Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[orza]

Regina is Henry's mother. He just spent a significant amount of time with her, during which she didn't remember him. He also saw how she was mortally wounded saving him and how upset he was. It is a normal reaction for him to be a clingy now and want to stay close to his mother. That's how kids, even teenagers, react when they have just experienced something frightening or upsetting. They want to be close to their parents. The scene told us that Henry and Regina have come a long way. In spite of all they have been through together just now, but also in the past, Henry and Regina are a close-knit family.

[mjgchick]

I think CS is so much better developed than OQ. But my problem with CS is that Hook's actions are completely whitewash and we all need to perceive Hook as a love sick puppy for Emma.

I find it troubling in that even in Season 4, Emma still never finds out the bad things Hook got into. It is like the writers intentionally don't have Emma to know about it because it will ruin the relationship. Like Hook blackmailing Rumple and willing to harm Belle. Emma never finding out that Hook never really helped Ariel and Eric reconcile. Her determing if being with Hook is a good choice with his history of children, like how he sold Baelfire to Peter Pan and whether she wants to be in a relationship with a man like that when she has a son.

We don't even know if Emma even knows Hook considering we don't even know if she knew he had a brother. How can see say that she trust Hook when Hook seems to only want to present the best side of her to him? Or that is at least how the show frames it.

All of the Emma has mentioned or made it seemed like she knows about it. It's just we are getting these scenes off-screen. Emma HAS seen Hook at his worse. Like someone else said he shot Belle right in front of her. I with how many times Emma has encouraged him when ever he was self loathing because of the things he's done in his past leads me to believe Emma knows quite a few awful things about him. She just doesn't care because she knows she's not a saint either. Edited May 17, 2015 by mjgchick

[Shanna Marie]

I think she has a pretty good idea of the horrible things he has done, but like she said, she chooses to see the best in him now, because he seems remorseful for the things he has done.

I think that's the key, that he's not hiding the fact that he has a dark past, so it's not like he's pretending that he was a hero all along and it comes as a shock that he was bad, and he's made it clear that he now knows that the things he did were bad, and he feels remorse. I guess it would be like dating a recovering alcoholic -- if you knew that this was in his past, knew that he felt bad about the things he did when he was drinking, and knew that he was doing the work to change his life, would you be shocked and horrified to learn about each bad thing he did when he was drinking, or would you just accept that as part of his past that he's turning away from? You wouldn't expect him to present a list of every bad thing he did before he met you that doesn't affect you. Emma keeps telling him he's a different man now, so she seems to be going with a clean slate idea.

 

Speaking of conversations that never happen, there are a lot of big things where we don't know what the other characters know, and whether or not they know should affect their relationships.

 

For instance, who knows that Rumple actually engineered and manipulated the curse to suit his own agenda? You'd think Regina would be furious that he conned her into murdering her own father to cast a curse that didn't even give her what she really wanted, just so he could get what he wanted. But while Rumple has tried to kill Regina with the wraith, she just snarks at him. It seems like it would be a 2+2=4 situation where anyone could do the math, but I can't really tell who might know.

 

Who besides Emma and Belle knows the full story of what went down between Hook, Milah, and Rumple? Does Henry know his grandfather murdered his grandmother? Does he know that Belle knows this? What would he think of a woman knowing this and marrying the guy anyway? Does Regina know? Was she letting her son go to work for the man who murdered his grandmother?

 

Does anyone other than Emma know that Hook traded his ship so he could reach her and bring her to Storybrooke?

 

Do we even know if Emma knows that her father had an evil twin? David mentioned his twin to Hook, but Emma referred to her father as "Prince James" when talking to Rumple in the past, so does she know that "David" isn't just his Storybrooke identity?

[Camera One]

Speaking of conversations that never happen, there are a lot of big things where we don't know what the other characters know, and whether or not they know should affect their relationships.

 

What happens in the Enchanted Forest stays in the Enchanted Forest, unless you're Snowing and needs to be shamed.

[browneyegirl89]

I think all the couples on this show suffer from a case of: "All-Important-Conversations-Happen-Off-Screen." I have to disagree about the show whitewashing Hook's actions, though. He's one of the few villains who still gets side-eyed by the good guys in the present day, even though he's been on a heroic path since he turned his ship around during the Season 2 finale. Emma definitely knows a lot about the bad things Hook has gotten into because she was present for a lot of his darkness. She was there firsthand when he left Team Princess in the cell in the Enchanted Forest. She had to sword fight him for the compass. She had to knock him out with a trashcan because he attempted to poison Rumple. (She locked him up in a locker because of that.) She knows he shot Belle because she witnessed the direct aftermath on the road and later chained him up to the hospital bed as punishment. So Emma definitely knows Hook is capable of doing bad things and doesn't take those actions lightly. (Edit: Or what pezgirl7 just posted above me.)

 

 

Emma actually does know Hook has a brother. She asked Hook about his brother in Neverland (after another important off screen conversation where Charming apparently told Emma all about it) and Hook opened up to Emma about Liam's death in the Season 3 finale. But yes, the show could do a much better job of actually letting all the characters acknowledge things that have happened on screen. This is why we should have seen some of the 6 weeks after Rumple was banished, because I'm fairly certain Hook and Emma opened up a lot to each other about their pasts. We know Emma knew about hatting The Apprentice based on her reaction during the Season 4 finale, so I'm assuming Hook told her about the blackmailing, too. (And she would've known about the blackmailing sooner if Rumple didn't delete the phone message.) Emma also knew that Hook did something bad to Ursula in his past, but she trusted him enough to fix the situation himself. And he did. So I don't think the show is whitewashing his past.

 

Hook's past with Bae and Emma learning about is something I hope the writers explore more, but I think the writers have filed that under "unimportant" along with Regina confessing about Graham's death or any conversation between Robin and Regina about how Regina was the one who captured and tortured Marian.

Emma has seen Hook some of his dirty deeds. I loved Emma when the show started but I just can't imagine the Emma in season 1 being with a man like that. She handwaves awful things he has done and I still can't fathom why she would want her son to being around a man like that. And that is also the problem with Regina/Emma friendship. Emma would just handwave Regina basically telling her tha she imprisioned Sidney the whole time and was willing to kill Marian again. I don't know why they are destorying Emma's character to prop up Hook and Regina.

