Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[BPOX]

seeing a soft, feminine black character who takes care of house and home is actually a HUGE WIN for our representation. Too often black women get told their perpetual single status (of professional women) is their fault because they are too masculine or too aggressive - so seeing a soft black woman held up as the object of affection is a big deal. Because it rarely ever happens.

 

I thought this was an interesting point, and it made me think about how Catlyn and Linda Park are presented. I understand your concern that Catlyn was set up as a back up love interest, but I notice they didn't make her a wise cracking in your face character either. I wonder if maybe they didn't want to make it too easy and tempting to fall for her character, given comic book fans predictions for the uber back up character. Meanwhile Linda, an Asian character is probably one of the most assertive worldly characters,  which is a bit counter to stereotype. Any of them could profit from more development, but eh, could be worse from this perspective.

 

I did mention that it was hard to tell if that was only a racial issue, not a racial issue, or because of the writer infatuation with the "Team Arrow/Flash" concept. Then I talked about how the Caitlyn and Cisco characters actually hijacked some of Iris' narrative based on her role in the comics.

 

That's a role that's been decades evolving, and as I understand it Caitlyn and Cisco have alternate comic personas of their own that might take them a bit away from Team Flash. So not to dismiss the concern, but I think it's early enough days, and with the Harrison Wells as villain plot line I am optimistic that maybe we can hope for some shifting and resetting of just who team Flash will be. I confess though that they haven't made it very clear to me just what Iris might bring to the super-hero support role, if that were her eventual role on this show too. Maybe moral sounding board could be part of it? They could use one with the jail, and the upcoming question of if to save Barry's mother at the cost to the timeline.

 

[phoenics]

For me at least, it is hard to separate out how much of the issues with Iris are due to race, gender, comic book tropes, one-track-minded writing, or some combination of those and other factors.

 

There are several things that in my mind are laudable about Iris's portrayal, including:

 

Iris herself is shown to be funny, smart and resourceful;

 

Iris has managed to subvert the damsel-in-distress trope on at least a couple occasions (doing the finishing move on Girder and taking out Clock King);

 

Iris is shown as a subject of romantic desire from both Barry and Eddie;

 

Iris avoids a lot of stereotypical portrayals of black women, such as Angry Black Woman, sassy sidekick to white woman, asexual or hypersexual.

 

At the same time, there are the issues people have talked about before inside the show (frequent lack of agency, frequent lack of involvement in the main storyline, paternalism) and outside the show (frequently having CP omitted from promos, interviews, etc.).

 

Judging from what many of these same writers have done with Laurel in Arrow, where the same issues have arisen, I'd venture to say it's not race that is the culprit, as Lauren/KC are both white.

I do see some uneven representation between Caitlin vs Iris in terms of promotion for the show - from just looking at the promos, you wouldn't know CP was the top billed actress (lead actress?) on the show. Many in fandom (mostly women of color) have pointed this out ad nauseum.

Also, I think my point is getting lost - I don't know yet that the writing for Iris is necessarily racist (sexist, yes) - BUT I do believe her race has led to a lot of mistakes in terms of the writing from the writers attempting to subvert some tropes, as well as outwit the racist element of the fandom. You simply cannot ignore those factors that put Iris into a "can't win" scenario with some aspects of the fandom - especially since black female tropes ARE NOT THE SAME as white female tropes or even other women of color tropes.

Thus, in order to write a character that subverts black woman tropes, sometimes you end up tripping over other "sexist" tropes. And fans attack over that, not understanding intersectionality at all. That's more than likely not racism - but it IS racial ignorance. When you tie that all together with the writers being a bit hamstrung in the writing and afraid to let the Iris character take chances (until they make the character have a fully justified reason - as in the case of the lies by the men in her life - and even then some fans still attack) because they are worried that the character won't get any slack.

Consider the "feminist" backlash against Michelle Obama for her "let's move" campaign. She was torn down by the white side of feminists who believed she wasn't doing enough with policy to lift women up that way and they derided her focus on domestic issues in the household. A black feminist created the tag #solidarityisforwhitewomen to illustrate the intersectionality blindness that many white women feminists have because they are simply unable or unwilling to understand that the issues facing black women are not the same as the ones they face, thus Michelle's focus on family and domesticity is actually GROUNDBREAKING given the image of black women as anything but wholesome family women (check marriage stats, etc.,).

[Chicago Redshirt]

Phoenics, I agree with you about the promotion for the show being strange. I don't know what explains it. The article referred to above about diversity in the Flash that didn't at least originally mention that CP was cast in a nontraditional role as Iris still has me shaking my head. Even if for some reason CP wasn't available or interested, one would think it would be included. 

 

I think that you are probably giving the writers too much credit when you suggest that they have been consciously thinking about these race issues, because they sure haven't seemed to be about gender. (Or worse, if they have been and this is a result, then we're in trouble.)

