The Winds Of Winter: Book 6 Will Arrive...Someday

Winnief · June 26, 2014

Dany and Tyrion will go another 1000 pages without meeting each other...lovely.

That was my thought too-thankfully I doubt they'll do that on the show.

We already know from released chapters that

Stannis survives the Battle of Winterfell, (though if Shireen gets fed to the flames while he's away he might wish he hadn't) and plans to kill Theon.

I'd really REALLY prefer it be Theon's blood be spilt in front of a weir wood tree be what re-vitalizes Jon. At this point, it's what Theon would want too.

I think Myrcella and Trystane are one of the few true matches in the books right? She's given politically to Dorne, but she loves it there and is close and cute as kittens with Trystane.

They are indeed. Which is why Martin will never let it happen. Sob.

loki567 · June 26, 2014

That was my thought too-thankfully I doubt they'll do that on the show.

My guess is that they'll meet before Dany's Drogo ride.

Skeeter22 · June 27, 2014

I just hope that when Jon Snow is resurrected, he comes back as an interesting character. He's just a giant, fantasy cliche, and if he is the hero of the series, he needs to be more than that. When is GRRM going to subvert that trope?

Avaleigh · June 27, 2014

I thought I'd read all of TWoW sample chapters but I don't recall confirmation

that Stannis survives the battle of Winterfell. Is it because he's present in Theon's chapter? Do they talk about the battle and I'mjust not remembering? But Ramsay isn't dead either? Which side wins?

For some reason I thought that chapter was placed prior to the battle but I guess not. Gah, how do I not remember that?

ITA, blixie. I too want Varys to get a dose of hey, maybe it's not that easy---he was almost smug with Kevan when he was talking about Aegon. I can't help but think Aegon would likely be disappointing to him and agree that the cyvasse scene is probably supposed to be an important look into his character.

I'm also assuming that GRRM is shoving the cyvasse down our throats is because it's another subtle way of giving clues. I know when I was reading a chapter in TWoW that I immediately felt that there was a significance to

Tyrion picking up the white dragon and am pretty much convinced that he's meant to ride Viserion.

I can't recall if we get any details of the cyvasse games that Myrcella and Trystane play apart from being told that Myrcella is the better player between the two of them.

I don't have a huge problem with Dany and Tyrion taking ages to really interact but I am bummed about hearing that the Dothraki are coming back in a big way. I *hate* the thought of them being let loose on an already ravaged 7 Kingdoms. (Not that I actually think they'll arrive in TWoW.) What's worse is I feel like Dany is probably going to travel around with them for a few chapters and do stuff like reminisce about Drogo or perish the thought, even a pointless trip back to Vaes Dothrak instead of some cool place we haven't been to like Asshai which we're apparently never going to see.

Winnief · June 27, 2014

ITA, blixie. I too want Varys to get a dose of hey, maybe it's not that easy---he was almost smug with Kevan when he was talking about Aegon. I can't help but think Aegon would likely be disappointing to him and agree that the cyvasse scene is probably supposed to be an important look into his character.

Basically, Varys bet it all on getting the Perfect Prince. Problem is he hasn't seen said Prince since boyhood and the kid's now far out of his control.

What's worse is I feel like Dany is probably going to travel around with them for a few chapters and do stuff like reminisce about Drogo or perish the thought, even a pointless trip back to Vaes Dothrak instead of some cool place we haven't been to like Asshai which we're apparently never going to see.

I'm just annoyed that it's gonna take even longer for Dany to get to Westeros. This is one area where I really really hope they do change it for the show.

benteen · June 27, 2014

I won't be sorry to see Dany's eventual trip to Westeros get shorted on the show. I don't think it will happen in Season 5 but Season 6 most likely.

Interesting idea about Cersei marrying Euron. I think though that Cersei would only marry a man who she could dominate. He'd have to offer a lot but Cersei would want to be the one in control of that marriage. I don't know if she's smart enough to get re-married though.

Avaleigh · June 27, 2014

I'm inclined to agree that Cersei wouldn't feel any guarantee that she could ever hope to dominate a man like Euron especially as she is no longer at the height of her beauty. (Not that I think sex and beauty could contol a man like Euron anyway, I just feel like this would be Cersei's general thought process.) Plus, I figure if she was resistant to marrying a seemingly nice guy like Willas she'd be even less willing to put herself under the so called protection of a psychotic IB man.

The one that could have been interesting is Cersei/Littlefinger with Cersei thinking that she is in control only to suddenly realize that she'd been completely played as Ned had once been.

ElizaD · June 27, 2014

Dany and Tyrion are apart for much of the book? Thanks, GRRM. Because we haven't waited long enough for main character interaction and Dany in Westeros. This isn't a surprise (Dany spending time with the Dothraki seemed pretty likely at the end of ADWD) but it's still another sign that 7 books might not be enough.

Rickon-Someone -Maybe. The marriage ceremony could take place, (maybe to Shireen or one of Manderly's granddaughters or some other Northern Bannerman's daughter,) even if it couldn't be consummated for years and years to come.

Aegon/Arianne is the most likely, but I do hope Rickon marries a Manderly at some point.

benteen · June 27, 2014

Dany and Tyrion are apart for much of the book? Thanks, GRRM. Because we haven't waited long enough for main character interaction and Dany in Westeros. This isn't a surprise (Dany spending time with the Dothraki seemed pretty likely at the end of ADWD) but it's still another sign that 7 books might not be enough.

Aegon/Arianne is the most likely, but I do hope Rickon marries a Manderly at some point.

Wylla Manderly would be a great match for him when he gets older.

Advance35 · June 27, 2014

Clarification please. The Martells weren't ever going to allow the Trystane/Myrcella bethrothal to go through were they? I can't imagine the Martells would let a potential heir marry a bastard born of incest AND a Lannister at that. I thought they were hanging onto her so the Lannister/Tyrell alliance wouldn't move on them in a military fashion. We hear that they or most except Doran want Cersei, Jamie, Tommen all dead. I can't imagine Myrcella would be spared. I'm assuming after the Martells crushed House Lannister, Myrcella would have an accident somewhere or was I seeing plots where none existed?

As for future marriages, I could see Aegon/Arianne, I could also see Alayne Stone/Harry by the end of the book. If I understand it LF wants Sansa to win over Harry because that's the only way Lady Waynwood would give her consent to the match, in the book they don't know she's Sansa Stark. They don't have to wait for Tyrion's dead body, they could just have Sansa marry Harry as Alayne. I don't think Sansa is done with marriage I just think she's done with love. I think she could be convinced to marry Harry but on the inside as far as she's concerned their's Sansa and then there's the rest of the world.

I'm most anxious for news on the Queen Trials and the fall out sure to follow. I have a feeling that Varys who just gave House Lannister a killing stroke with the murder of Kevan, is going to deliver House Tyrell a devestating blow by manuevering the trial against Margaery. But I'm also curious how we are going to see Highgarden since GRRM said that we as readers would get to see it.

Winnief · June 27, 2014

Dany and Tyrion are apart for much of the book? Thanks, GRRM. Because we haven't waited long enough for main character interaction and Dany in Westeros. This isn't a surprise (Dany spending time with the Dothraki seemed pretty likely at the end of ADWD) but it's still another sign that 7 books might not be enough.

Agreed. It's increasingly likely it will be EIGHT books to finish the series-assuming the series ever is finished.

Aegon/Arianne is the most likely, but I do hope Rickon marries a Manderly at some point.
Wylla Manderly would be a great match for him when he gets older.

Hey, old Manderly should get something for his trouble and its a logical alliance-uniting House Stark with some of their wealthiest most powerful bannerman. (They do control the North's only major city after all!)

As for future marriages, I could see Aegon/Arianne, I could also see Alayne Stone/Harry by the end of the book. If I understand it LF wants Sansa to win over Harry because that's the only way Lady Waynwood would give her consent to the match, in the book they don't know she's Sansa Stark. They don't have to wait for Tyrion's dead body, they could just have Sansa marry Harry as Alayne. I don't think Sansa is done with marriage I just think she's done with love. I think she could be convinced to marry Harry but on the inside as far as she's concerned their's Sansa and then there's the rest of the world.

I see the reasoning, but I still feel Harry's a Red Herring. The very fact that LF outlined his plans there so clearly and elaborately to me, suggests said plan is NOT going to happen the way he expected. Sansa's going to unite the Vale forces to go North-but she will also be turning on Baelish and she's not going to marry a guy who sounds like Robert 2.0.

I'm most anxious for news on the Queen Trials and the fall out sure to follow. I have a feeling that Varys who just gave House Lannister a killing stroke with the murder of Kevan, is going to deliver House Tyrell a devestating blow by manuevering the trial against Margaery. But I'm also curious how we are going to see Highgarden since GRRM said that we as readers would get to see it.

Oh yeah. I've thought for a while that the best thing Varys could do to further destabilize the situation in KL (and pave the way for Aegon) would be to see to it Margaery is convicted. That move smashes whatever's left of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance and pretty much ensures fighting in the streets.

