Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

YaddaYadda · January 9, 2015

It's really sad because I pretty much live on hope when it comes to this show. I really, really hope that they will be addressing the whole hand thing as the season keeps progressing. I mean that one deal nearly cost him his life at the end of the day. His and Emma's issues are similar as well. You cannot be building all these parallels to just forget all about it and move on to the next shiny toy.

Oh wait! Shiny toy it is...

But seriously, Captain Hook, the overconfident swashbuckler, cocky as fuck...*gasp* has self-esteem, self-loathing issues and he hides behind innuendo, sarcasm and snark. They have to go back to the whole hand thing.

They build really good things and then it all falls flat. It's like opening the oven while baking a cake, it collapses onto itself.

RadioGirl27 · January 9, 2015

I actually rewatched the date episode the other day and I was really disappointed, more than the first time. The date wasn't there because they are interested in Hook and Emma as a couple (or as individuals), it was there to reintroduce the feud between Hook and Rumple. That's why we didn't see almost anything of the date or why Emma didn't react to the hand. It was not the theme of the episode (even if they sold it as the date episode).

Edited January 9, 2015 by RadioGirl27

Amerilla · January 9, 2015

The date wasn't there because they are interested in Hook and Emma as a couple (or as individuals), it was there to reintroduce the feud between Hook and Rumple.

This is why I always side-eye it when people start nattering about Rumbelle being just "fan service." Like Captain Swan, the show and its publicists use fandom to chum the waters, but functionally, it's used to move the plot whatever way they happen to want it to go in the moment for the dominent characters, and shoved on the back-burner when it isn't needed.

Not that I thought it was going to be something more, but it's clear that Rumpel and Belle's insta-marriage was simply to set up the pins for Dramatic Breakup #8422 (which then lines them back up for Dramatic Reunion #8423 down the road). During 4a, they spent almost no time together (pretty remarkable given that this is the first unbroken stretch of time they've been in the same place with their minds and memories intact since mid-S2), haven't had a single on-screen conversation about the events of S3 (even though the showrunners insist that his current behavior is driven by those events), and this means that Dramatic

Breakup was beautifully performed, but doesn't stand up to scrutiny or make much sense.

At least the show is consistant. For some reason, it popped to mind yesterday that 3b told us that Rumpel spent almost a year with Bae and his consciousness living inside his body and his own brain, to the point where it drove him mad. That's a pretty big plot point, and even in fantasy genre, a unique setup for a parent-child relationship, for a father-son relationship, for a father-son relationship divided for so long by time and space, and for a situation that ended in the death of a child. And since 3x15, it has never once been referenced in the show.

We have no idea how Rumpel felt about what happened, of what he might have learned about Bae from the process, IF he learned anything about Bae from the process, and clearly it didn't have any moderating effect of Rumpel's outlook. The writers saw it as a Shocking! Twist! without noticing the profoundly emotional implications of what they had done. It's shameful.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Amerilla

YaddaYadda · January 9, 2015

This is interesting. Since Neal and Rumple shared a body and everything else, did they also have access to each others' memories? Of course we will never know about this stuff, but Rumple could have found out how Neal lived, the time he spent in Neverland, on the Jolly Roger, when he went back to the Land without Magic and so on, while Neal would have gotten to see his father rip his mother's heart out and crush it and his time as the Dark One and every crappy thing he's ever done.

If Neal was still alive, I doubt he would have wanted anything to do with Rumple.

I actually rewatched the date episode the other day and I was really disappointed, more than the first time. The date wasn't there because they are interested in Hook and Emma as a couple (or as individuals), it was there to reintroduce the feud between Hook and Rumple. That's why we didn't see almost anything of the date or why Emma didn't react to the hand. It was not the theme of the episode (even if they sold it as the date episode).

And Hook's heart being torn out had nothing to do with Emma or Hook and everything to do with Rumple and Belle being a hero and banishing her crazy ass husband out of town.

The hand was a plot point, the date was a plot point, the heart was a plot point.

I still don't know what the voice mail Hook left was exactly other than Rumple seeing that Hook had called Emma twice already.

scenicbyway · January 9, 2015

This is interesting. Since Neal and Rumple shared a body and everything else, did they also have access to each others' memories? Of course we will never know about this stuff, but Rumple could have found out how Neal lived, the time he spent in Neverland, on the Jolly Roger, when he went back to the Land without Magic and so on, while Neal would have gotten to see his father rip his mother's heart out and crush it and his time as the Dark One and every crappy thing he's ever done.

If Neal was still alive, I doubt he would have wanted anything to do with Rumple.

And Hook's heart being torn out had nothing to do with Emma or Hook and everything to do with Rumple and Belle being a hero and banishing her crazy ass husband out of town.

The hand was a plot point, the date was a plot point, the heart was a plot point.

I still don't know what the voice mail Hook left was exactly other than Rumple seeing that Hook had called Emma twice already.

The voice mail was for the viewers, it was there to reinforce or introduce the idea to the viewer that Hook is indeed in love with Emma and would do anything for her. Since we weren't about to see them discussing their feelings with each other, this was a way to do that for the viewer without actually moving their story forward. We saw a bit of this from Emma when she was taunting Regina with the fact that she and Hook were happy together. Emma's never told Hook she's happy they are together and Hook's never told her he's trying to be a better man for her. By having scenes alone or with other people the writers are telling us they are happy, in love, etc. with out having to move the relationship along by having them declare it to each other.

YaddaYadda · January 9, 2015

The voice mail was for the viewers, it was there to reinforce or introduce the idea to the viewer that Hook is indeed in love with Emma and would do anything for her.

This is my main issue. We already know that. Hook didn't give up his ship for shits and giggles. Them wanting to explain Emma's feelings is one thing, because well (sadly)...Emma...walls...Emma!! Hook willing to sacrifice for her? Not exactly new.

KingOfHearts · January 9, 2015

This is my main issue. We already know that. Hook didn't give up his ship for shits and giggles. Them wanting to explain Emma's feelings is one thing, because well (sadly)...Emma...walls...Emma!! Hook willing to sacrifice for her? Not exactly new.

Sometimes it's like A&E believe the audience is comprised of idiots. If they want you to know something, they'll beat you over the head with it until you bleed. Then when you notice something they don't want you to notice, they'll quickly sweep it under the rug.

This is why I always side-eye it when people start nattering about Rumbelle being just "fan service." Like Captain Swan, the show and its publicists use fandom to chum the waters, but functionally, it's used to move the plot whatever way they happen to want it to go in the moment for the dominent characters, and shoved on the back-burner when it isn't needed.

I think it's both a fan service and a plot device - two birds, one stone. With A&E, most of the couples on this show (minus Snowing) are catered to what believe shippers like, but above all where they want their plot to go. The CS date is a perfect example of this. You can count Swan Queen in there too.

Edited January 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts

Faemonic · January 9, 2015

the whole set-up of fairy-tale princess/teenage daughter in pink going on first date with not-bad Bad Boy as Mommy and Daddy snap pictures was cringe-inducing simply because the story hasn't done anything to really support it.

I sort of agree and disagree. I feel like the story has put the elements in there, but I'm making the bonds into compounds when that's not my job. So, I can see either Snow picking Emma's outfit and doing her hair, or Emma choosing to dress like a retro teenager on prom night for the parents she never had...but when it becomes word of JMo, Castro, and maybe the episode writers that Emma dressed that way because Hook brings it out in her

then I'm just like, "Whut. Whut no sense is this." But if I include their input in addition to what showed on the show itself, then apparently that's what it is. And obviously I don't think the story has done anything to really support it.

I get that wardrobe maybe wanted to give a visual contrast to normally hard-edged Emma wanting to feel soft and pretty on a date, but there are a million choices between tight bailbondsperson bait dress and that baby pink thing.

It would have been funny if Emma'd gone for one of those steampunk frock coats maybe even paired with boots, breeches, a ruffled collar, gloves, pocket watch, monocle...and Hook shows up in his 80s biker jacket all, okay, we might have bonded over time travel but this is ridiculous.

The hook is an asset in a violent life full of fighting, but when it comes to relationships, it would make things difficult.

