Lightning Rods: Gender, Race, Homosexuality and Other Sensitive Topics

[phoenics]

On 2/13/2018 at 12:56 PM, Katsullivan said:

I'm agreeing with you. I'm agreeing with you that there are many ways of telling a story - in a fantasy world, mind you - than the binary option of "be offensive" OR "not hire PoCs." And I'm rolling my eyes metaphorically at the whole discussion because in my experience, the insistence of this Either/Or/No 3rd Option stance is just a conscious or subconscious desire to uphold white supremacy at all costs. 

Ah - thank you!  Agreed.  It's exhausting.

I was thinking earlier how much more productive and acclaimed I and other PoC (especially my black skinfolk) could be if we didn't have such an intense cognitive load from discussions like these and from defending against microaggressions, ignoring microaggressions and altering our behavior in order to make non-black people more comfortable and soothing their feelings and discomfort about race.

I'd probably have a Nobel Peace Prize.

[phoenics]

23 hours ago, johntfs said:

The point for me is that the rightness of Mina's cause blinded her to the wrongness of her methods.  Mina is absolutely right that Native artifacts should be restored to their rightful places, but she's absolutely wrong to murder other human beings to do that.  Becky got redemption because she wanted it.  She recognized that what she was doing was wrong and wanted to do things differently.

For my part, Mina is more interesting as she's been written - as a person doing the right things in very much the wrong way.  I wouldn't want to see her turned into the poor, sad little Indian girl just trying to restore her peoples' artifacts when the mean ol' Flash came along and stopped her.  That story turns Mina into a powerless victim and she works better as a villain.  I recall commenting on the Elementary board that I liked seeing a PoC as a master criminal.  I also like seeing another PoC (Mina) who has a genuine cultural grievance also choose to do evil in the course of addressing that grievance.

Mina is actually an anti-hero in the comics - she's not really a villain.  Tell me - explain to me why the Native American fighting to restore her family's heritage gets turned completely into a villain here, while the Becky gets to be redeemed.  And she was 100% a villain in canon.

I do agree that Mina is more interesting as an anti-hero, but I wish they hadn't made her a murderer - it was a cheap way to ignore how horrible it was for people to be stealing her heritage and appropriating it in such disrespectful ways.  Basically it was the writers' way of coping out on a storyline that exposed DEEP white supremacy and racism by basically turning Mina into the villain.

This stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum and you "explaining" the storyline to me (I understand what's happening perfectly well) doesn't erase that the writers chose this particular path to go down.  They could have gone down a different path where Mina pulled back and wanted to stop hurting people.  Making it Becky who feels that way just furthers this narrative that white women can't really be evil - etc etc...

Allison Williams talks about this with respect to her role in Get Out.  She says people (only white people) come up to her constantly and ask her if her character was under mind control or duped or didn't know what she was doing.  She tells them, no, Allison was truly evil and has been doing this for years and has a trophy wall for God's sake.  But people are so used to the white female character ultimately being good that they couldn't accept what she'd done.

Like I said - this stuff does NOT happen in a vacuum and portrayals on tv and movies impact how we view one another (unfortunately).  

I'm gonna take a break from this thread - it's too triggering right now.

[johntfs]

On 2/14/2018 at 6:35 PM, phoenics said:

I do agree that Mina is more interesting as an anti-hero, but I wish they hadn't made her a murderer - it was a cheap way to ignore how horrible it was for people to be stealing her heritage and appropriating it in such disrespectful ways.  Basically it was the writers' way of coping out on a storyline that exposed DEEP white supremacy and racism by basically turning Mina into the villain.

They kind of had to make Mina a killer because that was the only way they could make her a villain while still servicing Barry's setup.  Mina was reclaiming an artifact to return to her people.  She wasn't planning to sell it or use some weird magic powers it had to take over the world.  So her goal is basically unselfish in nature.  So the only way to make a person like that into a villain is via the means she uses.  So her means has to include killing people.  Because if she's just stealing the stuff and returning it, Barry can't really send her to jail and keep his "nice guy hero" cred.  If all Mina's doing is stealing the artifacts to return them, then the real villain has to be who she's stealing from and at the episode's end she gets some BS sentence of community service teaching people about Native culture at a museum and also becomes a contact for Team Flash when some weird mystical shit happens because Native Americans are Magic.

Which is a decent enough story, but not the one they wanted to tell.  They wanted Mina in jail with the others for the jailbreak/power-snatch episode.  As for redemption, between Becky and Mina, the one more likely to back off or change her mind was Becky.  Becky just felt entitled due to her previously shitty luck, while Mina was very much committed to her cause.  It's why she was willing to kill people in the first place.

[phoenics]

On 2/16/2018 at 2:54 AM, johntfs said:

They kind of had to make Mina a killer because that was the only way they could make her a villain while still servicing Barry's setup.  Mina was reclaiming an artifact to return to her people.  She wasn't planning to sell it or use some weird magic powers it had to take over the world.  So her goal is basically unselfish in nature.  So the only way to make a person like that into a villain is via the means she uses.  So her means has to include killing people.  Because if she's just stealing the stuff and returning it, Barry can't really send her to jail and keep his "nice guy hero" cred.  If all Mina's doing is stealing the artifacts to return them, then the real villain has to be who she's stealing from and at the episode's end she gets some BS sentence of community service teaching people about Native culture at a museum and also becomes a contact for Team Flash when some weird mystical shit happens because Native Americans are Magic.

Which is a decent enough story, but not the one they wanted to tell.  They wanted Mina in jail with the others for the jailbreak/power-snatch episode.  As for redemption, between Becky and Mina, the one more likely to back off or change her mind was Becky.  Becky just felt entitled due to her previously shitty luck, while Mina was very much committed to her cause.  It's why she was willing to kill people in the first place.

This is more binary thinking that ALWAYS ends with a PoC character marginalized, othered, villainized, etc..  Barry was in jail but he was innocent.  Becky for God's sake never killed anyone but she still ended up in jail because she still stole.  Mina could have been seen as righteous for her cause, but still incarcerated.  They still could have explored all of this - even set Mina up to accidentally kill someone and having to go to prison for that - but deeply remorseful that her deeds hurt someone.  Honestly they didn't HAVE to have Mina kill anyone - she could have just taken the artifacts and still had to go to prison because it was a crime still - and Barry could have been pissed off and angry about it and this show could ACTUALLY have had a real conversation about the reality of that.

Instead they made her a murderer without remorse and a villain.  

And the white girl still gets the redemptive storyline.  Miss me with the excuses.    

[johntfs]

11 hours ago, phoenics said:

This is more binary thinking that ALWAYS ends with a PoC character marginalized, othered, villainized, etc..  Barry was in jail but he was innocent.  Becky for God's sake never killed anyone but she still ended up in jail because she still stole.  Mina could have been seen as righteous for her cause, but still incarcerated.  They still could have explored all of this - even set Mina up to accidentally kill someone and having to go to prison for that - but deeply remorseful that her deeds hurt someone.  Honestly they didn't HAVE to have Mina kill anyone - she could have just taken the artifacts and still had to go to prison because it was a crime still - and Barry could have been pissed off and angry about it and this show could ACTUALLY have had a real conversation about the reality of that.

Instead they made her a murderer without remorse and a villain.  

And the white girl still gets the redemptive storyline.  Miss me with the excuses.    

You're right.  They could have gone that way with Mina, made Becky decide that she really was selfish and liked the luck no matter who it hurt and had Mina get the redemption.  Although, lets recall how that story ends.  Mina would get redemption and then be another PoC who gets turned into a sock puppet for DeVoe to inhabit.  Which is okay with me because it means that Chelsea Kurtz, a real Native American actress, gets more scenes and the paycheck that goes with them.  However it also continues and extends the story elements of a White Male appropriating the literal flesh of a Person of Color.  Becky didn't get the redemption because she was the white girl.  She got it so we'd start to sympathize with her and be all the more shocked and saddened when DeVoe took her over - much the same way we were supposed to feel when he did it to Dominic.

[phoenics]

Which brings us full circle back around to why did they do the problematic white man takes over anyone's body storyline in the first place when it wasn't necessary.  They could have found more use for Dominic, and by extension Mina.

That's been my entire point.  Thanks for essentially proving it.

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

Which brings us full circle back around to why did they do the problematic white man takes over anyone's body storyline in the first place when it wasn't necessary.  They could have found more use for Dominic, and by extension Mina.

That's been my entire point.  Thanks for essentially proving it.

Well, I guess they could have done yet another story about Barry being worried that despite the fact that he's the fastest man alive, he's going up against somebody who might be even faster.  Again.  You're right.  White people rules the world.  Maybe not overtly, but they're the most powerful voting/wealth bloc in the most powerful country in the world.  Look at the Fortune 500, political positions, etc and many/most of them are filled by White people - generally White men.  When people run/rule something, they generally set things up so that that something works in a way that's comfortable/effective for them without caring too much how it works for people who aren't them.  Of course humans are humans.  Any racial or ethnic group in that position would act the same way.  I recall an older John Travolta movie, White Man's Burden that made that same point.

