March 28, 2015 by lemotomato

[catrox14]

That's a good point about Laurel getting called out. That has happened.  So maybe it really that Ray is like Gwen on Torchwood.  Laurel just bugs me to no end. LOL

[Chaser]

I'm no happier than you about it, believe me.  She was tied with Diggle for my 2nd favorite character the first two seasons.  But man is she a shit when she's mad.  She says really, really cruel things when she's angry, really kicks Oliver when he's down, and frankly once a person is out of her teens she needs to get a hold of her mouth.

 

I'm sure the EPs expect that once she's back to normal everyone will forget, and mostly people probably will.  I won't, though.  I still haven't forgiven Duncan for letting all his friends crap all over Veronica, and that was like 10 years ago.

 

I agree the writing is utter crap.  However, it is not hard to fanwank Oliver going back for Roy.  That's a relatively minor fanwank.  But fanwanking that Roy, who's rather a hilarious motormouth nowadays, wouldn't mention to Felicity that her new boyfriend ELECTROCUTED him, is a bridge too far.  So, Felicity is going to continue dating and sleeping with the guy who tried to (1) turn in her team to the police, which he knew at that point would put her in serious legal hot water; (2) tried to capture, by pretty much any means necessary, said team; (3) ELECTROCUTED her good friend and teammate who was there for no reason except to respond to a 911 call, aka help people.  That is how desperate she is to be with Ray (not to mention all his condescending bullcrap directed squarely at her).  She's really grossing me out this season.

I totally understand that. I guess given Oliver's well-meaning but misguided (or dumb-ass) support for Ray and Felicity, I can see him painting Ray in a favorable light. We don't know what she was told; Roy wasn't in the Foundry when Felicity was there.  Its totally possible to me that Felicity was left in the dark. 

 

If this was the first season, I would be less forgiving of Felicity. However, I have two plus seasons in Felicity's favor and I'm currently watching the show bend over backwards for Ray at the expense of ever other character (expect Laurel ironically). So that's where I choose to direct my fury. Its pretty much the only way I can watch this storyline right now.

[thuganomics85]

Now that you mention it, as much as I have issues with Laurel, she at least got put through the ringer at times.  Her first attempt at being a vigilante, pretty much ended with her getting her ass handed to her.  Pretty badly too.  Ray?  Oh, sure, his suit his disabled, but not a scratch, and he still gets to "heroically" look Oliver in the eye all "Bring it, dude!"  Yeah, he sure has had it easy compared to everyone else here.

 

Meanwhile, Roy's been on Team Arrow for an entire season, and TPTB apparently are perfectly fine with just having him get electrocuted, and left on the side of the road like garbage.

[dcinmb]

Well If I go in a lot of threads on this forum, I doubt I will see Oliver being bashed on almost every page. I do think Oliver has erred a lot this season even before, he gets criticized for it true but I don't think he gets as much as he deserves for all his wrong doings, not in intensity or amount. And yeah some of the criticism is done constructively or out of love, so there is the difference.

Ray is not immune to criticism nor would I want him to be, I just think the criticism or hate could to be more fair. Like other characters can get away with something but if Ray does something similar, he becomes the worst person ever or something. The context of the situation being taken into account for others but not for him.

It's simple. Oliver is a fully developed character and we have been rooting for him for 2 1/2 seasons. We're invested in him and know that he's a good person despite the hell that he's been through, so we're willing to cut him some slack. Ray, on the other hand, is a cipher. An interloper. We know next to nothing about him, nor has he done anything to earn our loyalty or the benefit of the doubt.

[wonderwall]

Hmm, as much as I was annoyed by Felicity's line "you would like that wouldn't you?" or something like that, I don't think I'm really fickle enough to dislike her character completely over a single line. It's been established that Felicity tends to say some pretty mean stuff when she's emotional (Episode 2 when she implied Oliver didn't have any feelings, bringing Anna up in front of Ray) -- it's her flaw. I guess what annoyed me about it this time was because she didn't apologize for saying it afterwards. Regardless, I don't think Felicity is unsalvageable because I know the second she dumps Ray she'll pretty much be back to normal because she won't have to prop the guy up afterwards. I guess in a sense, I don't like RAY'S Felicity. But I like Felicity overall.

