Max: Get Knocked Down, Get Back Up

[maraleia]

Discuss all things Max here.

If you can think of a better sub-title please make suggestions and I'll change it.

[DarkRaichu]

All I could think of when seeing that subtitile was "nope, she clearly was for 1/3 of season 1".

 

Perhaps a more fitting sub is: "too much ambition, not enough smarts" or some derivation of that.

[Alex]

Vane never gave Max to the crew to be raped. He tried to make her escape (ep 1x03), but she was discovered and then raped by the crew. Eleanor heard her screaming, came to rescue, blamed Vane (who was for nothing), freed Max and Max decided to repay her debt by giving her body to the crew.

[CatMack]

If by "tried to make her escape" you mean "gave secret orders to have her removed from the room where she was already being raped because he had her kidnapped and put there in the first place" then yes that is correct.  Max ended up in that room being raped the first time because Anne took Max on Vane's orders.  He was directly responsible for her ending up in that rape room, and did nothing when the crew started raping her in the middle of the street.  He was their captain and supposedly a tough scary one but won't tell his crew to knock it off.  Read up on Ching Shih sometime - it's entirely possible for a pirate captain who's actually good at their job to give their crew direct orders such as "don't rape" and have them followed and remain in control.  Vane had her raped, decided maybe he felt a little bit of pity for her because of her shared experience with Eleanor (not because what was happening to her was horrific but because they had the same ex girlfriend), made the barest minimum effort towards getting her to safety, and then just basically shrugged his shoulders when his crew inadvertently foiled that plan which they didn't even know was his plan because it was a secret because apparently Vane had zero control over his crew and couldn't just tell them (again, see Ching Shih before you tell me he couldn't give an unpopular order like release the prisoner everyone was enjoying raping).  As for her going back to them after that, well see my comments about the writers making no effort in season 1 to make her a real person with believable motivations.  That's a writing failing, not a point in Vane's favor.

 

But really, look at how Max responds to Vane in this most recent episode when he initially arrives at the brothel.  He does nothing overtly threatening, has made no indication he intends to do anything to her or Jack or Anne other than spoil their reputation, but she physically recoils from him.  She's afraid.  She regains her confidence once she realizes why he's there and that she can see through his motivations, but her first reaction is fear.  She doesn't see him as the guy who "tried to make her escape" her rape.  He's the guy who put her there in the first place.  And she can see inside his head more than he probably cares for and she understands certain parts of him and that gives her the tiniest bit of power which she uses to keep as much of an even footing as she can.  But that victimization is still there too.  I though Jessica Parker Kennedy did a great job conveying that.

[Alex]

I finally watched episode 2x03 and had a rewatch on episode 1x03.

 

I beg to differ.

In 1x03, in the hut, Max has been surely beaten, but there is no evidence (I'm sorry, but her being naked is no proving evidence).that she'd been raped.

In 2x03, I don't see her recoil. She stops, looks at Vane with apprehension (Vane notices it and says she's nothing to be scared of, or something like that) and when she knows she's safe, she even makes a move towards him.

 

As for the rest of the episode, I laughed when I saw the "I angered Charles Vane" sign. And drooled on the semi-naked young Flint. And thought that Lady Hamilton is a tough woman.

[WatchrTina]

I read the story of Max and Vane very differently from you CatMack.  First of all, Anne grabbed Max back in season 1 because Max offered to sell something to Vane (and Jack and Anne) and when the exchange went down they came up empty-handed.  No pearls, no page.  That's why she got grabbed.  When we see Vane finally go to attend to her where she was being kept (and by that I mean, kill her for double-dealing), I thought he looked surprised to see his biggest, meanest crewman leaving the shack. We don't see Max being raped but from that crewman's swagger and the words he says to Vane (something like "She's all your now") it seems clear that she has been raped, possibly more than once.  But I don't think it was ever Vane's intention to chain Max to a wall and let his crew have at her.  I think the crew found out about her and they knew she was involved in the disappearance of their money (those pearls were from the ship's account, your realize) so they took their revenge on her.  Vane is partially to blame but the crew (and that one particularly nasty guy) are the real villains -- them and the pirate code that says any "prize" taken belongs to them all equally.  And Max is also partially to blame for her situation.  She knows the "rules" that govern Nassau and she broke a bunch of them, beginning when she first took the page from John and then blackmailed him into partnering with her in the sale of the page. 