I suspect with the Iron Born threat in the Reach we'll get a glimpse of Highgarden trying to defend themselves-possibly through the eyes of Sam, since the Tarly's are Tyrell bannerman. Or maybe another POV character who's a minor Redshirt doomed to die.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Winnief

Haleth · June 27, 2014

It sounds like Dany will be adventuring with the Dothraki for a while, which is what I was expecting (she's not going to appear at the end of the Battle of Meereen and then immediately pull up stakes and sail for Westeros, which is what some people are convinced is going to happen).

In other words Martin's solution to the Meereeneeeeeese knot was to tip the cyvasse board.

blixie · June 27, 2014

I can't imagine Myrcella would be spared.

I can. Arianne is horrified when Myrcella is maimed, not just because it's damaging their Houses bargaining chip, I think Arianne/Doran at least, would never lower themselves to behaving like Lannisters, ie, killing an innocent child, in that respect I think they are sincere. The Sand Snakes might sacrifice her to make a point, but she's so clearly worth more alive than dead I don't know why they'd kill her and as long as the incest stuff does not be seem to be accepted fact they can play her as rightful heir to Westeros, and just generally I don't think Dorne of all places probably gives a shit if she's a incestuous bastard.

Tommen is different because he's the king, but I never felt like any of the players in Dorne sought to see him dead, they merely want to assert Myrcella should be Queen because she is older and is the rightful heir by Dornish law/custom.

It's increasingly likely it will be EIGHT books to finish the series-assuming the series ever is finished.

I never understood how the plan was 7 books but one got split in two and he still ended up on 7, so yeah I totally see him needing an eighth book, even it's splitting ADoS into two pieces.

mac123x · June 27, 2014

What's worse is I feel like Dany is probably going to travel around with them for a few chapters and do stuff like reminisce about Drogo or perish the thought, even a pointless trip back to Vaes Dothrak

Well, that does fit with part of Quaithe's cryptic comments. "To go forward, you must go back". I really hope this doesn't mean that Dany is going back to Vaes Dothrak to try to unite all the separate khalisars under her control because, ugh, that'd be even more "Dany struggles with the complexity of ruling fractious subjects" chapters. Do. Not. Want.

I've thought for a while that the best thing Varys could do to further destabilize the situation in KL (and pave the way for Aegon) would be to see to it Margaery is convicted. That move smashes whatever's left of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance and pretty much ensures fighting in the streets.

IIRC, Mace Tyrell and Randyl Tarley have their respective troops near Kings Landing now. I could totally see them launching an armed rescue of Margy, and having to fight the Faith Militant. Killing a bunch of sparrows in the Great Sept, possibly even the High Sparrow, would be a great way to drive the Faith over to Aegon's side.

Avaleigh · June 27, 2014

Re seeing Highgarden in the series--I would be beyond excited to get an Olenna or Willas prologue or epilogue. Nothing against either character I just think I'd want a Tyrell POV to lead me through whatever ends up happening that would take our attention there as they'd have the most to lose.

Advance35 · June 27, 2014

The Sand Snakes might sacrifice her to make a point, but she's so clearly worth more alive than dead I don't know why they'd kill her and as long as the incest stuff does not be seem to be accepted fact they can play her as rightful heir to Westeros, and just generally I don't think Dorne of all places probably gives a shit if she's a incestuous bastard.

Tommen is different because he's the king, but I never felt like any of the players in Dorne sought to see him dead, they merely want to assert Myrcella should be Queen because she is older and is the rightful heir by Dornish law/custom.

Well I think the Sand Snakes definitely want Tommen dead. It's either Obara or Lady Nym that say's Tommen's life is the only thing that will compensate them for the loss of Oberyn. And Lady Nym and Tyene refuse to drink when Ser Swan makes the toast to "King Tommen's" health. Obara actually pours her wine on the floor and leaves during the toast.

I also remember during their meeting in ADWD they harp in disgust about how Cersei's children are nothing but bastards born of incest. And nobody seems overly bothered about Myrcella's disfigurement, there's just contention on whether to kill Balon Swann and his men or send them on the wild goose chase ala the Martell's frame up of Darkstarr.

I see the reasoning, but I still feel Harry's a Red Herring. The very fact that LF outlined his plans there so clearly and elaborately to me, suggests said plan is NOT going to happen the way he expected. Sansa's going to unite the Vale forces to go North-but she will also be turning on Baelish and she's not going to marry a guy who sounds like Robert 2.0

I think I see Jon Snow coming South and making an appeal for forces more than I see Sansa leading anyone north. And I just feel like the LF/Sansa alliance and whatever else it becomes (I do feel things will turn amorous between them) is going to last for some time. Nothing in this series ever goes how one expects. But than again I'm someone that could see Littlefinger living through all this. And I wouldn't be surprised if Sansa doesn't learn about LF turning on Ned Stark.

Oh yeah. I've thought for a while that the best thing Varys could do to further destabilize the situation in KL (and pave the way for Aegon) would be to see to it Margaery is convicted. That move smashes whatever's left of the Tyrell/Lannister alliance and pretty much ensures fighting in the streets.

Which is something I want the show to demonstrate more. You can't pinpoint an individual in a particular House, let alone a Major one. To exact revenge on one member you really do have to take out the whole house. It's why Jon Snow rejoices at the idea of Tommen making an enemy of the Iron Bank and why he wants "death and destruction to rain down on all of House Lannister", this includes Tyrion. Lady Stoneheart with the Freys. The Tyrells and the Martells. Even Sansa says if she has children she is going to raise them to hate Lannisters.

SeanC · June 28, 2014

And I just feel like the LF/Sansa alliance and whatever else it becomes (I do feel things will turn amorous between them)

Sansa's mental state is pretty clear that she isn't at all receptive to his advances. She sorts his behaviour into two personas, "Petyr" (the protector/father figure) and "Littlefinger" (his sexual attraction and assorted other misdeeds). As she becomes more Stockholm'd over the course of AFFC, she comes to see him more and more as "Petyr".

Mormegil · June 28, 2014

I never understood how the plan was 7 books but one got split in two and he still ended up on 7, s

The plan was 6 books before the split.

It was originally a trilogy, then it went to 4 books, then 6 and finally (for the moment) 7.

Danny Franks · June 28, 2014

Dany and Tyrion will go another 1000 pages without meeting each other...lovely.

Still, what GRRM talked about sounds promising.

And at the end of the book, someone will ask Dany if she intends to go to Westeros and... she decides not to just yet. Then hops into bed with Daario or suitably swarthy Daario replacement. Honestly, if there isn't some sign of these plots all merging together by the midpoint of the next book, I'll probably just give up.

“We have more deaths, and we have more betrayals. We have more marriages.”

This is perhaps the most redundant comment I've ever seen. GRRM can't go more than five chapters without at least one of the above making an appearance. As for weddings, there could be plenty. Dany can move onto husband number 3, Asha might marry whichever faceless viking pirate she was boffing, Cersei might get married, Aegon and Arianne, Trystane and Mrycella.

How about this for an appropriately GRRM thing to write? The BWB capture Walder Frey and force him to 'marry' Lady Stoneheart in some fucked up mockery of a wedding ceremony, before she castrates him and forces him to watch his entire family put to the sword? Sickening violence, but for once directed against the villains. That'd be fresh.

Avaleigh · June 28, 2014

I know there are some who feel that villains in ASOIAF don't really ever get their comeuppance but I don't really feel like that's the case. When I think of the fates of characters like Tywin, Vargo Hoat, Theon, Gregor, Joffrey, Janos, Viserys, Lysa, etc I guess I've never really agreed with this idea that only the bad characters win or that the good characters always or often suffer more than the other characters. (Cersei, Robert, Jorah, and Jaime are other characters who come to mind in terms of getting serious, life changing, ruinous payback in one form or another becauseof various decisions and choices they ended up making.)

There are a few Freys who deserve the chopping block but I do disagree with the idea of exterminating House Frey. I just can't get behind the idea that they all should die via LS because of their asshole patriarch Walder. I was also disappointed in Sansa when she thought to herself that she'd raise her children to hate all Lannisters. It's understandable to a degree but still disappointing as it's the sort of thought I'd expect from Arya. Sansa herself recognized that Myrcella and Tommen were good kids but that still didn't stop her from grouping them in with the people she hates. We aren't in the heads of Tommen or Myrcella but it's hard for me to believe that they'd have such hostile feelings about Sansa or Starks in general. Being in a position of privilege doesn't necessarily keep people from feeling sympathetic to others especially when the people in question are eight and nine years old and seemingly sweet and sensitive.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Avaleigh

Danny Franks · June 29, 2014

I know there are some who feel that villains in ASOIAF don't really ever get their comeuppance but I don't really feel like that's the case. When I think of the fates of characters like Tywin, Vargo Hoat, Theon, Gregor, Joffrey, Janos, Viserys, Lysa, etc I guess I've never really agreed with this idea that only the bad characters win or that the good characters always or often suffer more than the other characters. (Cersei, Robert, Jorah, and Jaime are other characters who come to mind in terms of getting serious, life changing, ruinous payback in one form or another becauseof various decisions and choices they ended up making.)

