All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Bastet]

1 minute ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm pretty sure he sexually harassed her, and ended his sponsorship of her because he found out she was dating Peter.

Ugh.  I don't remember that, but I'm sadly not surprised it happened.

[Notabug]

41 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Ugh.  I don't remember that, but I'm sadly not surprised it happened.

Yeah, Romano asked Liz to go to dinner with him and she told him she had a rule and didn't date colleagues.  Then, Romano accidentally runs into Elizabeth and Peter smooching in the locker room.  Next thing you know, Lizzie's fellowship is canceled and she's scrambling to find a way to stay in the US.  Romano had initially sponsored her for the fellowship after seeing her work with a robotic tool in the OR in England that he wanted to learn to use in the US.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I was rewatching The Greatest of Gifts tonight from S7 (the one where Chen has her baby and gives him up for adoption) and I forgot how heartbreaking the episode is. This is the first time I’ve seen it where I cried a little when the adoptive mom is holding the baby and singing to him. I feel bad both for Chen and the adoptive parents when they worried she would change her mind and the mom said she could not lose another baby. 

For some reason I thought Carter’s slip happened earlier in the episode than it did and that he told Kerry before the end too. I paused my Hulu when it happened and was surprised there was less than 10-15 minutes left at that point.

Between all that plus Mark and Elizabeth being in New York, it was a loaded emotional episode. It never hit for me that way until now. 

[RedbirdNelly]

18 hours ago, Bastet said:

Ugh.  I don't remember that, but I'm sadly not surprised it happened.

I remember it as well.

That being said, my fav part on the wedding episode was when Romano showed up and he says to somebody "what? you didn't think I'd get an invitation?"

Which goes to my main Romano point: it was a great character. He was a jerk, but not entirely a jerk--and let's face it those people exist. But they ruined the character with the helicopters and making him go 1000% jerk. I wish they had not done it. We always got a kick out of his sarcastic lines

[Cloud9Shopper]

I agree. You want to hate Romano but he’s really well written and Paul McCrane plays him incredibly well you can’t help but be entertained. Loved in S9 and 10 when he was taking digs at Luka and the medical students he was overseeing. And when Kerry says in S7, “Did you even take the Hippocratic oath?” and Romano replies “I had my fingers crossed.” 

[Hiyo]

In one of the other threads there was some talk about the wonky location of the hospital. Just for reference, here is a listing of the various locations used in Chicago, The Warner Bros. Studio, and LA for County:

https://www.itsfilmedthere.com/2014/10/er-many-locations-used-for-county.html

And here is the main website which has many other shooting locations as well:

https://www.itsfilmedthere.com/2013/01/er.html

[debraran]

This show spoiled so many medical shows for me. I am trying to watch The Resident on Hulu, got through season one but only bonded with a character, a patient who died. The rest haven't been fleshed out enough yet. Some I like but it's not "Mark Green" or "Carol and Doug". The first 6 years or so, even dated make so many of the shows, Chicago Med, Good Doctor etc pale in many ways. The Resident though is set in ER but even with so many plots similar, I keep saying to my daughter, "ER did this SO much better". Well it is what it is.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I do like The Resident, although I’m finding it a bit boring in S5 since they killed off a major character. Agreed on Chicago Med, though. It was a huge letdown for a Dick Wolf show and I didn’t even get through S1. I only watched the pilot of The Good Doctor and it wasn’t for me, so no comment there. 

There’s New Amsterdam too but that was a huge letdown from S3 onwards. It felt like the writers who ruined the late years of ER had gotten new jobs and just went to town on destroying another show. 😂

[debraran]

18 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I do like The Resident, although I’m finding it a bit boring in S5 since they killed off a major character. Agreed on Chicago Med, though. It was a huge letdown for a Dick Wolf show and I didn’t even get through S1. I only watched the pilot of The Good Doctor and it wasn’t for me, so no comment there. 

There’s New Amsterdam too but that was a huge letdown from S3 onwards. It felt like the writers who ruined the late years of ER had gotten new jobs and just went to town on destroying another show. 😂

I so agree. I wondered what happened to ER later, so "soapy" and scripts changed, stars stayed mum but did allude to the changes in interviews somewhat. Chicago Med could have had Dr Charles be a great character with interesting cases but they are always short and sweet and no continuation really. The rest were look at me the handsome doc bedding this one or that one and the overwrought angst of their situations. I don't want General Hospital. New Amsterdam I watched also until S 3 and then never wanted to see again when it came back. 

House was like that too, but he had some interesting episodes. Their was one I saw recently "One day, One Room" where a rape patient with STD and is pregnant wants to talk to him, only him, and over the course of the day, you see a difficult subject tackled without laughs and his humanity and "other side" more. That kind of quality is lacking today.

