Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[FurryFury]

However if anyone remembers "Nikita" another, now completed, CW show; a lot of these issues weren't present. Granted, it was a female headed show - but then again so is TVD. Nikita, Alex, Amanda, Sonya and even Jayden to an extent (before she died) were all tough female characters who managed to have sensitive sides and interesting pasts. The relationships they had with men were secondary to their own personal goals even for the non-main characters.

 

Until they've made Nikita/Alex totally secondary to Nikita/Michael to the point they've barely shared any scenes in s3. I've bailed after that. Nikita was awesome while focusing on their 2 female leads, not so much otherwise.

 

There can be more than one of or either issue.

 

But this is the EXACTLY SAME THING. And Iris is actually much better received in the fandom than Laurel (thanks to a much better actress and less cold personality). No real reason to think they are racist or anything. Diggle's black too and he's still fine. And they've made an effort to cast minorities on the upcoming spin-off as well (Hawkgirl and the uncast black character).

[FiveByFive]

Until they've made Nikita/Alex totally secondary to Nikita/Michael to the point they've barely shared any scenes in s3. I've bailed after that. Nikita was awesome while focusing on their 2 female leads, not so much otherwise.

 

I stuck with it until the end and I totally agree with you. They did, eventually, get back to focusing on Nikita and Alex after the inevitable Nikita vs. Alex but I think they had shed a lot of viewers before then. 

 

But this is the EXACTLY SAME THING

 

I think there are (like the topic implies with the comma) issues indicative to a character's race on a show and issues indicative to a character's gender on a show. Occasionally the two can meet and you have a character twice hated or otherwise maligned by the writers or fans. I also think it's easier to spot these things when you're of that gender or of that race although it doesn't relegate the views of those outside of that race or gender to the garbage bin.

 

Finally:  What I would love for someone to do is take characters like Iris and Laurel and apply someone like Laura Mulvey or Carol Clover's primary feminist film theories to them because a lot of what they've stated based upon watching characters like these in film still applies today. I feel like all of the characters mentioned in this thread as being problematic to one group or another are so because of the writers that have created them and not necessarily the actors playing them and that is a largely overlooked issue by fans who often see the character created by the writer(s) and the actor as one in the same.

[driedfruit]

I'm absolutely with you - the show was much better in the first half of the season. Yet I can't agree that the reason for it becoming worse are time constraints. We don't really know that. If you've read this in an interview (I haven't seen such a quote, though), it doesn't mean it's the truth. Maybe it's just because we've now seen the true colors of AK and co. After all, these are people who've killed 3 of Arrow's awesomest female characters, none of which deserved it, who've given us Laurel, and who've written Thea manipulated by Malcolm. They were never the biggest feminists around. I'd argue that the crossovers are not the fault. The cast's not that big - it was entirely possible to give Iris a better story and more screen time. They've simply chosen not to.

 

I don't think the writers have a nefarious reason in pushing Iris to the side. They're never going to be rid of her so it wouldn't make much sense to force their audience to turn on her. The time constraints do pose a big problem when it comes to writing secondary characters, and Iris and Eddie have suffered most from it.

 

If the writers were willing to alter their formulaic structure for an episode every once in a while, give Caitlin and Cisco a break for an episode, they could shed more light on Iris once in a while and develop her better. But between the formulaic nature of every episode and and the fan service, it's only too easy to push Iris aside. I'd agree that they don't care all that much about their female characters, but at the same time, I don't think they're out to ruin Iris the same way they killed off the interesting women of Arrow.   

[FurryFury]

I don't think they're out to ruin Iris the same way they killed off the interesting women of Arrow.

 

They are not. They just don't care about her. She's not a priority in any way or form. And this is exactly was shows their everyday, casual misogyny. This carelessness with female characters.

[LetItStop]

I'm constantly annoyed that Iris is always dressed in a skin-tight minidress and thigh-high boots. Compare her wardrobe to that of Linda Park: blazers, slacks, non-booty skirts. Obviously Barry HAD to dump Linda. Heaven forbid a love interest not put all the goods on display AT HER NON-STREETWALKING JOB. Bleah. I enjoy the show, but damn they make it hard to sometimes.

Edited April 19, 2015 by LetItStop

[phoenics]

Thing is, even when she has every right to be pissed, it still IS annoying to watch. I don't blame Iris because I usually try to blame writers in such cases, though. But this whole Barry/Iris/Eddie thing is horribly written and hard to watch, and as usual with clichéd love triangles, the center of it suffers the most in people's eyes. It's not really the fans' fault that they express their feelings. Should they just ignore that they dislike something simply because of her race? It's damned if you do (you get blamed by Iris' defenders), damned if you don't (the writers will think everything's a-OK and continue to marginalize Iris and treat her like a precious object not allowed to take part in the action). For me, I've made my choice and prefer to express my opinion by stating that the writing for Flash is misogynist and frankly offensive. I doubt that it will reach the writers' eyes because I'm not on Twitter/Tumblr/etc., though.

The point I and others are making is that IF Iris was played by a white actress, more fans would give her the benefit of the doubt and try to see it from her PoV. That's NOT happening with Iris (for a significant portion of the fandom) and that IS the fault of fandom.

Edited April 20, 2015 by phoenics

[Lokiberry]

I'm constantly annoyed that Iris is always dressed in a skin-tight minidress and thigh-high boots. Compare her wardrobe to that of Linda Park: blazers, slacks, non-booty skirts. Obviously Barry HAD to dump Linda. Heaven forbid a love interest not put all the goods on display AT HER NON-STREETWALKING JOB. Bleah. I enjoy the show, but damn they make it hard to sometimes.

????? I thought Iris and Linda dressed a lot alike: shorter dresses, really high heels, etc. I thought that was the CW's official wardrobe for female characters. I'm a jeans and sneakers kind of gal myself, so I don't pay much attention to clothes, but I never noticed much difference in the way they dressed.

 

Also, it's not nice to try and slut shame women for how they dress. If it's not your booty, it's not your decision.

[phoenics]

Until they've made Nikita/Alex totally secondary to Nikita/Michael to the point they've barely shared any scenes in s3. I've bailed after that. Nikita was awesome while focusing on their 2 female leads, not so much otherwise.

 

But this is the EXACTLY SAME THING. And Iris is actually much better received in the fandom than Laurel (thanks to a much better actress and less cold personality). No real reason to think they are racist or anything. Diggle's black too and he's still fine. And they've made an effort to cast minorities on the upcoming spin-off as well (Hawkgirl and the uncast black character).

Casting them means nothing if your narrative figuratively erases them.

[FurryFury]

The point I and others are making is that IF Iris was played by a white actress, more fans would give her the benefit of the doubt and try to see it from her PoV.

 

How much people give Laurel the benefit of the doubt? I think way less than Iris (and that's CP's doing). This is why I don't believe racial basis in this case. Because the creators have already failed once and the viewer reaction has been ever worse.

[phoenics]

How much people give Laurel the benefit of the doubt? I think way less than Iris (and that's CP's doing). This is why I don't believe racial basis in this case. Because the creators have already failed once and the viewer reaction has been ever worse.

I don't know if I agree. Laurel and Iris are very different characters and based on what I saw in my review of the reaction to both (I went back to twop to read up), Laurel was given a chance in the beginning - Iris got hate from day one... and she can't seem to win with some people.

I definitely see that with Laurel NOW, but she wasn't instantly hated the way Iris was once CP was cast. And yes - that part? That's racial. When you can pick out the same kinds of patterns seen with characters like Abbie Mills, or Uhura, there is something there. No, it's hard to prove (other than the receipts I mentioned before - but that's only for OVERT racism, not the covert kind that is so pervasive) - but those of us who have lived it know what it looks like. We know what it feels like. I get it that it's hard for those on the outside looking in to comprehend how we just "know", but we do.

