The Official Re-Read Project: Book 2: A Clash Of Kings

[Lady S.]

I was thinking the same :D

Not that I think he wants it. There is many instances when he admires Cersei's beauty but I think it's just because Martin wanted the pov to describe it. Same as when Jon describes Satin's good looks.

But I think he would have been up for any kind of affection.

I don't think he's actively lusting for her, but I think he's playing into the complete lack of boundaries in this family. Jaime doesn't hide the incest from Tyrion so he's grown up with it normalized. His own sex life is treated as common property with Tywin trying to control it, Cersei mocking his marriage to Tysha and treating him as every bit the deviant imp persona, and (he believes) Jaime feeling the need to engineer an elaborate ruse to make him a man at the ripe age of 13. In a family where boundaries aren't even really a concept, it's only natural that Tyrion thinks of Cersei's beauty or throws the incest and her sexual manipulations in her face.

I don't buy that fear of the valonqar prophecy was on George's radar at this stage of the writing either.  I'm sure an argument can be made that Cersei was just playing it very close to the vest but I just don't think so.  She's too openly antagonistic toward the brother she's supposed to believe will kill her someday.

Yeah, I don't think playing things close to the vest is really Cersei's style, she's much too volatile in this chapter. As you say, Jaime's PoV is pretty well set up in Clash but I don't think Cersei's PoV was one GRRM had in mind here or even in Storm.

 

people are having sex in public and the lady starts screaming because castle residents are walking through common areas?

I think she just minded because Hodor was staring, most people would probably just walk on by. I don't think servants really had the luxury of privacy in medieval castles.

 

This is a fun chapter if you ignore what's coming after. I think there's two or three more Bran chapters before Theon's arrival, but poor Lady Hornwood is in her last days of freedom.

[Holmbo]

The Bran chapter makes me feel kinda annoyed because to me it feels like set up for so much stuff Martin hasn't gotten too and might never do.

Does Howland Reed have some further purpose in the story? What will Bran end up using his powers for? What are the plans of the northern lords? (Not that the book has gotten to that last one, but just every time several northern lords are gathered I think about if they will play a important role in the story).

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn II

 

Catelyn is having a sweet dream about her family. Arya and Sansa are holding hands, Bran hasn't had his accident, Robb isn't a king, Rickon is a nursing baby, and Ned is still alive and waiting in her bed. When she wakes from the dream she feels tired and ready to cry. She wishes that she could be comforted for awhile and thinks about how she's over having to be strong all of the time. She vows to herself that one day she'll permit herself to not be as strong as she usually is.

 

As she dresses for the day, her fingers are all clumsy and she thinks to herself how she should be grateful that she's able to use her hands at all considering how sharp Valyrian steel is.

 

When she emerges from her tent Ser Wendel Manderly asks her if she wants to have roasted quail for breakfast, and he's all bummed out when she replies that she and everyone would do better to have bread and porridge instead since they still have a long way to ride.

 

They're on the way to see Renly and Catelyn thinks about how she tried to dissuade Robb from sending her. She tells him that she hasn't seen Renly since Renly was around Bran's age and argues that her place is by her father's side until he dies. Robb doesn't feel that he has anyone else to send and ultimately gets Catelyn to agree by asking her if he should send the Greatjon instead.

 

His men are restless and Robb feels that he needs to march if he's going to keep his army intact. When Catelyn suggests that Robb would be a fool to march on Harrenhal and play into Tywin's hands, Robb tells her that he wasn't talking about marching on Harrenhal.

 

When Catelyn says goodbye to her father she asks him to wait for her as she has so many times waited for him, but Hoster is no longer able to recognize his daughter and asks her where she and Lysa are.

 

She reflects on how fate continually brings her south when she should be going back home in the north. She's written to Bran and Rickon and tells them that she hasn't forgotten about them. She explains that Robb needs her more right now.

 

Catelyn isn't looking forward to the meeting with Renly and thinks about how Robb doesn't see Renly as a true king and therefore won't bend the knee to him.

 

When they're about a half a day's ride away from Renly's camp they meet with outriders of Renly's who want to know what they're doing there. Catelyn explains that she's there as an envoy for her son so Ser Colen of Greenpools offers to escort her to Renly's camp. Catelyn briefly wonders if she's being captured but decides to trust in the honor of the knight and Renly.

 

As they arrive at the camp, Catelyn and Wendel are both impressed by the size of Renly's host. They soon find that a tourney melee is already in progress.

 

Catelyn is asked to leave her men behind when she goes to see Renly, so she agrees and follows Ser Colen. As they're watching the melee, Catelyn thinks that they're all mad for play fighting with each other when half of the realm is at war.

 

As Catelyn takes note of the various lords and ladies who are in the gallery, her eyes fall on Renly and she thinks he looks exactly like a younger version of Robert. She thinks it's little wonder that so many people are ready to flock around him when Renly basically looks like Robert reincarnated.

 

Renly's queen, Margaery Tyrell, is seated next to him and Catelyn thinks that she's about the same age as Robb. She thinks that the girl's smile seems shy and sweet, and she watches as Margaery cheers on her brother Ser Loras. The fight is down to Loras and a blue knight from Tarth and just when the blue knight is disarmed and seems about to lose, the blue knight full on charges at Loras and as they grapple with each other, they fall to the ground and Loras is pinned beneath the blue knight. Loras's visor is opened and he's quickly forced to yield.

 

The blue knight salutes Renly while Loras is helped to his feet by his squires. When they take off his helm, Catelyn notes how good looking Loras is and is surprised to see that he's only about two years older than Robb. Renly asks the blue knight to approach.

 

He limped toward the gallery. At close hand, the brilliant blue armor looked rather less splendid; everywhere it showed scars, the dents of mace and warhammer, the long gouges left by swords, chips in the enameled breastplate and helm. His cloak hung in rags. From the way he moved, the man within was no less battered. A few voices hailed him with cries of "Tarth!" and, oddly, "A Beauty! A Beauty!" but most were silent. The blue knight knelt before the king. "Grace," he said, his voice muffled by his dented greathelm.

 

Renly compliments the blue knight and comments that he's never seen Loras unhorsed in such a manner before. A drunk Tyrell supporter from the crowd says that the blue knight resorted to tricks to unhorse Ser Loras and Catelyn asks Ser Cole why the blue guy seems to be so disliked. Ser Cole explains that the blue knight is in fact a woman and Catelyn is horrified to learn this. She's even more horrified and full of pity when she sees how Brienne of Tarth received the nickname of Brienne the Beauty. Catelyn wonders if there's any person on earth more unfortunate than an ugly woman.

 

Renly tells Brienne that she can have the boon of her choice provided that it's within his power to grant it. She asks to be a member of Renly's Rainbow Guard. Renly immediately agrees and puts a new rainbow cloak on her himself. Brienne lights up after he does this and swears to him that she'll shield him with her life.

 

Ser Cole tells Renly that he's brought Catelyn and that she comes as an envoy to Robb, the Lord of Winterfell. Catelyn corrects Ser Cole and says that her son is also the King in the North.

 

Renly is surprised to see Catelyn and is soon introducing her to his wife Margaery. Margaery tells Catelyn how welcome she is and says that she's sorry for her recent loss. Renly swears to Catelyn that he'll make the Lannisters pay for Ned's murder and says that he can send her Cersei's head after he takes King's Landing. Catelyn replies that it will be enough for her to know that justice has been done.

 

Brienne sharply reminds Catelyn of how Renly should be addressed now that he's a king and tells her that she should kneel to him. Catelyn makes it clear that she doesn't have time for this and says that they presently have more pressing concerns.

 

Renly starts questioning Catelyn about Robb's plans and asks when he'll be marching on Harrenhal. Catelyn is careful to not give away her son's plans while not giving offense to Renly, and confirms that Jaime Lannister is still being held prisoner at Riverrun.

 

Mathis Rowan is dismayed to learn that Jaime is still alive and Renly comments that it seems like direwolves are gentler than lions. Lord Tarly thinks that Robb is weak and says that Robb should have come to talk to Renly himself rather than sending his mother. Catelyn replies that Robb is too busy dealing with actual war as opposed to playing at it. Renly seems amused here and tells Lord Tarly that he'd better tread softly because he appears to be outmatched.

 

Renly is putting his feet up inside of the castle of Lord Caswell so he offers Catelyn the use of his large pavilion and invites her to feast with them later that evening. He says they can talk again after she's had the chance to freshen up. The pavilion is ultra luxurious and Catelyn thinks to herself that Renly certainly doesn't hold back when it comes to materialism and spending. She thinks it's no wonder that his host is so slow moving. 

 

At the feast in the Great Hall of Lord Caswell's keep, Catelyn is seated in between Lord Rowan and Ser Jon Fossoway. Mathis makes polite conversation and Ser Jon is a genial guy who jokes around.

Brienne is seated all the way at the far end of the table and she's dressed the way a knight would be. She only speaks when spoken to and spends most of the evening looking down into her food.

 

Catelyn observes Renly, Loras, and Margaery for awhile. She think that Loras has the sort of hair that would make most women jealous and she notices that Loras commands far more of Renly's confidence and attention than Margaery does. She also notes that Renly seems to be able to control himself when it comes to eating and drinking. She sees that he appears to give attention to highborn and common folk alike.

 

A fool and a dwarf are provided for entertainment and they make nearly everyone laugh by making fun of Jaime and Tyrion. Mathis Rowan comments to Catelyn that Renly and his allies are all so young.

 

It was true. The Knight of Flowers could not have reached his second name day when Robert slew Prince Rhaegar on the Trident. Few of the others were very much older. They had been babes during the Sack of King's Landing, and no more than boys when Balon Greyjoy raised the Iron Islands in rebellion. They are still unblooded, Catelyn thought as she watched Lord Bryce goad Ser Robar into juggling a brace of daggers. It is all a game to them still, a tourney writ large, and all they see is the chance for glory and honor and spoils. They are boys drunk on song and story, and like all boys, they think themselves immortal.

 

Catelyn says that war is going to age Renly and his friends just as war has aged them. She says that she feels sorry for them. Lord Rowan wonders why she feels pity for them and points out that they're all in the prime of life. Catelyn sadly responds that it won't last and says Renly and his friends are summer knights, and unfortunately for them winter is coming.

 

"Lady Catelyn, you are wrong." Brienne regarded her with eyes as blue as her armor. "Winter will never come for the likes of us. Should we die in battle, they will surely sing of us, and it's always summer in the songs. In the songs all knights are gallant, all maids are beautiful, and the sun is always shining."

 

Winter comes for all of us, Catelyn thought. For me, it came when Ned died. It will come for you too, child, and sooner than you like. She did not have the heart to say it.

 

Renly saves Catelyn from having to reply and asks her to take a walk with him. Brienne immediately wants to accompany them, saying that he shouldn't go around without protection but Renly insists that she stay behind at the feast. He adds that if he needs her he'll send for her. Catelyn thinks Renly's words seem to wound Brienne more than any hit she took during the melee.

 

Once they start walking, Renly inquires after Selmy and asks if he's been to see Robb by any chance. Catelyn isn't aware until now that Selmy is no longer with Joffrey and the Lannisters as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. It seems that Renly has been waiting for Selmy to join up with him and has been saving a spot in the Rainbow Guard for him, a spot that Brienne has now officially filled. Renly worries that something has happened to Selmy and hopes that the Lannisters haven't don't anything to him.

 

Renly then goes on to tell Catelyn about the deal of his that Ned rejected. He tells her that Ned could have been Regent after all was said and done and says that he need never have claimed the crown for himself. He says that he wouldn't have had enough strength without Ned's help and once Ned refused to relent, Renly says he had no choice but to flee since he already had a target on his back.

 

Catelyn thinks that if Renly hadn't fled and had lent his support to Ned that her husband might still be alive.

 

Renly starts talking men and numbers and strength and seems confident that he'll be able to eventually get Dorne on his side. When he mentions Stannis, Catelyn is blunt and to the point when she tells Renly that he seems to have forgotten that Stannis comes before him in the line of succession. Renly shrugs and makes it seem like he doesn't really care. He says that nobody loves Stannis anyway and says that he would make an appalling king. He also asks what right his brother Robert really had to the Iron Throne at the end of the day.

 

Renly says that if Robb comes over to his side then he can have the land, the titles, and can go on calling himself the King in the North. He insists that he would be Robb's overlord though because he doesn't want to be king of a broken kingdom. Robb would have to bend the knee and pay homage to him.

