The Grass is Always Greener on the Knoll

[kili]

Lee wasn't unmarketable, he was unmarketed.  America voted him their idol.  If the record label can't or won't do something with that, that's on them.

It wasn't just the album that sold poorly - the tour that year completely tanked. They were practically giving tickets away and the venues were still empty. That was a terrible, terrible year bookended by successful tours for Season 8 and 10. And Lee's coronation single sold terribly. Some will say it was because it was a cover, but regular covers before and after Season 9 sold better than Lee's coronation song. 

 

The label had good reason not to promote Lee. All the indicators were bad and they did not want to throw good money after bad.  At least they gave him a single with a video (that's more than Taylor Hicks got and he managed to sell tonnes of that crappy coronation single of his and the tour sold out arenas).

 

Season 9 sucked (and I think Cowell made sure of that - but then, XFUS sucked too so maybe he just lost his touch). 

 

Judges frequently don't mention persistent problems until it is time to run a contestant over with a bus. Thomas and his yipping is a prime example. Another popular tactic: if the judges/producers like you and you sing the same sort of song every week in the same style, you will be praised for having a consistent style and knowing who you are as an artist. If they want you gone, you will be criticized for not mixing it up. 

Edited February 29, 2016 by kili

[TheGreenKnight]

Clearly a lot of people felt the same way since he won.

Clearly a lot of people didn't considering his sales, or lack thereof. *shrug* We'll just have to agree to disagree. American Idol for me has always been synonymous with above-average singing ability (average being Katy Perry, Ke$ha, etc. in the pop world), and the general lack of winners who had it in the second half of the show's lifespan was to its detriment. I think the repetitive wins have more to do with the young viewers checking out not long after Simon's departure; they only represent the part of America still watching and voting...

Edited February 29, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[BogoGog24]

Clearly a lot of people didn't considering his sales, or lack thereof. *shrug* We'll just have to agree to disagree. American Idol for me has always been synonymous with above-average singing ability (average being Katy Perry, Ke$ha, etc. in the pop world), and the general lack of winners who had it in the second half of the show's lifespan was to its detriment. I think the repetitive wins have more to do with the young viewers checking out not long after Simon's departure; they only represent the part of America still watching and voting...

Post-show sales are not synonymous with choosing a winner. Most viewers tune out once the show is over and few people actually continue to follow their favorites after the show because it takes investment. Lee's album was not marketed very well at all and was considered too pop by a lot of fans who did like him on the show, which is probably why it didn't sell. I'm just saying within the context of the actual show that out of the choices people had for a winner, there must have just been something about Lee that people liked enough to vote for him over the others since he ended up winning.

[perfectstorm]

Clearly a lot of people didn't considering his sales, or lack thereof. *shrug* We'll just have to agree to disagree. American Idol for me has always been synonymous with above-average singing ability (average being Katy Perry, Ke$ha, etc. in the pop world), and the general lack of winners who had it in the second half of the show's lifespan was to its detriment. I think the repetitive wins have more to do with the young viewers checking out not long after Simon's departure; they only represent the part of America still watching and voting...

Yet the ratings went up in Season 10 - after Simon left.  Seasons 10 & 11 also produced 2 of the most successful winners in Scotty McCreery and Phillip Phillips.  And both seasons had successful tours.  And it was Season 11 that gave Idol the biggest selling song ever - Home.

[Qoass]

I'm still convinced the the Olympics made Home a hit.  That said, I watch AI avidly and enjoy almost every second of it but I move on to other entertainments the second the last piece of confetti hits the floor of the auditorium.

[Guest]

I think Home was just going to be a hit.  I remember the forum went gaga over it the first time he sang it.  

 

Maybe a lot of people are like me and swore off Idol purchases after disappointment with David's and Adam's albums.  But the country fans are a separate bunch and PP/Home were an anomaly.  Maybe without a coronation song with real hit power or a country winner, Idol was doomed to not sell many records anymore.  I think they kind of suck at it, to be honest, but I didn't buy/watch anything pre-season 7.  

[perfectstorm]

My point was:  debunk the myth that somehow Idol tanked - after Simon left - or that the talent wasn't as good. 