 

Now what I'm annoyed about is that the show is going to make Felicity into a damsel in episode 19 for Ray to 'save' so he can get his heroic moment with the whole 'Stay away from her' line. I only hate it because it's obvious that it's going to be for Ray's heroic moment than anything else. *rolls eyes*

 

Yeah after this episode I can't wait for him to leave. 

[apinknightmare]

We know next to nothing about him, nor has he done anything to earn our loyalty or the benefit of the doubt.

 

We do know now that he's a great guy to go to if you need a jump start or a quick power up on your rechargeable batteries. Or if you just really want to see a passerby electrocuted into human bacon. 

[catrox14]

I just cannot understand how Ray just decided to electrocute someone without figuring what they were doing.  He's a dick. 

[AyChihuahua]

 

Hmm, as much as I was annoyed by Felicity's line "you would like that wouldn't you?" or something like that, I don't think I'm really fickle enough to dislike her character completely over a single line. It's been established that Felicity tends to say some pretty mean stuff when she's emotional (Episode 2 when she implied Oliver didn't have any feelings, bringing Anna up in front of Ray) -- it's her flaw. I guess what annoyed me about it this time was because she didn't apologize for saying it afterwards. Regardless, I don't think Felicity is unsalvageable because I know the second she dumps Ray she'll pretty much be back to normal because she won't have to prop the guy up afterwards. I guess in a sense, I don't like RAY'S Felicity. But I like Felicity overall.

 

I dislike her now for a whole lot more than that one line.  I don't feel at all fickle about that.  I also don't see how establishing that she often says cruel things when she's angry in any way makes it okay.  It's consistent; that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

Edited March 28, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[dtissagirl]

It's kind of hilarious that, for how many times we've heard Guggenheim gush about the robot suit to the press, they really didn't thought out the consequences of the damage the suit can cause.

Which is Palmer in a nutshell: nothing he does has consequences, ever.

[apinknightmare]

I just cannot understand how Ray just decided to electrocute someone without figuring what they were doing.  He's a dick. 

 

Well, not only that but it kind of invalidates a lot of his righteous anger over the Arrow skewering people. So he's a hypocritical dick, too!

[statsgirl]

i haven't been bashing Ray so much as this storyline and how they're writing him.  I've been very angry at Oliver and not happy with Felicity at all. I think I've complained more about Oliver and Felicity and what they're doing than I have about Ray, who been pretty much living wallpaper to me.

 

But:

 I think Ray had his valid reasons not to just take Felicity's words as gospel, many reasons ,one of them being that they are not a married couple  nor have the advantage of having had a friendship for years. Their relationship is quite new and young, like Leeshy notes initial bumps.

There are flashing lights at the start of a relationship that tell you if it's going to be dysfunctional.  (Wish I had known that at Felicity's age.)  Ray had a ton of them in this episode, warning signs that in spite of what he says and however he may feel about her as an employee, now that they are in a relationship he doesn't respect Felicity unless she is behaving the way he wants her to.

 

If he was okay with Felicity taking time off and having secrets before they started sleeping together, he can't throw that in her face now..  Talking about his three PhDs is just being an asshole when she's the one he goes to when he has a tech problem (and anyone who has 3 PhD is just afraid of growing up). The arrogance in dismissing her judgement and experience because she's a friend of Oliver but believing Oliver, the arrogance in zapping Roy who just came to help someone he thought was in trouble.  But the worst was telling Felicity that he's been honest with her from the start when he hasn't.  There are things that you can get past to build a good relationship, and there are things that are so a part of person that they can't be fixed.  I'm sure they can write him differently in the spin-off and maybe he can have a good relationship there but here, the way he is now, Raylicity is as dysfunctional are Oliver/Laurel was in flashbacks. 

 

Personality-wise, some things just trigger me to the extent that I can't get beyond them.  Laurel's narcissism is one; Ray's hypocrisy is another.

[lexicon]

That's a good point about Laurel getting called out. That has happened.  So maybe it really that Ray is like Gwen on Torchwood.  Laurel just bugs me to no end. LOL

 

It has happened but not nearly as much as has been necessary. For example the fact it was her decision not to tell Lance about Sara seems to have been glossed over and now it's Team Arrow's burden to bear, despite the fact that it caused a major breach between Lance and TA, which will result in the kind of manhunt that we see in the 3.18 promo.