[Cloud9Shopper]

From what I’ve heard, ER wanted to compete with Grey’s Anatomy, which started in 2005 when ER was in S11. So that’s probably at least part why it got so dramatic and started using licensed music more often in episodes. I’m not sure what it says about TV that Grey’s has lasted longer than ER (it’s going to S19) but there you have it. I don’t watch it so I wouldn’t know that appeal.

I also think the casting changes really hurt the show. Once Carter left, I felt like I wasn’t connected to the characters anymore. I didn’t care about them in the way I did when Mark, Carol, Carter and so forth were around. That’s also when the writing got seemingly worse and the plots more unbelievable. I expect TV to be somewhat unrealistic but…it was just bad IMO. The new characters didn’t even seem to like each other and could barely tolerate working together; seemed like they were always whining about something or someone, and the fun the old cast had outside of work was also pretty much removed from the show. There was no lightheartedness anymore anywhere; just everyone being moody and hating their life. 

I think now they should’ve just canceled it at either Mark’s death or Carter’s departure. I have a feeling no one would miss seasons 12-14 if they had never aired. It’s like they didn’t want to accept that nothing lasts forever. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Cloud9Shopper

[debraran]

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

From what I’ve heard, ER wanted to compete with Grey’s Anatomy, which started in 2005 when ER was in S11. So that’s probably at least part why it got so dramatic and started using licensed music more often in episodes. I’m not sure what it says about TV that Grey’s has lasted longer than ER (it’s going to S19) but there you have it. I don’t watch it so I wouldn’t know that appeal.

I also think the casting changes really hurt the show. Once Carter left, I felt like I wasn’t connected to the characters anymore. I didn’t care about them in the way I did when Mark, Carol, Carter and so forth were around. That’s also when the writing got seemingly worse and the plots more unbelievable. I expect TV to be somewhat unrealistic but…it was just bad IMO. The new characters didn’t even seem to like each other and could barely tolerate working together; seemed like they were always whining about something or someone, and the fun the old cast had outside of work was also pretty much removed from the show. There was no lightheartedness anymore anywhere; just everyone being moody and hating their life. 

I think now they should’ve just canceled it at either Mark’s death or Carter’s departure. I have a feeling no one would miss seasons 12-14 if they had never aired. It’s like they didn’t want to accept that nothing lasts forever. 

So true, the only thing I looked up re watching the show on HULU after Mark died,  was the Clooney/kidney shows with Carol and Benton  seeing Carter in hospital and when Jeanne visited. The horrible Romano mess and "lets write it in" style of writing was sad and I think it's better to go out high than low. MASH was able to do it because writing was good throughout and they honestly liked each other in and off the show. Still friends with most of cast. The first group on ER are the same. The youtube show they did with many of them was pretty good. I enjoyed it a lot.

I can't imagine The Resident doing something like the stabbing of Carter and Lucy or showing the emotion Romano and Elizabeth had in the OR. I will watch season 2 and see what it brings.

Edited September 17, 2022 by debraran

[WendyCR72]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:40 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

I’m not sure what it says about TV that Grey’s has lasted longer than ER (it’s going to S19) but there you have it. I don’t watch it so I wouldn’t know that appeal.

I don't watch Grey's Anatomy, either. (Did in S1, only to be put off by the whining...) But I'm not sure it is accurate to compare it to ER and being more successful because, by and large, the TV landscape is so different now due to streaming, etc.

Grey's Anatomy may be a "hit" for ABC even now, but the actual current ratings are something, back in the heyday of ER, would get it axed! Lower margins are acceptable now, where they wouldn't have been even a decade ago.

Hell, NBC is looking to axe the 10:00 p.m. hour, per reports.

So it's all relative.

[Cloud9Shopper]

45 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Hell, NBC is looking to axe the 10:00 p.m. hour, per reports.

So it's all relative.

As much as I used to enjoy SVU, its heyday has long gone anyway so I wouldn’t mind it coming to an end. It probably should have died six or seven years ago. Maybe NBC just doesn’t know when to give up LOL. 

I’m taking a break from watching ER until I finish some other shows, and even when I do come back to it, I’m just going to S15 once Carter leaves. 

[ch1]

7 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

From what I’ve heard, ER wanted to compete with Grey’s Anatomy, which started in 2005 when ER was in S11. So that’s probably at least part why it got so dramatic and started using licensed music more often in episodes. I’m not sure what it says about TV that Grey’s has lasted longer than ER (it’s going to S19) but there you have it. I don’t watch it so I wouldn’t know that appeal.