 

Attrition and Competition.  At the time, Idol had already been on the air 9 seasons, which exceeds the lifespan of most shows.  Starting in Season 10, it faced competition with The Voice and other TV singing shows. 

 

McCreery and Phillips are still considered way more successful than Simon Cowell era winners Hicks, Allen, Dewyze.

 

If Kelly or Carrie had to launch their careers in the later seasons, I doubt their careers would have taken off the way they did.

[Guest]

I just read that Carrie's recording contract she won was valued at over $1 million.  They did buy her some blockbuster singles, with Jesus Take the Wheel and When He Cheats.  I wonder what they spent on later winners.

[TheGreenKnight]

My point was:  debunk the myth that somehow Idol tanked - after Simon left - or that the talent wasn't as good. 

Yeah... I never said that. What I said is that the younger viewers began to check out not long after he left. But I will say the show only stayed big for two-three more seasons after he left, so... Saying his leaving the show had no effect is ludicrous to me.

 

 

 

If Kelly or Carrie had to launch their careers in the later seasons, I doubt their careers would have taken off the way they did.

I don't believe either of them could have won if they'd come in the later seasons, except maybe on the Mariah-Nicki season.

Edited February 29, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[OakGoblinFly]

There won't be a judges save this year. Not sure if the Twitter save is still intact or not.

 

 

Until one of their favorites is sent packing and then it's back in.

[kili]

Saying [simon's] leaving the show had no effect is ludicrous to me.

 

Simon had already started losing fans all on his own and ratings started sagging long before he left the show (the apex of ratings was the auditions for Season 6 and they started downhill after that with the only uptick/steadying in Season 10). I think that viewers eventually grow tired of the judges and shows should regularly switch them up to keep things fresh (while not making stupid decisions about hiring terrible judges who fight with each other - Season 12, I'm looking at you).

 

Simon's new show was launched with tremendous fanfare and a $5M prize and the show tanked. AI was always about more than that one judge. Simon certainly contributed to the success, but a lot of things did. And viewers were as done with Simon as he was done with the show. His schtick had grown old.

[TheGreenKnight]

Simon had already started losing fans all on his own

I think people who disliked him at the beginning always disliked him, but there was no moment when he suddenly started "losing fans."

 

Simon's new show was launched with tremendous fanfare and a $5M prize and the show tanked.

TXF tanked for a lot of reasons, but one of the biggest is that The Voice beat it to the punch the summer prior. Any anti-Idol viewers went for The Voice, and by the time TXF came in the fall, they didn't need anymore singing shows.

[Guest]

X-Factor was just bad.  And I was a Simon fan.  It had bad hosts and mostly bad co-judges and just felt amateurish compared to Idol and The Voice.  It reminded me a bit of America's Got Talent, which was a "one and done" for me.  

[Qoass]

When I read all the comments about how this one is too "shouty" and that one does too many runs and the others should change their hair/clothing/makeup, I can't help but wonder if some of these irritants are purposeful so that the performers can create a redemption arc later on.  It's a dangerous path to tread but it could pay off big if done carefully.

[kili]

When I read all the comments about how this one is too "shouty" and that one does too many runs and the others should change their hair/clothing/makeup, I can't help but wonder if some of these irritants are purposeful so that the performers can create a redemption arc later on.

 

I think I read somewhere that David Cook purposely had strange hair at the beginning so that his make-over would look more impressive.

 

Kat McPhee said that she and her Mom pretended that her Mom was a stage Mom to give her a backstory.

[BogoGog24]

I remember Heejun from Phillip's season said he acted more nervous and silly in his audition so that when he sang it would seem more surprising. I imagine there's a lot of contestants over the years who have done stuff like that because they know TPTB eat it up and they know what it takes to get on their side.

[ari333]

Well, it's official for me. This knoll thread is far more interesting than the show. That is all.

[rlangmit]

Judges' save tonight when there wasn't supposed to be one?  <rolls eyes>

[PhD-Purgatory15]

I immediately got worried for Olivia or Trent when they broke that news.

My other immediate thought was that this laid the foundation to salvage Tristan at the expense of Lee and Gianna (my assumed bottom 3). However Lee already being safe throws a monkeywrench into that little mental exercise I was having...