 

Catelyn asks what will happen if Robb refuses and Renly and Renly makes it clear that he wants his kingdom to stay intact. He says that the Stark King who knelt to Aegon the Conqueror three hundred years ago was smart to do what he did and suggests that Robb should be wise like that too.

 

Their conversation is interrupted by the unexpected raising of the portcullis and Renly is soon informed that Storm's End is besieged. Renly is confused and wonders why he hasn't heard about Tywin leaving Harrenhal.

 

The messenger informs Renly that it's Lord Stannis who is at the gates of Storm's End and it seems he's calling himself King Stannis.

[Avaleigh]

I have to say that I've enjoyed both of Catelyn's chapters so far. I don't remember her being a fave POV because she irritates me so much as a character but I enjoyed this and it brought me back to her great chapter at the Eyrie where she's watching this mockery of a trial and she's the only one who seems to see things clearly for what they really are. In the Eyrie, Ser Rodrik was with her so we had another voice of disapproval. For a moment I thought that Lord Rowan was going to be the other person to share her thoughts but she basically seemed to be on an island unto herself. 

 

Even Brienne, a character I think of as being reasonably sensible at the end of the day, even she has her head in the clouds about Renly as a king and the silliness of having a tourney melee at a time like this. It's one thing to train but that isn't what this was. I think Catelyn had them accurately pegged in terms of in terms of how they were playing at war. 

 

One detail I don't remember catching during my first read is how Renly puts the rainbow cloak on her personally. What a curious gesture considering what it means for a man to drape a woman with a cloak in that world. The other thing about that moment that stands out to me is that in the wedding ceremony a man is cloaking the woman and saying that he'll protect her. Renly is cloaking Brienne so that she will protect him. I thought that was kind of interesting and I wonder if GRRM was thinking of Westerosi marriage ceremonies when he included the moment. 

 

The moment where Renly tells Brienne that he'll basically call her when he needs her--it's not as bad as the way he shit talks Shireen but I was irritated with him all the same. 

 

Funny how Renly doesn't consider for a moment that Barristan would defect over to Stannis. I wonder how Stannis would have responded if he'd had shown up on his doorstep. I wonder too if Barristan considered it at all. I can't remember if he did. 

 

Tarly is bold no doubt about that but he comes off like such a misogynistic jerk to me. Of course he'd see Catelyn coming as an envoy as Robb hiding behind his mother's skirts.

 

Renly doesn't have the sense to offer Robb a thing apart from an honorary title. If I were Robb I'd tell Renly to fuck off and back Stannis and I don't even like Stannis.

 

On paper though there's a lot with Renly that works but I guess it's mostly substance.

 

With the fool and the dwarf performing I couldn't help but think of the folly at Joffrey's wedding on the show. To me there's something sort of tasteless about it no matter what side you're on. 

[nodorothyparker]

I adore this chapter because it's our first introduction to Brienne, but yeah, it's mostly a chapter about a whole lot of people none of whom seem to have a very good grip on reality.  I don't always like Catelyn as a character but I like her chapters, if that makes any sense because she's at the center of so much and she has so many things to say about everything.  Catelyn here is the voice of reason about Renly and his summer soldiers playing tourney when war and winter is coming.

 

I'm always struck on rereads how Brienne, despite I think being 18 or 19 compared to Sansa's 11 and having seen more of the world and seeming to have more agency, is only slightly less naive and moonstruck than Sansa.

 

Renly is such an interesting character to me.  He was clear-eyed enough to see that Ned's plans were never going to lead anywhere good.  He's savvy enough to make a strategic alliance with the Tyrells and sew up support among the vast majority of the Baratheon bannermen.  Yet he seriously underestimates Stannis and his resolve.  He's fairly dismissive of Robb and the Northern cause. And he doesn't seem to be in any big hurry to get off his butt and actually wage war rather than playact it.  You have to wonder just how long he would have sauntered along feasting and tourneying if Stannis hadn't made a move and forced a confrontation.

Edited January 28, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

Funny how Renly doesn't consider for a moment that Barristan would defect over to Stannis. I wonder how Stannis would have responded if he'd had shown up on his doorstep. I wonder too if Barristan considered it at all. I can't remember if he did.

It's even worse than that. He somehow expected Barry to join him, the Baratheon with the lesser claim, yet he'd already given the LC position to Loras. He expected Barristan the fucking Bold, a knight who served three kings in three wars and performed famous feats, to serve under Loras, a knight who had only ever fought in tourneys at that point. Renly clearly only believes in giving jobs to the best fit when it pertains to his own position and his imagined fitness to be king. Loras was his LC and Mace would have been his Hand, so his court would have just been filled with Tyrells instead of Lannisters. I mean, that is a step up from Cersei and Joffers, but it just shows that this whole campaign was based on Tyrell ambition and Renly's ego and love of being the center of attention.

The part where Renly annoys me here is asking when Robb will march against Tywin. Bullshit he wants some Lannisters saved for him when he's doing his best to postpone fighting them. Renly wants Robb to do the hard work for him, either weakening Tywin or defeating him outright. Yet would Renly even appreciate that? No, he wants to intimidate Robb into accepting an empty title. There's also the fact that he planned to kill Cersei anyway, so claiming vengeance for Ned was an empty gesture, and when Catelyn tells him she wants her daughters back more, he makes no promises. And he takes Dorne's support for granted and doesn't make any efforts to win them over, even though Robert took the throne over the dead bodies of Elia's children, and the Reach and Stormlands were traditionally enemies of Dorne. Charming he may be, but this does not sound like a master coalition builder, more that he's relying on his huge Tyrell army thinking might makes right.

 

“Oh, there was talk of the blood ties between Baratheon and Targaryen, of weddings a hundred years past, of second sons and elder daughters. No one but the maesters care about any of it. Robert won the throne with his warhammer.”

 

Really, Renly, you're unaware your own paternal grandma was a Targ princess? That's a pretty direct connection and one that did not involve a second son or take place a hundred years ago. Either Renly's trying to downplay the Baratheon bloodright for his own ends or his education on family history never happened after being orphaned as a baby. Feels like Cressen should have covered that at some point, but maybe Renly was just that bad of a student.

 

I wonder how Catelyn ever met Renly as a child, it doesn't sound like she knew the Baratheons pre-Rebellion and if Renly was Bran's age it would have been after Robert was king. Did she and Ned attend Robert's wedding or some other event in King's Landing. I didn't think Ned had gone back there after the Sack until becoming Hand though, so once again the timeline is kind of confusing to me.

[vibeology]

The only way Catelyn's history makes sense to me is if she went south without Ned at some point. Besides her knowing Renly, she also talks about seeing Lysa less that 14 years ago at one point in the first book. I can imagine that Cat took a boat from White Harbour around when Sweetrobin was born to see her sister for a few weeks. It would account for her not knowing how Lysa looked now, give her a chance to meet a few of these key people but keep her isolated enough that she doesn't really know the players as well as she needs to. Still, its an issue with the timeline for sure.

[Avaleigh]

It's even worse than that. He somehow expected Barry to join him, the Baratheon with the lesser claim, yet he'd already given the LC position to Loras. He expected Barristan the fucking Bold, a knight who served three kings in three wars and performed famous feats, to serve under Loras, a knight who had only ever fought in tourneys at that point. Renly clearly only believes in giving jobs to the best fit when it pertains to his own position and his imagined fitness to be king. Loras was his LC and Mace would have been his Hand, so his court would have just been filled with Tyrells instead of Lannisters. I mean, that is a step up from Cersei and Joffers, but it just shows that this whole campaign was based on Tyrell ambition and Renly's ego and love of being the center of attention.

The part where Renly annoys me here is asking when Robb will march against Tywin. Bullshit he wants some Lannisters saved for him when he's doing his best to postpone fighting them. Renly wants Robb to do the hard work for him, either weakening Tywin or defeating him outright. Yet would Renly even appreciate that? No, he wants to intimidate Robb into accepting an empty title. There's also the fact that he planned to kill Cersei anyway, so claiming vengeance for Ned was an empty gesture, and when Catelyn tells him she wants her daughters back more, he makes no promises. And he takes Dorne's support for granted and doesn't make any efforts to win them over, even though Robert took the throne over the dead bodies of Elia's children, and the Reach and Stormlands were traditionally enemies of Dorne. Charming he may be, but this does not sound like a master coalition builder, more that he's relying on his huge Tyrell army thinking might makes right.

 

Really, Renly, you're unaware your own paternal grandma was a Targ princess? That's a pretty direct connection and one that did not involve a second son or take place a hundred years ago. Either Renly's trying to downplay the Baratheon bloodright for his own ends or his education on family history never happened after being orphaned as a baby. Feels like Cressen should have covered that at some point, but maybe Renly was just that bad of a student.

 

I wonder how Catelyn ever met Renly as a child, it doesn't sound like she knew the Baratheons pre-Rebellion and if Renly was Bran's age it would have been after Robert was king. Did she and Ned attend Robert's wedding or some other event in King's Landing. I didn't think Ned had gone back there after the Sack until becoming Hand though, so once again the timeline is kind of confusing to me.

Wow, I hadn't even considered that. I took it for granted that he was saving the LC spot too. I also wondered for a moment if Barristan did come over that Renly would be in the rather awkward position of telling one of his seven...'Right, so there's good news and there's bad news. Remember that whole thing where I gave you a job where you were to be my honored sworn shield for life? Well, the bad news is that you lost your job but the good news is that it's okay if you want to start praying having sex again.'

 

Barristan and Rodrik would both have rolled their eyes at seeing a tourney at a time like this. I don't think Renly ever got that lesson that Robb got about waving a sword around for no reason.

 

I agree that Mace would have been Hand in Renly's court but I do wonder what sort of position Littlefinger would have wrangled for himself in that set up. On the surface he and Renly seemed like they were on the same level during the small council meetings so I can see Renly wanting to keep him around for the humor if nothing else. 

 

I agree that Brienne does seem very naive and young. 

 

I did wonder what his plan was for getting Dorne into the fold. I don't get the impression that he really had one. 

 

Regarding when Catelyn would have seen Renly--my first thought was that he was around for a wedding or something. I don't know how old Renly would have been when Stannis married. 

[nodorothyparker]

One of the early chapters of Game of Thrones tells us that it's been 9 years since the Greyjoy Rebellion and when Robert and Ned last saw each other.  I don't think we're ever specifically told whether other members of the Starks, Baratheons, or even Lannisters interacted with each other or how much during that time, but some could probably be implied by the familiarity they show.  Renly is supposed to be 21 in the first book, so he would have actually been a few years older than Bran is now.

 

Game of Thrones also tells us in Catelyn and Lysa's first meeting at the Eyrie that it's been five years since they last saw each other.  Hence Catelyn's not appreciating how far gone Lysa is off her rocker.

[benteen]

I enjoyed Catelyn's POV too.  We get to see her interact with a lot of the main players.  She might have interacted with the most diverse group of characters.

 

Renly's grandmother was a Targ princess but he's clearly downplaying the blood claim to the Crown.  He's pretty much selling it on "Screw blood, I'm the guy who would make the better King.  Period."  I've often said a Stannis and Renly King/Hand arrangement would have been perfect because they really would compliment each others' strengths and weaknesses.

 

Catelyn also talks about seeing Lysa for the last time five years ago.  Catelyn hadn't been to King's Landing in 15 years and I don't know if she had been to the Eyrie prior because I don't think she'd seen her Uncle in 15 years either.  Did Lysa just visit Winterfell then?  I agree the traveling arrangements are old.

 

 

Renly doesn't have the sense to offer Robb a thing apart from an honorary title. If I were Robb I'd tell Renly to fuck off and back Stannis and I don't even like Stannis.

 

I think if Robb had known about the incest earlier, he would have joined up with Stannis.  As long as Stannis didn't try to force the Red God on the North (which would have backfired dramatically), Robb and Stannis would have been unstoppable on the battlefield and I think those two would have gotten along well.  Though the combination of the Stark honor and Stannis's stubbornness would probably destroy them in the end.

[Lady S.]

One of the early chapters of Game of Thrones tells us that it's been 9 years since the Greyjoy Rebellion and when Robert and Ned last saw each other.  I don't think we're ever specifically told whether other members of the Starks, Baratheons, or even Lannisters interacted with each other or how much during that time, but some could probably be implied by the familiarity they show.  Renly is supposed to be 21 in the first book, so he would have actually been a few years older than Bran is now.