I also think the casting changes really hurt the show. Once Carter left, I felt like I wasn’t connected to the characters anymore. I didn’t care about them in the way I did when Mark, Carol, Carter and so forth were around. That’s also when the writing got seemingly worse and the plots more unbelievable. I expect TV to be somewhat unrealistic but…it was just bad IMO. The new characters didn’t even seem to like each other and could barely tolerate working together; seemed like they were always whining about something or someone, and the fun the old cast had outside of work was also pretty much removed from the show. There was no lightheartedness anymore anywhere; just everyone being moody and hating their life. 

I think now they should’ve just canceled it at either Mark’s death or Carter’s departure. I have a feeling no one would miss seasons 12-14 if they had never aired. It’s like they didn’t want to accept that nothing lasts forever. 

I watched a few s14 episodes on POP that I never saw before and I was struck with how unpleasant characters could be to each other.  Like Abby talked to the others like she was just annoyed by them.  Sam did the same thing.  Characters have always been short with each other but the characters in season 14 just seem so unlikeable.  The most likable was Morris of all people.  

[Cloud9Shopper]

12 minutes ago, ch1 said:

I watched a few s14 episodes on POP that I never saw before and I was struck with how unpleasant characters could be to each other.  Like Abby talked to the others like she was just annoyed by them.  Sam did the same thing.  Characters have always been short with each other but the characters in season 14 just seem so unlikeable.  The most likable was Morris of all people.  

S14 was just miserable as a whole. Not sure how far you got into it but Abby’s spiral ended up being wayyyy too much for me considering we’d been subjected to her miserable life and drama since S7 at that point. (Especially when she turned her nose up at Sam and gave her a snotty look for asking her if she drank at work.) The only redeeming part of it was Jeanie returning and even then the writers had her and Reggie separated to keep adding to the misery. 

[debraran]

10 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

S14 was just miserable as a whole. Not sure how far you got into it but Abby’s spiral ended up being wayyyy too much for me considering we’d been subjected to her miserable life and drama since S7 at that point. (Especially when she turned her nose up at Sam and gave her a snotty look for asking her if she drank at work.) The only redeeming part of it was Jeanie returning and even then the writers had her and Reggie separated to keep adding to the misery. 

I personally never was an Abby fan. Maybe her first few shows. The angst, the way she acted with Luka, Carter, anyone really. The constant move of hers of running her hand through her hair, the "I'm it" attitude. I just couldn't like her. Sam either but Abby was always the focus. They went from "family" in beginning to a bad roommate type feeling with most.

Edited September 18, 2022 by debraran

[Cloud9Shopper]

36 minutes ago, debraran said:

I personally never was an Abby fan. Maybe her first few shows. The angst, the way she acted with Luka, Carter, anyone really. The constant move of hers of running her hand through her hair, the "I'm it" attitude. I just couldn't like her. Sam either but Abby was always the focus. They went from "family" in beginning to a bad roommate type feeling with most.

I never got why Abby is so popular and untouchable for criticism among most segments of the fanbase. So many older teenagers and younger women in other spaces I’m in absolutely adore her and get upset if anyone says anything negative, like suggesting she should have had more consequences when she relapsed or maybe she’s not that great of a mom to Joe. She seems to mean so much to these women, but ER has so many strong woman characters even among the recurring group that I don’t understand why Abby is the icon they all look up to and identify with. And sadly, a lot of Abby fans are just as mean and nasty as she is. 

[RedbirdNelly]

I know that ER got worse and it would have made more sense to cancel earlier. But I'm glad they did not for my own selfish reasons. Even though it was not as good, I still enjoyed watching it each Thursday. So I'm glad I got those years--plus the close out season was well done.

I also think ER at its worst still holds up with basically any other medical show. None of them have been close to ER status. I started watching Chicago Med because I wanted a new ER. It was terrible. I've stuck with it and last season was actually better but still no ER.

I also watch Grey's but I see it as a different style of fluff show. I enjoy watching it and rolling my eyes at stuff. And I'm glad it is still on despite going on too long--because it's fun to have fluff to watch on a Thursday night!

[Hiyo]

Quote

So many older teenagers and younger women

Her fanbase isn't limited to those generalized demographics.

Quote

a lot of Abby fans are just as mean and nasty as she is. 

I don't see that at all. Like any fanbase, it's probably a small variety.

[Cloud9Shopper]

Watched NICU from S10 tonight (making a new online friend and we decided to go through random episodes together) and…are NICU staff really that cold in real life? I would hope not, although I’m sure the job hardens you to a point. Dr. Raab is understandably strict and to the point to me.

Abby is tolerable for me this episode but I could understand Sandy’s concerns about Abby doing a spinal tap after working for 30 hours and only being a student. I kind of wish Kerry hadn’t just blown that off and tried to soften things with Sandy, but then again we all know Abby is the best med student in the history of the NICU so. 

