henripootel March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 They were making the point that she would have called the country the Soviet Union--just as Oleg said "You will return to the Union", not that she wouldn't have called herself or any number of things Russian. It was I who wasn't being clear. Nobody I know would have said 'Soviet Union' unless they were being bureaucratic (and accurate) or ironic. It's more than just shorthand, like saying 'I'm American' rather than 'I'm from the United States of America', identifying yourself as Russian and calling your own country 'Russia' was a meaningful distinction. I distinctly remember saying 'Soviet' once or twice to folks and having it explained to me (kindly) that this was a bit of a faux pas. Not remotely as bad as saying that to a Ukrainian but still not ... correct. Link to comment
lucindabelle March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 I thought she was asked where she was from and she said Russia. To me that is a little different and yes, she should have said USSR or Soviet Union.... that's my take. 1 Link to comment
RedHawk March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 (edited) Both Oleg and Stan felt something was off about Zenaida, and yet neither could find any specific evidence. I like that they bonded over that, their sense that things with her don't add up. I'm still laughing about Oleg's disguise, and on second thought accepting a beer from Stan. They've come a long way from Oleg threatening to shoot Stan. What's next in this buddy comedy -- maybe Stan will invite Oleg to EST? Edited March 30, 2015 by RedHawk 3 Link to comment
Umbelina March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 Both Oleg and Stan felt something was off about Zenaida, and yet neither could find any specific evidence. I like that they bonded over that, their sense that things with her don't add up. I'm still laughing about Oleg's disguise, and on second thought accepting a beer from Stan. They've come a long way from Oleg threatening to shoot Stan. What's next in this buddy comedy -- maybe Stan will invite Oleg to EST? They are both arrested by their own agencies? Link to comment
BW Manilowe March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 (edited) I'm not sure how close Stan is to treason this time either. I do know that as an FBI agent he is held to much stricter codes than an average citizen, and that unreported clandestine meetings while he colludes with a KGB agent for his own agenda is crossing the line with his employer. I somehow pictured Gabriel as one step above Philip, at least on paper. In reality though, I think Philip and Elizabeth are, at this point, considered much more valuable practically. I loved that Grantland review! I put it in the media thread, along with a few others. The reviews of this show are generally amazing. If you mean the 1 for this ep, which I think I Iinked in this thread overnight, did you get the "wordplay" I & they mentioned in it by 1 of the characters (about another character)? Just curious. Edited March 30, 2015 by BW Manilowe 1 Link to comment
shura March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 (edited) I somehow pictured Gabriel as one step above Philip, at least on paper. That's what it looks like to me, too. Same thing with Claudia. But not with Kate, I didn't feel she was in any way their superior. But all three of them were P&E's handlers, so they should have had the same relative status, shouldn't they? Edited March 30, 2015 by shura Link to comment
Umbelina March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 If you mean the 1 for this ep, which I think I Iinked in this thread overnight, did you get the "wordplay" I & they mentioned in it by 1 of the characters (about another character)? Just curious. No I missed it at the time, but that scene was SO tense anyway. Well done writers, well done. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 I distinctly remember saying 'Soviet' once or twice to folks and having it explained to me (kindly) that this was a bit of a faux pas. Not remotely as bad as saying that to a Ukrainian but still not ... correct. But Elizabeth and Oleg are KGB officers so would they consider it a faux pas--or consider it the right thing to say? Not speaking for everyone else in the USSR, of course (and especially not for Russians who may have left the country). That's what it looks like to me, too. Same thing with Claudia. But not with Kate, I didn't feel she was in any way their superior. But all three of them were P&E's handlers, so they should have had the same relative status, shouldn't they? Their superiority may come from their experience rather than their job as a handler--though it seems like handlers are expected to be experienced. They certainly made no secret of the fact they thought Kate's age was a problem Link to comment
crgirl412 March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 (edited) I'm not a fan of the "Spies That Love Nina" subplot either. Why would Oleg risk everything to bring Nina back to the U.S? What happens then? Will Oleg, Stan and Nina move in together in a Cold War version of "Three's Company?" I hoped for so much more from this character. No, it wouldn't be like Three's Company since Jack never slept with the girls but it could be a polyamorous situation if they both want Nina and she wants them a la an episode of Strange Love. Could even be polygamy if Stan and Oleg both "marry" Nina a la Big Love and Sister Wives (Brother Husbands, in this case.) God, I watch way too much television!!!! Edited March 30, 2015 by crgirl412 2 Link to comment