 

Game of Thrones also tells us in Catelyn and Lysa's first meeting at the Eyrie that it's been five years since they last saw each other.  Hence Catelyn's not appreciating how far gone Lysa is off her rocker.

Ned hadn't seen Robert since the Greyjoy Rebellion, yet he talked about seeing Tommen on the "Lannister woman's teat". Tommen, who was only 7 in aGoT, and Myrcella was only eight so she was also too young. It's hard to imagine Ned and Cersei socializing without Robert, so I think that one was a timeline goof. GRRM is not good with numbers.

 

Yeah, that's at least two trips south Catelyn must have made because Renly would have been sixteen five years before AGoT, and when Sweetrobin was born he was already a teenager. I don't think Sansa ever met Lysa before Littlefinger brought her to the Vale with him, so Lysa probably never went to Winterfell.

 

Wow, I hadn't even considered that. I took it for granted that he was saving the LC spot too. I also wondered for a moment if Barristan did come over that Renly would be in the rather awkward position of telling one of his seven...'Right, so there's good news and there's bad news. Remember that whole thing where I gave you a job where you were to be my honored sworn shield for life? Well, the bad news is that you lost your job but the good news is that it's okay if you want to start praying having sex again.'

 

Barristan and Rodrik would both have rolled their eyes at seeing a tourney at a time like this. I don't think Renly ever got that lesson that Robb got about waving a sword around for no reason.

Yes, that was part of Davos's report in the prologue. “Renly’s made his own Kingsguard,” the onetime smuggler explained, “but these seven don’t wear white. Each one has his own color. Loras Tyrell’s their Lord Commander.” Which leads into Cressen's musing about Renly's games as a boy, games he is definitely still playing at here. What he's doing is really destabilizing and reckless, but I don't get the feeling he was really hungry for power, he just liked the idea of wearing a crown in a childish way and thought he deserved it because people liked him as much as Robert but he wasn't a lazy drunk. He and his knights of summer want to live out a song, just as Sansa wanted to do so as Joffrey's Queen. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Lady S.

[vibeology]

Ned hadn't seen Robert since the Greyjoy Rebellion, yet he talked about seeing Tommen on the "Lannister woman's teat". Tommen, who was only 7 in aGoT, and Myrcella was only eight so she was also too young. It's hard to imagine Ned and Cersei socializing without Robert, so I think that one was a timeline goof. GRRM is not good with numbers.

 

Yeah, that's at least two trips south Catelyn must have made because Renly would have been sixteen five years before AGoT, and when Sweetrobin was born he was already a teenager. I don't think Sansa ever met Lysa before Littlefinger brought her to the Vale with him, so Lysa probably never went to Winterfell.

 

I think the bad with numbers thing mostly explains it. I do think its very easy to believe that Catelyn would have gone south alone (obviously not actually alone, but without Ned or the kids) to be with Lysa for a birth or because she lost a child in birth. That's the Tully way, but its hard to reconcile the other issues. Either Cersei was breastfeeding Joffrey for a very long time or Martin just goofed in getting the pre-story timeline all squared up. I'm going to assume the latter. The big points are its been nearly 10 years since Ned saw Robert and 5 since Cat saw Lysa so Cat must have travelled alone and at that time met some of these people she's supposed to know. (but somehow didn't run into Littlefinger or the Blackfish while she was there)

[benteen]

Catelyn hadn't seen her father in 15 years, right?  So she hadn't visited Riverrun.  Lysa wouldn't have visited her father.  I can't see her visiting the Eryie without running into her Uncle.  So did they just meet halfway?  I think GRRM is playing funny with some of these events.  It's clear that Catelyn hasn't seen some people in years and hasn't been in certain places in years so just where did she go to meet them?

 

I can buy Ned seeing Cersei at the Tournament in Lannisport after the Greyjoy Rebellion but Tommen wouldn't have been born yet.  The Greyjoy Rebellion and his visit to Bear Island to meet out justice to Jorah were apparently the only time he did any traveling in the past 15 years.  I think GRRM just contradicted himself a lot with this writing.

 

EDIT:  The only place I could see Cat and Lysa meeting up as a halfway point is White Harbor.  That does seem to be a halfway point between Winterfell and King's Landing.  It's a city too so it would be a good meeting place.  Yes, White Harbor would be a logical place for the two of them to meet.  You wouldn't have to travel through the dangerous Vale and risk fighting the Mountain Clans so that would explain the lack of Blackfish.  Though it would be surprising that Catelyn wouldn't have at least taken Sansa when she visited her sister if that was the case.

 

Tommen I think was indeed a timeline goof by GRRM.

Edited January 27, 2016 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

The more I try to suss out the timeline of it all, the more of a headache it becomes.  It just occurred to me that even going by the aforementioned five years since Catelyn and Lyssa last saw each other, Lyssa wasn't in the Eyrie.  She'd spent the last decade and a half or so since Robert's Rebellion in Kings Landing with the then alive Jon Arryn, which is how Tyrion knew her and already knew that she was no longer playing with a full deck.  We're told she took Robin and fled back to the Eyrie almost immediately after Jon Arryn's death and talk of fostering Robin out, so her residence there is a fairly recent thing.  

 

I could maybe see Ned getting confused about which child he was talking about when he says he last saw Cersei nursing a child who clearly hadn't been born yet.  He's not around them on a daily basis and it happens, so whatever, but really none of these random times they're throwing around add up.  It reads like George wasn't keeping careful track of his timeline, although I suppose in the grander scheme of things this is all pretty minor quibbling stuff.  Still, now my head hurts.

[SeanC]

Though it would be surprising that Catelyn wouldn't have at least taken Sansa when she visited her sister if that was the case.

Actually, Sansa had met Lysa before:

 

It had been many years since Sansa last saw her mother's sister.  She will be kind to me for my mother's sake, surely.  She's my own blood.  And the Vale of Arryn was beautiful, all the songs said so.  Perhaps it would not be so terrible to stay here for a time. (ASOS Sansa VI, pg. 764)

[benteen]

Thanks for the passage, SeanC!

[Lady S.]

I can buy Ned seeing Cersei at the Tournament in Lannisport after the Greyjoy Rebellion but Tommen wouldn't have been born yet.  The Greyjoy Rebellion and his visit to Bear Island to meet out justice to Jorah were apparently the only time he did any traveling in the past 15 years.  I think GRRM just contradicted himself a lot with this writing.

 

I don't think Ned's visit to Bear Island was unique travel, there's no indication he stayed away from his own domains in the North. It was the south he preferred not to visit, he wasn't a total recluse holed up in Winterfell. Bran noted that Robb the Lord kept going out to visit other castles, and I assume this was another way Robb was trying to imitate Ned.

[benteen]

I don't think Ned's visit to Bear Island was unique travel, there's no indication he stayed away from his own domains in the North. It was the south he preferred not to visit, he wasn't a total recluse holed up in Winterfell. Bran noted that Robb the Lord kept going out to visit other castles, and I assume this was another way Robb was trying to imitate Ned.

 

Yeah, I should have written that better.  Ned definitely kept to his domain, the North.  But I think the trip to Bear Island was a one-time only thing and his internal monologue talks about making the long voyage there.  So that might have been the furthest he went outside his old land since the Greyjoy Rebellion.

[Lady S.]

We still haven't haven't solved how Catelyn met Renly when he was only Bran's age and probably never will, but I wanted to respond to one of Avaleigh's points from earlier. The connotations of Renly cloaking Brienne have to be deliberate, especially since Bri was infatuated with him. In her own PoV, she has that dream where Renly gave her the cloak and his face changed to Jaime's, signifying that her affections had transferred. There's also the fact Kingsguard give up the right to marry, so not only did Brienne choose the life of a knight over a wife, she chose to dedicate her life (and in this world a wife had to dedicate her life to her husband) to the man who was her fantasy, knowing he could never be her husband but happy to just find this way to be near him. 

[nodorothyparker]

Brienne's interesting like that.  We know she does have some real romanticism in her, she does at one point think about the fact that had her first betrothed not died that she would likely be a wife with a baby at her breast and she doesn't think about it in a 'oh gods, how lucky I am to have escaped such a fate' kind of way.  She's a little wistful about it.  But bad experiences with men and constantly being told she's hopeless and ugly and not a real woman have done a real number on her to the point that she doesn't feel like she can be a proper woman while never being truly a man either.  Yet she's still enough of a girl to respond to the pretty boys, first Renly and then Jaime.  She wants to be wanted, she's just resigned herself to it being forever out of her reach.

 

She breaks my heart a little on every reread.  She's the purest representation of what a knight is ideally supposed to be, but there's all this other stuff going on underneath.

Edited January 29, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

I'm curious as to how conscious Renly was about Brienne's crush and whether or not that cloak gesture (putting it on himself) was deliberately manipulative on his part.

I'll post Jon III later today.

[nodorothyparker]

I think first we'd have to know how cloaking for a king's guard spot was normally done.  Have we ever actually seen it with another character?  I don't know that we have. 

 

Edit to add:  We know from what Loras says later that Renly didn't have any great regard for her and thought her something of a freak.  As far as the crush itself though?  According to Loras, he was at least aware that she was willing to die for him and unlike everyone else around him wanted nothing beyond that for herself.  Unless he was completely clueless (which he very well may have been given some of his other actions) he probably could have extrapolated from that.  

Edited January 29, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

I'm curious as to how conscious Renly was about Brienne's crush and whether or not that cloak gesture (putting it on himself) was deliberately manipulative on his part.

I'll post Jon III later today.

 

I suspect that was Renly being manipulative.  He was mindful of Brienne's devotion to him, which is so important for a Kingsguard.  He knew she could fight and she was a logical choice for the position.  But I have such a low opinion of Renly that I think he wanted to ensure maximum loyalty.

 

I'm curious what Brienne's father would have done if Brienne had remained in Renly's Kingsguard.  He has no other heirs and he had long ago stopped trying to arrange a marriage for his daughter.  There was Endrew Tarth but he's in the Night's Watch.  That guy probably would have had a great chance at inheriting Tarth if he hadn't taken the black.

[nodorothyparker]

I've long wondered what the plan was for Tarth just like I've long been curious about Selwyn Tarth.  He deserves a fair amount of credit for not forcing his daughter into a terribly unsuitable marriage the way so many girls of our story have been and giving her the freedom to go off and play knight with Renly's encampment.  But in a world where inheritance and bloodlines matter so terribly much that some fathers are willing to kill children they consider unworthy of inheriting, he must be highly unusual indeed to really not care at all about letting some distant cousin or niece or nephew we haven't heard about inherit it all.  Unless he thinks she's going to go play soldier, get it out of her system, and then come home to try again.

[WearyTraveler]

I think first we'd have to know how cloaking for a king's guard spot was normally done.  Have we ever actually seen it with another character?  I don't know that we have. 

 

I have a picture in my head of Joffrey putting the white cloak on The Hound, but I don't know if that is in the book, on the show or just in my head! LOL!

Edited January 29, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Lady S.]

I think first we'd have to know how cloaking for a king's guard spot was normally done.  Have we ever actually seen it with another character?  I don't know that we have. 

Jaime was cloaked by his commander, Gerold Hightower. I think Joffrey had to cloak his revolving circle of Kingsguard himself but that could have been because his LC was a prisoner unavailable to do it for the king. Anyway, Renly's Kingsguard was hardly the norm with the rainbow colors and a female member and all. I think it's probable Renly did cloak all of his guards himself since his kingship was based around personal charm, the LC was his lover and the other five were likely guys who considered themselves his friends. Singling Brienne out for special treatment might have made the other guys resent her more, but doing it for all of them could make them all feel closer to their buddy, their fun, young king. 

 

ETA: I do think Renly was definitely aware of Brienne's crush, he was thoughtless, but not completely stupid. 

Edited January 29, 2016 by Lady S.

[nodorothyparker]

Even as I wrote that I kept thinking we must have gotten details about Jaime's or somebody's cloaking but I couldn't remember and my books are in such a jumble after this last move I wasn't going to go look for it.  I'm inclined to think you're right about Renly adding the personal touch since he prided himself and based much of his claim on how much he was loved.

Edited January 29, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

Jon III

 

It's been raining for six days straight and Jon and the rest of the men of the Night's Watch are still traveling through the haunted forest. They've passed seven empty villages and have finally reached Craster's Keep. The Old Bear is relieved to see that Craster hasn't vanished or died and Jon hopes that Craster will have some answers for the Lord Commander.