I also wonder sometimes if the social media presence of fandom has exacerbated the negative reaction to a character before. When I watched Arrow and wasn't involved in fandom, I didn't see her in a negative way at all and I may not have understood every reaction, but I was definitely not a Laurel-hater. I can see now how the writers are desperate for people to like her, so they tried to have EBR's Felicity propping her up sometimes. I can dispassionately look at how Laurel is treated in the fandom and feel really badly for KC - how awful to have the LEAD actress role on a show and then lose it. Sucks. But if they would just write for her like they love the character, they wouldn't need to prop her up. They (used to) WRITE well for EBR's Felicity. Plus she was basically fan service.

I wonder if the creators of the show laid out a really good arc for the first 9 episodes and now they (essentially left) and the current show folks are flying a bit more blind? The first 9 were SO good - even character development was better for everyone. In the back half, Barry and Joe look like assholes (I still haven't gotten over Barry's "nice guy TM" nonsense), Caitlin was talking about "it's okay to peek" (WTF?), and Iris' infantilization has reached absolute insane levels - to the point where the story we were expecting for her (becoming a kick ass reporter) seems to have died somewhere.

How involved in the writing is Geoff Johns? And is AK show runner? I'm confused about who the Flash leadership is nowadays.

Edited April 20, 2015 by phoenics

[Lokiberry]

How much people give Laurel the benefit of the doubt? I think way less than Iris (and that's CP's doing). This is why I don't believe racial basis in this case. Because the creators have already failed once and the viewer reaction has been ever worse.

Laurel is absolutely raged against, and Katie Cassidy gets it as well. Even with the moderator intervention, she's blasted every time she appears onscreen. Every time a character dies, there are countless posts wishing it was Laurel instead. Compare that to Iris, and it's not even in the same ballpark. Plus, what negativity there is, isn't spilling over to CP.

 

Some people like Iris, some don't, and some are indifferent. That's it. In the Female Character Hate Olympics, Iris isn't even going to medal.

[FurryFury]

based on what I saw in my review of the reaction to both (I went back to twop to read up), Laurel was given a chance in the beginning - Iris got hate from day one...

 

I don't agree. With Laurel, a lot of people wanted for the Black Canary to succeed - but basically all of them didn't like Laurel. Some may have waited a few episodes to see if she gets better, but I remember people disliking Laurel and Lauriver ever since the pilot. I know I did. Hell, quite a few people went as far as to ship Oliver with THEA for a while because of how much they didn't like Laurel (and then Felicity appeared and all was history). With Iris, I haven't see as much vitriol, at least until they've started to really push Iris/Barry romance which is really, really annoying, imho.

 

How involved in the writing is Geoff Johns? And is AK show runner? I'm confused about who the Flash leadership is nowadays.

 

AFAIK, AK is showrunner for The Flash, MG for Arrow and Berlanti's mostly pitching new shows these days, although he appears to at least superficially supervise the ongoing events for the shows. No idea about Johns.

[Lokiberry]

I don't know if I agree. Laurel and Iris are very different characters and based on what I saw in my review of the reaction to both (I went back to twop to read up), Laurel was given a chance in the beginning - Iris got hate from day one... and she can't seem to win with some people.

I definitely see that with Laurel NOW, but she wasn't instantly hated the way Iris was once CP was cast. And yes - that part? That's racial. When you can pick out the same kinds of patterns seen with characters like Abbie Mills, or Uhura, there is something there. No, it's hard to prove (other than the receipts I mentioned before - but that's only for OVERT racism, not the covert kind that is so pervasive) - but those of us who have lived it know what it looks like. We know what it feels like. I get it that it's hard for those on the outside looking in to comprehend how we just "know", but we do.

I also wonder sometimes if the social media presence of fandom has exacerbated the negative reaction to a character before. When I watched Arrow and wasn't involved in fandom, I didn't see her in a negative way at all and I may not have understood every reaction, but I was definitely not a Laurel-hater. I can see now how the writers are desperate for people to like her, so they tried to have EBR's Felicity propping her up sometimes. I can dispassionately look at how Laurel is treated in the fandom and feel really badly for KC - how awful to have the LEAD actress role on a show and then lose it. Sucks. But if they would just write for her like they love the character, they wouldn't need to prop her up. They (used to) WRITE well for EBR's Felicity. Plus she was basically fan service.

I wonder if the creators of the show laid out a really good arc for the first 9 episodes and now they (essentially left) and the current show folks are flying a bit more blind? The first 9 were SO good - even character development was better for everyone. In the back half, Barry and Joe look like assholes (I still haven't gotten over Barry's "nice guy TM" nonsense), Caitlin was talking about "it's okay to peek" (WTF?), and Iris' infantilization has reached absolute insane levels - to the point where the story we were expecting for her (becoming a kick ass reporter) seems to have died somewhere.

How involved in the writing is Geoff Johns? And is AK show runner? I'm confused about who the Flash leadership is nowadays.

Well, Uhura was introduced 50 years ago, so I don't know how much we can go by that reaction. I don't know much about Sleepy Hollow other than Abbie got pushed into the background when the male lead's new love interest starting getting most of the screen time. As for Iris, I did not see, in this forum at least, any particular expressions of hatred or anger when CP was cast. There was fear that she might turn out to be another Laurel (who was hated from day one by a significant portion of the online fandom).

 

The thing is, most people don't hate Iris. She doesn't seem to inspire passionate feelings of any kind in those who aren't shippers or specfically fans of the character. My gut instinct, FWIW (which might not be much), tells me that if the fandom had issues with her race, it would be manifesting itself as more than comparatively mild dislike.

 

That's not to say there aren't foaming at the mouth trolls hating on her in the hinterlands of tumblr and IMDB, but they aren't where the civilized folk meet, and I'm not willing to judge an entire fandom by it's lunatic fringe.

[driedfruit]

That's not to say there aren't foaming at the mouth trolls hating on her in the hinterlands of tumblr and IMDB, but they aren't where the civilized folk meet, and I'm not willing to judge an entire fandom by it's lunatic fringe.

 

While I don't see it here, it's not just a handful of lunatics. I see the suspicious foaming at the mouth hate from recappers and critics, and when compared to how little we see of Iris it's rather egregious when often, the show's many other flaws are glossed over.  

 

I was recently reading some reviews for Daredevil from a popular site and anytime they praised Clair they'd go on hate tirades for Iris and how stupid and awful she is. There were no comparisons made between any other females from Flarrow verse (nothing about Karen and Caitlin for example) so it's hard not to imagine there is more at play there. So off putting.

Edited April 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[Oscirus]

Maybe it's just because we've now seen the true colors of AK and co. After all, these are people who've killed 3 of Arrow's awesomest female characters, none of which deserved it, who've given us Laurel, and who've written Thea manipulated by Malcolm. They were never the biggest feminists around

 

While I do admit that they have a remarkable tendency to kill off their memorable female characters, I'd have to say that in season one  of The Arrow, they built some  well developed, female, characters. Moira could've been a weak sobbing joke who only existed to be forced to do things when the plot called for it. But she wasn't, she was pretty bad ass. Laurel for all of her faults was another remarkably well built character. Hate her or love her, you have to admit she was memorable.  Hell, even such minor characters like Detective Hall stood out.

 

Compare that with this season of  the Flash. We have one female  who merely exists to either be protected or lusted after and another female who's in on the secret but is barely used in anything that doesn't revolve around her fiancée.  I won't even go into the minor female characters because none of them even remotely stand out. 

 

There has to be some reason reason why there's such a disparity between the first season of both shows. The only real difference I can think of is that one show has been concentrating on world building for three different shows while the other one only had to worry about itself.

[Actionmage]

The only real difference I can think of is that one show has been concentrating on world building for three different shows while the other one only had to worry about itself.

