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S01.E06: The Red Forest

ElectricBoogaloo

By ElectricBoogaloo
in 12 Monkeys [V]

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Chaos Theory

Chaos Theory

This show keeps getting better and better.  i loved the scenes between Cole and Aaron.   They were made of win.  I love the idea that Cassie isn't just important to Cole but she is actually important to the future.  Loved the moment when Aaron saw Cole Splinter.    "You believe me now?"  

 

The future scenes have always been the least interesting for me.  I do however like both Ramse and Jones.  I find both of them interesting characters.  I am interested in the mystery of Jones.  I just don;t particularly enjoy long scenes (or entire episodes) in the future.  

belladonna77

belladonna77

I didn't like this episode as much as the others.  It was good to find out what the splintering is doing to Cole, but I really dislike Aaron.  It's hard for me to suspend my dislike for him and watch an episode that's mainly he and Cole working together.  I continue to like the dynamic between Cole and Ramsey.  

 

Is there an episode seven trailer up anywhere?

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thuganomics85

thuganomics85

I'm pretty sure that guy on the TV Aaron was watching, was played by Ari Millen from Orphan Black.  I think I saw his name in the credits too, so I'm guessing he's going to be showing up again.

 

Can't believe that this new woman character (IMDB is just calling her the "Striking Woman"), is the same actress who played the New Editor on Gracepoint last fall.  Looks way different here.  I'm also wondering if she is going to end up being Jones for some reason (despite a way different accent), or if it's just another Pallid Man situation, where the antagonist all have these kind of mysterious names.

 

Nikita fan in me loved seeing Aaron Stanford and Noah Bean together again, and just picturing what an alternative universe would be like where Birkhoff and Ryan Fletcher were dealing with time traveling.  Past that though, and I just liked the Cole/Aaron pairing in general.  Loved the bantering, arguing, and finally acceptance.  Aaron actually handled the truth pretty well: a "Holy Shit!" is about a well as you can expect, in that situation.  And, I liked the whole thing of Aaron accidentally shooting that one Cole, injured the other.  And, how bad he was with guns in general.  At least you have other qualities, Aaron!

 

Glad Cassie is safe again, but I have to think that whatever drug she took that made her see the Red Forest and that mysterious guy, is bound to mess with her mind.  At least she's not like Cole, who just found out that his time-traveling has a limit, and all this splintering will kill him eventually.

 

Alt-Ramse with the eye-patch reminded me of the time Kirk Acevedo spent as The Governor's henchman on The Walking Dead.  I did love how amused Ramse was when he found out all about that.

shapeshifter

shapeshifter

Loved the line from Cole to Ramse: You're a good man in any reality. Father's Day t-shirt maybe?

Loved the whole episode.

I enjoyed Cole and Aaron! They make a good team and their chemistry is better than Cole and Cassandra....

Like with Ramse, they get to banter and do humor. Too bad Cassie has to be so damn serious all the time, but I guess the plot demands it.

When Cole and Aaron Marker were skulking around the parked cars and greenhouse, and Cole was playing tough guy to Aaron's suit-iness, I couldn't help but wish Aaron Sanford had a little more of Bruce Willis's physicality, if you know what I mean.

Did the writers just want to screw with us on the discussion forums when they named a main character Aaron at the same time that the lead character is played by an actor named Aaron?

Save the doctor, save the world.

 

That is all.

You mean like Heroes' "Save the cheerleader, save the world?" Nah. This show is better. IMO.
FurryFury

FurryFury

When Cole and Aaron Marker were skulking around the parked cars and greenhouse, and Cole was playing tough guy to Aaron's suit-iness, I couldn't help but wish Aaron Sanford had a little more of Bruce Willis's physicality, if you know what I mean.

 

I understand exactly what you mean. Stanford's doing a good job, but I still don't feel like he's the right choice for the role, type-wise.

 

Alternate universe Ramse really reminded me of Red!Charlie on Fringe.

 

I'm a bit pissed we didn't learn more about Jones, the moment of her death seemed fitting for a reveal or a crumb or something.

 

No idea what they're doing with Cassandra and the drug, but we'll see. At least she gets something new to do.

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mswyrr

mswyrr

(edited)

I adore Katarina (aka Jones) in this episode. We only get a few minutes of her in the other reality, deprived of the machine and her obsession with changing the past, but it shows so much… I bet that once she  couldn’t put all her energy and hope in the machine anymore, didn’t have anything to focus on, the weight of all the people she killed striving after futility finally hit her. And that’s what caused the suicide attempt.