 

Thoren Smallwood says that Craster is a friend to the Night's Watch and that he's never turned away a ranger before. Craster also isn't a fan of Mance Rayder so he gets points from the men for that. Thoren says it's little wonder that Mance is half mad considering how long he's lived in the haunted forest.

 

Jon's just happy with the idea of getting out of the rain for awhile and having a hot meal, but he thinks about what Dywen has had to say about Craster.

 

Dywen said Craster was a kinslayer, liar, raper, and craven, and hinted that he trafficked with slavers and demons. "And worse," the old forester would add, clacking his wooden teeth. "There's a cold smell to that one, there is."

 

The Old Bear gives Jon the order to ride down the column and let everyone know that they're approaching Craster's, and instructs him to tell the officers that he doesn't want to deal with any problems regarding Craster's wives. 

 

As Jon rides down the line he eventually sees Sam and they start talking about Craster. Sam has his doubts that Craster will be all that welcoming and tells Jon that the guy marries his daughters and only obeys his own laws. He goes on to say that Craster's mother was a wildling and his father was a ranger from the Night's Watch. Sam stops himself just in time from using the word bastard so Jon says the word for him and tells Sam that it's not a big deal. He warns Sam to be careful around Craster's women even though he thinks his friend is the least likely to need a warning on that score.

 

Jon takes a shortcut on the way back to the head of the column and runs into Dywen and Grenn. Jon tells them the news that Buckwell has found Craster and Dywen is soon warning Jon and Grenn to keep away from Craster's wives.

 

Dywen spots Ghost and Jon marvels at how silently Ghost is able to move since he didn't notice Ghost's presence until Dywen called attention to it.

 

Craster's Keep is even worse than Jon imagined it would be. It's basically a four star pigsty and Jon is bummed when he realizes that most of the men are still going to have to sleep outside. Dolorous Edd tells Jon that Mormont is waiting for him inside and advises him not to bring Ghost since Ghost looks hungry enough to eat one of Craster's kids. Edd can't help but add that he's hungry enough to eat one of Craster's kids too.

 

When Jon walks inside, the entire place smells like shit and wet dogs. The roof is leaking and Jon soon sees that there's only a single room with a loft above for sleeping. Craster is the only person who has a chair and even the Old Bear has to find a spot on one of the benches.

 

Jon takes in Craster's appearance and thinks about how he looks in comparison to the wildlings from Old Nan's stories. He thinks about how Craster missed the memo on how he should be drinking blood out of a human skull.

 

Craster says that he hasn't seen Benjen Stark in three years. He does recall seeing Ser Waymar Royce, Will, and Gared though and mentions how his wives all thought Royce was hot. Craster thought Gared was all right and laughed about how Gared had even fewer ears than he has. Craster has heard about Gared's death. Jon thinks back to Gared's execution and how Theon had kicked Gared's head.

 

Mormont offers to have some men escort Craster and his wives south to the Wall but Craster rejects the offer and says he'll serve no man. He grabs one of his wives by the wrist and forces her to tell Mormont how content she is. She says that it's better to die free than to be a slave.

 

Mormont elaborates on how serious the situation is and explains that Craster and his family are the first living faces they've seen since they've left the Wall. He tells Craster about the wight attack too but Craster insists that the only thing he's currently in need of is a new axe.

 

Buckwell asks Craster about Mance Rayder and Craster explains that the reason the villages are empty is because Mance is having all of the wildlings come over to him. He wanted Craster and his wives to come over as well, but Craster set Mance's messenger back without his tongue and says that he has no interest in groveling at the feet of the King-beyond-the-Wall.

 

Craster lays down the ground rules and says that he only has food and beer for twenty men. Mormont says that they're more than happy to share their food and wine so Craster perks up a bit and says he's cool with the crows sharing their wine. Craster says that any man who lays a hand on one of his wives will end up losing that hand. Mormont seems uneasy about this but doesn't object.

 

Craster asks if any of the men are able to make a map so Jon volunteers Sam for the job. Mormont asks Jon to go and tell Tollett to get his axe as a gift for Craster. As Jon goes to leave, Craster notices him and says that he has the look of a Stark. Mormont introduces Jon as his steward and squire and Craster immediately comments on Jon's bastard status. He comments that he thinks men who go to bed with a woman ought to marry that woman.

 

Dolorous Edd is taking care of the horses and he jokes with Jon for a bit about the wisdom of giving a man like Craster a sharp axe to wield. He says he won't be surprised if the axe end up in the back of Mormont's skull one day.

 

Ghost is freaking out one of Craster's wives and she's shouting at him to get away from her. Jon tells the girl that Ghost won't hurt her and explains that he was only hungry. Jon sees that the girl is only about fifteen or sixteen and is in the early stages of pregnancy. He asks if she's one of Craster's daughters and she replies that she's one of his wives these days.

 

The girl's shouting at Ghost has attracted attention and now Lark and Chett are teasing the girl and Jon. Chett is going out of his way to frighten her about Ghost so Jon tells him to stop, but the girl ends up running away and explains that she's not supposed to be talking to them anyway.

 

Chett blames Jon for Sam taking over his job as steward to Maester Aemon and tells Jon that he may be the Lord Commander's pet but he's not the Lord Commander, and he wouldn't be so bold if he didn't have a direwolf to back him up. Lark and Chett both continue to taunt Jon but he says that he's not going to fight one of his brothers while they're beyond the Wall.

 

Jon goes to find Sam and says that after they eat the Old Bear wants him to help make a map because Craster is going to help them find Mance Rayder. Sam isn't exactly thrilled at the idea of meeting Craster even if it does mean he'll be able to keep warm.

 

After dinner, Sam goes off to Craster's and Jon goes to sleep hoping that the Old Bear will learn something that will help them find Benjen.

 

When Jon wakes up, the forest looks as though it has turned to crystal and this makes Jon think of his sisters. He thinks that Sansa would think it a beautiful enchantment that would bring her to tears. He thinks Arya would want to shout, laugh, and touch everything.

 

Jon's thoughts are interrupted by the girl who'd been frightened by Ghost. Jon sees that she's wearing Sam's cloak and wonders why. The girl tells Jon that Sam said she'd find him there. She asks Jon if it's true that he's a brother to a king and Jon confirms that he's the half brother to the King in the North.

 

Jon is nervous that Craster will be angry with the girl but she says that her father drank too much wine so should be sleeping it off for most of the day. She cuts to the chase and begs Jon to take her with them when they leave. She offers to be his wife and says that Jon wouldn't even be breaking the guest right rule since he didn't sleep under Craster's roof or eat his food. She explains that she wants to leave for the safety of her baby.

 

Jon tells the girl that he doesn't even know her name so she introduces herself as Gilly. Jon thinks about how Sansa once told him that a man should always compliment a woman on her name so he hopes that Gilly will be flattered by this courtesy even though he isn't going to be able to help her.

 

Gilly says that she's worried for her baby if it's a boy. She's says it won't be so bad if the baby is a girl because then she'll get to keep it and eventually the girl would go on to marry Craster. If it's a boy, Gilly explains that Craster give the boys to the gods and that they've been coming more frequently. So frequently in fact that Craster has had to start giving them sheep even though he really enjoys his mutton. One of Craster's wives has told Gilly that she's carrying a boy and since this wife has given birth to six boys herself, Gilly thinks the woman knows what she's talking about.

 

Jon asks about the gods and Gilly explains that they're 'cold gods' and this immediately makes Jon think of the wight attack. He asks what color their eyes are and Gilly confirms that they're 'as bright as blue stars.'

 

Gilly asks to be taken only as far as the Wall but Jon says that they aren't headed for the Wall and that she and the baby wouldn't be safe with them. She asks if she can travel with them on the way back and Jon says that would be something for the Old Bear to decide. He tells Gilly that he's only a squire and she tells him that she thought he'd be able to help her since kings supposedly help keep people safe. She tells him that she's sorry to have troubled him and runs away in despair. Jon is upset with her for coming to him and even more upset with Sam for giving her the idea. He thinks that they're there to fight wildlings not save them.

 

Jon has breakfast with Dywen, Grenn, and the others and Dywen is joking about having slept with three of Craster's women. Jon soon leaves to see Mormont and is told that they're going to ride within the hour. Mormont offers Jon some of the breakfast that Craster has provided but Jon suddenly decides that he's not going to eat Craster's food.

 

Behind the hall, Sam is being helped back into his cloak by Gilly and when she sees Jon she immediately goes away. Sam tells Jon that he thought he'd help Gilly and Jon asks Sam how exactly it is that he's supposed to have done that. Sam confesses that he told Gilly that he'd take her with them on the way back. Jon asks Sam if he's out of his mind and says there's no way the Old Bear is going to be cool with them taking one of Craster's wives.

 

Jon is annoyed with Sam and thinks that for all his intelligence he can be as stupid as Grenn is at times. He thinks that taking Gilly with them is impossible not to mention dishonorable. At the same time, he wonders why he feels so guilty.

 

Jon takes his place riding alongside Mormont and states that Craster doesn't have any sons or any sheep. Jon says at Winterfell there was a woman who told them stories about wildlings who would have sex with the Others and produce half human children. Mormont instantly dismisses this and says those are just stories ; he then asks Jon if Craster seems less than human and Jon thinks to himself that there are all kinds of ways that Craster doesn't seem human in his opinion.

 

Jon soon understands that Mormont already knows that Craster sacrifices his sons and that Thoren Smallwood told him about it a long time ago. It appears that all of the rangers were aware, Benjen included.

 

"All the rangers," Mormont repeated. "You think I ought to stop him. Kill him if need be." The Old Bear sighed. "Were it only that he wished to rid himself of some mouths, I'd gladly send Yoren or Conwys to collect the boys. We could raise them to the black and the Watch would be that much the stronger. But the wildlings serve crueler gods than you or I. These boys are Craster's offerings. His prayers, if you will."

 

Mormont wonders how Jon found all of this out and Jon admits that one of Craster's wives told him but adds that he'd rather not say which one since she came to him in confidence because she was afraid and wanted help.

 

Mormont says that it would be nice if some people could just help themselves and paints the scenario of a passed out Craster being surrounded by the women he regularly terrorizes with his axe just lying around practically begging to be picked up. Mormont acknowledges that it'll be a bad day for the Night's Watch if Craster were to die because there have been many times where his keep has been the difference between life and death to various rangers over the years.

 

Jon tells Mormont that his father once told him that there are some men in the world who are not worth having. Mormont replies that a bannerman who is unjust ends up bringing dishonor onto his liege lord as well. Craster though is his own man and isn't a reflection of the Night's Watch. Mormont says they have other wars to fight anyway.

 

Jon comments that Buckwell says he'll need his sword soon, and Mormont confirms that Mance Rayder is gathering the wildlings and that Craster has told them where they'll be. Jon asks if Mance is making a city or an army and Mormont says that's the big question along with how many men they have of fighting age.

 

Mormont believes that Mance plans to invade the Seven Kingdoms and Jon talks about how other wildlings in the past have tried to invade the realm like Raymun Redbeard and Bael the Bard.

 

"Aye, and long before them came the Horned Lord and the brother kings Gendel and Gorne, and in ancient days Joramun, who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. Each man of them broke his strength on the Wall, or was broken by the power of Winterfell on the far side . . . but the Night's Watch is only a shadow of what we were, and who remains to oppose the wildlings besides us? The Lord of Winterfell is dead, and his heir has marched his strength south to fight the Lannisters. The wildlings may never again have such a chance as this. I knew Mance Rayder, Jon. He is an oathbreaker, yes . . . but he has eyes to see, and no man has ever dared to name him faintheart."

 

Jon asks what they'll do and Mormont says that they'll have to find him and fight him so that they can stop him. Jon wonders how three hundred men are going to fare against the wildlings.

[Avaleigh]

I love how there's so much stuff that I don't remember. I definitely forgot all about Craster giving animal sacrifices too. I really don't know what to make of this because to me it suggests that the Others simply want offerings as opposed to humans that they can turn into Others. I find it odd that there aren't more wildlings who would be willing to give into the Others out of desperation and fear. I mean, if a sheep or two is going to hold them back you'd think more people would have figured this out if a guy like Craster was able to. 

 

The other thing that I kind of paused over is Dywen saying that Craster is cold. To me it sounded as though he were saying that Craster is cold physically. That on top of Jon thinking that Craster doesn't seem human made me wonder if Craster's wildling mother was actually an Other or even a half Other. How is it that this guy is the only wildling that we know of who is paying tribute to the Others? Could someone have told him what to do? Why are we again reminded of Old Nan's stories about the Others breeding with humans? Any time it's Old Nan I'm inclined to at least consider the idea even if it does seem farfetched. 