 

I think they've seen a number of formulas that they think worked for Smallville and Arrow and have largely copied and pasted. Iris works better than Laurel IMO because CP is a better actress in this kind of role than KC, and because Iris does not have to deal with the same sort of backstory. In other words, she doesn't have to deal with being the cheated-on ex-girlfriend of Flash who becomes an alcoholic, nor the expectation that she will one day become an iconic superhero in her own right.

 

I think when we start to bring the Obamas in, we're going pretty far afield. The sad thing is they are in a no-win position with a good chunk of America.

[phoenics]

That's true.

I do think though that the writers have thought about this (though that doesn't mean they've thought about it to the extent that I think they have) because they did tell CP to avoid social media after she was cast (presumably to spare her from some of the vitriol that they expected to be there).

But that - like you said - doesn't mean they've actually given much thought to it.

Sometimes I think writers need character advocates in the writer's room - or at least some voices of the fandom - so they might see how their end product might be viewed.

[driedfruit]

Sometimes I think writers need character advocates in the writer's room - or at least some voices of the fandom - so they might see how their end product might be viewed.

 

A year or so back, I read an article with stats showing the male to female and white to PoC ratios of tv writers. It was way uglier than anything I'd have imagined.

 

I'm not American, but most shows I watch are, so even if I don't react to race the same way awareness helps understand fandom's reaction. And certainly the issues with writing. 

 

I do see some uneven representation between Caitlin vs Iris in terms of promotion for the show - from just looking at the promos, you wouldn't know CP was the top billed actress (lead actress?) on the show. Many in fandom (mostly women of color) have pointed this out ad nauseum.

 

 

The uneven promotion between Iris and Caitlin is ridiculous. Though the difference in how much more screen time Caitlin gets over Iris is also ridiculous. 

Edited April 21, 2015 by driedfruit

[calliope1975]

I think it's a circular problem. Since Iris doesn't have a story or point of view, what is she going to promote? That everyone continues to lie to her? Even her new job as a reported was hamstringed by killing off her mentor. While she's made a few comments, I don't think CP is bold enough to flat out criticize how she's written. That's career suicide. And the problem remains until the writers catch a clue. It's frustrating for everyone - her fans, people who don't like her, etc. 

 

Until she's clued in on the bigger events going on around her, she's going to continue to be marginalized, and that's firmly on the writers.

[Trini]

...

I do not believe that was the case on The Flash. They cast a black actress (on purpose) to play Iris, but then cast a white actress to play a character as well and I DO believe some part of that was a "just in case" to hold interest in the show in case the "black girl" couldn't hold it down. The result of that meant that several parts of Iris' characterization have gone to other white women on the show (Felicity and Caitlin). Iris - in the comics, works with Barry the way Caitlin and Cisco do now (just not with the Flash part yet). Because Team Flash does that, Iris is left partially without a storyline. It's hard to say it's due to the writers fear that the "black girl couldn't hold it down" or to their infatuation with the "Team Flash/Arrow" concept - but it's a topic worth talking about.

...

 

I'd say Caitlyn's (and Cisco's) role has more to do with trying to replicate the "Team Arrow" formula. I don't think Iris' reduced role has much (if anything) to do with her race; there are stronger factors that have been outlined already.

 

I take issue with the idea that Caitlyn is a "back-up" love interest. (Is that even a thing?) That seems demeaning to her as a character.

(Maybe we could get into it more in the Relationships thread, but I don't think they will go there -- they will definitely tease -- but they know their endgame.)

[Oscirus]

Danielle Pannabaker is a pretty big name, probably the most famous name in this series among the age group that they're targeting, I seriously doubt they hired her to be a back up love interest.  If anything Caitlin is supposed to represent a more serious POV to the reckless fun one presented by Cisco and Barry.

 

Iris's problem is the fact that she has one character that is literally stifling her growth to the point that she's become irrelevant to the plot. Unfortunately for her, Joe happens to be popular amongst the casuals so short of his being killed off, his misogynistic stifling will continue.

.

Now admittedly there are some things about Iris that I find troubling, her lack of her own backstory, an over reliance on the men in her life, etc. but I chalk those up to bad writing as opposed to other factors.

 

The sole exception I can think of is in a sitcom, with Leonard and Penny in The Big Bang Theory.  Leonard constantly portrayed as a relatively good guy, but not good enough for Penny

 

 

Big Bang Theory is a show that repeatedly tries to demonstrate that Penny is the one dating out of her league. She only brings her looks to the relationship while he brings everything else.

[driedfruit]

I don't know if Danielle can be considered a big name. I doubt she'd be listed after Candice if she were.

 

Now admittedly there are some things about Iris that I find troubling, her lack of her own backstory, an over reliance on the men in her life, etc. but I chalk those up to bad writing as opposed to other factors.
 

 

How is Iris reliant on men? Her not having a POV or a storyline don't necessarily make her character submissive, since we've seen shows that she's perfectly capable to act and think for herself when her perception of reality isn't being manipulated by everyone around her.

Edited April 22, 2015 by driedfruit

[wayne67]

I'm not sure how relevant this subject is... But has anyone seen the latest news about Marvel Comic legacy character IceMan is now gay?