Edited March 4, 2016 by PhD-Purgatory15

[PhD-Purgatory15]

Seriously, America? Avalon is so screwed. There's no way they won't save the 16ness or the 15ness.

Also, that was a well executed inspirational song choice straight out of the Voice's playbook. Borchetta and Tristan get a slow knowing head nod for that...

[jsm1125]

This is stretching back a few weeks, but I wonder why Shelbie Z was the only person who got a decent amount of airtime during the audition/Hollywood stages who didn't make it to the top 14? She didn't blow it during the top 24, unlike Emily, so I'm wondering what happened behind the scenes. I wasn't a huge fan of hers but am left a bit puzzled about this. Even Stephany, who I thought was unfairly booted, didn't really get that much airtime in Hollywood.

[ari333]

This is stretching back a few weeks, but I wonder why Shelbie Z was the only person who got a decent amount of airtime during the audition/Hollywood stages who didn't make it to the top 14? She didn't blow it during the top 24, unlike Emily, so I'm wondering what happened behind the scenes. I wasn't a huge fan of hers but am left a bit puzzled about this. Even Stephany, who I thought was unfairly booted, didn't really get that much airtime in Hollywood.

 

I did wonder the same thing. l  was not a fan of her personality or her squats or her style, but she had a strong voice; I'll give her that.. FISHY

[PhD-Purgatory15]

An example of lane clearing? Getting Tristan to be the last country hope standing early. Yes, Jeneve was picked for the Top 14 by the judges...but she was always going to be a total non-starter when the fan voting began.

I'm still reasonably surprised they booted Emily B. even after her train wreck because I saw her as easily one of the most viable post-show...but that decision would fit in this hypothetical too.

Edited March 5, 2016 by PhD-Purgatory15

[BogoGog24]

Who knows. Maybe potential viewer recognition because of her stint on The Voice?

[ari333]

I may be alone, but I never got into the Voice. the things tha happened on the last farewell season of AI make me kind of mad .... and sad....It still seems fishy to me.

[BogoGog24]

I may be alone, but I never got into the Voice. the things tha happened on the last farewell season of AI make me kind of mad .... and sad....It still seems fishy to me.

I never cared for The Voice either and I think a lot of Idol fans are like that (and Voice fans vice versa don't generally like Idol). I do really like Danielle Bradbery and have enjoyed a few random performances here and there, I pay attention a little bit to it when it's on (kind of liked Emily Ann Roberts and Jordan Smith last season) but in general I don't care for it. I've tried to get into it a few times and can just never stay with it. It has a different vibe than Idol that I don't like. The contestants are usually better singers but the whole format feels very impersonal and rushed. Idol has always had a genuine heart about it that I've always loved and connected with.

[jsm1125]

Who knows. Maybe potential viewer recognition because of her stint on The Voice?

Couldn't the same be said though for MacKenzie Bourg?

[MarkHB]

Idol has always had a genuine heart about it that I've always loved and connected with.

Except for this season, which feels more rushed (to me) than ever.

One bit of possible manipulation that I don't see mentioned much: the digital backgrounds. A lot of times I've noticed that a certain singer will get a really wild, crazy, flashing background that's actually distracting when they do a close-up on the performer; frequently, that person winds up going home.

[BogoGog24]

Couldn't the same be said though for MacKenzie Bourg?

Yes but I think the reason they showed Shelbie so much despite her not making top 14, besides just The Voice fame, is that she was probably one of the more interesting and polished contestants this year too, especially in contrast to all the teens. They spent a lot of screen time on people who didn't make it far, especially showing us auditions and back stories of those who didn't get far, so I think it just comes down to what makes interesting TV.

[Stratego]

How is the order of performance chosen.  It has been shown many times that when there are many contestants that the early performers (1st/2nd) are at a disadvantage to later performers--and the last one is coined "the pimp spot".

[BogoGog24]

How is the order of performance chosen.  It has been shown many times that when there are many contestants that the early performers (1st/2nd) are at a disadvantage to later performers--and the last one is coined "the pimp spot".