From what I can recall right now, the key difference is that the good guys suffer horribly without ever really getting revenge, or being avenged. Those responsible for some of the worst atrocities are still largely alive and kicking. Littlefinger, Bolton, Ramsay, Frey. Even fucking Gregor is still around as some stupid Frankenstein's Monster. Meanwhile, most of the supposed good characters never really enjoy any victory. Robb and co were slaughtered, Oberyn died stupidly and for no reason other than to kick the Martells into gear, Quentyn was even more pointless, Ned lost his head because of his stupidity, loyal retainers like Rodrik Cassel, Robar Royce and the men with Robb at The Twins are casually offed.

Meanwhile, you've got GRRM giggling like a thirteen year old boy at the latest vile act he can have a Greyjoy or Ramsay commit, which goes totally unpunished. It's tiresome, and for me it's passed 'real' and 'gritty' and landed right in 'parody'. Victarion throttles women and cuts their tongues out and rapes them, but he's a super awesome badass viking pirate! Ramsay forces his wife to fuck his dogs! Euron rapes his family members! Littlefinger is grooming a girl to be both his daughter and future lover!

Edited June 29, 2014 by Danny Franks

blixie · June 29, 2014

without ever really getting revenge, or being avenged

I think Oberyn died *feeling* avenged. He knew that he'd poisoned The Mountain and in my personal canon Tywin too. He might die, but so too were his two primary targets. Arya kills The Tickler, and denies The Hound mercy, Jon gets to cut off Slynt's head, Joffrey dies horribly and publicly, Jamie loses his hand, his looks Cersei and his entire sense of self.

The good guys need more unambiguous wins though, that's my real complaint, right now Stannis' moment at the wall is the biggest pure win moment and even that is colored by Stannis' being such an obvious pathetic pretender with a lady who burns folks right and left to serve his king-dom. Sorry not a Stannis fan.

ASOIF is dangerously close to being the a book series version of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Build up, build up, build up...and then it collapsed like a flan in a cupboard. Payoff GRRM, look it the fuck up.

Hecate7 · June 29, 2014

Why are we assuming Dany and Tyrion will ever meet?

Edited June 29, 2014 by Hecate7

Meredith Quill · June 29, 2014

Clarification please. The Martells weren't ever going to allow the Trystane/Myrcella bethrothal to go through were they? I can't imagine the Martells would let a potential heir marry a bastard born of incest AND a Lannister at that. I thought they were hanging onto her so the Lannister/Tyrell alliance wouldn't move on them in a military fashion. We hear that they or most except Doran want Cersei, Jamie, Tommen all dead. I can't imagine Myrcella would be spared. I'm assuming after the Martells crushed House Lannister, Myrcella would have an accident somewhere or was I seeing plots where none existed?

Well if Maggy the Frog's prophecy is accurate, it's clear that all 3 of Cersei's children will die before her; "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds and when your tears have drowned you...". Therefore, Myrcella will die somehow.

Winnief · June 29, 2014

Meanwhile, you've got GRRM giggling like a thirteen year old boy at the latest vile act he can have a Greyjoy or Ramsay commit, which goes totally unpunished. It's tiresome, and for me it's passed 'real' and 'gritty' and landed right in 'parody'. Victarion throttles women and cuts their tongues out and rapes them, but he's a super awesome badass viking pirate! Ramsay forces his wife to fuck his dogs! Euron rapes his family members! Littlefinger is grooming a girl to be both his daughter and future lover!

ITA. At a certain point, it seems more like literary sadism more than anything else. He's going for cheap shock value at the expense of real plot developments and after the horror is just dulled and you get tired of it all.

The good guys need more unambiguous wins though, that's my real complaint, right now Stannis' moment at the wall is the biggest pure win moment and even that is colored by Stannis' being such an obvious pathetic pretender with a lady who burns folks right and left to serve his king-dom. Sorry not a Stannis fan.
ASOIF is dangerously close to being the a book series version of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Build up, build up, build up...and then it collapsed like a flan in a cupboard. Payoff GRRM, look it the fuck up.

BINGO. After so many books establishing the near extinction of the Starks and so forth, you would think he would start to show things possibly turning around for them a bit but he hasn't. It's why Sansa's scenes in "The Mountain and the Viper" this year were such a hit among Sullied and Unsullied alike-finally after having to watch this child be terrorized and abused for so long we were seeing her try to take control of her destiny-for good or for evil. We haven't gotten that moment in the books yet and it's really starting to frustrate people.

I really don't get why Martin keeps delaying Dany's arrival in Westeros like this-I know, I know the prophecy said she had to "go back to go forward," but why put that in?!? Why keep dragging it out like this when literally EVERYONE in Readerland is ready to see Dany get moving?!? She has things she's scheduled to do in Westeros at this point-take out Aegon, take out Euron, battle White Walkers, etc. etc. It's not like we're short on page count by now and need to stretch things out. Why does Martin keep stalling?!?

ElizaD · June 29, 2014

ITA. At a certain point, it seems more like literary sadism more than anything else. He's going for cheap shock value at the expense of real plot developments and after the horror is just dulled and you get tired of it all.
...
I really don't get why Martin keeps delaying Dany's arrival in Westeros like this-I know, I know the prophecy said she had to "go back to go forward," but why put that in?!? Why keep dragging it out like this when literally EVERYONE in Readerland is ready to see Dany get moving?!? She has things she's scheduled to do in Westeros at this point-take out Aegon, take out Euron, battle White Walkers, etc. etc. It's not like we're short on page count by now and need to stretch things out. Why does Martin keep stalling?!?

Another ITA. Sure, some bad guys suffer, but they suffer less than their victims did (with the one exception of Theon) and mostly as a result of being screwed over by other assholes (for example, when the High Septon makes Cersei do the walk of shame it's because he's a religious fanatic and a misogynist, it doesn't have to do with her actual crimes; her bastard is on the throne, her victims are unavenged). The villains' reputations are still largely intact, their lands are still their houses' lands, they haven't been made to answer for their crimes, and they don't get the Ned/Robb treatment of desecrated corpses, wrecked reputations, lost lands, endless lost opportunities for justice. IMO, that's why Manderly was such a hit with readers in ADWD (and why a lot of people are sad that Stoneheart has been cut). He's going to horrible extremes with cannibalism, but at last, here's someone who's had enough of this bullshit and is ready to go down in the name of making the Boltons and the Freys pay for the Red Wedding.

GRRM's problems with Dany are entirely of his own making. He's decided she has to arrive when X happens, and so she wastes her time with 110% evil puppy-killers (at least in Westeros maybe 50% of the population are good people, even if they're constantly in peril of their lives) instead of learning about the kingdom she wants to rule and proving her worth by something other than a last minute appearance with her WMDs.

blixie · June 29, 2014

Part of me understands that he planned for a time jump and then for some entirely stupid reason decided not to do it. So now he thinks we need to *see* all their trials and tribulations, so we buy their relatively fast maturation into more adult characters, even though the two leads are STILL teenagers. That is one of the other huge benefits to the show with the actors aging a year with each season, I can't imagine any unsullied think everything they've seen has only taken place over *two* years, and all the characters were aged up from the start.

I can also see where he thinks we can't have Dany in Westeros until the very end because: Dragon's, but the whole point of the story I THOUGHT was that Dany thinks she's going to win a kingdom from men, not save the world from ancient magical zombie monsters. Why not let Quentyn both succeed and fail, succeed in bringing Dany to Dorne, and then kill him off towards the end of the voyage so that she sails forth with an ally and arrives only to have them turned into enemies. I'd much rather watch a battle in Dorne than in Mereen. But I'm one of those who loved the Dorne characters, chapters and yes even Darkstar. I'd just much rather have watched her struggles IN Westeros, having to truly win over those people finding the opportunity in the crisis at the Wall/in the North.

Edited June 29, 2014 by blixie

Avaleigh · June 29, 2014

Another ITA. Sure, some bad guys suffer, but they suffer less than their victims did (with the one exception of Theon) and mostly as a result of being screwed over by other assholes (for example, when the High Septon makes Cersei do the walk of shame it's because he's a religious fanatic and a misogynist, it doesn't have to do with her actual crimes; her bastard is on the throne, her victims are unavenged). The villains' reputations are still largely intact, their lands are still their houses' lands, they haven't been made to answer for their crimes, and they don't get the Ned/Robb treatment of desecrated corpses, wrecked reputations, lost lands, endless lost opportunities for justice. IMO, that's why Manderly was such a hit with readers in ADWD (and why a lot of people are sad that Stoneheart has been cut). He's going to horrible extremes with cannibalism, but at last, here's someone who's had enough of this bullshit and is ready to go down in the name of making the Boltons and the Freys pay for the Red Wedding.

GRRM's problems with Dany are entirely of his own making. He's decided she has to arrive when X happens, and so she wastes her time with 110% evil puppy-killers (at least in Westeros maybe 50% of the population are good people, even if they're constantly in peril of their lives) instead of learning about the kingdom she wants to rule and proving her worth by something other than a last minute appearance with her WMDs.

I disagree when I think about some of those examples. Does the state of Tywin's corpse really not count as being desecrated? What about his memory among the smallfolk? Kevan and Genna were probably the only people who truly mourned his loss.