 

This development leaves me befuddled as this is a past version of the character and his future self seems to not be. The fandom for Marvel comics is firmly divided. Some consider this to be pandering, others seem to think they should have just added another gay mutant to the roster instead of subjecting the character to Sudden Sexuality syndrome.

 

Continuity isn't Marvel's strong suit so I'm not sure how I feel about this retcon. It doesn't help that it's time travel and it'll probably end up with an alternate time line version of Bobby like the AoA version.

 

Anyone with any opinions about the Sudden Sexuality trope ?

Edited April 22, 2015 by wayne67

[Oscirus]

we've seen proof that she's perfectly capable to act and think for herself when her perception of reality isn't being manipulated by everyone around her.

 

And her perception is warped because she trusts every thing these men tell her without question even with the statements don't make sense.

 

Anyone with any opinions about the Sudden Sexuality trope ?

 

It actually makes sense. The comics have been trying to correct themselves for a while. So I'm all for changing the sexuality of selected characters as long as it doesn't drastically affect the story of said comic book character.

[Cirien]

I'm not sure how relevant this subject is... But has anyone seen the latest news about Marvel Comic legacy character IceMan is now gay?

 

This development leaves me befuddled as this is a past version of the character and his future self seems to not be. The fandom for Marvel comics is firmly divided. Some consider this to be pandering, others seem to think they should have just added another gay mutant to the roster instead of subjecting the character to Sudden Sexuality syndrome.

 

Continuity isn't Marvel's strong suit so I'm not sure how I feel about this retcon. It doesn't help that it's time travel and it'll probably end up with an alternate time line version of Bobby like the AoA version.

 

Anyone with any opinions about the Sudden Sexuality trope ?

It's possible that the writers could handwave Adult!Bobby's   "straight" sexuality by saying he's still deeply closeted. But Word of God says that as far as the writers are concerned, he's is actually straight and will be treated as such by the writers. Which....okay then. There have been signs for Bobby not being completely straight, like him pinging on Northstar's gaydar, and Emma Frost being protective of him after she possessed him which, would make sense given what happened to her brother (who's gay) when they were younger wold make sense.

Many people like myself are complaining about the bi-erasure, in those scans, especially when Jean says dismissively "Everyone's bi"  because not only does it feed into the trope that no-body's bi. It's just what all gay-les people before coming out. But apart from that having Bobby be bi (which apparently is a much bigger taboo than being gay or lesbian) would actually fit with him having heterosexual relationships but still having to be closeted.

 

I......have a lot of feelings about this. Clearly it's not going to be explored well and is going to be exploited for a joke....see the next page

 

It actually makes sense. The comics have been trying to correct themselves for a while. So I'm all for changing the sexuality of selected characters as long as it doesn't drastically affect the story of said comic book character.

But in case Bobby's story has been changed. Like I said below if they're not going to write Adult!Bobby as closeted, but in fact straight, then it gets confusing because these are just younger versions of the people we already know.

[wayne67]

It's not that I mind if Bobby is gay. It just feels clunky that in 5-15 years of being around the most powerful telepaths in the world that someone would have mentioned it before now. It also feels like there's an easy out if it proves to be an unpopular decision by handwaving it by saying that he's an alternate time line version.

 

I have a terrible feeling that Bobby's gayness might even be erased as 'just a phase'. Which contradicts Jean's claim that he's full gay.

 

How does one become a full gay ?

 

I really do hate time travel plot lines because it's so often a cop out for poor writing..

[driedfruit]

And her perception is warped because she trusts every thing these men tell her without question even with the statements don't make sense.

 

It's a big leap from trusting to reliant. She has no real reason to think people she's trusted all her life are manipulating her the way they are, and catching them in a few white lies isn't gonna change that. Now if she catches them in a big lie and still remains unquestioning and trusting, then I'd put her down as reliant. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by driedfruit

[FurryFury]

I'm not sure how relevant this subject is... But has anyone seen the latest news about Marvel Comic legacy character IceMan is now gay?

 

This development leaves me befuddled as this is a past version of the character and his future self seems to not be. The fandom for Marvel comics is firmly divided. Some consider this to be pandering, others seem to think they should have just added another gay mutant to the roster instead of subjecting the character to Sudden Sexuality syndrome.

 

Continuity isn't Marvel's strong suit so I'm not sure how I feel about this retcon. It doesn't help that it's time travel and it'll probably end up with an alternate time line version of Bobby like the AoA version.

 

Anyone with any opinions about the Sudden Sexuality trope ?

While I realize this opinion is not very popular, I view sexuality the same way as any other characterization trait. So I react to Sudden Sexuality the same way as if any other important thing about the character were suddenly and drastically changed - which is quite negative. Especially if it's from straight to gay (or vice versa), although turning an established character bi also sometimes may look weird, if not set up well.

 

This is why I can't read slashfics. Characters changing their established sexualities just seems very OOC most of the time.

