Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Camera One]

I would love to see Ruby again, but I can't really fault the writers if the actress isn't available. What are they going to do, get a stand-in in a red cloak and only shoot her from the back?

 

The writers for sure cannot be criticized for the lack of availability of the actress, but how they use her when they can get her.  Instead of using Red's limited presence for relationship-building with Snow, they used her as a transitional device for a Regina scene.

Edited December 21, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Meghan Ory has nothing going on right now. They could have easily brought her back for this season. Not to mention Jamie Chung (Mulan) is also available.

[The Cake is a Pie]

Hmm, I thought I saw people posting about how she was tied up with a movie and another tv series, but if not then I don't see why she isn't back either. I'd prefer her over Will Scarlett, too.

[Faemonic]

 Wait, didn't Mulan join Robin Hood's band? Why is Robin Hood's band there and Mulan is not there?

 

I miss Ruby, too.

 

 

But the main thing I wanted to post about was how there was a lot of good tension in 2B about whether Snowing would split up over going to live in the Enchanted Forest if Emma was going to follow them, but then Neverland happened, and then Pan's curse with selective transportation contrived it so that Emma would have to remain in the real world with Henry (even though Emma was born in the Enchanted Forest), and then Emma got to visit the Enchanted Forest and actually play princess instead of check out the ruins of the place that she could have once grown up as princess in...

 

But, I haven't watched Heroes and Villains, so I don't know how the portal to Arandelle works. Was there any reason that people who wanted to return to The Enchanted Forest couldn't use the portal to Arandelle and just take a boat ride to the Enchanted Forest? I'm thinking of Emma, Snow, and Charming again debating whether they can go back or should go back...but I'm also thinking of the peasants who got caught up in this giant curse without ever getting to vote for it, like, yeah, Grumpy appreciated pencillin, ice cream, and electricity but he also thought of the Enchanted Forest as home. Doesn't he get to have a story arc shown about how "home" is really wherever the other six dwarves are or something? But back to Emma and Snowing. Is that story arc just done without ever being actually resolved?

[Camera One]

But, I haven't watched Heroes and Villains, so I don't know how the portal to Arandelle works. Was there any reason that people who wanted to return to The Enchanted Forest couldn't use the portal to Arandelle and just take a boat ride to the Enchanted Forest? I'm thinking of Emma, Snow, and Charming again debating whether they can go back or should go back...but I'm also thinking of the peasants who got caught up in this giant curse without ever getting to vote for it, like, yeah, Grumpy appreciated pencillin, ice cream, and electricity but he also thought of the Enchanted Forest as home. Doesn't he get to have a story arc shown about how "home" is really wherever the other six dwarves are or something?

 

That was what I was wondering in the week leading up to the episode, and as expected, no one said a thing.  In the flashbacks, Anna intended to go from Arendelle to the Enchanted Forest, find out what her parents were up to AND return in 2 weeks, so it must be a very short ship-ride away.

[Shanna Marie]

A non-spoilery discussion that started in the spoilers thread:

Now if David or Snow started asking questions about Hook due to a genuine interest in getting to know him rather than in some sort of attempt to assess his worthiness for Emma, that's a different story.

I think this is yet another case of the characters not being allowed to interact like normal human beings. You'd think all of them would be curious about Hook. Emma just knows the background of his desire for vengeance against Rumple, and true, he tends to shut her down or deflect when she asks personal questions, but you'd think at some point she'd be curious about him in general. Or was that a date conversation that happened offscreen? Even if he weren't dating their daughter, wouldn't Snow and David be curious about where he's from and what makes him tick? This guy was not too long ago a villain and now they're trusting him as an ally. You'd think they'd want to know a little bit more about who he used to be and why he changed. He's got a different accent than they do, so I'd assume he's "foreign" to their part of the world. Do they recognize his accent? Are they curious about where he's from?

 

And then there's the biggie: He's from somewhere around two hundred years ago. He's walking history. This is an area where Snow, David and the other Enchanted Forestians would relate to him differently than Emma does, since to Emma he's foreign enough in being from another world, so the time period he's from doesn't make that big a difference, but to the others it would be like meeting someone who lived through the Napoleonic Wars would be for us. Isn't anyone interested in that? Wouldn't they want to know what he saw, who he knew, what it was like? Once she started tolerating him, you'd think Belle at least would be following him around, asking questions about his time and how his experiences compare to the history books.

 

Even if Snow and David don't start in on the "are you good enough for our daughter" line of questioning, they should be trying to get to know him, and I'm surprised they aren't more curious about him as a person.

[Camera One]

Even if Snow and David don't start in on the "are you good enough for our daughter" line of questioning, they should be trying to get to know him, and I'm surprised they aren't more curious about him as a person.

 

Snow and David hardly get any screentime to bond with Emma herself, nor do they get time with any of their friends, so I don't anticipate much in the way of them getting to know Hook.  Like all things on this show, they will go from "are you good enough" to complete acceptance. 

[Shanna Marie]

Snow and David hardly get any screentime to bond with Emma herself, nor do they get time with any of their friends, so I don't anticipate much in the way of them getting to know Hook.

I know, alas. But I do find it weird that no one has even thought anything of the fact that he's from 200 years ago. Emma keeps bringing it up, probably because she's a little freaked out by the age thing, but for everyone else, he's essentially a time traveler, and no one finds this interesting? Then again, I guess Rumple's from the same era and has been around all along, so it may not be that big a deal. It would be nice if we just got the hint that people talked about things, like Hook commenting to Emma about how he's seen less brutal interrogations in wartime than what her parents subjected him to at dinner the night before.

 

It's strange, for a show in which so much apparently happens offscreen, we get no sense of these characters having offscreen lives. We get to see so little, and yet it's like they enter the Coradome and freeze whenever they leave our screens.

 

As an example of another show that did it well, in the first season of Haven, they'd have little running conversations between the two main police characters throughout an episode. We never heard the whole conversation. Sometimes we didn't even know what set it off. But as they arrived at a crime scene or a witness's home, they'd be in mid conversation about something entirely unrelated to the case. We'd only hear bits and pieces, maybe in the car or as they got out of the car, and sometimes they'd refer to something from the topic of the day while on the job, but it was just enough to give the impression that they talked to each other when we weren't watching them and that they talked about something other than work. As they grew closer, the conversations grew more personal, but the fact that we knew they were talking made the relationship seem more real. On this show, it doesn't feel like they talk when we're not watching. There's no sense of what they were talking about at dinner last night that gets referred to while they're tracking down the latest monster/villain. They have no personal lives unless they're the big, dramatic relationship Moments. Even if we don't see them washing dishes or watching Netflix, it would be nice if we had a sense that these things were happening.

