The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

benteen · October 19, 2017

I would imagine allowing members to marry and have children would cause a problem for the Night's Watch. But I agree their rigidness in regards to their commitment is really costing them potential recruits.

I think the best thing for the Wall is to give the option for new recruits to serve 10 or 20 years (and you would have to serve this term as if you made a lifetime commitment). Criminals would still have to serve there permanently. I think you would get a lot of young knights and would-be lords who would sign up for that. Along with the Vale, the Wall is one of two places in Westeros where you can get legitimate combat experience. Northern lords could send their heirs to be squires for the Lord Commander and the First Knights. Those 10 to 20 year recruits would be given the option afterwards to swear lifetime service if they wished.

John Potts · October 19, 2017

23 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Sam and Jon's discussion about Gilly reminds once again why the Watch would probably have had better luck recruiting and keeping men if they didn't force them to swear off everything for little payoff.

I would imagine the problem with allowing the Lord Commander to marry would be the same as the one faced by the Catholic church at the turn of the last millennium: it's in danger of becoming a hereditary post. If the Night Watch is ruled by one family (de facto if not de jure) then it becomes just another Northern House and recruits would dry up. Of course it doesn't have to be a lifetime commitment, although the reason people are allowed to "Take the Black" is because they can't come back. They could allow people to commit to a term (presumably of years - just like the modern day army) and only require you to permanently join if you wanted a progress within the Nigh Watch (so posts such as First Ranger, the Lord Commander or commanders of any of the castles would be limited to permanent members).

Of course the theoretical advantages of NW members having "no past" break down in the face of the fact that their background clearly does matter in practice. Janos Slynt can insist on being addressed by a title despite having theoretically renounced it, the last First Ranger was the brother of a former Lord Stark (I don't think Benjen's been replaced) and the last Lord Commander was Lord Mormont (to be ultimately replaced by a Lord Snow/Stark/Targaryen). So the egalitarian nature of the Night Watch is more theory than practice in any case.

YaddaYadda · October 19, 2017

When the conquest happened, there were 10,000 swords at the Wall. In the matter of 300 years, there were less than 1,000. Why is that?

10,000 men is the number of men Doran Martell sent to help at the Trident. 10,000 is half the number of Robb's arm when he marched south. And if we're looking at knights mostly who served at the Wall back in those days, that means these are soldiers and fighting men. What happened in the span of 300 years that this is the NW we have now? Considering that the NW has been around since the Age of Heroes and they fought the Others during the Long Night, I find the dwindling numbers in the past 300 years pretty alarming.

Edited October 19, 2017 by YaddaYadda

Lady S. · October 19, 2017

Sorry for the tardiness.

On 10/16/2017 at 8:52 AM, YaddaYadda said:

I like how no one ever acknowledges that Sam is Selyse's cousin once removed. And maybe he's safer that way.

Well, yeah, that would be an awkward family catch-up since they just burned his Florent grandfather as a traitor.

On 10/17/2017 at 4:38 PM, Avaleigh said:

One thing that's striking to me is at no point in the last chapter does Arya come across as being worried for Sansa's well being. She wonders if Sansa could be dead but she pretty much takes it in stride in comparison to the way she feels about the other members of her family. Interesting too that she has no interest in seeking out Lysa. Since she doesn't know anything about the sort of woman that Lysa has become you'd think part of her would feel the pull of wanting to see how life might be with one of the few relatives she has left. I can't help but think that if Lysa were her father's sister that she'd be more interested. Arya seems prejudiced against all of the non wolves.

Sansa was still mentally insulting Arya when she had long been assumed dead, so I don't see it as a real mark against Arya that she didn't shed tears over an uncertain, bogus-sounding story. Thinking that she's now all alone in the world is about the same level of mourning Sansa ever shows for her presumed death, and I don't really blame either girl for turning away from abstract loss after all the real pain they've personally been through and witnessed. I thought it was striking that she wasn't sure Jon counted as a Stark even though he was her favorite sibling. But it's still him she tries to get to on the ship until the captain refuses, just as she earlier tried to convince Sandor to take her north to the Wall. I'm sure she would have still preferred Jon even if Ned had a living sibling she didn't even know. The family name (and its animal personification) as sources of strength and identity is something the Lannisters, Starks, and Dany all have in common and I wouldn't say Arya is any more paternally-minded than Robb or Bran or Sansa. Bemoaning the extinction of House Stark is understandable when it's the only family she's ever known. It's not like anyone is even offering to take her to the Eyrie, and after the way her two-book journey to find Robb/Cat ended she has little reason to want to try again all on her own with family who are unknown quantities.

ETA: Back to the Sam chapter, this is the Jon cryptdream bit I was thinking of earlier with sounds of Ned and Robb as if they were at a feast. That description reminds me of Theon's feast dream with all the already-dead characters where Robb and Grey Wind burst in full of red wedding foreshadowing. Dead people in dreams love their feasts, I'm not really sure of the full significance of that.

It's great that Stannis cares about his duty to protect the realm, but what really made him different from the other kings wrt the NW were his advisors. Davos for bringing the letter to his attention and reminding him of what a king should be, and Mel for knowing that the true enemy and the only war that matters was in the north. He'd already had the vision in the flames of a battle in the snow and been told something by Mel about the Long Night before Davos's last chapter, so I wonder what his feelings would be if he still believed, as did everyone else south of Castle Black, that the only threat to the Watch was from the wildlings. The wildlings were the immediate threat, but not really the one he came to fight, and that's really more a matter of foreknowledge than caring.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Lady S.

YaddaYadda · October 20, 2017

5 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Well, yeah, that would be an awkward family catch-up since they just burned his Florent grandfather as a traitor.

I live for awkward.

Avaleigh · October 24, 2017

Jon XI

Jon is training with Satin down in the yard when Melisandre comes over to see him. She has several of the queen's men with her and tells Jon that Stannis would like to speak with him. Jon thinks that Melisandre is beautiful but feels unsettled by the fact that she has red eyes. Jon asks for permission to change first and Melisandre tells him that she and Stannis will be waiting for him on top of the Wall. Jon thinks that the rumors must be true that Melisandre is Stannis's true queen and not the wife who was left behind at Eastwatch.

Melisandre is waiting for Jon at the base of the Wall and they ride up in the cage together. Jon asks her what the king wants of him and Melisandre replies that Stannis wants all that Jon has to give. Jon thinks that Melisandre smells like smoke and blood. Jon asks her if she's cold and she tells him that she's never cold because the Lord's fire lives within her. She invites Jon to touch her and he is able to feel for himself how warm she is. She claims that only death is cold.

Melisandre presents Jon as the "Bastard of Winterfell" and Jon takes a moment to note that Stannis is dressed the way that a man of the Night's Watch would dress with the exception of his cloak and brooch. As Jon takes in Stannis's appearance, he thinks back to a comment that Donal Noye once made about the Baratheon brothers.

Robert was the true steel. Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends. Uneasily, he knelt, wondering why this brittle king had need of him.

Stannis addresses Jon as "Lord Snow" and tells him that he's heard all about him. He's curious to know if Jon really is a skinchanger and Jon admits that he once had a direwolf but hasn't seen him since he climbed the Wall near Greyguard. Jon goes on to tell Stannis that it was Qhorin Halfhand who commanded him to join the wildlings and says that he never turned his cloak. He admits to breaking his vows with Ygritte.

Jon is shocked when Stannis tells him that he believes his side of the story. Stannis says that he knows Janos Slynt from King's Landing and says that he knew Ned Stark as well. Stannis says that while he and Ned weren't friends, he knew Ned to be an honest man.

Stannis reveals that he knows that Jon was the one who gave Sam the dagger that ended up killing the Other. Stannis goes on to talk about how Jon held the gate at the Wall and Jon gives credit to Donal Noye who died during the fighting. Stannis mentions that Noye is the one who made him his first sword. Noye also made Robbert his first warhammer. Stannis feels that if Donal Noye had lived that he would have made a better Lord Commander than any of the current candidates.

Jon tells Stannis that Cotter Pyke, Denys Mallister, and Othell Yarwyck are all good and capable men. He also says that Mormont trusted them, but Stannis feels that Mormont trusted too easily and that's why he died the way he did.

Stannis says that he hasn't forgotten that Jon was responsible for bringing him the horn in addition to capturing Mance's wife and son. Jon clarifies that Mance's wife died in childbirth and that the woman he captured is Dalla's sister Val. Once the conversation turns to Val, Jon asks for permission for Val to be able to visit Mance so that Mance can have the opportunity to see his son. Stannis wants to know why Jon is interested in doing a kindness to Mance when all of his brothers want Mance to be killed. Jon has no answer to this but asks if the kindness can be done for Val and for Dalla's memory. Stannis asks Jon if he's fond of Val and Jon admits that he barely knows her. Stannis says that he's heard that Val is good looking and Jon acknowledges that she's very pretty.

Stannis talks about how treacherous beauty is and uses Cersei Lannister as an example. He's certain that Cersei killed Robert in addition to killing Ned and Jon Arryn.

Stannis asks if there's any honor in the wildlings and asks the same question about Mance. Jon says that the wildlings have their own sort of honor and acknowledges that he thinks Mance is honorable as well. When Stannis asks if Rattleshirt has any honor and Jon says if he does then he's doing an awfully good job of hiding it. Stannis asks about Tormund and Jon says that Tormund is the kind of man who can either be a great friend or a terrible enemy.

The talk turns to Jon's family and Stannis talks about how Robb was a rebel and a traitor who attempted to steal half of his kingdom. Stannis asks Jon about himself and Jon doesn't really know how to reply. He tells Stannis that he's a man of the Night's Watch and reminds Stannis that he's no lord when Stannis again addresses him as Lord Snow. Stannis asks Jon why he thinks he's come all of this way to the Wall and Jon replies that he hopes that Stannis came to help them and questions why it took him so long to get there.

Surprisingly, Stannis smiled at that. “You’re bold enough to be a Stark. Yes, I should have come sooner. If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all. Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.” Stannis pointed north. “There is where I’ll find the foe that I was born to fight.”

Melisandre says that the name of this foe must never be spoken. She refers to this foe as the "God of Night and Terror" and basically says that the Others all work for him. Stannis talks about how Jon was able to kill one of the Others and says that he wants Jon to join him in the great fight against them. Jon tells Stannis that his sword is pledged to the Night's Watch and this makes Stannis start grinding his teeth in irritation. He tells Jon that he needs more than his sword and makes it clear that he wants to have the north on his side.

Jon talks about how Robb was King in the North and Stannis corrects Jon and says that Robb was the rightful Lord of Winterfell. He goes on to say that if Robb hadn't gone and crowned himself that he might still be alive today. Jon feels all of the sympathy that he might have had for Stannis go away once Stannis starts criticizing Robb. Jon says that he loved his brother and Stannis admits that he loved his brother Robert just as Jon loved Robb. Stannis feels that in order to deal with people like Roose Bolton and the presence of ironborn that the north will need a new Lord of Winterfell who will be loyal to him.

Jon is stunned when he realizes that Stannis wants to make him Lord of Winterfell and reminds the king that he's a Snow and not a Stark. Melisandre tells Jon that Stannis can easily legitimize him and Jon thinks about how past kings have legitimized various bastards.