 

I'm definitely in the camp "add new diverse characters rather than changing the old ones". If you're concerned they won't be popular, set them up as taking up the mantle of  another well-known character, you know, like with female Thor (although it still sounds weird, because Thor shouldn't be a title, it's his actual name, but whatever).

Edited April 22, 2015 by FurryFury

[wayne67]

I'm not opposed to IceMan being gay.

 

My problem is that it's Past IceMan being told he's gay by Past Jean Gray who also says that Present IceMan is straight.

 

What would have been far better would be Present Iceman seeing his younger self and being confronted by the fact that the easy going mask was a front to hide his confusion about his same sex attraction to insert character here at that time. Then you could tell the story that some people spend years questioning themselves before settling on a sexual identity and he could be either straight, gay, bisexual or other.

 

This just seems like it'll end up with Present Iceman telling Past IceMan that it was just a phase he grew out of.

 

What would be better is if Present Iceman showed agency and admitted that he might be somewhat attracted to some guys.

 

It just seems super clunky and will be treated like his power set. He's alpha level, Loki upgraded him, he's infrequently displaying a higher level of power verging on Omega, Emma Frost has hijacked his body for months and shows he's capable of class 5/Omega power and Emma Frost declines to teach him for reasons... Then he's  depowered by M Day until he's not and it turns out to be all in his head or something. UGH

 

That's why I'm not fond of comic storylines, it's all super dramatic and meaningful until someone resets time or reveals a secret clone or something stupid.

[Lokiberry]

 

I'm not sure how relevant this subject is... But has anyone seen the latest news about Marvel Comic legacy character IceMan is now gay?

I'm not even paying attention to these people at this point. They made a big deal out of Loki being bi when Agent of Asgard first came out, and ended up mentioning it once in the first issue and then forgetting about it for the rest of the series. They weren't commited to showing LGBT characters, they just wanted fangirl dollars, and that's probably what's going on here.

[CabotCove]

I'd say Caitlyn's (and Cisco's) role has more to do with trying to replicate the "Team Arrow" formula.

 

 

"Team Arrow formula"?, I think its more like any TV formula.  Buffy made the "scoobie gang" concept more popular, Smallville had it with Clark/Chloe/Pete in the beginning. And just maybe the this show was actually inspired by The Flash 90s show. In the 90s show Barry has Dr Tina Mcgee who played a similar role to the hero like Caitlin's,  and in his lab Barry had an African american male assistant called Julio Mendez. Who was quite the joke-ster like Cisco

 

Arrow issues started with the first season, Laurel mostly only interacted with Oliver and didn't know the secret so it felt like she was on her own show that not many people were interested in watching and could be removed without it changing the storyline. It got worse in the second season when she didn't appear in a few episodes and not many people noticed. 

 

The Flash started out okay with Iris, she did talk to more characters than just Barry.

Laurel had Tommy, her father, friend Joanna as people in her orbit in first season, or do they not count? I wouldnt say she interacted mostly with Oliver either, if anything they barely interacted  IMO and that was the mistake.  Iris interacts with more people on this show true, but so does pretty much a lot of the characters in the show. The  Flash show/writers seems to love to play around with different dynamics  and relationships while Arrow for some reason tend to have its character in their own little worlds. Felicity mostly interacted with Oliver & Diggle in her first two  seasons but did she get the flack for doing so?, hardly, and they are many other characters that barely talk to this day. Meanwhile its only Laurel who gets the flack for something that is pretty much the "nature" of the show. I would say they are similar parallels between how Laurel & Iris are treated in season 1 (other factors considered, I think it somewhat exposes how irrational & extreme the Arrow fandom is when it comes to Laurel). While Iris gets hate, it hasn't reached Laurel's stage and Iris doesn't always get hate for some of the things that Laurel got blamed & hated for, like not knowing a secret & not being part of a team. There is some understanding that the writers and other characters have a part to play too.

 

 I think The Flash has done a better job  at having Iris not seem like she is in her own world when she doesnt know Barry's secret, by showing her & Barry as really good friends and having scenes often. Even though she is dating Eddie, they make sure that Barry/Iris still interact.  Regardless of future romance,  I think very important for any supporting character to interact with the protagonist. And  of course, the Flash tends to have its cast of characters mingling, those in the secret club and those outside of it, the science nerds and the law people, the human and the metahuman etc. Thats one thing I love about The Flash, it makes for better cast chemistry Imo. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Conell

[patchwork]

I'm hoping Team Flash is a season 1 thing and next season will have Killer Frost and Vibe. I think an investigative team of West, West and Allen would be more interesting that what we'll have once Wells leaves/dies. 

[phoenics]

"Team Arrow formula"?, I think its more like any TV formula.  Buffy made the "scoobie gang" concept more popular, Smallville had it with Clark/Chloe/Pete in the beginning. And just maybe the this show was actually inspired by The Flash 90s show. In the 90s show Barry has Dr Tina Mcgee who played a similar role to the hero like Caitlin's,  and in his lab Barry had an African american male assistant called Julio Mendez. Who was quite the joke-ster like Cisco.

