All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Heathen]

23 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Fixed that for ya.  ;-)

She's stupefyingly awful.  Unbearable, really.  I almost skipped L&O: SVU because of Mariska Hargitay, I hated Cynthia so much. 

Is she really as annoying as Janice (HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE)? 

[Growsonwalls]

6 hours ago, Camille said:

It's one of my favorite episodes and I agree with everything you wrote here. While Mark did need to "get his head out of ass", as Doug so eloquently put it, Mark's father not being absent or explicitly abusive doesn't equal him being perfect.

I LOVE that scene where Mark won't quit teasing Doug about reconciling with Carol--"Does she make you take a lie detector test every week or something?"--and Doug getting annoyed and spraying him with beer. It was nice to see the old Mark again for a few minutes.

 

It's this scene. I love it. Doug always brings out a playful, witty side of Mark.

 

As for Cynthia, that was when I felt the character of Mark sort of jumped the shark. She was so stupefyingly annoying and awful that Mark being infatuated enough to buy her an expensive necklace just made no sense. I also had a hard time believing that Mark, who prided himself on professionalism, would hire Cynthia after her embarrassing interview performance and no references, and I also couldn't believe how quickly they jumped into bed together. 

With that being said, Doug's constant snark of Cynthia was one of the more humorous storylines in Season 4.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[freddi]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

As for Cynthia, that was when I felt the character of Mark sort of jumped the shark. She was so stupefyingly annoying and awful that Mark being infatuated enough to buy her an expensive necklace (before Doug talked him out of it) just made no sense. I also had a hard time believing that Mark, who prided himself on professionalism, would hire Cynthia after her embarrassing interview performance and no references, and I also couldn't believe how quickly they jumped into bed together. With that being said, Doug's constant snark of Cynthia was one of the more humorous storylines in Season 4.

It is not that Mark was infatuated with he, it was that she was such a pro at manipulating him and soooooooooooo needy.  What an awful combination of qualities.   She really came across as an orphaned 12-year-old in her lack of full personality.  I remember when Carol had to explain about how it was not appropriate to have sex in the common room, so icky.  (Of course Carol herself would be caught with Doug in there shortly thereafter.)  

[Growsonwalls]

Ok I just watched the episodes where Jeanie claims she was fired because of her HIV+ status and while I know that Kerry was very kind to Jeanie and in her mind didn't fire Jeanie because of her HIV status, I also think the issue is more ambiguous than a simple right or wrong. I think Kerry could have saved Jeanie's job if she really wanted to, but she gave herself a raise instead. I also think Kerry got her head too deep into corporate management and became more of a paper-pusher than a doctor, and her cold responses and lack of bedside manner to patients reflect that. Was what Jeanie did shitty? Yeah, but I was also on her side as she fought to get her job back. We've only seen sweet, accommodating Jeanie. It was good to see that there was a harder, darker side to her.

Actually if there's something that bothers me about Season 4 it's that for the first time we see the staff acting in blatantly unprofessional ways. Like Cynthia the desk clerk seemingly thinking the ER is some romantic date-night, or Mark drinking the night away and blowing off patients AND allowing a lawyer to "scrub in" and pretend to be a doctor, or Kerry screaming at people in Carol's clinic. Or Carter's succession of ever more incompetent med students. Corday, Benton, Carter, Doug, Carol, Doyle, Anna and Jeanie all maintain a level of professionalism no matter what's happening in their personal lives, but the rest of the ER is like a shitshow. And that's just not the same energy as Seasons 1-3 where the characters made mistakes but were never outright unprofessional.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Bastet]

6 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Was what Jeanie did shitty? Yeah, but I was also on her side as she fought to get her job back.

I completely support that, too, and I'd have to watch it again to catch the nuance, but I recall that Kerry truly did act based on numbers as dictated to her to reduce staff, rather than using those numbers as a pretext to fire a specific someone based on her HIV status (something that could not be said of Anspaugh and the rest above Kerry; it was absolutely motivated by her illness when it comes to their actions, but my memory is that Kerry had no discriminatory pretext). 

So, unless my memory is skewed (entirely possible; there's something about this show that has never stuck in my brain as others have - it was always just something I watched from week to week and then largely forgot about, and syndication didn't change that despite the compressed time frame), not only did Jeanie's behavior towards Kerry during the lawsuit ignore all Kerry's previous support of her (I will forever love Kerry as contrasted with Mark as they hashed out the vague and conflicting state/federal laws and what to do), which is understandable when asserting one's rights, it specifically shit on Kerry's lack of culpability specific to the termination at issue.

[Ceindreadh]

19 hours ago, starri said:

But Romano and Frank weren’t the only characters. The stuff about Ross’ ex and Chandler’s father came from all six of the Friends. 

And I’ve been racking my brain, and aside from Julie, I can’t think of a love interest one of the characters had that wasn’t white. 

The difference is that Romano and Frank were intended to be arseholes. They were the characters that got given the ignorant comments to say so that the rest of the characters could show how enlightened they were.   The audience is supposed to condemn Romano and Frank for their comments and behaviour  

With Friends though, these are the main characters and supposedly the good guys with the audience on their side. Which makes it worse when they’re saying offensive things. 

[starri]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

The difference is that Romano and Frank were intended to be arseholes. They were the characters that got given the ignorant comments to say so that the rest of the characters could show how enlightened they were.   The audience is supposed to condemn Romano and Frank for their comments and behaviour  

That, and Frank was a grumpy, small-minded guy who ultimately became a big softie was learned to be less small-minded.  When Neela left, they went out of their way to show Frank apologizing for how he'd treated her at first.  Doing it with a piñata of Gandhi's head was a bit odd, but he meant well and was sincere in what he said to her.

I think they could have done a similar trajectory with Romano, but they seem to have lost the plot on him somewhere around the time he lost his arm.  And ultimately, I think the out and out sexual harassment of Maggie was completely unforgivable.

[Growsonwalls]

9 hours ago, Bastet said:

I completely support that, too, and I'd have to watch it again to catch the nuance, but I recall that Kerry truly did act based on numbers as dictated to her to reduce staff, rather than using those numbers as a pretext to fire a specific someone based on her HIV status (something that could not be said of Anspaugh and the rest above Kerry; it was absolutely motivated by her illness when it comes to their actions, but my memory is that Kerry had no discriminatory pretext). 