Vargo Hoat received one of the most grisly deaths imaginable. It was a lot worse than losing his hand and maybe getting a quick death by sword.

Joffrey's death was satisfying IMO and I felt like it was decent payback for Ned even if Sansa wasn't knowingly an accomplice.

I also disagree with the idea that Robb's reputation is forever trashed. He seems to be remembered well more often than not. He became a warrior legend who never lost a battle and I don't feel like his death really changed that.

I agree that Oberyn died feeling avenged and as awful as his death was I honestly think the Mountain's is worse. Who wouldn't take seconds of maximum pain as opposed to weeks/months?

Cersei wasn't punished for her real crimes true, but her reputation has been wrecked all the same. She's hated by lowborn and highborn alike and is on house arrest until her trial where she might be killed. I feel like that qualifies as a psychologically terrifying situation and am confident that she's in for plenty more misery if she ends up winning.

Euron and Victarion haven't been around long enough for me to wonder why they haven't yet received just payback for being murderous rapists. I can understand wondering why we have to put up with them in the first place but to introduce Victarion as a POV only to have him killed say by someone he'd raped in the past, for me that would have felt like Quentyn all over again--introducing a new POV for minor reasons and kill off the POV cause that'll be !gasp!shocking. I'm guessing Victarion's fiery death should be coming along in the beginning of TWoW.

Lysa's death felt proportionate to her crimes IMO and she's another one whose reputation has suffered.

Jaime's quote about how he feels that he's basically lost everything yet he's still being told that House Lannister won the war---I see where he's coming from and I don't think Tommen still being on the throne means that House Lannister hasn't taken some positively devastating hits and losses just as Houses Martell, Stark, Tully, Arryn, and Greyjoy have. The house that is missing from this list is the mostly "good" House Tyrell. Loras might well be mortally wounded but the news was delivered in such a way that I can't say I'm convinced. If anything feels somewhat lopsided it's that the Tyrells can swoop into the snakepit that is KL, participate in a regicide where they were planning on framing an innocent girl, and easily get away with it.

I agree with you, ElizaD, regarding GRRM only having himself to blame when it comes to Dany's progress.

Winnief · June 29, 2014

GRRM's problems with Dany are entirely of his own making. He's decided she has to arrive when X happens, and so she wastes her time with 110% evil puppy-killers (at least in Westeros maybe 50% of the population are good people, even if they're constantly in peril of their lives) instead of learning about the kingdom she wants to rule and proving her worth by something other than a last minute appearance with her WMDs.

I think that might be it. Martin's decided not to have Dany get to Westeros before the Seven Kingdoms are completely overrun by White Walkers...so thus the endless meandering. You'd think though, that since he's planning on having Dany face off against human opponents in Westeros first anyway she could come over and deal with that before going up against Ice Zombies.

Part of me understands that he planned for a time jump and then for some entirely stupid reason decided not to do it. So now he thinks we need to *see* all their trials and tribulations, so we buy their relatively fast maturation into more adult characters, even though the two leads are STILL teenagers. That is one of the other huge benefits to the show with the actors aging a year with each season, I can't imagine any unsullied think everything they've seen has only taken place over *two* years, and all the characters were aged up from the start.

This. Even Martin now admits he should have made the characters older from the start. I don't see why a five year gap with exposition couldn't have worked to fill in the main gaps-Arya recalling her early days training as a Faceless Man as she fulfills her latest assignment for example and seeing everyone treat "Alayne" as an established household presence and de facto Lady of the Vale/SR's surrogate mother, while Dany reflects on how hard it's been to rule Mereen these last five years, etc. etc. Perhaps the problem was that the five year gap wouldn't have allowed for so many subplots-but frankly that would have been a good thing. But yeah, the show's got a big advantage as viewers sort of presume all this is taking place over *several* years which is yet another reason they can accelerate things quite a bit.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Winnief

Haleth · June 29, 2014

After so many books establishing the near extinction of the Starks and so forth, you would think he would start to show things possibly turning around for them a bit but he hasn't.

I'm of the opinion that he has done that. Maybe it's the eternal optimist in me but I see the tide as having turned for the Stark kids, especially as the show is presenting it. They are all on their way to becoming formidible players of the Game. Each is doing it in a different way of course but they are all finding a means to enacting their revenge.

Danny Franks · June 29, 2014

I'm of the opinion that he has done that. Maybe it's the eternal optimist in me but I see the tide as having turned for the Stark kids, especially as the show is presenting it. They are all on their way to becoming formidible players of the Game. Each is doing it in a different way of course but they are all finding a means to enacting their revenge.

They are? Jon was betrayed and stabbed by his brothers, leaving his role very much up in the air. Granted, it's likely he goes through some prophetic rebirth to become who he's supposed to be, but right now he's not winning. Arya is a nameless, faceless assassins' apprentice, and isn't even on the right continent to be relevant. Sansa might be learning from Littlefinger, but given that he's a clear sexual predator, I wouldn't say she's on her way to anything except sexual submission, which may help her defeat him, but it's a revolting price to pay. Bran is going to become a tree, and Rickon is little more than a nebulous figurehead for the North to contemplate following.

But then, the books have made it clear that so many Northern nobles and soldiers have been slaughtered at this point, that I really don't see much point in rooting for them. And those who are alive are set to kill each other, fighting for either Bolton or Stannis.

When I first read that the penultimate book of the series was to be titled 'A Time for Wolves' I gave a little fistpump and dreamed of the righteous resurgence of the Starks. Now, that book title has been changed, and I honestly think it's because GRRM realised he did too much damage to the Starks to make them relevant again. I don't imagine any of them survive the end of this series, whenever it might occur. And it often seems like that sort of ending appeals to the many nihilists who profess their love for this series (seriously, just check out the ASOIAF forums to see the amount of people clamouring for Littlefinger or Victarion to kill everyone and emerge victorious), but it really does not appeal to me.

If the show deviates far enough from the books to actually make me hope the Starks can win something, then I'll be forever greatful to D&D.

Winnief · June 29, 2014

They are? Jon was betrayed and stabbed by his brothers, leaving his role very much up in the air. Granted, it's likely he goes through some prophetic rebirth to become who he's supposed to be, but right now he's not winning. Arya is a nameless, faceless assassins' apprentice, and isn't even on the right continent to be relevant. Sansa might be learning from Littlefinger, but given that he's a clear sexual predator, I wouldn't say she's on her way to anything except sexual submission, which may help her defeat him, but it's a revolting price to pay. Bran is going to become a tree, and Rickon is little more than a nebulous figurehead for the North to contemplate following.
But then, the books have made it clear that so many Northern nobles and soldiers have been slaughtered at this point, that I really don't see much point in rooting for them. And those who are alive are set to kill each other, fighting for either Bolton or Stannis.

When I first read that the penultimate book of the series was to be titled 'A Time for Wolves' I gave a little fistpump and dreamed of the righteous resurgence of the Starks. Now, that book title has been changed, and I honestly think it's because GRRM realised he did too much damage to the Starks to make them relevant again. I don't imagine any of them survive the end of this series, whenever it might occur. And it often seems like that sort of ending appeals to the many nihilists who profess their love for this series (seriously, just check out the ASOIAF forums to see the amount of people clamouring for Littlefinger or Victarion to kill everyone and emerge victorious), but it really does not appeal to me.

If the show deviates far enough from the books to actually make me hope the Starks can win something, then I'll be forever greatful to D&D.

Well said! Yeah, again another reason for the change the show made from the books regarding Sansa-they've ignited a spark of hope that someday she'll be a real political player-and force for Stark vengeance. Jon might not have been elected LC yet, but he's clearly behaving in a leadership role and been kicking ass all season. Bran seems somehow more important and more central now to the fight against the White Walkers and while Arya is still leaving for Braavos, it's portrayed as almost a moment of triumph-the theme is the Stark kids (except for Rickon) are all in their own various ways, being groomed for greatness while having Cersei tell Tywin the truth before he died-that his precious legacy is all a lie was a particularly fitting punishment.

And yeah, I do see that nihilistic bent to a lot ASOIAF fans which appears to be why they like Littlefinger so much or express admiration for the Iron Born.

I will also say that the show's decision to show what happens to Craster's sons was an EXCELLENT way of goosing along the White Walker plot and sharply reminding viewers what the real threat is-you really can see them shifting emphasis to the Wall.

Back to TWOW-I'm also wondering if/when the Wall comes down, because it's high time that the threat beyond the Wall starts becoming a threat to everyone else in the Seven Kingdoms and thus necessitating three dragon riders to deal with it. (And perhaps being the mean sort of person I am, I want certain petty assholes out there to realize there really are things out there more important than the Iron Throne and problems that can't be solved merely by duplicity and/or Realpolitik.) I worry that Martin, (and so much of the fanbase,) have become so enamored by the KL politics, they've forgotten all about the imminent Invasion from Beyond the Wall.