I think this episode showed why Neela isn’t that good of a doctor for patient care. She’s way too meek and internalizes things too much. While I’m sure it’s hard to see very sick and dying babies every day, especially given the situations on this show like the couple who fled back to China without their baby girl or the one with no hope for survival from a brain condition, she really can’t cope with patients in critical condition. Even as a surgeon she had a meltdown when a patient died. She just doesn’t have enough confidence and it never gets better. 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:40 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

From what I’ve heard, ER wanted to compete with Grey’s Anatomy, which started in 2005 when ER was in S11. So that’s probably at least part why it got so dramatic and started using licensed music more often in episodes. I’m not sure what it says about TV that Grey’s has lasted longer than ER (it’s going to S19) but there you have it. I don’t watch it so I wouldn’t know that appeal.

I can see that. John Stamos isn't that great an actor but I feel like he would attract the same type of viewers that Patrick Dempsey would.

[Notabug]

14 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Watched NICU from S10 tonight (making a new online friend and we decided to go through random episodes together) and…are NICU staff really that cold in real life? I would hope not, although I’m sure the job hardens you to a point. Dr. Raab is understandably strict and to the point to me.

Abby is tolerable for me this episode but I could understand Sandy’s concerns about Abby doing a spinal tap after working for 30 hours and only being a student. I kind of wish Kerry hadn’t just blown that off and tried to soften things with Sandy, but then again we all know Abby is the best med student in the history of the NICU so. 

I think this episode showed why Neela isn’t that good of a doctor for patient care. She’s way too meek and internalizes things too much. While I’m sure it’s hard to see very sick and dying babies every day, especially given the situations on this show like the couple who fled back to China without their baby girl or the one with no hope for survival from a brain condition, she really can’t cope with patients in critical condition. Even as a surgeon she had a meltdown when a patient died. She just doesn’t have enough confidence and it never gets better. 

No, NICU staff love their babies and the moms and dads and tend to be warm and accommodating.  At this point in the show's history, Abby was being deified and part of that was showing that she was the only one who cared about patients and families; who went out of her way to be kind to them.  Not so.  In real life, med students on NICU rotations are not allowed to touch the babies, let alone provide any treatment.  They certainly don't decide on testing, or procedures or treatments.  Abby and Neela would've been standing there listening on rounds.  No one thinks its a good idea to have people who haven't even completed their training handling the smallest, sickest patients.  Heck, even interns barely get to touch the babies.  

As for Kerry requesting Abby to do the spinal tap on her son:  it is to laugh.  Completely and utterly ridiculous and no way the chief of the ER wants a med student anywhere within 10 feet of her sick newborn, let alone ask her to perform an invasive, painful procedure on him.  Once again, this was the era of Teflon Abby, the world's greatest everything.

[ch1]

2 hours ago, Notabug said:

No, NICU staff love their babies and the moms and dads and tend to be warm and accommodating.  At this point in the show's history, Abby was being deified and part of that was showing that she was the only one who cared about patients and families; who went out of her way to be kind to them.  Not so.  In real life, med students on NICU rotations are not allowed to touch the babies, let alone provide any treatment.  They certainly don't decide on testing, or procedures or treatments.  Abby and Neela would've been standing there listening on rounds.  No one thinks its a good idea to have people who haven't even completed their training handling the smallest, sickest patients.  Heck, even interns barely get to touch the babies.  

As for Kerry requesting Abby to do the spinal tap on her son:  it is to laugh.  Completely and utterly ridiculous and no way the chief of the ER wants a med student anywhere within 10 feet of her sick newborn, let alone ask her to perform an invasive, painful procedure on him.  Once again, this was the era of Teflon Abby, the world's greatest everything.

And yet in season 15 (after Abby left), when Carter was pretty much dying Morris told the resident from nephrology to turn her ass around and get the attending.  Hmm.

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, ch1 said:

And yet in season 15 (after Abby left), when Carter was pretty much dying Morris told the resident from nephrology to turn her ass around and get the attending.  Hmm.

I got the impression that Morris was being protective because it was Carter. And IIRC the person who originally came down from nephrology was a student, not a resident. 

By that point, there were only 5-6 episodes left in the series and I felt like ER returned to its roots in later S15 so maybe they decided to try and be more realistic again to go out on a high note. I can’t recall Lucy or Carter having as much authority as a student as Abby did, though. 

[Notabug]

19 hours ago, ch1 said:

And yet in season 15 (after Abby left), when Carter was pretty much dying Morris told the resident from nephrology to turn her ass around and get the attending.  Hmm.