So, unless my memory is skewed (entirely possible; there's something about this show that has never stuck in my brain as others have - it was always just something I watched from week to week and then largely forgot about, and syndication didn't change that despite the compressed time frame), not only did Jeanie's behavior towards Kerry during the lawsuit ignore all Kerry's previous support of her (I will forever love Kerry as contrasted with Mark as they hashed out the vague and conflicting state/federal laws and what to do), which is understandable when asserting one's rights, it specifically shit on Kerry's lack of culpability specific to the termination at issue.

Well when I watched it I could see both Kerry's POV and Jeanie's POV. Kerry was told by Anspaugh that she needed to lay off staff. OTOH Kerry also did give herself a raise, which when numbers are tight is not a great idea ...

Jeanie OTOH felt that Kerry's attitude had changed after "When the Bough Breaks" when Jeanie treated the bus accident patient and could have mixed blood with that patient. I could see Jeanie's POV: her shitty husband Al is moving to Atlanta, Kerry had strong words with her over the treatment of a patient, and she got fired, all within a short timespan.

The other thing I missed that I got on rewatch was that Jeanie had a lot of support among the staff to fight the termination. Specifically both Doyle and Carol (who wasn't even particularly close to Jeanie) urged Jeanie to fight the termination. I think this emboldened Jeanie. 

So it was a lot more ambiguous on rewatch whether Jeanie was completely shitty. 

I agree though that even if Jeanie fought the termination suit she should have explained to Kerry her reasoning rather than coldly blowing her off. I also think that when Jeanie finally quits County in Seaon 6 Kerry's offer that "there will always be a job for you here" was extraordinarily gracious and lovely.

[starri]

I really loved Kerry and Jeanie's friendship, and that apart from that one aberration, it was always a really supportive one.  When Gloria Reuben made her guest appearance in the final season, having Jeanie being very upset that she didn't know any of the staff, and especially that Kerry wasn't there any more, was a nice touch.

She really had one of my favorite send-offs.  She walked out of the ER and into the rest of her life with a big, happy smile on her face and a "my work here is done" attitude.

[Growsonwalls]

6 hours ago, starri said:

I think they could have done a similar trajectory with Romano, but they seem to have lost the plot on him somewhere around the time he lost his arm.  And ultimately, I think the out and out sexual harassment of Maggie was completely unforgivable.

Not just Maggie, but his scenes with Corday in Season 4 make me cringe. It wasn't exactly harassment per se, but it was definitely inappropriate and there was this undercurrent of quid pro quo especially in the way he dangled surgical assignments in front of Corday and Benton. Thankfully Corday was very self-possessed and seemed to blow it off but ... yuck. Although it was funny to see him hitting on Corday who towered over him.

Edited September 1, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, starri said:

I really loved Kerry and Jeanie's friendship, and that apart from that one aberration, it was always a really supportive one.  When Gloria Reuben made her guest appearance in the final season, having Jeanie being very upset that she didn't know any of the staff, and especially that Kerry wasn't there any more, was a nice touch.

She really had one of my favorite send-offs.  She walked out of the ER and into the rest of her life with a big, happy smile on her face and a "my work here is done" attitude.

I just wish her sendoff had been more realistic. I know it's dramatic license, but the whole storyline about Carlos was absurd. 

[Growsonwalls]

13 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I just wish her sendoff had been more realistic. I know it's dramatic license, but the whole storyline about Carlos was absurd. 

What;s more absurd is that Jeanie who fought so hard to keep her job and fought so hard to strengthen the role of physician assistants in hospitals AND struggled with medical bills because of her HIV+ status would all of a sudden be like "fuck work. I want to be a stay-at-home mom now." I've said this before but work ethic is IMO one of the hardest things to change about a person. Like when Benton left the show he didn't just go chill on a beach -- his son had special needs so he needed a less stressful job but he still was working as a doctor. 

And I have a million and one problems with both the way Doug Ross was written out of the show AND the way Carol's character was handled after Doug left but one of the things that ER got right was in that final season, Doug was an attending physician in Seattle and Carol mentioned that he had been "on since last night" and was working overtime. And Carol's still a hard worker too. That was realistic. They leave County General, but they don't leave the profession and their personality doesn't undergo a huge transplant.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

What;s more absurd is that Jeanie who fought so hard to keep her job and fought so hard to strengthen the role of physician assistants in hospitals AND struggled with medical bills because of her HIV+ status would all of a sudden be like "fuck work. I want to be a stay-at-home mom now." I've said this before but work ethic is IMO one of the hardest things to change about a person. Like when Benton left the show he didn't just go chill on a beach -- his son had special needs so he needed a less stressful job but he still was working as a doctor. 

And I have a million and one problems with both the way Doug Ross was written out of the show AND the way Carol's character was handled after Doug left but one of the things that ER got right was in that final season, Doug was an attending physician in Seattle and Carol mentioned that he had been "on since last night" and was working overtime. And Carol's still a hard worker too. That was realistic. They lad eave County General, but they don't leave the profession and their personality doesn't undergo a huge transplant.

We did learn when Jeannie returned that she had been working at an HIV clinic and was somewhat of an activist in that area.  Had she perhaps been offered such a position years earlier and left the show for that sort of opportunity, it would've been more in character for her, IMO.  I do recall Gloria Reubens saying that she asked TPTB for a happy ending for Jeannie.   it also ticked me off when she returned that she and Reggie were no longer together.  Almost nobody on the show got a happy, lasting relationship other than Doug and Carol; it would've been nice if Jeannie's second marriage had stayed strong.  They even brought Reggie back for the episode, its not like they couldn't have stayed together and still disagreed about their son's care.

[Growsonwalls]

4 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

We did learn when Jeannie returned that she had been working at an HIV clinic and was somewhat of an activist in that area.  Had she perhaps been offered such a position years earlier and left the show for that sort of opportunity, it would've been more in character for her, IMO.  I do recall Gloria Reubens saying that she asked TPTB for a happy ending for Jeannie.   it also ticked me off when she returned that she and Reggie were no longer together.  Almost nobody on the show got a happy, lasting relationship other than Doug and Carol; it would've been nice if Jeannie's second marriage had stayed strong.  They even brought Reggie back for the episode, its not like they couldn't have stayed together and still disagreed about their son's care.