Along with the basic idea of "us first other considerations second" you have the basic story of The Thinker.  Whatever the "Enlightenment" is, it's supposed to be a Good Thing, according to DeVoe.  It's supposed to "save the world."  Now, that could easily be self-serving bullshit and often has been.  Hitler wanted to "save the world" from Jewish people.  Still, let's take it as a given for the moment.  The Enlightenment will be a Good Thing.  If a villain wants to do a good thing (as witness Mina) the only way to keep him or her as a villain is to have them use Evil actions to accomplish that Good Thing.  Murdering people and taking over their bodies is a pretty Evil thing to do.

[Katsullivan]

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Edited March 7, 2018 by Katsullivan

[Katsullivan]

18 hours ago, doram said:

@Katsullivan I guess you didn't watch the stand-up to the end, right? Because Chris Rock mocking black women for the lulz is legendary. 

Wait, what? It was a gifset on tumblr. Chris Rock mocks black women? I heard about his "Good Hair" documentary but I thought that was mostly satire, after all he was inspired to do it because of a conversation he overheard his daughter having with a friend. 

[Trini]

So Joe's 2 lines to Cop #3 in tonight's episode made me think - 'wow, when was the last time Joe spoke to another Black man?' I can't remember if he's ever said anything to Diggle.

[Katsullivan]

@doram I googled it, and I see what you mean. Watch me lose all respect for him. What an a--hole. Black men like him make me sick. Consider that post deleted from the multiverse.

[Trini]

Some of Candice's comments related to race and gender from her interview with Ebony Magazine:

Quote

Candice, how’s it being a part of the CW network and their initiatives on diversity?

This pioneering role that I have got to do, I feel like my community, the black community, doesn’t really know about me and I also feel like we haven’t been able to reach them in a correct way, which is unfortunate.

We have so many diverse actors and so many interesting things happening on the network, and I just wanted to make sure we have more diverse outlets being involved to know what we are doing.

My character is traditionally white in the comic book and I feel like our community doesn’t know that. There’s a bunch of diverse comic book fans who may not even know about our show, or that they did some race bending, for the time, that was 2014, that was before we started seeing a lot more African American women pop into comic books and TV shows.

I feel like CW was at the forefront of trying to change that dynamic.

Quote

You being a black woman in this space especially in The Flash Universe, how does that feel for you to be a  black female superhero especially during this time with films like Black Panther.

It felt amazing. I had just seen black panther for the second time and for me to be able to strap on some leather and be a hero in the CW world it’s really cool, really important.

I know what it means for black women to see ourselves in those kinds of roles where we feel empowered and can be the heroes of our own stories.

Quote

Iris was never a black character in the comics, so what has that been like in representing her?

We changed the race of Iris for the show and I think it had a huge impact. I think it was successful, I think you see that happening a lot more on film and TV shows.

I think at the beginning people were hesitant, they were like we want to see Iris like in the comics. I think over the time, season after season, me showing that Iris is so much more than her skin color. Iris is about her heart and her character, so for me, it was really important to create a character that people could love regardless of what she looks like.

Quote

It’s Women’s History Month! So what did it feel like to have Iris be the superhero on The Flash?

I understand the importance of being a black woman. It’s so important for young girls of color, young girls of any color to see diverse women as the heroes of their own story.

It’s been a long time coming and we’ve seen that in little ways with Iris and Caitlin (Danielle Panabaker) and the other female characters on the show kind of saving the day without any powers, but there is something cool about going to movies and seeing a strong badass female superhero. It gives young girls something to aspire to.

I walked out of Wonder Woman with Caty Lotz (Black Canary) on Legends of Tomorrow [feeling that] ‘this is what white men must feel like every day’ because you got Batman and Superman. You know it’s important for young women to walk out of the movie theater, walk out of watching these tv shows and just feel strong and empowered. I hope [this episode] does that for someone watching.

Quote

You appeared on two episodes of another superhero show (Heroes) in 2009. What’s the difference between working on that show and having this job on The Flash?

I wasn’t on Heroes very long to get to sink my teeth into anything [The Flash] is different, this is bigger. I feel like my character has a bigger purpose.

Heroes was great, but I was like the sorority sister, the friend. So often, we as black women, we are cast as the best friend, we are rarely the leading lady. So, for me being on The Flash it’s been so important for me to be the leading lady, to be the woman that is desired by the superhero, to be the hero herself. This is much different.

[Katsullivan]

On 12/03/2018 at 4:50 PM, doram said:

The vicious cycle of US society/media in gouging its audience on black pain, black suffering and black mutilation to the point that the audience is de-sensitised to it. And it's far easier for some parents to explain a black woman getting stabbed to death than to explain a black woman getting pleasure, especially when the killer and the lover are the same white male "hero". It feeds into the propaganda that interracial relationships are inherently perverted and destructive.

Whelp.

@Trini Thanks for posting the highlights of the interview. Candice always sounds so poised and intelligent. I didn't know she was in Heroes!

[Starry]

From the Run, Iris, Run episode thread...

 

21 hours ago, Starry said:

I have some thoughts about Kreisberg, his favoritism and the way he seemed to regard the women characters but maybe I’ll post about it in another thread…

Despite Iris being the leading lady, in my opinion the writing had a tendency to favor Caitlin. After the first half of s1, Caitlin started getting more screen time all the way through the end of s2 and as a member of Team Flash, she was a part of all the major plot reveals. In the meantime, Iris was being lied to, left without a storyline after Mason’s death and dealing with the return of her mother off screen. And while I don’t believe Caitlin is narratively more useful than Iris she’s always had a POV over whatever was happening in her life at the moment. She also always had characters who cared about her. Getting a POV from Iris was like pulling teeth. Fans had to wait for specific episodes to hear her voice her thoughts about Barry, Eddie, her mother…All of this was happening during the Kreisberg era.

As far as I know, Kreisberg is also the only producer that ever acknowledged the Snowbarry ship in interviews. He used to tell fans of that pairing that they’d get their moments, that they should wait for the goodness that was episode x, etc. And while Snowbarry was just another way to give Caitlin and DP relevance, when the show had its major Snowbarry “moments” Caitlin was always put in “awkward” gross situations, like drunkenly telling Barry he could take a peek at her breasts for being a hero and being sexually assaulted by a villain wearing Barry’s face.

Then there’s Patty Spivot, marketed as “Barry’s Felicity” and written as a male fantasy. She was the "adorkable" hot blonde who was non-threatening and more interested in the hero than he was in her. She was persistent and a “cool girlfriend” and so thirsty for Barry. Even when Patty got fed up with Barry’s lies and decided to pursue her CSI dream, that lasted one hot second before she literally begged him to take her back.

And there’s the way the mothers are treated compared to the fathers. Nora Allen makes appearances to get stabbed. Francine West was demonized and then killed off. Wells’ wife is dead, on every Earth apparently. Caitlin’s mom wasn’t written as a very sympathetic character and disappeared after one episode.

As for the women’s careers, Patty was willing to throw hers away to stay with Barry, I don’t know if Caitlin even has a job (who is paying the STAR Labs people? Barry? STAR Labs hasn’t been an operating facility since the PA explosion…), Iris journalism arc has always been an issue and when Kreisberg made her the team leader it took fifteen episodes before we were told  what happened to her job at CCPN. Leaving Iris’ job situation undefined put the character, who has always been the victim of fandom double standards, in a though spot because while her fans were willing to give the writers the benefit of the doubt and assume she was still working off screen her detractors used it as another reason to shade and demean her.

Now I’m not saying Kreisberg was the only person responsible for The Flash poor treatment of the female characters but I believe the show was heavily influenced by his “vision”.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Starry

[Starry]

I'm not sure I would say that Barry broke up with Iris to punish her. IMO that happened because he made the decision to see her as "someone he had to save", which was exactly what Iris didn't want. What Barry saw in the future was driving the major milestones in their relationship, Iris called him out on it and Barry basically agreed with her when he decided to dump her. I think Barry needing a break to focus on the task at hand, Savitar, wouldn't be that bad if 1) the Duet episode didn't start with him doing nothing and moping on Cisco's couch like he was the one who got dumped and 2) he didn't leave Iris alone and scared in their apartment. I agree that all the major relationship milestones were driven by Barry, which was not good.

1 hour ago, doram said:

As long as he was the showrunner, the baton stopped at him in terms of the creative decision on this show. He created the storylines and/or approved storylines pitched by the junior writers. He favoured writers who shared his vision, and ignored/dismissed writers who did. There were incidents were scripts by guest writers were edited to downplay Westallen and I see his shadow clearly in those things. He played favourites with characters - 100% agree that Caitlin has, until recently, been given more focus as the female lead than Iris, and even though I didn't know that he actually promoted Snowbarry, I feel so vindicated by this because it's something I've always said: There is no way Danielle Panabacker would have been promoting Snowbarry without the backing of her bosses. And my theory that this ship would have eventually sailed, one way or the other, is basically confirmed by this. 