Which is exactly what would usually happen in ER's and elsewhere to this day.  The attending would call a renal attending and ask him/her to take care of the VIP patient.  Kerry would've expected the NICU director to do her baby's spinal tap, and, in real life, the doctor wouldn't even have to be asked, she'd step forward and do it.  No way an intern or resident touches the ER Chief's kid; let alone a med student.  Maybe if there had been someone doing a fellowship in NICU who had more recent experience, the director would've referred to them and told Kerry why; but no way does Kerry request a med student for that procedure, ever, ever ever.

From all we could discern, it was Abby's first time tapping a newborn.  Would any parent want a med student learning on their sick child?  Of course not.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Notabug

[Hiyo]

Quote

when Carter was pretty much dying Morris told the resident from nephrology to turn her ass around and get the attending

The ER staff always did seem to be a bit more extra and pulling for resources when it was one of their own.

[littlebennysmom]

Watching the episode where Elizabeth cooks Thanksgiving dinner for Mark's father and daughter -- Rachel is insufferable.  First thing she says walking into Elizabeth's house is, "you're not supposed to wear that, it's a decoration."  Um, why wouldn't Mark correct her and say, "you don't walk into other peoples houses and tell them what they can and can't do."  Or even Mark's dad could have said something.

[CrazyInAlabama]

1 hour ago, littlebennysmom said:

Watching the episode where Elizabeth cooks Thanksgiving dinner for Mark's father and daughter -- Rachel is insufferable.  First thing she says walking into Elizabeth's house is, "you're not supposed to wear that, it's a decoration."  Um, why wouldn't Mark correct her and say, "you don't walk into other peoples houses and tell them what they can and can't do."  Or even Mark's dad could have said something.

Mark never tried to do anything to control Rachel.   He was afraid she would get steamed at him, go back to her mother, and cut him off.     

Look at his behavior when Rachel left the exstacy (spelling?) down where the baby could get to it.   He actually had the gall to ask Elizabeth if Rachel could come in the room to visit the baby, and they didn't even know if Ella would live, or have permanent damage.    He even refused to make a police report about Rachel and the drugs, which is not optional.   He should have had his license yanked for that.   Elizabeth should have reported it to the police too. 

[littlebennysmom]

14 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

Mark never tried to do anything to control Rachel.   He was afraid she would get steamed at him, go back to her mother, and cut him off.     

Look at his behavior when Rachel left the exstacy (spelling?) down where the baby could get to it.   He actually had the gall to ask Elizabeth if Rachel could come in the room to visit the baby, and they didn't even know if Ella would live, or have permanent damage.    He even refused to make a police report about Rachel and the drugs, which is not optional.   He should have had his license yanked for that.   Elizabeth should have reported it to the police too. 

I never understood the whole "full circle" moment we were supposed to embrace at the series ending -- she was a tiresome twit in every way, why would anyone be happy she's in health care?  

[CrazyInAlabama]

I never understood how someone who did nothing academic would get into a good medical school the way Rachel supposedly did.    I knew people who had wonderful GPAs, extra curriculars, working as volunteers, etc. and still couldn't get into medical school.  So how did someone like Rachel, who was a total screw up supposedly get into Northwestern or whatever medical school the ER people worked with?    

[Kel Varnsen]

4 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I never understood how someone who did nothing academic would get into a good medical school the way Rachel supposedly did.    I knew people who had wonderful GPAs, extra curriculars, working as volunteers, etc. and still couldn't get into medical school.  So how did someone like Rachel, who was a total screw up supposedly get into Northwestern or whatever medical school the ER people worked with?    

It was like 7 years between Mark's death and the series finale. That's tons of time for someone, especially a teenager to turn their life around.  Especially one who was the child of a doctor and a lawyer who would have all the advantages she could possibly want (not to mention the connections in the Chicago area medical community). Plus the early death of a parent could easily be the event to cause her to change her life

[Cloud9Shopper]

Did we ever know that Rachel wasn’t doing well in school? I remember her getting into fights and hanging out with some shady kids but not specifically failing anything or not being involved with clubs. We don’t really know what she did in the seven years between when Mark died and the series finale except for that she seemed to be getting along with Elizabeth. I kind of wish we had seen at least some of her interview though. 

I work in a similarly competitive field (law) and we’re just finishing interviewing law students for summer associate jobs. Grades and work experience/activities are important but we also look at overall maturity and the way they present themselves. Rachel may have very well grown up by then. 

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, littlebennysmom said:

Watching the episode where Elizabeth cooks Thanksgiving dinner for Mark's father and daughter -- Rachel is insufferable. 

She always is, but that episode is worth it when she snots off that "the pilgrims came here to escape persecution from the British" and Elizabeth responds, "Yes, so they could go about persecuting the Indians."

And for the shenanigans with Mark's dad not knowing what kind of pads to get Rachel so buying a box of every kind.  Of course, Mark is a jackass, getting pissed at Elizabeth, but once again she has the perfect response when he complains she "let him" go out in this kind of weather (he wound up slipping and falling on the ice):  "You'd prefer I left him with your menstruating daughter?"
 