 

Which is part of her wanting Cole to know, in particular for her alternate self to tell him, that he is a sacrifice. She has enough distance to know that what the other Katarina is doing isn't right. She had to live with herself after all the distractions and justifications were stripped away. And by giving Cole the key to get the truth out of the other Katarina, she's reaching out to herself as well as him. Each time original!Katarina hits the button to splinter him she's killing him piece by piece. And he should know. I've been thinking a lot about how there's a sort of Abraham + Isaac thing about them -- Katarina leading people to her scientific alter and sacrificing them for her big ideas. But here things shift in a major way as Cole accepts that he won't just die if they succeed. If he fails he will have nothing, no life. He's choosing to give up his life.

 

Related to that, I loved how Ramse and Katarina’s ethical discussion carried out in an AU where we get to *see* what following Ramse’s logic and trying to care for the people of the present rather than sacrifice everything to change the past looks like. And that happens even as Cole pushes him to restart the machine, end everything he's built. Which, honestly, I think Ramse did more for love of his lost friend than anything. I don’t think he’s entirely persuaded by Team End Everything. I hope not. It makes for a great ethical conflict.

Edited by mswyrr
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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

...Alternate universe Ramse really reminded me of Red!Charlie on Fringe....

Maybe his next gig he can be a lead in a series about alternate universes.

...No idea what they're doing with Cassandra and the drug, but we'll see....

It's interesting that the episode title is "Red Forest" and, although we did see Cassandra seeing a red forest, we got no clue as to why. My best guess is it will make her able to get in the machine and time travel without dying like Cole and the others.
Grammaeryn

Grammaeryn

I was all on board with the skeleton in the night room being Cole last episode due to the headaches and nosebleed. BUT he was probably reacting to being close to another self - not the skeleton kind. Any guesses on who is The Witness? For ultimate shock value, it has to be someone we know. I thought it could be Aaron up until now. It's probably that hacker Ari is playing but who would care about him? Is his last name Jones? Ha!

shapeshifter

shapeshifter

...Any guesses on who is The Witness? For ultimate shock value, it has to be someone we know....

Not necessarily. The show is still young, so they could introduce new characters and still have it be someone we know, just not someone we know as of this episode. Or were you also considering that scenario? Regardless, it could just be an ancestor or descendant of someone we know.

Something about the grimace reminded me of Deacon. Heh.

ottoDbusdriver

ottoDbusdriver

It's interesting that the episode title is "Red Forest" and, although we did see Cassandra seeing a red forest, we got no clue as to why. My best guess is it will make her able to get in the machine and time travel without dying like Cole and the others.

 

I was thinking a more appropriate episode title would have been 'Two Wolves'.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

I was thinking a more appropriate episode title would have been 'Two Wolves'.

A Google search for which wolf are you feeding seems to indicate that the fable is of Cherokee origin. I loved the story and the way it was used to help Aaron realize that Cole appreciated Cassandra.

I also loved the "What's 911?" and "What's a license plate?" type lines used to prepare Aaron (and us) for Aaron finally getting to see Cole go poof and accepting him as a time traveler.

If the red forest drink does enable time travel without body breakdown (just my theory--not based on anything I have heard or seen anywhere), maybe Cole can drink some?

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ElectricBoogaloo

ElectricBoogaloo

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(edited)

Awwwww, Ryan and Nerd back together again! That really warmed my little Nikita loving heart. I loved when Cole said, "Hand me the gun," and Aaron told him that he left it in the car. The look that Cole gave him was priceless.

 

I'm glad that Cole now knows that splintering is going to have a fatal effect on him. It seems only fair that he know what it's doing to him. And now that he's so involved in the mission, he doesn't care that this is going to kill him. He just wants to know if he will be alive long enough to complete the mission.

 

One thing I don't understand from a previous episode is when they kept saying that if Cole succeeded in destroying the virus, then all of them would blink out of existence. But they were all alive before the plague, so why would destroying the virus erase them from existing? Wouldn't they still be alive in 2043 but just in a nicer version of the world?

 

Man, I love every version of Ramse. He is always awesome no matter what the circumstsances. I love his friendship with Cole.

 

I can't wait until Cassie and Jennifer see each other again so they can talk about that freaky tea that the flower man makes them drink.