 

Yes, Arrow only had to be concerned with reaching the end of Season 1 when it started. Then halfway through Season2 they expanded the universe a bit.

 

The Flash has been trying to establish it's corner of the DCverse, but it isn't world building for Arrow. For the spin-off? More than likely, but then that is down to the showrunners wanting to strike before superheroes are less successful on TV.  It's not world building for three shows, but adding the frame of another room to the house.

 

The quality of  The Flash's female characters is going to be debatable/subjective, to a degree. I think the writers have done a disservice by the stories given the women, but I still like the women I've seen. The combination of what the characters are supposed to be and the actors cast keep me watching and hoping for better material for them.  To expect a Flash version of Moira is limiting, imo. Yet, what is Dr. Christina McGee, but an older woman who is a take-charge, no BS woman who is smart and has a bit of snap (and probably edge)? Very Moira-ish.  They are similar; Tina's not a copy of La Queen.

 

Also given short shrift, is another older woman who was reduced to making poster-maker and watcher in her own marriage-- Clarissa Stein.  The woman had no idea what happened to her husband of decades. A creepy man starts stalking the Stein house. One time, he actually gets in but is yelly and runs off. He talked like he was Missing Martin, but she was left in the dark literally and figuratively. She no sooner gets her  beloved husband back ( and he, his beloved wife), when Martin starts acting weird. Then he disappears again. But then he shows up and shows what the deal is with Ronnie and himself. With Army troops looking to kidnap them, Ronnie and Martin leave their fiancé and wife, respectively. Yet Caitlin and Clarissa smile bravely and wave good-bye to their men?

 

Clarissa doesn't ask to take on part of the burden of being on the lam from Eiling? She's not allowed to get angry about Martin not being able to stay with her or asking her to come along? She's not allowed to vent about  how the government is hunting her husband for being alive? The implication is that Clarissa isn't good enough/young enough/helpful enough to help the men figure out what's next. That's not cool. They could take aliases that make them a "family"- parents and son, aunt, uncle and nephew, cousins. Clarissa doesn't have to be super-powered in order to help or to be a strong female character. Yet, after the dregs given her in the two episodes she was in, I can see a future for her character that is vibrant and dynamic, if not showy or super-powered.  

 

Peek-A-Boo/Shawna has such potential to be a Catwoman-style character for The Flash! She seems basically good, but there are laws Shawna's willing to bend for reasons that seem good enough to her. After getting past the Flash Mob's imprisoning of her, there could be times Shawna's aware of situations only The Flash and his crew could or would take on. She tips them to the situation and potentially helps a little. Just not always.

 

I kept asking my husband if he thought Bug-Eyed Bandit/Brie was already a member of H.I.V.E. She settled on bees and is partial to bee/honeycomb accented clothing.  Plastique/Bette? No body, no belief by me that she's most sincerely dead.  Again, like in the comics, Bette could be a cool gray character to play off of Barry's overt straight goodness, as per the show.  Glider/Lisa still needs more work, but it's still just the first season.  Linda Park is a wonderful supporting character! She had a rocky start, but is seemingly on civil/friendly terms with Barry, the last we saw.  Poor Nora Allen;she's in five episodes, but mostly we just see her just before her death or dead or frozen in terror. We only see her a couple of times being supportive of and concerned for Barry.

 

Yes, there are named tertiary or day-players who don't necessarily make an impact with some or most of the audience. There have been five minor characters, at least, that have a chance of being more fleshed out here ( Clarissa and Caitlin never speak to each other or have brunch or something?) next season. There's even a case to be made about the Nora Allen and Mrs. West getting a bit more fleshed out via flashbacks, in order to answer why things are like they are in the present. ( Surely Barry and Henry have good memories of Nora, right?)

 

Just because the women of The Flash aren't all butt-kicking, name-taking badass ninjas doesn't mean that they are lesser. That is pitting female characters against female characters and finding Group B less because they aren't like Group A.  

[LetItStop]

Also, it's not nice to try and slut shame women for how they dress. If it's not your booty, it's not your decision.

Last time I checked, fictional characters don't get a choice in how they dress. The production staff makes that call. The differences in how Iris and Linda are costumed (and your lack of noticing doesn't mean there are no differences) is a deliberate means of presenting Iris as more desirable to men and further justifying both Iris's and Barry's shoddy treatment of Linda.

Accusing someone of slot shaming a fictional character is pretty ridiculous. Unlike race, weight, etc., costuming is imposed upon the actor by production staff. The way they are choosing to dress Iris is another layer of misogyny. As in, "We can't be bothered to make her interesting or likable. Make her sexy instead. That's enough to justify Barry's undying love, for sure."

Edited April 20, 2015 by LetItStop

[driedfruit]

I think a reason that Flash's female characters feel worse off than Arrow's is due to how the overarching structure of the show is more male dominant. On Flash, after Barry, the two most important characters are Wells and Joe. And out of the remaining regulars, Cisco and Caitlin are about equal in importance, as are Eddie and Iris. Compare that to season one of Arrow where after Oliver, Laurel ranked second, with Diggle, Moira, Thea, and Tommy as the regulars ranked below them.

 

Last time I checked, fictional characters don't get a choice in how they dress. The production staff makes that call. The differences in how Iris and Linda are costumed (and your lack of noticing doesn't mean there are no differences) is a deliberate means of presenting Iris as more desirable to men and further justifying both Iris's and Barry's shoddy treatment of Linda.

Accusing someone of slot shaming a fictional character is pretty ridiculous. Unlike race, weight, etc., costuming is imposed upon the actor by production staff. The way they are choosing to dress Iris is another layer of misogyny. As in, "We can't be bothered to make her interesting or likable. Make her sexy instead. That's enough to justify Barry's undying love, for sure."

 

Iris is the only recurring female character we haven't seen unnecessarily stripped down to her bra, so I'd have to disagree. (Linda was stripped down by her second appearance)

 

Iris' wardrobe is rather tame for CW. She rarely shows cleavage, wears tights with short dresses, her heels are always moderate, most of her wardrobe consists of long baggy blouses and loose blazers... And I like how Iris doesn't get unnecessarily ass shots (Arrow is definitely guilty of this). 

 

Even so, I don't always mind a character getting a more sexy wardrobe if it's relevant to the story. Season four of Smallville had Lois in really tight, body revealing clothes. And at the same time, Clark spent more time without his shirt. I thought it was an effective way to show his character's sexual maturity and more adult relationship with Lois vs. Clark/Lana. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[Cirien]

I think a reason that Flash's female characters feel worse off than Arrow's is due to how the overarching structure of the show is more male dominant. On Flash, after Barry, the two most important characters are Wells and Joe. And out of the remaining regulars, Cisco and Caitlin are about equal in importance, as are Eddie and Iris. Compare that to season one of Arrow where after Oliver, Laurel ranked second, with Diggle, Moira, Thea, and Tommy as the regulars ranked below them.

 

 

Iris is the only recurring female character we haven't seen unnecessarily stripped down to her bra, so I'd have to disagree. (Linda was stripped down by her second appearance)

 

Iris' wardrobe is rather tame for CW. She rarely shows cleavage, wears tights with short dresses, her heels are always moderate, most of her wardrobe consists of long baggy blouses and loose blazers... And I like how Iris doesn't get unnecessarily ass shots (Arrow is definitely guilty of this). 

 

Even so, I don't always mind a character getting a more sexy wardrobe if it's relevant to the story. Season four of Smallville had Lois in really tight, body revealing clothes. And at the same time, Clark spent more time without his shirt. I thought it was an effective way to show his character's sexual maturity and more adult relationship with Lois vs. Clark/Lana. 

SV women *all* wore sexy revealing clothes. Lois wore Tank tops an jeans for her first eps. When it came to season 4 Chloe and Lana really got sexed up.