Blakeston March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 It was I who wasn't being clear. Nobody I know would have said 'Soviet Union' unless they were being bureaucratic (and accurate) or ironic. It's more than just shorthand, like saying 'I'm American' rather than 'I'm from the United States of America', identifying yourself as Russian and calling your own country 'Russia' was a meaningful distinction. I distinctly remember saying 'Soviet' once or twice to folks and having it explained to me (kindly) that this was a bit of a faux pas. Not remotely as bad as saying that to a Ukrainian but still not ... correct. But Elizabeth isn't someone who resents the Soviet bureaucracy. She's a die-hard Soviet. I think she'd absolutely refer to herself as such when speaking to someone from her homeland. I can only assume she said "Russia" to Betty because she knew that Betty would call it that. 2 Link to comment
henripootel March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 (edited) I think she'd absolutely refer to herself as such when speaking to someone from her homeland. I can only assume she said "Russia" to Betty because she knew that Betty would call it that. Solid point. I would say though that this is probably as revelatory as we've ever seen Elisabeth, more-so even than with Phillip. It was a poignant scene given that we all knew what was gonna happen, and in this vein, I took it to mean that Elisabeth thinks of herself as Russian first, not Soviet. It spoke well to her motivations and what she was willing to do not for her county's political alliance, but for her country. Honesty - what else can you give someone when they die. Edited March 30, 2015 by henripootel Link to comment
90PercentGravity March 30, 2015 Share March 30, 2015 It seems like maybe the closed caption actually said "Russia", quotes included. But I don't have the time to find it again and check. Link to comment
Dev F March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 I confess I don't really understand the argument that Elizabeth wouldn't use the term "Russia" because it's not what a good Soviet would say, when the whole point of Elizabeth's character is that she trained since she was a teenager to speak perfect idiomatic English so as not to betray her Soviet roots. It's not that she's making a particular statement by calling it "Russia" like an American would; it would have to be a deliberate choice on her part to call it anything else. We may as well wonder why she doesn't sometimes accidentally introduce herself as Nadezhda. 1 Link to comment
Catherinewriter March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 I'm afraid I've forgotten how Gabriel failed Philip. Anyone? Elizabeth is beyond redemption for me. I know it's the writers' doing, but still. And it's also the writers' fault, as there is absolutely no reason for Elizabeth to go upstairs to see who's there. As long as no one comes down (and Lois Smith would have had no reason to do to so), Elizabeth and Philip could simply have done their work, keeping an eye on the door above, and then left. On the other hand, it was a wonderful scene for Lois Smith and so I'll shut up about it. 2 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 I confess I don't really understand the argument that Elizabeth wouldn't use the term "Russia" because it's not what a good Soviet would say, when the whole point of Elizabeth's character is that she trained since she was a teenager to speak perfect idiomatic English so as not to betray her Soviet roots. That was the original poster's point, that even though Elizabeth was telling the truth to the woman she used the term an American would most likely use. It wasn't a mistake, it was the right choice of word. She could have spoken in Russian in that moment since she was revealing herself, but she chose Russia as the most likely American word. I'm afraid I've forgotten how Gabriel failed Philip. Anyone? By trying to get his daughter for the Centre. 1 Link to comment
BW Manilowe March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 No I missed it at the time, but that scene was SO tense anyway. Well done writers, well done. I missed it in the show too. But I loved it in the Grantland review, recap, or whatever you call it. 1 Link to comment
kikaha March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 there is absolutely no reason for Elizabeth to go upstairs to see who's there. As long as no one comes down (and Lois Smith would have had no reason to do to so), Elizabeth and Philip could simply have done their work, keeping an eye on the door above, and then left. Who is up there? Had they called the police? Are they are threat to P&E? I think Elizabeth had to go upstairs and check, in person. And once there, she had to take the steps she in fact took. Anything short would put her, her family and her mission at risk. Foreshadowing for Martha? 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 Who is up there? Had they called the police? Are they are threat to P&E? Well, they'd just heard the person first come in and turn on the light so they had good reason to assume they hadn't been seen. Then when she goes up to check she sees the woman filing, so it wouldn't actually have been impossible to wait it out or just make sure the woman didn't spot them. If not murdering an innocent is important, she'd take that step, I'd think. Philip's killed two people like this old woman and in both cases the show was written to make Philip take more precaution, even if those didn't work. Elizabeth makes the choice to kill the woman before she's a threat. Link to comment
millennium March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 (edited) Unless Elizabeth starts really showing me something other than a few suppressed tears here and there, I'm going to actively root for her to meet her demise. I cannot identify with a mother who would willingly - eagerly - put her child in a position where she might have to force an elderly woman to kill herself or kill an elderly woman just because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Its beyond my comprehension. And as the old lady said, it's evil. I cheered the old lady for finally being the one to peg Elizabeth for the monster she is (and Philip is no better). I had thoughts similar to yours last week, when the Parents of the Year stood by and watched the prisoner screaming as he was burned alive inside a rubber tire. This is what they want for Paige? To be part of shit like this? Is it just me or do those two only seem to kill innocent people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time? Oh Martha, you poor, weak fool. Edited March 31, 2015 by millennium 4 Link to comment