 

When Vane finds out what has been going on with Max, he orders her spirited away (quietly) because he knows his crew is angry with her and won't want to give her up. If he had been successful he would have had to deal with some anger from his crew for doing that.  As for not coming to her defense in the street; at first he didn't know it was happening -- she was supposed to be on her way to the boat.  By the time he and Eleanor arrive it's too late for him to do anything.  Eleanor has already jumped to the conclusion that the gang-rape is actually Vane's fault (not true) and, after beating his crewman off with a club, she publicly banishes Vane from his livelihood.

 

What does Max do?  Instead of accepting Eleanor's protection she GIVES HERSELF to Vane's remaining crew to work off the debt and that's just gross.  5000 pesos = I don't know how may fucks but, ew.  Max is an idiot.  And by putting HERSELF in that fuck tent for the next episode she sets the stage for Anne to become so grossed out by that one guy's abusive behavior towards Max that she arranges (with Eleanor) to have him killed (oh wait, the others will seek revenge?  We'll kill them all too.)  Anne and Max come off as stupid and short-sighted throughout all this, while Eleanor comes off as ruthless. 

 

So when Max sees Vane at the brothel in this most recent episode, that fear reaction is not just because of the terrible treatment she suffered at the hands of this crew, it's also because she knows she is in large part responsible for Vane losing his pearls, losing his ship, losing Eleanor (again), and the deaths of what was left of Vane's original crew -- 8 men -- only one of whom was depicted on screen as having raped and abused her.  She ought to be scared.  The fact that Vane switches immediately into business and Max does too, reflects well on both of them.  They are moving on and not dwelling on the past.

 

Similarly, when Vane tell Anne to SIT DOWN, I'm fine with him speaking sternly to the person who actually did betray the crew for a woman.  That's what Jack has been publicly accused of (and you can see what a violation that is of the Pirate Code by the way he his being treated) but it is ANNE who actually betrayed her crew.  Vane's attitude toward her seem perfectly reasonable in that context.

 

 

I'm normally a scruff lover, but oddly enough Flint in present day does nothing for me while cleaned up past Flint is all kinds of hot.

Oh AMEN!  At first I was confused.  He looked so good in that first scene where he introduced himself to Lord Hamilton that I wasn't sure it was the same actor.

Edited February 8, 2015 by WatchrTina

[Neurochick]

What does Max do?  Instead of accepting Eleanor's protection she GIVES HERSELF to Vane's remaining crew to work off the debt and that's just gross.  5000 pesos = I don't know how may fucks but, ew.  Max is an idiot.  And by putting HERSELF in that fuck tent for the next episode she sets the stage for Anne to become so grossed out by that one guy's abusive behavior towards Max that she arranges (with Eleanor) to have him killed (oh wait, the others will seek revenge?  We'll kill them all too.)  Anne and Max come off as stupid and short-sighted throughout all this, while Eleanor comes off as ruthless.

 

 

I don't know but that sounds to me, like blaming Max for the crew raping her and blaming Max for Ann killing the crew.  I guess the crew just couldn't help themselves, and "boys will be boys."

 

And I saw Max recoil from Vane when she saw him too; I did see the fear in Max's eyes, because Vane allowed her to be raped.  

Edited February 8, 2015 by Neurochick

[dohe]

I don't know but that sounds to me, like blaming Max for the crew raping her and blaming Max for Ann killing the crew.  I guess the crew just couldn't help themselves, and "boys will be boys."

 

And I saw Max recoil from Vane when she saw him too; I did see the fear in Max's eyes, because Vane allowed her to be raped.  

That is what it sounds like to me also.  I must admit I have been taken aback by some of the posts.  It is one thing to like the character of Vane.  It is another thing to start rationalizing the indefensible.  The Vane was just a poor bystander to assault and rape defense does not work for me at all.   On a more minor note, neither does the it is awesome he is talking down to Anne vibe. 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2015 by dohe

[Alex]

Actually, I don't particularly like Vane. I find him interesting, as most of the other characters, but he's not my favourite.

I'm writing in here because I find interesting that the same scenes can be interpreted so differently. And that everybody thinks they're right. No, I'm not making fun, I'm really serious and I apologize in advance if someone finds this offending, this is not my intention. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, I'm not rationalizing the indefensible. I didn't see the things other people have seen. I just didn't see Max recoil. I still don't see it, and I rewatched the scene five times. I see, chronologically, apprehension, disgust (nothing new, Max has never liked Vane because of Eleanor), mistrust, and then, when he said er to relax, she turns her hips and chest towards him. Further in the discussion, she moves towards him and she then tries her stupid game talking about Eleanor. Twice!! Blyme, she's still very much hurt, notwithstanding what she says.