Benton and Cleo stayed together, and Abby and Luka. But I too was disappointed that Jeanie didn't stay together with Reggie. Again, sort of out of character: we know from her relationship with Al and her colleagues that Jeanie's the type to try to make things work as much as possible. And I agree, would have been more realistic for Jeanie to have left County to work at an HIV clinic. But instead her blowing off work, and then sort of half-ass quitting is out of character. Her only coming to work twice in three weeks? Not the Jeanie I knew and loved.

[doodlebug]

10 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Benton and Cleo stayed together, and Abby and Luka. But I too was disappointed that Jeanie didn't stay together with Reggie. Again, sort of out of character: we know from her relationship with Al and her colleagues that Jeanie's the type to try to make things work as much as possible. And I agree, would have been more realistic for Jeanie to have left County to work at an HIV clinic. But instead her blowing off work, and then sort of half-ass quitting is out of character. Her only coming to work twice in three weeks? Not the Jeanie I knew and loved.

I don't exactly count Benton and Cleo since she didn't appear in the last season, and, in talking to Carter about her, he didn't seem all that excited about the relationship and he surely lit up like a Christmas tree when he saw Lizzie.  He also said they'd never married.  It seemed out of character for both Peter and Cleo (as much character as she was capable of having) that they wouldn't have married by then if things were all that wonderful.  They both seemingly came from middle class backgrounds and parents who were married for the long haul.

I don't count Abby and Luka as getting a happy ending because their marriage was a mess from the get-go.  After all, they lieft town in the wake of her drunken sex romp with her boss.  Not exactly the basis for lasting love, IMO.

[Growsonwalls]

35 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

I don't exactly count Benton and Cleo since she didn't appear in the last season, and, in talking to Carter about her, he didn't seem all that excited about the relationship and he surely lit up like a Christmas tree when he saw Lizzie.  He also said they'd never married.  It seemed out of character for both Peter and Cleo (as much character as she was capable of having) that they wouldn't have married by then if things were all that wonderful.  They both seemingly came from middle class backgrounds and parents who were married for the long haul.

I don't count Abby and Luka as getting a happy ending because their marriage was a mess from the get-go.  After all, they lieft town in the wake of her drunken sex romp with her boss.  Not exactly the basis for lasting love, IMO.

True. Abby and Luka were a hot mess and the Abby/Luka/Carter love triangle was so tiresome. This might be an unpopular opinion but IMO the issues with Abby also had to do with Maura Tierney. On SHO's The Affair she's also a nervous, unlikable character. 

As for Carol and Doug having the one fairy-tale happy ending, wasn't that due to the insistence of both Marguiles and Clooney? I remember reading that Clooney felt very strongly that Carol had potential as his big love interest when the pilot was shooting and therefore Carol wasn't killed off in the first episode. And that the two of them were pretty insistent that Doug and Carol get together. And Clooney also insisted on returning for Marguiles' departure because he wanted the fans of the show to get that happy ending.

One thought: in Season 1, Doug's then-girlfriend (the really rich one) called Carol Doug's "Sleepless in Seattle" type love. And then in Season 15, Doug is actually sleepless in Seattle, as he's been dealing with the donor prospect all night and so therefore worked both the night shift and the day shift. And the final scene is of Doug and Carol sleeping happily in Seattle after their long day. I thought it was a nice way to bookend their relationship from Season 1-15.

ETA: I was a little bothered that in Season 15 Carol introduces herself as "Carol Hathaway." Since she and Doug are clearly married I thought she'd have used "Carol Ross." I know many women keep their maiden names after they marry and it's a personal choice and I totally respect it but Carol doesn't seem like the type who would? 

Edited September 1, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[MVFrostsMyPie]

I kind of like that she didn't change her name. I like it general when women keep their maiden names though. Maybe she felt like 'Carol Ross' just doesn't sound as appealing as 'Carol Hathaway', haha. 

 

(Or most likely, the writers just dropped the ball on that one). 

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I kind of like that she didn't change her name. I like it general when women keep their maiden names though. Maybe she felt like 'Carol Ross' just doesn't sound as appealing as 'Carol Hathaway', haha. 

 

(Or most likely, the writers just dropped the ball on that one). 

I feel like Carol is exactly the type who would keep her name professionally.  She was proud to be a nurse, chose it above becoming a doctor.  I could see her also not wanting to be known as ‘Dr Ross’ wife’ but as ‘Ms Hathaway, transplant coordinator’.  At no time would she ever want anyone to think she got a boost from marrying a doc, all of her career achievements were her own.

I might also be projecting a little since, as the first one in the family to get the opportunity to go to medical school, keeping my own name has always been my plan.  When she was alive, my mom used to love calling my office just to hear the receptionist answer with my name.

[Growsonwalls]

Oh I like it when women keep their maiden names, especially nowadays when women have bank accounts, professional reputations, etc. in their own name and aren't ready to sign it all over to their husbands they way they would have in the bad old days. I just thought Carol would be the type to want to take her husband's name. I agree though "Carol Ross" doesn't sound as nice as "Carol Hathaway." I also think that "Tess Ross" and "Kate Ross" don't have much a ring to them. 

ETA: the reason I think Carol would be the type to take her husband's name is that she left behind Chicago because she wanted to reunite her family. And she admits that she's basically dreamed about being Mrs. Doug Ross since she was 23 years old. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[txhorns79]

Quote

ETA: the reason I think Carol would be the type to take her husband's name is that she left behind Chicago because she wanted to reunite her family. And she admits that she's basically dreamed about being Mrs. Doug Ross since she was 23 years old. 

I can see Carol keeping "Hathaway" as her professional name, while being known as Carol Ross in her personal life. 

Quote

I was rather annoyed when Abby and Luca didn't have a real wedding either but had a pretend TV wedding with coworkers in a magical loft (really? Who DOES that?) because it was cheaper than actually hiring new actors to portray Luca's family or bring back Sally Fields and the guy who played Abby's brother.

I brought this over from the guest star thread because this bugged the crap out of me.  Who would put their potential spouse into a situation where they would feel pressured into a "surprise" wedding ceremony?  And yeah, it was glaring that Abby's family didn't attend.  And speaking of that, why did they introduce Abby's father only to drop that storyline entirely?   