 

I don't mind at all that Cole is not some big guy with huge muscles. If you look at the way he was living in 2043, it makes sense that he is not bulked up. When he and Ramse were on their own, they were scavanging, fighting, and walking a lot. That can make you strong but not in the way that working out at a gym does. Since joining the compound, he is eating more regularly but he's still not going to get super muscular being cooped up inside most of the day (I do wonder what they are eating in there - do they have indoor crops? An endless supply of protein powder from GNC? Old boxes of Twinkies?). If he was totally ripped with bulging muscles, I would find it ludicrous. Cole has been shown to be a fighter and I'm sure that was born out of his desire to survive. It seems more credible to me that he has more of a normal build than a bodybuilder's physique.

 

On a shallow note, did Cassie's eyebrows seem darker and bigger than usual this week?

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo
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BooBear

BooBear

Not necessarily. The show is still young, so they could introduce new characters and still have it be someone we know, just not someone we know as of this episode. Or were you also considering that scenario?

 

I thought it was odd that we had so much of the "Senator" last night and that there were big things happening that Aaron wasn't privy too. There was an early scene before the Senator walked in that I thought went on too long.

 

Though I love Noah Bean and Aaron Stanford..I thought it was a little boring. I loved Aaron (the character) finding out it was all true and apologizing to Cassie. Kind of thought it was setting up a triangle because now Aaron would be in the fold.  I also liked the timeline for splintering (but wonder how the show can go on with that sort of limitation). Maybe at one point Cole will have to stay in 2015 and get messages via future events and he leave clues for them that way.

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ottoDbusdriver

ottoDbusdriver

I thought it was odd that we had so much of the "Senator" last night and that there were big things happening that Aaron wasn't privy too. There was an early scene before the Senator walked in that I thought went on too long.

 

And what is the CIA doing in Chechnya with Operation Troy ?  Because when I think Troy, I think Trojan horse.

mla40

mla40

I liked this episode, I find myself distracted by stupid things though. Like Ramse's teeth for example, have they always been so prominent? And white? I find myself fixated on them and I never have before in any other show. Did he have dental work? See what I mean!! It's like this through every episode. Driving myself crazy, but maybe it's my way of blocking out the aspects of the show that I can't make sense of. Paradox???

ottoDbusdriver

ottoDbusdriver

(edited)

And what is the CIA doing in Chechnya with Operation Troy ?  Because when I think Troy, I think Trojan horse.

Not that it necessarily matters, but the papers Aaron is holding in the Senator's office spell it "Troi." Yeah. Like the emotion-sensing Star Trek character, but that's probably even less relevant.

 

I missed that.  Though it would be funny if Marina Sirtis showed up in the next episode.

Edited by ottoDbusdriver
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belladonna77

belladonna77

Awwwww, Ryan and Nerd back together again! That really warmed my little Nikita loving heart. I loved when Cole said, "Hand me the gun," and Aaron told him that he left it in the car. The look that Cole gave him was priceless.

 

I'm glad that Cole now knows that splintering is going to have a fatal effect on him. It seems only fair that he know what it's doing to him. And now that he's so involved in the mission, he doesn't care that this is going to kill him. He just wants to know if he will be alive long enough to complete the mission.

 

One thing I don't understand from a previous episode is when they kept saying that if Cole succeeded in destroying the virus, then all of them would blink out of existence. But they were all alive before the plague, so why would destroying the virus erase them from existing? Wouldn't they still be alive in 2043 but just in a nicer version of the world?

 

Man, I love every version of Ramse. He is always awesome no matter what the circumstsances. I love his friendship with Cole.

 

I can't wait until Cassie and Jennifer see each other again so they can talk about that freaky tea that the flower man makes them drink.

 

I don't mind at all that Cole is not some big guy with huge muscles. If you look at the way he was living in 2043, it makes sense that he is not bulked up. When he and Ramse were on their own, they were scavanging, fighting, and walking a lot. That can make you strong but not in the way that working out at a gym does. Since joining the compound, he is eating more regularly but he's still not going to get super muscular being cooped up inside most of the day (I do wonder what they are eating in there - do they have indoor crops? An endless supply of protein powder from GNC? Old boxes of Twinkies?). If he was totally ripped with bulging muscles, I would find it ludicrous. Cole has been shown to be a fighter and I'm sure that was born out of his desire to survive. It seems more credible to me that he has more of a normal build than a bodybuilder's physique.

 

On a shallow note, did Cassie's eyebrows seem darker and bigger than usual this week?