I just remembered that the person who wrote The Wrath of Savitar with Kreisberg hates Iris. He favorited a tweet calling her annoying or something. Luckily, this writer is not with the show anymore but it's no surprise that a person who dislikes Iris wrote an episode which didn't put her in the best light (Iris taking off her engagement ring while Barry is laying broken on his hospital bed was quite cold IMO). In the meanwhile, Caitlin is not being roasted for taking a piece of the Philosopher's Stone and sabotaging Barry's mission to save Iris. 

I wonder why Snowbarry never happened? The Snowbarry moments were clearly planned and not a result of accidental chemistry. Kreisberg was with the show for 3+ seasons, seemed to like DP and the ship so I don't get why Barry was never written to be even mildly interested in Caitlin. I say this as someone who was waiting for it to happen, even as a mid-game pairing but I was actually surprised that despite the one-sided baiting the ship went nowhere (not that I'm complaining...). It can't be because they were married to the idea of Westallen because they wasted no time forgetting about Westallen in s2 when Patty was the main LI.

[Katsullivan]

On 20/03/2018 at 1:34 PM, Starry said:

I just remembered that the person who wrote The Wrath of Savitar with Kreisberg hates Iris. He favorited a tweet calling her annoying or something. Luckily, this writer is not with the show anymore but it's no surprise that a person who dislikes Iris wrote an episode which didn't put her in the best light (Iris taking off her engagement ring while Barry is laying broken on his hospital bed was quite cold IMO). In the meanwhile, Caitlin is not being roasted for taking a piece of the Philosopher's Stone and sabotaging Barry's mission to save Iris. 

These things were self-evidence even without the bts information. Whoever wrote that episode clearly hated Candice/Iris. There's no other way of reading that. Julian gets to stand by Barry's side and hold his hand while he was agonising from Savitar's wound --- but Iris stands by the foot of the bed like if she doesn't belong there? Joe gets over his grief for losing Wally and is able to stand by Barry's head, holding him but Barry's fiancee shows as much concern for him as Jessie Quick? And who is the person who remained at Barry's bedside at the end? Caitlin Nightingale.

The next episode is the one where he dumped Iris, and we see a shot of Caitlin in the Speed Force holding a baby that is staged and edited to look like she's holding Barry's and hers child, with Barry even asking, "is that...?" and never finishing the question.

On 20/03/2018 at 1:34 PM, Starry said:

The Snowbarry moments were clearly planned and not a result of accidental chemistry.

Agreed, like the above scene I just described. An example of accidental chemistry was when Damon/Ian Salvatore was supposed to be menacing Bonnie in season 1 and it ended up looking like he was propositioning her. When the show has a scene where Team Flash meet Barry, disoriented from the Speedforce and the first reaction shot after Barry's face is Caitlin's? That's not "accidental" chemistry. That's editing and staging to manufacture chemistry. 

On 20/03/2018 at 1:34 PM, Starry said:

I wonder why Snowbarry never happened? The Snowbarry moments were clearly planned and not a result of accidental chemistry. Kreisberg was with the show for 3+ seasons, seemed to like DP and the ship so I don't get why Barry was never written to be even mildly interested in Caitlin. I say this as someone who was waiting for it to happen, even as a mid-game pairing but I was actually surprised that despite the one-sided baiting the ship went nowhere (not that I'm complaining...). It can't be because they were married to the idea of Westallen because they wasted no time forgetting about Westallen in s2 when Patty was the main LI.

 

I'd like to think that Berlanti was adamant that the ship never happened, but if he was, DP would never have been promoting it the way she did. I think it's more likely that the mandate was "Westallen First ... Then We'll See". I remember DP once gave an interview in season 3 where she said to Snowbarry fans that, "it's Westallen's time, so let their fans have that" which... *insert snake gif*  AK and DP might have been banking on making Snowbarry endgame so they tried to make Westallen the Clana/Lauriver to endgame Clois/Olicity for Snowbarry.

One thing I know for a fact is that AK and his team clearly hated writing Westallen, and it shows. I think the good Westallen moments we got were despite not because of his influence, and might even have had some executive meddling involved.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Katsullivan

[Katsullivan]

6 hours ago, Starry said:

I'm not sure I would say that Barry broke up with Iris to punish her. 

I don't think you can divorce the writing for that from this:

6 hours ago, Starry said:

it's no surprise that a person who dislikes Iris wrote an episode which didn't put her in the best light (Iris taking off her engagement ring while Barry is laying broken on his hospital bed was quite cold IMO). In the meanwhile, Caitlin is not being roasted for taking a piece of the Philosopher's Stone and sabotaging Barry's mission to save Iris. 

It all boiled down to the same agenda.

[Trini]

This Keiynan Lonsdale interview is mainly about Love, Simon, but he touched a little bit about Wally and race:

Quote

A lot of people know you from “The Flash.” How was it booking that particular role?

It was awesome. I had done a couple films in America before, and so I was starting to get used to the idea that I can take myself seriously as an actor. Then stepping into a show where I knew it was going to be full-time almost felt like it could be a cool training ground. It was overwhelming and it was exciting. I also was a huge fan of the show. I watched the first season, so I was obsessed with it, so to be cast in it was really cool. It was also the first time I had been exposed to online racism.

What do you mean by that?

The character is originally Caucasian [in the comic books], and so when I got cast — they had changed the character in the most recent comic books and his father and sister are black, but people still didn't put two and two together. It was interesting. I was upset and hurt and I couldn't understand it.

How did you get past it?

I think one thing that helped — and made me sad but it made me realize it wasn't personal — was once I got to set, I found out that Candice [Patton], who plays my sister Iris, had also been receiving it, so I was like, "Whoa, this is what people do? People care about that?" Coming from Australia, of course we still have racism, but it's different. So it was an education. I needed to experience that. There were definitely things that have tested my emotions, and just learning how to not respond to really awful [stuff], and learning to be like, "It doesn't matter. I'm good, good exactly as I am." I learned a lot about that by joining a show.

[Kate45]

Wow, some great points are bring brought up in this topic! 

A couple of things. First, I completely agree that AJK didn't care for Iris, I don't know about Candice. I think he underestimated her talent at first, and started to recognize her talent much later than he should. Either way, Im glad he's gone. Second, just for the sake of fairness, AJK was the show runner during season 1, and the second half of season 2. He was the co-show runner of season 3 with Todd and Aaron Helbing, and at the start of season 4 with Todd. The show runner for season 2, episodes 1-9 was Gabrielle Stanton. Iris had much better narrative position and importance starting with season 3, and that was at the direction of Greg Berlanti. Based on what I have observed, Todd may have possibly been a pushover when it came to AJK and his vision for the show. I think this is also related to AJK being the one who hired him to be an exec producer on the show.

I am very encouraged by Todd being the show runner on his own because he has a great appreciation for Iris and WestAllen. In a recent interview, he explicitly stated that Iris is a selfless character and that she needed to get back to finding her own passion in life. I have never heard AJK say anything close to that about Iris. Also, the irony of Barry finally calling Iris his "lightning rod" on the very first post-AJK episode is not lost on me. As far as I can remember, Todd and Aaron were the only ones to talk about Iris being Barry's lightning rod, but I always thought it was strange that it was never explicitly stated on the show. 

I don't just watch what happens on screen, I am also really into the BTS stuff as well. So, I tend to look up the writers/directors of the episodes. Honestly, I have found some interesting trends, and I think it bodes well for Iris moving forward. For example, oftentimes when Todd (and Aaron when he was with the show) writes an episode, I know that Iris will get decent screen time/will get to display her intelligence. This season Todd wrote or co-wrote 4x01, 4x08, and 4x15. In my opinion, all three of those episodes were really good for Iris. It seems that Eric Wallace and Judalina also write well for Iris. Eric co-wrote 4x07, and wrote 4x16.  

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

When the show has a scene where Team Flash meet Barry, disoriented from the Speedforce and the first reaction shot after Barry's face is Caitlin's? That's not "accidental" chemistry.

Another thing to consider is the role of the directing choices. I have looked at Flash scripts, and there is close to no direction in them. In fact, I know that the directors even have the opportunity to change some of the dialog since Kevin Smith has mentioned this before.  This scene you are talking about? That was a directing/editing choice. It was such a strange choice too, since it was clear that Barry wasn't looking in her direction. 