Unless there's another attachment that she'd prefer.

Much as I enjoyed the subversion of the fandom sentiment that Hook is only a bad person because of the hook attached to him...what was offered instead doesn't make much sense, even though I could personally suspend disbelief enough to accept Hook wanting his hand back, especially to meet his idea of the perfect guy for Emma... able-bodied, with a fashion sense that matches her world, who reflects back and validates your emotions but not to the point of ever letting you wallow uselessly (although he usually did that), who pulls the chair out, who holds the door...and I can bet that if Emma were to criticize his lack of professional track or his constant 5 o' clock shadow he would move hell and high water to line up to her expectations of that too. Fortunately, Emma isn't hypercritical like that. I have let loose furious rants at her displays of disablism (all two of them), but I remember there was this gif of that little stinger from Emma on Tumblr captioned by something like, "Please don't let that be what moved you to make that very bad deal with The Dark One, Killy..." And I was actually surprised by the direct connection. Even though we'll never know if that really is or isn't the cause, because this show, it does make sense. But I still took it as just a specific move towards a general theme of Hook wanting to make An Impression.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Faemonic

Mari · January 9, 2015

Sometimes it's like A&E believe the audience is comprised of idiots. If they want you to know something, they'll beat you over the head with it until you bleed. Then when you notice something they don't want you to notice, they'll quickly sweep it under the rug.

You know, this might be why they were shocked at people noticing and commenting on the not-very-subtext of the Rumple/Belle relationship; if they think their viewership is so dumb they don't even remember the text, in their minds we wouldn't be capable of noticing subtext--even subtext that's pretty much loud and screamy and not very sub at all.

Shanna Marie · January 10, 2015

The reason I'm inclined to think that the writers are oblivious to the real problems they've created in the relationship between Emma and Snow is that the problem they solve, the problem they spotlight, and the problem they actually show are all totally different things in that whole "Emma's parents fear her magic" plot. They resolved it with Snow handing over Snowflake and saying "We trust you." But it didn't seem like Emma really had an issue with her parents fearing her magic. She wanted to get rid of it because she feared it. She was out of control and hurting people she loved. She ran off not because the word "monster" was used and her mother scolded her but because she blew up a building and nearly killed her father and boyfriend with a lamppost. Fearing her during all this wasn't any kind of betrayal or lack of trust. It was common sense because she wasn't in control. They knew she didn't want to do these things (and we still don't know if Ingrid juiced her somehow because she's been far more upset than that without losing control so violently). Up until she lost control, the only person in her life who reacted negatively to her having magic was Neal. Her parents were totally fine with it and even sacrificed her father's heart to cast the curse so they could use her magic. So that whole plot line made no sense, but while they were "solving" that, they seem to have completely forgotten that what they showed as the real issue that led to the magic flare-up was the fact that Snow freaked out when Emma brought up what her childhood was like. Even if Snow had very valid reasons for what she did and even if it was the right choice, the fact remains that Emma did grow up alone without any of the benefits Snowflake is going to have, and it's totally unfair to act like Emma has no right to complain or even bring up what her mother did to her. Snow acted like Emma was in the wrong for saying that Snow wasn't really a mother to her, and that's a deep, underlying issue that hasn't been addressed, and I don't have hopes of it ever being addressed because the writers seem to think everything was resolved when Snow trusted Emma with the baby. I mean, really, if Snow was dissatisfied with being a mother to Emma because that wasn't what she wanted in being a mother, how the hell does she think Emma feels about having a mother? I'm pretty sure that having her mother show up when she was 28 and not being there during childhood when she really needed a mother wasn't Emma's ideal.

As for the hand, the date and the blackmail plot, it's a perfect case study in the problems these writers have with setting things up and paying things off. There are some potentially interesting elements there, with Emma overcoming her fears based on her track record with dead boyfriends to ask Hook out, just as he puts himself at risk so he'll be what he thinks is a better man for her. Except him wanting his hand back comes across as something of a whim since we saw no buildup. Emma has made a few remarks that might have hurt him and that might have led him to believe that might be something holding her back, except she asked him out before he got the hand. Or it could have just been that this was the first time he's had a chance and the leverage to get Rumple to do it, but then why didn't he do it earlier when he was at the shop with Elsa (or better, when Belle was there -- if he asked nicely in her presence, how could Rumple have refused while pretending to be a changed man?)? As it was, Hook looks at best stupid or arrogant in thinking that there's no possible risk and at worst inconsiderate for him to go straight from her telling him she can't bear the thought of losing him to him poking the bear and antagonizing Rumple. Maybe it would have worked better if the "I can't lose another boyfriend" conversation had been with Elsa so that he didn't know about her fear and maybe still thought that the hook was a hangup for her. But still, the fact that he felt like he needed to change should have been addressed. In that Alias Hook novel I mentioned on the "other fairy tales" thread, Hook really hates his stump, to the point that he only takes off the apparatus that holds his hook on when there's no light, so he doesn't have to look at it. It's a pivotal moment when the woman in the story sees him when he happens to have the hook off, and he tries to hide the stump in his sleeve, but then it becomes very intimate when she touches it and then gets erotic when she has him touch her with it. That's the kind of thing we needed here (well, maybe not yet the eroticism) -- some sense of how he really felt about the hook and some reaction from her to show that the hand/hook thing has nothing to do with why she values him.

Not that any of it mattered anyway, since the hand plot was to set up the blackmail plot. Except nothing came of that except the phone message, and nothing came of that. You could remove the whole hand/blackmail plot without changing the story arc at all. Just the mention that Rumple was helping Emma get rid of her magic would have raised red flags for Hook, since Rumple is Rumple, and he could have found the map and headed to the mansion and had his heart ripped out while Rumple monologued his whole evil scheme. No change whatsoever in the outcome. And then Emma's fear of losing another boyfriend was forgotten even when she nearly lost another boyfriend, since there was no reaction from her, just "here's your heart, gotta go, it's girls' night out and we're doing shots."

So, basically, the entire date storyline was setup for plot lines that went absolutely nowhere and came to nothing. And it wasn't even a particularly interesting date, in and of itself.

YaddaYadda · January 10, 2015

The entire heart thing could have taken place without the double blackmail thing and not been so convoluted or out of place. Rumple had Hook hold down the Apprentice but did he ever make him do anything else?

I agree, but they needed to place Hook back in Rumple's orbit. Those two had zero interaction since Neverland. Rumple did lock Hook in the trunk of his car and tried to drown him (but under Zelena's control, so it doesn't count). The whole thing though between them started with "White Out" when Hook and David went to Rumple for assistance in freeing Emma and he refused to help. That already showed how little he cared about Emma other than whatever she can do for him. So I guess that already establishes for Hook that when Emma went to Gold for assistance with her magic, he just wasn't buying it and he got to see what the hat does to magical folks first hand.

The relationship that they have tried to portray for Emma/Hook has been one where they supposedly accept each other as is. She looks past the bad stuff he had done in the past. He appreciates her magic and doesn't shirk away from it or run from it. So the whole idea that he would want the hand back to feel worthy doesn't work for me.

I'm not sure how to put this exactly, but we've seen it when Hook has been hurt by Emma, we always sort of see it in his face, I guess I always sort of go back to the whole one handed comment. He doesn't really seem to care what anyone thinks of him, he generally just rolls his eyes and keeps going, but Emma is a whole other matter. He loves her, so her opinion of him will always be the most important. That being said, the whole hand thing was convoluted especially since there was no real build up towards it. When Emma was trapped, he was using his hook to try and free her. If he had a hand, he would have been even more useless. Him wanting his hand back was a bit weird, but then at the same time, the guy hasn't been whole in a really long time, has a difficult time accepting things he has done, maybe the hook is symbolic of the things he did in the name vengeance. He changed his clothes and he is changing in terms of who he is, maybe the hook doesn't allow him to completely move on. But we'll never find out because this show and it might actually be interesting to delve into character motivation, so obviously, can't have that with any characters unless it's Regina (and they even managed to botch their special little snowflake).

He lied to her. Not mentioned again. He told her about the lie via voicemail. Not to be heard. She said she didn't want to lose him. She almost lost him. She drank with Regina.