Jon talks about how he swore a vow to the Night's Watch in front of a heart tree and Melisandre basically says that his vow is meaningless since R'hllor is supposedly the only true god. She goes on to tell Jon to burn the weirwoods so that he can embrace the Lord of Light. She urges him to accept Winterfell as a gift from R'hllor.

When Jon had been very young, too young to understand what it meant to be a bastard, he used to dream that one day Winterfell might be his. Later, when he was older, he had been ashamed of those dreams. Winterfell would go to Robb and then his sons, or to Bran or Rickon should Robb die childless. And after them came Sansa and Arya. Even to dream otherwise seemed disloyal, as if he were betraying them in his heart, wishing for their deaths. I never wanted this, he thought as he stood before the blue-eyed king and the red woman. I loved Robb, loved an of them... I never wanted any harm to come to any of them, but it did. And now there’s only me. All he had to do was say the word, and he would be Jon Stark, and nevermore a Snow. All he had to do was pledge this king his fealty, and Winterfell was his. All he had to do... ... was forswear his vows again.

Stannis lets Jon know that his plan is to allow the wildlings to go through the Wall provided that they swear fealty to him, agree to obey the King's laws, and accept the Lord of Light as their god. Stannis thinks that it's better for them to unite with the wildlings so that they're all stronger when they ultimately have to face the Others. Jon agrees that it's a better choice to have the wildlings on their side and thinks about how Ned and Benjen used to talk about how it would be a good idea to resettle the Gift.

Stannis is pleased that Jon agrees with him about uniting with the wildlings and tells Jon that part of the price for him becoming Lord of Winterfell will be to marry the 'wildling princess' Val. Jon says that Val probably won't be interested in marrying him unless he carries her off at sword point and Stannis wants to know if this is Jon's way of refusing his offer.

Jon realizes that Winterfell isn't something that he should lightly refuse and asks for time to consider.

“As you wish. But consider quickly. I am not a patient man, as your black brothers are about to discover.” Stannis put a thin, fleshless hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Say nothing of what we’ve discussed here today. To anyone. But when you return, you need only bend your knee, lay your sword at my feet, and pledge yourself to my service, and you shall rise again as Jon Stark, the Lord of Winterfell.”

Lady S. · October 24, 2017

Quote

If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all.

Do we think GRRM knew what he was doing here or was it just an unintentionally dirty line?

Man, Stan and Mel really know how to sell this offer what with all the reminders that Robb was a rebel and usurper, mocking the old gods and telling Jon to burn the godswood once he takes Winterfell. I mean, being lord of Winterfell is a great prize which means a lot to Jon, but so do his brother's memory, his father's gods, and the vows he swore to the NW.

I wonder how old Jon was by the time he understood "what it meant to be a bastard". It shows how much Jon was raised like a Stark, like Robb that he couldn't sense the full difference between them when he was little. Kids aren't born understanding inheritance but a kid treated as treated as lesser by his father would probably internalize a big difference as the outcast. There were things I think Ned could have done better, but there's no denying he really did love Jon.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Lady S.

John Potts · October 25, 2017

12 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Quote

If not for my Hand, I might not have come at all.

Do we think GRRM knew what he was doing here or was it just an unintentionally dirty line?

I bet he was thinking about Mel the whole time! But I'd guess that was inadvertent.

There's an odd juxtaposition of Stannis expecting absolute rigid adherence to "the rules" yet not just understanding why Jon broke his vows to run off with the Wildings but expecting him to break them again to become Lord of Winterfell. And wouldn't Sansa normally inherit ahead of a legitimised bastard in any case? Though I suspect the answer there might be, "It depends which is more convenient for the King dong the legitimising" (and obviously Stannis doesn't have Sansa).

Lady S. · October 25, 2017

10 hours ago, John Potts said:

There's an odd juxtaposition of Stannis expecting absolute rigid adherence to "the rules" yet not just understanding why Jon broke his vows to run off with the Wildings but expecting him to break them again to become Lord of Winterfell. And wouldn't Sansa normally inherit ahead of a legitimised bastard in any case? Though I suspect the answer there might be, "It depends which is more convenient for the King dong the legitimising" (and obviously Stannis doesn't have Sansa).

Yeah, it's a sign that Stannis does value pragmatism over the rules sometimes when he, Mr. "we must all do our duty", so easily disregards Jon's duty to the NW. I think GRRM has confirmed there are no hard and fast rules about the line of succession with a legitimized bastard in the mix. Hence the Blackfyre Rebellions and Catelyn's paranoia. I'd think it's a rare enough occurrence that it usually happens for the express purpose of making a new male heir in the absence of an older male son. (With the exception of Aegon the Unworthy, who just legitimized all his bastards to fuck with Daeron II.) I doubt any lords get a royal decree to legitimize their bastards purely for sentimental reasons. In any case, Sansa is missing with nobody having any clue how to find her while Jon is right there, and Stannis is really focused on practical matters and the urgency of the Long Night.

I must say Stannis is making some effort at persuasion, switching to reverse psychology at Jon's first sign of hesitance doubting, a bastard could be up to the job like Ned or Robb would be. Then there's putting his hand at Jon's shoulder at the end as he reminds Jon to think it over. That's striking because Stannis is far from a touchy-feely guy and in fact I don't recall really touching anyone onpage before, let alone someone he's just met, so that had to be an intentional gesture. Reverse psychology plus an uncharacteristic attempt at warmth makes for a bit of a conflicting message though, and of course Stannis just has to insist on Ned never being his friend and Robb being a usurper before he makes his offer, but he's really new to making any effort in convincing someone to join him.

It's almost as if Jon can sense Stan's raging middle child syndrome when he's confused about what the king needs from him and wonders if he wants him to tell him he loves him. Stannis really doesn't get fraternal love beyond the perfunctory, which it seems he's never really experienced, when he brushes off Jon's declared love for Robb, saying he loved his brothers too. His brothers, Robert, who Stannis said was never fond of him nor the other way around, and Renly, who he's said was a fool who earned his death. I'd say there were more difference between Stan and Robert than Jon and Robb, though stubborn pride was a common trait for all three Baratheon bros. I'm pretty sure Robert made the same warning that "I am not a patient man" when he offered the Handship to Ned, and gotta be amused by Stannis describing Mance as stubborn and prideful. Takes one to know one, I guess. It's a shame all of the conversations between those two kings happened offscreen in the books.

It was cool to know that Mel somehow smells of fire all the time and that she made Orell's eagle spontaneously combust.

Lastly, I'd forgotten that "or I'll ring your head like a bell" was straight from the books. The show just replaced Satin with stupid Olly in this particular scene.

YaddaYadda · October 26, 2017

I have such a soft spot for Satin that I'm glad the show didn't use him.

I'm glad we get to see Stannis through Jon's lense. Jon doesn't know him and we get to see him through someone who is getting to know him, but isn't always sure what to make of him. Stannis actually has a pretty wicked sense of humor.

On 10/24/2017 at 6:44 PM, Avaleigh said:

“As you wish. But consider quickly. I am not a patient man, as your black brothers are about to discover.” Stannis put a thin, fleshless hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Say nothing of what we’ve discussed here today. To anyone. But when you return, you need only bend your knee, lay your sword at my feet, and pledge yourself to my service, and you shall rise again as Jon Stark, the Lord of Winterfell.”

This part always makes me kind of emotional. And maybe it's me, but I found that it seemed more designed to show Jon's loyalty towards the old gods than anything else.

benteen · October 26, 2017

Excellent post. I liked the interaction between Jon and Stannis a great deal here and Stannis shows some strengths as a leader here. I remember little things that made me laugh too, like Stannis's insistence on calling Val the wildling princess despite Jon saying that wasn't true.

Satin is a good minor character.

Stannis's insistence on the North embracing the Lord of Light...THIS isn't good leadership on him. I've said in the past that Robb and Stannis would have been a great team but if he insisted on pushing the Lord of Light at the North, the North would have pushed back REALLY hard.

Avaleigh · November 2, 2017

Tyrion XI

Tyrion thinks that guards are coming to execute him when he hears noises outside of his cell. When the door to his cell begins to open, he finds himself wishing that he had some sort of weapon and contents himself with the fact that he'll still be able to bite and kick. He tells himself that at least he'll be able to die with the taste of blood in his mouth.

Tyrion can hardly breathe when he realizes that it's Jaime and Jaime comments that Tyrion's cell is even worse than the cell Jaime was forced to occupy at Riverrun. Tyrion laughs about how the Lannister boys have become Handless and Noseless, and Jaime says that Tyrion's scar is impressive. Jaime says that he heard that Tyrion almost burned the city down and Tyrion replies that he only burned the river.

Jaime tells Tyrion that he's rescuing him and advises Tyrion to change his name since Cersei will likely send men after him to kill him. Tyrion comments that he doubts a new name will save him in the event he's ever captured.

Tyrion thanks Jaime for saving his life and Jaime admits that it's because he owes Tyrion a debt. Tyrion presses Jaime for an explanation and Jaime admits to his brother that he lied about Tysha and that she really was a crofter's daughter just as she had appeared. Jaime says that he had no idea that their father would give Tysha over to a barracks full of guards and asks Tyrion to believe him.

Once Tyrion takes in this information, he slaps Jaime in the face with all of his strength so that Jaime ends up falling on the floor. Jaime acknowledges that the slap was well earned.

"Oh, you've earned more than that, Jaime. You and my sweet sister and our loving father, yes, I can't begin to tell you what you've earned. But you'll have it, that I swear to you. A Lannister always pays his debts."

Jaime unlocks the gate and Tyrion says that he'll find Varys on his own. Jaime says that he gave Tyrion the truth and asks for the truth in return. He asks if Tyrion killed Joffrey and Tyrion feels like the question is a knife in the gut. He says that Joffrey would have been even worse than Aerys and says that Joffrey was responsible for the attack on Bran. Jaime admits that he suspected as much and Tyrion replies that 'a son takes after his father.'

Jaime presses Tyrion about whether or not he killed Joffrey and Tyrion responds by telling Jaime that he's a blind and crippled fool. He says that Cersei has been sleeping with their cousin Lancel and even with Osmund Kettleblack. Tyrion goes on to claim that he did indeed kill Joffrey and smiles after he says this. Jaime has no reply after Tyrion's outburst and walks away without another word.

Tyrion finds Varys and tells him that he sent for him during his trial. Varys said that Cersei had him watched day and night so there was no way that he would have been able to be of assistance to him. Tyrion asks where Sansa is and Varys says that both Sansa and Dontos have been MIA since Joffrey's murder.

As they travel through the tunnels, they get to a spot where Tyrion recognizes that they must be below the Tower of the Hand. Tyrion asks Varys for directions and decides that he's going to climb into his father's bedchamber.

Once Tyrion makes the climb, he able to hear his father's guards talking about how sweet it would be to be able to have sex with Shae. The conversation turns to Tyrion's execution and the guys make bets as to whether or not Tyrion will breakdown and cry before he's executed.

Once Tyrion makes it inside of the bedchamber he sees Shae in his father's bed wearing nothing but the chain of the Hand. Tears fill her eyes as she sees Tyrion and she swears to him that she didn't mean any of the things that she said about him during the trial. Tyrion asked Shae if she ever liked it when he touched her and she tells him that she liked it more than anything in the world. She calls him her 'giant of Lannister' and Tyrion thinks to himself that this is the worst thing she could have possibly said. He strangles her with the chain of the Hand.