 

Concerning Max in 1x03, 

 

 

We don't see Max being raped but from that crewman's swagger and the words he says to Vane (something like "She's all your now") it seems clear that she has been raped, possibly more than once

I don't know. The reason why I think she's been beaten but not raped is because of the way she's chained to the wall. The menacles are directly in the wall, it's not a chain and I honestly don't see how she could be raped in that position. But perhaps I'm really naive and I don't want to see it.

 

Is she to blame? I don't like the word blame and I prefer to say that she was fully responsible for her actions, from start to finish: she knew what she was doing when she broke the rules and she knew Vane's men were violent. I don't exclude that she decided to give herself to Vane in order to punish Eleanor. All clients being (more or less) the same, it didn't really matter to her who was going to go with her. But it mattered to Eleanor and I think Max did that in purpose.

[Neurochick]

And that's not even mentioning that she threw in with Silver to start with. Max is not a stupid person, she knows the world that she lives in. She knows the brutality of it and that these are often not nice men.

 

 

I"m sorry but this sounds like, "she got what she deserved" to me.

[Alex]

 

I"m sorry but this sounds like, "she got what she deserved" to me.

 

Bringing this to the Max thread.

[maraleia]

Changing the subtitle DarkRaichu. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Garnett7]

 

I"m sorry but this sounds like, "she got what she deserved" to me.

 

To which I'd say read everything I said. No one "deserves" to be beaten and raped. And I don't advocate any violence against women. But this is a show about pirates set in the 1700's in a practically lawless place. The pirates of Nassau have their own code and Max has been there long enough to know that with risks comes dangers if it goes wrong. And her's with Silver went wrong and the attitude of pretty much everyone on the island was "she had to pay the piper". Now that is not me saying she "deserved it" but that is the rationale of the other Nassau citizens. I guess one of my pet peeves is anyone watching a show set in a historical time period and expecting modern day logic to apply or for the show to try applying 21st Century logic to 18th Century life.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Garnett7

[galax-arena]

Bringing the discussion over from the ep thread -

When Vane finds out what has been going on with Max, he orders her spirited away (quietly)

This implies that he decided to save her after finding out that she was being raped. IMO it was pretty clear that he was initially planning to have her killed, but only relented after he and Max had that heart-to-heart about Eleanor, and what it meant to be cast aside by her. Jack implies as much when he tells Vane that putting her on a boat wasn't what he had in mind, and what if she comes back? Vane looks at Max, remembers what she said about Eleanor, and simply says, "She won't." He softened up enough towards her to let her go, but that was only after they talked about Eleanor; and he was still responsible for putting her in that situation to begin with.

 

It is one thing to like the character of Vane.  It is another thing to start rationalizing the indefensible.  The Vane was just a poor bystander to assault and rape defense does not work for me at all. 

ITA. And man, I know that scene interpretations can be subjective and all that jazz, but to me it was so freakin' obvious that Vane knew exactly what was going on with Max in the rape shack and that he was the one who put her there. Like there are some scenes that are ambiguous and I can agree to disagree, but with this, I don't know, I think to argue that Vane had no idea about what was happening to Max is to willfully turn a blind eye to all the context of that scene. Max was a prostitute. She was thrown naked in the shack and chained. Do we REALLY think that Vane didn't know that she was being subjected to sexual violence? Come on. He knew what she was in for. Saying, "Well, yeah, she was naked, but we don't know for SURE that she was raped!" just seems to be tossing aside one big huge honking clue about what happened to her. 

 

She knows the brutality of it and that these are often not nice men.

Sure, but what I don't get is castigating Max for daring to take a risk to better her lot in life. She's a prostitute. She doesn't have very many options. She's already considered disposable. I'm not gonna blame her for wanting to claw her way out of her situation by any means necessary. She saw her chance and she took it. Of course, it backfired on her, but that's what risk entails. And maybe she should have taken Eleanor's vow of protection. But Max is a proud woman. It was to her detriment - probably her fatal flaw, let's be real - but once again, I can't blame her for taking offense to Eleanor's somewhat paternalistic attitude. (And hey, Hannah New agrees with me, heh.) I don't agree with Max blaming Eleanor for what happened to her, and I think that Eleanor was unfairly villainized by fandom for making the choices she made last season (but I will judge her choice to hook up with Vane this season as much as I want, because... really, Eleanor??), but I also can't judge Max too harshly for not wanting to go back under Eleanor's wing. 