I agree.  It reminds of how annoyed I felt when I saw the latest reboot of the Terminator franchise.  Humanity is hiding out from the machines.  Exactly where are these people getting all the necessary protein to bulk up?  It would be ridiculous for Cole or Ramse to be jacked.  They've been on the run from the West VII.  They considered eating a dog, I really don't see it being reasonable for him to have tons of muscle mass.  A wiry body type, yes.  

 

And Cassie's eyebrows did seem bigger and darker to me.  They're really all I notice when I look at her now.  That and how much body and volume her body has after being held captive.  

 

Also, I thought it was hilarious that Cole watches Jennifer get arrested and turned away.  "She's fine."  He really doesn't like her, does he?  I can see why, but she amuses me.  

kat165

kat165

Furry, you called it on RedFringe Charlie. I thought the same thing. Makes me long for Fringe even more.

 

I have to disagree on the actor who plays Cole, who is new to me. I like that he's not a Bruce Willis (although I like Bruce) action type. I rarely get to see lead men who appeal to me and I like his long haired slubbyness. I like that he's not a typical buff action hero.
It's one of the things that's keeping me watching.

 

Is anyone else finding the production entirely too dark? It's often so hard to see what's actually going on that I think I'm losing out on a lot of the story.

 

Also, and this is not a criticism, just a point of interest, all the female characters seem to be played by the same woman. When we first saw Jennifer I thought she was Cassy in a dark wig. Dr. Jones looks like an older Cassy with an accent. The new mystery lady who was on Gracepoint, I thought she was a younger Dr. Jones. They all have a very similiar flavor, not their characters, but the way they come off. I'm not sure if it's intentional or not.

 

Regarding the splintering's fatal effect I thought that COle was aware of that from the very beginning. I vaguely remember a conversation between him and Ramses (who I always call Charlie) where Ramses asks if he's sure he wants to do this knowing that what he does may wipe out his existence. Although he might just have meant that by changing things he would cease to exit rather than the physical ramifications of time travel.

 

ElectricB, good point on Cole's physique.

mswyrr

mswyrr

(edited)

re: body type. It's weird to me how people seem to have forgotten, due to the prevalence of a highly sculpted, unnatural body ideal for men, that working muscle in men doesn't look like huge, highly defined guns and washboard abs. That look is largely a mid-to-late 20th Century product of having access to specialized gym equipment that will target muscles in certain ways and enough money to afford specialized dietary regimes/protein supplements/etc.

 

Cole and Ramse don't have any of that. But they can nonetheless be very strong. They have had to make their bodies work since they were young just to survive as few people Cole fights in 2015 have had to do, they have learned fighting as life an death and bring that level of dirty fighting and intensity to it, and Cole has the physical augmentations Jones et al gave him (adrenaline is an amazing thing) so it's really not unbelievable that he is as strong as he is.

 

On the other hand, they do have Jennifer fit the Hollywood ideal of super skinniness even though antipsychotic drugs are known to cause weight gain, so this is another situation where a media product allowing men to have more realistic body types for their situation is combined by women characters not being allowed that. Oh, well.

Edited by mswyrr
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belladonna77

belladonna77

.On the other hand, they do have Jennifer fit the Hollywood ideal of super skinniness even though antipsychotic drugs are known to cause weight gain, so this is another situation where a media product allowing men to have more realistic body types for their situation is combined by women characters not getting that. Oh, well.

I agree with you about the body type thing, but Jennifer hasn't been taking the antipsychotic meds.  Remember how she spit them out shortly after taking them?  

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

...Regarding the splintering's fatal effect I thought that COle was aware of that from the very beginning. I vaguely remember a conversation between him and Ramses (who I always call Charlie) where Ramses asks if he's sure he wants to do this knowing that what he does may wipe out his existence. Although he might just have meant that by changing things he would cease to exit rather than the physical ramifications of time travel...

Yes, to me, "wiping out existence" seems more like going poof than dying of side effects. Still, he must have noticed that the splintering made him feel crappy, but then lots of people take medications with horrible side effects too.
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Netfoot

Netfoot

And what is the CIA doing in Chechnya with Operation Troy ?  Because when I think Troy, I think Trojan horse.

 

It can't be coincidence that Wexler, the whistle-blower with the hammer, is "holed up" in Chechnya.

 

Not that it necessarily matters, but the papers Aaron is holding in the Senator's office spell it "Troi." Yeah. Like the emotion-sensing Star Trek character, but that's probably even less relevant.

 

No, it's spelt "Troy" like "Helen of."