[Camera One]

It's strange, for a show in which so much apparently happens offscreen, we get no sense of these characters having offscreen lives.

 

Well put.  It's almost like they freeze into Stone Statues when they're not on screen.  

[Faemonic]

I think this is yet another case of the characters not being allowed to interact like normal human beings. You'd think all of them would be curious about Hook.  Emma just knows the background of his desire for vengeance against Rumple, and true, he tends to shut her down or deflect when she asks personal questions, but you'd think at some point she'd be curious about him in general.

 

And then there's the biggie: He's from somewhere around two hundred years ago ... to the others it would be like meeting someone who lived through the Napoleonic Wars would be for us. Isn't anyone interested in that?

 

Wouldn't they want to know what he saw, who he knew, what it was like? Once she started tolerating him, you'd think Belle at least would be following him around, asking questions about his time and how his experiences compare to the history books.

 

Even if Snow and David don't start in on the "are you good enough for our daughter" line of questioning, they should be trying to get to know him, and I'm surprised they aren't more curious about him as a person.

Considering how we've seen Hook dodge Emma's personal questions a lot but opened up to David (offscreen, naturally,) about Liam...I think (well, I would want to think) there might be a whole lot more Charming/Hook friendship than we're seeing. I think Charming strikes a good enough balance between being the protective father and Hook's only onscreen friend (awkwaaard...I mean, why else would whether Hook snogged Emma at the end of the date be something that David doesn't want to know, but Mary Margaret is fine with, unless Mary Margaret wasn't as close to Hook as a person as David was and therefore it wouldn't be awkward for her to know everything that Hook's doing with her daughter? I am really fanwanking this.)

 

As for history, ha, ha... I actually fanwank that Fairy Tale Land is under a milder memory fog than the Storybrooke Curse. Everybody offscreen does a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead. There are events in Fairy Tale Land's past that affect the Fairy Tale Land future and present...but I seriously doubt that there is any cohesive history that the writers would care to put in the first place, therefore, characters wouldn't take an interest in something that doesn't exist. So, if Belle only started getting apologies from Hook and Regina because Belle fans demanded it (as I suspect was the case) and that's a concern of immediate relationships, then she's probably not going to geek out in the background with Hook about how The Jewel of the Realm was a model of brigantine that cannot be duplicated because all the finest artisan-sorcerer designers and builders were put to death upon the completion of the fleet so that they could never repeat such magnificence, and all other models were destroyed in the Sea Sorcerer's War of 350 A.R. (After Aslan's Resurrection.)

Edited December 23, 2014 by Faemonic

[Curio]

We'd only hear bits and pieces, maybe in the car or as they got out of the car, and sometimes they'd refer to something from the topic of the day while on the job, but it was just enough to give the impression that they talked to each other when we weren't watching them and that they talked about something other than work. As they grew closer, the conversations grew more personal, but the fact that we knew they were talking made the relationship seem more real.

 

I'm trying to think of the last time we even heard these characters talking about something that didn't have to do with the plot. Was it Emma and David making the crib? Emma made that Netflix comment to Hook, but that was more of a joke because she was implying that there's no time to do that with an evil snowman running around. Emma and Hook's date would have been the perfect time to have some fun conversations between those two, but literally everything was focused around the evil hand and Will barging into the date. Why couldn't we have had Hook in the middle of some pirate story from his past before Will crashed into them? Why couldn't Emma have been complaining about the baby keeping her up at night? Or why not have Hook ask about her dress, since he's never seen that side of Emma before? Did Emma buy the dress or borrow it from Snow? We'll never know because the writers don't care about anything that's not related to the plot.

 

I get that it can be boring to write the normal/mundane stuff. But why not show a scene of Emma and Hook watching a movie and getting interrupted by the next big baddie.

 

Because it literally bores Adam & Eddy to tears:

"Our audience gets so mad when we don't let couples relax and be happy," says Kitsis. "We're like, 'Really? You want to see Emma and Hook rent a movie and stay home? Oh, look, they're making popcorn and Hook needs help because he only has one hand! Isn't that adorable!' Where's the drama in that?"

 

Yes, we want to see that! It makes me so angry that they don't understand how to mine relationship drama from normal day-to-day conversations and routines. I'm not a professional television writer, so I hate to sound pretentious here, but it really shows how immature Adam & Eddy are if they think normal activities can't also be dramatic. You want to know which scene on Breaking Bad was one of the most tense and dramatic? A freaking scene with three characters eating green beans at the dinner table. Inglorious Basterds is filled to the max with its characters having dramatic conversations while doing normal activities like eating in a diner or talking in a movie theater lobby. The Wire showed the normal daily routines of the teenagers, which made the audience connect with them even though they're doing bad things.

 

The sad thing is this show has somehow created these three-dimensional characters and complex relationships that could have novels written about them. We can picture a nerdy Killian Jones being the only person in his Navy class to have read the assigned reading. We can fill in the gaps and think about Emma's other jobs as a bail bonds person. Heck, even though we know nothing about Neal's past, I can at least put together scenes about what he might have been doing before and after meeting Emma. But we'll never get to see these scenes play out on screen because a) they're not a Regina or useless villain flashback, and b) they aren't related to the plot. I get that they want to use the flashbacks as parallels to whatever the main Storybrooke story is, but it'd be nice to fill in the gaps of these characters' lives. If we don't know what the heck these people do when things are normal, we can't connect to them when they're fighting off monster #45,693.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Curio

[pezgirl7]

"Our audience gets so mad when we don't let couples relax and be happy," says Kitsis. "We're like, 'Really? You want to see Emma and Hook rent a movie and stay home? Oh, look, they're making popcorn and Hook needs help because he only has one hand! Isn't that adorable!' Where's the drama in that?"

 

 

That quote still infuriates me to no end. You can't have drama without building up the characters first, because know one is going to give a crap about the characters otherwise, so the drama will be meaningless. And I think character build-up is best done in quieter moments.