Edited September 2, 2018 by txhorns79

[doodlebug]

18 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I can see Carol keeping "Hathaway" as her professional name, while being known as Carol Ross in her personal life. 

I brought this over from the guest star thread because this bugged the crap out of me.  Who would put their potential spouse into a situation where they would feel pressured into a "surprise" wedding ceremony?  And yeah, it was glaring that Abby's family didn't attend.  And speaking of that, why did they introduce Abby's father only to drop that storyline entirely?   

 

There was nothing romantic or wonderful about springing a surprise wedding on her.  It was actually kind of creepy and controlling.  If she didn’t want to plan a wedding, then go to city hall or forget the whole thing.  Abby’s total emotional collapse when Luka’s father got sick just proved her point, she wasn’t capable of being anyone’s wife.  

I understand by that point in the show, they weren’t going to pay out for Sally Field or Tom E. Scott, but there were far better options than Luka essentially bullying Abby into marrying him. 

TPTB also seemed to think that it was just so adorable and quirky that Abby couldn’t pull the trigger on a wedding.  She was pushing 40, had been married before and lived with the father of her child.  She was also the one who wanted the engagement  after turning him down repeatedly first.  There was nothing charming about a middle aged woman behaving like a teenager trying to decide on a date for the prom.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

ETA: the reason I think Carol would be the type to take her husband's name is that she left behind Chicago because she wanted to reunite her family. And she admits that she's basically dreamed about being Mrs. Doug Ross since she was 23 years old. 

But she's grown up since then.  Not that changing one's name upon marriage is inherently immature, but dreaming about being Mrs. Somebody is pretty teenager-y, and so much of their pre-show relationship was her swooning after him.  Fast forward, and having gone through the difficulties of their relationship, having kids while living separately, and then ultimately giving up pretty much her whole life to move to be with him, I don't think she's walking around with juvenile goggles on anymore. 

And she doesn't need to change her name to reunite her family; moving to the other side of the country, leaving her other family, her job, and her friends behind, so they can all live together takes care of that quite thoroughly.

I'm glad her name wasn't one more thing she gave up.  Full disclosure: I dislike it when women change their names; you do you and all that, but it's rooted in an offensive tradition that I think lingers despite the changes, and I'd like to see the practice die off, but I'd be happy if it stops becoming an assumption that women have to come up with a reason to justify veering from.  But beyond my general feelings, there's nothing specifically about Carol that makes me think she'd after all this time decide to become Carol Ross.  I didn't even remember that we learned they'd married, but it doesn't surprise me to learn she kept her name when they did. She has an identity, not to mention a professional reputation attached to that name.  I don't think she'd get angry if she met someone socially as Doug's wife and received a "Nice to meet you, Mrs. Ross" in response - I think she'd just say, "Carol Hathaway, and it's nice to meet you too" - or anything like that, but I also don't think she'd change her name. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Bastet

[Growsonwalls]

Ok for all of Kerry's moments I think Season 4 Episode 11 had the biggest "Kerry sucks" moment when she gets jealous/mad that Anspaugh chooses Mark and Jeanie to take care of his son who is dying of cancer. She didn't seem particularly concerned that a scared 12 year old kid was being dragged into the hospital for another round of medical tests, or how difficult a situation this was for Anspaugh. Just that he wanted Mark and Jeanie to take care of Scott. It's incredibly petty and insensitive -- a 12 year old kid of a colleague is going to die of cancer and you want this to be an office power play? 

And I must say I ugly cried at the scenes of Scott and Jeanie. What a touching storyline.

6 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I'm glad her name wasn't one more thing she gave up.  Full disclosure: I dislike it when women change their names; you do you and all that, but it's rooted in an offensive tradition that I think lingers despite the changes, and I'd like to see the practice die off, but I'd be happy if it stops becoming an assumption that women have to come up with a reason to justify veering from.  But beyond my general feelings, there's nothing specifically about Carol that makes me think she'd after all this time decide to become Carol Ross.  I didn't even remember that we learned they'd married, but it doesn't surprise me to learn she kept her name when they did. She has an identity, not to mention a professional reputation attached to that name.  I don't think she'd get angry if she met someone socially as Doug's wife and received a "Nice to meet you, Mrs. Ross" in response - I think she'd just say, "Carol Hathaway, and it's nice to meet you to" - or anything like that, but I also don't think she'd change her name. 

We learn that they're married because both Doug and Carol are wearing wedding rings in "Old Times." I don't have a problem with women either changing their names or not changing their names. It's their choice. Another thing made me think she'd change her name is when Luka referred to Tess and Kate as the "Hathaway twins" and she said that their last name was Ross.

Speaking of Doug and Carol, I just watched the episode where she kisses the paramedic and god that storyline is annoying. But the shitty thing about Carol was not that she kissed Greg. These things happen. I've randomly locked lips with people in the moment and it can either mean a lot or it can mean nothing. Carol pulled away immediately and she didn't go any further or cross any major boundaries. The shitty thing was that she told Doug about the kiss. Why'd she tell him? What purpose did it serve? That was a thing where honesty was NOT the best policy.

[doodlebug]

50 minutes ago, Bastet said:

  I didn't even remember that we learned they'd married, but it doesn't surprise me to learn she kept her name when they did. She has an identity, not to mention a professional reputation attached to that name.  I don't think she'd get angry if she met someone socially as Doug's wife and received a "Nice to meet you, Mrs. Ross" in response - I think she'd just say, "Carol Hathaway, and it's nice to meet you too" - or anything like that, but I also don't think she'd change her name. 

 

We were never told that they’d married but both of them were wearing wedding bands in their final appearance.  I liked that there was no big announcement, they knew the fans would be looking and didn’t feel the need to elaborate. 

[Growsonwalls]

16 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

We were never told that they’d married but both of them were wearing wedding bands in their final appearance.  I liked that there was no big announcement, they knew the fans would be looking and didn’t feel the need to elaborate. 