And the show is probably skipping more than 6 weeks ahead when it comes back 2 months. It will be another round of fill in the blanks. She will have found out everything, we will not get to see her reaction. As you said, she almost lost him with no reaction even though that was the reason she was so reluctant in getting closer to him. So, he almost drowns in 3B and she was doing mighty fine trying to push him away, then he almost gets impaled and finally nearly has his heart crushed. So this is 3 instances where he nearly goes bye bye. And honestly, what about her nearly dying? Is he not allowed to express the same things she has as in I don't want to lose you and how he pretty much puts his life on the line just because of that? It's like one doesn't go without the other.

Anyway...by the way, Canada is in a deep freeze right now, so I'm hoping they'll give Colin something warm to wear. Sick men are big babies.

kitticup · January 10, 2015

I agree the writers are great at set up but fail on development and resolution. they could have had a small scene at the loft with Emma's family, Elsa and Hook having dinner having a quiet moment and thinking about next steps. Baby Snowflake starts to cry and hook goes to pick him up but can't. As a person with two hands picking up anewborn freaks me out because I am afraid I could hurt the baby. I don't see how Hook would be a able to pick up a baby. Of course S now or David would pick up the baby. Hook wants a family and not the life of a pirate. The hand could represent that.

Amerilla · January 11, 2015

It's a real problem with characters existing 99% in the moment, and it's really noticeable in the couples. There's no sense that Rumbelle or Captain Swan as couples have shared goals or dreams, or if they ever talk about feelings, or if they have anything in common, or even what they love about one another. When The Plot forces them to refer to something like that, or to share deep inner feelings, or to act in a certain way, it comes out of the blue and makes almost no sense.

Hook's hand is a good example - it can be head-canoned, like pretty much anything can, but in-show, it was entirely a plot device. It came out of nowhere, it made no sense for Hook to go to Rumpel for it, it elicited no particularly notable response from Emma even when it should have, and it turned out to be pointless in the long run. There was no foundation for it. He's never shown to care much about the hook, Emma's never shown to care much about the hook, it's something both characters have used as fodder for jokes, so to suddenly turn it to omg drama! fell like a ruined souffle.

When Belle (almost literally) kicks Rumpel to the curb, it's because "I tried to be everything for you" and "I just wanted to be chosen," and that's all bullshit. She's never positioned herself as his "everything." They've barely been around each other for most of their relationship; even "married," they spent most of their time apart, each doing their own things. If you squint really hard, you could make an argument that she wanted to be "chosen," to be put above power in his hierarchy of needs, but it's hardly been a defining, or even identifiable, aspect of their relationship. There were a bunch of justifiable reasons for Belle to banish Rumpel, but there were miles and miles and miles away from the reasons the show assigned her in that pivotal moment, reasons that made her appear weak and needy, when all the weakness and neediness has always been on his side of their relationship.

The stupid thing is, there was a good story even just using the imagery of the cursed hand and the gauntlet - two enchanted manifestations of a human hand that could have led to profound shifts in both relationships. Instead, it was all pretty freaking random.

YaddaYadda · January 11, 2015

When Belle (almost literally) kicks Rumpel to the curb, it's because "I tried to be everything for you" and "I just wanted to be chosen," and that's all bullshit. She's never positioned herself as his "everything."

That's the thing, right? I mean she was always happy with the scrapes he gave her, that he would likely always choose his power over her. He stopped a TLK with her so that the curse would remain, so that he could remain who he is, powers and all. And she had that dumb, silly line about how she loves every part of him, including the parts that belong to the darkness, so how does she expect to be chosen? Belle has her head so far up her ass sometimes. It makes me sad that she will go back to him, because that idea shouldn't even be a blip on her radar.

And it's the same thing with the whole entire town. He was willing to let the town go to hell because Neal had presumably died instead of helping Regina with the trigger (he is after all so mighty and powerful!). He was willing to let her die as Lacey if it hadn't been for Leroy who actually cared a hell of a lot more about Belle in that moment. He was willing to let Emma die twice in 4A, he was going to basically kidnap his grandson away from his other mother and lie to him that everyone said grandson cares about/loves has died. He does realize that grandson lost his father like just days ago, right? Emma thought he was completely reformed because he married Belle all the while he is getting ready to absorb my pretty naive girl into the hat and then murder her boyfriend. Like seriously, WTF!

I really hate that we will eventually be back to the status quo with Rumple.

KAOS Agent · January 12, 2015

There's no sense that Rumbelle or Captain Swan as couples have shared goals or dreams, or if they ever talk about feelings, or if they have anything in common, or even what they love about one another.

I'm not sure I agree with that. While I do think that all couples are shortchanged in terms of actual meaningful conversations, Captain Swan got several moments in 4A where I could see the relationship deepening and saw Emma drawing strength from Hook's support. They got screwed on the dramatic emotional resolution to the entire heart/can't lose you issues they built up, but the scene with Hook going through Emma's stuff and watching the video as well as the one outside the evil ice cream truck gave the burgeoning relationship something other than fighting monsters or making out. In terms of shared goals as a couple or sharing their feelings, the relationship is at most two weeks along. Outside of Regina/Robin's crazy pixie dust inspired insta-love, most people aren't discussing where they see the relationship going a week into it. This relationship will move slow as molasses both because the writers need it to, but also believably because Emma is not good at fast.

Rumbelle, on the other hand, is quite a bit further along in their relationship and thus they should be addressing shared goals. I wonder if they even bothered to discuss the future before they married. For the most part, Rumpel and Belle's goals seem to be opposed to each other. Rumpel seems to be a bit of a homebody and craves power over everything, while Belle craves adventure and wants to be a hero. What does that mean for them? Would Rumpel like another child? Would Belle? Belle wants to see the world, so was she cool with the idea of staying in Storybrooke and running the pawnshop? Is she good with Rumpel remaining the Dark One? How about the idea that he's immortal and she's not? Does she want him to turn back her clock every ten years or does she want to grow old like normal people? These are very important questions that should be addressed before you bind yourself to someone forever - particularly given the groom's previous marital history.

Edited January 12, 2015 by KAOS Agent

Shanna Marie · January 27, 2015

A discussion on the spoiler thread got me started thinking, and since my thoughts don't involve spoilers and do involve relationships, I thought I'd come over here.

There was a quote about how Emma had fought for Hook's heart in the first half of the season, which was kind of laughable since she didn't actually do anything. Thinking about it, though, I'm not so much bothered about her not doing something to contribute to saving his life from the relationship standpoint. There, for me the issue is more about how three arcs in a row have ended up with Emma frozen, immobilized or otherwise taken out of the action while someone else saves the day. It's getting repetitive. On the relationship side of things, she's probably ahead of him when it comes to life saving, since she did CPR on him to save him from drowning and she saved him from Ingrid's icicles. If anything, they need to give him a chance to save her. I love that she can save herself, but at least let them fight side-by-side and save each other instead of him being the damsel in distress or instead of making it a joke that his attempts at daring rescues always fall flat.

But where things are really getting to be dissatisfying on the relationship front is in the emotional support arena. He's been there for her through a number of things -- bringing her back to her family, all the "you're a bloody hero, Swan" pep talks, holding her while she watched her mother be executed, consoling and counseling her in the aftermath and drying her tears, helping her find her magic again by getting her to open up about her feelings, being there as she had to deal with her childhood memories and learn about the memories taken away from her. I didn't have a big problem with things being pretty one-sided just because he hasn't had to deal with anything like that. When he was moping after Zelena's curse, she did notice and tried to cheer him up and tried to get him to talk, so we got the impression that if the time came that he was going through something difficult, she'd be there for him like he was there for her.