 

Now that is not me saying she "deserved it" but that is the rationale of the other Nassau citizens. 

I don't think anyone is expecting modern day logic to apply. I'm fully aware that Max was living in a shitty era with a shitty job with shitty prospects. What I dislike is how fandom is using that as an excuse to let the men off the hook or to whitewash their behavior. Yes, Max knew that she was taking a risk, but that didn't make Vane any less of a villain in what he did. I mean, what you're saying can be turned around to apply to rape in modern-day society too. I know that I'm taking a risk when I travel on the subway alone at night. And rape culture means that if something were to happen to me as a result, the rationale of the other citizens would be that I deserved it. 

 

And sexual violence (and, well, violence period) might have been more of a way of life back then, especially for someone in Max's position. But that doesn't mean that what happened to her was somehow not as bad, just because most people didn't care or were resigned to it. 

 

If someone doesn't like Max, fine. But arguing that she somehow had the rape coming (because of the era she lived in) or that Vane is just this poor misunderstood bloke who didn't realize what was going to happen when he handed Max over to his crew.... yeah, that's my hill to die on when it comes to this show.

Edited February 10, 2015 by galax-arena

[Neurochick]

I don't think anyone is expecting modern day logic to apply. I'm fully aware that Max was living in a shitty era with a shitty job with shitty prospects. What I dislike is how fandom is using that as an excuse to let the men off the hook or to whitewash their behavior. Yes, Max knew that she was taking a risk, but that didn't make Vane any less of a villain in what he did. I mean, what you're saying can be turned around to apply to rape in modern-day society too. I know that I'm taking a risk when I travel on the subway alone at night. And rape culture means that if something were to happen to me as a result, the rationale of the other citizens would be that I deserved it.

 

 

I agree.  I know I 'm watching a show set in the 18th century and life was shitty then for women.  But that doesn't make what happened to Max right and it doesn't make Vane just an innocent bystander.  

[Garnett7]

I'm not in any way downplaying what happened to Max. It was horrible and 100% wrong. Vane has his blame for it (which I believe I've already said) but so does Anne (for taking Max to the crew to start with) but especially the crewmen (who actually did the beating and raping).

 

My response was about the post that indiccated I said she "deserved it" because that's the way the world was. No, she didn't deserved it. I wasnt saying that. I was saying there are risks in this world and everyone who lives in it knows that they will be expected to "pay" should they get caught. The same logic can be applied to Billy right now. I adore Billy, I hate to see him suffering. I hope the psycho torturing him dies in a fire. That said, I can't disagree if someone said that Billy chose to become a pirate and he knew the dangers of the world when he did so. It's like if the coach of a team calls a trick play. if it works, he's brilliant and daring. If it fails, he's the worst coach ever.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Garnett7

[maraleia]

Since nothing will change regarding Max's story arc that began last season in the beach tent I want all of the posters here to move on from saying that's just the way it was back then. Regardless of how it was, I can see how that is super victim blame-y and triggering to any potential rape survivors who visit the forums.

 

Let's keep all discussions about Max to what is happening this season OK.

[CatMack]

You know, this thread title really kind of bothers me the more I think about it.

 

This entire show is about people struggling to eek out the best existence they can from a shitty way of life, which often involves making drastic and potentially disastrous decisions, which often involves being in a constantly perilous position where one wrong move could send their plans crashing to the ground.  Like, that is literally true of every single character on this show.  Even the men, who are generally in a more favorable position given the sexism of the time period, are constantly at risk because of the lifestyle and the choices they make trying to survive and better their lives.

 

Yet somehow Max is the only character who seems to get constantly insulted for taking risks.  And despite being called some form of stupid pretty much every episode no matter what she does or how it turns out, she actually had arguably the best season of all the characters in terms of her plans coming to fruition.  She's coming up aces by the end of season 2.  And yeah, that might change next season.  Just like the fortunes of all the characters might change drastically at any moment because that is literally the entire point of the show.  

 

Maybe we should stop insulting Max's intelligence when so far she seems to be the only character capable of keeping a plan together and not fucking it up by fucking her ex or impulsively killing her best friend in a panic or any of the other horrible, stupid decisions we've seen other characters make.  