Chloe didn't know Clark was "special" until much later and by then, Pete was gone from the show (ironic you call him out on a thread about race, etc given how he was disappeared from the show and HE was actually in the comics, unlike Chloe). That was not even close to the Team Arrow/Flash dynamic. Pete would actually be closer to Iris on this show - not Team Flash. And look what that got him as a character (although Iris' importance to the Flash mythology is far more critical than Pete's, so there is that).

Given the show's sad and painful attempts to try to turn Caitlin into Felicity 2.0 (she's not, btw), I think it's obvious the "Team" dynamic they were trying to copy with The Flash was from Arrow. It just doesn't, imo, work as well here. Especially since it required hijacking part of Iris' story AND making Barry stupid in order for it to work ("How fast do I have to run up the side of the building?" asks the PHYSICIST to the MEDICAL DOCTOR with no physics knowledge whatsoever).

Something happened to this show after the mid season finale.

Edited April 22, 2015 by phoenics

[CabotCove]

Chloe didn't know Clark was "special" until much later and by then, Pete was gone from the show (ironic you call him out on a thread about race, etc given how he was disappeared from the show and HE was actually in the comics, unlike Chloe). That was not even close to the Team Arrow/Flash dynamic. Pete would actually be closer to Iris on this show - not Team Flash. And look what that got him as a character (although Iris' importance to the Flash mythology is far more critical than Pete's, so there is that).

 

No Chloe didnt know that, but they investigated cases like a team and saved people, Pete helped too  most of the time in the early seasons. They were also best friends sleuthing together, just because they weren't official or in the pro business, doesnt mean there wasn't a team. If we are to talk about differences, the Team Arrow & Flash have loads. Team Flash was assembled from the get go, all of them including Wells are science geeks, and are DC comics characters. Cisco & Caitlin are bound to suit up one day, Diggle, Felicity not likely. Pete is likely the first person that got to know Clark's secret outside his parents, his relationship to Clark was platonic so Im not getting how he is like Iris. While it sucks they wrote him out so early, Pete Ross was fairly a minor character in the superman comics though.  

 

Given the show's sad and painful attempts to try to turn Caitlin into Felicity 2.0 (she's not, btw), I think it's obvious the "Team" dynamic they were trying to copy with The Flash was from Arrow.

 

 

Did they have to?, they have Cisco, who is turning out to be a brilliant light & super-genius character. Yeah they may lapse at times but I dont think Caitlin was meant to be like Felicity in personality. 

 

("How fast do I have to run up the side of the building?" asks the PHYSICIST to the MEDICAL DOCTOR with no physics knowledge whatsoever).

 

 

I think Barry was asking both Cisco & Caitlin, mostly Cisco. Medical doctors do study physics too I think.

 

Oh, OK. Anyway, I really don't think race is the key here, or even an issue. I do understand that there are shows with problematic depiction of PoCs (The Vampire Diaries is a good example, and also Once Upon A Time). I just don't think Flash/Arrow are one of them. They have lots of problems with women, though, and with the general quality of writing.

 

 

Race is still an issue in Flarrow, especially Arrow. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Conell

[Lokiberry]

 

I take issue with the idea that Caitlyn is a "back-up" love interest. (Is that even a thing?) That seems demeaning to her as a character.

(Maybe we could get into it more in the Relationships thread, but I don't think they will go there -- they will definitely tease -- but they know their endgame.)

The Teen Titan show that's being planned right now, has Starfire, Oracle and Nightwing all in the cast. Clearly, they're going to do a love triangle. Jane the Virgin has a love triangle. The Tomorrow People had a love triangle; it blew up in their face, but they still had one. I don't watch The 100, but I'm pretty sure they have them too. Arrow had a love triangle in the second season, with Oliver/Sara/Felicity, and it has one again this season with Felicity/Oliver/Ray. 75% or more of the shows I watch have them. How is having Caityn set up as part of a potential future triangle an issue, when so many shows, particularly on the CW, have them? That seems to me to be business as usual.

 

We don't actually know if they're going to do a love triangle. But, if they do, how is it an issue when triangles are a staple on the CW, and most tv shows in general?

[Xander]

I'm hoping Team Flash is a season 1 thing and next season will have Killer Frost and Vibe. I think an investigative team of West, West and Allen would be more interesting that what we'll have once Wells leaves/dies. 

 

I can't picture them being more interesting than what we currently have. Their rapport will be different and they haven't made Iris and her dad as a pair entertaining enough to carry the show. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by Xander

[FurryFury]

I don't watch The 100, but I'm pretty sure they have them too. 

Not really. It  is set up in a way that may make you think so, but it doesn't last. Very soon everyone's broken up.

And the "official" love interest dies in the middle of season 2 anyway, being briefly replaced by a woman of all things.

The 100 really isn't your run of the mill standard CW show (and I really, really recommend anyone looking for bold storytelling, interesting mythology, strong female characters and great character development/exploration to check it out, it doesn't get enough love).