[YaddaYadda]

Emma has seen Hook some of his dirty deeds. I loved Emma when the show started but I just can't imagine the Emma in season 1 being with a man like that. She handwaves awful things he has done and I still can't fathom why she would want her son to being around a man like that. And that is also the problem with Regina/Emma friendship. Emma would just handwave Regina basically telling her tha she imprisioned Sidney the whole time and was willing to kill Marian again. I don't know why they are destorying Emma's character to prop up Hook and Regina.

 And why would she ever want Henry around someone like Rumple who is the worst of the worst?  I mean if we're going there with Hook and Regina then we should go there with Rumple who has I don't know, fucked over many lives including his own son's?  Is she okay with Henry being around Rumple because Rumple sacrificed himself for the town?

 

If we're going to bring up that Hook left with the magic bean, maybe we can also bring up that Rumple wasn't going to lift a finger to help Regina save the town and he didn't lift a finger to do it because he thought Neal had died.  He didn't care that his grandson, the one thing he still had left of his son was in the town and that maybe that was worth saving.  He didn't care about saving Belle even though she was no longer Lacey.  He cared about none of that.  If Rumple lost the will to live, then too bad for the rest.  Also, Rumple wanted and tried to send Henry flying against a whole bunch of jagged rocks, you know, kill him because his ass was scared that Henry would somehow end him because of some half-baked prophecy.  

 

No one is sitting here and saying that Hook and Regina are great people, because they weren't.  And especially not in season 2 and especially not in their flashbacks (minus the ones that show them pre-assholes), but let's not pretend that Rumple is awesome and that Henry should be hanging out with him either.

 

Well, maybe she likes the "bad boys"....some women seem to be drawn to untrustworthy partners.  I can understand her attraction to Hook more than I can her insistence on being best buds with Regina.  Maybe thinking she can redeem the "bad" is part of her savior mandate where she is determined to try to save a certain group (not everyone because she can be unforgiving).

 

It may or may not have anything to do with Hook being a bad boy or whatever.  She saw him change, she decided that she would take a chance on him.  She did leave him on top of the beanstalk because she was worried about trusting him and him turning on them and with reason.  

 

Emma said sometime in season 2 after she came back from the EF (and she had invited Regina to the party) that someone had given her a chance and that maybe she wouldn't be where she is had that person not done that.  I think she just applied that logic to  both Regina and Hook.  She gave them the chance to be part of something.  She brought them in the fold and one can hate Regina and Hook as much as they want, as viewers we have to acknowledge the change in both characters.  Hook has changed a lot since season 2 and so has Regina and I think they're done flip flopping her character so much anyway.  

Edited May 22, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know why but I just have a hard time accepting Regina's change thing.  It feels false to me. Doesn't mean the writers won't continue to force it, but it also doesn't mean I have to believe it.

And that's fine, none of us have to accept anything.  We don't have to accept that Regina has changed or that Hook has changed or that Rumple was somewhat changing.

 

I have a difficult time reconciling Regina's flashbacks with her current life because they insist on showing her doing bad things (like crushing that groom/man's heart) and then turn around and insist that she's changed.  I guess on my end, I'm just done fighting the windmills when it comes to certain things on the show.  Doesn't mean I won't be back at doing in season 5 because I'm sure they'll do something that will make me bang my head on the walls and facepalm and then cry uncle all at once.  I think we all know the drill.

 

Right now though, I'm in a state of serenity and I'm keeping it that way ;)

[jhlipton]

 something that will make me bang my head on the walls and facepalm and then cry uncle all at once.  

 

GIF when it happens please!

[Rumsy4]

It may or may not have anything to do with Hook being a bad boy or whatever.  She saw him change, she decided that she would take a chance on him.  She did leave him on top of the beanstalk because she was worried about trusting him and him turning on them and with reason.  

 

Emma said sometime in season 2 after she came back from the EF (and she had invited Regina to the party) that someone had given her a chance and that maybe she wouldn't be where she is had that person not done that.  I think she just applied that logic to  both Regina and Hook.  She gave them the chance to be part of something.  She brought them in the fold and one can hate Regina and Hook as much as they want, as viewers we have to acknowledge the change in both characters.  Hook has changed a lot since season 2 and so has Regina and I think they're done flip flopping her character so much anyway.  

 

That's the key. Emma's been on the wrong side of the law before. She was given a second chance, and she wants to do the same thing with other people. Emma felt an instant attraction for Hook. But she did not act on it because she couldn't trust him. She only started trusting him slowly, as he kept demonstrating steadily that he was changing, and that he was not going to abandon her like some many others had. She never set out to reform him. Rumbelle is the relationship that fits that trope in this show, and cynically enough, Belle has not been able to reform her monster yet. 

 

I too have come to accept that Regina is supposed to be a reforming villain, who gets a lot of leeway from her erstwhile victims. I don't like it, and I think she is still going to keep flip flopping, but there it is. But frankly, I don't get how people can still wonder at Emma trusting Hook. He has proven more than once that he will sacrifice anything and risk his life to protect Emma and Henry. He has been working hard to reverse his mistakes (like hatting the apprentice and the fairies, restoring Ursula's Happy Ending). He doesn't spend time blaming other people for his wrongs. And he has applied his past experience to help Emma keep away from darkness and revenge more than once. I don't know what more people want. I get not shipping something. I don't get Outlaw Queen, for instance. But saying that Emma only likes Hook because he fits the bad boy trope, or that she hand waves his past, seems like a huge misreading of the show, IMO. Even recently, she told Hook that she loves when people find the right path along the way. That's not hand-waving away his past as a revenge-obsessed pirate. That's acknowledging that he not that person any longer.

Edited May 22, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

He has proven more than once that he will sacrifice anything and risk his life to protect Emma and Henry.

 

Not just her and Henry, but her parents too.  When Zelena threatened them and Henry to him, his reply was "you'll not go anywhere near them".  If it came down to his life vs Snowing and Henry, he would not hesitate.

 

In any case...

[RadioGirl27]

But frankly, I don't get how people can still wonder at Emma trusting Hook. He has proven more than once that he will sacrifice anything and risk his life to protect Emma and Henry. He has been working hard to reverse his mistakes (like hatting the apprentice and the fairies, restoring Ursula's Happy Ending). He doesn't spend time blaming other people for his wrongs. And he has applied his past experience to help Emma keep away from darkness and revenge more than once. I don't know what more people want. I get not shipping something. I don't get Outlaw Queen, for instance. But saying that Emma only likes Hook because he fits the bad boy trope, or that she hand waves his past, seems like a huge misreading of the show, IMO. Even recently, she told Hook that she loves when people find the right path along the way. That's not hand-waving away his past as a revenge-obsessed pirate. That's acknowledging that he not that person any longer.