And then that situation came and we got nothing at all. She noticed that something was wrong but didn't follow up. He even managed to break Rumple's control over him for a moment to signal to her that something was wrong, and she noticed and seemed alarmed, but she did nothing. They entirely skipped showing how she reacted to finding out what had been going on with him. We didn't get to see her find out he was in danger, we didn't see her learn what had been happening (we don't even know how much she knows), we didn't get to see what she did in the immediate aftermath -- did she console him, try to reassure him, did they talk, did they hold each other, did they hold hands, was there just uncomfortable silence, did he not want to talk about it, did he tell her everything, all at once? We have absolutely zero idea what she thought about the fact that her boyfriend, whom she was terrified of losing like she'd lost everyone else, had his heart ripped out by his worst enemy a couple of days earlier and had been forced to do things he hated for his enemy before his enemy was going to crush his heart to do a spell. All we saw was her shoving the heart back in, letting him kiss her and then worming away from him to go see how Regina was doing. It's so frustrating because we finally had an opportunity to balance the relationship a little emotionally and show that it's two-sided, and they didn't even bother. I'm inclined to blame the writing rather than Emma as a character because it's so inconsistent with the way she's been shown in the past. She noticed and was concerned when he was a little more quiet and somber than usual, so it seems like she would have noticed more when his heart had been ripped out and he acted like it was the last time he'd ever see her every time he saw her. It's definitely the fault of the writing that we don't know anything about how she reacted to knowing what had been happening -- was she terrified, supportive, so scared she backed away, blaming herself for not noticing? We can't blame Emma for a lack of reaction when they didn't bother showing us the moment when she would have been reacting.

RadioGirl27 · January 27, 2015

But where things are really getting to be dissatisfying on the relationship front is in the emotional support arena.

A big yes to this. I was thinking about this yesterday, with all the talk, here and in tumblr, about how many times Emma has saved Hook's life, and who has done more "fighting" for the relationship. Both have done pretty big things for the other. But from Emma's side there's a lack of moral support and reassurance that is starting to get dissatisfaying, and this half season has been really disappointing in that respect. The hand debacle is the best example. But there was a lot more this half season.

And the obsession the writers have with plot, plot, plot is damaging all the relationships of the show, romantic and non romantic. The characters don't talk about things that are not the villain of the week, so they came off as uninterested in the other or uncaring. Using Hook and Emma as an example, the date was such a missed opportunity to show them being "normal". But there's a scene that really bugged me, and it's when Hook mentions being a child once and Emma answers him making a joke about his age. Just adding one more line of dialogue for Emma, something along the lines of "someday, when this ends, you have to tell me about that", and that scene changes completely. They don't need to show them talking about Hook's childhood, just that Emma is interested in him as a person. They can even keep the joke.

Amerilla · January 27, 2015

But where things are really getting to be dissatisfying on the relationship front is in the emotional support arena.

Isn't all that just the patented formula, though? Charming is Snow's emotional support. Belle is Rumpel's emotional support. Hook is Emma's emotional support. Robin was briefly Regina's emotional support. As Emotional Supporters, they exist to hand out hugs and pep talks and rush in to try to save the day when needed, but the the Supportees rarely respond in kind.

Since the writers don't care about the romantic relationships on the show as anything more than plot-movers, they just don't put a lot of thought into making them into co-equal or co-equally felt.

FurryFury · January 28, 2015

Since the writers don't care about the romantic relationships on the show as anything more than plot-movers, they just don't put a lot of thought into making them into co-equal or co-equally felt.

That's true. It's interesting how Once, a soap opera, is actually uninterested in the usual focus of soap operas, romance (and relationships in general). I mean, they promote them, but they definitely don't put much thought there. They maybe cared about Snowing in season 1, Captain Swan in 3A and Rumbelle...em, not sure they ever did, but I'm not convinced they put ANY ideas in Outlaw Queen, for instance (didn't stop from giving them a whole lot of screentime, sadly). And the less said about Emma's relationship with her parents, the better.

LizaD · January 28, 2015

Well that's the key, FurryFurry, Once is a soap. Soaps aren't known for good writing, characterization or plot, people. But from that POV it becomes clear that in actuality the writers only care about Rumbelle, OutlawQueen and Snowing of S1. There's your classic soap couples right there, with classic soap problems. They stopped caring about Snowing as soon as they were happy. Happy means no story in soap land. Soap couples story IS the struggle to be together, not actually being together.

Hook and Emma don't have a couple story. They have a personal story. I think the writers said as much recently when they said Hook and Emma's problems aren't relationship variety but personal.

To be honest, since soap dramas for couples suck major balls, that's a good thing. The bad thing is these writers suck period so the character stories are equally tedious and lacking. However I still think they fare the best by virtue of the writers not caring about them as a couple. I see complaints about the support thing so maybe the couple suffers but Hook the character benefits. He doesn't need his hand to be held by Emma. He gets through crap on his own without a personal cheerleader. The cursed lips story was dumb as hell but the point was he felt guilty about Ariel on his own not because Emma guilt-tripped him and tried to make amends on his own. That's better than having Henry give him a lecture about what makes a hero or Belle telling him he has a good heart. It also allows Hook a character arc, albeit not a very good one, in a way that Charming, Belle and Hood don't.

Emma's not holding his hand and making grand declarations but I still think they're equal than most. Not in the typical romantic way you think of but in context of their characters so it's more likely by accident than design. Hook doesn't need emotional support per se. What he needs/want are tangible and specific things and Emma's given it to him. And most of the time, he doesn't need to tell her, she knows.He didn't want to be alone anymore and Emma offered him the chance to join their community in the S2 finale. In S3 he didn't want to be judged and seen as a no good pirate anymore and Emma kept thanking him and called him a hero in the finale. He wanted her trust and she's given that to him. He wanted a normal date and she asked him out. He was insecure about his hook and she didn't even notice the reattached hand. The most important thing is we know what he wants.

We didn't even know what Belle wanted from Rump until last episode, for him to anoint her as his Chosen One and he's not giving her that yet. Does anyone know Hood wants from Woegina besides crypt sex? What about Charming? What does he want that Snow's fulfilled besides being together?

YaddaYadda · January 28, 2015

LizaD, can I marry your post? I figure a ceremony knee-deep in the not snow they've been freaking out about should do it.

Curio · January 28, 2015

They stopped caring about Snowing as soon as they were happy. Happy means no story in soap land. Soap couples story IS the struggle to be together, not actually being together.

It annoys me to no end when TV shows get bored with a couple once they're finally happy together. Once isn't the only show guilty of this. It also bugs me that the writers felt the only way to make Snow and Charming interesting now that they're happily married is to give them a new baby. (But I just hate baby plots in general on TV.) Since we are stuck with a baby, why can't we get some insight into how Emma and Charming think of the new family situation? We know Snow's insight a bit, but we don't even know if this was something Charming wanted. When Snow first told Charming she was pregnant, he didn't seem that thrilled. Is he secretly freaking out on the inside? Was he internally not prepared for this new kid? How does he feel about Snow hogging the kid to herself? Is he actually kind of okay with it since that means he can spend more time with Emma? Was it Snow's decision to name the baby Neal since Charming questioned if they should have named him Baelfire instead?

And then we have Emma's nearly nonexistent viewpoint about the whole baby situation. We got a very small glimpse of Emma's feelings when she went to pick up Neal from the New Mommy class and boiled the milk. But what does Emma really think about the baby's name? Is she not allowed to be weirded out by the fact her new brother is named after her ex-boyfriend? Does seeing baby Neal all the time make Emma have flashbacks to when she gave up Henry? Does seeing baby Neal make Emma want to have another kid some day? Does it make her not want to have another kid some day?

These are all questions the writers should be ecstatic about exploring. But since the Charming Family relationship dynamic doesn't include Regina, Rumple, or the villain du jour, they're completely ignored. The writers will of course deny this and say, "Oh, but did you not see the scene where Snow and Charming were so excited to send their daughter off on her first date? Or that quick 10 second exchange where Snow told Emma she trusted her and handed Neal over to her? Isn't that enough?" No, it's not enough. Not when you have enough material to write multiple episodes worth of family dynamics between Emma, Charming, Snow, and (ugh) Neal.

Another thing this show sucks at is creating unique character pairings and exploring those relationship dynamics. How would Hook act around Snow if they were stuck in the loft alone together? Does Emma even know what Belle's favorite book is? Why haven't they tried to become friends? What would happen if Will had a conversation with Regina about Cora? This show always seems to restrict certain characters from interacting together. Even Emma interacting with baby Neal alone is an interesting pairing the show hasn't explored yet.