9 hours ago, Starry said:

I wonder why Snowbarry never happened? The Snowbarry moments were clearly planned and not a result of accidental chemistry. Kreisberg was with the show for 3+ seasons, seemed to like DP and the ship so I don't get why Barry was never written to be even mildly interested in Caitlin. I say this as someone who was waiting for it to happen, even as a mid-game pairing but I was actually surprised that despite the one-sided baiting the ship went nowhere (not that I'm complaining...). It can't be because they were married to the idea of Westallen because they wasted no time forgetting about Westallen in s2 when Patty was the main LI.

How many of those moments do you think were actually planned? Because I just re-watched season 1, and I think most of it was based on Danielle's acting choices. Of course, the everyman kiss was a shipper bait moment, as well as the karaoke episode to an extent. However, within the actual narrative of the show, Caitlin nor Barry have come close to acknowledging feelings for the other person. They put Caitlin in an especially bad light with the everyman kiss, since she was still engaged to Ronnie at the time. Funny enough, the people who wrote that episode have never written another episode for The Flash.

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I'd like to think that Berlanti was adamant that the ship never happened, but if he was, DP would never have been promoting it the way she did. I think it's more likely that the mandate was "Westallen First ... Then We'll See". I remember DP once gave an interview in season 3 where she said to Snowbarry fans that, "it's Westallen's time, so let their fans have that" which... *insert snake gif*  AK and DP might have been banking on making Snowbarry endgame so they tried to make Westallen the Clana/Lauriver to endgame Clois/Olicity for Snowbarry.

Keep this in mind: Berlanti has a million shows on the air, and he has recently acknowledged that he took a hands-off approach with shows after the AJK mess. Now, he seems to be much more involved than he was before. About Danielle pushing SB? I think she had the backing of AJK, who is/was a close friend of hers. No one can tell if she actually ever auditioned for the role of Caitlin, since she never talks about her audition process which is in stark contrast with all of the other young actors. I still find it very interesting that they made Caitlin a younger character just so that Danielle could play the role. Originally, Caitlin was supposed to be in her late 30s/ early 40s, and a love interest for Wells.

Danielle's tune has changed since AJK left and she seems much more supportive of Iris and the Barry/Iris relationship. I haven't heard her mention SB in a while (even before AJK left), and I have watched multiple interviews and she seems to have moved on from that plot idea. Candice also comes off as much more confident since AJK left. I loved reading her interviews with Todd, because I could sense a mutual respect, which I don't quite recall being the case with AJK.

I cannot overstate how happy I am that AJK is gone.  

[Starry]

10 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I don't think you can divorce the writing for that from this:

The writers' agenda may have been "Let's punish Iris" but I never got the impression that Barry himself was written as wanting to punish her for calling off the engagement. Maybe I have to go back and rewatch the breakup scene because the way I remember it, he was just validating her fears.

10 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I'd like to think that Berlanti was adamant that the ship never happened, but if he was, DP would never have been promoting it the way she did. I think it's more likely that the mandate was "Westallen First ... Then We'll See". I remember DP once gave an interview in season 3 where she said to Snowbarry fans that, "it's Westallen's time, so let their fans have that" which... *insert snake gif*  AK and DP might have been banking on making Snowbarry endgame so they tried to make Westallen the Clana/Lauriver to endgame Clois/Olicity for Snowbarry.

If that were the plan, they were taking too long at planting the "endgame seeds". You can't go 3+ seasons without Barry reciprocating Caitlin's interest in any way and then force a Snowbarry endgame on the viewers in, let's say, s5. There was no SB in s2. There was the Killer Frost murder kiss and some baiting with Savitar in s3, once again only from Frost's end. Some higher up must have disliked the ship and wasn't willing to let it be anything more than some one-sided baiting because they are nothing like Olicity/Clois. Maybe Berlanti, or someone else with more power than Kreisberg, was like "Maybe" when in reality what he meant was "No, everything else must fail before we consider SB".

Unlike Caitlin, Felicity wasn't a character that was a part of the original Arrow cast. By the first half of s2, the feelings were mutual. It took the Arrow TPTB less than one season to switch from Lauriver to Olicity. I didn't watch Smallville but from what I've heard the original TPTB actually liked Clana. There were also some legal issues preventing them from using Lois the way they were supposed to and that probably impacted the writing for Clois. Correct me if I'm wrong because like I said I didn't watch the show.

The start of s2 was the ideal time for SB but TPTB gave them even less "moments" and had both characters date other people. My initial thought was that SB was their Plan B in case Westallen failed but apparently they weren't good enough for Plan B either. When they started writing away from Westallen, they brought in Patty and gave Caitlin "Jay". It can't be a comic canon issue either because they had no problem having Barry date Wally West's OTL. Barry/Linda sounds like a more controversial couple than Barry/Caitlin from a comic canon standpoint.

7 hours ago, Kate45 said:

A couple of things. First, I completely agree that AJK didn't care for Iris, I don't know about Candice. I think he underestimated her talent at first, and started to recognize her talent much later than he should. Either way, Im glad he's gone. Second, just for the sake of fairness, AJK was the show runner during season 1, and the second half of season 2. He was the co-show runner of season 3 with Todd and Aaron Helbing, and at the start of season 4 with Todd. The show runner for season 2, episodes 1-9 was Gabrielle Stanton. Iris had much better narrative position and importance starting with season 3, and that was at the direction of Greg Berlanti. Based on what I have observed, Todd may have possibly been a pushover when it came to AJK and his vision for the show. I think this is also related to AJK being the one who hired him to be an exec producer on the show.

You probably know this better than me, do you think it's possible that despite Todd being the co-showrunner AJK had final say? That Todd couldn't contradict him even if he wanted to?

 

7 hours ago, Kate45 said:

How many of those moments do you think were actually planned? Because I just re-watched season 1, and I think most of it was based on Danielle's acting choices. Of course, the everyman kiss was a shipper bait moment, as well as the karaoke episode to an extent. However, within the actual narrative of the show, Caitlin nor Barry have come close to acknowledging feelings for the other person. They put Caitlin in an especially bad light with the everyman kiss, since she was still engaged to Ronnie at the time. Funny enough, the people who wrote that episode have never written another episode for The Flash.

All of them. It wasn't just acting choices from DP. The actual dialogue used to hint at SB with some themes that were brought up in multiple episodes, like Caitlin comparing Barry to her dead fiancé. And even if it was just DP pushing the ship, she can give Barry as many soulful looks as she wants but none of it will make it to the screen if the direction/editing won't focus on her facial expressions. Obviously someone with more power than her used to agree with her acting choices.

Whatever opinion one has of DP, she's not stupid. She wouldn't be at SDCC 2014 talking about love triangles if the SB moments weren't planned.

On a good note, TPTB have always "protected" Westallen through the writing for Barry in regards to his other LIs. He's never loved anyone other than Iris. He settled, tried to move one, etc. but one can't make the argument that Iris is his second choice, that at one point in time he loved someone just as much as he loves her now or even close. He never fought for his other LIs. The Westallen haters know this and never use Felicity/Linda/Patty/Caitlin to take pot shots at Westallen (they probably wish they could...). They use Eddie to make Barry look like second choice. They can't do the same with Iris without sounding like fools.

[SevenStars]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

 

On a good note, TPTB have always "protected" Westallen through the writing for Barry in regards to his other LIs. He's never loved anyone other than Iris. He settled, tried to move one, etc. but one can't make the argument that Iris is his second choice, that at one point in time he loved someone just as much as he loves her now or even close. He never fought for his other LIs. The Westallen haters know this and never use Felicity/Linda/Patty/Caitlin to take pot shots at Westallen (they probably wish they could...). They use Eddie to make Barry look like second choice. They can't do the same with Iris without sounding like fools.

 

I agree with this. The haters still try to use Patty but the argument ends the minute someone post the scene/gif of Barry telling Joe how good Patty is but ends it with "But she's not Iris". 

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

The start of s2 was the ideal time for SB but TPTB gave them even less "moments" and had both characters date other people. My initial thought was that SB was their Plan B in case Westallen failed but apparently they weren't good enough for Plan B either. When they started writing away from Westallen, they brought in Patty and gave Caitlin "Jay". It can't be a comic canon issue either because they had no problem having Barry date Wally West's OTL. Barry/Linda sounds like a more controversial couple than Barry/Caitlin from a comic canon standpoint.

The problem isn't so much who the characters date, but who is their endgame. From what I can tell, the show has no interest in telling Wally's story, and they have given Barry 2 of Wally's big bad as well as some of his rogue gallery. Sadly, I don't think Linda/Wally will ever happen on the show. Also, keep this in mind: all of the characters on our screens are rented from DC. 

2 hours ago, Starry said:

2 hours ago, Starry said:

You probably know this better than me, do you think it's possible that despite Todd being the co-showrunner AJK had final say? That Todd couldn't contradict him even if he wanted to?