[Iamsweetdee]

You know, this thread title really kind of bothers me the more I think about it.

 

This entire show is about people struggling to eek out the best existence they can from a shitty way of life, which often involves making drastic and potentially disastrous decisions, which often involves being in a constantly perilous position where one wrong move could send their plans crashing to the ground.  Like, that is literally true of every single character on this show.  Even the men, who are generally in a more favorable position given the sexism of the time period, are constantly at risk because of the lifestyle and the choices they make trying to survive and better their lives.

 

Yet somehow Max is the only character who seems to get constantly insulted for taking risks.  And despite being called some form of stupid pretty much every episode no matter what she does or how it turns out, she actually had arguably the best season of all the characters in terms of her plans coming to fruition.  She's coming up aces by the end of season 2.  And yeah, that might change next season.  Just like the fortunes of all the characters might change drastically at any moment because that is literally the entire point of the show.  

 

Maybe we should stop insulting Max's intelligence when so far she seems to be the only character capable of keeping a plan together and not fucking it up by fucking her ex or impulsively killing her best friend in a panic or any of the other horrible, stupid decisions we've seen other characters make.  

Absolutely the thread name should have never been given in the first place. Since when can a person have "too much ambition"? Makes no damn sense and for it to be directed at this particular character is even more insulting. 

[AmandaPanda]

If anyone has an idea for another name for the thread, I would be happy to change it. :)

[CatMack]

How about Max: Get Knocked Down, Get Back Up.  

[AmandaPanda]

And changed. :)

[Monster Zer0]

I just want Max to die very soon. She is a troublesome little minx, and I want to see her meet her end in a very bad way at that.

[Tabasco Cat]

Max is a very annoying character. Walking the plank for betraying Calico Jack would be satisfying.

[Neurochick]

What is so annoying about Max? I have noticed that on many message boards, too many folks find female characters annoying. I like Max because she started at the bottom and has come a long way. I think if a male character acted like Max everyone would love them.

[ulkis]

Max is my favorite, so I don't know. Because she's beautiful, intelligent, confident?

[Neurochick]

Max is my favorite, so I don't know. Because she's beautiful, intelligent, confident?

 

I like Max because she's been through one of the worst things that could ever happen to a woman (gang rape, and in public too!) and has managed to rise.  

[Scaeva]

I like Max. She's also one of the smarter characters in the series, and one of the very few who seems to have clear and practical long term goals. 

 

I'm also hoping she ends up with Silver, since Treasure Island makes brief reference to Silver having married a woman of African descent. Given how clever both characters are, those two ending up together is somewhat fitting.  It would also mean that Max comes out a winner in the end, since Jim allows Silver to sail away with a cut of the treasure

Edited February 5, 2016 by Scaeva

[Neurochick]

I've been thinking about that, Scaeva however  

wonder, if that would be a bit of a whitewash of the character since she's described as being a "negress" several times, which would imply that she looked more like a black person than Max (who's just lighter skinned).  Also, would Max marry Silver if she's gay?  That seems kind of a cop out of that character, but I do think it would be cool, just because both of them are smart.

ETA, yes, I think you are correct.  I just watched episode 303 and yes, Max is referred to as a "negress" (really?  mulatto yes, negress?  no).  I'm conflicted here because I adore Jessica Parker Kennedy and she's slaying it every episode (and I just thought she was just a pretty "CW actress"). But I can't help but feel some kind of way about it.  Seems that whenever Hollywood wants an interracial couple, white man/black woman, they cast a light skinned woman.  As a light skinned woman myself, I like it, BUT I still feel it's white washing, as if to say, "we don't think a white man could be attracted to a darker skinned black woman."  To which I say, dude, look around, most of the black women I see married to white men are darker than I.   I wonder if, when they cast the role of Max, they wanted a lighter skinned woman, as opposed to a woman the color of Viola Davis?

Edited February 6, 2016 by Neurochick

[CatMack]

Colorism is certainly an issue in Hollywood.  I think Max is a tough case to crack.  Her backstory, being mixed race, explains the lighter skin (though not everyone with mixed race heritage has lighter skin).  And I think if we're going to watch "with the mindset of how society was in the 18th century, not the 21st" as you said in the 3X02 episode thread it's worth considering that racists aren't going to distinguish between dark and light skin if that person isn't white.  They're going to be assholes regardless (which is sadly true of racists today as well), and it's not really a stretch to imagine racists calling a lighter skinned woman a Negresse, because they're not going to see her as anything other than Not White. 