Edited October 10, 2022 by Bastet

[Cloud9Shopper]

4 minutes ago, Bastet said:

And for the shenanigans with Mark's dad not knowing what kind of pads to get Rachel so buying a box of every kind.  Of course, Mark is a jackass, getting pissed at Elizabeth, but once again she has the perfect response when he complains she "let him" go out in this kind of weather (he wound up slipping and falling on the ice):  "You'd prefer I left him with your menstruating daughter?"
 

“They couldn’t have just had regular!”

Also, nice throwback from the writers when Rachel asks if Elizabeth is prettier than Cynthia was. This show was interesting in the continuity it chose. Remember the attorney who got Mark’s case thrown out in S4 coming back in S11? 

[Hiyo]

As annoying as Rachel was, she was nowhere near as bad as Chloe.

[Danny Franks]

20 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

Mark never tried to do anything to control Rachel.   He was afraid she would get steamed at him, go back to her mother, and cut him off.     

Look at his behavior when Rachel left the exstacy (spelling?) down where the baby could get to it.   He actually had the gall to ask Elizabeth if Rachel could come in the room to visit the baby, and they didn't even know if Ella would live, or have permanent damage.    He even refused to make a police report about Rachel and the drugs, which is not optional.   He should have had his license yanked for that.   Elizabeth should have reported it to the police too. 

Mark always avoided confrontation whenever he could. Part of it was that he liked to be liked and part of it was that he just seemed scared of taking a real stand on anything that didn't revolve around patient care.

That's why Kerry was able to outflank him and take over the department, it's why things with Jen dragged on for so long, and it's why he ended up looking like a milquetoast twit, trapped between a harridan of a wife and a brat of a daughter - his complete ineffectiveness brought out the worst in both Elizabeth and Rachel.

20 hours ago, littlebennysmom said:

I never understood the whole "full circle" moment we were supposed to embrace at the series ending -- she was a tiresome twit in every way, why would anyone be happy she's in health care?  

I think it was a mix of two things - one, they really wanted a neat, 'tying the bow' ending that showed how life in the ER goes on. And two, they realised that they'd made a bit of a mess of Mark's last days with Rachel. Did she learn anything? Was she going to be a better person? Who knows, she was just a brat to Mark's last day.

I think a better conclusion would have been Carter coming back as ER Chief (without the kidney woobies) to show that our characters will continue to fight the noble fight, then have a med student character that he connects to symbolise the future of the department.

6 hours ago, Hiyo said:

As annoying as Rachel was, she was nowhere near as bad as Chloe.

Indeed. I just rewatched season one and I absolutely hate Chloe. She's so useless and irritating. She really behaves like a child all the time, and just displays no adult qualities whatsoever.

I think one of the least believable things in the entire show's run is her getting her act together and getting custody of Suzy back. It's just absurd to think that the Chloe who dumps her kid, whines that she's "dying inside" because she's being asked to be a part-time mother (Susan was already doing a lot of heavy lifting) and get a fucking job, and runs off with some random woman to "make a fortune at the flea markets" could turn herself around that quickly, and that completely.

And she apparently does it because of a good man she meets. Sure. Whatever. I guess it was just a way of getting rid of Suzy and facilitating Sherry Stringfield's eventual exit, but it sucked as a storyline.

[Kel Varnsen]

Thinking more about Rachel, and I  am not entirely sure how US college admissions work other than what is depicted on TV, but it seems like a girl who struggled with stuff in high school after her parents divorce (bad friends, skipping school, drugs (maybe)) and then turned things around after her dad died would be a pretty compelling story to tell admissions people (like in an essay or interview or recommendation letter or something). 

[Hiyo]

“I think a better conclusion would have been Carter coming back as ER Chief (without the kidney woobies) to show that our characters will continue to fight the noble fight, then have a med student character that he connects to symbolise the future of the department.”

That could have worked somewhat with Carter and Rachel, and would have been a better full circle moment, given how Mark looked out for and mentored Carter (if not more, then just as much as Benton did).

With that said, I really liked the finale, one of TV’s better ones.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Thinking more about Rachel, and I  am not entirely sure how US college admissions work other than what is depicted on TV, but it seems like a girl who struggled with stuff in high school after her parents divorce (bad friends, skipping school, drugs (maybe)) and then turned things around after her dad died would be a pretty compelling story to tell admissions people (like in an essay or interview or recommendation letter or something). 