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Jordan27

Jordan27

You mean like Heroes' "Save the cheerleader, save the world?" Nah. This show is better. IMO.

 

I found the first season of Heroes to be great, but that show went down quicker than most.


One thing I don't understand from a previous episode is when they kept saying that if Cole succeeded in destroying the virus, then all of them would blink out of existence. But they were all alive before the plague, so why would destroying the virus erase them from existing? Wouldn't they still be alive in 2043 but just in a nicer version of the world?

 

The plague version of them in 2043 would not exist because the virus would never have happened.  Everything would revert back to 2017 and then the world would live on normally as they would.  Not sure if they would be alive in 2043 as no way to know if anything would have happened to them without the plague.  Car crash, illness, etc.

Mecca

Mecca

I'm really trying to keep up with the plot of this show, but we're six episodes in now and I'm finding that I'm starting to get confused about what's going on.  I feel like they've thrown a lot at the viewers in a really short amount of time.  I'm still trying to remember everyone's name.    How am I supposed to keep track of the timeline as well?  This is definitely not a show that you can casually watch.

 

Are we supposed to know who that lady was that was putting the suggestion in Cassie's head?

FurryFury

FurryFury

This is definitely not a show that you can casually watch.

 

I dunno, I watch it pretty casually (as casually as I can watch a TV show, at least), and I don't have any problems. I'm used to time travel shows, though.

 

Are we supposed to know who that lady was that was putting the suggestion in Cassie's head?

 

No, she's a new character.

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Danny Franks

Danny Franks

I think this show really sparks when Cole and Cassie are in scenes together. Their chemistry is so much fun. So when I realised Cole was going to be spending most of this episode with Aaron, I was a bit disappointed.

 

Turns out the two of them have fun chemistry as well. Aaron is good as the incredulous sceptic, and Cole plays off that very well as the weary cynic. Really enjoyed their bickering and the way Aaron seemed to play a sort of little brother role to Cole. I hope they never go love triangle with the three characters, because I like the idea of these two becoming bros.

 

I think Aaron Stanford is killing it in this role, with his nervy, twitchy energy and callous attitude to life. The writers are not scared of making Cole unlikeable, because they know Stanford has enough charm to make people like him anyway. Him beating the hell out of that guy, and having to be pulled away by Aaron (this might get confusing, with one actor and another character having the same names). I'm also pretty impressed with how wiped out they make him look. Scruffy, dirty, exhausted, constantly at the end of his tether. Dude needs a spa day or something.

 

Honestly, I'm not too worried about the timeline stuff, because the way it plays, it feels like they throw a whole bunch of potential futures at you, and you can just enjoy or dismiss them as they come. The only real timeline is the one tracking Cole. That's the one I care about. Doesn't matter if Ramse was the leader of West VII in one reality, because Cole skipped out of it pretty quickly. Now, if they start throwing multiple Coles at us, it might get more confusing.

 

As for Cassie in this episode, she didn't have much fun, did she? Amanda Schull is killing it as well, and I really bought how terrified and confused and beaten up she felt. I knew she deserved better than she was given on Suits.

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Hanahope

Hanahope

I'm really trying to keep up with the plot of this show, but we're six episodes in now and I'm finding that I'm starting to get confused about what's going on.  I feel like they've thrown a lot at the viewers in a really short amount of time.  I'm still trying to remember everyone's name.    How am I supposed to keep track of the timeline as well?  This is definitely not a show that you can casually watch.

 

 

I watched the first two episodes as they came on, and was confused and doubtful as well as to whether I'd keep going.  I then let the next episodes pile up on my DVR.  Over the weekend, I watched 4 of them at once and that really helped a lot.  Just helped to keep the story lines and time lines straight.  It does get confusing if you are multi-tasking, or waiting week to week (for me at least).  I'm still behind 2 episodes, but will wait till after the next one and then watch another 3 at once, probably this weekend.

 

Substantively, I was thinking the witness is going to turn out to be Cole, which is why he had headaches at the warehouse where Cassie was kept.  But in thinking about it, it wouldn't make sense, since he would have already known where the Night room was and would have sent Flower Tea Man there early (if at all, since apparently that's not the origin of the virus  -or at least it wasn't the only one).  Of course, it could all be a big set up where Witness has this list of things he did while jumping back and forth and he has to check off each one to make sure it all happens "again."

 

But I agree that the reveal of the Witness is going to be something of a shock, because we only see him/her in a mask, and only through the viewpoint of a drugged person.

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