 

Then we have Mormont flat out asking Jon if Craster seems human to him. I'm not convinced by any means but there was enough in this chapter to keep me open to the possibility that we're going to learn more about Craster even though he's long dead. 

 

My heart kind of broke when Gilly was explaining that life for a girl baby wouldn't be so bad because I'm just like 'what???' Being one of Craster's daughters sounds just as bad if not worse than being turned into an Other as a baby.

 

I really do appreciate what Edd brings to Jon's chapters. I wish his character had more lines on the show. I kind of got the chills when he made the comment about how that axe might end up in the back of Mormont's head. 

 

So the rabbit doesn't count as being Craster's because Jon ate it outside? Interesting that Jon instinctively doesn't want to take anything from Craster. It's like he's reserving the right to have to kill this guy if he needs to without upsetting the bread/salt thing.

 

Nineteen women, a drunk and passed out Craster, and Sam is the only one who gets friendly with one of the wives? I guess. I feel like in that sort of set up that a couple would be willing to throw caution to the wind. During my first read, I definitely remember thinking that somebody would lose their hand and that this would be a kind of test for both Jon and Mormont. 

 

I liked getting the mention of the Horn of Winter even though I don't think it's going to amount to being anything on the show. I liked the mention of Bael the Bard too. 

[nodorothyparker]

I never quite know what to make of Craster either, or of Jon and Mormont's talk about him.   He's a disgusting, filthy old man and I think I just want him to just be that rather than getting some otherworldly explanation for how he's being left alone to breed the next generation of wife-slaves.  But I supposed that doesn't really fully explain the deal he has going when all the surrounding villages apparently had to leave and join up with Mance or die.

 

Gilly makes me sad too.  But if you're isolated enough to know nothing else of the world, living in filth and submitting to your brutish husband-daddy probably does seem like the preferable deal to being left in the freezing woods as a sacrifice.  I keep wanting to ask Sam what exactly was he really thinking promising her Jon as a way out.  Sure, he's got the relations even they aren't anywhere close enough to actually do anything for him.  Sam's been in the Nights Watch long enough by this point though to know that they don't give Jon carte blanche to just do whatever he wants or that as Mormont's steward Jon isn't going to go against him to risk upsetting a man they've been told over and over is a valuable ally.

 

I do think it again says something about the relative privilege Jon's had despite being a bastard that he automatically assumed Craster's Keep would be much grander and big enough to host them all.

[Lady S.]

“I’ll . . . I’ll be your wife, if you like. My father, he’s got nineteen now, one less won’t hurt him none.”

(I know less is considered ok when talking about one person, but every time I see the word I think of tv Stannis.)

 

I love how there's so much stuff that I don't remember. I definitely forgot all about Craster giving animal sacrifices too. I really don't know what to make of this because to me it suggests that the Others simply want offerings as opposed to humans that they can turn into Others. I find it odd that there aren't more wildlings who would be willing to give into the Others out of desperation and fear. I mean, if a sheep or two is going to hold them back you'd think more people would have figured this out if a guy like Craster was able to. 

 

The other thing that I kind of paused over is Dywen saying that Craster is cold. To me it sounded as though he were saying that Craster is cold physically. That on top of Jon thinking that Craster doesn't seem human made me wonder if Craster's wildling mother was actually an Other or even a half Other. How is it that this guy is the only wildling that we know of who is paying tribute to the Others? Could someone have told him what to do? Why are we again reminded of Old Nan's stories about the Others breeding with humans? Any time it's Old Nan I'm inclined to at least consider the idea even if it does seem farfetched. 

 

Then we have Mormont flat out asking Jon if Craster seems human to him. I'm not convinced by any means but there was enough in this chapter to keep me open to the possibility that we're going to learn more about Craster even though he's long dead.

I too wonder what the Others do with Craster's sheep. I'm not sure they actually want the sheep, instead of Craster just offering whatever he could, afraid of what would happen if he gave them nothing.

 

I'm not one inclined to believe Craster or Roose Bolton are white walker-hybrids, to me, it's more scary to think these are human beings capable of such evil and inhuman acts. Which I think was what the comments about Craster's humanity were getting at. Some of the ways Jon thinks him less than human surely have to do with raising his daughters as sex slaves, which is not something the Others need him to do, and getting rid of all his infant sons would also qualify even without the white walker connection there.

 

There are a lot of mysteries surrounding Craster though. Here he send Mormont's group off to an eventual wight ambush, and before that Waymar and his rangers had also stopped by before walking into a white walker ambush. That's a suspicious coincidence, isn't it? And if he's lying about knowing where Waymar went, he could also be lying about not seeing Benjen on his last ranging, as part of an effort to sidetrack Jeor from the missing rangers.

My heart kind of broke when Gilly was explaining that life for a girl baby wouldn't be so bad because I'm just like 'what???' Being one of Craster's daughters sounds just as bad if not worse than being turned into an Other as a baby.

IKR? She's grown up so desensitized to incest and rape. It was also hard to think that in their last meeting, Jon forces her to give up the baby, after everything she went through to save her son, and that baby switch was all for nothing since Mel never planned on sacrificing Mance and Mance Jr. I really hope Gilly survives in the Reach and can find some happiness.

I really do appreciate what Edd brings to Jon's chapters. I wish his character had more lines on the show. I kind of got the chills when he made the comment about how that axe might end up in the back of Mormont's head.

Don't forget the bear skull on Craster's gate, not unlike the dead direwolf in the first book, except the direwolf corpse wasn't at Ned's place of death.

So the rabbit doesn't count as being Craster's because Jon ate it outside? Interesting that Jon instinctively doesn't want to take anything from Craster. It's like he's reserving the right to have to kill this guy if he needs to without upsetting the bread/salt thing.

I guess because Craster didn't give him the rabbit, Ghost stole it. Guest right probably isn't meant to apply to thieves, even if Jon meant to make restitution. 

 

This chapter is, I think, the first mention of guest right, which wouldn't have meant anything on a first read as it's only explained in Storm. Just like the cloaking thing, the bridal cloak tradition only being introduced at Sansa and Tyrion's wedding. Here, there's another instance of a man giving a woman a cloak, with Sam lending his to Gilly, his future lover, and a girl he wants to protect even if he doesn't yet believe he can do it himself.

 

Funny how Jon thought Sam was the one man who didn't need to be warned about Craster's girls, yet it seems Sam was the only one who really disobeyed the warning.

 

I wonder how sincere Mormont was in his offer to escort Craster and his wives South, since women aren't meant to be at Castle Black. Or was offering to let them go farther south than that? All the other wildlings have to stay north of the Wall, but "not a friend to the Watch"? Except this supposed friendship is also why Jeor doesn't want Craster to leave or be killed, so I have to wonder if he only asked because he knew Craster would refuse.

[nodorothyparker]

I'm not one inclined to believe Craster or Roose Bolton are white walker-hybrids, to me, it's more scary to think these are human beings capable of such evil and inhuman acts. Which I think was what the comments about Craster's humanity were getting at. Some of the ways Jon thinks him less than human surely have to do with raising his daughters as sex slaves, which is not something the Others need him to do, and getting rid of all his infant sons would also qualify even without the white walker connection there.

 

Quote function's going all wonky for me but I've always thought this is kind of the point that the fanbase that thinks everything evil has to be secret white walkers or bastard Targaryens or faceless men or whatever is missing.  Plenty of people manage to be truly awful all on their own.  Evil doesn't always have to have a reason other than just because it can.

 

That's interesting if this is the first real mention of guest right, considering how we know this story turns out too.  By now it's been so long since I first read the books and I've reread them out of order enough that it feels like something I've always just known and can't remember at all where I first became aware of it.

Edited January 30, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

I have to admit wondering for a while why Mormont didn't have Craster killed but I definitely understand it.  As disgusting and worthy of death as Craster is, he provides the one safe haven the Night's Watch has Beyond the Wall.  If the Night Watch claimed Craster's Keep, they would know doubt be attacked by the Wildlings.  It's kind of a surprise that Craster hasn't been attacked by other Wildings considering there are no other men to defend his home.  I guess it's more of a Wildlings "every man is free" sort of thing though it doesn't sound like they're too fond of him too.  At least Mormont acknowledges that if one of Craster's wives kills him, he personally wouldn't mind though it would be bad for the Watch.

 

Mormont sending his men to escort Craster's wives and children back to the Wall would have been a nightmare waiting to happen.

 

Totally agreed about Edd.  Love his line that he's hungry enough to eat one of Craster's kids.  I wish we'd get more Dolorous Edd humor on the show.  Missed opportunity.

 

But credit to D&D for actually picking up the Craster's sons storyline and making it one of the more intriguing things on the show.  I didn't remember that either that Craster was sacrificing sheep to the Others.  A shame he didn't stop there.

 

Love Jon thinking about what Sansa and Arya's reaction to the ice would have been.

[WearyTraveler]

I think Jon chapters are my favorite chapters of all.  I like Jon's evolution in the series.  Here we see his prejudices and the stereotypes he carries around with him product of his upbringing in Winterfell, and yet we also see that he is open minded enough to consider alternative view points, and we also see how some of his character traits are so ingrained they will never change completely.  He can see there's nothing he can do for Gilly or any of the other Craster victims, yet he doesn't feel good about it.

 

Out of the Stark children, I think Jon is the one that evolves the fastest, the most flexible and the one more open to new ideas and to change.  I love him for that.

[Avaleigh]

Quote function's going all wonky for me but I've always thought this is kind of the point that the fanbase that thinks everything evil has to be secret white walkers or bastard Targaryens or faceless men or whatever is missing.  Plenty of people manage to be truly awful all on their own.  Evil doesn't always have to have a reason other than just because it can.

 

That's interesting if this is the first real mention of guest right, considering how we know this story turns out too.  By now it's been so long since I first read the books and I've reread them out of order enough that it feels like something I've always just known and can't remember at all where I first became aware of it.

I don't believe that Roose is half white walker or a vampire or anything like that. Before reading this chapter again, I'd never considered it. The main things that gave me pause are Old Nan because I'm inclined to lean towards believing her (and Osha) when it comes to stuff like this. Dywen seems like he knows a few things too and for him to describe him as physically being cold as opposed to emotionally being cold was interesting to me. Add in his unique situation with the Others and I won't be surprised if there's more to this guy than meets the eye. I don't think it's super likely since the character is dead but I don't think it's impossible. 

 

I definitely feel that there are plenty of characters who are awful on their own without some other worldly explanation. I personally only think there's one bastard Targaryen. I don't think Aegon is real and I suspect that Jon is legitimate.

 

As far as whether or not there will be a pay off with the Faceless Men--I have to assume that there's going to be a twist here given how much time the show has spent on the House of Black and White. Seeing Arya see her own face in their creeped me out. No way do I think that they aren't going to be responsible for another familiar face being used at one point. I'm fine with it being Euron but I also like the idea of it being Missandei.  

[Avaleigh]

Theon II

 

Theon is admiring his new longship and thinks it's beautiful. A woman notices how entranced Theon is with his ship and begins a conversation with him. He sees right away that she's Ironborn, likes the way she looks, and immediately starts flirting with her. He tells her how hard he is for her so she checks to see and tells him that he isn't lying. She asks him how much it hurts and claims that it's too bad for him since she's newly married and pregnant. Theon thinks this is good news and tells her that she won't have to worry about getting pregnant with his bastard.

 

When the woman says that she's been with lords before and that they aren't different than any other men, Theon asks her if she's ever been with a prince and tells her that she can tell her grandkids all about how she loved a king once upon a time.

 

Theon even offers to name his longship after the woman and she tells him that he should since she's the one who built the ship. The woman says her name is Esgred and she claims to be married to Sigrin the shipwright. Theon tells Esgred that she's wasted on Sigrin and she replies that Sigrin says this longship is going to be wasted on Theon.

 

Theon totally bristles when Esgred says this and pulls the 'Do you know who I am?' card. Esgred replies that he's Prince Theon of House Greyjoy and asks him how much he loves his new ship because she'll want to tell Sigrin. Theon admits that Sigrin did a good job and asks if the ship is as fast as it looks. Esgred says that it's faster if the master knows how to handle it.