Yeah, this. All those Hook's haters are stuck in season 2 and they like to ignore everything that has happen since then. They dismiss all of Hook's growth and evolution and all the things he has done since he turned his ship back to Storybrooke in season 2 finale. 

[Shanna Marie]

So, say we're wiping out the past for everyone and only consider what's the present, for everyone, and how they treat their significant others (or the significant others certain people want them to have):

 

Rumple -- pretends to give Belle control of him via the dagger, but it's a fake. Goes behind her back to work on his scheme to use the hat to suck up more magical power by sucking up magical people. Lies to her about knowing anything about Elsa and Anna, and lets her feel like she's the one who doesn't deserve him. When he knows she won't approve of his schemes, he magically knocks her out and freezes her so she won't know what he's doing and can't object. Impersonates her friend to get the dagger back from her and quiz her about her new relationship. Hands her heart over to the guy to return to her, as though she needs his blessing to have a relationship.

 

Regina to Emma (since, let's face it, that's where most of the accusations are coming from) -- blamed her for ruining her life by not letting her murder her boyfriend's wife, claims that Emma's never had her back (in spite of Emma taking repeated risks to help or save her and standing up for her when everyone else was ready to accuse her). Snarks at her and belittles her, her taste in food, her car, her boyfriend, etc. But she did talk Emma down from shooting Lily.

 

Hook to Emma -- gave up his ship (just about everything he owned) so he could get to her and return her to her family, leaving his own world behind. Followed her through the time portal so she wouldn't be alone in the past in an unfamiliar world. Comforted her after she saw her mother executed and tried to counsel her not to give in to darkness, risked losing her forever to warn her about Rumple's scheme, believed in her magic even when she didn't, kept the faith in her when others were afraid she'd go dark, and in the alternate universe, sacrificed himself to save her and Henry.

 

I still think that Hook comes out ahead if you include the past because most of his past bad actions weren't directly aimed at Emma, and way too many of Regina's past bad actions were aimed directly at Emma and her parents. But the important thing about a relationship is what's happening in the present. It's unhealthy to keep bringing up the past unless it's relevant to the current pattern of behavior. So someone who was bad and acknowledges that and turns his life around to be nothing but supportive? Leave the past in the past. Someone who currently is snide and dismissive even when being "good" and "nice" and who has a history of trying to kill you? Possibly a danger sign.

[pezgirl7]

Someone who currently is snide and dismissive even when being "good" and "nice" and who has a history of trying to kill you? Possibly a danger sign.

Earlier, I was trying to think of a word to describe Regina, and snide is the word my brain couldn't come up with. The reason I don't I have a problem with Emma and Hook is because almost every time something bad that he has done is brought up, you can see the regret and embarrassment in his eyes. But with Regina, even though she is not the evil person she was, when her past misdeeds are brought up, she doesn't seem to show much regret. She even makes jokes about it, like "I've conquered realms in less time.". It's the lack of empathy that causes me to wonder why Emma would want to be friends with Regina.

[Rumsy4]

But she has worked so haaard for her Happy Ending... :-p

[Shanna Marie]

It's the lack of empathy that causes me to wonder why Emma would want to be friends with Regina.

It's the lack of empathy that makes me think that Regina has a lot of work to do (I mean real work, not just refraining from killing people) before she's ready to be in a relationship with anyone. She still hasn't managed to make the connection between the things she feels and the things other people feel (like the fact that other people have feelings, too, and might also get sad, angry, etc.) or the connection between the things she's done to others and the way that might make them feel, and how it compares to how she feels. She never seemed to realize that the sadness she felt about being separated from Henry might compare to how Snow and David felt about being separated from Emma. She never had the slightest idea that the way she felt when Robin went back to Marian might be anything like what Snow felt when she gave David memories of being married to Kathryn, or what Emma might have felt when Regina murdered Graham. She never had the lightbulb moment of "oh, so this thing I'm experiencing now is like what I did to others. Yikes!" Even in her relationship with Robin, she's been utterly lacking in empathy. She had just had the conversation with Robin in which he talked about the pain he felt when he lost Marian, and then she learned she was the reason he lost Marian, and instead of feeling bad because she'd caused so much pain to someone she claimed to love, she could only focus on how she felt to have her life disrupted by Marian's return. When she found out that Zelena had murdered and impersonated Marian, and now Robin was faced with having a baby with his wife's murderer, her focus was on "how could you do this to me?" and how it was tainting her happiness with Robin, with barely a notice that he might be suffering. It would be pretty much impossible to have a happy, healthy relationship with someone who can only notice her own feelings and makes no connection between her actions and the feelings of others. You'd have to walk on eggshells to avoid causing her any distress, but she wouldn't care what happened to you or how you felt.

[mjgchick]

Not just her and Henry, but her parents too.  When Zelena threatened them and Henry to him, his reply was "you'll not go anywhere near them".  If it came down to his life vs Snowing and Henry, he would not hesitate.

 

In any case...

Didn't he also tell Gold to leave the town alone as well during Shattered Sights?

[Dani-Ellie]

I loved Emma when the show started but I just can't imagine the Emma in season 1 being with a man like that.

 

Okay, but here's the thing: Emma now is not the same Emma from season 1. None of the characters are the same people as they were in season 1. And frankly, in my opinion, none of them should be, because we just finished season four. There's no character development if all the characters remain the same throughout the series.

 

Things in Emma's life are vastly different now than they were in season 1. She has parents, a son, friends ... a family. She has a stable, loving support system. She's a lot more open now than she was before, and in my opinion, this is a good thing. Emma the bail bondsperson was of course badass, but Emma the bail bondsperson was also profoundly lonely and deeply unhappy. I adored Emma from the jump, because I wanted so very badly for her to find her happiness. And I still love her now, because she's found it. She has it within in her grasp; now the fight is to keep it.

 

Having that love and that support and that happiness in her life ... it's going to change her. It's going to open her up. It's going to make her blossom.

 

In terms of why Emma would want to be with Hook, I do think it's important to take into consideration that when they first met, Emma pretty much couldn't stand the guy. It's not like she saw him and started fawning all over him. She watched him be a jerk ... and she watched him take the steps to change. Emma is presented as a very forgiving person. She's been shown to offer people second chances. I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that she would offer Hook a second chance like she did with Regina, as mentioned above. And I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that she would fall in love with him once he started to change and she liked the person he became. She even said to him, "I like when people find their good hearts along the way."