Edited December 23, 2014 by pezgirl7

[KingOfHearts]

 

That quote still infuriates me to no end. You can't have drama without building up the characters first, because know one is going to give a crap about the characters, so the drama will be meaningless. And I think character build-up is best done in quieter moments.

This. What's the point of defeating one Big Bad after another if there's nothing satisfying to go for? It's that surviving instead of living Anna talked about. We can't ever just see the cast members... happy. They're under the stress of near death 24/7, and I honestly don't see how they live every day without panicking. They're robots who don't react or get scared. But you know, if there's never consequences and every baddie just dies, there's really no threat at all...

 

Fairy tale characters doing mundane things their own way is interesting to me, but I guess my attention span isn't short enough for what we get.

 

 

Exactly. The whole thread about Emma enjoying the moments would be more resonant if we could actually see these characters, y'know, enjoying their moments.

Yes. The CS date only counts as half a moment because it was forcibly interrupted by the stupid hand plot.

Edited December 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dani-Ellie]

Exactly. The whole thread about Emma enjoying the moments would be more resonant if we could actually see these characters, y'know, enjoying their moments.

[Curio]

Yes. The CS date only counts as half a moment because it was forcibly interrupted by the stupid hand plot.

 

You know, the more I think about that and the unsatisfying ending for those two during the mid-season finale, the more it pisses me off that we never actually got to see any of their date. That was one of the only canon moments where Emma admitted she forgot about being the savior, and we didn't even get to see her enjoy it! Sure, we saw Hook coming to pick her up and the cute exchange of the rose and her parents pestering her like she's a 16-year-old, but there wasn't anything of actual substance between Emma and Hook. We didn't get to see what in the world those two even talk about when it's not discussing the villain-du-jour, we didn't get to see the walk home where Hook must have offered her his jacket because she was cold, and we don't know if Emma even questioned Hook about his new hand - which feels like it should be kind of a big deal. Did they only have dinner and chat? Did they not do anything else besides eat and talk? Hook was supposed to plan this grand evening, so what...that amounted to just having spaghetti? Did they stop at the marina on the way back and hijack a boat for a quick cruise around the bay? What made that date so good that Emma felt the need to keep Will locked up in a prison cell for crashing it?

 

Also, I just realized a parallel between Robin/Regina and Hook/Emma that I don't know what to make of. When Regina gets her heart restored after being threatened by a villain, she and Robin get to spend a romantic day together drinking wine and having dinner in front of a fireplace. But when Hook gets his heart restored after being threatened by a villain, Emma shoves it back in, they make out for 10 seconds, and then she goes off to have shots with Regina. The two situations are very similar, so it just makes me wonder if the writers did it intentionally to show the differences in how those two relationships are being approached, or if Adam & Eddy didn't even think that far about it.

[Camera One]

This. What's the point of defeating one Big Bad after another if there's nothing satisfying to go for?

 

We will be forced to imagine it ourselves right now since that's what's happening for 6 weeks in Storybrooke.  Too bad we won't see any of it.

Edited December 23, 2014 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Based on those infamous interview quotes (the "that would be boring" and "we couldn't do 40 minutes of kissing) and what we see in the show, it sounds like these writers have a very juvenile view of relationships. It's like the way a sheltered six-year-old plays with Barbie and Ken, where all they do to show they're in love and in a relationship is smash their faces together and make kissy sounds and say "I love you" a lot. They only show us the major turning point moments and the angst, but without any of the regular, day-to-day stuff, the turning points and the angst don't mean much.

 

I'm sure we were supposed to think that Robin having to leave Regina behind was a tragic loss, but since we never saw them do anything but kiss and talk about how much they want to be together, there wasn't anything to mourn. You have to either bring your own baggage or a lot of fanfic to the show to feel much of anything there. I felt like we got a much stronger sense of the relationship between Robin and Marian just with that one conversation between Robin and Will, where we learned what Marian meant to Robin's life.

 

I think one of the best, most meaningful relationship moments ever on this show was the scene where Emma let Hook look at her box of childhood treasures. We could see them learning about each other -- he got insight into her from seeing the things that she valued, and she learned about him by seeing the way he reacted -- and I felt like at the end of the scene they had grown closer together. It even tied into the plot because it led to her discovering Ingrid as her foster mother. Why can't they do more like that?

 

Even if they don't want to show the dinner table conversations or Netflix nights, they could give us hints that these things happened. Hook could be asking Emma for clarifications on the movie they watched the night before as they follow the trail of a villain. Even if they aren't ready to open up about their emotional wounds, they still could have talked about their pasts on their date. You can talk about your work without getting into the painful experiences that led you to that career. Hook could have used the salt and pepper shakers to illustrate his account of a sea battle without getting into how much he misses his brother, or he could have told a story about one of his pirating exploits without getting into how he became a pirate. We just would have needed to come in on the punchline, like, "And then the mayor said, 'But don't you want my daughter, too?'" and show them laughing, and we'd have known they were talking about something before we joined the scene. Or as they approached the apartment, Emma could have been saying, "And there he was, hanging halfway through the window, stuck!" and we'd have had the sense that she was telling him about her job. We don't have to see the whole scene to know that there's been a conversation, but the way they do it, it looks like they only come to life when we're looking.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm sure we were supposed to think that Robin having to leave Regina behind was a tragic loss, but since we never saw them do anything but kiss and talk about how much they want to be together, there wasn't anything to mourn. You have to either bring your own baggage or a lot of fanfic to the show to feel much of anything there. I felt like we got a much stronger sense of the relationship between Robin and Marian just with that one conversation between Robin and Will, where we learned what Marian meant to Robin's life.

 

That was my original problem with Outlaw Queen before Marian came along and it was all sent straight to hell. We only saw them being physical without any real people moments together. They didn't even hardly know much about one another, except that Robin was a widower and Regina had a "bold and audacious" past. I was surprised we never saw them talking with or about Roland, or Regina showing Robin some real world conveniences. With them it was either suggestively flirty or just angst, making them largely superficial.

 

Even their drama is really bad, though. Robin finding out the details of Regina's past and having qualms about it would have suited them much, much better than a resurrected wife Robin doesn't even care about any more. All their angst in 4A was meaningless when you think about it.

 

 

Hook could be asking Emma for clarifications on the movie they watched the night before as they follow the trail of a villain.