 

How is having Caityn set up as part of a potential future triangle an issue, when so many shows, particularly on the CW, have them? That seems to me to be business as usual.

 

That's true. Love triangle is a standard CW trope. I mean, from what I've heard  (don't watch it) they've even forced Reign showrunner to include it in their show.

 

I think the latest ep made it obvious that Caitlyn IS a potential love interest. 

Edited April 22, 2015 by FurryFury

[Sakura12]

The CW loves pitting shippers against each other, the media loves it too. They love their stupid meaningless shipper polls to up their click factor. 

 

The 100 did have a triangle with Clarke/Finn/Raven, it didn't last long or amount to much, mostly because Finn sucked and no one deserved to be paired with him. For me he's the only character to date that even managed to make his death annoying. 

 

Caitlyn is definitely being set up as potential LI, I think they wanted a back up just case the same thing that happened on Arrow happened here. I do think Barry and Iris have chemistry, just not romantic chemistry. However I'm not looking for Barry to have another love interest, because I find shipping the least interesting thing about shows. I just want the show to be written well and for them to stop treating the female characters likes props for the men. 

[FurryFury]

Finn sucked and no one deserved to be paired with him. For me he's the only character to date that even managed to make his death annoying.

 

Aw, his death was a deliberate (or maybe not deliberate but still obvious) call back to Buffy killing Angel. It affected me just because of that, even if I did hate him with a passion (I think this moment was when I've truly fell in love with this show).

 

I think they wanted a back up just case the same thing that happened on Arrow happened here.

 

Exactly. And from what I see on the general Internet, it seems to work for some, I mean I've managed to stumble upon a "Barry/Caitlyn forever" comment on YouTube for a non-Flash related video, of all things. (It did have Grant Gustin, though).

 

I do think Barry and Iris have chemistry, just not romantic chemistry.

 

Won't argue with that. I still feel like he has the best romantic chemistry with Felicity, and even it isn't exactly OMG smoking.

Edited April 22, 2015 by FurryFury

[Lokiberry]

Barry doesn't have a lot of chemistry with any of the female characters. There were, however, several moments when I wanted to tell Barry and Eddie to just kiss already.

[Sakura12]

Aw, his death was a deliberate (or maybe not deliberate but still obvious) call back to Buffy killing Angel. It affected me just because of that, even if I did hate him with a passion (I think this moment was when I've truly fell in love with this show).

 

I got the Buffy/Angel parallels, but I just wanted him to die already. Lol I just finished the show last month, so I knew about it and was waiting for it. The show got much better after he was gone. 

 

The internet ships everybody with anybody. Caitlin may not stay a potential LI but she's there just in case. I also fully expect and want Iris to be rightfully pissed at all the men in her life, then Linda can come back and they can BFF's. 

[FurryFury]

Or maybe they could include the new ADA (or was she police?) woman into the mix. I don't want all the women on the show to be Barry's ex- and future love interests, as much as I like Malese Jow.

 

Lol I just finished the show last month, so I knew about it and was waiting for it.

 

Haha I didn't (but was so hoping for it!) so imagine my glee when it happened, I was ecstatic.

[driedfruit]

I don't think Caitlin is being set up as a LI, but rather that her fanbase is being led on. That ship is just not popular enough to warrant the complications of making her an real contestant for Barry's love anytime soon, and Danielle is simply not that engaging of an actress to take center stage. Perhaps they'll throw them a bone and have her with Barry in an AU arc, but romance is much smaller part of Flash than Arrow, thankfully, and Flash mythology is much more important to the show's narrative. 

 

And it's fair to note that both 12 and 19 hit series lows as far as ratings go, and they were both heavily promoted for ship drama and Caitlin/Barry romance.

 

What I've always hoped for is for the romance to be minimized and the female characters to be allowed room to exist outside of their relationships.

Edited April 23, 2015 by driedfruit

[Xander]

19 isn't a series low. It got the same rating as 15 and 17 and higher than 16. Plus the highest viewers since episode 14. And 12 wasn't promoted as a big CB romance but as LB in all the promos. Most people weren't expecting to see so much SB in the episode. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Xander

[Lokiberry]

I don't think Caitlin is being set up as a LI, but rather that her fanbase is being led on. That ship is just not popular enough to warrant the complications of making her an real contestant for Barry's love anytime soon, and Danielle is simply not that engaging of an actress to take center stage. Perhaps they'll throw them a bone and have her with Barry in an AU arc, but romance is much smaller part of Flash than Arrow, thankfully, and Flash mythology is much more important to the show's narrative. 

I think the endgame of Barry/Iris has already been decided, but I wouldn't put it past them to do an Iris/Barry/Caitlyn triangle next season once Iris breaks up with Eddie. It just seems like the kind of thing they'd do do rile up fanbases, and get the shippers to fight each other all over the internet. It's easier than character development.

[wayne67]

Barry doesn't have a lot of chemistry with any of the female characters. There were, however, several moments when I wanted to tell Barry and Eddie to just kiss already.