Creating unique character pairings isn't that difficult. How hard would it be to write an arc where Emma, Charming, and baby Neal got separated from Snow and Hook? Emma and Charming could struggle with taking care of the baby because Snow has been doing all the work so far. We could finally get some insight from both Emma and Charming about how they feel about the new baby. Charming could finally open up and maybe admit he's not ready to be a new father. Emma could open up and admit it's kind of weird, but she's getting used to it. Emma could admit that even though she has fake memories of raising Henry, she still doesn't feel comfortable around Neal. Charming (and the audience) could see how much Emma actually cares for Hook because she'd be freaking out about whether he's safe or not. Charming and Snow's happy marriage would have some drama because they're separated again. And then we could finally get some interaction between Snow and Hook and find out what she really thinks about him. Snow could be freaking out because she's separated from her family yet again, and we could see Hook drop his walls a bit and be caring to someone who isn't named Emma. Snow could grill Hook about how he feels about Emma and ask nosy mom questions. Depending on where Snow and Hook got separated, the badass bandit side of Snow could come out and surprise Hook a bit. (Edit: It just occurred to me that this would be the perfect opportunity for Hook to open up about his mom and for the audience to learn what happened to her. He's never mentioned her before so I assume she wasn't in the picture growing up. If he grew up without a mom and Snow learned this, would her natural mothering instincts kick in? Would she start treating Hook like a child and drag him by the ear if he does something annoying? Come on, Show! Give me a Snow/Hook arc!) I mean, you could write an entire half-season arc about this kind of relationship drama. And the only characters involved in this example are *gasp* two couples who are actually happy together.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Curio

YaddaYadda · January 28, 2015

And then we have Emma's nearly nonexistent viewpoint about the whole baby situation. We got a very small glimpse of Emma's feelings when she went to pick up Neal from the New Mommy class and boiled the milk. But what does Emma really think about the baby's name? Is she not allowed to be weirded out by the fact her new brother is named after her ex-boyfriend? Does seeing baby Neal all the time make Emma have flashbacks to when she gave up Henry? Does seeing baby Neal make Emma want to have another kid some day? Does it make her not want to have another kid some day?

I think the fact that she has not uttered the baby's name since 322 at the naming ceremony speaks volumes about what she thinks of that name. Emma has been calling David and Mary Margaret mom and dad, so why is she calling Do Over "my baby brother"?

I mean you knew there would be some sort of fuckery when they decided to make Neal a hero even though he was actually stupid, decided that he had no choice in sending Emma to jail which is a total lie and whitewashing all his actions, not to mention that no one seems to actually really know what went down between him and Emma. Except for Emma telling Mary Margaret that Henry's father was a bad guy in season 1, there has been nothing further said about that. And if your daughter told you that, then why do you think she should be with him and why do even think that it's okay to name your brand new spanking baby after him?

So over it!

Dani-Ellie · January 28, 2015

Henry and Rumple would probably have strong opinions too, but seriously it is messed up and passive aggressive toward your daughter to name your next child after the man who she had a relationship with that didn't work out.

Even barring Snow and Charming not knowing the whole Emma/Neal history, what the hell parents name their baby after the guy who knocked up their teenage daughter and left her alone enough that she felt she had to give the baby up for adoption? Those aren't private between-Emma-and-Neal details. Those are facts they would know simply from knowing Emma and Henry. For crying out loud, show.

Mari · January 28, 2015

People that named their baby after the person they think helped them save Baby Do Over?

It makes a sad sort of sense when you take into account how recently Neal died while trying to give them info about Zelena. Is it more complicated than that? Absolutely. But I don't think Mary Margaret and David want to know about her true history with Neal. If they paid attention to Emma's true history with Neal, they would have to pay attention to how much she had actually gone through in her life. They don't want to do that.

If they pay attention to that they have to think about everything they missed everything and everything Emma suffered. They would have to blame Regina. They would blame themselves.

It's easier to tell themselves that Neil and Emma were true love that were separated by tragic circumstances that are too painful for Emma to talk about and that Neal was a hero.

Mary Margaret and David care about Emma but they do not love her enough to go through the pain it would be to deal with Emma's past and therefore Neal's actions.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Mari

YaddaYadda · January 28, 2015

It's easier to tell themselves that Neil and Emma were true love that were separated by tragic circumstances that are too painful for Emma to talk about and that Neal was a hero.

I'm not one for TLKs because I find they've been completely overdone on the show, so much so that there's nothing special about them anymore but seriously, when I read this all I can say is bring on the CS TLK, just because.....

Shanna Marie · January 28, 2015

Isn't all that just the patented formula, though? Charming is Snow's emotional support. Belle is Rumpel's emotional support. Hook is Emma's emotional support. Robin was briefly Regina's emotional support. As Emotional Supporters, they exist to hand out hugs and pep talks and rush in to try to save the day when needed, but the the Supportees rarely respond in kind.

Well, yes and no, up to a point. The characters who are protagonists -- the ones driving the action, and on this show that seems to be Emma, Regina, Snow, and Rumple -- are more likely to have the crises of confidence or conscience, to be tested and go through trials, and therefore the plot is arranged so that they're the most in need of emotional support. I'm okay with that. My issue is whether they bother to show that the relationship actually works both ways if the plot is ever structured so that the usual supporter is in need of support.

When it comes to Snow and David, he hasn't had the same kind of need for pep talks and support that she has, and when he has, it's been his personality to try to go off and figure it out on his own rather than leaning on her -- like going off to work out his fatherhood fears or hiding the fact that he was poisoned. That works okay for me and doesn't feel like their relationship has been one-sided. However, if, say, Snow had learned he was poisoned and dying while it was happening rather than after the fact, I would have expected to see something of her comforting and encouraging him (which was why he hid it, so she wouldn't have to when he wanted her focused on Henry).

We have seen some reversals of the other couples. While Belle is usually Rumple's support, we got to see him react when Hook shot her, and he tried to be encouraging, helpful and supportive while she had amnesia. Then this season, even though he was lying through his teeth, he did console her and encourage her when she went through her crisis of conscience about Anna. There was hugging and reassuring. Robin's usual role with Regina might be "I know you're not a monster, you're bold and audacious, and I don't know why that crazy woman I'm married to called you that. You'd think you'd imprisoned her and planned her execution, or something," but she was there for him when Marian was frozen. He was able to go to her for help, she helped him, tried to encourage him, and then applied tough love in telling him to get his act together. Then in the second round of freezing she applied tough love again and supported him through the difficult decision to leave and provided him money. We definitely saw her reaction to what happened to him. So it's frustrating when Hook nearly dies right in front of Emma's eyes, and we never get to see how she felt about that, and we don't even know if she realized what he went through, and they have her leave him and go off to drink with Regina.

LizaD · January 29, 2015

Hook nearly dies right in front of Emma's eyes, and we never get to see how she felt about that, and we don't even know if she realized what he went through

Well that's because some of the viewers thought this was a Hook and Emma couple story and the end point of the story was to see how the couple went through this event together. It wasn't. I'm not saying that's not a fair or obvious expectation but.... like I said above they don't get couple stories. Hook and Emma's "character" arcs for 4A both effectively ended in Smash the Mirror and they had almost the same arc to boot, one of self-doubt. Hook boasted to Rump that he was a changed man but clearly he didn't completely believe that. The phone call he made to Emma proved that he did change. End of story. And right after that he became Rump's instrument literally and figuratively as an instrument to Rump's story. Emma's ended at the door with Elsa. Then she went on to service Frozen crew. If they were written as a soapy couple, all that would've yielded relationship drama, not personal drama. That's why the writers saw no need for Emma to get the phone call and no need for Hook to talk Emma down from the door. Those 2 things got the individuals to where they needed to be, not where the couple needed to be. And that's why they got nada with the stolen heart thing.