I also have a theory that the saying "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell," isn't just about keeping the King of the North at home, but might be related somehow to the Wall's magic and/or the CoTF. That there was something about the Stark bloodline, (after all bran the builder built the Wall,) that's always been critical to the White Walker threat. That would justify why it was Lyanna who Rhaegar picked to be the mother of the third rider, but it would also have the effect of giving the Stark family tragedy a deeper significance. Guess what Lannisters, Bolton's, Frey's, and Lord Baelish, you've been grinding down and trying to wipe out the one House whose members we absolutely need to avert the Apocalypse! Happy now?!? (OT, but what would you do if you're Tywin or Jaime, or Cersei, or some other other Stark foe and you did learn that you needed Starks for the Long Night?!? Would you at any moment regret any of your actions?)

Avaleigh · June 29, 2014

Well said! Yeah, again another reason for the change the show made from the books regarding Sansa-they've ignited a spark of hope that someday she'll be a real political player-and force for Stark vengeance. Jon might not have been elected LC yet, but he's clearly behaving in a leadership role and been kicking ass all season. Bran seems somehow more important and more central now to the fight against the White Walkers and while Arya is still leaving for Braavos, it's portrayed as almost a moment of triumph-the theme is the Stark kids (except for Rickon) are all in their own various ways, being groomed for greatness while having Cersei tell Tywin the truth before he died-that his precious legacy is all a lie was a particularly fitting punishment.

And yeah, I do see that nihilistic bent to a lot ASOIAF fans which appears to be why they like Littlefinger so much or express admiration for the Iron Born.

I will also say that the show's decision to show what happens to Craster's sons was an EXCELLENT way of goosing along the White Walker plot and sharply reminding viewers what the real threat is-you really can see them shifting emphasis to the Wall.

Back to TWOW-I'm also wondering if/when the Wall comes down, because it's high time that the threat beyond the Wall starts becoming a threat to everyone else in the Seven Kingdoms and thus necessitating three dragon riders to deal with it. (And perhaps being the mean sort of person I am, I want certain petty assholes out there to realize there really are things out there more important than the Iron Throne and problems that can't be solved merely by duplicity and/or Realpolitik.) I worry that Martin, (and so much of the fanbase,) have become so enamored by the KL politics, they've forgotten all about the imminent Invasion from Beyond the Wall.

I also have a theory that the saying "There must always be a Stark at Winterfell," isn't just about keeping the King of the North at home, but might be related somehow to the Wall's magic and/or the CoTF. That there was something about the Stark bloodline, (after all bran the builder built the Wall,) that's always been critical to the White Walker threat. That would justify why it was Lyanna who Rhaegar picked to be the mother of the third rider, but it would also have the effect of giving the Stark family tragedy a deeper significance. Guess what Lannisters, Bolton's, Frey's, and Lord Baelish, you've been grinding down and trying to wipe out the one House whose members we absolutely need to avert the Apocalypse! Happy now?!? (OT, but what would you do if you're Tywin or Jaime, or Cersei, or some other other Stark foe and you did learn that you needed Starks for the Long Night?!? Would you at any moment regret any of your actions?)

Yeah, all I'm seeing are the Starks being set up for badass greatness in one form or another while the Lannisters are steadily losing and losing. I feel like the Starks have already braved the worst and it's the other houses who still have to really watch out for more of the Bad Stuff to be headed their way. Furthermore, if I'm being really honest I don't even really fear for the lives of any of the Stark children because it seems so unlikely for the story to go there. It couldn't be more clear IMO that Jon is destined for greatness and hasn't come close to fulfilling his potential; most everyone wants Sansa to be Queen in one way or another and I agree she has an excellent chance at either being a consort of the seven kingdoms or QotN in her own right; Bran will live as long as Bloodraven and will finally fly (through Viserion with Tyrion IMO); Rickon is going to be some fierce, savage wildling; Arya is training to be this untouchable assassin and she's arguably the favorite Stark character so again, I'm not too worried about any of their fates especially not for TWoW.

Kids around their ages I am worried about? Shireen, Tommen, Myrcella, Jeyne, and Tyrstane just to name a few.

I guess I'm not visiting the right places because I wasn't aware of this huge love for the IB. It seems like people usually complain most about those chapters and the Dornish ones. I don't mind if D&D don't care for them, I get it but I still feel that they could make Euron a compelling villain and we wouldn't need any of the sick brother raping backstory.

Littlefinger OTOH, I have noticed that he's popular but isn't that often the case with a so-called "magnificent bastard" characters? People enjoy a smart villain.

Speaking of Littlefinger, it's because of a character like Littlefinger that I care about the threat of the Others . As much as I'd like to see him hang courtesy of LS or beheaded like Ned, or pushed out of the Moon Door via Sansa, I would also just love to see this asshole squirm due to something supernatural. Just seeing him getting drunk ans scared and pissing himself as White Walkers and wights storm Harrenhaal or wherever he happens to be.

That being said, I'm one of those people who could easily enjoy the story if the White Walkers were taken out of it altogether. By far my favorite parts are the politics, battles, and the relationships between various characters. Dragons and White Walkers are fun and I certainly don't want them taken out of the story, I'm just wary of having too much emphasis placed on the supernatural in this series.

It really will be too bad if Dany is only brought to Westeros to deal with the Others. I so want t see how other POVs and characters react to her presence once she has landed. I most want to know how Stannis would react to Dany's landing and what he'd have to say about the righteousness of her claim over his. Jon's reaction interests me of course since this is asoiaf afterall..

Cersei's reaction, if she's still alive at that point should be priceless.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Avaleigh

Winnief · June 29, 2014

Speaking of Littlefinger, it's because of a character like Littlefinger that I care about the threat of the Others . As much as I'd like to see him hang courtesy of LS or beheaded like Ned, or pushed out of the Moon Door via Sansa, I would also just love to see this asshole squirm due to something supernatural. Just seeing him getting drunk ans scared and pissing himself as White Walkers and wights storm Harrenhaal or wherever he happens to be.

Personally, I will always regret that we didn't get to see Tywin's reaction to WHite Walkers or Dragons. Try solving those problems with RealPolitik and sheer brutality!

"Kevan, I want you to have the Mountain and his riders burn the fields and slay all the villagers!"

"Uh...why?"

"Because I don't know what else to do!"

And yeah, I would love to see everyone's reactions to Dany and the dragons including Cersei's. The only thing better would be Cersei's reaction to Sansa in power...

Avaleigh · June 29, 2014

Yes, Tywin's reaction to the Others would be good too. We sort of got a glimpse of how he planned on dealing with the threat of Dany and I have to say I was deeply unimpressed.( Cutler on Mad Men.) He clearly wouldn't have had a clue. I'd peg Tywin for a suicide Roman General style once he saw what he was up against.

Other interesting reactions would be Roose and Ramsay (what scares him?).

Agreed that it would be even more exciting to get Cersei's reaction to Sansa being in power.

I have mixed feelings about the Starks having this magic blood like the Targaryens but agree that it makes sense especially when I compare the relationships they have with their direwolves to the Targaryen relationships with dragons. Plus, I feel like it goes well in line with the Rhaegar/Lyanna story.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Avaleigh

Winnief · June 30, 2014

I have mixed feelings about the Starks having this magic blood like the Targaryens but agree that it makes sense especially when I compare the relationships they have with their direwolves to the Targaryen relationships with dragons. Plus, I feel like it goes well in line with the Rhaegar/Lyanna story.

Yeah, bear in mind the Starks are probably the oldest family in all Seven Kingdoms,(yet another reason the Lannister's condescending attitude to them from the beginning was so irksome,) which is certainly suggestive. And Bran is clearly a throwback to the days of Bran the Builder and other very ancient forms of magic.

Yes, Tywin's reaction to the Others would be good too. We sort of got a glimpse of how he planned on dealing with the threat of Dany and I have to say I was deeply unimpressed.( ™ Cutler on Mad Men.) He clearly wouldn't have had a clue. I'd peg Tywin for a suicide Roman General style once he saw what he was up against.

That's the thing about Tywin; for all his ruthless Strong Man antics and political guile he was utterly unprepared for the concept of these larger, metaphysical threats to Westeros. The Lannister's (with the notable exception of Tyrion,) just don't believe in or respect any kind of otherworldly forces-probably because that's one thing the Lannister's have never had going for them unlike for instance wealth and influence. To Tywin's mind problems can always be solved by money, by good wheeling dealing, and of course fear inspiring displays of brutality. The idea of an enemy that couldn't be bullied, bought, nor undermined via double dealing with other parties like Robb was with the Red Wedding-utterly alien concept to Tywin-that would probably freak him out more than the whole zombie thing. Nor could he conceive of something as foreign as Daenerys and her dragons. Hell Dany's regular army even without the dragons might have been a problem for Tywin; he typically relies on being far more ruthless, savage, and vicious than his opponents could ever dream of being. Hence his use of the Mountain and the invention of what in Westeros is known as the Castamere effect...but in Essos the Castamere effect is known as "Tuesday." He just couldn't intimidate the Unsullied the way you could peasants in the Riverlands.

Ironically/Tragically guys like Robert Baratheon, Ned, and Robb Stark however unfit they were for court games would have been a lot better equipped to deal with the White Walker situation than anyone in the current regime be it Cersei or Littlefinger is since they were all great warriors and the latter two were Northerners with strong ties to the NW.