I think that is a very valid point.  Kids who turn themselves around and excel can overcome a lot.  Also, even if her grades were bad early in high school. Mark died just as Rachel was approaching 16, so maybe at the end of her sophomore year.  If she re-dedicated herself after that, she would've gotten decent grades the last two years which are the ones that really count for college admissions.  Presuming that Jen or Elizabeth or Jen's husband had some connections with someone in academia; that could go a long way towards getting into a better college although plenty of people, including myself, entered med school after attending (and getting the grades) at a quality state school with an open admissions policy.

I don't recall anyone asking about my high school career at all when it came to med school admission.  I suppose the application asked for the name and year of graduation, but they certainly didn't care to see my transcripts or ask about my extracurriculars.  That is ancient history by the time med school rolls around.

ETA:  I went to med school with a guy who attended college at Berkeley initially, spending most of his days 'dropping LSD and going into the woods to watch the trees melt'.  He flunked out.  A few years later, he had grown up, went back to college, not at Berkeley, did well, and got admitted to med school at about age 30.  He was a good student, got a good residency and eventually ended up in academia as Dean of a medical school.  He recently retired having been honored multiple times for his achievements in medical education.  Somehow, I think he would've been a pretty understanding guy when it came to people with a bit of a past.

Edited October 11, 2022 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

I just realized the other day that even most of the “later” episodes of ER (so like S12-S14) are almost or have surpassed 15 years old. 

I’m kind of thinking of doing another rewatch soon, although this one will be a truncated watch. Once Carter leaves, I have a single-digit number of episodes selected to watch between S12-14 and then I’ll skip to the last season. But S1-8 are still solid for the most part. I think there’s less than five episodes in that stretch I don’t really care for and don’t want to see again. 

[Kel Varnsen]

Also thinking about Rachel and the finale it goes back to the whole thing where depending on the story, County is either a world class teaching/research hospital with a super competitive med student and residency program or it is an underfunded shithole where no one wants to work and they will accept people like Malucci. Maybe for the finale we are on the second one and Rachel is going to a terrible medical school.

[Hiyo]

Split the difference? An underfunded shithole with good teachers and good potential for learning via work experience? 
 

Also, I always felt the ER was the one area that seemed to have funding issues. The surgery department seemed to be doing really well.

[LizDC]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

Presuming that Jen or Elizabeth or Jen's husband had some connections with someone in academia; that could go a long way towards getting into a better college

Didn’t Rachel go to Duke? Elizabeth was faculty there at the Med School.

[littlebennysmom]

6 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I just realized the other day that even most of the “later” episodes of ER (so like S12-S14) are almost or have surpassed 15 years old. 

I’m kind of thinking of doing another rewatch soon, although this one will be a truncated watch. Once Carter leaves, I have a single-digit number of episodes selected to watch between S12-14 and then I’ll skip to the last season. But S1-8 are still solid for the most part. I think there’s less than five episodes in that stretch I don’t really care for and don’t want to see again. 

Warning about doing a rewatch of episodesvia POP -- they are now cutting off the last minute of dialogue in each episode to promotesome crappy show.  That last minute of show is crucial in most episodes and it's making me crazy.

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, littlebennysmom said:

Warning about doing a rewatch of episodesvia POP -- they are now cutting off the last minute of dialogue in each episode to promotesome crappy show.  That last minute of show is crucial in most episodes and it's making me crazy.

I don’t get Pop (and I’m cancelling cable when I move in a few months anyway) so I’ll be going back through on Hulu. But someone else scrolling by may find that useful to know. :) 

[Dr.OO7]

On 10/11/2022 at 8:54 AM, Danny Franks said:

his complete ineffectiveness brought out the worst in both Elizabeth and Rachel.

It was abhorrently pathetic that not even his younger daughter nearly dying from a drug overdose thanks to drugs that his older daughter brought into the house could make him take action. If he didn't want to throw her out, okay. But for God's sake, buckle down and get her some help, punish her for her actions, etc. The fact that she was still drinking and using drugs during his last days on earth proves that he didn't handle the situation all.

On 10/11/2022 at 8:54 AM, Danny Franks said:

Mark always avoided confrontation whenever he could. Part of it was that he liked to be liked and part of it was that he just seemed scared of taking a real stand on anything that didn't revolve around patient care.

The irony is that that kind of behavior ultimately ends up making everyone DISLIKE you, just as you feared would happen in the first place. It's like when Doug was campaigning for the pediatric attending position. He tells him that he'll support him, then five minutes later is assuring Kerry that SHE'LL have his support in blocking the proposal. Of course, the both of them end up furious with him when they realize that he's been talking out of both sides of his mouth.

It's a very unfortunate character trait that he displayed as early as the first season--not having the balls to tell Susan that she herself needed to be more assertive --and he displayed it right until the very end.