On the flip side we saw how Rumple's story was framed. The end point was to get to Rumbelle's breakup. We never saw Rump angsting over his PTSD or whatever the hell the writers claimed. Rump is clearly the big cheese in Rumbelle but every single one of his actions was framed "how will this affect his relationship with Belle." They didn't bother exploring Rump's psyche because they were too busy worrying about his epic relationship. Everyone from Ingrid to Emma to Hook was always Rumbelle, Rumbelle, Rumbelle. Same with Outlaw Queen. Every plot was to get the couple where they needed to be, apart and struggling to get back together. And yes other people had to play plot point to those 2 couples to move them into place.

Edited January 29, 2015 by LizaD

Amerilla · January 29, 2015

The end point was to get to Rumbelle's breakup.

I think that's arguable. Another "yes and no," at best.

Really, Rumbelle in 4a wasn't much different from CS - very little actual interaction between the couple, some talk about one another but no execptionally deep emotion behind it, capped off by an unsatisfying finale.

And the breakup itself turned out ot be a bait-and-switch. It didn't have as much to do with Rumbelle as it did with setting up the Queens of Darkness storyline for 4b.

Every plot was to get the couple where they needed to be, apart and struggling to get back together.

Rumbelle is always one of those areas where the fandom and the anti-fandom puts a lot more emphasis on the ship than the show ever does. (And, in fairness, the same is true for CS and Snowing and SQ). The writers don't treat it as "epic," or even very important. They treat it as a way to move Rumpel's part of the plot. Belle exists only as a way to poke him in the direction the story wants him to go.

That was the case here - the relationship, to the limited extent it can be called that, was about moving the Rumple across the Town Line, so he could sail forth and find the minions that can get him integrated into the Find the Author plot.

I don't have a problem with that, per se. I don't want them to write to the ships or the shippers. I just wish they'd put a little more thought into how they told the relationship parts of the story. Because even if I agreed 100% that this was All About Rumbelle, the execution sucked flying-money ass. It was unevenly plotted, it was poorly written, made very little sense if you think about it for more than say, 10 seconds. Worse, it was repetitive: Belle and Rumpel have split up or been split up every midseason since S1, and if you count the S2 finale, it's their fifth break-up/struggle to get back to each other storyline in 3.5 seasons. Even most of the hardcore shippers don't give a crap anymore.

So it's frustrating when Hook nearly dies right in front of Emma's eyes, and we never get to see how she felt about that, and we don't even know if she realized what he went through, and they have her leave him and go off to drink with Regina.

While I don't share the frustration, I certainly empathize. :-)

Edited January 29, 2015 by Amerilla

YaddaYadda · January 29, 2015

I'll bet you anything no one knew about Hook when they showed up in the clock tower. First, I'm not even sure how Ingrid found out about the heart bit seeing as she didn't have the hat for that long. Second, Anna knew nothing really about that hat other than Rumple was trying to cut himself off his dagger (and even then I have the feeling that I'm not even remembering this right), so she has no idea what he needs for that aka the heart of the person who knew him before he was the Dark One because Rumple himself did not know about that until Ingrid clued him in.

Belle was following the gauntlet to the thing Rumple loved most and Emma was probably following the CGI light to the clock tower to stop him from doing what he was doing. Nobody knew that Hook was in trouble. Emma sensed something was off with him but it would have been a huge leap even for her to be all he doesn't have his heart, Rumple is going to kill him.

I'm not even sure of the truth of the whole heart thing even even though I can see the merit.

Also, relationship wise, didn't the Blue Fairy know Rumple before he became the Dark One?

Shanna Marie · January 29, 2015

But good grief this was just badly written or edited. I get that it wasn't meant by the writers to be about CS - all arguments that a guy almost dying should be a focus aside - but we got Emma and Snow being frozen. When they are unfrozen, they don't have lines or reactions to anything. It was just plain empty. I wasn't asking for declarations of love, just maybe a realization that they were lucky this time instead of good at surviving. If Emma was surprised by the hat, the heart, or Hook standing there with his arch enemy, we don't know because it was never shown. We don't even know what Emma wanted Rumple to stop doing because we don't know what she knew other than lying about knowing Anna.

Even if Hook hadn't been Emma's boyfriend, you'd think that there would have been reactions to what Snow and Emma saw. And wouldn't they have been worried about what was going to happen? Given that Belle has let Rumple off the hook for everything else, there was no guarantee of what she was going to do.

A decent writer knows that a scene can -- and should -- multitask. It can progress the current plot, set up a future plot, illuminate character, and develop relationships. This was (or should have been) the climactic scene of the half season. It was also the "oops, the Terminator isn't dead" moment, where they'd thought they saved the day by stopping Ingrid's scheme, only to find out that all this time, Rumple had been up to something behind the scenes and now he was about to do his worst. Yes, the scene was setting up the "Rumple rounds up his Angels to seek a happy ending for villains" plot. And it was throwing a twist into the relationship between Belle and Rumple. But it should also have shown us something about the relationship between Hook and Emma as she learns how much danger he was in and has to wonder how much he's known all along and if he was hiding things from her (she wouldn't have known right away when he lost his heart). It should have dealt with Emma's established fear of losing yet another man she loves. It should have shown where Hook was after the reprieve -- how did he feel about what Belle did? I'm sure he was grateful, but given that she'd been dismissive about what Rumple did to Milah and had blamed him for "making" Rumple go dark when Rumple was beating him, he might have wondered what she was going to do with Rumple. In his shoes, I wouldn't have been wanting to head to Granny's and have a makeout session. I'd have been making sure I was safe for at least a while. It should even have shown something about what Snow thought about all this -- she could have seen how Emma felt about Hook or she could have been worried about Belle. Snow was seeing Hook in a really vulnerable moment. How did he feel about that? It wouldn't even have taken massive amounts of screen time to show any of this, maybe thirty seconds, with a close-up shot of some facial expressions and maybe a tiny bit of dialogue. Just showing Emma rushing to Hook and then a shot of Snow's face as she watched them together would have helped.

When did she come up with the plan to make him cross the town line? How did she know what that would do?

I think Henry mentioned that when he found her packing. He was surprised to find that she was packing for a honeymoon when they'd learned that no one could leave the town and ever come back, and she shrugged it off, saying she was sure Rumple would figure something out. I don't remember if she had all the details.

Basically, pretty much everything about that scene skipped from point A to point X, with no stops along the way to show how they got there.

MaiLuna · January 29, 2015

Yes, that 2 seconds shot after they were unfrozen, they could've at least looked in Hook's direction instead of at Rumpel. It's not that hard.

Shanna Marie · January 29, 2015

I don't remember, do we even know what Snow thinks about Emma's relationship with Hook? I know in 3A she was all about Neal, with the "Neal will understand" bit after Emma confessed to kissing Hook, but I don't recall seeing anything one way or another, aside from her motherly glee about preparing Emma for her date and then wanting to hear details afterward. She and Emma haven't really talked about that -- does she have misgivings about her daughter dating a pirate, or does she appreciate the things he's done for Emma and for them? In the current timeline, he was instrumental in her meeting David, since he was the one who sent her after the ring -- and that was even as himself rather than in the "Prince Charles" disguise.

Sad, we know far more about what Snow thinks about Regina's relationship than about her own daughter's relationship. Then again, we pretty much know what everyone thinks about Regina's relationship, since that's the only one anyone's really been allowed to react to.

Curio · January 29, 2015

Sad, we know far more about what Snow thinks about Regina's relationship than about her own daughter's relationship.

That is sad. We got a quick conversation between her and Emma in the first episode of 4A where she asked if Emma told Henry about her new relationship yet, but that's about it. But it's not surprising that we don't know a single thing about how Snow feels about Hook as Emma's boyfriend because Hook and Snow barely interact at all.

KAOS Agent · January 29, 2015

What's so stupid about everyone knowing about Outlaw Queen and being oh so sad about its complications is that the relationship was at most a week old. Why does everyone in town treat it like it's this grand romance? I get people being supportive about a break up, but it doesn't make sense that everyone is immediately believing in the relationship's ability to last beyond the initial burst of passion (especially given Regina's track record) and thinking it's the truest of true loves. Hook & Emma have a longer relationship than Outlaw Queen and they are still at the let's try a date and work from there stage. Yes, Hook is desperately in love with Emma, but I don't think either of them (or anyone else for that matter) imagines that after a week of dating everything is now set in stone that they are true loves who will live happily ever after. It doesn't work that way. So why is it that everyone acts like they agree with Regina that her life is now over because her boyfriend is out in the real world with his wife? And if they are so damn convinced that Regina & Robin are true loves, why not suggest that Regina work on something that will allow for passage back and forth across the town line and go after him instead of bitching about how her life is over?