 

If Lance is so damned ready to hunt vigilantes, why doesn't he arrest her, he knows she's been running around as the 'Black Canary'. Hell he's the one who christened her with the moniker. 

[nksarmi]

AyChihuahua - that is the best reason I have seen for disliking Ray ever. I guess I got caught up in defending Ray because I know they intend to ultimately make him a hero, but electrocuting Roy was unnecessary.  And I do love Roy.  But poor guy - apparently even the writers don't care that it happened so Felicity definitely won't!

Edited March 28, 2015 by nksarmi

[CabotCove]

 Obviously Laurel and Ray seem to be leading the charge but to be fair Ray has gotten nowhere near the hate that Laurel and Katie Cassidy have gotten.

 

True, that one is 3 years in the making. 

 

It's simple. Oliver is a fully developed character and we have been rooting for him for 2 1/2 seasons. We're invested in him and know that he's a good person despite the hell that he's been through, so we're willing to cut him some slack. Ray, on the other hand, is a cipher. An interloper. We know next to nothing about him, nor has he done anything to earn our loyalty or the benefit of the doubt.

 

Oliver is the protagonist, to an extend I do understand the loyalty and love. 

On Ray, wouldnt it be fair to give him a chance and time?, after all Oliver didn't exactly come into the pilot as a well oiled machine either. He had to develop into something over the seasons and still is.

 

And of course his "final home" will be the spin off, so in a way they have barely scratched the surface with him the way I see it. Those saying why is he Atom if he wont shrink, well first Atom means something else entirely in this show, its own canon and he might possibly shrink in the future, I dont think they have closed door on that.. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[wonderwall]

I dislike her now for a whole lot more than that one line.  I don't feel at all fickle about that.  I also don't see how establishing that she often says cruel things when she's angry in any way makes it okay.  It's consistent; that doesn't mean it's acceptable.

 

Oh no I wasn't calling you fickle :p But with the talk that people are disliking Felicity after this episode I just felt the need to chip in because I feel like some people (not on this board) are being rather fickle with Felicity. I only had a problem with Felicity a few times this year and most of the times it was due to her propping. Instead of being mad at her though, I'm more upset at the characters she props. Things I've been upset with her about: 

 

• Felicity going back to Ray AND apologizing to him to keep him relevant in this episode (propping)
• Her being Ray's partner even though it's clear that he is a really crap partner himself (propping)
• Saying that Sara didn't have light in her like Laurel does (propping)
• Helping Laurel dupe her father by making that stupid contraption that copies Sara's voice (propping)
• "You would like that wouldn't you" -- an aberration. It was just a badly written line in an episode filled with badly written lines and inconsistencies that made Felicity sound petulant

 

Also did Felicity even KNOW what Ray did to Roy? He can't friggin' just zap people randomly without good cause to. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by wonderwall

[kismet]

I seriously want to see the script for this episode. How did they forget about Roy? Who is responsible writers, producers, editors, actors, a combination? I mean its a pretty big oversight. You would think filming it, someone might have noticed that Roy was just lying down with no one to save him. Was it filmed and just edited out for time? I could get behind that if that is what happened. There is only so much time in the show, but then just admit it was edited out... I don't know how you write an actor into a scene, have him get hit by CGI electric bolts and then not address what happens to him. It wasn't just like he fell out of frame. I mean clearly both OQ & RP shook hands and walked away. I'd love to see if there are bloopers or Roy just hanging out napping. I mean he did spend a lot of s2 in a coma, so maybe its not surprising for CH to just nap away on set while SA & other cast members brood/argue around him. Even if the ambulance came for him, he still gonna need to be taken to the hospital. Poor guy all alone, does Team Arrow even have a healthcare plan?

Unless that is where Team Arrow will finally figure it out. I can see Felicity now all flustered that Roy gets shot with an arrow and then Ray is like well he's not the only one injured by an Arrow frenemy, trying getting electrocuted by your BF's new suit.

 

Poor Roy, at least the fans didn't forget about him. There has been very nice things posted. And those Lord Mesa cartoons, just spot on and adorable.

Edited March 28, 2015 by kismet

[apinknightmare]

Also did Felicity even KNOW what Ray did to Roy? He can't friggin' just zap people randomly without good cause to. 