[driedfruit]

SV women *all* wore sexy revealing clothes. Lois wore Tank tops an jeans for her first eps. When it came to season 4 Chloe and Lana really got sexed up.

 

Lana and Chloe didn't dress like nuns, but I remember Lois used to get slut shamed a lot for her tank-tops and bikinis and not so much the others. But yes, season four was when everyone started showing off more skin. 

Edited April 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[phoenics]

Well, Uhura was introduced 50 years ago, so I don't know how much we can go by that reaction. I don't know much about Sleepy Hollow other than Abbie got pushed into the background when the male lead's new love interest starting getting most of the screen time. As for Iris, I did not see, in this forum at least, any particular expressions of hatred or anger when CP was cast. There was fear that she might turn out to be another Laurel (who was hated from day one by a significant portion of the online fandom).

Actually when referencing Uhura, I was referring to Zoe Zaldana's portrayal - and the reaction there has been very ugly at times. I wasn't talking about the original Uhura at all. Her relationship with Spock set off a nuclear reaction in the fandom - and before the movie came out, folks thought she was going to be paired with Kirk and it was a similar reaction. Some of that is due to Spock/Kirk shipping, but a LOT of it has been racism.

And I'm a bit weary of the "it's not happening in this fandom on these boards, so no need to discuss!" comments. It IS happening - so why can't we discuss it? It's also not limited to JUST the overt "n-word" part of the fandom - if it was JUST that, I wouldn't even complain, because THAT kind of racism is easy to fight. It's the more covert forms of racism that many people have trouble understanding and in most cases, many people who have never experienced racism seem to prefer to not acknowledge it or not believe the People of Color who are trying to point it out.

The end result is that people of color become even more marginalized for trying to call attention to the more covert forms of racism - which tend to stem from systemic systems of oppression and - I'm just going to say it - a society that operates under a very white privileged construct. This privilege becomes apparent when a significant portion of screaming white fangirls cannot seem to bring themselves to identify with a black female leading lady (if she's paired with a white male) so they automatically (before the show even airs) support the only white female on the show instead... even though women of color have been rooting for white female leads for like - ever... oh and we only got a black female leading lady in a drama when Olivia Pope showed up - and it took a black woman producer to make THAT happen.

The worst kind of racism is not the kind that you seem to be focusing on. It's the covert kind. Redlining. White flight. "Code black on aisle 3!" <-- yes I experienced that even though at the time I attended a college that cost more than the clerk made in a year. Skipping over job applications with an "ethnic" sounding name. Cultural appropriation. PoC erasure on media. These kinds of things are much harder to pinpoint and pin down - which is why these systems have been going around so long.

It's why Iris doesn't seem to get the benefit of the doubt from some fans.

It's great that it's not happening here, but it's happening - which is why I thought this thread was here? To discuss it?

The thing is, most people don't hate Iris. She doesn't seem to inspire passionate feelings of any kind in those who aren't shippers or specfically fans of the character. My gut instinct, FWIW (which might not be much), tells me that if the fandom had issues with her race, it would be manifesting itself as more than comparatively mild dislike.

 

That's not to say there aren't foaming at the mouth trolls hating on her in the hinterlands of tumblr and IMDB, but they aren't where the civilized folk meet, and I'm not willing to judge an entire fandom by it's lunatic fringe.

I have issues with your characterization of racism - which I've outlined above.

As I've mentioned several times - they are also all over twitter and FB.

 

There was also a particularly offensive interview with CP where the interviewer declared that Iris was hated by the majority of the fandom - seriously - this was an actual interview. Thankfully the people in the comments railed at him - but still - this bullsh!t actually was put up as a legit interview. WTF?

[patchwork]

I don't remember much about Lois's everyday clothes but I do remember that entire plots seemed to be constructed around the idea of getting her into skimpy outfits. 

[Oscirus]

Just because the women of The Flash aren't all butt-kicking, name-taking badass ninjas doesn't mean that they are lesser. That is pitting female characters against female characters and finding Group B less because they aren't like Group A.

 

Other then the Huntress, none of the females in season one of the arrow would count as bad ass ninjas and I didn't even bring her up.  As a matter of fact, I'm not asking for carbon copies of the females on that show.  What I want is for the women on this show to be diverse and dynamic with storylines and friends of their own that won't get swept aside whenever the next crossover happens.

[phoenics]

Other then the Huntress, none of the females in season one of the arrow would count as bad ass ninjas and I didn't even bring her up.  As a matter of fact, I'm not asking for carbon copies of the females on that show.  What I want is for the women on this show to be diverse and dynamic with storylines and friends of their own that won't get swept aside whenever the next crossover happens.

You bring up an interesting point: Iris has been getting some flak for not having her career nailed down yet and in some circles, she's deemed not good enough for Barry because she's into science.

It kinda feels like (from the cases I've seen) women judging women - especially women judging women on their suitability for the male.

[driedfruit]

You bring up an interesting point: Iris has been getting some flak for not having her career nailed down yet and in some circles, she's deemed not good enough for Barry because she's into science.

It kinda feels like (from the cases I've seen) women judging women - especially women judging women on their suitability for the male.

 

Usually when a male character is deemed unworthy of a female character he's a hideous tool to her and in general. But female characters have to satisfy a checklist to be worthy in the first place.

 

 There was also a particularly offensive interview with CP where the interviewer declared that Iris was hated by the majority of the fandom - seriously - this was an actual interview. Thankfully the people in the comments railed at him - but still - this bullsh!t actually was put up as a legit interview. WTF?

 

 

Certain members of the media are too ready to show off their idiocy around her. She's always so graceful about it, but it's sad that any actress has to put up with this, especially one whose brilliant portrayal is what's saving the character in the first place. 

 

I don't know how CW lucked out with someone like Candice, but holy shit is she under-appreciated.  

Edited April 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[Lokiberry]

 

ctually when referencing Uhura, I was referring to Zoe Zaldana's portrayal - and the reaction there has been very ugly at times. I wasn't talking about the original Uhura at all. Her relationship with Spock set off a nuclear reaction in the fandom - and before the movie came out, folks thought she was going to be paired with Kirk and it was a similar reaction. Some of that is due to Spock/Kirk shipping, but a LOT of it has been racism.

 

And I'm a bit weary of the "it's not happening in this fandom on these boards, so no need to discuss!" comments. It IS happening - so why can't we discuss it? It's also not limited to JUST the overt "n-word" part of the fandom - if it was JUST that, I wouldn't even complain, because THAT kind of racism is easy to fight. It's the more covert forms of racism that many people have trouble understanding and in most cases, many people who have never experienced racism seem to prefer to not acknowledge it or not believe the People of Color who are trying to point it out.

 

The end result is that people of color become even more marginalized for trying to call attention to the more covert forms of racism - which tend to stem from systemic systems of oppression and - I'm just going to say it - a society that operates under a very white privileged construct. This privilege becomes apparent when a significant portion of screaming white fangirls cannot seem to bring themselves to identify with a black female leading lady (if she's paired with a white male) so they automatically (before the show even airs) support the only white female on the show instead... even though women of color have been rooting for white female leads for like - ever... oh and we only got a black female leading lady in a drama when Olivia Pope showed up - and it took a black woman producer to make THAT happen.

I actually did not know that there was that kind of reaction to the pairing of Spock/Uhura. I come out of classic Trek fandom, and thought any objections to the pairing would be from K/S shippers or purists who would have a problem with Spock having a love interest at all. I'm disappointed to find out that people reacted that way.

 

I accept that you are right and there are fangirls, and obnoxious media reviewers, who don't want Iris as Barry's love interest because of the color of her skin. What do you want to happen? Specifically, what do you want to happen here? Should there be no criticism of Iris? Should there be no shipping of Barry with anyone else? Should I keep my burgeoning Barry/Cisco feelings to myself? Do you want Iris to be treated differently than all the other female characters in fandom, who have supporters, and haters, and opposing shippers?