After he kills Shae, he grabs his father's dagger then takes a crossbow from off of the wall. He finds his father in the privy and gives him a little bow in greeting. Tywin doesn't seem afraid and asks Tyrion who released him from his cell. When Tyrion doesn't answer, Tywin decides that it must have been Varys and says that he'll have the eunuch's head for this.

Tywin tells Tyrion that the plan is to have him sent to the Wall and tells his son to put down the crossbow so that they can discuss what's going to happen. Tyrion says that the Wall is too cold and that he's had enough coldness from his father for a lifetime. He tells Tywin that he only wants to know what became of Tysha.

Tywin can't recall Tysha by name and when he's reminded that Tysha was Tyrion's first wife, he refers to Tysha as a whore. Tyrion says that if Tywin says the word whore again, he'll kill him. Tywin doesn't think that Tyrion has the courage.

Tyrion asks Tywin to remember what he ended up doing with Tysha and asks his father if he ended up having her killed. Tywin says that there was no need to kill Tysha once she'd learned her place and says that the steward likely sent her on her way. Tyrion asks where the steward would have sent her and Tywin replies, "Wherever whores go."

Tyrion shoots Tywin with the crossbow and Tywin is shocked at what Tyrion has done. Tywin tells Tyrion that he isn't his son.

"Now that's where you're wrong, Father. Why, I believe I'm you writ small. Do me a kindness now and die quickly. I have a ship to catch."

Avaleigh · November 3, 2017

Tywin's death is awesome but this chapter is sad all around. Jaime really is sick of the lies as he said in the ladt chapter. He didn't have to mention his involvment with what happened to Tysha but it's like he wants to unburden himself once and for all even if it means risking his relationship with his brother. You can feel the love in the Jaime/Tyrion relationship and it was sweet to see Jaime kneel down so that he could kiss Tyrion on both cheeks. Even before they fall out, they know there's a large chance that they'll never see each other again.

I also like how easy they are around each other even in extraordinary circumstances. They can joke with each other and find something to laugh about. Despite Cersei's long term hatred of and hostility towards Jaime, she's never been able to turn Jaime against Tyrion and now Tyrion is handing Jaime two (maybe even three) reasons to take Cersei's side against him.

I didn't remember book Tyrion crying over killing Shae. I thought that was a show thing.

While Varys is clearly encouraging Tyrion to go and find Tywin, he couldn't have known that Jaime would stir up Tyrion's rage over what happened to Tysha. What if Tyrion hadn't sought revenge on his father? Would that have screwed up Varys's longterm plans? Interesting that Tywin was already prepared to execute Varys simply based on his suspicions. It's like he was aching for a reason to finally rid himself of the spider.

benteen · November 3, 2017

An awesome chapter indeed as Tywin finally gets what he deserved. It's a definite highpoint but I feel that the War of the Five Kings and the eventual arrival of Dany (whenever that's going to be) loses a lot with the death of Tywin. That's how large a shadow he casts over events.

The Tyrion and Jaime scenes are strong but sad. I remember wondering before this chapter why the jell Jaime hadn't been to visit Tyrion yet.

glowbug · November 3, 2017

I love almost everything about this chapter except the whole "Tysha really loved Tyrion" reveal. It always felt inorganic to me and it's one of the few changes the show made that I was happy with, although taking away Tyrion's anger towards Jaime does make his joining Dany's team nonsensical since there are still Lannisters he actually likes. The show could have had the brothers part on bad terms but use some other excuse. The reveal feels like a retcon although GRRM may have planned it from the beginning. Either way, I don't like it.

Taking away the reason for their falling out, I did like the interraction between the brothers. I like how Jaime has always cared about Tyrion and that they had such a strong relationship despite Cersei's hatred of Tyrion, and Tywin's for that matter. It just shows that Jaime is cut from a different cloth than either his father or sister. Despite his wrongdoings, of which there are many, he is a decent person. I was heartbroken at the falling out between Jaime and Tyrion and I hope GRRM brings them back together by the end (if he ever writes anymore of the series, which is doubtful). Given how season 7 of the show ended (Tyrion with Dany heading north and Jaime presumably heading north to join with Jon/Dany against the White Walkers) I think they'll eventually end up on the same side in the hypothetical books too

Tywin's death was also super satisfying. He was a good villain and without him as an antagonist the books suffer lot, but that doesn't mean I wanted him dead any less. Charles Dance made him somewhat likable but taking away the actor he's really not likable at all even though I can appreciate him as a villain. I wish GRRM would have had more Tywin type villains instead of Ramsay/The Mountain/Euron type villains. Cersei is more like Tywin in that she doesn't derive pleasure from pain, she's just willing to do anything to achieve her goals, but she's so stupid she's really not like him at all.

I love how Tyrion, the son Tywin blindly hated, is the most like him. The dynamic between the core Lannisters is facinating, particularly between the Lannister men. Everything related to Cersei became less interesting once I read her POV but at this point in the story her relationships with the men in her family are still interesting. It's a tragedy what happens to Tyrion's storyline and character once he leaves Westeros and gets sucked into the Essos plot of doom. Arya and Tyrion both went from being two of my favorite POVs to two of the least interesting in the next two books.

Lady S. · November 4, 2017

Hoo boy, tbh, I have not really been looking forward to this chapter, both because it marks a real turning point for Tyrion's PoV and because there is just so much to discuss with all this heavy shit going down. (My laptop needs a new battery and keeps getting unplugged and shutting off every few moments, so I know it'll take me several tries just to get this post out. Thank the gods this forum saves drafts.)

Starting with Tyrion/Jaime. This is only the second scene we have of them in the books, but we can really feel the weight of the bond between them. I love the handless and noseless banter and Tyrion saying he got injured because he had to fight a battle without his big brother to protect him. Then it all goes to shit with the goodbyes.

Jaime's reveal seems a clear case of confessing to something to make oneself feel better by relieving a guilty burden rather than for the sake of the person being apologized to. There's no reason he even needed to mention "a debt" being repaid. Loving his brother should have been enough reason to not let Cersei/Tywin kill him. Not everything has to be a matter of Lannister debts. Of course Tyrion must know whatever Jaime could be referring to since as far as he knows Jaime is the only one who's never truly hurt him. It's always struck me that Jaime has no idea Tyrion was forced to take part in the gang rape, because Tyrion leaves that part unsaid and I can't imagine Jaime would have thought it was a good idea to ever tell him the truth if he understood the full story. It's interesting that Tywin may have made an effort to keep that detail secret from Jaime, and I don't think he would have ever ordered a Jaime-sized child to participate in the punishment of a lowborn lover. Then Jaime says he supposes he deserves to be hit but he has to retaliate by demanding truth in return. I doubt he even thought of asking before. It's not like Joffrey's murder was a burning question for him until then. Hell, he just sent Brienne to rescue Sansa while believing she was guilty. He'd believed the whole time that Tyrion publicly poisoning Joffrey like that made little sense and he was no kinslayer, even with motive aplenty, and none of that's changed. He doesn't want to feel like he's still in Tyrion's debt, the worse brother. It's notable that Tyrion being accused of this by Jaime wounds him as much as Jaime's lie, so he obliges with a confession of his own, throwing in a pinch of truth about Cersei for good measure. Even so, he has the urge to run after Jaime and make things right so I don't think this is a final break either.

I understand why the show cut the Tysha reveal because with Tyrion/Shae having a deeper relationship, it wouldn't feel right to have the focus be on a backstory figure the audience has no such connection to even if they do remember her. I really disagree though that it wasn't planned in the books. First of all, the original story doesn't make much sense to me from Jaime's PoV, arranging an elaborate ruse to help Tyrion get laid because 13 was just too old to be a virgin. Even in Westeros, 13yos aren't men, and while some may have sex that young and the twins had some sort of sex play from an early age, I don't think Jaime would think there's anything wrong with a 13yo not having had any sexual experience yet. Not having any contact with girls, maybe, but still 13 leaves plenty of time for that. Even if Jaime thought Tyrion could use the confidence boost, I think he would have just taken Tyrion to a brothel instead of buying a virgin and paying for fake would-be rapists to chase her and whatnot. That's really not his style. I think that secret was foreshadowed since the first and only other Jaime/Tyrion scene, with the line about how he'd forgive Jaime almost anything. And thematically, it makes perfect sense that Tywin the whore-fucking hypocrite lied to Tyrion in this formative experience. He's been shaming Tyrion for half his life about whores when he started that whole habit by making Tyrion believe he could only have sex if it was paid for. Besides, I wouldn't say Tysha really loved Tyrion. They knew each other for a matter of weeks and were two inexperienced kids playing house, not much of a marriage. At the least though, she probably genuinely liked him and enjoyed his company, which is a big deal for Tyrion because he's never even had that with another woman, and imo is unlikely to find time and peace for a real romantic relationship in the remaining books.

I'll have more thoughts later about Varys, Shae, and Tywin's murder.

benteen · November 4, 2017

I had forgotten it's revealed that Tywin loved having sex with whores. Giving Shae his Hand of the King necklace to wear revealed a real "kinky" side there.

I imagine Tyrion is not going to see Tysha ever again in the books, otherwise she would have been brought up again on the show.

YaddaYadda · November 7, 2017

I remember when I read this chapter the first time, I felt like Jaime was going through some kind of 12 step program and that he was making amends.

We don't what Joanna Lannister was like, but I figure that since Cersei and Tyrion take more after Tywin, then Jaime takes more after his mother. I hope we get more Tyrion/Jaime in the next book.

Speaking of Tywin who had sex with whores (may very well have been the Hand who used the tunnels to go to Chataya's), Tywin had his father's mistress walk through the streets naked. Cersei walked through the streets naked. He brought Vargo Hoat to Westeros knowing exactly what the man was, Jaime lost his sword hand to him. He mistreated dwarfs, he got a dwarf for a son (although this one may have happened after Tyrion's birth). This is not mentioning Tysha's gang rape and the Red Wedding among other things.

This chapter made me wonder the kind of legacy people will remember when it comes to Tywin Lannister.

nodorothyparker · November 8, 2017

On 11/4/2017 at 1:44 AM, Lady S. said:

Jaime's reveal seems a clear case of confessing to something to make oneself feel better by relieving a guilty burden rather than for the sake of the person being apologized to. There's no reason he even needed to mention "a debt" being repaid. Loving his brother should have been enough reason to not let Cersei/Tywin kill him. Not everything has to be a matter of Lannister debts. Of course Tyrion must know whatever Jaime could be referring to since as far as he knows Jaime is the only one who's never truly hurt him. It's always struck me that Jaime has no idea Tyrion was forced to take part in the gang rape, because Tyrion leaves that part unsaid and I can't imagine Jaime would have thought it was a good idea to ever tell him the truth if he understood the full story. It's interesting that Tywin may have made an effort to keep that detail secret from Jaime, and I don't think he would have ever ordered a Jaime-sized child to participate in the punishment of a lowborn lover. Then Jaime says he supposes he deserves to be hit but he has to retaliate by demanding truth in return. I doubt he even thought of asking before. It's not like Joffrey's murder was a burning question for him until then. Hell, he just sent Brienne to rescue Sansa while believing she was guilty. He'd believed the whole time that Tyrion publicly poisoning Joffrey like that made little sense and he was no kinslayer, even with motive aplenty, and none of that's changed. He doesn't want to feel like he's still in Tyrion's debt, the worse brother. It's notable that Tyrion being accused of this by Jaime wounds him as much as Jaime's lie, so he obliges with a confession of his own, throwing in a pinch of truth about Cersei for good measure. Even so, he has the urge to run after Jaime and make things right so I don't think this is a final break either.