 

It wouldn't make sense if she wasn't on the comms during that confrontation, because isn't she always? But it really wouldn't make sense if she was because a) these fools are talking about her like she's not there, b) Ray electrocuted her friend and c) he's calling in fake 9-1-1 emergencies to trap them. And then she goes and apologizes to HIM after hearing all that? Nah. 

 

But then...did Roy not tell her Ray electrocuted him? Did Oliver not tell her that Ray set them up? Did they purposely keep this information from her so she'd still think she had a great, wonderful guy? 

 

It's all so gross, haha.

[benteen]

Ray officiating the wedding might have been the most blatant attempt by the writers to get the audience to like him.  That scene was them literally screaming "LIKE RAY!  LIKE HIM!  PLEASE!!!"  Now it made sense for him to be there since he's dating Felicity and also to start moving his storyline closer to the other characters.  But officiating the wedding, really?  That's what you use Diggle's wedding for?

 

That whole wedding was not well-done and Diggle (and Lyla) deserved better.  How do the writers not do a best man speech for Oliver?

 

At least MG admitted they screwed up by having Oliver leave Roy after the fight with Ray.  I do admit that if Oliver had suddenly gone "Oh shit!  Ray!" I would have found that funny and just accepted that.  To be honest, just thinking about Oliver leaving Roy like that made me laugh out loud at work today.  That's how ridiculous it was.

[AyChihuahua]

I guess I agree that out-of-story, it's propping, but, in-story, it's not.  Most of her actions towards Ray, in-story, reek of desperation to keep a dude.  I don't like people like that IRL, and I don't like it in my entertainment.

 

In terms of another poster's comment about Ray not knowing her long enough to take her word for it...if they don't know each other well enough for him to trust her, then he has NO RIGHT to demand she tell him her/Oliver's secrets.  He does not get to have it both ways.

 

(Okay fine, I guess I still like Felicity a little.)

[nksarmi]

True, that one is 3 years in the making. 

That is interesting because I more or less liked Laurel in season one.  She had her moments - why did she need to go to the legal aid building when EVERYONE warned her not to? But I still mostly liked her.  I started disliking her in season two, but she was written for us to dislike her (or at least I felt she was).  This season, there have been moments when I've been outright cheering for her.  And I kind of feel like a lot of the hate is overdone and on Facebook it seems to be related to either a) Sara was better or b) Olicity shipping.  I'm crossing my fingers I will get to like her more and more as time goes on because I love Black Canary from the cartoons I watch with my kids lol.

[apinknightmare]

To be honest, just thinking about Oliver leaving Roy like that made me laugh out loud at work today.  That's how ridiculous it was.

 

I know it's terrible, but thinking about it makes me laugh too. Like he's just lying there smoking, all alone. I wonder how long it took Oliver to figure out he was missing or if he came to at the power plant all alone. 

[wonderwall]

(Okay fine, I guess I still like Felicity a little.)

 

There you go, buddy :p No but seriously I really would love to hear your thoughts about Felicity once she and Ray breaks up or once Ray leaves :) 

No but I really want to know, hundreds of people were involved in the filming of this and in post production, how in the world did NO ONE not even the actors catch this stupid mistake that could've been rectified so damn easily???

[dtissagirl]

No but I really want to know, hundreds of people were involved in the filming of this and in post production, how in the world did NO ONE not even the actors catch this stupid mistake that could've been rectified so damn easily???

This is the kind of mistake that -- if missed during filming -- the editing bay guys totally see. But if Roy disappeared from the script after getting fritzed, then there was nothing filmed that could be used, so it couldn't be salvaged in post-production. And Arrow has no money for reshoots, so it's the kind of mistake that you hope the audience will overlook.

It's probably why Guggenheim was so quick to admit the fuck up -- they've probably known they fucked up for awhile now.

Edited March 28, 2015 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

You'd think that even if everyone else forgot, the writers, the set people, Colton himself, the editor would catch it as the put together the episode.

I guess I agree that out-of-story, it's propping, but, in-story, it's not.  Most of her actions towards Ray, in-story, reek of desperation to keep a dude.  I don't like people like that IRL, and I don't like it in my entertainment.