 

Theon says that it's been a few years since he sailed a ship and admits that he's never actually captained one before. He seems confident that he'll learn fast though because he's a Greyjoy. Esgred says that if he sails the way he talks that he'll end up with his blood in the sea. Theon says that he'd never mistreat such a fair maiden so Esgred corrects him and says that she's a sea bitch. Theon thinks this is the perfect name for his ship.

 

Esgred wants to know what happened to him naming the ship after her, so Theon goes back to trying to get her to agree to have sex with him. Esgred flirts with him, puts her hand back on his pants, and asks him if he plans on steering his ship with his cock.

 

Theon decides that he wants to bring Esgred to Pyke and tells her that his father will be feasting all of his captains that evening. Esgred tells him how good she is with ropes and knots as she unlaces his breeches with one hand. She then steps away from Theon and again tells him it's too bad that she's married with a baby on the way. Theon is flustered and quickly laces his pants back up.

 

After more flirting where Esgred tells Theon how much she likes being on top, Esgred finally agrees to ride with Theon to his castle. As they're going through Lordsport to get Theon's horse, Theon notices that people are bowing their heads and being more respectful to him in general. He thinks to himself that it's about time people start recognizing who he is.

 

Esgred seems to know a lot of the men and asks Theon if he's gone about choosing his crew yet. Theon realizes that he's been gone too long to tell one man from another. He thinks that anyone he used to play with is either gone, dead, or someone he'd no longer recognize.

 

As Esgred calls out to various men and seems to know them and their wives, Theon comments on how well known she is so Esgred says that everyone kind of has to love the shipwright's wife if they don't want their ship to sink.

 

Esgred advises Theon on how to select men for his crew and Theon thinks that he's humoring her by listening to what she has to say. Esgred says that she'll help Theon choose his men if he treats her kindly.

 

Lord Balon isn't allowing any ships to leave Lordsport because he doesn't want word reaching the mainland about his plans until he's ready to strike.

 

They pass the captain's daughter as she calls out to Theon but Theon ignores her. Esgred asks Theon about the captain's daughter and he's upfront about the situation and tells her that the girl just wants to be his salt wife.

 

Theon finds his squire Wex winning at dice and when Wex ignores him, Theon pulls him out of the game by his ear. Wex grabs his winnings and follows along silently. Theon likes that Wex isn't talkative and thinks about how the kid was supposedly born dumb.

 

When Wex sees Esgred, his eyes go all big and Theon thinks that the kid is acting as though he's never seen a woman before. Theon orders Wex to get the horses ready.

 

Esgred is genuinely impressed by Theon's mount and asks its name. Theon tells her that the horse is named Smiler and says that a man once told him that he smiles at all of the wrong things. Esgred asks Theon if it's true and he replies that this is only true in the opinion of men who never smile. This makes him think of his father and his uncle Aeron.

 

Theon pulls Esgred in front of him and they set off. Once they're past Lannisport, Theon starts feeling Esgred up again so she tells him to focus on controlling the horse before they end up falling off of it.

 

After telling Esgred about the battle in the Whispering Wood, he starts touching her breasts again and she tells him that he doesn't want to do this. She also points out that Wex is watching but Theon doesn't see what the big deal is and says that Wex knows how to keep his mouth shut. Esgred forces Theon to keep his hands to himself.

 

Esgred asks Theon to tell her about his father and asks if Lord Balon will welcome her into his castle. Theon says he doesn't think his father would be welcoming at all considering the way he welcomed home his son and heir. Esgred asks Theon if he's really the heir and says that she's heard that he has a sister, brothers and uncles.

 

"My brothers are long dead, and my sister . . . well, they say Asha's favorite gown is a chainmail hauberk that hangs down past her knees, with boiled leather smallclothes beneath. Men's garb won't make her a man, though. I'll make a good marriage alliance with her once we've won the war, if I can find a man to take her. As I recall, she had a nose like a vulture's beak, a ripe crop of pimples, and no more chest than a boy."

 

Esgred says that Theon might be able to marry off his sister but there are still his uncles to consider. Theon admits to himself that his uncles could be a threat especially if the history of the Ironborn is anything to go by. He tells himself that he isn't weak and tells Esgred that Aeron's not a problem because he's a religious fanatic. He says that Victarion isn't smart enough or ambitious enough and seems confident that Victarion would serve him loyally when the time comes.

 

Esgred says that she's heard Euron is pretty cunning and terrible things are said about him in general.

 

Theon shifted his seat. "My uncle Euron has not been seen in the islands for close on two years. He may be dead." If so, it might be for the best. Lord Balon's eldest brother had never given up the Old Way, even for a day. His Silence, with its black sails and dark red hull, was infamous in every port from Ibben to Asshai, it was said.

 

Esgred says that Euron may be dead and even if he is alive, he's been gone so long that he'll seem like a stranger to the Ironborn. She says that the Ironborn will never want a stranger to sit on the Seastone Chair. Theon agrees with Esgred and then wishes he hadn't since he too might seem like a stranger to the Ironborn.

 

Theon tells Esgred that he's going to have to sit at his father's right hand during the feast but says he'll come down to sit with her after his father leaves. Balon doesn't drink much these days and Esgred comments that it's a sad thing when great men get old. Theon replies that Lord Balon is merely the father of a great man and Esgred makes a crack about how 'modest' Theon is.

 

Esgred wants to know what she should wear to the feast and Theon offers her one of his mother's old gowns. Esgred asks if Theon plans on seeing his mother and Theon says he's too busy to go now but might after the war. Esgred kind of guilt trips Theon and he complains that she's sounding like a woman.

 

Esgred wants to know more about the King in the North and the Lannisters. Theon starts telling her about the war and Winterfell and he's surprised by how much he enjoys talking to her. He feels as if he's known her for years and thinks that if she's good in bed too that he'll have to find a way to keep her.

 

When they finally get to the castle, Theon helps Esgred dismount and she's soon welcomed by the hounds. A stableman comes over and ignores Theon's order to see to his horse. Instead the guy smiles and addresses Esgred as "Lady Asha". Asha tells the man that she's just returned from Great Wyk and says that her little brother Theon was nice enough to give her a ride back from Lordsport.

 

All Theon can do is stand and stare in disbelief that Esgred is actually his sister Asha. He asks her why she didn't tell him who she was and she explains that she wanted to see who he was first. She bows to him in a mocking sort of way and leaves so that she can go and get ready for the feast.

 

Wex is smirking in amusement and Theon starts hitting him for enjoying the scene and for not warning him about the woman's real identity.

 

Back in his room, Theon is still reeling from shock and embarrassment. He drinks wine and watches the sun set as he thinks about how he has no place among the Ironborn. He thinks Asha is the reason he has no place and wishes that the Others would take her.

 

Theon gets ready for the feast and dresses in plain clothes. He's annoyed that he has no ornament to wear to dress up his outfit. He thinks back to the wildling he killed to save Bran and curses his luck that he's only managed to kill poor people.

 

Nearly four hundred men are at the feast and all of the prominent families on the Iron Islands seem to be represented. Lord Balon is seated on the Seastone Chair and Asha is seated on his right. Balon tells Theon that he's late and Theon begs his pardon. Theon sits down next to Asha and hisses at her that she's in his place. She looks at him and tells him that he's mistaken because his place is in Winterfell.

Asha taunts Theon by asking him what happened to all of his pretty clothes and whether or not he's still craving her mother's milk. Theon asks for more wine and already seems pretty wasted. He comforts himself and thinks that if he ends up puking at least it'll end up on Asha.

 

Theon says that every word she told him was a lie but Asha points out that she was being quite truthful when she said that she likes being on top. He starts talking about how she lied about being married and pregnant and Asha says that the part about the marriage was true enough as well. She calls to one of the men playing the finger dance and he promptly throws her an axe. She catches it easily and splits Theon's trencher with it.

 

Asha says that the axe is her lord husband and then takes the dirk out from between her breasts and says that the dirk is her suckling babe. Everyone in the hall laughs and Theon soon realizes that they're all laughing at him. Victarion is laughing too and even Balon is smiling. Theon forces himself to smile and thinks that they'll see who's still laughing after all is said and done.

 

Asha tells Theon that if he'd ever bothered to learn anything about Sigrin that she would never have been able to fool him. She says he's been a wolf for ten years and now and seems to think that he can come back to the islands and easily fall into the role of prince. She asks why men should fight and die for him when he doesn't even know them. Theon replies that he's the lawful prince of the men and Asha tells him that they have their own laws on the Iron Islands. She asks her brother if he's forgotten.

 

Theon thinks about how he's waited half his life to come home and now that he's here it's nonstop mockery and disregard. He thinks that this isn't the Pyke he remembers and then wonders if he ever really did remember.

 

Balon rises and tells all of the people on the dais to head to his solar so that they can start making their plans. Theon goes to leave with them but Asha teases him for scampering after their father with such eagerness, so Theon sits back down and insists that he'll run for no man. Asha asks him if he runs after every woman and Theon goes back to being defensive saying that she's the one who grabbed his cock. She says that Theon was pretty quick to start grabbing her too.

 

Theon explains that he's 'a man with a man's hunger' and asks Asha what sort of 'unnatural creature' she is. Asha tells him that she's a shy maid and then reaches out to grab his cock again. Theon practically jumps out of the chair when she does this and tells her that he's decided that marriage isn't for her. He says when he starts ruling that he'll have her packed off to join the silent sisters.

 

Theon has to cross one of the bridges to get to Balon's solar, but he's drunk and his stomach is churning. He manages to make it across by pretending that the rope he has to clutch is Asha's neck.

 

Inside of Balon's solar, Balon is talking with his brothers. Theon comes in and Balon announces that it's time to go over the plans. Theon says that he has a few suggestions but Balon doesn't want to hear it and says that he'll ask for Theon's counsel if he requires it.

 

Theon is told that he'll be given eight longships and his assignment is to head north and raid fishing villages in an effort to get some of the northern lords to leave their castles to take care of the problem. Theon feels like he's been slapped in the face. Not only does he think that this is work meant for a common reaver but the fact that Dagmer Cleftjaw will be coming along will mean that Theon's command will basically be in name only.

 

Asha is being given thirty longships and her assignment is to take Deepwood Motte. Asha says that she's always wanted a castle and Balon tells her that she should take one.

 

Victarion is given the task of trying to take and hold Moat Cailin. Balon says that the Neck is the key to kingdom and says that once they hold Moat Cailin there's no way that Robb will be able to win back the North.

 

Theon tries to interrupt with his doubts but Balon doesn't want to hear what he has to say. The Greyjoys have a 'What is dead may never die' moment and then the meeting is over.

 

As Theon is crossing the bridge on the way back he ends up falling to his knees. Asha helps her brother to his feet and lectures him about his inability to hold his wine. Theon leans on his sister and tells her that he liked her better when she was Esgred. Asha laughs and says that's fair enough. She says that she liked Theon more when he was nine.

[Avaleigh]

If there's an Asha moment that I wish had made it into the show it's Asha's line about how the axe is her husband and the dirk is her baby. 

 

I mainly remembered Asha pushing Theon away. I didn't remember her actually unlacing his trousers and grabbing his cock so many times. I do wonder what was going through Wex's head during that ride. I feel sorry for some of these squires. They can't help who they get paired up with. 

 

Did Balon misspeak at the end when he talks about his sons as opposed to his children? He calls her his daughter at least once in this chapter so I don't think he thinks of her as a son so I'm assuming that was just a mistake. 

 

Victarion laughing at Theon during that moment seems unlike the Victarion we end up meeting later who doesn't like laughter in general. 

 

I love Theon walking right into Asha's criticism of Euron only to realize that it applies to himself even more. 

 

What does Theon mean he hasn't sailed a ship in a few years? Do we have reason to think that he's ever sailed a ship? Was he just lying when he said that. He truthfully admits to never having captained one.

 

Those bridges might not be the climb down from the Eyrie but it still sounds incredibly frightening and I can't imagine doing it if you've have anything to drink let alone being fall down drunk the way that Theon was. 

 

Was it Ned who said that Theon always smiles at the wrong time? Jon? 

 

Theon's comment about how Balon is the father of a great man reminded me of Cersei thinking something along the lines of how Tywin will only be remembered for having been her father. 

[Lady S.]

I mainly remembered Asha pushing Theon away. I didn't remember her actually unlacing his trousers and grabbing his cock so many times.

I always forget just how many times she did it, going in for a third crotch grab at the table after he knew who she was, just to freak him out. The Greyjoys are another family with major boundary issues.

I wonder if the Qarl in the trio of men they run into was Asha's boy toy or another Qarl.