I pretty much know this to be the case, based on interviews that I have read. One that comes to mind is an interview with Todd and Aaron when they talked about writing the teleplay for the musical. AJK just told them they were going to write it. No discussion or collaboration. Again, AJK was the one that hired them to become exec producers so that set the tone for their relationship. Todd and Aaron wrote some of the most successful episodes of season 1, so some level of jealousy may have been in play as well. AJK definitely had the final say on this show. Here's an example of the overpowering nature of AJK (if you can handle looking at the pig), you can see that AJK completely takes over the interview: 

Edited March 21, 2018 by Kate45

[Trini]

(This has sort of veered into Relationships...)
I honestly don't think Barry/Caitlin were as much of a threat as some think. If that pairing was ever going to happen, it would have been in season 1 or 2. There was some one-sided baiting in the first season, but that's also the season where Caitlin married Ronnie. (And Ronnie/Robbie Amell didn't want to be tied down to Vancouver, or else he probably would have been on the show longer.) In any case, they'd clearly moved on from that pairing happening by the start of Season 3, and were (are) invested with Barry/Iris.

[Kate45]

5 hours ago, Trini said:

(This has sort of veered into Relationships...)
I honestly don't think Barry/Caitlin were as much of a threat as some think. If that pairing was ever going to happen, it would have been in season 1 or 2. There was some one-sided baiting in the first season, but that's also the season where Caitlin married Ronnie. (And Ronnie/Robbie Amell didn't want to be tied down to Vancouver, or else he probably would have been on the show longer.) In any case, they'd clearly moved on from that pairing happening by the start of Season 3, and were (are) invested with Barry/Iris.

It really wasn't a threat, and I am going to write up a post about why I believe this to be the case.

People can say what they want, but Iris has actually always been very connected to Barry and his powers in a way that Caitlin never was at any point of the show. 

Another thing is that the protagonist tends to be the one pursuing the other person when the producers want the audience to be invested in the romance. On this show, Barry has only ever pursued Iris. Every other woman pursued Barry, and then Barry showed interest. 

[Starry]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

(This has sort of veered into Relationships...)
I honestly don't think Barry/Caitlin were as much of a threat as some think. If that pairing was ever going to happen, it would have been in season 1 or 2. There was some one-sided baiting in the first season, but that's also the season where Caitlin married Ronnie. (And Ronnie/Robbie Amell didn't want to be tied down to Vancouver, or else he probably would have been on the show longer.) In any case, they'd clearly moved on from that pairing happening by the start of Season 3, and were (are) invested with Barry/Iris.

I don't think it was this big threat either*. Despite their one-sided moments being clearly planned and two major baiting episodes, the s1 OTP was Westallen. There was much more Westallen than SB. It doesn't even come close.

*It's worth discussing though. IMO it's "interesting" that the showrunners felt the need to immediately present an alternative to their interracial OTP. The same thing happened, on a larger scale, on Supergirl with James and Winn. 

14 hours ago, doram said:

But because I'm a cynical bitch I wonder if that was also because the showrunners (all of them, not just AJK) couldn't conceive of a scenario where Caitlin was interested in Barry and Barry rejected her for Iris.

 

I've never thought about this possibility but it makes sense, especially if you consider that the only woman who knew she couldn't measure up to Iris was Linda, who wasn't white. Caitlin never actively pursued Barry. He didn't even know about the Everyman kiss.

Patty did actively pursue Barry but left Central City thinking that Barry and Iris were like siblings. Even though the audience was aware that Patty didn't measure up to Iris in Barry's eyes (she's not Iris), the character herself didn't.

One could make the argument that the writers were protecting the white women's fictional feelings by not letting them face the fact that their object of affection was rejecting them for someone else, and that someone else was a black woman.

9 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Another thing is that the protagonist tends to be the one pursuing the other person when the producers want the audience to be invested in the romance. On this show, Barry has only ever pursued Iris. Every other woman pursued Barry, and then Barry showed interest. 

True. And this is the only DCTV show where this has happened. Felicity may be the current love of Oliver's life but he did love Laurel, no matter how messed up that relationship was. In s1 Kara was actively interested in James even though the show tried to retcon it and made Mon-El her big love. It may be too soon to judge but the only other DCTV show that has a situation similar to The Flash and Westallen in this aspect is Black Lightning, and Jefferson's OTL is a black woman too.

There's also the fact that Barry is in love with Iris in all universes and timelines, while there's an Earth where Oliver and Kara are together and not with Felicity/Mon-El. Despite the baiting, the fact that the writers have underused Iris and were not always invested in writing for Westallen, Barry's love for Iris is that sacred to them in this aspect.

Edited March 22, 2018 by Starry

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

There's also the fact that Barry is in love with Iris in all universes and timelines, while there's an Earth where Oliver and Kara are together and not with Felicity/Mon-El.

Yeah, but that was the Nazi earth.  I kind of doubt that Nazi-Barry was in love with Iris there.

[Starry]

25 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Yeah, but that was the Nazi earth.  I kind of doubt that Nazi-Barry was in love with Iris there.

It's not canon that there's a Nazi Barry. Earth-X Barry could be a Nazi, a member of the Resistance or not exist at all. From what we've been shown Barry is in love with Iris on every Earth and in every timeline*. Since we're discussing race, it's pretty impressive that the black woman gets to be the OTL of the protagonist in every universe/timeline while white Felicity and white Mon-El don't.

On the flipside, there's the Savitar issue that was brought up in another discussion with Iris (black) being the only "love of the hero's life" being murdered by an evil version of her lover. And even Savitar was in love with Iris, even if the "relationship" was toxic and not something you could root for.

* I know that in the future the writers could possibly break up Westallen or introduce an Earth/timeline where Barry is in love with someone else but for the sake of this discussion I'd rather not speak in hypotheticals.

[Featherhat]

18 hours ago, Starry said:

There's also the fact that Barry is in love with Iris in all universes and timelines, while there's an Earth where Oliver and Kara are together and not with Felicity/Mon-El. Despite the baiting, the fact that the writers have underused Iris and were not always invested in writing for Westallen, Barry's love for Iris is that sacred to them in this aspect.

Given that Oliver was the Fuhrer and Felicity is Jewish, I certainly *hope* they wouldn't be together in that scenario. Kara/Mon- El could be but I guess she would already be married to naziOliver when he arrived on EarthX. 

I don't think Snowbarry was ever seriously on the cards. Sure, they kinda brought up the possibility now and then for a while, but it went less far than most accidental romantic chemistry on TV shows. If they were going to do it, S2 would have been the time and they wrote in "classic temp love interest" Patty instead. It's possible DP was promoting it because she'd been told it might happen when she signed on for the show and it does keep fans talking about her and Caitlin and "proves" her worth to the show, not that anyone was giving her their blessing to tease it. It probably was a back up for a while but by the time bland Jay happened in S2 it wasn't going ahead. Despite everything, WA were married at the start of S4, which is early for a show hoping to run 8-10 seasons. 

I think with WestAllen it was always planned to be endgame, unless they had zero chemistry or something happened with the actors. I do think the nature of the pairing "destined" and everything does make some writers lazy about them "oh they're awesome and destined, no need to bother writing towards them yet" unlike the need to course correct in Arrow or other character's pairings/friendships etc, they're a done deal so we can relax and then they throw out other characters talking about how awesome they are without putting the screentime in. That and some of AK may not have been particularly enamoured with them. 

On ‎21‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:15 PM, Kate45 said:

From what I can tell, the show has no interest in telling Wally's story, and they have given Barry 2 of Wally's big bad as well as some of his rogue gallery. Sadly, I don't think Linda/Wally will ever happen on the show. Also, keep this in mind: all of the characters on our screens are rented from DC. 

Well given that Wally is a regular on another show now, I really don't think they're interested in his story on Flash, let alone having him date Barry's ex. 

[Starry]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

Given that Oliver was the Fuhrer and Felicity is Jewish, I certainly *hope* they wouldn't be together in that scenario. Kara/Mon- El could be but I guess she would already be married to naziOliver when he arrived on EarthX.

Agreed. I guess my point is that they could have avoided a situation where there's an Earth where Oliver is in love with someone who isn't Felicity.

Earth-X Oliver could not have been the Fuhrer. They could have made Tommy the Fuhrer (just to make an example...).

Earth-X Oliver could have been the Fuhrer but they could have avoided the Nazi love story. Overgirl could have been someone he needed to save for her God-like power and her worth as a General not because she was the love of his Nazi life.

Earth-X could not have been a Nazi Earth. It could have been a fictional evil empire. This way they could have had evil Oliver married to evil Felicity.

But this is veering into OT territory so I'll stop here...

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

I don't think Snowbarry was ever seriously on the cards. Sure, they kinda brought up the possibility now and then for a while, but it went less far than most accidental romantic chemistry on TV shows. If they were going to do it, S2 would have been the time and they wrote in "classic temp love interest" Patty instead. It's possible DP was promoting it because she'd been told it might happen when she signed on for the show and it does keep fans talking about her and Caitlin and "proves" her worth to the show, not that anyone was giving her their blessing to tease it. It probably was a back up for a while but by the time bland Jay happened in S2 it wasn't going ahead. Despite everything, WA were married at the start of S4, which is early for a show hoping to run 8-10 seasons.