 

In terms of another poster's comment about Ray not knowing her long enough to take her word for it...if they don't know each other well enough for him to trust her, then he has NO RIGHT to demand she tell him her/Oliver's secrets.  He does not get to have it both ways.

I agree about Ray, he has no right to demand her trust when he's not trusting her.  And he can't demand it retroactively, if he was okay with her keeping secrets before he started sleeping with her, he can't suddenly change the rules now.

 

Too much of this reeks of desperation to have a relationship. She's willing to overlook far too much of Ray's behaviour.  Even the line "You'd like that, wouldn't you?" sounds like she's projecting all of their problems on to Oliver's distrust of Ray.

 

 

It wouldn't make sense if she wasn't on the comms during that confrontation, because isn't she always? But it really wouldn't make sense if she was because a) these fools are talking about her like she's not there, b) Ray electrocuted her friend and c) he's calling in fake 9-1-1 emergencies to trap them. And then she goes and apologizes to HIM after hearing all that? Nah. 

 

But then...did Roy not tell her Ray electrocuted him? Did Oliver not tell her that Ray set them up? Did they purposely keep this information from her so she'd still think she had a great, wonderful guy?

If Felicity did know about Roy and said nothing to Ray about it, she truly has become a pod person to fit into Ray's storyline.  The Felicity who walked out on Oliver in the Dodger because he was threatening to kill the single father would never have given Ray a pass for hurting Roy.

[Chaser]

There you go, buddy :p No but seriously I really would love to hear your thoughts about Felicity once she and Ray breaks up or once Ray leaves :) 

No but I really want to know, hundreds of people were involved in the filming of this and in post production, how in the world did NO ONE not even the actors catch this stupid mistake that could've been rectified so damn easily???

I hated Oliver when he was with Laurel in S1 and parts of S2. Get him away from her and I loved him. I see a lot of that with Felicity and Ray. I didn't write him off so I can't bring myself to write her off either. 

[CabotCove]

In terms of another poster's comment about Ray not knowing her long enough to take her word for it...if they don't know each other well enough for him to trust her, then he has NO RIGHT to demand she tell him her/Oliver's secrets.  He does not get to have it both ways.

 

I think you certainly got a good point there. 

 

I just think the show has gotten so plot driven that characters are sometimes made to act OTT and too irrationally, Ray's actions likely served to move the triangle along, for a "comic book inspired" Atom vs Arrow take-down, and Olicity being in each other's orbit again for a likely a possible season's end reunion etc. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by Conell

[benteen]

I can't quite remember but did Ray tell Felicity that he had always been honest to her?  If so, that's a complete lie.  He hid his true intentions from her while he stalked her and imposed himself in her life.

[Carrie Ann]

He sure did. "From the moment we met I've held nothing back from you." I think several people here have made comprehensive lists proving that wrong (and if anyone comes across a gif set with this quote and scenes of Ray using Felicity for his own ends without her knowledge or lying to her, I'd love to see that).

Edited March 29, 2015 by Carrie Ann

[Scribbles]

A big reason Ray comes off as irksome is he is standing in the place of niave do gooder.  When Oliver left Ray's office saying..."You have no idea what this city is up against", he and the audience understand the truth behind the statement.  Ray said he went in to this endeavor in order to not be helpless like he felt when Anna was attacked.  Oliver (and the audience) see the many threats looming for Starling.  In a gritty world with really evil do-badders, Ray is the new "hero" on the block.  He is a hero wannabee. 

 

Bravery is often distinguished from foolish impulsivity by being an act done with understanding of the risks and overcoming the fear appropriate to them.  Ray hasn't been in the thick of the mire and his view of the hero gig is rather limited.  His good intentions could easily become problems that make the job of keeping the city safe more difficult.  It is not a game (as Oliver reminded Laurel earlier in the season).  Ray's rush to judgment is a bitter pill for those who have watched Oliver have to live with impossible choices and know that Ray hasn't a clue what that might require.  Ray's accusation that Oliver's time on the island must have left him crazy is just the sort of writing choice that puts Ray in opposition to the empathy the audience has been asked to develop for Oliver.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Watching THAT scene between Oliver and Felicity again. And it's a little different from what I remember. Possibly because most of the stuff I've read here seemed to have focused on Felicity being cruel. But look at the dialogue and tell me who really is being harsh here from the get-go. Oliver's immediate response to Felicity's rather mild "How did it go with Ray?" was "Not well. Yeah, your new boyfriend is stubborn. Once he's made his mind up, that's the end of it." (Right off the bat he's extremely critical. Which makes total sense given the circumstances. But that kind of response puts Felicity on the defensive right away. I mean, if a friend of mine said that about my boyfriend, I'd be all "Hey, wait a minute. Back up, buddy."  BTW, Oliver spoke to Ray for all of 2 minutes and he's made assumptions about him, just like Ray did.)