Quoting just one paragraph to cosign your entire post. The convoluted nature of the story of Tysha and Jaime's involvement has always strained credulity for me. I can believe a big brother in this society buying his sad little brother a woman or encouraging him toward a lowborn girl who might have been happy enough to accept the lord's deformed son for a few coppers on the sly, but the whole story about chasing off would be rapists just seems like a ridiculous amount of effort toward putting one over on a mostly unloved 13-year-old kid who probably would have been too gratified by any positive attention to question any of it too deeply. But I guess because Jaime's a grayish character with an eventual redemption arc to get to instead of an outright villain like Tywin, there was no other good way to ensnare him in this overwrought backstory than get him to go along with such a needless lie.

I'll agree that even if we're going to insist that it happened this way, there's no real need to be bringing it up now other than to relieve a guilty conscience at what he thinks may be his last opportunity to do so rather than because it really helps Tyrion in any way. One could even raise the question if Jaime hadn't just unloaded that and stirred up all the old resentment about Tywin just then whether Tyrion would have taken Varys's indirect bait to make his detour up the Tower of the Hand when he had to know that time was of an essence escaping.

I hadn't really thought about it much until you mentioned it, but this is only the second real scene between the brothers three full books in, despite how much we know they think about each and how much we're told about how it's maybe the only somewhat functional relationship in the main branch of the Lannister line. Their interaction here before the reveal is lovely with all the wry humor that generally makes the Lannisters my favorite family in the series, minus the continual undermining and plotting against each other, although it makes me wonder again why this is the first time Jaime has come to see him. For all the complaints about season 4, I still prefer the staging of the trial and having Jaime take that time to spend with his brother. Considering that I don't much care for a full book of drunken "where do whores go?" wallowing, I'm okay with the show cutting it and leaving things as they did.

Book Shae is such a different character than show Shae that it's hard to feel much about her or her death, although there's something terribly sad in Tyrion asking her if she ever liked his touch and her lying and still trying to play him even then.

Tywin's death certainly is satisfying, as well as the reality that for all his obsessing about family and legacy he still left everything at loose ends and that he'll be remembered for being killed on the toilet by his dwarf son, but it also narratively left a hole both book and show. He never had to face off against any truly serious threats, he never had to deal with the consequences of how truly wrongheaded he was about anything, and he'll never see the dragons or a possible Targaryen restoration that he was so dismissive of. It'll also be a lot less climactic if Dany ever does get around to showing up to face only chaos and ruin that's happened under Cersei's inept leadership rather than organized capable opposition, but I suppose that's probably putting the cart before the horse.

Avaleigh · November 9, 2017

Samwell V

Stannis is displeased that the men of the Night's Watch have failed to choose a Lord Commander and demands to know how much longer it's going to take for them to come to a decision. Janos does his best to kiss Stannis's ass so that Stannis will tell the men to choose him to be Lord Commander, but Stannis isn't going for it and let's the brothers know about Janos's history of taking bribes when he was commanding the gold cloaks in King's Landing. Janos claims that the stories about him taking bribes are all lies but Stannis makes it clear that he believes the stories and says that if he'd been the one in control during Robert's reign that Janos would have lost his head for his behavior. Stannis also holds Littlefinger responsible for Janos being allowed to go unchecked for so long and guesses that Littlefinger arranged things so that the crown was able to profit from Slynt's corruption.

Stannis informs the men of the Watch that he wants to take over the castles on the Wall which are currently unoccupied. He thinks it's necessary to put his men in the castles if they are going to hold the Wall and says that he's even willing to rebuild the castles that are in serious disrepair. Stannis also wants the men to give him the Gift and says that he'll make better use of it than the Night's Watch has. Stannis wants the brothers to make a list for him that details the present state of each of the unoccupied castles to see what will be required to have them fully restored. He wants all of the castles to be garrisoned within the year and also requests that each castle on the Wall have a nightfire burning before its gate.

The men seem uneasy about the nightfire request and Melisandre says that they'll need more than swords to hold the darkness back. Maester Aemon understands that Melisandre is referring to the war for the dawn and asks her about the whereabouts of the prince who was promised. Melisandre says that Stannis is the prince who was promised but her words on this subject make Stannis visibly uncomfortable.

Stannis orders everyone to leave except for Sam, Maester Aemon, and Melisandre. Sam wonders what Stannis wants of him and Stannis turns the conversation to Sam's killing of one of the Others. Stannis also mentions how Randyll Tarly once defeated Robert in battle and says that he wouldn't have expected Randyll to be the father of a son like Sam. He mentions that Sam would have made a useful hostage were he not a man of the Night's Watch.

Stannis asks about the obsidian dagger that Sam used to kill the Other and says that there's lots of obsidian to be had on Dragonstone. He's given orders to have the dragonglass mined and hopes that they'll be able to get enough of it to arm themselves against the Others. Sam lets Stannis and Melisandre know that the dragonglass isn't going to be able to help them with fighting the wights.

Stannis says that he heard that Sam and Gilly were able to pass through the Wall via a gate. Sam says that it was the Black Gate at the Nightfort and Stannis decides that he wants Sam to show him this gate. He also says that he's going to make the Nightfort his official seat while he fights the war since it's the largest and oldest of the castles on the Wall. Sam wonders to himself if the gate will open for Stannis since Stannis isn't a man of the Night's Watch.

Maester Aemon asks to see Lightbringer and says that Sam will be his eyes. Sam confirms that the sword seems glow as of it were on fire, but says that there aren't any flames. Sam notes that the room seems to grow very dark once Stannis sheathes the sword. After Sam and Aemon leave, Aemon comments that he felt no heat from the sword.

Sam asks Aemon if he can use his influence to help the Watch come to a decision on who the next Lord Commander will be, but Aemon says that it wouldn't be appropriate for him to favor one candidate over another. Sam wonders if he should try to influence the vote himself and this makes Aemon smile.

Sam decides that he's going to try to do something and goes to see Cotter Pyke and Denys Mallister separately. Both men seem to accept the fact that they aren't likely to win but neither is willing to lend his support to the other. Sam asks them both if they'd be willing to accept a candidate who isn't Janos Slynt and when they agree that they'd be willing to step aside for the right candidate, Sam gives the men reasons for why Jon should be that candidate. Sam lies to Pyke and says that Stannis is going to force the men to choose Mallister and then pulls the same trick on Mallister by saying that Stannis is going to support Pyke. Pyke likes the idea that Jon is a bastard and thinks that will piss off Mallister. Mallister likes the idea that Jon was raise in a castle and is better educated than Pyke who can't even read. By the end of the night, both men are willing to support Jon as the next Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

benteen · November 13, 2017

I enjoyed this chapter a great deal, with Sam politicking and us getting to know the other Night's Watch leaders. Love Stannis telling Slynt he would have lost his head if he had been in character and Robert should have listened to him and Arryn on that one. Liked Stannis knowing who Aemon is (the two of them are actually related as well although I don't think that gets brought up) and Aemon realizing what he does about Lightbringer. Stannis considering using Sam as a hostage is slimy.

YaddaYadda · November 14, 2017

On 11/13/2017 at 8:59 AM, benteen said:

Stannis considering using Sam as a hostage is slimy

Randyll Tarly: A son with the NW? I don't know this Sam you speak of.

John Potts · November 14, 2017

The whole Commander election is about my favourite section of the book (I like the Kingsmoot bit, too - at least this time the "right" candidate wins). It's obvious that these guys aren't used to the concept of elections as Sam's basic bit of spin would be immediately be seen through - but that's what you get for operating in a world where elections are so rare.

Gotta love Stannis for his, "Had I been King, I'd have executed you!". And good job he started mining dragonglass - that sounds like Chekov's Stockpile to me!

Constantinople · November 20, 2017

On 11/1/2017 at 10:23 PM, Avaleigh said:

Tyrion asks Tywin to remember what he ended up doing with Tysha and asks his father if he ended up having her killed. Tywin says that there was no need to kill Tysha once she'd learned her place and says that the steward likely sent her on her way. Tyrion asks where the steward would have sent her and Tywin replies, "Wherever whores go."

Ugh.

Knowing what I know now, I'd be willing to kill Tyrion to keep from ever having to read that phrase again.

Avaleigh · November 21, 2017

Jon XII

Jon continues to think about the offer that Stannis has made him. He's had little sleep and has decided to spar in the yard with Iron Emmett. Emmett makes Jon's head ring and it brings Jon back to the times when he would train with Robb at Winterfell. Jon thinks about how he and Robb would think of themselves as mighty heroes when they fought. Robb would sometimes pretend to be Florian the Fool or the Young Dragon and Jon would pretend to be Prince Aemon the Dragonknight or Ser Ryam Redwyne.

Jon remembers how he once called being the Lord of Winterfell and how Robb responded by telling him that he could never be Lord of Winterfell even though Jon had called Lord of Winterfell hundreds of times before when they'd played. Robb tells Jon that Catelyn has told him that Jon will never be Lord of Winterfell. Jon thought that he'd forgotten all about this memory.

The next thing Jon knows, two of his brothers have to pull him away from Emmett and one of the men shouts at Jon to remind him that he's disarmed Emmett and that the guy is down on the ground in a daze. Emmett asks Jon if there was some part of the word yield that he didn't understand and comments that he now knows how Qhorin Halfhand must have felt.

Jon retreats to the armory and wonders why he feels so angry. He thinks about how he could be the Lord of Winterfell and how he could be his father's heir.

Quote

It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. With her deep blue eyes and hard cold mouth, she looked a bit like Stannis. Iron, he thought but brittle. She was looking at him the way she used to look at him at Winterfell, whenever he had bested Robb at swords or sums or most anything. Who are you? that look had always seemed to say. This is not your place. Why are you here?

Jon goes to the bathhouse and thinks about how Theon left Winterfell burned and broken. He considers how he might be able to restore it and feels that his father and Robb would never have wanted Winterfell to be left in ruins.

Jon struggles with the idea of his bastard status and how he'd have destroy the weirwood at the heart of Winterfell in order to satisfy Melisandre and Stannis. Jon decides that he doesn't have the right and thinks about how Winterfell belongs to the old gods.

While Jon is in the bathhouse he hears the voices of Thorne, Yarwyck and Marsh discussing the fact that Tywin Lannister is in favor of Slynt becoming Lord Commander. Marsh talks about how Stannis doesn't seem to care for Slynt but Thorne feels that if they listen to what Stannis wants them to do then they'll end up becoming his bannermen in all but name. Thorne also worries that they'll end up angering Tywin if they don't choose Slynt. Thorne thinks that Tywin will ultimately defeat Stannis and reminds the men that Stannis has already been beaten once during the Battle of the Blackwater.