 

Emma: "Alright, you want to see how people see you in the real world? We're watching Peter Pan."

 

*afterwards*

 

Hook: "What the bloody hell were they thinking? Was Pan involved in the making of this?"

Edited December 23, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

Joss Whedon spoke up about happy couples being boring, too, but his works don't seem to be rooted as much in an abject lack of object constancy. I don't know if that's editing, writing, or directorial decisions that flesh them out because the actors across the board are really really good.

[Dianthus]

Seems to me the real problem here is that A & E see these characters as playthings, while we see them as 'people.' What's more, we decide to invite these people into our living rooms on a fairly frequent basis.

For the most part, I enjoy having the gang from OUaT over (especially Hook - and a lot of that has to do with Colin's acting choices), but they insist on dragging along this whiney, narcissistic bi-otch who can't stop making everything about her and ragging on the décor.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Joss Whedon spoke up about happy couples being boring, too, but his works don't seem to be rooted as much in an abject lack of object constancy. I don't know if that's editing, writing, or directorial decisions that flesh them out because the actors across the board are really really good.

I agree happy couples can be boring. What I really want is just the meat of relationships and how they tick. I want to learn about the similarities a couple shares and if they do anything together between magic duels. I want to know if there's something outside the crypt sex and the tearful goodbyes. Just mentioning what they do in passing would even be adequate. 

 

It's apparent A&E have no intention of exploring what fairy tale characters do on Saturday nights.

Edited December 24, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

Joss Whedon spoke up about happy couples being boring, too, but his works don't seem to be rooted as much in an abject lack of object constancy. I don't know if that's editing, writing, or directorial decisions that flesh them out because the actors across the board are really really good.

I'll be the first to admit I have issues with Mr. Pain-is-Good-I-Know-What-You-Need, but most of the secondary characters on Buffy had a purpose (i.e., Xander's her Heart, Spike's her Inner Darkness). Metaphor may not be the ultimate form of communication known to mankind, but it was fairly well-used to explore Buffy's coming of age. Knowing Jane E. was part of Buffy's writing team (and one of the creators of Warehouse 13), I wonder what happened to her? 

[Shanna Marie]

Joss Whedon spoke up about happy couples being boring, too, but his works don't seem to be rooted as much in an abject lack of object constancy. I don't know if that's editing, writing, or directorial decisions that flesh them out because the actors across the board are really really good.

For me, it's not about whether the couple is happy, but whether they're interesting. With Whedon's stuff, you knew why the couple was together because you saw them interacting. You saw the small moments -- the dinners, the conversations, etc. -- and so it tore your heart out even more when things went horribly wrong. It doesn't take massive amounts of screen time to get the effect, either, just a few key moments. One thing his shows were good about was seeming to catch the action in midstream. Instead of feeling like you're hearing the director shout "Action" and seeing the characters spring to life, you felt like you wandered into a scene that was already happening, picking up just before the plot-critical stuff began. You saw just enough before the plot to believe that the characters had lives you didn't get to see other than a glimpse of. That's what this show lacks. They don't even pretend that the characters ever have normal lives -- and when they do, they draw attention to it, like the scene of Emma and David putting together the crib. We couldn't just see them having a normal moment before Regina showed up to suggest magic lessons to Emma. No, they had to talk about how they were having a normal moment.

 

Emma: "Alright, you want to see how people see you in the real world? We're watching Peter Pan."

Hee! I was thinking that as we join Hook and Emma while they're tracking a villain through the woods ...

 

Hook: I still don't see the point of pirates electing a king. The entire point of being a pirate is that you don't have to answer to a king.

Emma: Really? That was what you found hard to believe about that movie? Not all that going back and forth to the other world and Calypso and Davy Jones, and all that?

Hook: Love, how many times have you traveled between realms on my ship? Hey, isn't that {villain of the arc}?

 

I want to see Hook learn about some technology or gadget and really be happy about it.

I'm still pissed that we didn't get to see the scene in which Emma presented him with his very own talking phone and tried to teach him how to use it, and his first time to use it -- both the first time he tried placing a call and the first time he had to answer a call. I feel robbed that the first time we saw him with a cell phone, it was apparently already an established fact.

 

I wonder if Emma put the same tracking software on his phone that she has on Henry's.

[YaddaYadda]

I find they have a gold mine with these couples that are just kind of opposite.  We got to see Belle discover cheese burgers and iced tea which was sort of neat.  She's one of the characters that never got the download (I'm not sure if she got it with her Lacey persona), but it was interesting to see her form this sort of friendship with Ruby and being sort of guided by her.

 

I thought they somewhat regressed Hook regarding phones.  Last season when he was locked in the trunk of Rumple's car, he asked Zelena (sarcastically) if she's ever heard of a telephone and I think most of us were like "Hook knows about phones!  He probably used one even!"  

 

They should have a support group with the characters who didn't have the World without Magic download.  Aurora's devil box and Hook's talking phones and even Robin who lives in the woods still, I mean has he ever heard of a bathroom and plumbing?  This guy went into the world knowing only slightly more than Marian who is another who has no clue.

[jhlipton]

Meghan Ory has nothing going on right now. They could have easily brought her back for this season. Not to mention Jamie Chung (Mulan) is also available.

 

 She was in Intelligence, but that was cancelled. The only oither thing I see her in is a "web movie" due out next year. She should be fairly available right now.

 

Was there any reason that people who wanted to return to The Enchanted Forest couldn't use the portal to Arandelle and just take a boat ride to the Enchanted Forest?

 

Apparently, the boat ride from Arrandale to Mysthaven (or whatever) is like taking one of the swan rides at Disneyland, except that once every century or so, there will be a storm so large and so sudden and so random that you can't escape it and everyone drowns.

"Consistancy? I am not familiar with that word."

 

You want to know which scene on Breaking Bad was one of the most tense and dramatic? A freaking scene with three characters eating green beans at the dinner table. Inglorious Basterds is filled to the max with its characters having dramatic conversations while doing normal activities like eating in a diner or talking in a movie theater lobby. The Wire showed the normal daily routines of the teenagers, which made the audience connect with them even though they're doing bad things.