 

It doesn't change the overall issue though.  I think it comes down to a macro/micro issue.  I've written elsewhere about this more extensively, but basically when analyzing and critiquing popular culture, of which fiction is a part of, there are two levels on which to view it.  The macro view is looking at the overall picture - nothing exists in a vacuum, how does this particular show (or book, movie, etc) fit into the larger cultural narrative of our society.  The micro view is looking at just the show itself and how things play out within just that narrative.  So from a micro standpoint I don't necessarily find it that unusual or distressing to have lighter skinned Max take on the role of Silver's wife as described in the book - the racism of the time period more than covers her being called Negresse even with lighter skin because people of that time period aren't going to have a concept of colorism like we do.  From a macro perspective, colorism is a huge ongoing issue that needs to be addressed and the audience knows that (well, at least the audience members who are aware of the concept).

 

I lean towards liking the theory of Max becoming Silver's wife from the book eventually (and to address the lesbian question, it could be a marriage of convenience for both of them where sex isn't an issue, or Max could be bisexual - we really do exist I swear!).  I like it for a couple reasons - those two schemers really would make a formidable team, and being tied to the book would ensure Max's survival, which I very much want.  I dread her being killed off because she's a "disposable" original character who has no predestined place in Treasure Island or history. 

 

The colorism aspect is still valid though.  Racism and lack of diversity, to put it mildly, sucks.  If we cross our fingers and wish really hard maybe Mr Scott will one day get something to do besides prop up the stories of white people.

Edited February 6, 2016 by CatMack

[Neurochick]

CatMack, you are correct,

I believe in the 18th century, terms like "mulatto" or "quadroon" didn't exist; and when they did exist, maybe existed only in America.  So you are right that they would call Max a "Negress."  Also in the 18th century there weren't as many mixed people as there are today.  Today people might think Max is Hispanic, Greek, Brazilian or something else.  Back then, white men probably would think Max would be a "Negress."   I too would like for Max and Silver to end up together, they'd be a power couple for sure.  Both of them are hella smart, and for all we know Max might be bi-sexual, and she did sort of have sex with Silver already.   And also, Jessica Parker Kennedy is amazing.  That being said; I do think that saying a man in the 18th century would call Max a "Negress" is nothing more than a cop out; Hollywood today casts biracial actresses to play black actresses.  I've noticed for years that girls my complexion are getting all the "black" parts lately both in commercials and on TV.  That's why many, including me, were happy when Viola Davis was cast in How To Get Away With Murder.  

Edited February 6, 2016 by Neurochick

[Scaeva]

So much for that speculation...

 

I'm now convinced Maroon Princess (sorry, forget her name) is the future Mrs. Silver.While that would be a very cool development as she seems like an interesting character, it would leave me a bit concerned about Max's final fate.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Scaeva

[Rapunzel]

I am not a fan of the Max character nor the actress. Every season I hope it wlll be last. Her acting ranges seems very limited and everything is delivered as though she is just reading it straight off the script page - no talent whatsoever. Tha accent also drives me crazy - she's quite inconsistent with it. The fact that she's now got some power and things she's the smartest, most powerful person on the island is just stupid and she needs to lose that arrogance. How many people has she seen killed for the exact same thing? That's why she's not at all smart - she hasn't even bothered to learn from her predecessors or her previous mistakes. She basically thinks she can still seduce/charm her way out of most situations, and that is just insulting to any woman who truly wants respect on the island. Elenore didn't play it that way - and I'm no Eleanor fan either - and she had more respect than Max can ever hope to gain (granted, she came from a very different background, but even after her father fell out of favor she still managed to hold on to her power for some time afterward - and again, I could go on and on about my issues with Eleanor as well as the actress that portrays her, but this is the Max thread). I hope Max  falls and falls hard - I really don't want her getting increasingly more screen time the remainder of this season or in the next. If they don't kill her off, then throw her back into the shadows and have her stop ruining my enjoyment of this show. If they had a better actress playing her, I may not dislike the character as much.

Edited February 28, 2016 by Rapunzel

[Neurochick]

I can't compare Eleanor and Max because Eleanor's white and came from privilege, Max is racially mixed at a time women like her were slaves.  So, I think Max does pretty damn well for herself.  