The men suddenly notice that Jon is there and Thorne seems angry that they've been overheard. Thorne asks Jon what he's doing there and Jon responds that he was bathing. He climbs out of the bath, dresses, and tells the men that he won't spoil their plotting.

Jon thinks about what he overheard and feels that Yarwyck is likely going to be persuaded to vote for Slynt. He asks himself what it is he really wants in life and thinks about what other people want for him. Ygritte wanted him to be a wildling and Stannis wants him to be Lord of Winterfell.

Jon considers all of the good things that could happen if he accepts Stannis's offer to become Lord of Winterfell. He could marry Val and they could have children. He could have a son named Robb and he and Val could raise Mance's son as well. He thinks that Gilly and her son could stay at Winterfell instead of Sam having to lie in order for them to be taken in at Horn Hill. He thinks about how Gilly would be close enough so that Sam could visit her and how her son and Mance's son could grow up to be brothers. Jon realizes that he wants this and feels guilty when he admits to himself that he's probably always wanted it.

Jon suddenly feels hungry like he wants to hunt and kill a deer. His mouth begins to water and it takes him awhile before he realizes that he feels the presence of Ghost. Ghost soon comes running out of the woods and he and Jon are finally reunited. Jon tells his direwolf that he thought he'd died and tells him about how he was unable to feel his presence even in his dreams. He wonders where Ghost has been all of this time and thinks back to the day when he and his siblings first found the direwolf pups. He thinks about how Ghost belongs to the old gods and decides that he knows what his answer will be to Stannis's proposal.

Jon walks with Ghost and heads inside to have supper with the other men. Jon is surprised when he sees that there's no food and realizes that the men are arguing about something. Nobody seems to realize that he's entered the room. Slynt is ranting and raving about turncloaks and treason and a bunch of the men are on their feet. There's lots of shouting and one man from Eastwatch keeps banging his fist on the table in an effort to get the men to be quiet.

Pyp finally notices Jon and loudly whistles to get everyone's attention. The room goes quiet as Jon walks toward the tables and Thorne finally breaks the silence by calling Jon a turncloak in front of everyone. Slynt sees Ghost and says that Ghost is responsible for killing Qhorin. Slynt talks about how Jon is a warg and says that Jon isn't fit to be their leader.

Jon wants to know what's going on and Maester Aemon replies that Jon's name has been put into consideration for Lord Commander. Jon briefly thinks it's some sort of elaborate joke.

Slynt says that Jon and Mance should be hanged together and inisists that Jon is a traitor. Slynt says that he won't stand for Jon being made Lord Commander and Pyke reminds Slynt that he's wearing a black cloak now and says that he's no longer in King's Landing where the gold cloaks would do whatever it is that he told them to do.

Thorne tells the men that they need to stop arguing and get to voting. Stannis's men aren't going to let them eat or leave until they finally make a decision so he says that they need to figure it out even if it takes them all night. Thorne goes on to say that before the men cast their tokens, they should listen to what their brother Yarwyck has to say.

Yarwyck tells the men that he's pulling his name from consideration. He says that he was going to say that the men who were planning to vote for him should cast their votes for Lord Janos instead but admits that he doesn't recall why he ever thought it would be a good idea to support Slynt. He says that choosing Slynt would basically be like "kicking King Stannis in the mouth" and he doesn't see how that move would do the men of the Watch any good. He suggests that having Jon as Lord Commander might be a better choice. He points out that Jon has been on the Wall longer, he's Benjen Stark's nephew, and he served as Mormont's squire.

Janos looks furious and Thorne grows pale after Yarwyck says what he has to say. The men call for the kettle to be brought forth so that they can cast their votes. When the lid of the kettle is taken off, Mormont's raven flies out and settles on Jon's shoulder as it says the word "snow" over and over again. Thorne tries to play this off by saying that all of the ravens say the word snow so this isn't necessarily Mormont's raven, but then the bird starts saying other words like "corn" and "kettle".

When the count is done, Jon has the votes and the men begin to congratulate him. Emmett hopes that he and Jon will still be able to train in the yard and Hobb wants to know if Jon will continue to eat with the men. Bowen Marsh tells Jon that he'll be happy to remain Lord Steward if Jon still wants him in the position. Cotter Pyke tells Jon that if he ends up fucking everything up he's going to rip out his liver so that he can eat it raw.

Ser Denys Malllister is more courteous with his words than Pyke is.

Quote

"It was a hard thing young Samwell asked of me," the old knight confessed. "When Lord Qorgyle was chosen, I told myself, 'No matter, he has been longer on the Wall than you have, your time will come.' When it was Lord Mormont, I thought, 'He is strong and fierce, but he is old, your time may yet come.' But you are half a boy, Lord Snow, and now I must return to the Shadow Tower knowing that my time will never come." He smiled a tired smile. "Do not make me die regretful. Your uncle was a great man. Your lord father and his father as well. I shall expect full as much of you.

The men let Stannis's men know that they've chosen a Commander and they're finally allowed to have their supper.

Jon walks off with Ghost and Mormont's raven while his friends trail behind him. Grenn and Pyp give Sam the credit for getting Jon elected and they want to know how he was able to make Mormont's raven fly to Jon. Sam says that he had nothing to do with making the raven fly to Jon and admits that he almost pissed himself when the bird flew out of the kettle. Jon laughs at this and tells his friends that they're a bunch of mad fools.

Pyp encourages Jon to drink some wine and tells Jon that he's going to need it. Jon has a swallow of wine and thinks about how he'll now have to face Stannis.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Avaleigh

WearyTraveler · November 22, 2017

This is one of my favorite Jon episodes of the entire series. Then again, I'm a sucker for internal conflict and daddy issues, so, that's no surprise.

I love how Jon considers every aspect of his current circumstances and his honesty with himself, admitting, perhaps for the very first time ever, that what he really wanted in life is to be Ned's son, carry the legacy, and have a family. Apart from being honest, it's interesting that he doesn't want any of this out of greed or because he wants power. He's one of the few characters whose intentions and desires are devoid of the moral conflicts that we as readers see in people like the Lannisters, the Tyrells, and many of the other ruling families.

I also liked how he was always better than Robb at everything a Lord is supposed to be, and yet he had to resign himself to being treated as a lesser person because of his birth, which was a circumstance of which he had no control. It's also probably a clue that he is Rhaegar's son, as we have read many times about how the royal prince was the best at everything he did. And boy, did Catelyn do a number on him! Here he is thinking about his "father" and his "siblings", and all he can see is her face, fueling his guilt.

We also see his sarcastic, snippy side, which I enjoy very much, when he tells Slynt and company he will not interfere with their plotting. LOL!

Upon first read, I think I actually squealed with joy and sighed with relief, at the same time (don't ask me how), when Ghost came back. I was so worried for him! And I loved that Ghost was the clincher on Jon's decision. In a previous chapter (when the characters are discussing Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, IIRC), someone says that Sansa is lost because she has lost her wolf, and here we have Ghost's return helping to ground Jon into doing the right thing, according to the values with which he was raised. It really is a pity that the show didn't do more to portray the special relationship between the Starks and their wolves.

I love his election as Lord Commander and look at the final scene of Jon and his friends enjoying the victory as bittersweet. Knowing what comes next, I can't help but feel that this is the last time Jon gets to be "the boy" that Maester Aemon tells him he has to kill in order to become "the man".

Edited November 22, 2017 by WearyTraveler

benteen · November 22, 2017

I admit, I was hoping Jon would take the Lord of Winterfell role (without burning down the tree). But this was still an awesome chapter. Jon was the visionary leader the Night's Watch needed but still did a lot of things wrong and didn't learn from the lessons of his father on certain things.

Quote

Thorne also worries that they'll end up angering Tywin if they don't choose Slynt. Thorne thinks that Tywin will ultimately defeat Stannis and reminds the men that Stannis has already been beaten once during the Battle of the Blackwater.

Wow....that's one argument from Book Thorne that makes sense. Though of course, he's arguing to back Slynt. TV Show Thorne is so far superior to Book Thorne.

Edited November 27, 2017 by benteen

nodorothyparker · November 22, 2017

I enjoy this whole section of the lord commander election too. Stannis is great in Sam's chapter cutting through Slynt's bullshit and disabusing his listeners of any ideas they might have that Slynt isn't a disgraced corrupt political toady. Again, we get the pretty clear sense that had Stannis ended up as king instead of Robert or been able to influence Robert in any meaningful way, a whole lot of people would have been executed or exiled since the rebellion. Even in his frustration with the Watch for dragging out the election, Stannis is still a stickler for following their rules about it to the letter. That doesn't mean he can't help move things along by locking them in until they do settle it. I can only assume there's some kind of glamour going on with Lightbringer as Aamon and Sam notice that it's pretty enough and seems to give off light but doesn't actually produce any heat like a true burning sword would.

Sam going back and forth trying to play politics with the crusty Pyke and Mallister is fantastic. It's a hoot that they both insist they don't really want the job but they'll be damned if they let the other or Slynt have it, so they guess they'll throw themselves on the sword to take it if elected. Sure, Sam's machinations are a little crude, but he's not dealing with people who have any real experience or sophistication with the democratic process. The sniping at Slynt during the election process is great with Pyke pointing out that for all affectations about being lord of Harrenhal, Slynt's never actually seen it and Slynt trying to invoke the Halfhand, someone he obviously wasn't around to meet.

Jon's not always among my favorite characters, but I enjoy him a lot when we really get a sense of the internal conflict he's clearly been wrestling with his whole life that Stannis's offer has reignited here. There's something painfully honest in his thinking about all the good he could do as lord of Winterfell, but when he really gets down to it he wants it because he's always wanted it and all the trappings that come along with it for himself. I can't read that section without wanting him to take it and restore Winterfell and have the family he so desperately wants, which makes it that much more poignant as you realize he walks into that election intending to refuse it and stay where he is even if it means putting up with a new commander who hates him.

I know a 14- or 15-year-old boy is a man in this world considered old enough to marry or lead armies, but he still feels so very young for the responsibility he's just been handed.

YaddaYadda · November 22, 2017

This will always be one of my favorite passes in the books. I've always liked Jon, but this chapter made me appreciate him even more.

And this always made me wonder if Ned saw Jon's struggles and decided to turn a blind eye to them, if he understood at all, or he just wasn't equipped to deal with any of it. From the late AGOT Ned chapters, it doesn't seem like Ned ever intended on telling Jon anything about his mother, and if he wasn't planning on doing that, then the paternity secret was also going to remain buried.

What I like from this chapter is the hints we get at "waking the dragon" when he is pummeling Iron Emmett (nothing but love for Emmett!) and that he is good at everything he puts his mind to, which is how Rhaegar was described by Barristan. Selmy. And then there's the sarcastic retort to Thorne & Co, which reminds me a bit of Arya when she is snarking at someone.

I wanted Jon to take Winterfell, but I also think it will be far more powerful if and when he finds out what Robb's last wishes for him were.

Ghost's reappearance was a very welcomed one. And one thing I've wondered about for a while is the magic in Westeros and the Wall's interference with it. Arya is able to warg Nymeria long distance, then very long distance when she is in Essos, but Jon can't sense Ghost the moment he crosses the Wall. So I have to wonder if the Wall wasn't built to cut off magic.