One of the best scenes in Reservoir Dogs takes place in a diner -- just a quiet conversation among the gang. But Tarentino put in tiny moments that were clues to each man's personality. Mr. Pink refuses to tip the waitress, showing that he's self-centered and has little sympathy for others. Mr. White gets angry at him and passionately explains why waitresses need tips, showing that he's good-natured and sympathetic. Mr. Blonde jokingly offers to shoot him for not tipping, showing that he's a violent psychopath. Also, notice that when Joe asks the crew which one of them didn't tip, Mr. Orange immediately rats Mr. Pink out — foreshadowing the revelation that he's the rat.

Edited December 25, 2014 by jhlipton

[Shanna Marie]

For me, one of the better dinner table scenes was in the FIrefly episode "Out of Gas." We join the crew as they're sitting around the dinner table, roaring with laughter at a story Book apparently just told (we never hear what the story was). Then they bring out a birthday cake for Simon and admit that they got his birth date from his wanted poster. Before he can blow out the candles, the engines blow. That scene is so warm and human and shows the interactions among the crew, so it's even more wrenching when the disaster on the ship might tear them apart or even kill them all. It's such a contrast with the later crisis.

 

I think that's what Once is missing. There's no baseline for the characters and their relationships. We never see "normal" to contrast it with crisis because it's always a crisis. When things are normal, they talk about how normal this is. We have no sense of what they'd lose if they failed to avert the latest crisis, no sense of what they're really fighting to preserve, no sense of what the relationships are like before they're put under stress. If they never have a quiet moment to just be together, then we don't see why it's so tragic that something's tearing them apart. We came close with Emma and Hook's date, but even with that, the focus was on his hand and the conflict with Will, not what Emma and Hook are like when there's no crisis so that we can see that they'd want to try to find more moments like this.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think that's what Once is missing. There's no baseline for the characters and their relationships. We never see "normal" to contrast it with crisis because it's always a crisis. When things are normal, they talk about how normal this is.

The Mary Margaret and Emma conversations in S1 totally nailed this. I can't tell you how much I miss them together. Snow especially seems like a totally different character now, regardless of the curse breaking.

Edited December 25, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Featherhat]

I've heard it a lot from writers of different shows "writing happy people is boring, even if the audience says they want it, they hate happy couples!" etc. And that might be true to an extent, but that's not the same as simply always watching them wash the dishes. In 1a I was pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed Snowing in the Fairybacks, they took an often trite "True Love" type story mixed it around without being too cliché about that either, managing to show exactly why the curse was such a tragedy on two dynamic people. Katherine also gets multiple layers and moments of interest when the temptation was there to show her as a complete villain in Storybrooke even if she wasn't in EF.

 

Since then they've very much floundered with relationships having anything but wallpaper depth. It's not enough that OQ are declared to be True Love by Tink if we never see that actually happen despite "obstacles" (his wife and kid). It would be like having to take on faith that Snowing were great back in the EF which justifies (or doesn't) their current situation without ever seeing why we should root for it. Beginnings of relationships generally aren't the "boring" part even in the real world.

 

 They're under the stress of near death 24/7, and I honestly don't see how they live every day without panicking. They're robots who don't react or get scared. But you know, if there's never consequences and every baddie just dies, there's really no threat at all...

 

I think a lot of people living under the strain of near death all the time find ways to cope or else they just fold (or they fold and get back up again which would also make for interesting TV). They are often the ones most likely to grab five minutes for a bit of personal snuggling and call it a success, it's the reason "gallows humour" exists, but sometimes these characters do seem to go from crisis to crisis with no real emotion what so ever.

[Faemonic]

All right! I've finally watched Heroes and Villains and are you kidding me with how they handled the Marian-Regina-Robin triangle?? Marian was being a very reasonable person! Robin Hood was saying that Roland would see it as a complicated mess, and I really think that Robin Hood was super wrong and just projecting his own worldview on his small child in a way that's really not healthy, but if Robin Hood saw it that way, and viewers of Robin Hood's age saw it that way, then that means it's interesting to stay with how Wee Roland grows up with 50-50 split of property or whoever pays whoever else's alimony, and partial custody, and Regina being the good stepmum. The awesome amazingly brilliant stepmom who has plumbing and heating and indoors seriously how could they let that adorable little boy grow up in the middle of the woods he's going to die of hypothermia.

 

Nope! Gotta keep the soul mates apart!

 

Regina wouldn't even consider giving Marian false memories, documentation, and enough money to make her way alone or, I don't know, with Katherine who was supposed to go to Boston to study law but got kidnapped and drugged instead you know she's gotta be hating her hometown by now. Or Ruby, who nobody's ever doing anything with anymore. All three of them! They'll be like the Un-Charmed sisters! They'd balance the world versus the Queens of Darkness, if only someone could remind them of their awesomeness!

 

Nope, not with all of the Merry Men and Mulan who is supposed to also be there. They could all have false memories of being Survivalist Ex-Greenpeace Eco-Terrorist Faction. I could be a show all its own with Social Political Commentary and it would be awesome!

 

Nope. Just Marian, Robin Hood, and Roland...to make Regina miserable even though her life isn't particularly difficult like wasn't Henry her happy ending a while ago and hasn't Henry and Regina both had more scenes together than Emma and Henry?

 

 
Apparently, the boat ride from Arrandale to Mysthaven (or whatever) is like taking one of the swan rides at Disneyland, except that once every century or so, there will be a storm so large and so sudden and so random that you can't escape it and everyone drowns.

 

You seriously had me going there, but I like your explanation much better than how the show just ignored everything about who wanted to stay in the Enchanted Forest and who wanted to stay in Storybrooke, and don't get a say because they're not any royal family. Won't somebody, anybody, think of the peasants???
 

[Amerilla]

The aversion to showing anything like a character's private life is so evident just in the way they've built sets over the years. Only Snowing has a proper home, and that's largely because MM's loft set was built in as part of the story in S1. Emma doesn't have a place of her own yet

and apparently won't any time soon, since Adam and Eddy don't have the budget/don't want to waste $$ on a set they're going to use for two one-minute scenes a season

. Regina's "home" is clearly a rental, as is Gold's...which we haven't seen the inside of since early S2, and even then was clearly a different house than the one shown in S1. Henry and Gold both have rarely-seen 'bedroom' sets, but just about every major non-CGI interior in the show is public space - the diner, the shop, the mayor's office, the sheriff's office, the library.