[driedfruit]

Should I keep my burgeoning Barry/Cisco feelings to myself?

 

Racists tend to see Cisco as asexual too, not just Iris. I'd be down with Cisco/Barry myself, they've certainly got better chemistry than Barry/Eddie and Barry/Caitlin combined.

Edited April 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[SevenStars]

The worst kind of racism is not the kind that you seem to be focusing on. It's the covert kind. Redlining. White flight. "Code black on aisle 3!" <-- yes I experienced that even though at the time I attended a college that cost more than the clerk made in a year. Skipping over job applications with an "ethnic" sounding name. Cultural appropriation. PoC erasure on media. These kinds of things are much harder to pinpoint and pin down - which is why these systems have been going around so long.

 

Yeah, it is the worst kind, not only because it is harder to fight against but also because POC are the ones who are able to see it, and feel it since it affect them. So they are unable to ignore it or act like it is not there for the most part, even when they want to. Unfortunately, because we live in white privilege society, it also means that nothing will really be done about it, since POC experience and their ability to point out the wrong that is being done against them are not trusted. They are considered to be unreliable, not intellectual enough and too bias for their account of what is happening to be trusted.  This is in fact where I think the whole white savoir trope in regard to POC  develop because the only way society will trust, pay attention to and believe something is happening that is hurting POC, is if a white person say it is happening and it is hurting POC. But POC can spent all their time telling people the same think that the white person did, everyone will either ignore them, or call them liars or claim they are exaggerating or over-reacting. This is one of the reasons POC twist themselves in pretzel trying to get a few white people to hear them and side with them, so that they can finally have someone that society will listen to and believe. 

 

I already knew that Iris being black would have an affect on people's feelings regarding her, because no matter how much people wish for it or want to believe it, we are not a post-racial society and fandoms are made of people from our society.  Whatever society feed us, that is what we will bring back into the fandom and since we are far away from having a post-racial society, I expected race to play a part.

 

The fact that Iris have no POV in almost ANYTHING, including her relationship with Eddie, Joe or even Barry until the writers want us to sympathized with Barry, then they have her say something or do something that will make us feel sorry for Barry being in love with her, just makes it worst. It is also justified people's dislike for Iris.

Edited April 20, 2015 by SevenStars

[marketdoctor]

 

Usually when a male character is deemed unworthy of a female character he's a hideous tool to her and in general. But female characters have to satisfy a checklist to be worthy in the first place.

 

The sole exception I can think of is in a sitcom, with Leonard and Penny in The Big Bang Theory.  Leonard constantly portrayed as a relatively good guy, but not good enough for Penny.  In dramas and most other sitcoms, it's more like Homer and Marge Simpson (and Marge is often held up as a noble person for "standing by her man"--though there are worse men than Homer Simpson.)

 

 

You bring up an interesting point: Iris has been getting some flak for not having her career nailed down yet and in some circles, she's deemed not good enough for Barry because she's into science.

 

One of the things that's strange about this is that he's a police SCIENTIST (sorry for shouting.)  That's one of the reasons I hope they give her a decent reason for not figuring out Barry's secret (perhaps that she knows, but didn't say anything, because unlike Barry she knows that a secret identity should be, well, secret.)

 

 

The worst kind of racism is not the kind that you seem to be focusing on. It's the covert kind. Redlining. White flight.

 

Also unspoken profiling and various "disparate impact" racism characteristics.  It's almost ironic, because CP is an example of one type of covert racism/sexism I've seen:  attractive women are slightly less likely to face discrimination ("slightly" because it still happens and it's still worse than bad.)  Very smart, talented, and /or attractive women sometimes get opportunities that other women don't, and are then held up as examples of why a person or a system isn't racist/sexist, because there are a handful of people who could break through the barriers.  It's not a glass ceiling so much as it is a ceiling of thorns:  you can break through, but you've got to be really dedicated and even then it's going to hurt.  Some people are better at cutting the thorns away, or appreciating the roses; others complain that "my feet hurt too" from reverse discrimination (which I've experienced, but I'm aware enough to notice it's much less than discrimination--and it's like equating getting regular Coke instead of Diet Coke with losing a scholarship because your guidance counselor is racist (that happened to a friend of mine).  

 

That said, women like CP also open the door, because when people say "I'm not..." they want to keep proving it, and eventually the world is a slightly better place.  That's not enough, but it's the right direction. 

[Oscirus]

Should I keep my burgeoning Barry/Cisco feelings to myself?

 

Now that you mention it, a cisco barry Iris love triangle needs to happen. I think that would probably piss off the most possible viewers.

[marketdoctor]

 

I actually did not know that there was that kind of reaction to the pairing of Spock/Uhura.

 

This one goes back, but it relates to the DC Universe.  When the 1960's Batman was one, lore has it that they had Julie Newmar play Catwoman instead of Eartha Kitt because they wanted Batman to be able to kiss Catwoman.  Gene Roddenberry had no such hang-ups, and had Kirk and Uhura kiss in Plato's Children.  This doesn't bear up to history (Julie Newmar was Catwoman in the episodes that showed first) which just goes to show that even with all the facts, it can be harder to see the truth. 

[driedfruit]

The sole exception I can think of is in a sitcom, with Leonard and Penny in The Big Bang Theory.  Leonard constantly portrayed as a relatively good guy, but not good enough for Penny.  In dramas and most other sitcoms, it's more like Homer and Marge Simpson (and Marge is often held up as a noble person for "standing by her man"--though there are worse men than Homer Simpson.)

 

LOL. If Penny is too good for Leonard, wouldn't that make Iris also too good for Barry instead of not good enough?

Edited April 20, 2015 by driedfruit

[marketdoctor]

 

...wouldn't that make Iris also too good for Barry instead of not good enough?

 

It would until he became The Flash.  Then it evened out, kind of like getting an extra degree or finding a new use for tilapia without using a Bass-O-Matic...though once she got that reporter job, Iris regained a slight edge.  Thanks for asking!

[FiveByFive]

Gene Roddenberry had no such hang-ups, and had Kirk and Uhura kiss in Plato's Children.  This doesn't bear up to history (Julie Newmar was Catwoman in the episodes that showed first) which just goes to show that even with all the facts, it can be harder to see the truth.

 

Nichelle Nichols / Uhura relayed the story years later that it was actually William Shatner's idea. Her kiss was supposed to be with Spock (green blooded alien) not Captain Kirk (the human, white, star of the show.) Something tells me history would view it differently if it was Spock instead of Kirk as in, history wouldn't view it as a milestone at all. So, good for Bill Shatner for not having it any other way. It's an example of someone other than the writer of the show making a choice that would have never been made by the writer of the show. Whoopie Goldberg did the same years later by changing a line in a Next Generation episode describing a relationship as, "When a man and a woman are in love ..." to "When two people are in love." 

 

That said, women like CP also open the door, because when people say "I'm not..." they want to keep proving it, and eventually the world is a slightly better place.  That's not enough, but it's the right direction.

 

I hope she has a long and successful career beyond The Flash. I really don't know why anyone would feel as if they have a valid reason for complaining about her acting or even Kat Graham's acting on TVD because up until recently on the latter series we never saw the actress get to do anything worthy of judging. It's people like Shonda Rhimes who have catapulted portrayals of African American women (and even women in general) on television to a whole new level. The only time it appears Shonda gets flack as a writer is when Olivia Pope actually does something stereotypical because people are so used to not having to see that on her shows.