Back to the main topic, I'm wondering if we'll ever see an assault on the Eyrie. Martin's had the characters keep repeating, "The Eyrie is impregnable" so often I've come to conclude its to have the pleasure of proving everyone wrong in the event of say-an attack by Dragons.

Minneapple · June 30, 2014

The only thing better would be Cersei's reaction to Sansa in power...

I so so so so badly want to see this. This is why I need Sansa to be the younger, more beautiful queen in Maggy's prophecy.

Yeah, again another reason for the change the show made from the books regarding Sansa-they've ignited a spark of hope that someday she'll be a real political player-and force for Stark vengeance.

Sansa's character is one of the few changes I really like about the show. At the end of AFFC, she's juuuuust starting to get it, but I sometimes want to scream at her for not getting it FASTER. I love that Show Sansa got it faster. And I'm hoping that it's an indication of things to come in WoW.

Now, that book title has been changed, and I honestly think it's because GRRM realised he did too much damage to the Starks to make them relevant again. I don't imagine any of them survive the end of this series, whenever it might occur.

Well, the Starks are scattered, not completely dead. And they're all becoming relevant in their own way. I'd actually honestly be shocked if any of the surviving Stark kids didn't make it to the end of the series. Same with Dany and Tyrion. I do think GRRM has planned for them to be the Big Heroes of the story in the end. Even GRRM wouldn't waste five books on a character like Jon only to kill him off like that. The problem is ALL THE FREAKING MEANDERING and world building in between. And the sometimes snail-like pace of the character development. I get that it hasn't been that long in actual time, but when your books encompass a thousand pages each, well, CHOP CHOP, characters, let's get moving. Edited June 30, 2014 by Minneapple

ElizaD · June 30, 2014

I disagree when I think about some of those examples. Does the state of Tywin's corpse really not count as being desecrated? What about his memory among the smallfolk? Kevan and Genna were probably the only people who truly mourned his loss.

....

Jaime's quote about how he feels that he's basically lost everything yet he's still being told that House Lannister won the war---I see where he's coming from and I don't think Tommen still being on the throne means that House Lannister hasn't taken some positively devastating hits and losses just as Houses Martell, Stark, Tully, Arryn, and Greyjoy have. The house that is missing from this list is the mostly "good" House Tyrell. Loras might well be mortally wounded but the news was delivered in such a way that I can't say I'm convinced. If anything feels somewhat lopsided it's that the Tyrells can swoop into the snakepit that is KL, participate in a regicide where they were planning on framing an innocent girl, and easily get away with it.

The deaths of Tywin and Joffrey vs. the deaths of Ned and Robb are actually some of the most depressing examples to me. Tywin gets a grand funeral with some people sniggering; Joffrey also gets a funeral and praise as Tyrion's innocent boy victim so that his true nature will never come out. Ned's head rots on a spike after he confesses to crimes he didn't commit; Robb's corpse is mutilated and there's nothing left for his family to bury. Both Lannisters die quickly when they're on top of the world and are sent on their way respectfully while criticism/mockery stays subtle; both Starks die knowing that their family will suffer and are humiliated and lied about.

While Lysa at least had a brief moment of shock at realizing how her beloved had played her and the Ironborn are too new/isolated to have encountered anyone who could try to make them pay, I dislike that Jaime quote about winning the war. He had sex with the queen under a stranger's roof and tried to murder his host's young son to cover it up. To me, the quote reads like he's essentially complaining that he didn't get away with it all as neatly as he'd like to. It's not enough that he's suffering less than the slandered, robbed and murdered victims of Lannister treason: he wishes there had been zero consequences to his actions and complains about his family's internal squabbles while avoiding punishment for his crimes, living in luxury, being Lord Commander to his bastard son, and going about the Riverlands rewarding Lannister allies. It's in character for redeemed Jaime, who doesn't bother to think about what he's done to hurt others, only himself and his abstract honor/vows, but it's still an annoying little moment.

Thankfully the Tyrells are going to face a bit of trouble in TWOW. They back Tommen and GRRM has said several people will sit on the throne before the end; Aegon probably allies himself with the Martells and takes the throne so that Dany can have the second Dance with him, and the Tyrells will at least be driven out of KL even if they don't take major hits like the rest of the houses. It might not be much (I'd gladly see them replaced as Reach #1 by the Hightowers or Florents or even Tarlys), but it's something.

Winnief · June 30, 2014

That being said, I'm one of those people who could easily enjoy the story if the White Walkers were taken out of it altogether. By far my favorite parts are the politics, battles, and the relationships between various characters. Dragons and White Walkers are fun and I certainly don't want them taken out of the story, I'm just wary of having too much emphasis placed on the supernatural in this series.

Fair enough. But to me the mains significance of the White Walkers and Dragons, is that they become an allegory for politicians and the elite fighting like wild dogs over scraps blind to the coming Tsunami like forces headed their way. The classic example of this in modern terms is Global Warming where we also have a large and influential contingent of persons who refuse to acknowledge the problem exists even as the early effects become more and more ominous.

Thankfully the Tyrells are going to face a bit of trouble in TWOW. They back Tommen and GRRM has said several people will sit on the throne before the end; Aegon probably allies himself with the Martells and takes the throne so that Dany can have the second Dance with him, and the Tyrells will at least be driven out of KL even if they don't take major hits like the rest of the houses.

I actually never disliked the Tyrell's-oh I consider Mace an oaf and his nouveau riche behavior is incredibly gauche, (rebuilding the Tower of the Hand to be three times larger- a chair for the Hand shaped like a Hand?!? Vulgar and hysterical!) and I couldn't condone them setting up Tyrion and Sansa-but I can't hate them either. But, I do feel they made a huge mistake aligning with the Lannister's, and it's gonna come back to haunt them. Hell, Mace is probably already regretting it, but now they're in too deep and there's been too many sunk costs so he feels he has to see it through. (Personally, I think the wisest course of action would be to retreat to Highgarden at this point, concentrate on keeping the Reach, and to hell with that ugly old chair but I doubt Mace will figure that out until its too late.)

Interestingly betting heavily on House Lannister doesn't seem to be working out well for anyone. House Bolton faces open rebellion only a few months after claiming Wardenship of the North, House Frey is likely to go down pretty soon (fingers crossed), Sybelle Spicer lost one son and I doubt she'll get the lordly marriages for her children she bargained for, Pycelle gets murdered after being genuinely shocked by how much damage Cersei did to the Realm and to her own House, and a lot of other Lannister bannerman must be near mutiny thanks to Cersei. I suspect we'll start to see mass desertions come Book Six. One thing I loved on the show; Davos Seaworth pointing out to the Iron Bank the big Elephant in the room...when Tywin's gone what happens to House Lannister?!? Always drove me nuts that no one in the books gave any thought to that inevitable problem until after Tywin's death. Though, arguably things were starting to fall apart even before he died; (Cersei just turned the volume on that up to eleven) and it's really a pity the old bastard didn't live long enough to see it.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Winnief

Advance35 · June 30, 2014

There are a few Freys who deserve the chopping block but I do disagree with the idea of exterminating House Frey. I just can't get behind the idea that they all should die via LS because of their asshole patriarch Walder. I was also disappointed in Sansa when she thought to herself that she'd raise her children to hate all Lannisters. It's understandable to a degree but still disappointing as it's the sort of thought I'd expect from Arya. Sansa herself recognized that Myrcella and Tommen were good kids but that still didn't stop her from grouping them in with the people she hates. We aren't in the heads of Tommen or Myrcella but it's hard for me to believe that they'd have such hostile feelings about Sansa or Starks in general. Being in a position of privilege doesn't necessarily keep people from feeling sympathetic to others especially when the people in question are eight and nine years old and seemingly sweet and sensitive.

I actually feel this is very realistic for the world GRRM has built. Nobody is an individual to outsiders. Granted not EVERY Frey was apart of the Red Wedding but since then EVERY Frey has prospered from it in terms of Political/Monetary gain. In White Harbour we learn that the wives of the visiting Frey's have had their handmaidens spying for disloyalty, one even seduces the Manderly Court Jester for info. Walder Frey can never really be gotten "even"" with because he won. Edmure is in love with Roslin and will never let anything happen to her or the child she's carrying. Walder Frey has managed to cement his bloodline into one of the 7 Great Houses which is what he always wanted. Even if he's destroyed, he'll have that comfort. It's why Lord Manderly didn't think twice about having that little Frey boy killed, in his mind, "it's only a Frey".

Jon Snow, thinks about Bran and all he's lost and cheers at the idea of "The Fat little boy king" Tommen being swallowed alive by the vengance of the Iron Bank.

While Sansa was learning the pecking order in terms of which of the Kings Guards hit's the hardest to least, Myrcella was in Dorne, frolicking in Water gardens. Your fate is very much in tune with your family and their standing in the realm. In terms of Sansa I think she might come the closest to letting bygones be bygones but at the same time, I don't think she'd shy from the death of Tommen or Myrcella if it would help House Stark in the least. She's witnessed quite a few murders by this point and even when not directly effecting her she doesn't flinch or really quail at duplicitous murder (she knows Lord Hunter in the Vale is going to soon be murdered by his younger brother).