 

The absurdity of it really comes to the fore when there are relationships involved. Poor Belle has to spend the first (and probably only) untroubled night of her marriage like a hobo, sleeping on an uncomfortable antique sofa in a house they just broke into. I'm surprised she wasn't shown huddled up under a copy of the Storybrooke Mirror.

 

Since then, she's either pulled offscreen all-nighters babysitting at the Snowing Hovel, or passed out on the little bed in the back of Gold's shop - which is just the way you'd expect a loving couple who have spent years separated by the cruel hand of fate (*cough* Regina *cough*) would act in their married life. She's even packing her bags for her honeymoon there (further reinforcing my belief that the gal's copious and slightly random wardrobe is culled from the racks at the pawn shop).

 

Regina - the Evil Queen, a woman who can just "poof" anything into existence - is reduced to shagging Robin in the family mausoleum.

 

Emma is performing heart surgery with Hook in the hallway of Granny's...completely sanitary, I'm sure, and totally logical that they'd do it there, rather than Hook's supposed room at Granny's B&B right next door - lodging we only really know about via Adam announcement per Twitter.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Amerilla

[YaddaYadda]

I think what was frustrating about the heart storyline, is that it seemed to be setting up something big for Hook and Emma, only to have it really just a minor part of Rumple's 4a arc.  Sure Emma thought something was wrong, but, if anything, it showed her feelings weren't "all" in yet to the point of getting on a horse and riding to him to save the day.  We've yet to see Emma actually prioritize Hook in a crisis.

 

From the Spoilers Thread.  

 

I agree there was some sort of set up that Emma would be playing a huge role in restoring Hook's heart.  After 406 (the Belle-centric), we knew that she would be playing some kind of hero role, we just didn't know what she would be doing exactly since Hook's heart was still firmly planted in his chest.

 

But yeah, the set up was there, with Emma sensing that something was off with Hook and his behavior.  Personally, I thought what made the whole thing really fall flat was that emotional goodbye scene they had before the spell of shattered sight.  I mean he goes to see her and he wanted to see her one last time because he believes he is going to die and she is a bit of an emotional mess and she's not the type of person who allows herself to be that way, but with him she does which shows all the importance of his place in her life, if she's not in love with him, she at the very least cares very deeply about him and she is worried she might not see him again.  

 

So for me, that's when the whole thing hit a high and then we had known for a while through BTS that Hook was not there for the reunion after the spell was broken and after he lost his heart, I thought that was the reason he wasn't there (which is somewhat true since Rumple summoned him regarding Henry or at least I'm assuming he did).  

 

But then, that's where it fell flat.  Hook isn't there for the reunion after this whole emotional goodbye, but he is standing there at the town line with the Frozen gang in front of the ice wall.  So after that goodbye scene where he thinks he's going to his death and never see the woman he loves ever again, he's back the next day as Rumple's spy like nothing happened when really, he should have just been missing or just hanging out with Rumple until it was time for him to be dispatched.

 

The frustration with this is everything they didn't show and how things got dropped.  So regarding Emma coming to Hook's rescue, I'm guessing there might be something in 4B.  I'd like to think that Emma believes Hook when he says he's a survivor and he can take care of himself (even when it's clear that he can't do that against someone as powerful as Rumple).  411 was all about Rumple and Belle and that completely backward, ridiculous, unhealthy relationship they have (and Regina's pain that everyone had to talk about).

 

This was also in the spoiler thread, but I guess I can just put it up here, the voice message will not come into play as per A&E.  How long have we wanted Hook to come clean to Emma about what Rumple was up to, the deal he struck with him and when he finally does, there's no pay off for that either, where she actually knows because Anna had to be the one to solve that riddle for our dimwitted heroes.

Edited December 27, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[YaddaYadda]

It's always the set up for these things though.  They could have easily have had Hook tell Emma about the hat and then work together to thwart Rumple before he took Hook's heart, but then Emma would know not to go to Rumple to help her get rid of her magic, so she could not find out about the hat after all because Rumple needed to cross that line where he was willing to suck someone like Emma who also happens to be his grandson's biological mother.  I'm sure Hook never thought Rumple would go that far, but again, Rumple is the same man who crushed Milah's heart and she was his son's mother, so you can't exactly put anything passed him.

 

Hook's "integrity" for lack of better words was sacrificed for the plot which really sucks.  But then Snow's character integrity has also been sacrificed many times over, so while I'd like to be able to roll with it without batting an eyelash, it makes me sort of angry nonetheless that the stories are not character driven.

[Faemonic]

This bothers me so much. Rumple was in possession of that stupid hat. Hook knew that the hat existed and saw it work with the Apprentice. Did it never occur to him that Rumple might use the hat on Emma - I know he later agreed not to do so but are you really going to trust Rumple?

I can only guess that Hook had an incorrect idea of exactly how much about Rumple has changed. Coward, yes. Liar, yes. Crocodile-skin vest...only under extenuating circumstances, apparently. Force choking people? Nah, that was so last week and 30-odd years ago. Dungeon capture and torture like Robin Hood had to endure? Well, if Robin himself isn't worried about that happening again, then...

 

If Hook thought that, "She's the mother of your grandson!" would be a good argument to the murderer of Mr. Gold's son's actual mother, then Hook might have thought that The Dark One had changed that much.

 

Regina doesn't seem to be at all useful to Rumple anymore, and the way that she isolated herself after Roland's baby-momma drama would have been the perfect cover. Regina's also the most powerful Light Magic user in all the realms. Why didn't Rumple even consider hatting Regina? Whatever it was (the writers' love of Regina aside), because Rumple didn't go that way, Rumple could evidently be trusted that much...and since that doesn't even make any sense, then it makes as much sense that Hook trusted that Rumple wouldn't try to hat Emma--Emma, who did rescue Neal, and whom Rumple did mentor for like an hour on his deathbed.

 

I was even appalled that Rumple would try that, considering that Ingrid had an investment in Emma and Rumple needed Ingrid to something something something I don't know, and considering that people would kind of notice if Emma disappeared, and ask questions, and all that.