 

Felicity replies, "Sounds like anybody we know?" (Defensive and yes, meaning Oliver, of course)

 

"Not only is he untrained, he's unstable." (He just called her boyfriend cray-cray! Again, this makes Felicity even more defensive and she incredulously repeats, "Unstable?")

 

"Yeah, yes, yeah, he's unstable, Felicity, because he's flying around in a weapon looking for a man that has already killed 8 people. He's going to be next." (Oliver is not wrong about the weapon part, it IS extremely reckless — to borrow Roy's word)

 

And here's where Felicity lashes out, "You would like that, wouldn't you?" But even the way EBR delivers the line, it's less angry, more sad, IMO. I don't think she really believe what she said. But she's angry. Oliver is being dismissive and is judging the guy Felicity, whether she acknowledges it to herself or not, has replaced Oliver with.)

 

"Excuse me?"

 

"You never wanted me to be with him.

 

"Now, that's not true."

 

"Yes, it is. All that talk about wanting me to be happy was just talk." (Because if you want me to be happy, you wouldn't be tearing down the guy I've chosen. I'm totally going to ignore the fact part of what you're saying is true -- is I'm guessing what Felicity's thought process is)

 

"No, I meant what I said, right up to the point where I found out that he's just like me. You deserve better." (Damn, I've been trying to protect you from myself and you've gone and picked Oliver 2.0)

 

"What I deserve is to be with someone who isn't afraid of being happy." (Did you guys hear the "like you" as loud as I did, even during the first time?) "Ray told me he wanted a true partner, in his work, in his mission and in his life. Ray wants to be a hero and a human being." ("Unlike you")

 

"Yes, because he hasn't realized yet that he can't be. I told you I couldn't be with you and save the city. Neither can Ray. He's just too new at this to know that." (It's still a wonder to me Felicity's head didn't explode at this. I would have probably chucked one of the computers at Oliver.)

 

I thought the exchange was pretty interesting because a lot of things that were not being said were so much a part of their conversation. It's raw, it's painful and it's real. Things came out and both have been given food for thought. Anyway, sorry for the rambling. I'm sure you guys have a different takeaway from this conversation than I did.

[kismet]

If we on this site, Lord Mesa and a lot of people on tumblr can whip up reasonable scenarios to explain Roy's apparent electrocution and abandonment why can't they Arrow production team create a little comic to make up for the eff up? I mean it would be nice to get that instead of one of their other comic previews which is generally just a comic version of a preview that has already aired. I mean they have the capability. I realize you can't go back and reshoot, but you can do a few comic book shots. But I feel like its insulting to both the audience and RH/CH to not  address it, now that they acknowledged that it was not an intentional oversight. I mean it doesn't even have to be too far off canon. RP & OQ could both still ignore him. Although I would prefer OQ comes back for him after he takes his little power walk to cool off. And it could be funny is Roy wakes up all alone and makes one of those quippy one-liners hes been nailing all season. I don't know when I became so invested in Roy, but between this and

the deathwatch in the spoilers

, I guess I just am.

[lemotomato]

For all the discussion about Ray and how his treatment of Felicity made him look like an asshole, in this episode the show went all out comparing how Oliver fails at life compared to how Ray wins at everything. It felt like the Goofus and Gallant cartoon from Highlights, except with Sadsack Oliver and Ray!

 

Sadsack Oliver messes up as Best Man, showing up too late for the wedding photos.

Ray! arrives at the wedding and saves the day immediately, officiating the ceremony and making everyone chuckle.

 

Sadsack Oliver/The Arrow is accused of murder by the police.
Ray! stands on the stage with the mayor and other civic leaders.