I actually never disliked the Tyrell's-oh I consider Mace an oaf and his nouveau riche behavior is incredibly gauche, (rebuilding the Tower of the Hand to be three times larger- a chair for the Hand shaped like a Hand?!? Vulgar and hysterical!) and I couldn't condone them setting up Tyrion and Sansa-but I can't hate them either. But, I do feel they made a huge mistake aligning with the Lannister's, and it's gonna come back to haunt them. Hell, Mace is probably already regretting it, but now they're in too deep and there's been too many sunk costs so he feels he has to see it through. (Though, really, I think the best thing to do would be to retreat to Highgarden at this point, concentrate on keeping the Reach, and to hell with that ugly old chair.)

I think the Tyrells are really good at what they do. And I know many people have said it but it really is true, they are the Lannister's just MUCH more PR conscious. They had no problem allying with The Lannisters to get their hands on the Iron Throne, it was with their forces, the Lannisters were able to defeat Stannis and continue to battle Robb. They were counting on Robb Starks death and before the Lannisters were planning on acting, plotted to marry Sansa into their fold so they could have a claim on the Northern Territories. As much as this was the preferred option for Sansa, the Tyrells took advantage of the fact that she's alone and didn't have any family to make sure the match was to her advantage/interest as well. Sansa just saw a way to escape abuse so lepped at the chance. This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of their plots for regicide and framing innocent parties. The Tyrells have come a long way in truly ruling the 7 Kingdoms, they control a majority of the Kings Council (even Kevan Lannister admits Cersei is right about them), Margaery is Queen to Tommen's Kings, Mace Tyrell is acting hand of the King, they have the largest army in the Capital. I hate them/Like them and than admire their ingenuity and shamelessness.

I speculated that Margaery might be executed thanks to Varys but I think my theory has changed AGAIN because Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly are in Kings Landing and Margaery is in their custody, IF the trial doesn't go their way I can't see either one handing Margaery over no matter what they promised the Faith. I think she may try to swing onto Aegon's rising star but that's an uphill battle due to her competing against Arianne Martell and the recent public scandal, though Margaery would bring with her the love of the people and the resources of House Tyrell. Out of all the houses I think I just talked myself into thinking House Tyrell will be the ultimate winners of the Game of Thrones.

Avaleigh · June 30, 2014

I guess I disagree with the idea of the grand funeral necessarily equating a dignified exit. I'm thinking about how Tywin would have felt about his death and funeral and I'm convinced that he'd be livid and embarrassed. People laughing at him and his family? Dying on the privy and having everyone in KL know about it, so that his kids know everyone is talking about it--I disagree that his exit was grand or that he'll be fondly remembered.

Ned is seen as a victim by many people and it's worth noting that it's a Northern woman who would really have liked to have desecrated his corpse. Joffrey was primarily to blame for what happened to his head IMO.

The most important people in KL and some of Westeros are paying witness to him all foul smelling and smiling like a fool. The king vomits and runs away in tears because the smell is so awful. To me it seemed like a very undignified and embarrassing exit for a man who cared so much about the opinions of others.

The important thing for me when it comes to Joffrey's death is that he was *scared* and he knew he was going to die. Ned at least felt like he'd saved Arya and thought Catelyn, Robb, Bran, Rickon, and Jon were safe. As far as Joffrey's memory, it's true that most people didn't know that he was a monster but plenty of people did, plenty of people who matter, plus there are many who chose to hate him simply because of the incest rumors without really knowing what sort of person he was. He and Tommen are tainted with the same brush as supposedly both being this sinful incestuos spawn when anyone who'd spent about two minutes in their company together would have seen that Tommen is nothing like Joffrey, so it's frustrating to me when certain characters see them as essentially being the same.

I agree that it's realistic for family rivalries in a story like this to go on for generations but it still disappoints me when certain characters that I feel know better engage in and perpetuate the sort of behavior. I'd expect someone like Cersei to raise her children to hate people just because they happened to be born to a particular house. With characters like Jon and Sansa,especially Sansa who has noted to herself just how different Joffrey and Tommen are (and this is after Ned's death and beatings), I just wish she could find it in herself to not want to be like them when it comes to wanting to infect other people with a ruthlessly blind hatred like that.

Re Myrcella, I can't see why Sansa would assume that Myrcella is having an amazing time in Dorne while she, Sansa is being beaten and humiliated over in KL. On the show Myrcella seems sad and scared and isn't excited the way Sansa was when she first learned she'd be going to KL. In the books Myrcella is brave and it's Tommen who cries but Sansa notices the sweet bond between the siblings and again notes how different they are than Joffrey. Ultimately, I'd like to think that Sansa is lashing out with thoughts like these and that she wouldn't really be prejudiced to say, the offspring of one of Myrcella's kids or if she had to interact with some random Lannister like Cerenna that she wouldn't think it was a big deal. Sansa seems like she could have the emotional maturity to understand thatit's foolish to blame an entire bloodline for the actions of a few---I can't really see Arya ever making that distinction.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Avaleigh

mac123x · June 30, 2014

I really don't get why Martin keeps delaying Dany's arrival in Westeros like this-I know, I know the prophecy said she had to "go back to go forward," but why put that in?!?

I’m not sure anything Quaithe told her is actually a prophecy. She was right about the pale mare arriving, but after that her list of people coming to see Dany looks spotty:

1. Kraken and Dark Flame – True-ish. Victarion and Moqorro are on their way.
2. Lion and Griffin – Half right; at the time Tyrion and Connington were headed there, but Connington is in Westeros now
3. Sun’s son – True
4. Mummer’s Dragon – True at the time but now false since Aegon is in Westeros also.

I get the feeling that Quaithe is about as accurate as Mellisandre. She gets some stuff right but mistakes other signs. I really hope that means her first “prediction” was also wrong, because if “to go west, you must journey east” is true, Dany is going to have even more time-wasting filler. Even if that means she is going to approach Westeros from the Sunset Sea, we’ll have endless chapters of her fleet stopping in New Ghis, Sothyros, Qarth (again!) Asshai, Yi-Ti, yada yada.

Back to TWOW-I'm also wondering if/when the Wall comes down, because it's high time that the threat beyond the Wall starts becoming a threat to everyone else in the Seven Kingdoms and thus necessitating three dragon riders to deal with it.

The threat of the Others has been looming for 5000 pages. Maybe they were waiting for Winter, but given GRRM’s love for averting expectations, maybe they’ll never actually attack. “Yeah, Mel was wrong, Stannis isn’t Azor Ahai reborn. Neither is Dany or Jon or anyone else you expected. I’m saving that for A Song of Ice and Fire: The Next Generation. HA-ha!”

Avaleigh · June 30, 2014

Speaking for myself I'd be over the moon if Dany went to Asshai. It's the only place outside of Westeros that we haven't been where I'd like to go. Well, there and the ruins of Valyria. Those are the only two side trips I could get behind and even then I wouldn't want it to go on for too long. I feel like mentions of it in a chapter or two should be sufficient.

Alternatively, I'd be satisfied with Melisandre showing us Asshai via her memories.

Winnief · June 30, 2014

The threat of the Others has been looming for 5000 pages. Maybe they were waiting for Winter, but given GRRM’s love for averting expectations, maybe they’ll never actually attack. “Yeah, Mel was wrong, Stannis isn’t Azor Ahai reborn. Neither is Dany or Jon or anyone else you expected. I’m saving that for A Song of Ice and Fire: The Next Generation. HA-ha!”

By the Old Gods and the New No!!!

Ultimately, I'd like to think that Sansa is lashing out with thoughts like these and that she wouldn't really be prejudiced to say, the offspring of one of Myrcella's kids or if she had to interact with some random Lannister like Cerenna that she wouldn't think it was a big deal.

It's worth noting, that Sansa was the one to ask the Maester to help Lancel after he was injured at Blackwater-and that was despite her having some bitter memories of him sitting and watching while she was being beaten. She was also kind to him and Kevan at Joffrey's wedding. When she prayed for mercy at Blackwater she found herself including members of KL like Sandor and even the Imp-she just wasn't going to spare any mercy for Joffrey or Cersei.

So, I think in practice, her vow to train her children to hate the Lannisters would mean teaching them to hate Joff, Cersei, and Twyin, but not necessarily the whole family-though Sansa would always be wary of getting involved with Lannister's in the future, she wasn't going to actively seek vengeance against everyone with the name.

It's why Lord Manderly didn't think twice about having that little Frey boy killed, in his mind, "it's only a Frey".

Actually I'm not sure Manderly *was* responsible for Little Walder's death-I think Big Walder killed his cousin to put himself a step higher in the Frey succession, (that family is already starting to turn on each other in a silent civil war-I wouldn't be surprised if they end up mostly killing each other before this is through,) AND because he was disturbed by the way Little Walder was being such an Apt Pupil of Ramsay Bolton. That latter fact is why I couldn't muster any tears for the kid myself-I know he was a child but he was already showing signs of becoming another Ramsay/Joffrey type.