Because I'm a nerd like that and it's all available on hulu:

Doug's ring:

Edited September 2, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[starri]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

We learn that they're married because both Doug and Carol are wearing wedding rings in "Old Times." I don't have a problem with women either changing their names or not changing their names. It's their choice. Another thing made me think she'd change her name is when Luka referred to Tess and Kate as the "Hathaway twins" and she said that their last name was Ross.

 

At this point in history, I find it more surprising when women do take their husband's names than when they don't.  Although by nature, a lot of my female friends are also doctors, and it can be a PITA to change your name with all the various and sundry licensing and credentials agencies, so perhaps my sample is biased.

I guess at least she wasn't calling herself "Ofdoug," so...

[Heathen]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I brought this over from the guest star thread because this bugged the crap out of me.  Who would put their potential spouse into a situation where they would feel pressured into a "surprise" wedding ceremony?  And yeah, it was glaring that Abby's family didn't attend.  And speaking of that, why did they introduce Abby's father only to drop that storyline entirely?   

Not only that, how the hell did Luka manage to get a marriage license without Abby's presence? 

[Growsonwalls]

34 minutes ago, starri said:

At this point in history, I find it more surprising when women do take their husband's names than when they don't.  Although by nature, a lot of my female friends are also doctors, and it can be a PITA to change your name with all the various and sundry licensing and credentials agencies, so perhaps my sample is biased.

I guess at least she wasn't calling herself "Ofdoug," so...

I'm not a doctor, just a teacher, and I also know that many teachers nowadays choose to keep their maiden names because of licensing, payroll, insurance, pension, blah blah blah. More of a PITA to change your name than not. But ER was over 25 years ago. Keeping your maiden name wasn't that common back then, even for professionals. 

Anyway getting back to Season 4, did Alex Kingston kick the writers' puppies or what? She was such an appealing, self-confident surgeon in Season 4. A real breath of fresh air and a nice foil to Benton/Romano/Anspaugh who have the more "typical" surgeon personalities. But after Season 4 this nice confident lady became unrecognizable by the time she hooked up with Mark.

I thought Anna getting so mad at Carter for being reluctant to give blood to the serial rapist was sort of unbelievable. I know Anna is very rigid in her thinking but I don't think Anna would not understand Carter's decision. 

On a lighter note, Doug attempting to be "sympathetic" to a crying Cynthia will never be not funny.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Heathen]

9 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm not a doctor, just a teacher, and I also know that many teachers nowadays choose to keep their maiden names because of licensing, payroll, insurance, pension, blah blah blah. More of a PITA to change your name than not. But ER was over 25 years ago. Keeping your maiden name wasn't that common back then, even for professionals. 

Anyway getting back to Season 4, did Alex Kingston kick the writers' puppies or what? She was such an appealing, self-confident surgeon in Season 4. A real breath of fresh air and a nice foil to Benton/Romano/Anspaugh who have the more "typical" surgeon personalities. But after Season 4 this nice confident lady became unrecognizable by the time she hooked up with Mark.

On a lighter note, Doug attempting to be "sympathetic" to a crying Cynthia will never be not funny.

The show started in 1994. Carol left at the end of season six, which would have been 2000? Not so uncommon by then for professional women to keep their own surnames, at least in my area. YMMV. 

I'm watching the season two episode where Mrs. Saunders, the obese, "postmenopausal" woman has unexpected twins, and Benton delivers them. Her daughter looked mid-thirties, at least. How old was that woman supposed to be?! 

In the same episode, Carter is talking to Mr. Rubidoux about Mrs. Rubidoux going to long-term care. Mrs. Rubidoux's first name apparently changed over time -- here Ruby calls her his Helen, but I remember other episodes in which she's called Sophie. Some writer lost the Post-It note that had the characters' names written on it, I guess. 

[Growsonwalls]

4 minutes ago, Heathen said:

I'm watching the season two episode where Mrs. Saunders, the obese, "postmenopausal" woman has unexpected twins, and Benton delivers them. Her daughter looked mid-thirties, at least. How old was that woman supposed to be?! 

Actually I've known cases like these, really weirdly spaced families. For instance I know a girl (let's call her Kat) who had a baby at 17 years old. Her mother who had her at 17 was at the same time pregnant with twins. So this girl (let's call her Skylar) had aunts who were actually younger than her. And the mom was only 34 years old. Totally conceivable that in 10 years the mom could have had another kid, and Kat would have been 27 and had a sister 27 years younger. Stuff like this happens in families that have kids when really young. 

"Family Practice" has to be the worst out-of-ER episode yet. It's all the things "Fathers and Sons" wasn't. It's tedious, and annoying Cynthia is there to ruin it even more. 

[Heathen]

Just now, Growsonwalls said:

Actually I've known cases like these, really weirdly spaced families. For instance I know a girl (let's call her Kat) who had a baby at 17 years old. Her mother who had her at 17 was at the same time pregnant with twins. So this girl (let's call her Skylar) had aunts who were actually younger than her. And the mom was only 34 years old. Totally conceivable that in 10 years the mom could have had another kid, and Kat would have been 27 and had a sister 27 years younger. Stuff like this happens in families that have kids when really young. 

"Family Practice" has to be the worst out-of-ER episode yet. It's all the things "Fathers and Sons" wasn't. It's tedious, and annoying Cynthia is there to ruin it even more. 

I'm well aware of that. My great-grandmother married when she had just turned sixteen, and had her first baby 51 weeks later. She had her thirteenth and last baby 27 years, nine months after the first, just to name one similar circumstance in my family. That particular ER storyline went well beyond that, though. 

[Heathen]

I just caught another bigoted comment from season two. Referring to a doctor with an Asian name, Ruby says, "Egg rolls they know, but medicine?" Do you all think that comment would fly now? 

[Bastet]

17 minutes ago, Heathen said:

The show started in 1994. Carol left at the end of season six, which would have been 2000? Not so uncommon by then for professional women to keep their own surnames, at least in my area. YMMV. 

Same here.  It was the '80s when women with careers - not jobs, but careers - started making retaining their name upon marriage common.  Not the majority, but far from rare.  And, yes, this was Los Angeles.  But I can't imagine in 200- (because we don't know when they married), living in/near Seattle or Portland or wherever in the PNW they were, by way of Chicago, it would be A Thing to retain her name.  To me, while it's still far from unusual for a woman to change her name upon marriage at that time, declining is also far from something that requires us to establish evidence for why she's not to "justify" the writers' decision.  She does or she doesn't change her name.  To find out she's still Carol Hathaway isn't cause for question.  Certainly no one is asking why Doug did not become Dr. Hathaway upon slipping that ring on his finger.