 

Sadsack Oliver's hard work and restraint over the last two years to save the city without killing all gets ruined by the LoA.

Ray! flies around in a supersuit looking like a hero 

 

Sadsack Oliver acts maturely, disabling the supersuit without hurting Ray, explaining why he shouldn't go vigilante-ing and telling him to go listen to his girlfriend. He ends the episode with no girl.

Ray! yells at his girlfriend, attacks a guy without provocation, gets his butt kicked, and still gets the girl.

 

OK, so the last one doesn't quite fit, but that's what happened. I mean, I get it, show. Oliver sucks, and Ray's the best. 

Edited March 28, 2015 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

Watching THAT scene between Oliver and Felicity again. And it's a little different from what I remember.

 

This is an interesting different take! Thank you for this! I can see why Felicity would be annoyed by Oliver's remarks now. I guess why I didn't see it that way in the first place was because my dislike for Ray was overshadowing a lot of Felicity's comments. At this point I really don't understand why she's with Ray (who is a straight up douche, imo) so anything Felicity says in favor of Ray, it made no sense whatsoever which is why I got annoyed. 

[Password]

I don't like RAY'S Felicity. But I like Felicity overall.

This. The only time I've generally complained about Felicity being OOC was with Ray. I know others have said she's also OOC with Laurel but I kinda didn't watch that episode because it sounded boring...

I totally agree with @SmallScreenDiva. The entire conversation between Felicity and Oliver was brutal. When you see Felicity saying "you would like that wouldn't you" you immediately go babe wth? But then Oliver hit back with Ray doesn't understand he can't be with you yet and I'm like "oh you've done it now Oliver".

[lexicon]

And here's where Felicity lashes out, "You would like that, wouldn't you?" 

 

"Excuse me?"

 

"You never wanted me to be with him.

 

"Now, that's not true."

 

"Yes, it is. All that talk about wanting me to be happy was just talk." 

 

I thought the exchange was pretty interesting because a lot of things that were not being said were so much a part of their conversation. It's raw, it's painful and it's real. Things came out and both have been given food for thought. Anyway, sorry for the rambling. I'm sure you guys have a different takeaway from this conversation than I did.

 

Frankly these were the parts of Felicity's speech that were objectionable to me. Everything else she said I agreed with and felt it was good for her to call Oliver on those things. These statements though, just confused me and seemingly came out of nowhere.

 

He would like it it something happened to Ray? He was only pretending to want her to be happy? Say, what? As far as Oliver has shown he really does want her to be happy and in as much as its killing him to see her with Ray, he has been supportive and pretty adult about the whole thing so her lashing out about this just shocked the hell out of me. It felt out of place, especially as the conversation was about Oliver's objections to Ray being a vigilante and not Ray and Felicity's relationship. In fact it reminded me of the "I don't want to be a woman you love" scene where in the midst of Felicity's objections to Oliver working with MM, Oliver kept making reference to them and their relationship and her really being upset about that. I thought it was similarly strange for Oliver to reduce the very valid points Felicity was making about MM by bringing her emotions about them into it. 

 

I guess the reason that those parts of both conversations threw me for a loop was because it went to a place that didn't at all seem linked to the topic at hand and it shows that there is so much more bubbling under the surface with the both of them. It shows that even when we don't see it, they are constantly thinking about each other and their failed relationship and they are reacting to that as well. As the original poster said it makes me realise that it's the things left unsaid that are really interesting.

[lexicon]

This. The only time I've generally complained about Felicity being OOC was with Ray. I know others have said she's also OOC with Laurel but I kinda didn't watch that episode because it sounded boring...

I totally agree with @SmallScreenDiva. The entire conversation between Felicity and Oliver was brutal. When you see Felicity saying "you would like that wouldn't you" you immediately go babe wth? But then Oliver hit back with Ray doesn't understand he can't be with you yet and I'm like "oh you've done it now Oliver".

 

I would love for them to have a big epic blowout (I know, but it fits and I refuse to let MG co-opt this word) and just let it all hang out there. it would be painful and angsty as hell but I think it would do them both some real good, give us a great scene to watch (the things Amell and EBR could do with a scene like that) and most importantly culminate in an epic makeout session, which really we deserve after putting up with some of the BS this season. Now that's the kind of epic gamechanging scene I'd like them to put on my tv.