I think the producers watch the rehearsals all week and determine order based on a couple things. They usually like to start and end with the strongest or most entertaining songs or performers, like Dalton kicking off this week with Radioactive or Trent last week closing with the Sam Smith song. It might also depend on who they like and who they want gone, those they want to go forward get the pimp spot (like Tristan this week before the save me performances) and those they probably want gone get the death slot if they're otherwise not entertaining.

[ari333]

Except for this season, which feels more rushed (to me) than ever.

One bit of possible manipulation that I don't see mentioned much: the digital backgrounds. A lot of times I've noticed that a certain singer will get a really wild, crazy, flashing background that's actually distracting when they do a close-up on the performer; frequently, that person winds up going home.

YES! I was wondering if I was the only one thinking it was ...weird....

[Lonesome Rhodes]

I knew 19E would not give Ameriker actual control.  

 

We saw Tristan was allowed to change her song choice.  Is anyone aware of a Top 20 contestant this year not being allowed the same privilege?   I'd sure make that bet, but I have no proof.  Or, was this deal with Tristan just an elaborate and more "gentle" version of that very thing?  

[queenanne]

I think I read somewhere that David Cook purposely had strange hair at the beginning so that his make-over would look more impressive.

 

Kat McPhee said that she and her Mom pretended that her Mom was a stage Mom to give her a backstory.

 

Well, if that's her story this week... she's also said the following things in the past:

 

[Regarding problems getting her acting career started] Yeah, my thinking was, "I'm going to go on ["American Idol"] ­because that will give me exposure. I'll be the slightly chubby pretty girl they give a makeover to. I don't careuote] if I win. I probably won't".

 

On ["American Idol"], I was very strategic with my look. I specifically wore very little makeup, did very little with my hair. I wore beat-up jeans and a simple jacket and I covered my body up because I knew that viewers like seeing transformation. As a viewer myself, it was one of those things I looked forward to. It's like when people watch "Dancing with the Stars": They love to see the stars lose weight and start to feel confident. So I wanted to create that story--actually to push the story that I had no idea about fashion--which was not actually true.

 

That said, clearly she and DC are on the same page, lol.

[BogoGog24]

I knew 19E would not give Ameriker actual control.

We saw Tristan was allowed to change her song choice. Is anyone aware of a Top 20 contestant this year not being allowed the same privilege? I'd sure make that bet, but I have no proof. Or, was this deal with Tristan just an elaborate and more "gentle" version of that very thing?

I'm not sure I would say Tristan was "allowed" to change it, more so that she was told to. Olivia said post-elimination that she planned to sing Killing Me Softly this week and the producers told her to do something upbeat. Ironically she got panned by Harry for not being vulnerable enough. It's also suspected that Dalton was pushed into singing Radioactive and it's a possibility his original song was going to be Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. Wouldn't be surprised if producers have him the same advice as Olivia.

[Guest]

Tristan was openly crying after Scott told her he didn't like Clarity for her, her first song choice.  I figured she wasn't allowed to keep it, given the reaction.  

 

I think Olivia would've been better on Killing Me Softly than the song that got her booted.  It would've felt less Hannah Montana.  I think singing Pink is a good idea if you can compete with Pink, which she can, but that Trouble song just isn't good.  And the Pink song with the pink hair and shiny fuchsia jacket... too much.  I'm sure the show told her she had to be the rocker chick, since the other slots were taken.  Which is also why I think Tristan was made to stick to country and not sing Zed.  

 

I don't think the show cares who wins but they don't want to lose viewers in the final weeks over "they all ran together to me, no one had a clear lane/POV/identity".  I figure the winner will be on some dusty shelf at Big Machine with Nick and virtually no one will notice or care.  

 

Why did Danielle Bradbery land on Big Machine, the day after winning the Voice?  Seems odd, the Voice sells their winners to the record producer of their biggest competitor?  I guess they have totally given up on the 'making music' aspect and just focus on making a show.  

Edited March 7, 2016 by Guest

[ari333]

I guess this is knoll-y since it is contrived, but Kat McPhee said that she opens her mouth as if she's "biting an apple" in photos so she comes across in the photos as "fun." BLARG. Couldn't stand her then; Cant  stand her now.