Stop moping, get off your ass and do something about it, Regina! She is consistently the only character who is allowed to mope and have everyone stand around placating her instead of calling her out on it. Relationships involve both people to work at it. Regina's constantly giving up on it and moping gives me little hope of their relationship lasting long term even if Robin were to return. The world isn't perfect and neither are relationships. I don't care what pixie dust says about it.

Shanna Marie · January 30, 2015

What's so stupid about everyone knowing about Outlaw Queen and being oh so sad about its complications is that the relationship was at most a week old. Why does everyone in town treat it like it's this grand romance? I get people being supportive about a break up, but it doesn't make sense that everyone is immediately believing in the relationship's ability to last beyond the initial burst of passion (especially given Regina's track record) and thinking it's the truest of true loves.

This is where I'm utterly baffled at the decision to have them just snarking at each other during the Missing Year instead of involved in a relationship. I can't see any plot or character reason why it couldn't have happened that way, and it would have solved about 90 percent of the problems with the relationship as it played out. Then it would have been a year-long romance instead of something that had been going on for days when Marian returned. They could still have done the slight wariness and the "bold and audacious" remark and had Regina discover the tattoo in the present because at that time they had no memory of the missing year. Then when their memories came back they would have realized they were already in love and had fallen in love all over again. I know I'd be a lot more convinced if I saw them fall in love twice and if we saw more development of the relationship in the Enchanted Forest before she discovered the tattoo. Really, the tattoo should have sealed the deal, not kicked things off. It should have been a moment of "oh, that explains it" rather than "oh, I guess I have to go for him this time." Like if the first time they slept together, there was the frantic undressing in the dark and she didn't see his bare arm until the morning after. If they're really supposed to be soulmates, shouldn't they have recognized that without any evidence?

Someone you've spent a year with is a much bigger breakup than someone you went out with twice (and apparently hadn't had sex with, based on his "haven't 'slept' this well in a while" remark after the cryptsex). Two dates and some kissing before he goes back to his ex is maybe one venting conversation with a friend before defiantly going out on the town. That's not even worthy of an ice cream and romantic movie binge. It also makes him look like a sleaze if he threw over his long-lost and miraculously returned wife who changed his life and gave up everything for him for a woman he started seeing two days before his wife's return. If it's a year-long relationship, then I could see him being torn and even Marian realizing things had gone too far for him to leave his new relationship.

But as it was, it looks like the only thing that changed between them hating each other and them loving each other was her seeing his tattoo, so there's no substance, and all this drama that required the whole town to react came from a two-date relationship.

MaiLuna · January 30, 2015

And we were shown in Lacey that Robin risked his life to get the wand to save her and Roland. They weren't in an unhappy or arranged marriage, they were in love. He even said in 3.21 that he would've walked through hell to be with Marian again, and when he does get her back, she only stays with her because of his vows. That was his only reason, they could've at least shown some conflicting feelings about loving two women. But no, he was just "stuck" with her. It's like he forgot all the reasons why he loved her. I get that he changed in those 4/5 years and she didn't because of the time-travel, but I don't believe that he would feel nothing for her. He did seem very happy to see her again in 3.22 but in season 4 it was like she was just a nuisance for him.

Dani-Ellie · January 30, 2015

And the worst part is, the angst was right there in the story! I mean, right freakin' there! Regina is the woman who took Marian from him in the first place! There didn't need to be some manufactured drama with Robin and Marian and Regina because the fallout from Marian coming to the future and telling her husband that Regina was the one who'd imprisoned her was all that was needed.

You want a struggle for Robin? How about finding out that his new love is responsible for the imprisonment of his wife? So how does he reconcile what he feels for Regina with what he knows she's done? You want a struggle for Marian? Her husband is now with the woman who was going to put her to death. How does she reconcile her husband understandably moving on with his life with the woman he'd moved on with? You want a struggle for Regina? Her past actually comes back to bite her in the ass. How does she reconcile what she did then with the person she is now?

But no, instead of actually letting the story play out in some kind of real, logical way, they just throw more magic at it and heap a freezing curse on Marian. So now the story is "must save Marian but she needs me to love her but I can't because I love you!" Which did Robin and Regina no favors whatsoever, at least in my book, because I found it nigh on impossible to cheer for the adultery and the crypt sex and the Robin confessing he loves Regina over his wife's frozen body.

KAOS Agent · January 30, 2015

So now the story is "must save Marian but she needs me to love her but I can't because I love you!" Which did Robin and Regina no favors whatsoever, at least in my book, because I found it nigh on impossible to cheer for the adultery and the crypt sex and the Robin confessing he loves Regina over his wife's frozen body.

This is why I'm so confused about Outlaw Queen. I don't know why they would think people would find this romantic. Sure, there are certain fans who will ship or root for anything involving their favorite character, but I watched it and want Marian to kick Robin in the balls and Regina to dump his ass. It's not a romantic tale of lovers separated by circumstance. In fact, they were separated by their own actions! It's not some great tragedy like Romeo and Juliet where they are kept apart by a family feud. And hell, even Juliet expressed her anger and confusion about Romeo killing Tybalt. Yes, Romeo and Juliet argued about him killing her loved one. What a novel idea Shakespeare had in finding drama in that situation.

Am I supposed to cheer for adultery? Marian did nothing wrong. Robin and Regina getting it on was basically signing her death warrant since True Love was supposedly the only way to save her. I can't root for that. If the characters aren't going to struggle with their past actions, why even have Regina kill Marian in the first place? Why not have Emma & Hook find Marian in some other way and bring her back? The way the relationship has progressed, Regina's killing Marian made no difference in the story. None. So what was the point? All it did was seal it for me that I could never get on board with supporting Outlaw Queen. Even Regina deserves better than that asshole.

Shanna Marie · January 30, 2015

Outlaw Queen may be a new achievement in television writing -- they managed to make the wrong choice in every single instance, and making the right choice wouldn't have altered the outcome at all, other than making it more palatable, less gross, more dramatic, and more emotional.

There's the Missing Year -- why not let them get together then and allow it to have been a long-established relationship before Marian returned? I don't even think they were trying to imply that all the snarking and sniping at each other was really unresolved sexual tension, since when the memory spell broke they talked about how much less annoying and obnoxious they found each other in Storybrooke, which seems to strongly imply that they really did not like each other at all in the Enchanted Forest. Because of the memory spell, things in Storybrooke could have played out exactly the same way, only they'd have been truly together and deeply in love rather than having made out a couple of times before Marian returned.

There's Marian's fate -- if they weren't going to treat it as relevant at all, why make Marian one of Regina's victims? Emma could have rescued her from anywhere in the past. Marian still could have been initially hostile to Regina because of the Evil Queen thing, but it's much less gross for Robin if Marian went missing because she was in Rumple's dungeon, captured by Blackbeard, would have been run over by a carriage if Emma hadn't saved her, etc.

Then instead of Robin ditching his wife for his girlfriend of two days who was the reason his wife went missing, he could have been legitimately torn about his year-long relationship with a woman who had nothing to do with Marian's disappearance.

What we got was people who hated each other until she saw his tattoo and realized who he was, who'd kissed a couple of times before his long-lost wife returned after escaping execution in Regina's dungeon, then they started sleeping together after he said he was staying with his wife and while his wife was under a spell. How romantic.

Souris · January 30, 2015

And yet a not-insignificant portion of the fanbase DOES think Outlaw Queen is romantic, root passionately for it and want Marian dead.

Sometimes I do wonder if the show is really a psych experiment to see how many awful things they can have a character or couple do and still have fans root for them.

Curio · January 30, 2015

Sometimes I do wonder if the show is really a psych experiment to see how many awful things they can have a character or couple do and still have fans root for them.

It really would explain the writing behind Rumple/Belle, Robin/Regina, Snow/Regina, Snow/Emma, Emma/Regina...