The showrunners were definitely giving her permission to tease it. And she teased it immediately, before the pilot even aired. I think it's crappy that the same showrunners who told Candice to avoid social media after she was cast, because they were aware of the racist backlash, gave the white supporting actress permission to bait a ship that attracted the racist portion of their viewers. I don't know how that could have helped Candice in any way. Quite the contrary, it made the most ardent SB supporters even more entitled.

In retrospect, we can say that Snowbarry wasn't a serious option but if you were a part of the fandom and read the message boards back then, a lot of people thought it could go either way.

I agree that Snowbarry was written more as Plan B than eventual endgame though. And that s2 put the kibosh on that ship.

[Kate45]

On 3/21/2018 at 8:07 AM, Starry said:

All of them. It wasn't just acting choices from DP. The actual dialogue used to hint at SB with some themes that were brought up in multiple episodes, like Caitlin comparing Barry to her dead fiancé. And even if it was just DP pushing the ship, she can give Barry as many soulful looks as she wants but none of it will make it to the screen if the direction/editing won't focus on her facial expressions. Obviously someone with more power than her used to agree with her acting choices.

Whatever opinion one has of DP, she's not stupid. She wouldn't be at SDCC 2014 talking about love triangles if the SB moments weren't planned.

I think someone told her it was a possibility, and I think that person was AJK. But, look at the actual episodes, and no such triangle happened with Barry/Ronnie/Caitlin or Barry/Iris/Caitlin. The only triangle to appear on our screens was Barry/Iris/Eddie or Barry/Iris/Linda, and I struggle to truly call those examples triangles in the traditional sense. They probably thought about it, because this is The CW, but it didn’t come to fruition.

TV writers don't write for people like us who analyze the things that happen on the show (via multiple viewings, making gifs, fanfic writers etc.), or even for the fandom at large. They write for the casual viewer that tunes in each week, but does not visit any websites, read interviews, or research much about the show. I was a casual viewer in season 1 and part of season 2, so I can safely say that I was **stunned** to see that SnowBarry was a thing or that it had a following.  

So, because they write for the casual viewer, couples that are coming are visible from a mile away. Any other couple falls under possible Ship Tease. This article does a great job of explaining the difference between Ship Tease and subtext in the Arrowverse: http://www.withanaccent.com/2017/12/23/not-just-otp-importance-seeing-subtext/4/

I know that it is believed that all of these shipping moments were planned, but I struggle to see why they stopped them all together from season 2 on. If anything, I see what happened in season 1 as relationship building. However, I also have a hard time believing that Caitlin/Barry are even friends at this point (perhaps, work friends/colleagues?).  

If they were really pushing for subtext leading to a Barry/Caitlin relationship, he should have at least had Barry rescue Caitlin at least once. In 1x10, Caitlin was kidnapped by Captain Cold, but he sent Cisco and Joe to rescue her. In season 2, Zoom kidnapped Caitlin and that didn’t even prompt him to get his powers back. In fact, once he got his powers back, he went to visit his mother’s grave with Iris and never went to get Caitlin. If Zoom hadn’t released her, I’m not sure that Barry would have ever gone to get her.  He literally put more effort into finding Eddie than he did to find her. In Flash Point, Barry only found Caitlin to “complete the team”. You get my point.  Barry has never rescued her, and has never prioritized her over anyone really. We don't even have dialogue from Caitlin about her feelings for Barry.  In fact, Caitlin and Cisco have had more Ship Tease moments that Barry and Caitlin, but the KillerVibe ship has a very small following. I think we all know why that is.

If I am being honest, I think most of the relationship building between Caitlin and Barry happened as a byproduct to infantilizing Cisco. It strikes me as odd that Barry never talked to Cisco about his feelings for Iris, and all of those conversations were reserved for Caitlin. I guess it’s the same way that Cisco went through season 3 seasons without a serious girlfriend, but Caitlin has had 3 different love interests. I hope we can finish this season without a boyfriend for Caitlin.

9 hours ago, doram said:

There's so much to deconstruct in this. It's basically "performative progressiveness". On the one hand, they're pushing diversity by casting Iris and Joe as Black, and they're being "woke" enough to forewarn Candice about the backlash. But on the other hand, they're deliberately creating a situation where her character and her, the actress, will have it harder to be accepted by the audience. Amongst all you've listed about promoting Snowbarry, let's not forget that Caitlin Snow was originally supposed to be an older woman, a contemporary and possible ally of Eo-wells, and instead they chose to make her younger, a non-villain, and a potential rival to Iris. They made poor choices about Iris, poor choices about the dynamic between Iris and Caitlin (again, there's no reason why these two women won't have been friends. Technically, Iris knew Caitlin before Barry did. She had been coming to Star Labs for 9 months almost daily, and the show acts like she and CiscoCaitlin were virtual strangers), made poor choices about Caitlin's attitude towards Barry's secrecy, etc. Of course, there will always be people who would watch a scene where Caitlin is pushing Westallen and still hate Iris --- but the writers/showrunners did not make the situation better. 

It's why I seriously wonder if they hadn't planned to design Westallen to fail, or to not be long-term. 

I don't think they planned for it to fail, in fact, I see in the opposite way. I think they planned for Laurel/Oliver to fail, or at the very least make it difficult to root for them. I'm not sure how a couple can come back from "I wish you had died instead of my sister", but I digress. 

Back to Barry and Iris. In season 1, they doubled down on the plan to make Barry and Iris the endgame with the newspaper headline. The first time we see the newspaper headline, the name on the byline is Evan Gibson. They could have kept it that way, but they made the decision to change it to Iris West-Allen, after she became a reporter. They also told us in the finale that Barry and Iris were married in the original timeline (that we have never seen since season 1 was the altered timeline). Again, all things they could have left out if they wanted WestAllen to fail.

Also, we have to consider Barry's powers. In this show, Iris has been connected to Barry and his powers in a way that no one else has ever been. Haters can attempt to deny it, but it is very clear in the narrative and has been a pretty consistent theme. She has a very important place in the narrative, and it's a spot that no one else can take. 

All of this happened before the show ever aired on tv or before the backlash about Iris started:

• Iris activated Barry's powers
• She was the first person he saved
• Learned how to vibrate his voice to talk to her as The Flash
• He did the SuperSonic punch to save her/ went above Mach 2 for the first time

After the show aired, and the backlash was well-known

• He time traveled for the first time after kissing her 
• You could kind of say that stopping trickster was related to him learning how to phase, but that could be a stretch, lol. 
• She brought him back from the Speed Force
•  She was able to break him out of his "beautiful mind" phase 
• He went faster than ever before to save her from the Samurai
• He pulled Iris into FlashTime
• Iris is the only person who has yet to get tired in FlashTime
• She has been officially called Barry's lightning rod, but without context of what it actually means. The narrative is very clear that Iris is his lightning rod, but they haven't explained it on the show up to this point. I hope that changes soon. 

These are all of the instances that I can think of at the top of my head. The only power I can remember Barry unlocking and it being entirely unrelated to Iris was the lightning bolt toss, but that happened during 2A, and in general I don't include that as a part of the show. LOL.

Edited March 24, 2018 by Kate45

[Trini]

8 hours ago, doram said:

Anyway, I've personally felt for a while that there's an oddity to the way Olicity is written as a show OTP. It might be a fallout of the fact that the show originally established another OTP and the show's never quite recovered from that switch...

In addition to what Kate45 said, I think an 'outside the narrative' reason that Barry/Iris are protected (from losing their 'endgame' status) is that out of all the Arrow-verse shows (but Gotham fits too) it's the only pairing set up from the start that was successful. Every other show had come up with new OTPs. Plus, I think DC is at least partially invested in them staying together since it's most likely Iris West will be Black in the movie universe as well. (I think there are also a couple other reasons also, but I'll have to go into it later...)

 

6 hours ago, Kate45 said:

  In fact, Caitlin and Cisco have had more Ship Tease moments that Barry and Caitlin, but the KillerVibe ship has a very small following. I think we all know why that is.

There may be several reasons (again I can't go into it at length *right now*), but yeah, I'm surprised they've never tried it.

 

6 hours ago, Kate45 said:

but that happened during 2A, and in general I don't include that as a part of the show. LOL.

Heh! Let's not ignore it, but can we all agree that 2A was atypical for the show overall? Especially for WestAllen?

[Kate45]

31 minutes ago, Trini said:

Heh! Let's not ignore it, but can we all agree that 2A was atypical for the show overall? Especially for WestAllen?

Ok, I won't completely ignore it, lol. I guess it did give us Jesse and Wally. 