Edited May 22, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[Shanna Marie]

I loved Emma when the show started but I just can't imagine the Emma in season 1 being with a man like that.

I'm not sure I can imagine season one Emma being with anyone, which is kind of the point. She hadn't really even opened up with Graham before he died. There was potential there, but she hadn't lowered any walls, and she was kind of looking for excuses to reject him. She probably thought more of him after he died than she did beforehand because he became safe then -- someone she could think about and say "if only" with absolutely zero threat of having to actually open up to him and be in any kind of trusting relationship.

 

I also can't imagine Emma being with season 2 Hook -- but that's the point of his story. Yeah, he was hot, seemed to get her and was her cheerleader from the start (like him gushing over how brilliant she was at the top of the beanstalk), but he was a walking open wound who was still putting his revenge ahead of everything else. Even if Emma had decided to trust him on the beanstalk, there's a good chance he would have done something to her similar to what he did to Ursula. If it came down to choosing her or his revenge, he'd have chosen revenge. She wasn't at all interested in him at that time. She held him in contempt. She didn't see the good in him, wasn't optimistic about him being able to change. She just flat-out didn't care.

 

But then he changed. He thought he'd achieved his revenge and realized it meant nothing -- on his own, with no prodding from anyone else. He realized that it was his own fault that people he respected held him in contempt. He realized he'd screwed up every chance he'd had in the past couple of centuries by being so focused on revenge, and he turned his life around. He had to earn Emma's trust -- by offering his ship and the magic bean to take them to Neverland to find Henry, by saving David's life, by choosing to tell them about Neal instead of keeping that to himself, by putting himself on the line to help capture the Shadow, by finding her in New York and bringing her to her family, by helping her with Henry in the aftermath of Neal's death, by helping her and her family fight Zelena, by following her through the time portal, by helping her set the timeline right, by comforting her through one of the worst experiences of her life, by showing that he'd learned his lesson in being able to talk about where he went wrong, by believing in her every step of the way and continuing to have faith even when she couldn't, and then by having given up everything to be with her -- and not having ever used that as leverage. All of that happened between the time he was bad and the time she first kissed him for real and they started a relationship.

 

Both of them have changed. She's learned to open up and accept love and see the best in people. He's learned where and how he went wrong and is doing everything he can to find the good man he used to be.

[mjgchick]

 

I'm not sure I can imagine season one Emma being with anyone, which is kind of the point. She hadn't really even opened up with Graham before he died.

S1 Emma probably would have boned S2 Hook and then left without leaving a note let's be honest here.

 

Emma was able to forgive Neal for leaving her and even considered giving him another chance and Hook's the one people can't fathom her being with?

 

As for Regina, I can also see her wanting to give her another chance as well, like others have said Emma's a very forgiving person and that's because in the past she felt like she regretted giving Lily a second (or was it a third with the retcon?) chance. She forgave Elsa after she nearly froze her to death. That is a forgiving person to me.

Edited May 22, 2015 by mjgchick

[KingOfHearts]

But she has worked so haaard for her Happy Ending... :-p

Well you know, it was all blood, sweat and tears.

 

 

They probably think giving [Will] the "grand romance" with Belle is seeing much more of him.

It's sad because Scarlet Beauty wasn't even a real romance, nor did it amount to anything. We never got to hear Will talk about Belle or see them in scenes together by themselves. There is no love triangle because she said "I never loved Will". The Rumpbelle angst was already there without shoehorning in another relationship. Instead of seeing Belle coming to grips with being independent, she runs into the arms of another man while actually still in love with her original one.

 

Why does this show treat romance as the solution to everything? Wasn't this the same show that did the platonic TLK before it was cool?

Edited May 23, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Dianthus]

pezgirl7, on 22 May 2015 - 12:04 PM, said:

Earlier, I was trying to think of a word to describe Regina, and snide is the word my brain couldn't come up with. The reason I don't I have a problem with Emma and Hook is because almost every time something bad that he has done is brought up, you can see the regret and embarrassment in his eyes. But with Regina, even though she is not the evil person she was, when her past misdeeds are brought up, she doesn't seem to show much regret. She even makes jokes about it, like "I've conquered realms in less time.". It's the lack of empathy that causes me to wonder why Emma would want to be friends with Regina.

So much this... when Blue finally gets around to de-hatting The Apprentice, Hook can barely even look at the guy. Not only does he regret the bad things he did of his own accord, he feels just as bad if not worse about what he did under Rumple's control. He doesn't whine or make excuses or blame others for his mistakes, unlike Reggie. It's one of the (many) reasons I love him and CS as a couple.

[Mari]

Emma was able to forgive Neal for leaving her and even considered giving him another chance and Hook's the one people can't fathom her being with?

 

As for Regina, I can also see her wanting to give her another chance as well, like others have said Emma's a very forgiving person and that's because in the past she felt like she regretted giving Lily a second (or was it a third with the retcon?) chance. She forgave Elsa after she nearly froze her to death. That is a forgiving person to me.

I waffle on this.

 

Sometimes, I completely agree it's because Emma's forgiving.

 

However, I've also wondered if it's not because Emma's forgiving, but because these are people in her life that she's grown used to having, and if she doesn't "forgive" them, and overlook what they've done, they'll leave, and she'll have to start relationships over.

[Shanna Marie]

S1 Emma probably would have boned S2 Hook and then left without leaving a note let's be honest here.

I kind of suspect that S1 Emma would have been more interested in S2 Hook than she would be in S4 Hook. She doesn't seem to have that big a problem with the bad past, given that she was also a criminal and she deals with criminals professionally. If she knew from the start that the guy was bad news, she wouldn't have to worry about him hurting her because she'd be expecting it and would probably bail on him before he got the chance. S4 Hook would have scared S1 Emma to death -- not because of his dark past but because he's so 100% all-in and emotionally open with her. With a guy that madly in love with her with that high an opinion of her, she'd be waiting for the other shoe to drop because she'd have a hard time letting herself believe it. The walls would have come up and she'd have fled in terror. She had to first open up to Henry, then to her parents, before she was able to accept any kind of romantic relationship, especially with a guy who wears his heart on his sleeve like that.

 

Why does this show treat romance as the solution to everything? Wasn't this the same show that did the platonic TLK before it was cool?