[doodlebug]

49 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm not a doctor, just a teacher, and I also know that many teachers nowadays choose to keep their maiden names because of licensing, payroll, insurance, pension, blah blah blah. More of a PITA to change your name than not. But ER was over 25 years ago. Keeping your maiden name wasn't that common back then, even for professionals. 

Anyway getting back to Season 4, did Alex Kingston kick the writers' puppies or what? She was such an appealing, self-confident surgeon in Season 4. A real breath of fresh air and a nice foil to Benton/Romano/Anspaugh who have the more "typical" surgeon personalities. But after Season 4 this nice confident lady became unrecognizable by the time she hooked up with Mark.

I thought Anna getting so mad at Carter for being reluctant to give blood to the serial rapist was sort of unbelievable. I know Anna is very rigid in her thinking but I don't think Anna would not understand Carter's decision. 

On a lighter note, Doug attempting to be "sympathetic" to a crying Cynthia will never be not funny.

I am a doctor, graduated medical school 36 years ago.  Weirdly enough, back then, when women in medicine were far less common, about half of my female classmates changed their name upon marrying, the other half didn't.  At least a couple of them married young, while still in undergrad and had changed their name before medical school so it maybe they weren't thinking about their future career. Of those who married later, after going out into practice, most kept their birth name if only because it is confusing for long-term patients.  In my current office, I work with 3 other female docs.  I never married, so I am original recipe.  One partner married after several years in practice; she kept her birth name.  A third married while still in medical school and changed her name.  The fourth is foreign born, married as a teen, and changed her name according to the custom in her home country.  We're all over the map, it seems..  Way back in 1994 when ER premiered, there were plenty of female physicians around who did not take their husband's name.  

Funnily, nowadays, I work with a lot of med students and residents at the teaching institution where I practice.  I do OB/GYN and that means around 80% of residents are female, a far cry from the olden days when I started out,  Interestingly, virtually every single resident uses her married name professionally, keeping their original surname is now much less common among female docs than it used to be.  Even those who get married after starting their residency, change their names pretty routinely.

I agree, TPTB completely messed up Elizabeth's personality.  I think it was supposed to make her eventual hookup with Mark seem more plausible, but feisty, sexy, assertive Elizabeth was a much better character, IMO.

[Growsonwalls]

Just watched "Exodus." Labor Day weekend before the kiddies come back and I have no life.

Best episode of Season 4 no doubt. It's cheesy but great seeing an old-fashioned ER episode that has nearly no soap opera plots. Just love everything about it, from the normally calm Benton screaming orders to Kerry being the patient and most of all, to all the heroics. Carter's heroics in thinking quickly on his feet and evacuating the ER, to Corday's heroics helping the trapped workers, to Doug's heroics getting out of that trapped elevator with the sick girl. 

This is when I wish ER had been on a cable network, because the biggest suspension of disbelief was that during these chaotic situations, there wouldn't have been F-bombs dropped all over the place. 

And it had to end with the squishy cuteness of Peter checking on Corday's bruised and cut up face. Adorableness.

But great episode. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Ceindreadh]

5 hours ago, Heathen said:

I just caught another bigoted comment from season two. Referring to a doctor with an Asian name, Ruby says, "Egg rolls they know, but medicine?" Do you all think that comment would fly now? 

Only if they wanted to show that Ruby was racist.  How was the comment taken by the other characters?

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

Only if they wanted to show that Ruby was racist.  How was the comment taken by the other characters?

Ruby was an old guy who was pushy and abrasive; not to mention oblivious as to how others perceived him.  For that particular character, that remark was par for the course.  The other characters had already been exposed to his annoying, obliviousness by that point; they knew who he was and were doing their best to ignore him and take care of his wife.

[txhorns79]

Quote

I guess at least she wasn't calling herself "Ofdoug," so...

LOL.  I'm sure that was just one of their games, where he played the stern commander and she was a misbehaving handmaid.

I'm watching Season 15, and I do like Banfield, while kind of hating the interns.  What intern wears three inch heels for a shift?  Even if you bought her garbage explanation about the heels being more comfortable, that kind of footwear seems almost dangerous for a job that requires you to constantly be running around the ER.  Having said that, on a more positive note, casting Angela Bassett was a real coup for the last season.  She's excellent. 

[Growsonwalls]

9 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

LOL.  I'm sure that was just one of their games, where he played the stern commander and she was a misbehaving handmaid.

Actually isn't it implied more than once that Doug and Carol are into that sort of thing? First in "Ambush" they're caught on mike talking about bringing "cuffs" over for their date later that night. Then they make a sex tape. Then Cynthia intercepts that note from Doug and later we see Cynthia and Mark playing some sex game with shots of tequila. And then Corday catches Carol writing a kinky letter to Doug. 

Also the mystery wasn't ever solved but wasn't Carol the final and most convincing suspect for that ER porn novel? 

[Dr.OO7]

14 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

On a lighter note, Doug attempting to be "sympathetic" to a crying Cynthia will never be not funny.

His desperation to get out of there was hilarious.

 

13 hours ago, Heathen said:

I'm watching the season two episode where Mrs. Saunders, the obese, "postmenopausal" woman has unexpected twins, and Benton delivers them. Her daughter looked mid-thirties, at least. How old was that woman supposed to be?! 

Oh, TV loves that trope. If a late 40's/early 50's woman thinks she's pregnant, she's starting menopause and is sad (why she never thinks it's the latter, especially given her age, is beyond me), and if she thinks she's starting menopause, she's pregnant and is shocked, but ultimately thrilled.

 

13 hours ago, Heathen said:

Family Practice" has to be the worst out-of-ER episode yet. It's all the things "Fathers and Sons" wasn't. It's tedious, and annoying Cynthia is there to ruin it even more. 

I hate that episode. But I never really disliked Cynthia. For all her flakiness and neediness, I thought she was a genuinely nice person who genuinely liked and cared about Mark. Even Mark admitted, after their breakup, "She was actually nice to me, unlike most of the women in my life."