[Trini]

On 3/23/2018 at 7:36 PM, Trini said:

On 3/23/2018 at 1:06 PM, Kate45 said:

  In fact, Caitlin and Cisco have had more Ship Tease moments that Barry and Caitlin, but the KillerVibe ship has a very small following. I think we all know why that is.

There may be several reasons (again I can't go into it at length *right now*), but yeah, I'm surprised they've never tried it.

Er- so I'm realizing that you meant KillerVibe isn't that popular among fans, but I was thinking about why it wasn't popular with the show (writers). However, that's not to say there isn't similar reasoning on both sides.

With Cisco and Caitlin, I think they were conceived as only friends and co-workers; and they only used any romantic feelings they had to connect them to guest characters. They are supporting characters, and I don't think the writers really think about their love lives much beyond plot purposes.

They also might not want to try to put them together while they have other love interests -- they don't want to bother with love triangles for side characters. Caitlin was with Ronnie, Hunter, and Julian; and now Cisco is with Cynthia. Or maybe they think that it would be too awkward to have another couple of regulars both dating AND working at STAR Labs -- that might pull focus away from the main couple of the show (Barry/Iris).

As for fan reasons; I could see some wanting Cisco to stay the flirty nerd horndog (but at the same time sexless and juvenile) that he was in Season 1. And others might want Caitlin paired up with any other male characters to preserve the friendship (which is nice, though it's been mostly ignored this season).

Edited March 27, 2018 by Trini
added dropped word; clarification

[Trini]

On 3/23/2018 at 7:36 PM, Trini said:

In addition to what Kate45 said, I think an 'outside the narrative' reason that Barry/Iris are protected (from losing their 'endgame' status) is that out of all the Arrow-verse shows (but Gotham fits too) it's the only pairing set up from the start that was successful. Every other show had come up with new OTPs. Plus, I think DC is at least partially invested in them staying together since it's most likely Iris West will be Black in the movie universe as well. (I think there are also a couple other reasons also, but I'll have to go into it later...)

Just to expand on this a little more:

• I think they know they messed up with Arrow, and they were determined to make the love story work on The Flash.
• While Barry/Iris isn't as well known (at least until this show) as Lois/Clark, or Bruce/Selina, the Flash is still one of DC's A-list characters, so I think they wanted to stick with the comic love interest as much as possible and not make a major deviation. (And even when the option of deviation was there with Patty, she was still a comic love interest.)
• And perhaps they want to keep those "diversity points" they've earned with casting the Wests with African-Americans.

[Velocity23]

On 22. 3. 2018 at 6:08 PM, Starry said:

It's not canon that there's a Nazi Barry. Earth-X Barry could be a Nazi, a member of the Resistance or not exist at all. From what we've been shown Barry is in love with Iris on every Earth and in every timeline*. Since we're discussing race, it's pretty impressive that the black woman gets to be the OTL of the protagonist in every universe/timeline while white Felicity and white Mon-El don't.

On the flipside, there's the Savitar issue that was brought up in another discussion with Iris (black) being the only "love of the hero's life" being murdered by an evil version of her lover. And even Savitar was in love with Iris, even if the "relationship" was toxic and not something you could root for.

* I know that in the future the writers could possibly break up Westallen or introduce an Earth/timeline where Barry is in love with someone else but for the sake of this discussion I'd rather not speak in hypotheticals.

X-Barry was a Nazi. The Ray spin-off actually has him fighting along X-Oliver. And that spin-off is a prequel to the crossover. They even had Grant Gustin voice the Flash from Earth X. And the producers even admitted that the reason why we did not see Nazi Barry in the crossover is because they did Savitar in s3.  But with the way they protecting Barry Allen we all know the reason why they didnt not want to make him a nazi on TV. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Velocity23

[Trini]

18 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

X-Barry was a Nazi. The Ray spin-off actually has him fighting along X-Oliver. And that spin-off is a prequel to the crossover. They even had Grant Gustin voice the Flash from Earth X. And the producers even admitted that the reason why we did not see Nazi Barry in the crossover is because they did Savitar in s3. 

 

Grant Gustin didn't do the voice for 'Blitzkrieg'; it's credited to a Scott Whyte. He's not referred to as Barry Allen in the episodes, although it's a safe assumption that's who it is. It's still unclear how Freedom Fighters fits into Arrow-verse continuity, since there are some things that don't line up.

Quote

But with the way they protecting Barry Allen we all know the reason why they didnt not want to make him a nazi on TV. 

You mean besides them not wanting to repeat themselves, and to give Tom Cavanugh a role in the crossover? Care to elaborate?

Edited March 27, 2018 by Trini

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

You mean besides them not wanting to repeat themselves, and to give Tom Cavanugh a role in the crossover? Care to elaborate?

I think nobody wanted to see a version of Barry Allen referring to Iris with PG-13 versions of the "N" word.  And if Nazi-Barry knew about her that's what would happen.

[Starry]

5 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

And the producers even admitted that the reason why we did not see Nazi Barry in the crossover is because they did Savitar in s3.  But with the way they protecting Barry Allen we all know the reason why they didnt not want to make him a nazi on TV.

You can't imply that the producers want to protect Barry Allen's integrity and "pure" heart when Savitar exists.

[Velocity23]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

You can't imply that the producers want to protect Barry Allen's integrity and "pure" heart when Savitar exists.

When the producers and the show itself has repeatedly ignored the times the team and Barry were responsible for metahumans deaths but at the same calling other vigilantes murderers. He is the Clark of Smallville where everybody else can do the dirty work. 

The protection of Barry was evident with Savitar also and was a very superficial reveal with Savitar being a time remnant of Barry. There was nothing behind the reveal outside shock-value. 

7 hours ago, Trini said:

Grant Gustin didn't do the voice for 'Blitzkrieg'; it's credited to a Scott Whyte. He's not referred to as Barry Allen in the episodes, although it's a safe assumption that who it is. It's still unclear how Freedom Fighters fits into Arrow-verse continuity, since there are some things that don't line up.

You mean besides them not wanting to repeat themselves, and to give Tom Cavanugh a role in the crossover? Care to elaborate?

Stephen Amell also isnt credited for the Black Arrow in the Freedom Fighters spinoff (but you can clearly hear his voice) so that dont mean much. Outside of the fact that the original plan was to have the 3 leads of Flash, Arrow and Supergirl to voice the character from Earth X. Only Barry was completely left out of the Nazi mess  during the crossover. Meanwhile Kara and Oliver were portrayed with their Nazi self. 

And the continuity mix-ups between the crossovers and the prequel is due to the fact that Kreisberg and Guggenheim didnt see eye to eye on that topic. And Guggenheim would not have cared if Barry Allen would have been showcased as a Nazi since he is not as involved in the Flash. 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Velocity23

[Starry]

50 minutes ago, Velocity23 said:

When the producers and the show itself has repeatedly ignored the times the team and Barry were responsible for metahumans deaths but at the same calling other vigilantes murderers. He is the Clark of Smallville where everybody else can do the dirty work. 

The protection of Barry was evident with Savitar also and was a very superficial reveal with Savitar being a time remnant of Barry. There was nothing behind the reveal outside shock-value.

Nazi Oliver and Kara was done for shock value as well. There was no profound meaning behind any of that. I'm sorry but Savitar and Nazi Barry in the span of one year IS overkill and I'm glad they didn't do it. I actually think they shouldn't have done the Nazi mess in the first place, just have Oliver and Kara as regular villains.

I agree that the show has retconned some things to push their "Barry doesn't kill" narrative. He has killed. I still disagree that what happened with Savitar helped protect Barry's image though.

[Trini]

11 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Stephen Amell also isnt credited for the Black Arrow in the Freedom Fighters spinoff (but you can clearly hear his voice) so that dont mean much.

It means that they found another voice actor that sounds similar to Amell.

[Katsullivan]

On 3/26/2018 at 10:11 AM, Starry said:

Nazi Oliver and Kara was done for shock value as well. There was no profound meaning behind any of that. I'm sorry but Savitar and Nazi Barry in the span of one year IS overkill and I'm glad they didn't do it. I actually think they shouldn't have done the Nazi mess in the first place, just have Oliver and Kara as regular villains.

Even though I'm usually a pessimist, I think it was an interesting hint of which relationships the show prioritized by making Oliver the Fuhrer in love with a Nazi Supergirl. As you said, they could have been some other kind of villain, giving Felicity the opportunity to be an Evil Queen to Oliver's King. Or we could go full Mirror-Trek-verse and have Oliver have a harem. Meanwhile, there's no Earth-X version of Barry or Iris in the cross-over so speculation of their relationship is open, making it possible that the "across every universe, we'll always be Barry and Iris" mandate is still true. 

[Katsullivan]

On 3/25/2018 at 11:22 PM, Trini said:

Er- so I'm realizing that you meant KillerVibe isn't that popular among fans, but I was thinking about why it wasn't popular with the show (writers). However, that's not to say there isn't similar reasoning on both sides.