 

That being said, it would really help if the writers at least made an attempt to give Iris something to do or some tie in with the story other than being the romantic interest. She works at a newspaper, why can't someone ask her for information on anything? They had a villain of the week have a distant previous relationship with her (of course it was unrequited romance because ... we've covered those reasons) and that was great(ish) because it actually drew her into the story in an active role. Why not do it again? There are smart and intelligent ways to bring her into the story in some small way other than the object of Barry or Eddie's affections. All it takes is for them to try.

[driedfruit]

That being said, it would really help if the writers at least made an attempt to give Iris something to do or some tie in with the story other than being the romantic interest. She works at a newspaper, why can't someone ask her for information on anything? They had a villain of the week have a distant previous relationship with her (of course it was unrequited romance because ... we've covered those reasons) and that was great(ish) because it actually drew her into the story in an active role. Why not do it again? There are smart and intelligent ways to bring her into the story in some small way other than the object of Barry or Eddie's affections. All it takes is for them to try.

 

Love interest isn't necessarily a horrible role for a female character's story lines to be centered around, as she can be well written regardless (see Daredevil's Clair and Vanessa). But for a love interest, Iris interacts very little with Barry or Eddie in ways that enrich their characters, and she isn't even given a POV, which makes her a poor character even within that specific role.

Edited April 21, 2015 by driedfruit

[Lokiberry]

Love interest isn't necessarily a horrible role for a female character's story lines to be centered around, as she can be well written regardless (see Daredevil's Clair and Vanessa). But for a love interest, Iris interacts very little with Barry or Eddie in ways that enrich their characters, and she isn't even given a POV, which makes her a poor character even within that specific role.

Love interest isn't horrible, but it is limiting. It makes female characters subordinate to the males. And, it's a position that can be taken away. Katie Cassidy started out as the "female lead" of Arrow, but with the ascension of Felicity, her role has changed and not for the better. EBR is the effective leading lady of Arrow, no matter what the credits might say, but what real good has that done? Felicity has been used this season to prop up one man and pine for another., She's one of the most popular characters on either show, but where are the stories focusing on her?

 

Twenty years ago, Gillian Anderson was a co-lead on the X-Files. Scully had her own story, her own pov, that was vitally important to the show as a whole. Her position was never dependent on being anybody's potential girlfriend.

 

We've gone backwards.

[driedfruit]

Love interest isn't horrible, but it is limiting. It makes female characters subordinate to the males. And, it's a position that can be taken away. Katie Cassidy started out as the "female lead" of Arrow, but with the ascension of Felicity, her role has changed and not for the better. EBR is the effective leading lady of Arrow, no matter what the credits might say, but what real good has that done? Felicity has been used this season to prop up one man and pine for another., She's one of the most popular characters on either show, but where are the stories focusing on her?

 

No female lead should be reduced to one role, be it love interest or sister or whatever else. Although I didn't think Laurel was back in season one, so this seems more like a season two-three issue with Arrow. 

[wayne67]

And I'm a bit weary of the "it's not happening in this fandom on these boards, so no need to discuss!" comments. It IS happening - so why can't we discuss it? It's also not limited to JUST the overt "n-word" part of the fandom - if it was JUST that, I wouldn't even complain, because THAT kind of racism is easy to fight. It's the more covert forms of racism that many people have trouble understanding and in most cases, many people who have never experienced racism seem to prefer to not acknowledge it or not believe the People of Color who are trying to point it out.

The end result is that people of color become even more marginalized for trying to call attention to the more covert forms of racism - which tend to stem from systemic systems of oppression and - I'm just going to say it - a society that operates under a very white privileged construct. This privilege becomes apparent when a significant portion of screaming white fangirls cannot seem to bring themselves to identify with a black female leading lady (if she's paired with a white male) so they automatically (before the show even airs) support the only white female on the show instead... even though women of color have been rooting for white female leads for like - ever... oh and we only got a black female leading lady in a drama when Olivia Pope showed up - and it took a black woman producer to make THAT happen.

The worst kind of racism is not the kind that you seem to be focusing on. It's the covert kind. Redlining. White flight. "Code black on aisle 3!" <-- yes I experienced that even though at the time I attended a college that cost more than the clerk made in a year. Skipping over job applications with an "ethnic" sounding name. Cultural appropriation. PoC erasure on media. These kinds of things are much harder to pinpoint and pin down - which is why these systems have been going around so long.

It's why Iris doesn't seem to get the benefit of the doubt from some fans.

It's great that it's not happening here, but it's happening - which is why I thought this thread was here? To discuss it?

 

Speaking only for myself as an Australian male, I have no cultural bias towards WOC because our national heritage has other issues entirely.

 

I have issues with the character having no mother, a father who pays more attention to her foster brother than her, no friends that aren't associated with her foster brother and being left in the middle of yet another boring love triangle that plays out like more or less every other love triangle. "She loves them both but she can't make a choice, let's drag this out for as long as possible."

 

As for other forums and articles and such. I don't subscribe to those fandoms so it's hard to comment on those places being racist. I subscribe to this forum, because there are usually well reasons argument for and against certain plots and characters. I find it annoying and limiting that often any criticism of the characterisation is labelled as covert or overt racism against the actress. The problem becomes that the insistence on talking about things that aren't even happening on this boards makes it hard to have a conversation about it because a lot of people won't have seen what you have seen because they don't subscribe to those forums. It's hard to engage with a topic when you don't even know what the other person is referring because there are no links to those articles or even references to ways to find the articles/reviews mentioned.

 

I don't like being lumped into a group of covert/overt racists simply because I liked the character in the first half and after the 'love confession' she's been bogged down in increasingly problematic plot lines. Half the time it feels like I'm not allowed to have an opinion on a fictional character because someone will feel offended because of the actress's skin colour.

 

Most of the people here agree that there has been terrible writing for Iris as a character in the back half of the season.

 

I don't know.

 

That said. Iris bugs me far less than Barry. I loved him in the first half but the second half seemed to turn him dumber so that Team Flash would have something to do and became way too blase about the super secret prison and disclosing his secret identity to everyone (but Iris) for my liking.

 

I'd totally be down for a Barry Cisco slash pairing. They can just have a super villain turn everyone gay for an episode to add a little spice to the show.

Edited April 21, 2015 by wayne67

[FurryFury]

And I'm a bit weary of the "it's not happening in this fandom on these boards, so no need to discuss!" comments. It IS happening - so why can't we discuss it?

 

Nobody would mind if you brought up this question on threads like "Fandom reactions" in Once Upon A Time forum (we're snarking at the general fandom there all the time). It's just annoying when you start answering to people's criticism of Iris with talk of racism. It makes it look like anyone who doesn't like Iris is racist and feels like a personal attack.

 

If Penny is too good for Leonard, wouldn't that make Iris also too good for Barry instead of not good enough?

 

Iris IS too good for Barry, at least at this point.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FurryFury

[phoenics]

Speaking only for myself as an Australian male, I have no cultural bias towards WOC because our national heritage has other issues entirely.

 

I have issues with the character having no mother, a father who pays more attention to her foster brother than her, no friends that aren't associated with her foster brother and being left in the middle of yet another boring love triangle that plays out like more or less every other love triangle. "She loves them both but she can't make a choice, let's drag this out for as long as possible."

 

As for other forums and articles and such. I don't subscribe to those fandoms so it's hard to comment on those places being racist. I subscribe to this forum, because there are usually well reasons argument for and against certain plots and characters. I find it annoying and limiting that often any criticism of the characterisation is labelled as covert or overt racism against the actress. The problem becomes that the insistence on talking about things that aren't even happening on this boards makes it hard to have a conversation about it because a lot of people won't have seen what you have seen because they don't subscribe to those forums. It's hard to engage with a topic when you don't even know what the other person is referring because there are no links to those articles or even references to ways to find the articles/reviews mentioned.

 

I don't like being lumped into a group of covert/overt racists simply because I liked the character in the first half and after the 'love confession' she's been bogged down in increasingly problematic plot lines. Half the time it feels like I'm not allowed to have an opinion on a fictional character because someone will feel offended because of the actress's skin colour.