 

Did Balon misspeak at the end when he talks about his sons as opposed to his children? He calls her his daughter at least once in this chapter so I don't think he thinks of her as a son so I'm assuming that was just a mistake.

I took that as a Freudian slip, I do think he sees Asha as a replacement son and might not have thought much of her if his elder sons had lived.

 

Victarion laughing at Theon during that moment seems unlike the Victarion we end up meeting later who doesn't like laughter in general.

Nice catch, a little more early installment weirdness. I was just thinking that even Theon had Vic pegged right as "a great grey bullock". Vic has all of one line here and doesn't show up in further Theon chapters like Asha and Aeron do because Theon's assessment really does sum him up without needing to learn more.

 

Was it Ned who said that Theon always smiles at the wrong time? Jon?

That's something I've always wondered because we never actually saw anyone say that at Winterfell. I don't think it was Ned, though, I think Theon's inner monologue would mention if it was Ned.

 

Balon's idiocy only grows here, not wanting any input from the only one there who actually knows the North, and thinking taking Moat Cailin and Deepwood Motte would mean conquering the entire North. Moat Cailin's strength is against attacks from the South, it could still be re-taken from the northern side. It's only because Theon took Winterfell and Ramsay killed Ser Rodrik and his forces that the ironborn infestation lasted as long as it did.

[nodorothyparker]

It was in this chapter I began to wonder if there were any sibling pairings anywhere in this universe except for maybe the Stark family that had any sense of sexual boundaries.  I realize Asha and Theon hadn't seen each other in 9 years and he didn't even recognize her, but still ...

 

Theon is so cluelessly arrogant here but you can still feel at least a little bad for him.  It's not his fault he was taken away as a child and none of these people seemingly know or care who he is now.  Of course he doesn't have any relevant experience raiding or captaining ships.  Still, I never care much for the Ironborn.  They always strike me as tremendous meatheads and make me think they probably smell bad.

[Avaleigh]

It was in this chapter I began to wonder if there were any sibling pairings anywhere in this universe except for maybe the Stark family that had any sense of sexual boundaries.  I realize Asha and Theon hadn't seen each other in 9 years and he didn't even recognize her, but still ...

 

Theon is so cluelessly arrogant here but you can still feel at least a little bad for him.  It's not his fault he was taken away as a child and none of these people seemingly know or care who he is now.  Of course he doesn't have any relevant experience raiding or captaining ships.  Still, I never care much for the Ironborn.  They always strike me as tremendous meatheads and make me think they probably smell bad.

I feel the same way about the people of the North for the most part. Those who stick to the old ways. AWOIAF basically sealed the deal for me. Between all of the first night rape stuff in addition to the melees that would destroy small villages, I just feel like I have no time for these people.

[benteen]

Wow, I had forgotten that Victarion first appeared in this book.

 

Asha grabbing Theon's cock STILL makes her the most normal and well-adjusted member of the Greyjoy family.

 

Theon is a meathead but Balon is still a fool for not trusting him sooner.  Balon is just "evolved" enough to view his daughter as a true heir but not smart enough to realize he could get a lot of information from his son and that he could have a loyal ally if he just showed him some love.  Cersei could have had a loyal ally with Tyrion if she had shown him some love too.  Theon's plan for taking Winterfell would have been brilliant if he had left the place with the valuable hostages he had taken.

[John Potts]

Gods, Theon is such a dick here, though you do kind of wonder just how far she would have gone with Theon, what with all the mutual groping and such (I reckon she'd happily go so far as to get naked and then reveal her identity which is all kinds of f-ed up). It seems odd that he's managed to create such a sense of entitlement given that it seems hard to imagine Ned taught him that (I imagine Robb would be slapped down for taking such an attitude, let alone Theon) and it seems the Ironborn are all about proving yourself by being the biggest swinging dick around, so... yeah, Theon, you're a jumped up pipsqueak and get over yourself.

 

benteen Wow, I had forgotten that Victarion first appeared in this book.

 

 

Me too! Though you're right - no matter how much Balon resented his son for being a hostage, he still knows Ned a lot better than his father. But why be sensible when you can be an idiot?

[DigitalCount]

Maybe it's just me, maybe it's because I have a sister, maybe it's because I was ill the first time I read this book, but I have always had nothing but black hatred for Asha Greyjoy. There's a depravity to the actions she takes here simply because she can. I hold her more accountable because she's the one sane person on Pyke, and this is her freaking intro. I just can't. I'd need to never be sober again and I don't even drink.

[nodorothyparker]

I have a small perverse liking for Asha because she's about the only Greyjoy where I'm not actively rooting for the Drowned God to take them.  But yeah, it's a really tough intro.  If I twist it around and squint hard enough, I can sort of make the argument that this is her way of taking Theon's measure because how a person treats their inferiors or someone vulnerable like a random shipwright's woman does tell you a lot about the kind of person they are.  And she's fairly confident that she can handle herself if things get too out of control with him, but yeah, still really squicky in a story full of inappropriate brother-sister relationships.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion VI

 

Tyrion goes to visit Cersei in her bedchamber and finds her with Lancel and a couple of musicians. Lancel has been singing to Cersei and Tyrion compliments his cousin on his voice. Lancel is all sulky and asks Tyrion if Cersei has requested his presence, so Tyrion has to admit that she hasn't.

 

Cersei briefly wonders if Tyrion is there because of some begging brothers that she's recently had thrown into the dungeons and tells her brother that she's given him plenty of time to have Bywater handle these guys to keep them from spreading their so-called lies about the Lannister incest. Tyrion is annoyed that he wasn't consulted before the brothers were arrested but ultimately doesn't think the men are important enough to argue over.

 

Tyrion says that he has important matters to discuss with Cersei and asks to speak to her privately. Cersei assures Lancel that Tyrion is harmless when he's alone and says that he hasn't brought any of his pets from the Vale because they'd be able to smell them if he had.

 

Once Lancel and the musicians leave, Cersei thinks that Tyrion seems more pleased with himself than usual and wonders why. Tyrion comments off handedly on the fact that Cersei has kept the bed Robert died in and she replies that it gives her sweet dreams. She tells Tyrion to say whatever it is that he has to say so that he can GTFO.

 

Tyrion tells her that Stannis has sailed from Dragonstone and Cersei is instantly on her feet in a panic. She asks Tyrion why he's smiling and starts shaking him once he begins laughing. She wonders if he's drunk until Tyrion finally manages to spit out the news: Stannis has laid siege to Storm's End and Renly is riding out to meet him.

 

Cersei stares at Tyrion as though she can't believe what she's hearing. Once she realizes that he's serious, she begins to laugh and says that she's starting to believe Robert was the smart one of the three brothers.

 

Tyrion and Cersei share a laugh together and Cersei is so happy that she actually picks Tyrion up, whirls him around in her arms, and hugs him. She asks him if she thinks it will really come down to a battle between the two Baratheon brothers and wonders if they won't manage to come to some agreement. Tyrion doesn't think there's any way that Stannis and Renly are going to be able to work it out. He says they're too different and at the same time are too much alike. He doesn't think that either brother will be able to stomach the other for long.

 

"And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm's End," Cersei said thoughtfully. "The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by rights . . . if you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter."

 

Tyrion says it's obvious that Stannis took Robert's decision as a slight and Cersei confirms that it was meant as one. Tyrion suggests that they toast to "brotherly love" and Cersei is breathless with excitement to make that happen.

 

As Tyrion is pouring out their cups of wine, he slips some poison into Cersei's and thinks back to Cersei telling Lancel about how harmless he is when he's alone. Cersei leads the toast and laughs as she drinks her poisoned wine.

 

Tyrion looks at Cersei, acknowledges her beauty to himself, and wonders if this is the Cersei that Jaime always sees. He thinks that he almost feels sorry for poisoning her.

 

The next morning while Tyrion is eating breakfast, he receives word that his sister is indisposed and won't be able to leave her chambers until further notice. Tyrion snarks to himself that it's more likely that she's unable to leave the privy. Tyrion sends word about how sorry he is and that he'll still meet up with Ser Cleos as planned in the throne room. 

 

The Iron Throne of Aegon the Conqueror was a tangle of nasty barbs and jagged metal teeth waiting for any fool who tried to sit too comfortably, and the steps made his stunted legs cramp as he climbed up to it, all too aware of what an absurd spectacle he must be. Yet there was one thing to be said for it. It was high.

 

Tyrion takes in the scene and looks around at everyone who has decided to show at court. He thinks Sansa is looking especially pretty if a bit pale. He sees Lord Gyles coughing as usual, and he notices his cousin Tyrek and thinks about how the poor kid is being mercilessly teased over having an infant as a bride.

 

Tyrion is looking down on everyone and decides that he likes doing that very much. He also likes how loud his voice sounds when he's speaking from the Iron Throne. He's annoyed that Shae can't be there to see him looking all important especially since she asked to come but he didn't see how it would be possible.

 

Ser Cleos approaches the Iron Throne and Tyrion notes that cousin Cleos is losing his hair.

Littlefinger addresses Cleos first and thanks him for bringing word from Robb Stark. Littlefinger is careful not to address Robb as the King in the North and Pycelle too refers to Robb as the "self styled" King in the North. Pycelle says that the Queen feels that the terms Robb has sent are unacceptable and Ser Cleos must let the northmen know.

 

Tyrion gives Cleos their terms and says that he expects for Robb to lay down his sword, swear fealty to them, and then return to Winterfell. He says that Jaime is to be freed and that he's to be given command of Robb's host so that they can march on Renly. In addition to that, each of Robb's bannermen are to provide a son as a hostage or a daughter if there are no sons. Cleos looks sick and immediately tells Tyrion that there's no way Robb is going to consent to these terms.

 

Tyrion knows that Robb isn't going to accept these terms but doesn't say so to Cleos. He continues to talk and says that Cleos should tell Robb that another host is being raised at Casterly Rock and they're soon going to march. He tells Cleos to remind Robb that he's alone without the hope of allies. Renly and Stannis are fighting each other and the Lannisters have the support of Dorne now that Trystane and Myrcella are going to marry.

 

Regarding the matter of a hostage exchange, Tyrion says that they're willing to give over Harrion Karstark, Wylis Manderly, Lord Cerwyn, and Donnel Locke in exchange for the two Lannister cousins. Tyrion wants it to be known that two Lannisters are worth more than four Starks on any given day.

 

Tyrion says that Robb may have Ned's bones as a gesture of good faith. Cleos reminds Tyrion that Robb has asked for his sisters and for his father's greatsword as well. Tyrion agrees that Robb may have Ice back once Robb has agreed to their terms. Tyrion says that Robb's sisters aren't going anywhere until Jaime has been freed. Tyrion hopes that Bywater will find Arya alive before word leaks out that she's missing.

 

Cleos agrees to bring the terms to Robb and Tyrion announces that Cleos will need a proper escort. He commands Vylarr to take all of his men to the shock of Vylarr and Pycelle. Pycelle argues that Vylarr and his men are there to protect Cersei and her children, but Tyrion claims that the Kingsguard and the City Watch should be enough protection.

 

Varys and Littlefinger both know what's going on but say nothing. Pycelle is confused and seems like he doesn't know what to do. A herald asks the room if anyone has any business for the Hand of the King.

 

Ser Alliser Thorne steps forward demanding to be heard and Tyrion pretends like he had no idea that Thorne was even in the city. Thorne calls Tyrion on his bullshit and says that Tyrion knows perfectly well that he's been there and that he's been shunned, ignored, and treated like some bastard servant as opposed to a knight of the Night's Watch.

 

Tyrion continues to play dumb and behave as though he and Thorne are old friends. Varys does a half assed job of trying to soothe Thorne's wounded ego and talks about what a troubled period they're in, and Thorne replies that times are more troubled than Varys seems to realize.

 

Pycelle asks Thorne how they might be of help to him and Thorne says that the Lord Commander specifically asked him to speak with Joffrey. Tyrion explains that the king is off playing with his crossbow so Thorne can either talk to them or remain silent.

Thorne is reluctant but he tells them about the wight attack. When he finishes speaking somebody in the audience laughs and Tyrion briefly wonders if this is some sort of prank. He worries about being laughed at but at the same time, acknowledges to himself that he got some creepy bad vibes when he was over on the Wall looking out into the darkness with Jon Snow.