 

Bottom line: Both Rumple and Hook had as much understanding of character relationships as the writer(s) of that episode. Which works out neatly, if terribly when applied to suspension of disbelief.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Faemonic

[Camera One]

The other predicted outcome of this storyline back when "The Apprentice" aired was that Emma would find out Hook had lied to her and had stupidly blackmailed Rumple behind her back, and she would have been furious with him and they might have broken up for awhile or Emma's walls would have gone back up.  Would people rather have seen that?  If they had used that as the pretext of Emma's powers getting out of control because she was lied to by a man she fully opened up her heart to and openly dated for the first time in decades out of her own volition without false memories?  If Rumple had followed through on the video blackmail?

 

Hook getting his heart controlled by Rumple seemed to nullify all that.  Emma wasn't angry in the least because Hook almost died.  

And A&E said in an interview that Hook had suffered enough (this isn't exactly a spoiler but just in case).

Edited December 27, 2014 by Camera One

[Faemonic]

The other predicted outcome of this storyline back when "The Apprentice" aired was that Emma would find out Hook had lied to her and had stupidly blackmailed Rumple behind her back, and she would have been furious with him and they might have broken up for awhile or Emma's walls would have gone back up.  Would people rather have seen that?

YES. Yes, I would rather have seen that, because Emma would have been emotional. The way it went, it was like one moment she's in with the tearful goodbye kisser, and the next several moments he's offscreen she's like, "What the hell is a 'Killian'?"

 

Hook getting his heart controlled by Rumple seemed to nullify all that.  Emma wasn't angry in the least because Hook almost died. 

And A&E said in an interview that Hook had suffered enough (this isn't exactly a spoiler but just in case).

Uh-oh. That means they're going to Regina-fy Hook in 4B-5, aren't they. Soon the sad ayebrows over bright blue puppy eyes and the throb in his voice when he's grief-stricken is going to be so devalued, just like Regina's tears and Rumple's "oh alas but I'm a scared wee peasant" tragedy face.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Faemonic

[Shanna Marie]

I watched Frozen with my parents last night, and it reminded me of how much speculation there was over the summer about who would have their heart frozen and have to be saved with an Act of True Love, and it turns out that they didn't even really go there. Marian, a very secondary character, was the one who got frozen, and she was saved in spite of her husband's indifference, no love involved. They did the role reversal of Elsa and Anna, with Elsa's refusing to attack Anna apparently saving Anna from the Shattered Sight spell, and then Anna's love for Ingrid turned Ingrid around, but I'd been hoping for some of our regular cast to have something involving the Act of True Love or a frozen heart. We did get Hook's heart removed, which was similar, but even though Emma noticed that something was wrong, she didn't do anything about it and he was saved by Belle.

 

So, basically, they entirely skipped the element of the movie that had some depth to it, just skimming over it with the guest characters instead of using it as a turning point for the regular characters. But God forbid we change the status quo for more than five minutes.

[KingOfHearts]

So, basically, they entirely skipped the element of the movie that had some depth to it, just skimming over it with the guest characters instead of using it as a turning point for the regular characters. But God forbid we change the status quo for more than five minutes. 

 

 

This is what I was thinking would happen too. Of all the people Ingrid could have froze, it was the character with the least amount of consequence. I was really anticipating Hook being the one to get it. If Marian had been alive and well this whole time, I believe the Outlaw Queen drama would have been a bit juicier.

[Shanna Marie]

If Marian had been alive and well this whole time, I believe the Outlaw Queen drama would have been a bit juicier.

And less icky. As it was, her husband didn't bother to rekindle a relationship with her before going all in with his girlfriend.

 

If they wanted us to pull for Outlaw Queen, they pretty much did absolutely everything wrong (unless you're a huge Regina devotee who thinks she deserves all good things just because):

Marian was missing from Robin's life because of what Regina did to her -- if they didn't want the ick, they could have rescued her from somewhere else, like maybe finding her in Rumple's dungeon

Robin and Regina had only been together for a couple of days before Marian returned and apparently didn't sleep together until after Marian was back and under the spell (his remark about how long it had been since he "slept" that well) -- why not have had them in an established relationship during the missing year or at least sleeping together before Marian returned?

Marian had a huge impact on Robin's life and helped make him the man he was and sacrificed everything to be with him -- which makes him a jerk for being so easily turned away from her instead of being overjoyed at her return. If we were supposed to cheer for Outlaw Queen, why not have it have been an arranged marriage they made the best of or a marriage that was on the rocks when she disappeared?

Robin didn't even try to rekindle any kind of relationship with his wife and the mother of his child, instead being so obsessed with his brand-new girlfriend that he couldn't be bothered to stir up enough love to save his wife's life -- gee, couldn't he have at least been torn instead of being all "I choose you!" the moment Marian is brought out from under the curse?

 

But as it is, Robin starts cheating on the wife who changed his life and gave up everything to be with him after she miraculously returns from being missing/dead, with the woman responsible for her being missing, with whom he's just had a couple of makeout sessions over the past few days and barely knows. That has to be some kind of new all-time low for a man who's supposed to be a hero. This is Lifetime movie material, though in a Lifetime movie, Marian would be the heroine and Robin and Regina would be the villains.

[KAOS Agent]

 

If Marian had been alive and well this whole time, I believe the Outlaw Queen drama would have been a bit juicier.

 

Not really though. Marian took the same opinion most rational people had. She didn't need to die, all she needed to do was divorce Robin. While I think it was most likely painful for her, she wanted to be chosen. When she was not, she would have walked away and Regina and Robin would have been fine. So Regina irrationally freaking out and enslaving Sydney, planning to kill Marian and blaming the book was all so unnecessary. In addition to once again making white magic wielding, "heroic" Regina completely nuts and incomprehensibly dumb, they wasted everyone's time and made Robin into the biggest jackass ever. Good move, writers.

[YaddaYadda]

It's interesting the regression of the characters regarding the book.  I've been re-watching S3 and the whole time, it's all about how this is destiny and how evil is made and not born and how people can change and make their own happy endings and there's more.  Knowing the plots in advance actually allows to catch on to these things that I wouldn't have paid attention to otherwise.  So I'm not sure what the book plot is about other than some sort of race to the bottom between the heroes and the villains.  I do think the outcome will be the same, that you can take route A or route B, if Regina was meant to end up with Robin, then it would have happened regardless, it's just that taking route A would have taken her less time to find her happy ending.  

 

she wanted to be chosen

I really love Marian even more even though we don't really know the character at all other than what Robin said about her to Will.  It's interesting how Belle and Marian who never met each other have so much in common and how they both used that exact sentence.  