SlackerInc March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 I watched the episode again last night, it's very interesting to watch Martha when she explains to Clark who Gene is. She seems to be purposely averting her eyes as if she is not comfortable. That particular part of their conversation does not look natural at all. She is definitely playing something with her volunteering the mail robot info. "Definitely" is an awfully strong word. Personally, I believe the opposite is true--that she is just staying loyal to Clark, and helping him spy--but I wouldn't insist that I'm absolutely, 100% guaranteed to be right. Speaking of Stan and Oleg's Zinaida adventure, were they hoping she would just go ahead and tell Oleg "relax, comrade, I'm actually a spy"? And now the plan is what, that Oleg will hear at the rezidentura that she reported the encounter to the KGB? And if he doesn't hear anything, then "oh well, this is it, we tried"? I think this question deserves a lot more attention than it's getting. I don't think what Oleg said to her, and then what he said to Stan later, matched up at all--and nor did what he said to her seem to make sense in the plan he and Stan hatched. While I've been insisting that Martha is being straightforward and honest with Clark/Philip, I now believe that Oleg is up to something--either with the knowledge of the Rezidentura or on his own, but that in some way Stan is in for a nasty surprise. The only thing I can think of is that Arkady is waiting for Oleg's dad to sweeten the deal somehow and specifically. A better posting for a brother, perhaps he wants to be posted to someplace more exotic (that one is doubtful because he really has a very coveted posting). Nobody in that embassy/station got there by happenstance. I really doubt this is the case. I continue to think Arkady is just asserting his prerogative, and that he doesn't think the railroad minister is such a fearsome adversary. Note that Oleg's dad tried to be forceful at the beginning of the conversation, but quickly shifted to basically pleading with Arkady. 1 Link to comment
Ellaria March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 They've come a long way from Oleg threatening to shoot Stan. What's next in this buddy comedy -- maybe Stan will invite Oleg to EST? I actually laughed out loud at this suggestion. It would be more interesting than what we are watching now. I think this question deserves a lot more attention than it's getting. I don't think what Oleg said to her, and then what he said to Stan later, matched up at all--and nor did what he said to her seem to make sense in the plan he and Stan hatched. While I've been insisting that Martha is being straightforward and honest with Clark/Philip, I now believe that Oleg is up to something--either with the knowledge of the Rezidentura or on his own, but that in some way Stan is in for a nasty surprise. I hope that you are correct because that story line needs something. Link to comment
millennium March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 "Definitely" is an awfully strong word. Personally, I believe the opposite is true--that she is just staying loyal to Clark, and helping him spy--but I wouldn't insist that I'm absolutely, 100% guaranteed to be right. Sadly, I think Martha has sold us out. I can't imagine how low her self-esteem must be, to subject herself to that stupid marriage arrangement with Clark (before she knew he was up to no good) and then to betray the FBI for the sake of a man in a toupee. 2 Link to comment
heisey March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 The only thing I can think of is that Arkady is waiting for Oleg's dad to sweeten the deal somehow and specifically. A better posting for a brother, perhaps he wants to be posted to someplace more exotic (that one is doubtful because he really has a very coveted posting). Nobody in that embassy/station got there by happenstance. I really doubt this is the case. I continue to think Arkady is just asserting his prerogative, and that he doesn't think the railroad minister is such a fearsome adversary. Note that Oleg's dad tried to be forceful at the beginning of the conversation, but quickly shifted to basically pleading with Arkady. As I recall, Andropov did some fairly extensive house-cleaning after he came to power, getting rid of a lot of Brezhnev's cronies. I wonder if Arkady has inside information that Oleg's dad is on his way out. Or, if not, maybe he is biding his time, waiting to see if Oleg's dad stays in power. Someone in Arkady's position would be politically savvy and have good sources of information about what's going on at home. 2 Link to comment
kikaha March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 Did the show ever explain how the Soviets embedded P&E into the US, as Americans? In particular how they created fake identities and histories that would pass muster in America? Link to comment
sistermagpie March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 Presumably they started with social security numbers stolen from dead kids. I wonder if it's possible for Paige to look those up and confront her parents with them. Link to comment
millennium March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 Exactly. That's why I kind of think she's already confessed and is working with the FBI against him. She's not some dewy eyed young woman barely out of her teens here. She works for the FBI, and all Clark really gave her was love talk. They were both wide awake that night, both thinking. She actually HAS a fairly decent excuse, she thought Clark WAS Taffet. I must admit, you're making me second-guess my original impression. I hope you're right. I like Martha (and I don't even need permission from Elizabeth). 1 Link to comment