 

Tyrion tells himself not to be a fool and asks Thorne if Mormont survived this mysterious attack. Tyrion mocks Thorne and asks if the dead men are really dead this time, so Thorne snaps that the guys were dead the first time around and that's why he's come all the way from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea because the situation is serious. He talks about the wight hand that he brought but then has to admit that there are only bones left now because too much time has passed.

 

Tyrion tells Littlefinger to have Thorne supplied with one hundred spades so that they can do a better job of burying their dead and says that Thorne can have his pick of the city dungeons for men to take back to the Wall. Bywater informs Tyrion that the cells are nearly empty since Yoren took all of the likely men. Tyrion says the solution is to arrest more men or spread the word that there's food on the Wall for anyone who's interested in joining up.

 

Thorne waits for Tyrion at the bottom of the Iron Throne and tells him that the situation at the Wall is no joke. He swears that the dead walk. Tyrion says that they should do a more thorough job at killing and pushes past Thorne. Thorne makes a move to grab Tyrion's sleeve but is stopped by Ser Preston Greenfield who warns Thorne not to come any closer. Thorne knows better than to challenge a knight of the Kingsguard and shouts after Tyrion that he's being a fool.

 

Tyrion turns around when Thorne calls him a fool and asks him why the people are laughing at Thorne and not him. He tells Thorne that he's providing him with men which is presumably why he came there. He tells Thorne to take the men and be thankful for it before he's forced to have another crab fork duel with him. He also asks Thorne to give his warm regards to Mormont and Jon Snow.

 

Bronn forces Thorne out of the hall and Tyrion is left alone with Varys and Littlefinger. Pycelle has already left the room. Varys congratulates Tyrion stripping Cersei of her protectors and for trying to find a way to appease Robb Stark by giving him back his father's bones.

 

Littlefinger asks Tyrion if he really means to send away all of Cersei's guards and says that there's no way that she's going to allow that.

 

Tyrion senses that Littlefinger is unhappy with him and Littlefinger says that he doesn't enjoy playing the fool. He says it's obvious that Myrcella isn't going to be able to marry Robert Arryn if she's going to marry Trystane instead. Tyrion says he regrets the ruse but didn't know if Dorne would accept his offer or not. Littlefinger says that he doesn't like being lied to and asks to be left out of Tyrion's next deception.

 

Tyrion can't help but look at the dagger on Littlefinger's hip. He apologizes to Baelish and tells him how much they all love and need him. Littlefinger snaps that Tyrion should try to remember that and soon leaves the room.

 

Tyrion asks Varys to walk with him Varys says that Littlefinger is right in thinking that Cersei will never allow him to send away her guards. Tyrion insists that she will and says that Varys is going to help make it happen by telling her that this is all part of the plan to free Jaime.

 

Varys is tasked with making sure that the four men Bronn found for the job to help Jaime escape are cloaked and helmed to fit in with the four hundred guys that are going to be apart of the guard for Cleos. Tyrion hopes that four men will be able to be discreet and Varys agrees that Cersei will consent to the plan for the love that she has for her twin.

 

Cleos Frey leaves that afternoon.

 

Tyrion finds Timett and asks him to come to his solar at midnight. Later, he has dinner with the Stone Crows and Moon Brothers but decides not to drink for a change. He asks Shagga not to get too drunk and to make sure that his axe is sharp.

 

At midnight, Tyrion takes Timett and Shagga and breaks into Pycelle's bedchamber. The serving girl who is in Pycelle's bed is all scared and begs not to be hurt. Shagga wants to take the girl but Tyrion has Timett escort her out and tells him to treat her gently. Timett responds by dragging her and shoving her out of the hall.

 

Tyrion snatches the blankets away from Pycelle and asks him if the Citadel approves of him going to bed with serving girls. Pycelle demands to know why he's being treated this way, claims to be a loyal servant, and protests that he's an old man. Tyrion calls Pycelle out about how only one of the letters reached Doran Martell and that Cersei ended up with the other one.

 

Pycelle tries to claim that it must have been Varys but Tyrion knows Pycelle is lying and explains that he's the only one who had the information about the offer of having Myrcella wed Trystane. Pycelle still insists that it must have been Varys and says he knows things about the eunuch that would make Tyrion's blood run cold. He says for every secret Varys tells Tyrion there are seven secrets he holds back.

 

Pycelle is about to start in on Lord Baelish but Tyrion cuts him off and says he knows all about how untrustworthy Littlefinger is. Tyrion orders Shagga to castrate Pycelle and Pycelle can't help but piss himself in fear. Shagga grabs Pycelle by the beard and ends up cutting off most of it.

 

Tyrion wonders aloud if Pycelle will be more truthful now that he no longer has the beard to hide behind. Shagga thinks that Pycelle is close to telling the truth and says he can smell the fear coming off of him. Shagga cuts through more of Pycelle's beard while Tyrion asks him how long he's been spying for Cersei.

 

Pycelle is breathing hard and fast and starts babbling about how he's always supported House Lannister. He tells Tyrion to ask Tywin if he doesn't believe that he's always been a true servant. He talks about how he was the one to persuade Aerys to open the gates to the city during Robert's Rebellion.

 

This information takes Tyrion by surprise and Pycelle insists that he did it for the realm. He said that Aerys was mad, Viserys and Aegon were too young, and Rhaegar was dead by that point. If it had been up to Pycelle Tywin would have been made king but Robert was too strong and Ned Stark moved too quickly.

 

Tyrion goes down the list of people he feels Pycelle has betrayed and wonders where the list begins. He thinks to himself that he certainly knows where the list ends.

 

Pycelle tries to defend himself about Robert and Tyrion says that he knows the boar did the bulk of the work but guesses that Pycelle would have done what he could if it had come down to it. Pycelle talks about what a terrible king Robert turned out to be and adds that he was already plotting to set Cersei aside. He mentions that Renly was already planning on bringing Margaery to court to tempt Robert.

 

Tyrion questions Pycelle about Jon Arryn and when Pycelle is about to confirm that Lord Arryn knew about the incest, Tyrion cuts him off so that Shagga and Timett don't get confirmation about that little bombshell. Pycelle says that Lord Arryn was planning on having his son fostered at Dragonstone while Lysa was going to be sent back to the Eyrie.

 

Tyrion asks Pycelle if he poisoned Jon Arryn and Pycelle insists that he didn't. Tyrion tells Pycelle that he saw Tears of Lys amongst his potions and says that he knows Arryn's own maester was sent away. Pycelle continues to insist that he's innocent so Tyrion has Shagga threaten him with a closer shave.

 

Pycelle swears again that he tried to save Lord Arryn but soon confesses that he sent Maester Colemon away because he could tell that the Cersei wanted him to. He swears that he never gave Arryn the poison but admits to sending Colemon away when it looked like Colemon might be able to save his life. Pycelle is crying at this point and says that Varys would be able to confirm that the poisoner was more than likely Lord Arryn's squire Ser Hugh. Pycelle tells Tyrion to ask Cersei about it.

 

Tyrion is disgusted with Pycelle and orders Shagga and Timett to tie him up and throw him into one of the black cells. Pycelle is still crying about how everything he's done has been in service of House Lannister.

 

Tyrion goes through Pycelle's rooms and helps himself to a few jars. He realizes that he'll need to find someone to attend to all of the ravens until the Citadel sends over someone to replace Pycelle.

 

Tyrion thinks about how Pycelle was the one of the three that he was actually hoping that he would be able to trust.

 

Varys and Littlefinger were no more loyal, he suspected . . . only more subtle, and thus more dangerous. Perhaps his father's way would have been best: summon Ilyn Payne, mount three heads above the gates, and have done. And wouldn't that be a pretty sight, he thought.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

Theon is so cluelessly arrogant here but you can still feel at least a little bad for him.  It's not his fault he was taken away as a child and none of these people seemingly know or care who he is now.

Yeah, there's that the line about how he spent years waiting to go home and now wonders if he ever truly remembered his home, which is about the most self-aware he gets in these chapters.

 

It seems odd that he's managed to create such a sense of entitlement given that it seems hard to imagine Ned taught him that (I imagine Robb would be slapped down for taking such an attitude, let alone Theon) and it seems the Ironborn are all about proving yourself by being the biggest swinging dick around, so... yeah, Theon, you're a jumped up pipsqueak and get over yourself.

It really doesn't seem like Ned did much in the way of trying to make sure Theon grew into an honorable man. I get the feeling he just taught Theon by example and didn't put in the personal time he did with Robb, Jon, and Bran, explaining why he did things the way he did and matters of honor and duty. If so, then Ned was keeping distance between them and treating Theon as someone with an uncertain future.

[nodorothyparker]

Considering that despite any hearts and flowers notions we get about Ned being like a father to him or him being an honorary Stark that Ned was essentially holding Theon hostage, Ned probably would have kept him at a certain arm's length just for his own sanity.  The whole medieval concept of hostages in situations like this meant that Ned could have been called on to maim or kill Theon at any time to punish Balon for say, staging another rebellion or invading.  That's not to say I think Ned would have been unnecessarily cruel to Theon, just that his interest in raising him could probably only go so far.

[Avaleigh]

I enjoyed this chapter and realized that I don't recall how certain things happened on the show. Did Tyrion poison Cersei on the show? If he did, I can't recall the scene. I guess that would be another example of whitewashing. I also can't remember if he ever sits on the throne on the show. I remember him sitting on it in the promos but a lot of characters were shown on it. 

 

Tyrion really does enjoy power. I think this chapter made that plain enough especially during the scene where he's on the IT. He's also more annoyed that he wasn't consulted before the goodbrothers were arrested than with the fact that they were thrown in jail for ranting about the truth. 

 

Tyrion's treatment of Thorne is disappointing and I don't even like Thorne. Tyrion is letting personal feelings get in the way of the safety of the realm. I noticed too that Pycelle was the one to ask Thorne how they might be able to help him. Tyrion's refusal to pause for a moment and think that a man like Thorne is incredibly unlikely to waste his time telling them some made up story. Tyrion respects Mormont and that should have been enough for him to at least see Thorne in private. It wouldn't be as frustrating if Tyrion didn't acknowledge to himself that he felt something dreadful that he couldn't explain. It's not that he necessarily has to believe Thorne's story but I think he should have at least made some more inquiries and maybe ask for some prisoners from other castles to answer the call to the NW since he knows they need men anyway. King's Landing certainly can't say that they weren't warned.

 

Lancel needs to be smacked.

 

Littlefinger lost his cool, I liked seeing that. He wasn't in the mood to make jokes with Tyrion at all and it was easy to see that he was super ticked. He totally seemed like somebody who was counting on getting a promotion only to find out that the other guy got the job. 

 

Interesting that Tyrion didn't know about Pycelle's role in the sack of King's Landing. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

I could be wrong, but I'm fairly certain they left the poisoning out of the show.  But they also left out Tyrion sending undercover men disguised as guards to try to break Jaime out.

 

Tyrion is smarter than Cersei and certainly better at playing the game, but this is another chapter that proves he's just as likely as any other member of his family to overestimate himself while underestimating the opposition and shrugging off anything he doesn't want to be bothered with.  He's sowing all kinds of seeds of resentment here that will come to flower later with his framing and trial but he doesn't see it because he thinks he's gotten the better of everyone.

 

I'm interested in the information we get from Pycelle.  At one point he confirms Renly's earlier claim that Robert was very close to setting Cersei aside, hopefully for Margaery.  You have to wonder how deep that plotting went or how that could have possibly played out, knowing that the crown is deeply in hock to the Lannisters and that Tywin Lannister wouldn't have taken it well.  Pycelle also drops the little nugget that he was instrumental in getting the Lannister army into the city to sack it, a fact Jaime will later confirm, and would have seen Tywin crowned if not for Ned and Robert.  Tyrion knows about none of this, which then raises the question of what exactly do the Lannisters talk about?  They're certainly aware of all the particulars about what Tywin did to the Reynes and Tarbecks and know all the words to the lovely song about it.  Do they never once discuss the seminal events that put their house's only daughter on the throne or branded the older son for life a traitor and oathbreaker?  It makes me wonder if Tyrion, who would have still been a child during Robert's Rebellion, knows anything more than what's in the popular history.

Edited February 3, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[benteen]

I'm amazed Tyrion sitting on the Iron Throne never made it onto the show, especially with how much D&D love Tyrion.  A real missed opportunity there.  The business that Tyrion takes care off her is instead covered in a Small Council meeting.  So we don't get him poisoning Cersei, which is also a missed opportunity.

 

Tyrion messed up with the Night's Watch on this one.