Yeah, it's a little annoying for Regina to give lip service to the idea that her happy ending isn't about a man -- in spite of the man being the only thing that was missing during her season-long search for a happy ending -- but then end up with a man anyway. And for Belle to be paired off right away, offscreen, as soon as she ditched her husband. It might have been fun to have a more carefree, single gal Belle, enjoying her independence, making more friends, rather than have her instantly getting a boyfriend -- especially since they then had her declare that the whole time she was still in love with Rumple. I guess they were just looking for something for Will to do. He had no role in anything else that was going on.

[Serena]

I don't get, why couldn't Will and Belle have become BFFs and bonded about having evil significant others or whatever? Why did they need to also be kissing?

[YaddaYadda]

I thought they would use Belle's time away from Rumple to try and integrate her more into Storybrooke and I'm not talking about their librarian, researcher/data analyst. Or they could have, I don't know, used to her to start fleshing out Will since they wanted them to rebound with each other.  

 

The whole of 4B was very disappointing from a character standpoint.

[Rumsy4]

In retrospect, Will/Belle makes Belle look desperate for a boyfriend, and selfish. She sortof used Will to make herself feel good. It seems clear that she was afraid Rumple would hurt her when he came back to Storybrooke in revenge for her kicking him out. She told Hook!Rumple that the Dagger was her only protection against him, and later tried to hide behind Will when Rumple walked in on her and Will in the shop.

When Belle realized that Rumple wasn't going to give her the Milah-treatment, she immediately melted. As long as Rumple treats her better than he does other people (which is admittedly not much), Belle takes that as a sign of Rumple's goodness. It's blind and dangerous. But that's seems the simplest interpretation of her behavior.

[pezgirl7]

I. Just. Can't.

http://banditmills.tumblr.com/post/119293496697/mysweetcupoftea-lanas-reaction-to-emmas

Regina is protective of Emma and feels a love and a care towards her? I know actors sometimes have to flesh out the story in their heads to have something to work with, but I don't think I've ever seen any of what Lana said come across on screen.

[Emma]

Um no. Just no. She can't be serious. Get out of here with that talk.

[daxx]

I. Just. Can't.

http://banditmills.tumblr.com/post/119293496697/mysweetcupoftea-lanas-reaction-to-emmas

Regina is protective of Emma and feels a love and a care towards her? I know actors sometimes have to flesh out the story in their heads to have something to work with, but I don't think I've ever seen any of what Lana said come across on screen.

I think the word Lana was looking for is that Regina feels dismissive and antagonistic towards Emma.

[Mathius]

And even if Regina does care for Emma, SISTERLY? She's her freaking step-grandmother!

[Shanna Marie]

Warm and protective toward someone she's tried to kill multiple times, starting at birth? And about the nicest thing she's said has been "I don't want to kill you"? Yeah, that's warm.

 

Ooookay.

 

This would have been a lot easier to buy if it had been Regina seeking Emma's friendship -- realizing that she was pretty much alone, noticing the Emma is at least trying to be civil, and making some awkward attempts at friendship. That would even have had some comedy potential -- how would the Evil Queen go about making friends? I guess bringing over an apple turnover would be right out. But it became gross when the person who was the victim is the one begging for friendship and doing all the friendship work, even as she's constantly belittled and sneered at, even for little things like how she eats, and criticized for how she does her job. If someone talked to me the way Regina talks to Emma, I would cut that person out of my life and go out of my way to avoid them because who needs that? Even with them sharing parenting of Henry, Henry seems to be old enough to just head over to whichever house he's visiting at the moment without any of those uncomfortable child exchange situations. And yet the writers (and apparently one of the actors) think they're portraying a nice friendship.

[Curio]

Translated to text for easier reading:
 

I wasn't shocked [Emma sacrificed herself] because I think these are two women that have sacrificed a lot for one another and they do have a friendship and a kinship that's very unique that surprised them both to some degree. Like, "God, we started hating one another and now all we could do is protect one another."

It's been unfolding and leading to that so I wasn't shocked at all. At times, with Regina, she feels like this sisterly bond to Emma. There's a love and there's a care for her. She's very protective of her and vice versa. So, I wasn't really shocked because it kind of falls in line with their relationship.

 
I have to defend Lana here a little bit, because I'm sure she's just repeating what Adam & Eddy have told her about how they envisioned Regina's arc for 4B and how they view the Emma/Regina "friendship." The problem is that most of what she's talking about happened because of a whirlwind relationship arc that literally started only half a season ago. (Although, I'm scratching my head at when Regina has sacrificed herself for Emma "a lot." Regina has helped battle some bad guys with the entire main group sometimes, but she's never actually helped Emma specifically "a lot.") 

 

The thing that makes the whole Emma and Regina friendship seem so forced and unrealistic is that the writers chose to not show any of the progress between their 4A antagonistic behavior to 4B's instant friendship. Throughout nearly all of 4A, Regina wanted nothing to do with Emma, blamed her for all of her unhappiness, and was a straight up bitch to her for several scenes while Emma just took the abuse. And then suddenly, the writers realized they had to drastically change gears and make them BFFs, so they basically turned a light switch on and forced this friendship on us with no build up. We literally went from Emma using Regina's true hate towards her as a way to break free from the ribbons and Regina not wanting Emma's company as she sulked at the counter during the end of "Heroes of Villains" - to Emma buying shots for her and being 100% on board with Operation Mongoose, promising Regina she'd give her her happy ending, and offering root beers and kale salads. That was an insanely quick amount of time to go from antagonism to friendship on screen, and it's why I can't buy their current state of friendship and makes Emma's sacrifice Lana is talking about frustrating.

 

If you think about it, all the "unfolding and leading" that she's talking about only happened in a quick 9 episode arc, because their friendship didn't even start until the premiere of 4B. And then the writers had those 9 episodes to slap it in our faces until the 2 hour finale where we were supposed to be completely invested in it to the point where we could buy Emma sacrificing herself for Regina's happiness. Ironically, the relationship the writers pushed off to the side the most during 4B (Emma and Hook and her parents) had more emotional resonance to it during that final dagger scene than the friendship the writers were attempting to sell us the most during 4B.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Curio

[KAOS Agent]

Someone give me an example of Regina sacrificing for Emma. Just one. That hasn't happened. And it sure as hell hasn't happened "a lot". I know people like to point to Regina giving Emma good memories of raising Henry, but that was required for Henry's wellbeing. Otherwise, those two would have crossed the town line and looked at each other wondering who the hell they were in a car with. Henry would have lost his entire lifetime of memories, so that does not work as a sacrifice for Emma.