Speaking of contrived and knoll-y. I think Kat planned for that button to pop in that yellow dress...right at lady bits level. Thankfully (for some of us) she was wearing undies.

[queenanne]

Tristan was openly crying after Scott told her he didn't like Clarity for her, her first song choice.  I figured she wasn't allowed to keep it, given the reaction.  

 

I think Olivia would've been better on Killing Me Softly than the song that got her booted.  It would've felt less Hannah Montana.  I think singing Pink is a good idea if you can compete with Pink, which she can, but that Trouble song just isn't good.  And the Pink song with the pink hair and shiny fuchsia jacket... too much.  I'm sure the show told her she had to be the rocker chick, since the other slots were taken.  Which is also why I think Tristan was made to stick to country and not sing Zed.  

 

I don't think the show cares who wins but they don't want to lose viewers in the final weeks over "they all ran together to me, no one had a clear lane/POV/identity".  I figure the winner will be on some dusty shelf at Big Machine with Nick and virtually no one will notice or care.  

 

Why did Danielle Bradbery land on Big Machine, the day after winning the Voice?  Seems odd, the Voice sells their winners to the record producer of their biggest competitor?  I guess they have totally given up on the 'making music' aspect and just focus on making a show.  

 

Can't remember precisely where but there was a pretty big article (Salon? Slate?) somewhere a few month ago, where it was said that the main priority of the Voice is in no wise anything to do with "finding a new recording artist", but is, instead, about moving the Voice celebrity judges' product.  I'd believe it.

 

Of course, I think AI beat the Voice time-wise by pimping the music of Paula, JLo, et al. as soon as they had it, but still.

[Guest]

Paula's music career (at least recording anything) was over years before Idol started, though.  

 

I think the Voice and Idol both exist first and foremost to be money-making TV shows.  

[proserpina65]

I'm not sure I would say Tristan was "allowed" to change it, more so that she was told to. Olivia said post-elimination that she planned to sing Killing Me Softly this week and the producers told her to do something upbeat. Ironically she got panned by Harry for not being vulnerable enough. It's also suspected that Dalton was pushed into singing Radioactive and it's a possibility his original song was going to be Fast Car by Tracy Chapman. Wouldn't be surprised if producers have him the same advice as Olivia.

Plus, we've seen contestants change songs on previous seasons.  Scotty's Movie Songs week during his season comes to mind; he was supposed to do Everybody's Talking but felt uncomfortable with the song and did a George Strait song from Pure Country instead.

Edited March 8, 2016 by proserpina65

[BogoGog24]

Plus, we've seen contestants change songs on previous seasons. Scotty's Movie Songs week during his season comes to mind; he was supposed to do Everybody's Talking but felt uncomfortable with the song and did a George Strait song from Pure Country instead.

La'Porsha said in a recent interview that sometimes their song could change as late as even 2 days before.

[viajero]

Why did Danielle Bradbery land on Big Machine, the day after winning the Voice?  Seems odd, the Voice sells their winners to the record producer of their biggest competitor?  I guess they have totally given up on the 'making music' aspect and just focus on making a show.  

 

The Voice winner (supposedly) gets a record deal with Republic Records. Big Machine has a joint-venture with Republic Records called Republic Records Nashville.  All Voice winners who are country singers (Cassadee Pope, Danielle, Craig Wayne Boyd) were passed on from Republic to Big Machine through this JV.

 

Since Big Machine has tended to give a lot more support to it's Voice winners than Republic (who seemingly couldn't care less), this is actually a good deal for the singers.  They strongly promoted both Cassadee and Danielle's first albums, which landed both high on the Country chats (Cassadee at No. 1), Of course going to Big Machine is no guarantee if you get into a spat with Scott Borchetta, the way Craig Wayne Boyd did.

 

Note also that Big Machine picking up Cassadee and Danielle predates Borchetta's involvement with American Idol.