And I of course really like Jon connecting both Ghost and Winterfell to the old gods. This is really one of my favorite things in the chapter, this association. And it's a reminder that Winterfell is as old as the Wall itself.

nodorothyparker · November 22, 2017

I can't read any of the parts of Jon chapters that broach his bastard status within the family without wondering again what if anything at all longterm Ned intended there. Maybe he and Benjen quietly planned the whole Nights Watch thing all along, but it doesn't come off that way in the first book as much as "Welp, your stepmother won't have you here with me gone to Kings Landing and it's something you decided in a snitty teenage drunk so a lifelong vow you can never get out of it is!" All I can think is he probably thought it safer for Jon's Targaryen blood to stay buried at the Wall and die out there so no further wars could be fought over a claim such as his because otherwise he looks pretty indifferent or oblivious to Jon's obvious struggling when it would have been within his power to set him up as a minor lord of some far northern holdfast married to some other minor lord's younger daughter and let him have something of his own.

WearyTraveler · November 22, 2017

4 hours ago, benteen said:

Jon was the visionary leader the Night's Watch needed but still did a lot of things wrong and didn't learn from the lessons on his father on certain things.

You know I was left with that impression after the first read too, but since then I have re-read the series several times and I have to say that I did notice many, many times when Jon specifically explained to his brothers in the NW what his plans were and he repeats, several times, that if they don't bring the Wildlings to their side of the Wall, they will become wights and strengthen the enemy's armies.

I think the one thing he did wrong was to intend to take up arms against Ramsay. But I guess we'll save that discussion for the later Jon chapters.

YaddaYadda · November 22, 2017

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I can't read any of the parts of Jon chapters that broach his bastard status within the family without wondering again what if anything at all longterm Ned intended there. Maybe he and Benjen quietly planned the whole Nights Watch thing all along

That's not the impression I'm getting. Ned and Brandon were fostered at the Vale, but Ned kept all the children at Winterfell. And he still saw them as children. When he gets angry at Catelyn for wanting to send Jon away, he tells her that he's just a boy, when he finds out Robb called the banners and will be marching, he thinks that Robb is just a boy. He thinks that Sansa is just a girl (which she is) when Robert tells him she should marry Joffrey, but Catelyn was engaged to Brandon when she was twelve, so there isn't much of a difference. And it doesn't even look like he has given any thought to who Robb should be married to.

In all of this, though, I think that Ned and Benjen's worst sin is that they never told Jon anything about the Night's Watch where he might be able to take a more informed decision for his future. They both suck for that.

Scarlett45 · November 23, 2017

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

That's not the impression I'm getting. Ned and Brandon were fostered at the Vale, but Ned kept all the children at Winterfell. And he still saw them as children. When he gets angry at Catelyn for wanting to send Jon away, he tells her that he's just a boy, when he finds out Robb called the banners and will be marching, he thinks that Robb is just a boy. He thinks that Sansa is just a girl (which she is) when Robert tells him she should marry Joffrey, but Catelyn was engaged to Brandon when she was twelve, so there isn't much of a difference. And it doesn't even look like he has given any thought to who Robb should be married to.

In all of this, though, I think that Ned and Benjen's worst sin is that they never told Jon anything about the Night's Watch where he might be able to take a more informed decision for his future. They both suck for that.

I think after all the whooplah of Robert’s Rebellion, Ned probably thought he had all the time in the world to make arrangements for Jon (and his children). 16 is the age of majority in Book-Westeros, but it’s still young. I think if Jon had absolutely NOT wanted to join the Nightswatch, Ned would’ve sent him to the Mormonts when he went to Kingslanding. Had he never accepted the position of Hand, after he arranged a wife for Robb (several years down the line), he would’ve arranged a match for Jon. Yes Jon was a bastard but he was the Lord Paramount’s bastard raised among his trueborn siblings- and not bad looking to boot. A younger daughter of one of his bannerman would’ve been a likely cannidate.

nodorothyparker · November 23, 2017

It's not really the impression I had either but since we don't get a whole lot to go on, I was willing to try to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they gave any thought at all to a future for Jon beyond letting him sign his life away for a version of the Night's Watch that mostly exists only in stories. Because knowing that Benjen certainly knows the reality and surely Ned too and shrugging it off as well, gotta go somewhere does make them look pretty shitty and doesn't quite match up for me with the Ned who was willing to live this huge lie his entire adult life for Jon.

benteen · November 27, 2017

I agree that Ned and Benjen needed to be honest about the Night's Watch.

Avaleigh · December 6, 2017

Sansa VII

Sansa wakes up from a dream where she was still sharing a room with Arya back at Winterfell. She remembers that she's at the Eyrie and thinks about how she's going by the name Alayne Stone.

The Eyrie is about the size of Maegor's holdfast and Sansa finds it to be a boring and lonely place. Her only companions are her maid and Lord Robert and even though Robert is eight years old he generally behaves like a three year old.

Lysa keeps a small household at the Eyrie ans seems to be just as lonely as Sansa is. Marillion plays for everyone during supper and has lately given the impression that he's singing to Sansa directly. Lysa is annoyed about this and Sansa thinks about how Lysa has has people banished for supposedly telling lies about Marillion.

Littlefinger has been spending most of his time away from the Eyrie in meetings with the Corbrays. Most of Jon Arryn's bannermen are resentful of Lysa's marriage to Petyr and don't like the idea of him being made Lord Protector of the Vale. House Royce in particular is close to open rebellion because of Lysa's refusal to come to Robb's aid during the war and several notable families in the Vale are siding with House Royce. Sansa sees that the Vale isn't the idyllic place that Lysa made it out to be even though they've been spared the worst of the war.

From her window Sansa watches the snow fall and this makes her think about the last time she saw falling snow. It was the day she left Winterfell for King's Landing and she feels her heart ache when she remembers how happy she was the day the she rode off to see the world.

Quote

I thought my song was beginning that day, but it was almost done.

Sansa goes out into the snow covered garden and is moved by how beautiful it looks. She thinks that it looks like a "pure world" and tells herself that she doesn't belong there. When she tastes the snow on her lips she thinks of it as "the taste of Winterfell". She falls on her knees and realizes that she wishes she could go back to the old days. She wonders who she should pray to since the Eyrie doesn't have a godswood.

Sansa starts making snowballs and remembers a time when she had a snow fight with Arya and Bran. Sansa thinks about how there's no one around to throw snow at and decides to build a snow castle instead. Sansa realizes that the castle she's building is Winterfell. A few servants watch her as she builds her snow castle and even Lysa and Maester Coleman watch for awhile out of curiosity.

When Sansa has trouble making her bridges stand, Littlefinger comes forward and gives her advice to make the bridges stand. Littlefinger understands that the castle is supposed to be Winterfell. Littlefinger admits that he used to dream of what Winterfell looked like after Catelyn married Ned and says that he imagined it to be cold and dark place. Sansa explains that Winterfell was always warm even in snowy weather because of the water from the hot springs being piped inside of the walls.

Petyr helps Sansa finish building her castle and when they finished with building the Broken Tower, Sansa decides to take a handful of snow and throw it right in his face. Sansa tells Littlefinger that it was unchivalrous of him to take her to the Eyrie when he'd promised to take her home. She wonders where she's getting the courage to speak to Littlefinger so frankly and decides that her strength is coming from Winterfell.

Littlefinger admits that he lied to Sansa and takes the opportunity after this confession to kiss her. Sansa turns away from Littlefinger and reminds him that he should be kissing his wife. Littlefinger goes on about how beautiful Sansa is and tells her to take off her gloves so that he can warm her hands.

Littlefinger continues to try to put the moves on Sansa but they're interrupted by Lord Robert who sounds excited when he sees Sansa's snow castle. Sansa explains to Robert that the castle is meant to be Winterfell. When Robert hears that Winterfell is the great castle of the north, Robert responds by saying that it isn't so great and pretends that his doll is a giant that has come to knock it down. Sansa tells Robert to stop and when he continues to destroy her snow castle, she tries to grab him but ends up ripping off the head of his doll instead. Robert begins to cry and accuses Sansa of killing his doll. He's so upset that he ends up collapsing on top of the castle and has a full on shaking fit.

Maester Coleman is summoned to come to the Robert's aid and he gives the boy a half a cup of dreamwine before giving orders to have Robert taken to his chambers so that he can be leeched. Robert continues to cry and again accuses Sansa of killing his giant. He tells everyone present that he hates Sansa, says that she's a bastard, and insists that he doesn't want to be leeched. Maester Coleman explains to the boy that he needs to be leeched to get the bad blood out of his system.

Sansa thinks about how Robert will be her husband one day and wonders if he'll have a shaking fit at their wedding. She feels so full of rage that she takes the dolls head and jams it down onto a stick so that it can decorate the walls of Winterfell. The servants are shocked when she does this but Littlefinger laughs and says that he's heard this isn't the first time that a giant's head has ended up on Winterfell's walls.

Once Sansa is back in her room, she wonders if Lysa will punish her for what happened with Robert. She decides that she'd welcome the idea of being banished and doesn't want to marry Robert anyway. She thinks she'd rsther be married to Tyrion than Robert and thinks that life would probably be a lot more fun at the Gates of the Moon especially with Myranda as her friend.

Lysa summons Sansa to the High Hall and orders Marillion to escort her there. When they get to the doors of the High Hall, Marillion orders the guards that no one is to enter as long as Lysa and Alayne are alone together. Sansa starts to feel nervous as she enters the hall and curtsies in front of Lysa.

Lysa gets right to the point and tells Sansa that she saw her kissng Petyr. Sansa clarifies that Littlefinger kissed her but Lysa doesn't want to believe it. She orders Sansa to confess to throwing herself at Littlefinger but Sansa tells her that it isn't true. Lysa says that Sansa will have to be punished and says she'll find a common girl to take Sansa's whipping on her behalf but first Sansa must confess to her "wanton" behavior. Sansa again explains that Littlefinger kissed her while he was helping her build her snow castle and Lysa accuses Sansa of taking her for a fool. She thinks that Sansa believes that she can have any man that she wants because she's young and beautiful. She says that Sansa has been giving Marillion seductive looks as well. She accuses Sansa of being just like her mother and says that multiple people have tried to come in between her and Petyr.

Lysa goes into a rant about the past and how Catelyn once danced six times with Petyr when they were young. She remembers that they all began drinking and when Petyr tried to kiss Catelyn, she turned away from him and laughed. Lysa says that Petyr looked so wounded that she personally felt that her heart would burst. Petry drank that night until he passed and had to be carried to bed by Brynden before Hoster could see him in that condition. Lysa says that she went to Petyr to comfort him that might and they ended up having sex. Lysa admits that Petyr thought it was Catelyn that he was having sex with but doesn't seem bothered by that fact. Lysa says that Catelyn never deserved Petyr and says that since she's given him everything that Petyr belongs to her.

Sansa finds Lysa to be just as scary as Cersei and does her best to be meek and contrite. She tells her aunt that Petyr is all hers and begs her leave to go. Lysa doesn't give her permission to leave and Sansa can tell that she's been drinking. Lysa says that if she were anyone else she'd simply be banished to the Gates of ths Moon or maybe even the Fingers. She tells Sansa that she wants to show her something and commands Marillion to play the song 'The False and the Fair'.