 

If this show is seriously telling me that Emma sacrificed her happiness and that of her friends and family for only one other person, particularly as that person is the one responsible for her miserable childhood and the deaths and misery of countless other people, I'm done. Regina may be the golden child, but there is a limit to what I as a viewer will accept. If only Regina was in danger there, then let her death be her final act of redemption. Stop having other characters throw themselves under the bus because somehow Regina "deserves" happiness more. She does not. It's incredibly unhealthy to show Emma giving up her life for a woman who just weeks before in show time was screaming at her and hurling all kinds of abuse and whose hatred of Emma was used to remove the ribbons. Yes, Emma, your abuser deserves her happiness more than you or your family. Obviously, she worked so much harder than Hook or Snowing to be a better person to atone for her heinous acts. Ick. And this is why I don't read Lana's interviews.

[YaddaYadda]

Someone give me an example of Regina sacrificing for Emma. Just one.

 

I think Regina poofing herself out of the car when Chernabog was attacking them because she thought it would follow her is the first thing Regina actually did to try and protect Emma.  She also went undercover at the Snow's behest.

 

The thing that makes the whole Emma and Regina friendship seem so forced and unrealistic is that the writers chose to not show any of the progress between their 4A antagonistic behavior to 4B's instant friendship.

Well there was that horrendous episode 4x05 which as far as I'm concerned is one of the reasons I'm resisting this whole whatever!friendship.  If Regina had shown some growth and not been a bitch and expressed herself like a normal person...she could've said that she was angry with Emma but understood why she saved Marian or that whatever relationship she and Emma are building for Henry's sake is more important than the anger she feels or anything...I thought that episode showed everything that's wrong with the Emma/Regina relationship.  Since then, Regina has shown some growth, but it's not nearly enough for me to accept them as BFFs.

 

And even if Regina does care for Emma, SISTERLY? She's her freaking step-grandmother!

And that's fine...I mean the whole 28 year curse, people who shouldn't be contemporaries but are anyway.  I'd rather she says sisterly than other things that might land people in hot water and open them up to abuse.

[Rumsy4]

What a unique concept: victims have to sacrifice themselves for the happiness of their reforming abusers! Wait...

[BoPeeps]

Emma is The Savior. She does what saviors do...selflessly sacrifice. Regina is the Evil Queen...she fucks with things. Hard wired, both of them!

Emma and Regina share a love and motherly bond for Henry. They both are emotional messes because of their youth and trouble with weird parenting. They both have tempers. They both have walls. They are both control freaks. They both have magic. Both are powerful. They are both caught in a very small insular universe together in any realm. There are a lot of reasons they would be drawn to one another with cautionary reservations. I actually enjoy that dynamic. Two very strong main character women...different but equally fascinating and flawed. The show, for me, would be boring without their interaction. Love/hate/like/dislike/disgust/grudging respect.

I don't see any sexual attraction displayed or intimated between them ever and find the obsession over that imagined dynamic (other than fanfic, which is a creative "savior" in and of itself) uninteresting.

Lana is not Regina. Jen is not Emma. I get mildly uncomfortable and sometimes more irritated when fans let the character frustration and annoyance spill over to include the actual women ...and take a giant step back from that.

But character-wise we are talking about them bigtime, and that is an Internet marketing dept wet dream (heh). They feed that teased beast but because they aren't exactly brilliant about it, that beast is now chewing up their asses. Background ugliness that is bleeding over the line of common civility is taking an unattractive toll but ultimately, the story they are unfolding on screen is a complicated, addictive, frustrating relationship between two powerhouse, emotional women.

And it is keeping the women of the fandom very involved. Ratings gold.

[YaddaYadda]

Ratings gold.

 

Well, I'm not really sure about this part. 

[Curio]

I think Regina poofing herself out of the car when Chernabog was attacking them because she thought it would follow her is the first thing Regina actually did to try and protect Emma.  She also went undercover at the Snow's behest.

The Chernabog kind of counts, but for the majority of that scene, it was actually Emma's plan to try and drive the monster out of town to not only protect the rest of Storybrooke, but also protect Regina because they initially thought the Chernabog was coming after The Evil Queen. So even in that example, it was more about Emma trying to help Regina again. Regina only ditched out at the last second when it seemed like the plan was doomed.

And then going under cover for Snow felt more like a favor to Snow and helping her keep the egg baby secret than specifically doing something for Emma. So again, Regina wasn't really doing something only for Emma, she was helping to keep Snowing's elaborate lie go on a little longer.

I'd say the only examples I can think of where Regina specifically had Emma's well-being in mind was when she refused to give into Rumple's demand about Robin Hood in the crypt because she didn't want to see Rumple turn Emma into a monster, and Regina attempting to talk Emma down from killing Lily on the road.

 

Emma and Regina share a love and motherly bond for Henry. They both are emotional messes because of their youth and trouble with weird parenting. They both have tempers. They both have walls. They are both control freaks. They both have magic. Both are powerful. They are both caught in a very small insular universe together in any realm. There are a lot of reasons they would be drawn to one another with cautionary reservations. I actually enjoy that dynamic. Two very strong main character women...different but equally fascinating and flawed. The show, for me, would be boring without their interaction. Love/hate/like/dislike/disgust/grudging respect. [...] And it is keeping the women of the fandom very involved. Ratings gold.

 

Yes—Emma and Regina are two very strong-willed, Type A personalities, and sometimes those two personality types clashing can be entertaining. Their dynamic in Season 1 and Season 3 worked for me. However, in order for a friendship to form between two strong-willed personalities, the writers felt the need to strip one of the characters of her core character traits and become submissive just so they could become BFFs in 4B. For me, that's not okay. (And I have to respectfully disagree about their current dynamic being "ratings gold." While there's no way of proving the correlation, ever since the writers have been trying to show a more friendly dynamic between Emma and Regina, the ratings have dropped to series lows. Personally, if the writers wanted to develop a friendship between two women who are both Alpha Females, they should have spent longer than a half season on it and actually showed the progression more organically.)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

The Chernabog kind of counts, but for the majority of that scene, it was actually Emma's plan to try and drive the monster out of town to not only protect the rest of Storybrooke, but also protect Regina because they initially thought the Chernabog was coming after The Evil Queen. So even in that example, it was more about Emma trying to help Regina again. Regina only ditched out at the last second when it seemed like the plan was doomed.