With Cisco and Caitlin, I think they were conceived as only friends and co-workers; and they only used any romantic feelings they had to connect them to guest characters. They are supporting characters, and I don't think the writers really think about their love lives much beyond plot purposes.

But it's obvious why the writers didn't think about putting them in a relationship, isn't it? Seriously, Cisco/Caitlin would have been a nice beta couple to Westallen. I like Cynthia but she contributes to the problem of the show already having too many metas. Of course, the best thing would be for Caitlin to just leave the show - either go to Legends, or become full villain and be written out after a season. 

[Trini]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

But it's obvious why the writers didn't think about putting them in a relationship, isn't it?

I already gave some possible reasons; why do you think they haven't been paired up yet?

[Katsullivan]

13 hours ago, Trini said:

I already gave some possible reasons; why do you think they haven't been paired up yet?

Racism, obviously.

If Hermione had been a Black girl, do you think the H/Hr vs R/Hr wars would have happened? If Harry had been South Indian as some tumblrs love drawing him, would H/Hr vs H/G have been a thing?

But we already know the answer to that don't we? https://fanlore.org/wiki/Blaise_Zabini#Canon_Blaise_backlash

Edited March 29, 2018 by Katsullivan

[ruby24]

I don't understand why they didn't pair up Cisco and Caitlin either- would have been so easy and understandable. There would have been a lot more story mined out of it too.

So racism is probably the answer, I suppose.

[johntfs]

8 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Racism, obviously.

If Hermione had been a Black girl, do you think the H/Hr vs H/G wars would have happened? 

J. K Rowling never actually specifies Hermione's race in the books.  IIRC, in the play production of The Cursed Child, Hermione is Black.

[adora721]

On 3/23/2018 at 10:06 AM, Kate45 said:

On 3/21/2018 at 5:07 AM, Starry said:

All of them. It wasn't just acting choices from DP. The actual dialogue used to hint at SB with some themes that were brought up in multiple episodes, like Caitlin comparing Barry to her dead fiancé. And even if it was just DP pushing the ship, she can give Barry as many soulful looks as she wants but none of it will make it to the screen if the direction/editing won't focus on her facial expressions. Obviously someone with more power than her used to agree with her acting choices.

Whatever opinion one has of DP, she's not stupid. She wouldn't be at SDCC 2014 talking about love triangles if the SB moments weren't planned.

I think someone told her it was a possibility, and I think that person was AJK.

 

On 3/23/2018 at 7:42 AM, doram said:

The showrunners were definitely giving her permission to tease it. And she teased it immediately, before the pilot even aired. I think it's crappy that the same showrunners who told Candice to avoid social media after she was cast, because they were aware of the racist backlash, gave the white supporting actress permission to bait a ship that attracted the racist portion of their viewers. I don't know how that could have helped Candice in any way. Quite the contrary, it made the most ardent SB supporters even more entitled.

I'm so glad to see so many people discussing this issue.

I firmly believe that all the SB ship teases, all the bad writing for Iris at some key points, all the protecting of Caitlin no matter how many bad things she did, and even making Barry and Iris pseudo-siblings was AJK's attempt to undermine WestAllen in the minds of the public and the media. AJK had to be slick about, too. He had to find a way to make the public root for SB while seeming to support WestAllen. And I, for one, was concerned it would work.

Think about when Joe called Barry his "adopted" son, yet we know that if that were true, Barry and Iris couldn't legally marry. And we had many scenes with Barry and Henry proclaiming their father-son relationship, with Barry stating that he was proud to keep the Allen name. And yet the writers never made it absolutely clear that Joe was just his legal guardian or foster father. When Patty basically called Iris Barry's sister, why wasn't there a line for Iris to correct Patty? Even in the pilot when Iris said, "Because we're kinda like brother and sister...". That was completely unnecessary. I think AJK used the writing to poison the minds of those susceptible to the inference of "incest" to make WestAllen seem off-limits from the start, just like Oliver sleeping with Sara made Lauriver toxic from the start in "Arrow". I believe all this was a deliberate attempt to obfuscate, confuse, and muddy the romantic waters between Barry and Iris. The goal was to create strong media backlash against WestAllen similar to Lauriver. If that had worked, you bet they would have done something with SB.

AJK and DP were co-conspirators in this I believe.  DP had no shame about propping SB even while Caitlin had Ronnie back in her life. And she did this right in front of Candice. I've sensed for a long time that those two (DP and CP) do not get along well outside of their acting scenes on the show. Even the quickie SnoWest friendship seems acted with minimal enthusiasm or truthfulness. While you can tell that Carlos and CP get along in front of and behind the cameras.

For awhile, Caitlin and Iris never even stood next to each other. Caitlin only hugged Barry at the engagement announcement. At the housewarming party, Caitlin was right behind Joe after Iris hugged him, but Iris then hugs Cisco not Caitlin.  With these directing choices, AJK was setting up a rivalry and distance between these women in Barry's life. This was a conscious effort to pass them off to the audience as in battle for Barry's affections even while writing for WestAllen.  I'd like to think that Geoff Johns also had strong support for WestAllen that kept AJK from straying too far since Geoff wrote a lot "Flash" titles.

You know how there's talk of coded words that racists use that only other racists understand? It's the same. AJK knows the specific kinds of people who'd understand his covert form of racism and undermining of Iris and WestAllen. To this day, there are still those who bought into AJK's covert manipulation, and they will go to their graves still believing the lies AJK planted in the soil of the show. These people are such devoted believers in AJK's lies that they think that the Mystery Girl is Caitlin and Barry's daughter who gets her coloring from Joe. Yikes!

Edited March 29, 2018 by adora721

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, adora721 said:

AJK and DP were co-conspirators in this I believe.  DP had no shame about propping SB even while Caitlin had Ronnie back in her life. And she did this right in front of Candice. I've sensed for a long time that those two (DP and CP) do not get along well outside of their acting scenes on the show. Even the quickie SnoWest friendship seems acted with minimal enthusiasm or truthfulness. While you can tell that Carlos and CP get along in front of and behind the cameras.

I admit that I'm reluctant to ascribe to racism what can be explained by self-interest in the case Danielle Panabaker.  She's a working actress.  As such she wants more story, more camera time, etc.  As another consideration Kreisberg was one of the showrunners, so if he told Danielle "We're thinking of moving in a different direction regarding Barry's love life.  Would you consider stepping up into a role as his romantic S.O.  Or would remain the second-banana girl nerd or maybe get shitcanned off the show entirely?"  Figure if you're Danielle, you say you'll be open to the S.O. thing.  It's not a race thing so much as a self-interest/ambition thing.  How happy do you think Katie Cassidy was once she understood that she was getting booted out of her role as Oliver's one true love in favor of some blond Vancouver day-player who caught Steve Amell's eye (which likely how Cassidy would characterize Emily Bett Rickards' situation when she joined Arrow)?

[adora721]

3 hours ago, johntfs said:

I admit that I'm reluctant to ascribe to racism what can be explained by self-interest in the case Danielle Panabaker.  She's a working actress.  As such she wants more story, more camera time, etc.  As another consideration Kreisberg was one of the showrunners, so if he told Danielle "We're thinking of moving in a different direction regarding Barry's love life.  Would you consider stepping up into a role as his romantic S.O.  Or would remain the second-banana girl nerd or maybe get shitcanned off the show entirely?"  Figure if you're Danielle, you say you'll be open to the S.O. thing.  It's not a race thing so much as a self-interest/ambition thing.  How happy do you think Katie Cassidy was once she understood that she was getting booted out of her role as Oliver's one true love in favor of some blond Vancouver day-player who caught Steve Amell's eye (which likely how Cassidy would characterize Emily Bett Rickards' situation when she joined Arrow)?

To be sure, self-interest might be the sole reason DP was willing to undercut the lead actress, but you seem to think that racism and self-interest cannot occur simultaneously. That isn't the case; they can and do intersect. Don't you realize that some white feminists can also be racist against women of color? Seems contradictory, but it's also very true.

Anyway, I don't believe I implied racism for DP, but for AJK. I said that DP helped in his undermining of WestAllen by aiming to create media backlash against WestAllen, in her case, by promoting SB. 

I do think AJK used the naturally-occurring racism in fandom to help him do that. As others have said, the executives and producers all knew there would be racial anger with CP's casting. Even if AJK isn't himself a racist, he certainly used the racial tensions or anger in fandom to help his cause of undermining WestAllen and Iris' place in the story.

As for DP, she barely supported the "Run, Iris, Run" episode, whereas she's supported a lot of the other episodes.  DP has also been known to retweet some questionable or negative things and has been silent when clearly racist tweets have been sent to CP and DP was also on the thread. A great quote ascribed to MLK Jr. is, "In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."

Edited March 30, 2018 by adora721