The one scene I really did dislike was when Doug showed up at Mark's place after his outburst at work, clearly concerned about him, not to mention needing some TLC himself, and Mark just gives him the cold shoulder AGAIN. Not until Doug mentions that his father has died does it dawn on Mark what a jerk he's being.

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Also the mystery wasn't ever solved but wasn't Carol the final and most convincing suspect for that ER porn novel? 

No, Kerry wrote that.

Edited September 2, 2018 by Camille

[Growsonwalls]

6 minutes ago, Camille said:

The one scene I really did dislike was when Doug showed up at Mark's place after his outburst at work, clearly concerned about him, not to mention needing some TLC himself, and Mark just gives him the cold shoulder AGAIN. Not until Doug mentions that his father has died does it dawn on Market what a jerk he's being.

Eh, I thought that was a nice intro into "Fathers and Sons" where the Mark/Doug friendship which had been faltering ever since Mark had fallen into that sunken place since the attack was revived. I think that episode made Mark appreciate what Doug had been able to do with his life with the World's Shittiest Dad. And that episode is pretty serious and somber but it does have some really wonderful lines like Mark asking Doug "Does she (Carol) make you take a lie detector test every week?"

The Corday/Romano relationship continues to ick me out. Corday is strong and confident and sassy (her line "Not everyone can be blessed with your devastating good looks" was awesome) but the fact that he's clearly holding her job over her head because he wants her to put out and he's jealous of Benton is so #metoo before the #metoo era. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

My guess is that Carol kept Hathaway professionally, and Ross for everything else.     

On the loft surprise wedding, I don't know if it still happens this way or not, but at least one state I know of gave out marriage licenses if only one person applied for it in person, as long as they had the information the form needed.   I guess the other fiance would sign at the time of the wedding, or something.    A friend found out an ex who wouldn't go away was still focused on her, when she told him to stop bothering her, he pulled out a marriage license with their names on it, and that really freaked her out for a good reason.    I hope they changed that since.     

I looked online, and now both parties have to apply in person for a marriage license in Illinois, and have 60 days to get married.     If it was the same when the 'surprise' wedding happened, then it was a marriage only for the ceremony.   However, they could apply after and then the officiant would either perform a quick ceremony and sign the paperwork and file it, or they could just have a quick courthouse ceremony when they picked up the license.    However, since reality and this show have zero correlation, then I guess the viewers aren't supposed to question anything.      

Edited September 2, 2018 by CrazyInAlabama

[Growsonwalls]

I'm watching the episode where Anna treats the pregnant woman with Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG). I'm surprised the storyline was so overwrought with the husband even considering aborting the child and calling Anna "Catholic" because Anna tells the mom to soldier on with the pregnancy. Isn't HG a manageable affliction? I remember reading that Kate (Duchess of Cambridge) had HG for all three of her pregnancies and she popped out 3 kids in 5 years and seems to be fine so ... 

I also thought that as much as I loved the Scott/Jeanie storyline I wished there were more scenes with Anspaugh and his son. It just doesn't seem believable that his son is dying of cancer and Anspaugh's farmed out most of the care of his son to Jeanie and also to Doug Ross. I know Anspaugh is a gruff surgeon but his total stoicism about his son is where IMO the writers dropped the ball. 

Edited September 2, 2018 by Growsonwalls

[Dr.OO7]

2 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

A friend found out an ex who wouldn't go away was still focused on her, when she told him to stop bothering her, he pulled out a marriage license with their names on it, and that really freaked her out for a good reason.   

Heh. After a full year of stalking and harassing me because he refused to accept that I had broken up with him, my high school ex spent 2.5 hours trying to browbeat me into marrying him and that sounds exactly like something he would have done.

" We're both still in college, don't have any money, have nowhere to live, and you've been telling me for an entire year to LYTFA. Sounds like the perfect foundation for a good marriage!"

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

It just doesn't seem believable that his son is dying of cancer and Anspaugh's farmed out most of the care of his son to Jeanie and also to Doug Ross.

This show is notorious for having the ER staff do things that they wouldn't be doing. I can see Scott being brought to the ER in case of an emergency (and kudos to whoever criticized Kerry for her bratty reaction to Anspaugh choosing Mark to care for him), but I find it hard to believe that Scott didn't have a private pediatric oncologist to oversee his care.

 

3 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm surprised the storyline was so overwrought with the husband even considering aborting the child and calling Anna "Catholic" because Anna tells the mom to soldier on with the pregnancy. Isn't HG a manageable affliction? I remember reading that Kate (Duchess of Cambridge) had HG for all three of her pregnancies and she popped out 3 kids in 5 years and seems to be fine so ... 

I've seen a few bad cases, but never so bad that terminating the pregnancy was recommended. I've also never seen it more than once in the same woman. I was very surprised when Duchess Kate had for all of her pregnancies. 

[Growsonwalls]

16 minutes ago, Camille said:

This show is notorious for having the ER staff do things that they wouldn't be doing. I can see Scott being brought to the ER in case of an emergency (and kudos to whoever criticized Kerry for her bratty reaction to Anspaugh choosing Mark to care for him), but I find it hard to believe that Scott didn't have a private pediatric oncologist to oversee his care.

I also don't think it's realistic that Jeanie was essentially hired as a health aide for Scott. Don't believe that the chief surgeon of a hospital wouldn't have had a private health aide already for Scott if Anspaugh couldn't be home as often as he wanted as Scott had been sick many times before. Nevertheless the Jeanie/Scott storyline is very lovely so I don't mind it.

I was the one who said that the biggest "Kerry sucks" moment had to have been her bratty reaction to Anspaugh choosing Mark to care for Scott. I do like the continuity though that later when Scott is brought in again for a biopsy Anspaugh specifically requests that Doug (someone he doesn't like either personally or professionally) to care for Scott. He just doesn't want Kerry near Scott. Heh.

Color me confused about the "Gamma cuts off Carter because Carter has been detoxing Chase" storyline. Gamma was well aware of Chase's drug abuse problems -- he faked wanting to be hospital Santa so he could get his fix, and was using in the car when Gamma and Carter found him. And I would have thought that Carter was close enough to Gamma to talk about him trying to detox Chase. I feel for Carter in that storyline though. Dealing with heroin addicts is the absolute worst. 