 

That would be so awesome. I felt like the 2 guys in the love triangle in Tomorrow People should just hook up because the woman in the middle of that triangle got everyone around her killed and was somehow dull even when she was ostensibly kicking ass. She managed to come off worse than the main hero whose secret life as a double agent was transparent to anyone with eyes and/or ears.

 

God that show was awful. The non chosen one was dreamy and endearing and he got sidelined so much. Reminds me a little of Eddie in that way.

[driedfruit]

I think the endgame of Barry/Iris has already been decided, but I wouldn't put it past them to do an Iris/Barry/Caitlyn triangle next season once Iris breaks up with Eddie. It just seems like the kind of thing they'd do do rile up fanbases, and get the shippers to fight each other all over the internet. It's easier than character development.

 

I think season two might be a bit early, unless it's in the second half, (they might stretch Iris/Eddie for a bit longer) but I'm sure the shippers will be thrown a bone eventually.

 

19 isn't a series low. It got the same rating as 15 and 17 and higher than 16. Plus the highest viewers since episode 14. And 12 wasn't promoted as a big CB romance but as LB in all the promos. Most people weren't expecting to see so much SB in the episode. 

 

I'm going by TVLine. 

 

In the promo for 12 Caitlin was stripped down to her bra and in her bedroom with Barry in a very rom-com scenario.

Edited April 23, 2015 by driedfruit

[Xander]

These are the final ratings

 

Here is Episode 12 promo with Linda in her bra. 

[driedfruit]

Regardless, romantic drama hasn't gone over well. I doubt a triangle with Caitlin will be more successful.

[bluebonnet]

It's so weird that a love interest is being discussed for Caitlin and Barry since neither have chemistry together, neither have expressed an interest in the other, and we finally get a CW show where a man and woman work together without the need to screw.  

[Oscirus]

I think the latest ep made it obvious that Caitlyn IS a potential love interest.

 

The latest episode played out like the previous 18 episodes  in that they have yet to have shown any interest for Caitlin from Barry.  Hell even the aftermath of that kiss was played more for comedic effect then anything dramatic. I've always thought that Caitlin would be his season 1 ending girlfriend but strangely little to no progress has been made on that front. So I suppose I'll have back off that prediction.

 

I think they wanted a back up just case the same thing that happened on Arrow happened here.

 

I think the backup in that case would be Linda Park.

 

I find it strange that of all the things to hype about Iris, that the writers choose to concentrate on her reaction to being lied to.  While I suspect that to be a crowd pleaser. It just  seems a bit underwhelming.

 

Controversial question.

 

If Iris handled her relationship with Eddie the way Felicity did with Ray, would she get hate?

 

[driedfruit]

If Iris handled her relationship with Eddie the way Felicity did with Ray, would she get hate?

 

 

Yes.

 

I don't think there's anything Iris wouldn't get hated on for. 

[Xander]

Pretty much all the romance on the show is bad so I don't expect romantic drama to go over well regardless of which characters are involved. I was just clearing up some untrue statements. 

[FurryFury]

Pretty much all the romance on the show is bad so I don't expect romantic drama to go over well regardless of which characters are involved.

 

This. Which is a pity, really. A well-written romance can add a lot to the viewer investment, which I'm personally kinda lacking at this point (although I wasn't really invested in Arrow until season 2 as well - but I still liked it more).

[CabotCove]

I think the latest ep made it obvious that Caitlyn IS a potential love interest.

 

I thought she would  be in first few episodes of the series,  but then her dead fiance came back, and the guy ended up being Ronnie Raymond, The Firestorm, one of DC's top superheroes. She is  engaged &

wedding bells may just be around the corner & Caitlin may become a future villain. I think Ron might be able to handle & love Caitlin like that than Barry

. 

 

I personally don't think they were or are going for Arrow/Felicity "formula" with Caitlin, just in case Iris, Barry/Iris failed. Why would they go through the trouble of bringing Caitlin's "dead" fiance.   I could see them going for two long term couples.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Conell

[Chicago Redshirt]

I've watched a lot of CW/UPN/The WB shows (Veronica Mars, Smallville, Buffy, Angel, The Tomorrow People, Arrow, iZombie, among others). Pretty much every one of them has had some sort of love triangle prominently featured, often more than one love triangle.

 

The only one I can think of that hasn't is Supernatural, and a) that's only because there's not a regular female lead character and b) even so, one could argue that there are slashy subtexty love triangles like Sam/Dean/Crowley and Sam/Dean/Castiel.

 

It's hard for me to believe that on some level the writers did not think that at some point they were going to play around with the notion of a Barry/Iris/Caitlin or a Barry/Caitlin/Ronnie triangle in addition to the Barry/Iris/Eddie triangle.