 

This is how over the top analytical us see it.  But my friend who isn't obsessed and has stopped thinking about the show an hour after the finale aired doesn't.  The show is definitely not written for us.  

 

Eh, I tried!  

 

I'm hoping that Emma being the new Dark One will limit her interaction with Regina and that Zelena's pregnancy will just take up more of her time than anything else.  And now that Lana is talking about Regina and Emma having more of a sisterly bond, I wonder if Zelena will managed to turn herself green in Storybrooke.  I mean she did it in the AU.  I think that might be entertaining for maybe 5 seconds.

[RadioGirl27]

Nothing about the present relationship between Emma and Regina feels natural and organic. The friendship is terribly forced and that is reflected in their scenes together. If you compare any of their scenes together with the Emma/Mary Margaret scenes from season 1 or Emma/Elsa or, hell, Regina/Tink, you can see it. And that's because there is no ground for that friendship. Not only Regina hasn't done anything to make that friendship work (I'm still waiting for her to show some remorse for all the pain she has caused to Emma and her family), but they don't have anything in common except for magic and Henry. If we ever get a non plot related scene with them, what they are going to talk about? "Hey, Emma, remember that day I killed Henry when I was trying to kill you", "Oh, Regina, this is are the same pop tarts I used to steal when I was living in the street", "Emma, I have to tell you the story of when I tried to kill your mother for the first time. It's so funny. You are going to love it".

Edited May 26, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[Camera One]

There are times when I've liked Emma and Regina working together, like during the road trip to find Lily, but this relationship needed to build much more slowly and convincingly.  I find Regina and Snow's relationship and scenes even less natural and organic than Regina and Emma.  At least with Regina/Emma, I could pretend that Emma just didn't know about how Regina acted back in the Enchanted Forest.  But that was no longer the case after the 3B finale.  I was relieved when they kept Snow out of Regina's orbit for the first few episodes of 4A, but A&E came back with full force in the 2-hour "Smash the Mirror".

[Shanna Marie]

I find Regina and Snow's relationship and scenes even less natural and organic than Regina and Emma.  At least with Regina/Emma, I could pretend that Emma just didn't know about how Regina acted back in the Enchanted Forest.

Realistically, no one in Storybrooke should ever want to be friends with Regina. I've cut people out of my life just because I got tired of too much drama about keeping score over who last e-mailed whom and who initiated more social get-togethers (and it doesn't count as initiating unless it happens, so you can keep it from happening by not responding to invitations or waiting until the last second when other plans have already been made and still maintain the upper hand in the scorekeeping, geez, grow up, but I digress). With someone who's ever tried to kill me, there would have to be restraining orders and bodyguards with shoot-to-kill orders. I'm not sure I'd even take the chance if she apologized with lots of groveling and demonstrated that she'd changed. It would be nice that she did that, but she could go be a good person over there, far away from me. However, I can kind of buy Snow's relationship with her more than Emma because Snow is from that fairy tale world where apparently you're either a hero or villain, so if you're not a villain, you're a hero, and Snow grew up with Regina as her mother -- probably having her in that role longer than her own mother was. While Regina may have been cool and distant, it doesn't sound like she was openly abusive, and Snow didn't find out until much later that Daniel died and Regina blamed her. If she'd known that all along, she would have known Regina's attitude was unreasonable, but instead, she seemed to just think that Daniel left, possibly due to Cora's interference because Snow told Cora about him, and if that had actually been true, it wouldn't have been all that unreasonable for Snow to blame herself. So Snow grew up believing that Regina's unhappiness was all her fault. It would be hard to just switch that off upon learning the truth. That combination of loving Regina like a mother and feeling responsible for her unhappiness would possibly lead to her want to restore a relationship with her. On the other hand, Emma is from our world and a lot more pragmatic, with no reason to feel responsible for a psycho bitch from hell, so it's hard to imagine her wanting anything to do with a woman she watched abuse her son and who tried to kill her, and who's ultimately responsible for the way her life has been and who still refuses to take any responsibility for her own actions.

[KingOfHearts]

So... Emma and Henry. What happened to that relationship? I thought it was a major part of the show. We don't see any real interaction with them any more. Henry is far more fond of his adoptive mother. Sure there's a few jokes and lines about hot chocolate with cinnamon, but I don't really call that character bonding. The last really personal scene between the two I can remember was when they discussed Neal. (There was another scene cut concerning Neal that was far deeper.) It's always Henry running for Regina or sitting in group get-togethers with everyone else.

 

I'm not a fan of Henry, but I'm really not sure what's going on between those two. There's scenes like where he mentions a disapproval for Hook casually, and we're never given any clarification of why or how he feels this way. Even though Emma joining Operation Mongoose was one of the setups for 4B, she didn't work with Henry on it at all. Their new relationship dynamics from the Missing Year seem to be dropped too.

Edited May 27, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

So... Emma and Henry. What happened to that relationship? I thought it was a major part of the show.

 

I think you answered your own question with this:

Henry is far more fond of his adoptive mother.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Curio

[Mari]

For the first half of season 4, I think it was because they needed someone to share scenes with Regina during the Frozen arc, and Henry was an available, Regina-friendly character. During the second half of season four, they were making Emma dark and pushing the Regina/Emma friendship. As a result, Emma's scenes with Henry were cut to the minimum, just like the way they cut back quite a bit on Emma's scenes with Hook. Henry would have been emotionally grounding, supportive person for Emma, and would have further weakened the dark, evil Emma storyline.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think you answered your own question with this:

 

Henry would have been emotionally grounding, supportive person for Emma, and would have further weakened the dark, evil Emma storyline.

 

 

For the first half of season 4, I think it was because they needed someone to share scenes with Regina during the Frozen arc, and Henry was an available, Regina-friendly character.

The showrunners neglected one of their founding relationships because the PLOT required it? It seems like "Plot > Characters" is the solution to all questions regarding this show. (It truly is, though.)

[Amerilla]

For the first half of season 4, I think it was because they needed someone to share scenes with Regina during the Frozen arc, and Henry was an available, Regina-friendly character.

 

Yes, primarily.