DrSpaceman March 31, 2015 Share March 31, 2015 The perfectly timed phone call the minute he walked in to Martha's place about the adoption was the most suspicious thing to me. Seemed fake and planned out. I honestly don't care one way or another about Martha. Whatever happens with her, I'll be fine with. I think she is working against Clark/Phillip right now though 1 Link to comment
scrb April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 Martha may be undercover but why? It's not like Clark/Philip is going to divulge who he is, his family and operational details to her. FBI might as well bust him right away if Martha spilled. 1 Link to comment
sistermagpie April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 Martha may be undercover but why? It's not like Clark/Philip is going to divulge who he is, his family and operational details to her. And what was the check up phone call? They would have seen Clark enter the building and then they call as soon as he walked in? So as long as he doesn't walk in brandishing a gun she tells them it's safe? Link to comment
millennium April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 (edited) I'm really grateful the last two episodes have veered away from the teenarama scenario. (as in the 1979 song by The Records) Edited April 1, 2015 by millennium Link to comment
shura April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 "Definitely" is an awfully strong word. Personally, I believe the opposite is true--that she is just staying loyal to Clark, and helping him spy--but I wouldn't insist that I'm absolutely, 100% guaranteed to be right. Neither would I. Like many people, I use the word "definitely" simply to indicate that I have no doubt about something. It's my opinion and nothing more, not insisting on anything at all. I think this question deserves a lot more attention than it's getting. I don't think what Oleg said to her, and then what he said to Stan later, matched up at all--and nor did what he said to her seem to make sense in the plan he and Stan hatched. While I've been insisting that Martha is being straightforward and honest with Clark/Philip, I now believe that Oleg is up to something--either with the knowledge of the Rezidentura or on his own, but that in some way Stan is in for a nasty surprise. Could be. Really, what we have here is a gullible FBI agent practically giving the Soviet defector he is supposed to be protecting to a KGB agent. What's there to stop Oleg from knocking Stan out for real, making him disappear, bagging Zinaida and scoring some points for catching the defector? I wonder why Stan trusts Oleg so much. 5 Link to comment
SlackerInc April 1, 2015 Share April 1, 2015 The perfectly timed phone call the minute he walked in to Martha's place about the adoption was the most suspicious thing to me. Seemed fake and planned out. You're overthinking it, IMO. For me, something like that is no different from the way people talking on the phone don't give the person on the other side of the call enough time to respond. It's TV: they have to compress things and move the plot along (unless it's, say, Rectify). You can take it as shorthand for "after they'd been hanging out for a couple hours, the phone rang...". 1 Link to comment
Guest April 3, 2015 Share April 3, 2015 I thought she was asked where she was from and she said Russia. To me that is a little different and yes, she should have said USSR or Soviet Union.... that's my take. I finally got to watch it last night. I'm pretty sure Betty asked her where her mother lives and Elizabeth said Russia. I didn't love this ep. I feel like Elizabeth's training would include not letting someone she has to kill blather on and show her family photos and all else to emotionally affect Elizabeth. I mean, even Silence of the Lambs taught us it's much harder to kill you once the killer knows facts about you. She should've had the woman lie face down on the floor and shut up, if she really had to reveal herself, I think. And how exactly could this have ended with the mission accomplished if there wasn't that handy suicide-looking option and a victim willing to play along? If they shoot her, the robot is useless. If they leave her alive, the robot is useless. The only smart course of action they had, I think, would be to abort the mission as soon as someone arrived, or to wait it out and hope the person didn't hear them. Waiting it out probably would've been what real spies would do. Odds are strong that it's a janitor who'll be gone in a half hour or someone who popped in just to grab something quickly. I also didn't love the anvilicious violin music when Betty was talking, or the ominous villain music when she was calling Elizabeth evil. And I didn't like the episode summary giving away that whole storyline. I'm a little tired of the gruesome killings. The suitcase, the necklace, the horrible Hans kill this ep, Betty... I almost miss Kimmy. I also didn't like Martha's reaction. She's probably going to kill herself when she's in too deep. And then Phillip will blame himself. I'm not looking forward to any of that. Link to comment
Roseanna May 13, 2017 Share May 13, 2017 On 20.3.2015 at 6:32 PM, stillshimpy said: So jeez, that "That's what evil people tell themselves, when they do evil ....things...." woman really isn't afraid of playing it big and broad, is she? Nicely put, but evil people don't tell themselves anything as they don't need any excuse for their deeds. On the contrary, it's good people or at least peple who regard themselves good an/or belive their aim is good, that use them. Link to comment
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