Lysa yanks Sansa by the arm and Sansa tells her that she's hurting her. She swears that she hasn't done anything and stops moving when she realizes that Lysa is bringing her to the Moon Door. Lysa orders Sansa to open the door and threatens to have her guards brought in if Sansa doesn't comply. Sansa thinks that if she does what Lysa says that Lysa will let her go. Once the door is open, Lysa comes behind Sansa pushes her towards the door. She tells Sansa to look down as Sansa tries to pull herseld free. Sansa screams at Lysa not to push her and tells her that she's scaring her.

Sansa screams and pleads as Lysa pushes her foward. Sansa grabs at Lysa's hair and the two of them teeter towards the edge. Lysa yells at Sansa to let go and Sansa can hear the guards banging on the door demanding to be let in. Littlefinger comes onto the scene from the back entrance and asks Lysa what the hell she's doing.

Sansa is able to free herself from Lysa's grip and Lysa explains that she saw Sansa kissing him. She claims that she was only trying to teach Sansa a lesson and says that Sansa has shown her no gratitude. Lysa says she doesn't want Sansa there and asks Petyr why he brought her to the Eyrie. Littlefinger says that they can send Sansa away and even suggests that she be sent back to King's Landing.

When Littlefinger tells Lysa to let Sansa move away from the door, Lysa refuses and tells Littlefinger that Sansa doesn't love him the way that she does. She tearfully asks Littlefinger if she hasn't proved her love for him and cites the fact that she gave him her virginity and was even pregnant with his child. She says that she never knew that she was given a concoction that would make her lose the baby. Littlefinger tells her that this stuff is all in the past and asks her if she's been drinkkng. He warns her that they don't want Alayne or Marillion knowing more than they should.

Lysa ignores Littlefinger's warning and continues to talk. She reminds Littlefinger that Catelyn never gave him anything. She says that she was the one who talked Jon into giving him his first post at court. Littlefinger says that he's never forgotten any of this and points out that they're together now just as Lysa always wanted. Littlefinger asks Lysa to let go of Sansa's but Lysa refuses. She goes back to the fact that she saw them kissing in the snow. Lysa says that Sansa is just like her mother and demands to know why Littlefinger always preferred Catelyn to her.

Littlefinger offers Lysa his hand and tells her that there's no need for her tears but Lysa isn't done with spilling secrets and lets it slip that she was the one who poisoned and killed Jon.

Lysa goes back to asking Littlefinger why he would want to kiss Sansa after everything they've been through to be together. Littlefinger tells Lysa that she should trust him more than she does and promises that they'll be together for as long as they both live. He tells her to let Sansa go so that she can come and give him a kiss.

Lysa runs into Littlefinger's arms and Sansa takes the opportunity to crawl away from the Moon Door. She notices that one of her shoes is missing and realizes that it must have fallen.

Quote

Littlefinger let Lysa sob against his chest for a moment, then put his hands on her arms and kissed her lightly. "My sweet silly jealous wife," he said chuckling. "I've only loved one woman, I promise you."

Lysa Arryn smiled tremulously. "Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?"

"Only Cat." He gave her a short, sharp shove.

Lysa stumbled backward, her feet slipping on the wet marble. And then she was gone. She never screamed. For the longest time there was no sound but the wind.

Marillion gasps in shock and the guards are still pounding at the door. Littlefinger makes sure that Sansa isn't hurt and tells her to let the guards in. He tells her that there's no time to lose and says that he's going to let them know that Marillion is responsible for killing Lysa

Edited December 6, 2017 by Avaleigh

John Potts · December 6, 2017

"Oh Lysa, only, now at the end, do you truly appreciate the power of the Dark Side of the Force..." Oh, sorry, wrong franchise. But it's a real shame GRRM couldn't have made Lysa more of a player. It would have been nice to see Lysa acting on her own initiative more (presumably angling to marry Robert to Sansa, with herself as the power behind the throne) and maybe marrying Petyr as a power move (he is Lord of Harrenhall with extensive connections in KL), even if she was ultimately outplayed by Peytr. To suddenly drop the reveal of (at this point) a 3 book old mystery is completely at odds with the Lysa that can't wait to tell Sansa that she did it (if she's this bad at keeping secrets, word would have leaked out before now). She could still meet the same end (failing to realise that Petyr was using her more than she was using him) but it would make her look like less of a deluded fool.

Avaleigh · December 6, 2017

This is definitely a case of me preferring the book version over the show. Show Lysa is clearly disturbed and unstable but book Lysa *really* brings the crazy here. She's totally trying to push her niece out of the Moon Door whereas on the show maybe, just *maybe* you could buy the argument that her book counterpart tries to sell in thay she was only trying to teach Sansa a lesson. In the books it's impossible to believe that Lysa wasn't trying to kill Sansa. The two are activelt in a physical struggle with hair pulling and all the rest of it. The difference of the Moon Door being a proper door as opposed to some hole in the floor makes it more terrifying IMO. The snow blowing inside, the intensity of the wind and cold, the floor being slippery and the description of both women teetering on the edge---I thought that was terrific stuff. In terms of writi that makes my heart pound, I feel like some of GRRM's strongest writing has involved chapters centered in the Vale. Tyrion in his sky cell and the trial by combat; Catelyn making the ascent to the Eyrie; Sansa and Robert making the descent; Lysa getting pushed out of the Moon Door after the struggle with Sansa. Good stuff.

I love Littlefinger being totally and slimy, but truthful when he tells Lysa that they'll be together as long as they both shall live. I can't believe that Marillion didn't intervene at all when it looked like his meal ticket was tertering over the edge in her struggle with Sansa. Or at least ask Lysa if she needed any help.

What I find interesting about Lysa here is how conscious she is of the truth. She's a big ball of crazy who frequently contradicts herself, but there's apart of her that is aware of what's going on. She repeatedly tells Sansa to confess to initiating the kiss and makes it seem like she doesn't believe Sansa when she insists that Littlefinger was the initiator. So even though Lysa makes it seem like she's convinced that Sansa is this wanton slut who's trying to take Petyr and Marillion away from her, the first thing Lysa asks Littlefinger is why he was kissing Sansa after everything that she, Lysa, has done for him.

It's similar when she recalls the stuff with Catelyn when they were young. Sbe wants to know why Littlefinger always preferred Catelyn to her but then is crazy or delusional enough to believe that Littlefinger has only loved her all of this time.

She also sort of contradicts herself with the Marillion accusation. On the one hand we know that Marillion has been staring inappropriately at Sansa but Lysa turns this around and says that Sansa has been making eyes at Marillion. Then later in the chapter she acknowledges that Marillion has sort of been looking at Sansa but attributes this to Sansa being like her mother in thinking that her youth and beauty will attract any guy she's interested in. She's acknowledging that Sansa's beauty is likely what's attracting Marillion but she's too proud to fully admit it.

How crazy is it too that Lysa has no issue with Littlefinger thinking that she was Catelyn the first time they had sex? Her life is basically just one sad and pathetic and counter after another.

I didn't realize that she wasn't aware until afterward that she'd been given something to cause an abortion. I thought she willingly took it after pressure from her father. That's pretty messed up, yikes.

YaddaYadda · December 6, 2017

Lysa is a character I sort of felt sorry for when we meet her. She's married to a man older than her father, she's had miscarriages, her only living child is a weakling that she coddled overmuch, people seem to like Catelyn better than they like her. Her character was forged early on, and at the same time as Littlefinger's own character was forged.

This chapter though is really intense and it's years of pain and misery and jealousy and resentment that come pouring out. This chapter is the depth of the deception, how Littlefinger dragged the Starks into this war with his lies and how his own resentment of them still ran so deep, that Brandon's death wasn't enough to write whatever wrongs he did him, but that Ned also had to go because he was the one married to Catelyn, because Ned staying alive would have interfered with his plans.

When I started reading this chapter, I was like oh, here we go, Sansa is building a snow castle, yawn. I never thought in a million years that this is how it would end.

I am so looking forward to Winds because I want to see the Houses of the Vale in action. Something has got to give.

benteen · December 6, 2017

Great job summarizing this chapter, Avaleigh. Particularly the Lysa stuff. The description of the moon door really sounds intense and Lysa was definitely bringing the crazy here. I had also forgotten the part about Marillion helping Lysa...he really deal seal his own fate with this. Also forgot that Sansa slapping young Robert was a show thing and not a book thing. I also thought Hoster had forced her to drink the moon tea and not tricked her.

It's also interesting to contrast the reactions of both Lysa and Cersei. A drunk LF called out Catelyn's name while having sex with Lysa and that didn't bother Lysa. A drunken Robert calls Cersei "Lyanna" on her wedding night and that ended any chance of "happiness" for Cersei in her marriage.

Avaleigh · December 6, 2017

56 minutes ago, benteen said:

Great job summarizing this chapter, Avaleigh. Particularly the Lysa stuff. The description of the moon door really sounds intense and Lysa was definitely bringing the crazy here. I had also forgotten the part about Marillion helping Lysa...he really deal seal his own fate with this. Also forgot that Sansa slapping young Robert was a show thing and not a book thing. I also thought Hoster had forced her to drink the moon tea and not tricked her.

It's also interesting to contrast the reactions of both Lysa and Cersei. A drunk LF called out Catelyn's name while having sex with Lysa and that didn't bother Lysa. A drunken Robert calls Cersei "Lyanna" on her wedding night and that ended any chance of "happiness" for Cersei in her marriage.

Nice point about how differently Lysa and Cersei deal with the wrong name during sex incidents. Lysa only becomes more attached to Littlefinger and her ego isn't really bruised here which strange because most of the time she comes across as an ego maniac.

Cersei also comes up in this chapter in that Sansa realizes that Lysa scares her just as much as Cersei ever did. Sad that her aunt is basically Cersei 2.0 for her.

Another detail that I liked was learning that Brynden carried a drunk Littlefinger to bed so that the kid wouldn't get in trouble with Hoster.

YaddaYadda, I have to admit that I loved the bit with the snowcastle. It's such a sweet little moment and I like the part where being inside of this sort of replica of Winterfell gives Sansa the strength to throw snow in Littlefinger's face and go off on him for lying to her about taking her home. She also really starts to appreciate how idyllic her life was before going to King's Landing.

The decription of the garden really is beautiful and I like the detail of how the castle's inhabitants watch her build the snow castle.

Another detail I liked was Sansa just walking around Winterfell, minding her own business when she's attacked with snow by her younger siblings. More than once we have Arya throwing something at Sansa for no particular reason. Then we have Sansa wanting to have a snowball fight but realizing there's no one around to play with. It's a sad scene but I really like it.

Plus we have the moment with Sansa sticking Robert's doll's head on a stick. I loved that.

I was also amused when Sansa briefly compares Robert unfavorably to Joffrey in terms of their physical bodies. Interesting too that she admits to herself that between Robert and Tyrion she'd choose being married to Tyrion.

benteen · December 8, 2017

On ‎12‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 3:16 PM, Avaleigh said:

Another detail that I liked was learning that Brynden carried a drunk Littlefinger to bed so that the kid wouldn't get in trouble with Hoster.