[Heathen]

5 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

I also don't think it's realistic that Jeanie was essentially hired as a health aide for Scott. Don't believe that the chief surgeon of a hospital wouldn't have had a private health aide already for Scott if Anspaugh couldn't be home as often as he wanted as Scott had been sick many times before. Nevertheless the Jeanie/Scott storyline is very lovely so I don't mind it.

I was the one who said that the biggest "Kerry sucks" moment had to have been her bratty reaction to Anspaugh choosing Mark to care for Scott. I do like the continuity though that later when Scott is brought in again for a biopsy Anspaugh specifically requests that Doug (someone he doesn't like either personally or professionally) to care for Scott. He just doesn't want Kerry near Scott. Heh.

Color me confused about the "Gamma cuts off Carter because Carter has been detoxing Chase" storyline. Gamma was well aware of Chase's drug abuse problems -- he faked wanting to be hospital Santa so he could get his fix, and was using in the car when Gamma and Carter found him. And I would have thought that Carter was close enough to Gamma to talk about him trying to detox Chase. I feel for Carter in that storyline though. Dealing with heroin addicts is the absolute worst. 

Gamma didn't see Chase shooting up in the car at Santa time. Carter came to the car alone, opened the door, and saw Chase injecting heroin into his wrist. They had a conversation, and then Gamma came to the car. I don't think Carter was as tight with Gamma as he became after his grandfather died -- Grandpa Carter certainly didn't seem happy with him. 

I think Anspaugh and Romano both knew Weaver would throw them under the bus in a minute. Remember how Romano looked at her during the meeting with the hospital lawyer and Chen after Chen and Malucci killed the Marfan's patient? Romano knew Weaver was lying about being paged. 

[izabella]

I just watched the Season 6 episode where Carol has the babies and we are introduced to Abby for the first time, as her OB nurse.  I had completely forgotten about that, if I even noticed at the time.  But, WOW, it took me a minute to recognize her because she was so CHEERFUL and lighthearted.  She smiled the entire time she was on screen, and in all her interactions with the cast!  The Abby I remember was dour and sour and plagued with problems.  I had forgotten she wasn't always a miserable character.

[txhorns79]

Quote

The Abby I remember was dour and sour and plagued with problems.  I had forgotten she wasn't always a miserable character.

I feel like becoming a regular requires every character to take some kind of blood oath agreeing to be overwhelmed with personal problems.  Just with Abby, she had a bipolar mother, bipolar brother, alcoholism, hysterectomy, an affair, being beaten by her abusive neighbor, having to date Carter and money problems.  I will also say it was a little annoying to have them make a big deal of Abby wanting a job as an attending at County in Season 14, only for her to immediately abandon the job in Season 15. 

[doodlebug]

11 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

Actually isn't it implied more than once that Doug and Carol are into that sort of thing? First in "Ambush" they're caught on mike talking about bringing "cuffs" over for their date later that night. Then they make a sex tape. Then Cynthia intercepts that note from Doug and later we see Cynthia and Mark playing some sex game with shots of tequila. And then Corday catches Carol writing a kinky letter to Doug. 

Also the mystery wasn't ever solved but wasn't Carol the final and most convincing suspect for that ER porn novel? 

Laura Innes stated in several interviews that the writers said that Kerry had authored it although we never heard it on the show.

 

5 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm watching the episode where Anna treats the pregnant woman with Hyperemesis Gravidarum (HG). I'm surprised the storyline was so overwrought with the husband even considering aborting the child and calling Anna "Catholic" because Anna tells the mom to soldier on with the pregnancy. Isn't HG a manageable affliction? I remember reading that Kate (Duchess of Cambridge) had HG for all three of her pregnancies and she popped out 3 kids in 5 years and seems to be fine so … 

 

That whole storyline was bullsh** start to finish.  First, Anna tells the lady that taking medication for nausea and vomiting in pregnancy causes birth defects which is complete and utter nonsense.  And yes, there are many, many different options for managing hyperemesis that Anna never even mentioned to the woman.  Also, the general implication that hyperemesis can be fatal or cause permanent and lasting damage is also completely wrong.  If the show wanted to make a big deal out of Anna's Catholicism, there were better ways to do it.

Hyperemesis tends to be worst with the first baby, but women who get severe hyperemesis to the point of needing IV fluids regularly or medication on a pump, are at risk for it to recur with subsequent pregnancies.

Same thing with the episode where the abortion clinic was bombed and one of the patients is brought to the ER in shock from a hemorrhage because she was in the midst of a termination which wasn't completed due to the bombing.  Aside from the unrealistic setup, we then have Anna standing there, apparently preferring to watch the woman bleed to death than complete the procedure.  First, if she was bleeding that much, the pregnancy is no longer viable anyway. second, even the Catholic Church says that, if the pregnancy is endangering the mother's life, it can be terminated.  The false narrative that one must choose the baby over the mother even when the mother is dying from the pregnancy's existence is not Catholic, its ridiculous.  Soap operas are famous for this stuff: a woman gets pregnant and chooses her baby's life over her own.  How does that work?  If she dies, how does the pregnancy survive?  Dumb, dumb, dumb.

[Growsonwalls]

Well "Gut Reaction" was such a perfect mix of light and heavy in one ER episode. I loved the humor of Carter doing Anna's bone marrow transplant, Anna friendzoning Carter, the on-the-fly "banquet" that ended up being great, and the flirtation of Peter and Corday. That was juxtaposed with Scott's agonizing choice to stop chemo, the botched surgery and finger-pointing between Benton and Morgenstern, and the conflict between Gamma and Carter. 

I loved the banquet for the silliest reason: it was nice to see all the staff out of their iconic scrubs and in evening clothes. Mark and Jerry in particular cleaned up nice. I also loved how that speech was so Mark: awkward but heartfelt. And the whole banquet singing "That's Amore!" to Mark was one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen on ER. 

You know this is neither here nor there but in the wake of the infamous Alicia/Kalinda spliced together scene in The Good Wife I started noticing one of the great things about ER was the long takes with both actors clearly on camera together. There's very little of the use of body doubles in dialogue scenes, and I think that gave classic ER its authenticity. It felt like the actors were really talking to each other, rather than a camera and stand-in.