YaddaYadda · January 30, 2015

Oh, OQ, I really wonder what the whole reasoning behind it is. I mean why write it that way? Marian coming had very little impact because Robin chose Regina like 30 seconds after his dead wife came back. He could not give her a TLK because he did not love her anymore, she was frozen and he was chasing after Regina, having sex with Regina, she came back and he still wanted to be with Regina. The only thing is that contrived Marian still has residual magic in her from Ingrid's curse, because you know, her spells weren't undone when she died.

At the end of the day, he chose Regina over Marian and the only reason he isn't in SB is because he would have looked like an even bigger douche than he is if he had let Marian go off on her own.

You're in over your head when Regina of all people is the one telling you to do the right thing.

Edited January 30, 2015 by YaddaYadda

Mari · January 30, 2015

Outlaw Queen could've been worse. They could have decided to not only have all that happened happen, but included Marian actually being Zelena or Maleficent in disguise. I read lots of posts that were absolutely sure that was the case, and with these writers and this show, it couldn't be ruled out.

KAOS Agent · January 30, 2015

Oh I think Outlaw Queen got worse when Robin and Will had that conversation in Granny's Diner where they talked about how Marian had made Robin into the man he was. She gave him his code. She lived in misery in the woods because she loved him. Somehow a conversation about how much Marian sacrificed for Robin and how she'd made him into the best version of himself (both requirements in this show's True Love definition) led Robin to go off and have crypt sex with Regina. What the hell was that about? I wouldn't want anyone in a relationship with a man like that. He even tells Regina that being with her is dishonorable. This is supposed to be True Love? I don't understand it. Is there anyone out there that ships Outlaw Queen that can explain to me how this works for them?

Shanna Marie · January 30, 2015

Outlaw Queen could've been worse. They could have decided to not only have all that happened happen, but included Marian actually being Zelena or Maleficent in disguise. I read lots of posts that were absolutely sure that was the case, and with these writers and this show, it couldn't be ruled out.

I don't know, that might have been an improvement. Then Robin would have been justified in choosing Regina in the end because Marian would actually have been dead and Marian herself wouldn't have been made the "loser" in a triangle due to no fault of her own. Then "Marian" could have been properly vilified and done away with to clear the way for Robin and Regina without Robin looking like a total cretin. Even better if Maleficent or Zelena had been the one to kill Marian in the first place, so it was only fake Marian in the dungeon. The plot would have been convoluted and silly, but the relationship would have made more sense.

Oh I think Outlaw Queen got worse when Robin and Will had that conversation in Granny's Diner where they talked about how Marian had made Robin into the man he was. She gave him his code. She lived in misery in the woods because she loved him. Somehow a conversation about how much Marian sacrificed for Robin and how she'd made him into the best version of himself (both requirements in this show's True Love definition) led Robin to go off and have crypt sex with Regina.

That's another case of them making the worst possible decision at each step of the way. If what they wanted was a rationale for Robin to have guilt-free crypt sex with Robin, that was a truly bizarre setup, to remind him of how much his wife meant to him and what she sacrificed for him. To make it guilt-free, then maybe he could have been remembering that they'd already been growing apart or had been fighting, and he'd forgotten the bad stuff while he was feeling guilty about her supposed death. But what kind of creep remembers how much his wife helped him and how much she sacrificed for him because she loved him so much and uses that as a rationale to go sleep with someone else -- especially when rediscovering his love for his wife might be necessary to save her life? Not that I was ever on board with this relationship, but that was when I started actively hating him.

Curio · January 30, 2015

Outlaw Queen could've been worse. They could have decided to not only have all that happened happen, but included Marian actually being Zelena or Maleficent in disguise. I read lots of posts that were absolutely sure that was the case, and with these writers and this show, it couldn't be ruled out.

Actually, I think I would have preferred a secret Zelena plot over this pushover Marian. The Marian we have right now isn't even a character, really. She doesn't have a discernible personality; one episode she can stand up for herself and call Regina a monster, another episode she goes up to that same woman and says okay, you can have my husband now and you're not so bad. We have no idea if Marian told Robin about Regina imprisoning and torturing her, and we have no idea what lead her to decide Robin isn't worth her time anymore. She mentioned something about "seeing the way he looks" at Regina, but we weren't actually shown that on screen because Marian was frozen for the entire freaking time.

This is supposed to be True Love? I don't understand it. Is there anyone out there that ships Outlaw Queen that can explain to me how this works for them?

I've honestly tried to be neutral about it and look at their relationship with an unbiased lens, and I still find nothing redeeming about it. Not only did the writers decide to skip every dramatic moment about Robin finding out Regina was the one who tortured his wife to Regina never showing regret over forcing Roland to grow up without a mother, but their relationship is so freaking cliche. It's the I-hate-you-but-I-actually-like-you trope combined with the classic "meet cute" where Robin saves her life and she's "sassy" back to him.

And then the writers thought they could hit gold again by copying Emma and Hook's adventure where they had to travel somewhere alone together while one person in the pairing tries to dig deeper into the other person's past. Except the writers didn't try to push Captain Swan as a viable pairing right after their adventure, they waited until the next season to even drop a hint that they could be a canon couple. But with Outlaw Queen, they went there with Robin and Regina as a True Love pairing a couple episodes after their adventure aired. Actually, they were already there before the episode aired because they were predetermined to be True Love because of the fairy dust in the past. Ugh.

Edited January 30, 2015 by Curio

Lieutenant · January 30, 2015

Somehow a conversation about how much Marian sacrificed for Robin and how she'd made him into the best version of himself (both requirements in this show's True Love definition) led Robin to go off and have crypt sex with Regina. What the hell was that about? I wouldn't want anyone in a relationship with a man like that. He even tells Regina that being with her is dishonorable. This is supposed to be True Love? I don't understand it. Is there anyone out there that ships Outlaw Queen that can explain to me how this works for them?

Agree. It's like this whole relationship was created by a drunk co-ed trying to submit a creative writing project at the last minute. There is nothing of value in it at all. The whole thing squicks me out to no end. Who in the writers/producers room thought this was a good idea?! It's bad enough that we have to deal with Saint Wogena kicking and screaming her way to the "hero" side, but then to throw in this milksop of a character in Robin Hood as her fairy dust induced True Love, chaps my hide. Not only do I feel like it's a disservice to the real couples who are actually journeying down True Love's road (without 100% guaranteed-super-special-fairy dust confirmation, may I add - ugh), but it makes me wonder just what they think we, as an audience, will gladly consume. I really wish there were someone here (or on Tumbler) who could give us a good meta on this whole mess, because I've yet to read a convincing one. I guess it ultimately comes down to what one is willing to accept. And a "true love" based on two weeks of interaction, adultery in a crypt, abandonment of an innocent spouse, attempted murder of same spouse, and overall epic wussatude (Robin), lack of responsibility (both), and lack of remorse (hello, Regina) makes this one story I have a BIG problem with accepting. In fact, it pretty much makes me sick.

Souris · January 30, 2015

Honestly, I think a large portion of the appeal of OQ to its fans is that they love Regina and just want the poor dear to be happy, darn it all. Regina wants Robin, ergo they want Regina to have Robin.

YaddaYadda · January 30, 2015

Somehow a conversation about how much Marian sacrificed for Robin and how she'd made him into the best version of himself (both requirements in this show's True Love definition) led Robin to go off and have crypt sex with Regina. What the hell was that about? I wouldn't want anyone in a relationship with a man like that. He even tells Regina that being with her is dishonorable. This is supposed to be True Love? I don't understand it. Is there anyone out there that ships Outlaw Queen that can explain to me how this works for them?

I did not get this either. I thought this conversation was supposed to remind Robin why he fell in love with Marian as well. When someone puts this much fate in you, sees so much in you, the potential...how he went running the other way to Regina, I will never understand.

But it almost seems as though the writers wanna sabotage OQ or they wanna be saying well Marian did all of this for him, turned him into the Robin Hood of legend and yet, he doesn't love her. Oh well!!

I'm just glad Marian decided that she wanted to be chosen, be the one as opposed to someone douchenozzle was with out of obligation.

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