[FurryFury]

Ronnie's presence (which for all we know may be temporary as for spoiler, well, it doesn't mean it lasts or even not a consequence of time travel) doesn't preclude Caitlyn to be a LI down the line. I'd say we've got more teasing for Barry/Caitlyn than Olicity got in Arrow s1. The only thing that can stop them from hooking up at some point in s2/3 is fan reaction, which hasn't been that great (probably because DP is a pretty weak actress and the character isn't overly consistent).

[driedfruit]

It's hard for me to believe that on some level the writers did not think that at some point they were going to play around with the notion of a Barry/Iris/Caitlin or a Barry/Caitlin/Ronnie triangle in addition to the Barry/Iris/Eddie triangle.

 

Horrific.

 

Another issue with a triangle involving Caitlin and Iris is that the only female mains on the show getting pitted against each other over a guy is incredibly unsavoury.

[FurryFury]

It's really distasteful that the only female characters in the cast are ship teased with the lead guy. But then, these writers have an unhealthy obsession with giving their male leads more romantic conquests. I remember some Arrow writer saying they consider all female characters not related to Oliver potential LIs. Ugh. At least Barry's not a manwhore... yet.

Edited April 23, 2015 by FurryFury

[Chicago Redshirt]

I'm perhaps jaded because again, there are very few shows I've watched on this network, or really most networks, that don't intentionally go for triangles of some way, shape or form. 

 

The distasteful part for me is when being a corner of one or more triangles is pretty much the sum of the character's existence, as it was for Lana on Smallville and as there stands a good chance of happening with Iris.

 

Also distasteful: there are literally only like a half-dozen female recurring characters on Arrow that are not related to Ollie who have not slept with him or wanted to sleep with him: Amanda Waller (and I think that is going change before too long and it will be revealed they've slept together), Katsu, Kate Spence (and that may simply be because they to the best of my recollection never shared a scene), Laurel's friend Joanna, Nyssa (and you know she would have gone for an Ollie/Sara/her threesome) and Lyla Diggle. 

 

Meanwhile, Ollie has slept with Laurel, Sara, Felicity, Huntress, his baby mama, the detective from S.1, Shado, and Ravager. Iris has him on her list of guys she would be justified in cheating on her boyfriend with, and Cupid obviously wanted him. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Chicago Redshirt

[driedfruit]

The issue is different for Oliver, because he's canonically a womanizer so they were just taking advantage of that. But Barry Allen isn't.

 

I think with Barry they'll just continue to do what they've done for the most part, where they bait and have women inexplicably lose their clothes around him, or kiss him under unusual circumstances. Still gross, but at least Barry won't become a STD bank.

[wayne67]

I'm perhaps jaded because again, there are very few shows I've watched on this network, or really most networks, that don't intentionally go for triangles of some way, shape or form. 

 

The distasteful part for me is when being a corner of one or more triangles is pretty much the sum of the character's existence, as it was for Lana on Smallville and as there stands a good chance of happening with Iris.

 

Also distasteful: there are literally only like a half-dozen female recurring characters on Arrow that are not related to Ollie who have not slept with him or wanted to sleep with him: Amanda Waller (and I think that is going change before too long and it will be revealed they've slept together), Katsu, Kate Spence (and that may simply be because they to the best of my recollection never shared a scene), Laurel's friend Joanna, Nyssa (and you know she would have gone for an Ollie/Sara/her threesome) and Lyla Diggle. 

 

Meanwhile, Ollie has slept with Laurel, Sara, Felicity, Huntress, his baby mama, the detective from S.1, Shado, and Ravager. Iris has him on her list of guys she would be justified in cheating on her boyfriend with, and Cupid obviously wanted him. 

 

Is 8 women a lot for a straight man to have relationships with in a 5-10 year time period ?

If so I'm glad I'm not straight :P lol

 

Admittedly I stopped watching the show when Summer Glau showed up on the show. I got bored of the corporate angle and PR handling so I don't know what Oliver is up to but last time I remember he looked really good doing shirtless chin ups and he was a billionaire playboy so 10 women finding him appealing doesn't seem that excessive. JMO

 

As for Barry he's been involved in a relationship with one woman and that didn't really last long.

 

Are we slut shaming males now ? Is that okay?

 

I find it more distasteful when really soapy shows like Melrose Place and Days of Our Lives have their characters with interchangeable love interests so that at one point it seems like every single person that isn't related has been in love/ had sex with every other person of the relevant gender. It makes it so hard to keep track of how many children are related to each other and how their parents are especially with all the secret paternity tests and baby swaps.

 

I hate the retroactive hook up like what happened between Mulder and Scully, half a decade of build up and then their relationship whatever it was happened off screen it was lousy and I didn't even ship them.

 

P.s Can Barry even get STD's with his rapid healing power ?

Edited April 24, 2015 by wayne67

[driedfruit]

P.s Can Barry even get STD's with his rapid healing power ?

 

He could be a carrier. His super healing shouldn't mean foreign organisms are immediately annihilated, otherwise his digestive system would be screwed.

 

And you can't slut shame men since they're applauded for having multiple partners. You can't shame a group for something that's not considered shameful for them. 

Edited April 24, 2015 by driedfruit