[Notabug]

9 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

It was abhorrently pathetic that not even his younger daughter nearly dying from a drug overdose thanks to drugs that his older daughter brought into the house could make him take action. If he didn't want to throw her out, okay. But for God's sake, buckle down and get her some help, punish her for her actions, etc. The fact that she was still drinking and using drugs during his last days on earth proves that he didn't handle the situation all.

The irony is that that kind of behavior ultimately ends up making everyone DISLIKE you, just as you feared would happen in the first place. It's like when Doug was campaigning for the pediatric attending position. He tells him that he'll support him, then five minutes later is assuring Kerry that SHE'LL have his support in blocking the proposal. Of course, the both of them end up furious with him when they realize that he's been talking out of both sides of his mouth.

It's a very unfortunate character trait that he displayed as early as the first season--not having the balls to tell Susan that she herself needed to be more assertive --and he displayed it right until the very end.

The portrayal of Mark on the show was at least consistent.  His passivity and refusal to engage was also a big part of the failure of his first marriage.  He doesn't want to leave Chicago, he wants his job to take priority over Jen's.  It's selfish, but true. Does he ever come right out and say it?  Does he ever sit down with her and try to hash things out (other than the stupid long distance commute non-compromise)?  No, he just accepts the ER attending job and ignores the fact that it will limit her prospects and, when faced with her new job in Milwaukee, doesn't even consider that there are ER jobs, including county hospital jobs, there. 

When the search was on for a new chief resident in Season 2, he did practically the same thing as he did to Doug over the peds attending job.  Susan's friend was up for the job and she understandably praised her to Mark and he let her think he was behind her appointment.  Later, he finds out that Kerry is in the running and that Morgenstern thinks it might be a good idea to go with her because she is a more assertive personality than Mark and he goes along with that.  No wonder Susan was pissed.

He pulled all that underhanded; illegal stuff to find out Jeannie's HIV status and then pretended he didn't know who Employee X was while they worked on the rules.  He felt bad about it later, but that's little consolation.

Real life Marks are a nightmare as colleagues, supervisors, friends and husbands.

[Dr.OO7]

24 minutes ago, Notabug said:

When the search was on for a new chief resident in Season 2, he did practically the same thing as he did to Doug over the peds attending job.  Susan's friend was up for the job and she understandably praised her to Mark and he let her think he was behind her appointment.  Later, he finds out that Kerry is in the running and that Morgenstern thinks it might be a good idea to go with her because she is a more assertive personality than Mark and he goes along with that.  No wonder Susan was pissed.

Then he caps it off by sitting there and doing nothing while the tension between the two of them escalates and only when it finally blows up does he say something.

It's just like he did a few months prior over her clashes with Kayson--he let her think he was on her side for months and only when things get to the boiling point does he tell her otherwise.

And THAT'S when he tells her that she needs to be more assertive. Aside from being unbelievably hypocritical of him, dude, you're her Chief Resident. For you to not address her lack of assertiveness is SERIOUS professional negligence on YOUR part. But no, it's far easier for him to leave it to Morganstern to tell her and make HIM the bad guy.

[renatae]

Ugh. I hate teenage Rachel. What a selfish piece of work. Can't believe she was supposed to grow up into a polite Med student.

[renatae]

On 10/11/2022 at 10:18 AM, Notabug said:

I think that is a very valid point.  Kids who turn themselves around and excel can overcome a lot.  Also, even if her grades were bad early in high school. Mark died just as Rachel was approaching 16, so maybe at the end of her sophomore year.  If she re-dedicated herself after that, she would've gotten decent grades the last two years which are the ones that really count for college admissions.  Presuming that Jen or Elizabeth or Jen's husband had some connections with someone in academia; that could go a long way towards getting into a better college although plenty of people, including myself, entered med school after attending (and getting the grades) at a quality state school with an open admissions policy.

I don't recall anyone asking about my high school career at all when it came to med school admission.  I suppose the application asked for the name and year of graduation, but they certainly didn't care to see my transcripts or ask about my extracurriculars.  That is ancient history by the time med school rolls around.

ETA:  I went to med school with a guy who attended college at Berkeley initially, spending most of his days 'dropping LSD and going into the woods to watch the trees melt'.  He flunked out.  A few years later, he had grown up, went back to college, not at Berkeley, did well, and got admitted to med school at about age 30.  He was a good student, got a good residency and eventually ended up in academia as Dean of a medical school.  He recently retired having been honored multiple times for his achievements in medical education.  Somehow, I think he would've been a pretty understanding guy when it came to people with a bit of a past.

I've known people who've turned themselves around from being poor or indifferent students, but Rachel appears to have a personality issue. She's not just uninterested, she's a complete narcissist. Common to a certain extent in teenagers, but Rachel seems to operate completely in her own sphere. So I'm having a hard time seeing her turn around into a cordial person who cares about others.