[perfectstorm]

Since Big Machine has tended to give a lot more support to it's Voice winners than Republic (who seemingly couldn't care less), this is actually a good deal for the singers.  They strongly promoted both Cassadee and Danielle's first albums, which landed both high on the Country chats (Cassadee at No. 1), Of course going to Big Machine is no guarantee if you get into a spat with Scott Borchetta, the way Craig Wayne Boyd did.

 

Note also that Big Machine picking up Cassadee and Danielle predates Borchetta's involvement with American Idol.

Yet, with all the promotion, Cassadee Pope's CD only sold 181K, Danielle Bradbury 136K.  They would be consider flops if they were on Idol, especially for major label artists.

Even Lee Dewyze's CD sold more than Bradbury.  Kris Allen sold much better than Pope.

Another example of Scott Borchetta over promising, under producing.

Edited March 10, 2016 by ifoundit

[BogoGog24]

In this industry though 100k+ is probably considered good by today's standards. I mean, unless you are named Taylor or Adele, you're not going to be selling millions anymore. By comparison to the rest of the Voice alum, Cassadee and Danielle are considered to have good sales. Kris and Lee released albums before 2010. Not really a fair comparison to Cass and Danielle, who both released in 2013. Comparable sales would be like Candice and Caleb who both did poorly in sales, with Caleb only selling 11,000.

[kili]

Not really a fair comparison to Cass and Danielle, who both released in 2013. Comparable sales would be like Candice and Caleb who both did poorly in sales, with Caleb only selling 11,000.

 

How about comparing them to Phillip Phillips who won the same year as Cass (2012) and a year before Danielle. He was on Idol  before it spiraled out of control in Season 12 and became second fiddle to The Voice. His debut album sold 169K its opening week and a total 1.033 in the its first year.

[areca]

Of course going to Big Machine is no guarantee if you get into a spat with Scott Borchetta, the way Craig Wayne Boyd did.

I always thought the asshole record head from Nashville was based on Borchetta.

[BogoGog24]

How about comparing them to Phillip Phillips who won the same year as Cass (2012) and a year before Danielle. He was on Idol  before it spiraled out of control in Season 12 and became second fiddle to The Voice. His debut album sold 169K its opening week and a total 1.033 in the its first year.

 

To be fair looking at Wikipedia season 11 of Idol generally had many more viewers on average (15 million +) than seasons 3 and 4 of The Voice (averaging around 10-ish million or less). So that helps. Also Phillip had a really successful single with Home and Gone Gone Gone did really well as a follow up. Cass scored a platinum hit with Wasting All These Tears and Danielle's Heart of Dixie did ok, but neither had huge first singles to help their sales like P2 did. Also they're on completely different record labels and different management teams, which can greatly affect how heavily promoted and marketed they are. I'm not even really a Voice fan and greatly prefer Idol, I'm just trying to be fair and objective about it. I still don't think this comparison is fair at all.

[perfectstorm]

To be fair looking at Wikipedia season 11 of Idol generally had many more viewers on average (15 million +) than seasons 3 and 4 of The Voice (averaging around 10-ish million or less). So that helps. Also Phillip had a really successful single with Home and Gone Gone Gone did really well as a follow up. Cass scored a platinum hit with Wasting All These Tears and Danielle's Heart of Dixie did ok, but neither had huge first singles to help their sales like P2 did. Also they're on completely different record labels and different management teams, which can greatly affect how heavily promoted and marketed they are. I'm not even really a Voice fan and greatly prefer Idol, I'm just trying to be fair and objective about it. I still don't think this comparison is fair at all.

OK, so going by the above, how is your argument of comparing Pope and Bradbury to Candice and Caleb fair?  Neither had big singles to support their albums.   They are on different labels, different management.  And it's well known that neither were really marketed.  Also, there's really no direct correlation between viewership and post show sales.

[BogoGog24]

OK, so going by the above, how is your argument of comparing Pope and Bradbury to Candice and Caleb fair?  Neither had big singles to support their albums.   They are on different labels, different management.  And it's well known that neither were really marketed.  Also, there's really no direct correlation between viewership and post show sales.

Then in that case it is probably not fair to compare anyone to anyone. 

[TheGreenKnight]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but the judges will be choosing the person going home tonight out of the bottom 2.

 

Tristan has got to be the strangest TCO this show's ever had.