 

Most of the people here agree that there has been terrible writing for Iris as a character in the back half of the season.

 

I don't know.

 

That said. Iris bugs me far less than Barry. I loved him in the first half but the second half seemed to turn him dumber so that Team Flash would have something to do and became way too blase about the super secret prison and disclosing his secret identity to everyone (but Iris) for my liking.

 

I'd totally be down for a Barry Cisco slash pairing. They can just have a super villain turn everyone gay for an episode to add a little spice to the show.

I think the issue is that clearly it's the writing causing these issues - but Iris/CP gets the irrational hatred instead of the writers.

[phoenics]

Nobody would mind if you brought up this question on threads like "Fandom reactions" in Once Upon A Time forum (we're snarking at the general fandom there all the time). It's just annoying when you start answering to people's criticism of Iris with talk of racism. It makes it look like anyone who doesn't like Iris is racist and feels like a personal attack.

That's not what has been happening. I think we as a whole here have been pretty fair in saying the racism isn't happening here (at least from what we can see in an overt sense) - but it IS happening - but whenever ANY of us comment on that, we're told to essentially shut up because some don't see it here specifically.

I've seen comments here on this board that "I didn't like Iris from jump" that makes some of us go - um, why not? Why did you decide from the beginning that you didn't like Iris? You may just overlook comments like that - but some of us hear them and worry. We worry because Hollywood is really fickle when it comes to women of color - see Twisted as an example. See what nearly happened on Sleepy Hollow. For many of us - trust is a tenuous thing.

So sorry that we are bringing up what we're living when we see patterns that we recognize in our own daily lives.

Additionally, some things have happened in this forum that were at least sexist - in terms of how Barry vs Iris were perceived... but at least here, there is some balance in that people tend to respond to those comments by pointing out the disparity. That's not true everywhere.

That's all many of us are doing as well - while at the same time acknowledging the fact that not everyone is racist. That should be a foregone conclusion, btw.

I think my main issue for much of this is that the ire seems directed only at Iris/CP while letting the writers off the hook. That's what I've noted before - if we dragged the writers instead of the "just kill her off!" comments I've seen even here, then okay.

This forum is definitely better than others - but even here, people tend to take the "If I don't see it, it's not happening" stance, which is particularly depressing for people of color who do see it.

[Sakura12]

The love interest role is the trickiest role to write it seems. They have to have their POV and their own storyline but not one too far away from the main plot. Daredevil managed it because both women were involved in the main plot Claire with the secret and Karen with her investigating the main villain. 

 

Arrow issues started with the first season, Laurel mostly only interacted with Oliver and didn't know the secret so it felt like she was on her own show that not many people were interested in watching and could be removed without it changing the storyline. It got worse in the second season when she didn't appear in a few episodes and not many people noticed. Now she's being shoved front and center without doing much to earn her place with the team. Cassidy just can't bring the the warmth that's needed to make her character someone to root for. When she did talk to the other characters she was cold and indifferent to them. Adding that to bringing in a fully trained Black Canary with almost all the traits of comic BC, played by an actress that did bring warmth and vulnerability to the character did not help at all. That huge fail falls on the writers and the actress.

 

The Flash started out okay with Iris, she did talk to more characters than just Barry. Then they had everyone finding out the secret but her and are trying to play a stupid game of "Don't tell Iris". That's what is annoying about that storyline. Everyone is lying to her for no reason and it's hurting her characterization because there is nothing she can do about that. She gets pushed out of her own house and relationship with her father because they want to have a team meeting. That's on the writing not the actress. 

[BPOX]

I see a lot of discussions of misogyny in connection to the writing of Iris and how the men treat her, and I follow most of those complaints. They tend to be specific, like Joe stopped 3 career choices, they are denying her her agency, Joe and Eddie talk as if either her father or her husband is in charge. I also see things I tend to view as potentially misogynistic complaints, such as possible exploitation or slut shaming with the clothing choices, concerns that she comes across as a shew if she is angry at Barry or Eddie too long. The idea being that men are allowed to get angry in our culture and it is a sign of strength, on the converse women are allowed sadness but any anger is considered irrational.

 

I like Iris a lot, but sadly, I know that probably doesn't exempt me from unconscious racist thinking at times. At the risk of sounding like the tone police, I'd appreciate more specifics on how the racial presentation is problematic. I suspect a lot of the concerns I see as misogynistic might also be viewed from a racial expectation angle as well.

[FurryFury]

I've seen comments here on this board that "I didn't like Iris from jump" that makes some of us go - um, why not? Why did you decide from the beginning that you didn't like Iris? You may just overlook comments like that - but some of us hear them and worry.

 

It's pretty common for me to not like some characters from the get-go. It didn't happen with Iris (I was and still am neutral about her, although I can't stand her romance with Barry), but it did happen with Laurel, for instance. The reasons, for me, are usually writing and acting. There are certain tropes that I'm really not fond of. "Neutral female" love interest is, by the way, one of them - a character, usually female, whose only purpose in the story is to be the hero's loved one and motivate him. Such a thankless role which is really hard to like. In fact, the reason I still don't hate Iris is probably CP's doing, she's just so charming. I never really thought about her race, in general, race is not a big deal for me. I suppose, like with wayne67, it's my heritage, I'm not from the US, so while I do know US history in this regard, I tend to view these issues from the outside, which gives me a different perspective.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FurryFury

[phoenics]

I like Iris a lot, but sadly, I know that probably doesn't exempt me from unconscious racist thinking at times. At the risk of sounding like the tone police, I'd appreciate more specifics on how the racial presentation is problematic. I suspect a lot of the concerns I see as misogynistic might also be viewed from a racial expectation angle as well.

This is a really fair question.

The answer is that it's very complicated. On the one hand, the writers are faced with an interesting conundrum that all writers are faced with when penning a leading AA or PoC character - especially a woman. There are a minefield of tropes they try to avoid. The main dilemma is that they are usually faced with 1) presenting the character as a kick ass woman which would pacify most white feminists (bear with me, I have a point there) with flaws, but who many times ends up being nearly asexual (see Abbie on Sleepy Hollow) and 2) presenting the character to be the nicest nice person who ever niced in order to try to sidestep the inevitable hatred the character will receive just for being black (see Gwen - whom I loved - on Merlin).

For point #1 because there are so FEW depictions of black or woman of color characters in a leading role to begin with, writers run the risk of their characterizations being seen as representative of all women from that group. This is why even Shonda got a bit of blowback with Olivia Pope at first - because she was definitely flawed. She overcame those criticisms because OP was so wonderfully layered. She was powerful and kick ass, but she was also soft and feminine, a depiction that black women rarely see of themselves in media. And in a less capable writer's hands, OP would not be the character we see. One example is Bonnie on TVD. For many years, she was the sassy sidekick who had no agency and only existed to service a white storyline. Others have commented on this above already.

For point #2, writers try another track, which is to try to make the character so completely vanilla and sweet in a pre-emptive strike to try to deflate the racist hate the character will get. The thing is, for many black women, who are used to seeing themselves represented on tv as ABWs, sassy sidekicks, or nearly asexual (because they are married to their jobs for example), seeing a soft, feminine black character who takes care of house and home is actually a HUGE WIN for our representation. Too often black women get told their perpetual single status (of professional women) is their fault because they are too masculine or too aggressive - so seeing a soft black woman held up as the object of affection is a big deal. Because it rarely ever happens.

So - I say all of this to say that basically when a black woman is cast as a leading lady and a love interest (that's a huge win, btw), we're already in a meta situation because the writers HAVE to consider how they will approach the character in order to sidestep all of the racist criticism the character will get (some overt and some covert). In the case of the Flash writers, I think they went with option #2 - but unfortunately they haven't given Iris enough agency (or even a PoV) on her own to support taking the #2 direction. I think they might have done better going the kick ass route - but then the problem might be that they'd inadvertently land her in the "asexual" category.