 

Feeling and knowing you're worthy of so much more than what you're given and not seeing things through rose colored glasses is a great thing.  Even that awkward scene where Marian is feeding the ducks with Roland, she seemed just content because she was having a good time with her son.  She could have been frowning because Robin and Regina were sitting together, she could have been upset about that, but she was with her kid and she seemed just happy with that.  Contrast that with Regina who was sulking and who refused to see Henry (thereby making him miserable) over losing the man ordained by fairy dust...

 

In the end, Regina did show some level of maturity (more than Robin at least) at the town line, but seriously, love isn't supposed to be selfish and Robin was willing to throw Marian under the bus by sending her over in a world she doesn't know nor understand.  So cannot get on the OQ train the same way I can't get on the RB train because of everything that is so unbelievably wrong with that relationship.  

 

Meanwhile, Snowing and Emma/Hook are at the opposite end of the spectrum on this.

 

YES. Yes, I would rather have seen that, because Emma would have been emotional. The way it went, it was like one moment she's in with the tearful goodbye kisser, and the next several moments he's offscreen she's like, "What the hell is a 'Killian'?"

I wonder how much they think this stuff through.  I'm sort of getting vibes of S3 when it comes to Emma regarding Hook anyway.  

[Rumsy4]

While discussing the issue of Cursed Consent in the Social Issues thread, I realized that the writers managed to keep Belle "pure" through the curse. Rumple was clearly the first man Belle loved, and she had obviously never been with anyone before or after. Even after Rumpel sent her away, she never got into a relationship with another person. She was almost immediately imprisoned by Regina in the EF, and spent 28 years in Storybrooke in a hospital ward as an amnesiac. When she got the "Lacey" reboot, Rumple made sure she wasn't going to be with another man, even if it meant beating the sh*t out of the person who dared to approach her. When Rumple "died", Belle put all her efforts into resurrecting him. Therefore, Belle has remained faithful to Rumple through it all, both by wish and circumstance. Considering Rumple's reaction to Milah running away from him, I find this very interesting. I also very much doubt Belle is going to start dating someone after banishing her husband. The writers will eventually reunite the couple, and in the meantime, Belle (and Rumple) will remain unattached.

 

On the other hand, both Snow and Charming have had extra-marital relationships when under the curse (Whale and Kathryn). Even Emma was in a relationship of dubious consent with Walsh in the missing year. Poor Graham was Regina's sex slave in Storybrooke and the EF, and was killed for breaking up with her. Marian got cheated on when she was in a cursed coma. And we were led to think that Ruby was promiscuous in Storybrooke in her cursed persona. So, why the difference when it comes to Belle? 

[The Cake is a Pie]

I don't know if there's any significance to Belle's lack of relationship experience other than the writers just aren't interested in writing any relationships (romantic or platonic) for her outside of Rumple. It's not unrealistic to the real world, though. There are plenty of people who only have one significant relationship in their lives. She could just be a "one and done" type.

 

ETA: The writers stuck her in a cell for 28 years instead of giving her any kind of alternate Storybrooke life, then had no interest in exploring any repercussions and psychological issues with being imprisoned for 28+ years in solitude, so I really don't think they have any idea what to do with Belle outside of Rumple's story.

Edited December 29, 2014 by The Cake is a Pie

[Rumsy4]

Belle's definitely a one and done kind, but considering the number of curses and spells that have hit everyone and taken consent away from people, Belle's enforced faithfulness to Rumple does stand out.

[OnceUponAJen]

While Belle may be one and done, Lacey definitely didn't strike me that way.

[Mari]

so I really don't think they have any idea what to do with Belle outside of Rumple's story.

I know there was talk and rumors that the writers were surprised at Belle's popularity in the first few episodes she was in, and she was kept simply because of that popularity.  I'm unsure how true that is, but it would explain some of their extreme disinterest in writing for her.

 

 

 

While Belle may be one and done, Lacey definitely didn't strike me that way.

Which I find extra skeevy, since Belle didn't have any choice about that.  While I don't see why Belle shouldn't consider dating other people, it's yet another gross thing that the personality spell is responsible for.  If Belle's going to date other people, Belle should make that decision, not someone rewriting her personality.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I know there was talk and rumors that the writers were surprised at Belle's popularity in the first few episodes she was in, and she was kept simply because of that popularity.  I'm unsure how true that is, but it would explain some of their extreme disinterest in writing for her.

I'm pretty convinced that's what happened. She was labeled as a guest star in Skin Deep, then quickly put on hold for another date. I'm not sure if they originally intended for her to return in A Land Without Magic, or sometime after that. I personally wish they would have kept her in the asylum a bit longer and put Rumple's revenge against Regina further down the line where it would matter more. The whole wraith thing was just a one-off and quickly forgotten about.

 

I find it funny that Jefferson knew actually where Regina was keeping her and the code to get in. He must have had lots of time to spy on people.

Edited December 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

The writers do the "brainstorm for next season" thing when they finish writing a season, which would be in about March or April, I think? So when they brainstormed season 2, they did not take Belle into consideration, because Emilie was signed up as a regular for another show (I believe it was called Americana). In May, the show wasn't picked up, so Emilie became available. So when they originally thought about how S2 would go, they did not take Belle being there into consideration, and it shows.

[KingOfHearts]

You know I was just thinking that it's pretty bad that Rumple and Belle got married and divorced over the span of a week. It's a little sickening to watch the Beauty and the Beast dance now. Tells a lot about that relationship.

Edited January 3, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

Considering they broke into the house they were honeymooning in and Rumpel started it off by freezing his wife so that he could cover up his lie with the dagger and murder of Zelena, where did people think that relationship was heading? And let's not forget the honeymoon started at the cemetery.

[YaddaYadda]

Anything to do with Rumple is creepy. Belle deserves leaps and bounds better than him. I wish they hadn't gone the way of true love for her and done what they did with Hook, Emmaand even Regina where Milah, Neal and Daniel are the first love, the one that came along when they needed someone like that really badly. They still love those people, but they've ultimately moved on from them and onto something that's more complete (I don't know about Robin, still a douche and fairy dust ordained love).

Belle is going to go back to Rumple eventually even though it's the worst thing that can happen to her. A six weeks (or longertime jump) is a bit reassuring in her case because it means we might have dodged the pregnancy bullet.