 

I also think that it's because they don't need Henry to be Emma's "identity" anymore. Her learning to embrace her role as "mother" was so critical in S1 and so prominent in S2 and most of S3, but really fizzled as an on-screen story after the Missing Year, as they begin the process of transitioning Emma into what we're seeing in S4 into S5, which is someone struggling with much different identity issues than she was earlier in the series.

 

I think it's been a mistake on the part of the writers to shelve it, not because I care all that much about Emma or Henry as characters, but because I think it anchored the show in a way it really needs. So few of the characters are given any voice or space to talk to one another, to engage with each other, and so much time is wasted on bogus separations and phoney-baloney "conflicts" resolved with a teary hug, but Emma and Henry, in the glory days, felt real.

 

It's sort of like Rumpel's black heart - it was the little bit of red left in an otherwise dead emotional landscape.  

 

The showrunners neglected one of their founding relationships because the PLOT required it? It seems like "Plot > Characters" is the solution to all questions regarding this show. (It truly is, though.)

 

Pretty sure "PLOT > Character" is the show's unofficial motto. Could we spread a rumor that Adam actually has that tattooed on his butt?

[Shanna Marie]

The Mary Sue writing for Regina really hasn't done her any favors in the relationship department. If she were a real person, then it would be lovely that everything worked out so easily for her, but as a fictional character in a television drama, it's terribly shortchanged her from some stuff that should be really meaty (if I were the actress, that's what I'd have been campaigning to the producers about -- she's really been robbed).

 

Take the relationship with Robin. Her getting into a relationship at all should have been a really big deal because this is her first real adult relationship that's mutual. There was her first love with Daniel when she was young, then a loveless arranged marriage, then Graham the sex slave. This would essentially be like dating for the first time starting in her late 30s, since she has zero experience with courtship or dating (Daniel was essentially the boy next door). That's scary and awkward. They managed to convey the fear of going into the first real relationship after a teenage heartbreak with Emma and Hook, and Emma at least had probably done some moderately conventional dating to meet her short-term flings, but they forgot this with Regina. And there's the fact that Regina's entire adult life was based around her reaction to what happened to Daniel. Everything she did, every decision she made, was about avenging his death and the fact that she fully believed she'd lost all chance of happiness with him. She murdered her father because she thought that was the only way to achieve her happiness after Daniel's death. Moving on from that should have been a big deal, essentially an acknowledgment that she'd wasted her life (and her father's life). And yet when Robin came on the scene she saw the tattoo and seemed to just flip over to that being her sure bet for happiness. Just imagine the kind of emotional arc the Evil Queen finding real love could have been. But she just got pixie dust and a tattoo.

 

There was some meat to her relationship with Henry during the phase when she was trying to live up to Henry's expectations early in season two. But this is where the campaigning to make their relationship better actually hurt her in the writing department because they just skimmed over issues like her backsliding and siding with Cora and the fact that she planned to murder the whole town (she may have wiped his memory from when she told him and he didn't approve, but didn't he find out what she'd planned when they had to deal with the failsafe?), and even though they didn't get any time together from that point until the brief goodbyes after Neverland and then his memory restoration, when his memory was restored it was like nothing ever happened. And then she went straight from that to ditching him for Robin, and from that to kicking him out because of being sad about Robin, and the child had to be the one to beg to be allowed back into her life again. And yet they depict this as a healthy, loving relationship without dealing with any of the issues.

 

And then the relationships with Snow and Emma, instead of really dealing with them and letting them gradually build something new after she realized where she went wrong and started trying to learn how to be friends, they just waved a magic wand and made them all friends, with the ickiness of the victims begging for friendship and making all the first moves while Regina continues to snark at them and belittle them.

 

It's a weird case of the favorite character getting the worst writing, and that means that a lot of the central relationships on the show are awfully hollow.

[Free]

So... Emma and Henry. What happened to that relationship? I thought it was a major part of the show. We don't see any real interaction with them any more. Henry is far more fond of his adoptive mother. Sure there's a few jokes and lines about hot chocolate with cinnamon, but I don't really call that character bonding. The last really personal scene between the two I can remember was when they discussed Neal. (There was another scene cut concerning Neal that was far deeper.) It's always Henry running for Regina or sitting in group get-togethers with everyone else.

 

I'm not a fan of Henry, but I'm really not sure what's going on between those two. There's scenes like where he mentions a disapproval for Hook casually, and we're never given any clarification of why or how he feels this way. Even though Emma joining Operation Mongoose was one of the setups for 4B, she didn't work with Henry on it at all. Their new relationship dynamics from the Missing Year seem to be dropped too.

 

Probably because the writers no longer needed Henry as a plot device for Emma since she's going dark and they needed someone for Regina like she was most of 4a.  Henry no longer has to keep the drama going between Emma/Regina trying to be their mother, no longer trying to make Emma know her role as a the savior, etc.  So the writers struggle with trying to utilize him into the series anymore since it changed so much back when he actually played a more pivotal role.

[Faemonic]

The thing is, I would have bought an Emma and Regina relationship after the missing year. I was beginning to see it in Neverland, when Regina seemed to 1.) get it that she, Regina, had a part in how badly Emma grew up; and 2.) Emma got to see the good part of evil: it gets things done. After the missing year, they had a stakeout together! Where Regina asked Emma about Henry in a way that didn't seem to be an inch from torturing Emma in revenge for raising her own son for a tenth of the time that Regina got to do so! Regina taught Emma magic, and was more disappointed in Emma's wasted potential than in Emma showing up Regina as the Greatest Whitelighter Who Ever Lit! They teamed up to try to catch Zelena and make more memory potion!

 

But then the world started to sort of bend around Regina, and I suspect that expresses the belief of the creators that so-and-so thing should be this way (Regina's True Love Kiss on Henry to break the memory curse, and then Regina very suddenly being the Greatesterest Whitelighter than Glinda or Emma combined.) And that actually makes it less so.

 

It's like in Little Lord Fauntleroy where there's a paragraph showing why Ceddie is perfect, and then a scene about other characters talking about the event and saying that Ceddie is perfect, and then the narrator says that Ceddie is perfect. All of that doesn't make Ceddie perfect, it does the opposite: I hate that kid already because his informed attribute of perfection is being shoved down my throat.

 

And then there was Regina's reaction when Emma brought Marian/Zarian back. And then there was Emma's reaction to Regina's reaction to Emma bringing Marian/Zarian back. Something had gone terribly wrong and there's a very vocal part of the fandom that is cheering this on. I think I prefer stories that have a better sense of pacing and buildup.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Faemonic