Advance35 · June 30, 2014

Ultimately, I'd like to think that Sansa is lashing out with thoughts like these and that she wouldn't really be prejudiced to say, the offspring of one of Myrcella's kids or if she had to interact with some random Lannister like Cerenna that she wouldn't think it was a big deal. Sansa seems like she could have the emotional maturity to understand thatit's foolish to blame an entire bloodline for the actions of a few---I can't really see Arya ever making that distinction.

I don't think she'd kill without cause but I don't think she'd hesistate to take them out if it would benefit a Stark resurrgence, and if she thought Littlefinger was going to arrange something horrific to happen to Tommen or Myrcella, I don't think she'd lift a finger to stop him. I think Sansa falls into the, she doesn't like them/hates them because their Lannisters camp. She's not out to kill them, but she would never want anything to do with them. If she ever has children I have know doubt she'll raises them with a strong aversion to Lannisters/Freys/Boltons no matter their branch. She lacks Arya's penchent for MURDEROUS retribution but I have know doubt she see's the Lannister's as the enemy. And at best views some with apathy. She doesn't hold seething hatred for Tyrion, but she's not at all bothered by him being executed for a crime he didn't commit.

And after all that's happened, I think Sansa has learned that in the world of Westeros, Compassion and Mercy is Weakness and Folly. For good or for ill.

It's worth noting, that Sansa was the one to ask the Maester to help Lancel after he was injured at Blackwater-and that was despite her having some bitter memories of him sitting and watching while she was being beaten. She was also kind to him and Kevan at Joffrey's wedding. When she prayed for mercy at Blackwater she found herself including members of KL like Sandor and even the Imp-she just wasn't going to spare any mercy for Joffrey or Cersei.

So, I think in practice, her vow to train her children to hate the Lannisters would mean teaching them to hate Joff, Cersei, and Twyin, but not necessarily the whole family-though Sansa would always be wary of getting involved with Lannister's in the future, she wasn't going to actively seek vengeance against everyone with the name.

Whoa. That's a very good point. I don't know, just Sansa's general make-up leads me to think Lannister = Enemy in her mind, BUT she is also by nature one of the more empathetic characters. I seesaw. But one almost has to view the entire family as an enemy, if Sansa was responsible for Cersei's downfall (If they were alive at that point) do you doubt that Tommen and Myrcella would make Sansa pay for it if they could. Lannister's and their debts and all.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Advance35

Avaleigh · June 30, 2014

I think that the Tyrells are really good at what they do. And I know many people have said it but it really is true, they are the Lannister's just MUCH more PR conscious. They had no problem allying with The Lannisters to get their hands on the Iron Throne, it was with their forces, the Lannisters were able to defeat Stannis and continue to battle Robb. They were counting on Robb Starks death and before the Lannisters were planning on acting, plotted to marry Sansa into their fold so they could have a claim on the Northern Territories. As much as this was the preferred option for Sansa, the Tyrells took advantage of the fact that she's alone and didn't have any family to make sure the match was to her advantage/interest as well. Sansa just saw a way to escape abuse so lepped at the chance. This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of their plots for regicide and framing innocent parties. The Tyrells have come a long way in truly ruling the 7 Kingdoms, they control a majority of the Kings Council (even Kevan Lannister admits Cersei is right about them), Margaery is Queen to Tommen's Kings, Mace Tyrell is acting hand of the King, they have the largest army in the Capital. I hate them/Like them and than admire their ingenuity and shamelessness.

I speculated that Margaery might be executed thanks to Varys but I think my theory has changed AGAIN because Mace Tyrell and Randyll Tarly are in Kings Landing and Margaery is in their custody, IF the trial doesn't go their way I can't see either one handing Margaery over no matter what they promised the Faith. I think she may try to swing onto Aegon's rising star but that's an uphill battle due to her competing against Arianne Martell and the recent public scandal, though Margaery would bring with her the love of the people and the resources of House Tyrell. Out of all the houses I think I just talked myself into thinking House Tyrell will be the ultimate winners of the Game of Thrones.

I fully admit that I will be beyond frustrated if the Tyrells manage to weasel Aegon into even considering Margaery let alone actually marry her. The Tyrells were foolish enough to back Renly who easily had the weakest claim, they're still allowed to smell like roses even though they are in bed with Lannisters, they're murderous in their own right, greedy, duplicitous, disloyal, arrogant, etc. I'm positive that half the reason they irritate me so much is that they think they're above it all. They're down in the dirt with their allies but it's the Lannisters who continue to take the heavy hits while houses like Bolton, Frey, Tyrell, and others get the benefits of the association with House Lannister with minimal (so far) fall out.

I also find it incredibly irritating that an idiot like Mace is technically the most powerful man in the realm. I still want to throttle Cersei for not choosing Randyll Tarly back when she had the chance. And somewhere in Mace's head he probably thinks he's qualified for the position.

I love the suggestion of the Hightowers becoming the Great House in the Reach after the fall of the Tyrells. The Tarlys would work for me too.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Avaleigh

Skeeter22 · June 30, 2014

The more I think about it, the more I'll be annoyed if Dany gets to sweep into Westeros with her dragons to take on the Others instead of getting her hands dirty and dealing with the complex, human factions that make up the ruling class of Westeros. She hasn't dealt with a fully realized antagonist since Mirri Maz Duur in the first book. None of her opponents in Essos have been much more than stock villains, and ice zombies aren't exactly complex villains with understandable motives. I know people are annoyed by the idea that Aegon will steal Dany's thunder by getting to Westeros first, but I would be shocked if Aegon isn't just cannon fodder that GRRM uses to clear the board of any threats, giving Dany the path of least resistance.

Hecate7 · June 30, 2014

I have the weirdest relationship with these books. I can't wait for the next one, I can barely wait for the next episode of the show, and yet each installment makes me more cynical and pessimistic about what the story is actually about, or what's going to happen. I can't even decide if this is good or not, but I keep coming back for more.

Winnief · June 30, 2014

I also find it incredibly irritating that an idiot like Mace is technically the most powerful man in the realm. I still want to throttle Cersei for not choosing Randyll Tarly back when she had the chance. And somewhere in Mace's head he probably thinks he's qualified for the position.

Oh Mace is definitely the Dunning-Kroeger effect in action. So for that matter is Cersei. I actually think I would have liked Mathis Rowan for Hand ever better than Tarly. The latter is undoubtedly a great soldier and so would have been a logical choice for Hand in a time of war, but I can't quite get over what a huge prick he is, while Mathis always came across as a decent guy as well as competent. Of course best of all would have been Kevan and have Cersei leave for the Rock.

The more I think about it, the more I'll be annoyed if Dany gets to sweep into Westeros with her dragons to take on the Others instead of getting her hands dirty and dealing with the complex, human factions that make up the ruling class of Westeros. She hasn't dealt with a fully realized antagonist since Mirri Maz Duur in the first book. None of her opponents in Essos have been much more than stock villains, and ice zombies aren't exactly complex villains with understandable motives. I know people are annoyed by the idea that Aegon will steal Dany's thunder by getting to Westeros first, but I would be shocked if Aegon isn't just cannon fodder that GRRM uses to clear the board of any threats, giving Dany the path of least resistance.

That sounds disturbingly plausible and yet another reason to hope D&D scrap Aegon and get Dany started for Westeros by the end of Season 5 to take the place of Aegon and the GC's invasion so they can actually have Dany interacting with Westerosi politics and some more of the established characters. One change D&D made that I really liked was with Hizdarh-instead of him being a mustachioed villain, he comes to Dany asking leave to bury his father and informing her that his dad had been opposed to the child murder. It was a great moment and as many noted the byplay between Daenerys and him was not only compelling but frankly they had more chemistry than she and Daario did.

For the record, while one should never say never, I'd be very, VERY surprised if Margaery/Aegon happened-three tries at marrying a King are enough for any girl and Arianne is likely to get there first I think Olenna was right, (she usually is,) when she said the Tyrell's should have stayed well out of the whole War of Five Kings and they''ll be damn lucky if they keep Highgarden when all this is done-much less have anyone anywhere near the throne.

I have the weirdest relationship with these books. I can't wait for the next one, I can barely wait for the next episode of the show, and yet each installment makes me more cynical and pessimistic about what the story is actually about, or what's going to happen. I can't even decide if this is good or not, but I keep coming back for more.

It is a truly twisted dynamic isn't it?!? Martin is arguably one of the most sadistic writers out there.

mac123x · June 30, 2014

I have the weirdest relationship with these books. I can't wait for the next one, I can barely wait for the next episode of the show, and yet each installment makes me more cynical and pessimistic about what the story is actually about, or what's going to happen. I can't even decide if this is good or not, but I keep coming back for more.

I agree. It’s kind of like Lost, in that I’m hoping for a satisfying resolution but I’m preparing to be seriously disappointed. Given the time he’s taking between books, I’m pretty much assuming Author Existence Failure will come into play. Morbid, I know.

At least D&D allegedly know what the end-game is, so the TV series should be able to finish off satisfactorily, assuming D&D aren’t hacks [he typed while looking in Damon Lindelof’s general direction].

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