Also - originally on Arrow, Felicity was NOT a part of the main cast. The only woman on the show that was unrelated to the leading man was Laurel. That's it. The other two women were related to him, thus they couldn't be romantic competition. Meaning, they didn't cast Katie Cassidy and then cast another actress as a "backup" to keep/hold interest "just in case".

I do not believe that was the case on The Flash. They cast a black actress (on purpose) to play Iris, but then cast a white actress to play a character as well and I DO believe some part of that was a "just in case" to hold interest in the show in case the "black girl" couldn't hold it down. The result of that meant that several parts of Iris' characterization have gone to other white women on the show (Felicity and Caitlin). Iris - in the comics, works with Barry the way Caitlin and Cisco do now (just not with the Flash part yet). Because Team Flash does that, Iris is left partially without a storyline. It's hard to say it's due to the writers fear that the "black girl couldn't hold it down" or to their infatuation with the "Team Flash/Arrow" concept - but it's a topic worth talking about.

One specific instance that I can give you about different reactions to black female/white male pairings is the oft-heard, "There aren't enough platonic pairings on tv!!!! Why can't they just be friendssss!!!!" Nothing wrong with that - but typically I hear that mostly when it's a black woman character and a white male character - you might hear it for the white/white pairings, but not nearly as much. Why THAT couple? And even if the writers acquiesced to that request, well now you've helped to contribute to the "asexual" black woman trope because you've ignored racial/sexual intersectionality in your critique and assumed that your view of "feminist progress" looks the same to you as it does to women of color. It doesn't.

[Sakura12]

Since we are having a similar discussion the iZombie board, where it involves two male POC's. As an American Asian female I'm all for POC actors/actresses and women getting more work. However for me I go with "Is this character well written and/or acted" or "Is this character someone I'm interested in learning more about". They could have blue and I'd still ask those questions. Do I wish they could go with more color blind and gender bending casting, yes. I love that Elementary has an Asian female playing Watson and a woman playing Moriarty. 

 

I do see people blasting the writers for the treatment of Iris on the Flash. I would hope the writers even without the ratings dive that Sleepy Hollow took are working on correcting that. I also think in the comic book world, it's been more male dominated for years, or thought to be more male dominated by the males that wrote the comics. Yes, there were female heroes, but look it how they were dressed compare to their male counterparts. I'm happy we are moving away from that but I still think it will be years before women will be treated as equals in the comic book world. 

 

If we look at Guardians of Galaxy that's the first time a woman has been credited as a main writer in a comic book movie. I met her right when she found out her script had been picked up and know that there was more to that story. She wrote the original script by herself, then they fired her to bring on James Gunn, then they brought her back on because her script was better but then she got the co-writing credit because they wanted him to contribute to the script. She's been working on Black Widow screen play which they won't pick up. She's working on Captain Marvel now, hopefully it will see the light of day. 

[FurryFury]

I really didn't like GotG, but I do think that a female writer for a successful comic book movie is a huge win. Hope to see more of them on TV, too. Of course there are male writers who do female characters justice and female writers who do not, but still, I feel like that the gender (and also cultural/racial background) of writers matters a lot, and it's not often appreciated.

 

They cast a black actress (on purpose) to play Iris, but then cast a white actress to play a character as well and I DO believe some part of that was a "just in case" to hold interest in the show in case the "black girl" couldn't hold it down.

 

I'm not convinced Iris race has anything to do with it. The situation with Laurel and Olicity is probably the reason for it, TBH, and the fact that Caitlyn whose description was originally very different from Felicity suddenly during the course of the show morphed into Felicity clone, is evidence for it. They've just lucked onto something successful and want to copy it. Notice how they've first introduced a new superhero on Arrow as Felicity's potential LI (Barry) and then done the same with Atom/Ray Palmer. I think this is the same situation, just self-plagiarizing in order to get ratings. They weren't sure Iris would be popular so just in case they've created an alternate LI. Of course, what they should have done is to write Iris better and give her a real meaty plotline instead of dating Eddie and being perpetually clueless, but apparently this is too hard.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FurryFury

[phoenics]

I really didn't like GotG, but I do think that a female writer for a successful comic book movie is a huge win. Hope to see more of them on TV, too. Of course there are male writers who do female characters justice and female writers who do not, but still, I feel like that the gender (and also cultural/racial background) of writers matters a lot, and it's not often appreciated.

 

I'm not convinced Iris race has anything to do with it. The situation with Laurel and Olicity is probably the reason for it, TBH, and the fact that Caitlyn whose description was originally very different from Felicity suddenly during the course of the show morphed into Felicity clone, is evidence for it. They've just lucked onto something successful and want to copy it. Notice how they've first introduced a new superhero on Arrow as Felicity's potential LI (Barry) and then done the same with Atom/Ray Palmer. I think this is the same situation, just self-plagiarizing in order to get ratings. They weren't sure Iris would be popular so just in case they've created an alternate LI. Of course, what they should have done is to write Iris better and give her a real meaty plotline instead of dating Eddie and being perpetually clueless, but apparently this is too hard.

I couldn't disagree more that Caitlyn is ANYTHING like Felicity - they seem to want to force that comparison, but I don't believe it's there. I think Iris/Felicity are more alike in personality than Caitlin and Felicity.

I wish you had quoted my whole post though - I did mention that it was hard to tell if that was only a racial issue, not a racial issue, or because of the writer infatuation with the "Team Arrow/Flash" concept. Then I talked about how the Caitlyn and Cisco characters actually hijacked some of Iris' narrative based on her role in the comics.

[FurryFury]

Then I talked about how the Caitlyn and Cisco characters actually hijacked some of Iris' narrative based on her role in the comics.

 

I can't really comment about that because I've never read the comics and don't really care. And even then, I love the "team" shows more than hero-focused.

 

I couldn't disagree more that Caitlyn is ANYTHING like Felicity - they seem to want to force that comparison, but I don't believe it's there.

 

Which is exactly what I was talking about! Caitlyn, originally, by her description, should be very different. But in the show, they are trying to give her all the cutesy Felicity mannerisms, so the end result is very inconsistent.

 

I did mention that it was hard to tell if that was only a racial issue, not a racial issue, or because of the writer infatuation with the "Team Arrow/Flash" concept.

 

Oh, OK. Anyway, I really don't think race is the key here, or even an issue. I do understand that there are shows with problematic depiction of PoCs (The Vampire Diaries is a good example, and also Once Upon A Time). I just don't think Flash/Arrow are one of them. They have lots of problems with women, though, and with the general quality of writing.

Edited April 21, 2015 by FurryFury

[Chicago Redshirt]

For me at least, it is hard to separate out how much of the issues with Iris are due to race, gender, comic book tropes, one-track-minded writing, or some combination of those and other factors.

 

There are several things that in my mind are laudable about Iris's portrayal, including:

 

Iris herself is shown to be funny, smart and resourceful;

 

Iris has managed to subvert the damsel-in-distress trope on at least a couple occasions (doing the finishing move on Girder and taking out Clock King);

 

Iris is shown as a subject of romantic desire from both Barry and Eddie;

 

Iris avoids a lot of stereotypical portrayals of black women, such as Angry Black Woman, sassy sidekick to white woman, asexual or hypersexual.

 

At the same time, there are the issues people have talked about before inside the show (frequent lack of agency, frequent lack of involvement in the main storyline, paternalism) and outside the show (frequently having CP omitted from promos, interviews, etc.).

 

Judging from what many of these same writers have done with Laurel in Arrow, where the same issues have arisen, I'd venture to say it's not race that is the culprit, as Lauren/KC are both white.