Another detail I liked was Sansa just walking around Winterfell, minding her own business when she's attacked with snow by her younger siblings. More than once we have Arya throwing something at Sansa for no particular reason. Then we have Sansa wanting to have a snowball fight but realizing there's no one around to play with. It's a sad scene but I really like it.

Plus we have the moment with Sansa sticking Robert's doll's head on a stick. I loved that.

That was a nice detail about Brynden. I think it's mentioned somewhere that even LF would go to Brynden when he was a kid. You don't see much of that kindness from the Blackfish on the show and I think the character suffered because of it.

I liked that detail about Sansa too and I liked those little memories that pop up in the books, like Robb and Jon scaring Sansa and Arya in the crypt.

LOL. Sticking a doll's head on a stick is a very Arya thing to do.

YaddaYadda · December 8, 2017

On 12/6/2017 at 3:16 PM, Avaleigh said:

YaddaYadda, I have to admit that I loved the bit with the snowcastle. It's such a sweet little moment and I like the part where being inside of this sort of replica of Winterfell gives Sansa the strength to throw snow in Littlefinger's face and go off on him for lying to her about taking her home. She also really starts to appreciate how idyllic her life was before going to King's Landing.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I actually enjoyed this chapter and the things you pointed out. My first read through was, the cynical take on it. It didn't help that I'm not a huge Sansa fan in general.

40 minutes ago, benteen said:

That was a nice detail about Brynden. I think it's mentioned somewhere that even LF would go to Brynden when he was a kid. You don't see much of that kindness from the Blackfish on the show and I think the character suffered because of it.

Yes, Catelyn muses on it when she arrives at the Gate of the Moon when she meets up with Brynden, who is just an overall awesome character.

Avaleigh · December 21, 2017

Epilogue

Merrett Frey is walking up the road with a bag of gold so that he can ransom Ser Ryman's son back from the outlaws. As he walks to the ruins of Oldstones, he thinks about his life and bemoans the fact that he's never had much luck.

Merrett wishes that he didn't have to be the one to hand over the ransom but knows that if he doesn't come back to the Twins with Petyr that he might as well not come back at all. Merrett worries about what will become of him when old Walder finally dies, and thinks it's likely that the new Lord of the Crossing will throw out anyone he doesn't view as being particularly useful to him.

Merrett is thirty seven and feels that he's too old to attempt to be a sellsword or to live the life of a hedge knight. He also knows that he doesn't have what it takes to be a maester or a septon. He acknowledges that it was lucky that he was born to a noble house but wonders what good it is to be a son of a noble house if he's only the ninth son with virtually zero chance of inheriting.

Merrett remembers being fostered at Crakehall in his youth and how he soon became a squire. Everyone assumed that he'd eventually be made a knight but he ends up being severely injured in a fight and is ultimately sent back to the Twins when it becomes clear that he'll no longer be capable of fighting.

Merrett's father makes a good marriage for him to a daughter of Lord Darry but the situation soon sours because the Darrys were prominent Targaryen supporters who ended up losing most of their power and wealth after Aerys was killed.

Merrett's wife finds him to be a disappointment and Merrett isn't much happier with the children they end up having. He thinks of one daughter as a slut and the other a glutton. The glutton is the one Roose Bolton chooses to marry, but Merrett only hears criticism from old Walder about how they could have made the same alliance with the Boltons at a lower price if his daughter had more self control when it comes to food.

When Merrett's thoughts turn to the Red Wedding, he thinks about how Lame Lothar and Roose Bolton did most of the planning. He also remembers how he's given the task of making sure that the Greatjon Umber is too drunk to put up a fight. Even though Merrett succeeded in getting the Greatjon to consume a ridiculously large amount of alcohol, it didn't prevent Umber from killing a guy and wounding several others during the fighting.

Even though Merrett is tempted to drink the ransom money away, he tells himself to keep going because Petyr might end up being Lord of the Crossing one day.

One of the outlaws is sitting on the gravestone of King Tristifer when Merrett approaches him. He asks Merrett if he remembers him and mentions that he sang at his daughter's wedding. Another man asks Merrett if he brought the gold and Merrett becomes nervous when he realizes that there are more than a dozen outlaws surrounding him.

The outlaws take the gold from Merrett and he quickly realizes that the men plan on keeping the money without releasing Petyr. Merrett asks to speak with Beric Dondarrion but the outlaws say that Beric was needed elsewhere. Merrett asks the men to give him his nephew now that they have their gold, so the men say that they'll take Merrett to see Petyr.

The men lead Merrett to the godswood where Petyr is hanging by his neck from an oak tree. Merrett is shocked and protests that he did everything that the outlaws asked him to do. The outlaws admit that they lied about their intentions and quickly put a rope around Merrett's neck. Merrett panics and tells the men that they wouldn't dare hang a Frey. He also tells the men that his father will pay an even larger ransom to get him back, but the outlaws know that Lord Walder is unlikely to fall for the same trick twice.

When they make it clear to Merrett that they're going to hang him, he pleads for his life and tells the men that he has children. One of the men reminds Merrett that Robb Stark will never be able to have children, so Merrett starts explaining that the Red Wedding was about his family trying to "cleanse the stain" that had been made on their honor.

Merrett denies that they committed murder and claims that it was simply war. He also mentions how Catelyn Stark killed Aegon Frey even though he hadn't hurt anyone. Merrett says that Lord Beric always gives men the right to a trial and denies having any part in the planning of the Red Wedding. He says that Lord Walder, Roose Bolton, Ryman, and Lame Lothar are the ones to blame. Merrett says that they have no witnesses to condemn him and one of the men tells Merrett that he's wrong.

Quote

The outlaws parted as she came forward, saying no word. When she lowered her hood, something tightened inside Merret's chest, and for a moment he could not breathe. No. No, I saw her die. She was dead for a day and night before they stripped her naked and threw her body in the river. Raymund opened her throat from ear to ear. She was dead.

Her cloak and collar hid the gash his brother's blade had made, but her face was even worse than he remembered. The flesh had gone pudding soft in the water and turned the color of curdled milk. Half her hair was gone and the rest had turned as white and brittle as a crone's. Beneath her ravaged scalp, her face was shredded skin and black blood where she had raked herself with her nails. But her eyes were the most terrible thing. Her eyes saw him, and they hated.

Lem tells Merrett that Lady Catelyn no longer speaks because the Freys cut her throat too deeply. He says this doesn't matter though because she remembers. He asks Catelyn if Merrett was there at the Red Wedding and Catelyn continues to look into Merrett's eyes as she nods her head.

Merrett Frey opened his mouth to plead, but the noose choked off his words. His feet left the ground, the rope cutting deep into the soft flesh beneath his chin. Up into the air he jerked, kicking and twisting, up and up and up.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Avaleigh

benteen · December 21, 2017

Great chapter. I remember how surprised I was when unCat showed up. Sadly though, this is the most interesting moment for Lady Stoneheart so far (granted, she's only popped up twice in the boosk). Interesting comment about her not speaking...I think she could speak somewhat in AFFC. It makes me wonder how she communicated. Wrote stuff down maybe?

GRRM is very good with these one-off characters like Merrett.

A Storm of Swords was the best book although sadly, GRRM's excesses began to catch up with him after this one.

qtpye · March 19, 2019

On 5/8/2016 at 2:29 PM, Avaleigh said:

Meanwhile, we have Catelyn and the Stark kids believing Ned being capable of it even though most readers side eyed that pretty quickly. I can understand why they'd never dream in a million years that he'd lie about it, not criticizing any of them, it's just interesting that the guy who seems least likely to have fathered a bastard is one pretty much everyone thinks has done it.

I agree, I can't see Tywin losing a night's sleep over the way he's treated any of his children. I wonder how much guilt Hoster felt prior to becoming ill and whether or not he ever tried to make it up with Lysa before this only to be rejected. If he were in his right mind, I can't help but think that he'd be horrified to see how his grandson Robert turned out. I wonder what he would have thought of the plan to have Robert fostered with Stannis (or Tywin)? I wonder why Jon didn't consider having his son fostered at Riverrun? Is the idea that Hoster was already ill and Edmure would be a bad influence or a flakey guardian? Or would it be too easy for Lysa to meddle if her son were being fostered at a castle where she may or may not have some power as Catelyn does/did?

I'm confused about the timeline of Lysa's pregnancy too. I don't really have anything to add other than being particularly confused as to what all Jon Arryn knew with regard to Littlefinger. I have to assume that he didn't know anything or wouldn't he have side eyed Lysa's relationship with Petyr a bit more when they were all at King's Landing.

I can understand why Catelyn is angry with Edmure but I thought she probably should have dialed it back a bit when she started calling him a fool since I'm sure a lot of her side thinks that what she did was extremely foolish.

I was struck by how Catelyn thinks that Tywin and Stannis are on the same level as far as their side is concerned. I also think it's interesting that she still has nightmares about what she saw in the tent. I would think that most people wouldn't be able to easily shake something like that off so I'm glad that she's still disturbed by it because I know I would be. She's one of the few people in this story who knows how shady Stannis is.

I'm confused as to whether or not Catelyn still believes that Tyrion was behind the attempt on Bran. She had so many doubts and when Jaime backed up Tyrion's story she seemed to at least reconsider. She still thinks the Lannisters are behind it but I wonder now if her main suspect is Cersei.

I agree about how feeble it sounded when she mentioned that Tyrion swore an oath at court. Since she seems like a true believer in the gods, I wonder if that extends to her believing that a trial by combat is a genuine indicator of a person's innocence and that's the other reason why her attitude towards Tyrion seems to have changed somewhat. The other thing that she must think back to is the fact that he did save her life.

On 5/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, WearyTraveler said:

I wonder if this fixation you mention was passed on to the Tully children in some way and this is why Catelyn insisted that Ned accept the position of Hand offered by Robert. Lysa has a warped mind, but she's still partly about getting power for herself, Littlefinger and her son. Edmure seems to be afraid to marry an ugly woman, but still agrees to a Frey marriage, even though they are certainly not known for their good looks and he is obsessed with not losing an inch of territory to the Lannisters or anyone else.

On 5/10/2016 at 8:19 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Catelyn seems to view herself as more of a Southroner and is thus much more susceptible to the idea of making those alliances and taking what power and influence you can get. Because that's the culture and family she came from, where you don't turn down the opportunity to be hand of the king and wield that kind of power. I've always found it interesting in light of that that none of the Stark children were fostered anywhere and that Robb is what, 14 or 15 in the first book? Yet there's not even a hint of sniffing around any possible marriage alliances and the Sansa-Joffrey betrothal happens only because Robert thought to suggest it.

I think we're supposed to think it's just that the North is very alien and separate from the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, almost an entity to itself. It's certainly often portrayed that way. But then the story almost goes out of its way at times to remind us how very Southron Catelyn can be in her thinking.

I just sometimes feel that Cat is just not very bright. I don’t think she is an idiot but she does not seem to be a dynamic thinker or aware of her own hypocrisy. She is hoping for good treatment of her girls yet she was horrible to Jon. She thinks Edmure is foolish for wanting a comely bride when it was her son not marrying a Frey that forces Edmure into this unpleasant situation that he seems to be trying to make the best of.

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