[Jordan61]

Thank you Rapunzel! You articulated exactly how I feel about both the actress and the character.

[ulkis]

That's why she's not at all smart - she hasn't even bothered to learn from her predecessors or her previous mistakes. She basically thinks she can still seduce/charm her way out of most situations

 

Who has Max tried to seduce or charm this season? She actively pushed Anne Bonny away from her, and then she didn't try to seduce or charm Woodes Rogers, but presented him with money/gems and a (seemingly) solid plan to get them what they both wanted. 

Edited February 28, 2016 by ulkis

[dohe]

Who has Max tried to seduce or charm this season? She actively pushed Anne Bonny away from her, and then she didn't try to seduce or charm Woodes Rogers, but presented him with money/gems and a (seemingly) solid plan to get them what they both wanted. 

This is a very good dismantling of that argument.  I get very uncomfortable with Max hate and even more uncomfortable when I read the reasoning, if it can even be called that, for not liking her. 

[Neurochick]

This is a very good dismantling of that argument.  I get very uncomfortable with Max hate and even more uncomfortable when I read the reasoning, if it can even be called that, for not liking her. 

 

True.  I like Max because unlike Eleanor, Max doesn't have the option of being an "English Rose" the way Eleanor does.  Even with her past, Eleanor could still marry some wealthy man, I doubt that could happen for Max (she probably wouldn't want it but it probably couldn't happen for her even if she did want it).

[Ravenya003]

You know, it'll never cease to amaze me that a man like Flint can shoot an unarmed, terrified woman in her own bedroom and nary a word is spoken, or that Rackham can betray Max out of sheer pride and get a "hell yeah!", but when an ex-slave tries to better her situation in life so she no longer has to fuck strangers for a living, she's an arrogant witch who needs to be taken down a peg. 

 

The fact that she's now got some power and things she's the smartest, most powerful person on the island is just stupid and she needs to lose that arrogance. 

 

You mean the arrogance she demonstrated in her scene in the bath with Anne, in which she acknowledges the precariousness of her situation and fears she'll become known as "the whore who lost everything"? Yeah, that lack of self-awareness HAS to go.

 

That's why she's not at all smart

 

 

 Except for coming up with the idea to transfer the gold into smaller, easily transportable pearls; approaching Woodes with a mutually beneficial agreement that would consolidate his power without uncomfortable questions being asked; instructing the women of the brothel to spread the idea that allying with Flint is a bad idea; immediately realizing Anne's restraint in the exchange is an indication that a plot is underway, and having enough people in her employ that she knows the route Woodes plans to take across the interior before even his commanding officer does - but sure, let's go with "not smart."

 

She basically thinks she can still seduce/charm her way out of most situations, and that is just insulting to any woman who truly wants respect on the island.

 

 

I'd ask for an example, but I know I won't get one. She has neither seduced nor charmed anyone this season. Not once.

 

I hope Max  falls and falls hard

 

 

The prolonged and violent gang-rape in season one wasn't "falling hard" enough for you? Jesus. Well, maybe she'll be sold back into slavery or hanged as a traitor, before or after a couple more rapes. It seems a fitting end for a women of colour who got a bit too uppity. 

[ulkis]

You know, it'll never cease to amaze me that a man like Flint can shoot an unarmed, terrified woman in her own bedroom and nary a word is spoken, or that Rackham can betray Max out of sheer pride

 

Random question, but was that in season 1? What was it about again? Was it, Jack lost the pearls but he said it was Max instead or something like that? 

[Neurochick]

You know, it'll never cease to amaze me that a man like Flint can shoot an unarmed, terrified woman in her own bedroom and nary a word is spoken, or that Rackham can betray Max out of sheer pride and get a "hell yeah!", but when an ex-slave tries to better her situation in life so she no longer has to fuck strangers for a living, she's an arrogant witch who needs to be taken down a peg.

 

 

Yes to this.  BTW, I think Max was taken down more than a peg when she was gang raped.  

[Ravenya003]

Random question, but was that in season 1? What was it about again? Was it, Jack lost the pearls but he said it was Max instead or something like that? 

 

Flint killed a woman in the premiere of this season. Jack sold out Max a couple of episodes ago when he ignored her entreaty to have Anne bring back the pearls, a decision that will now bring Spain down upon all their heads, and which was made so that his name would live forever as the guy who started the war over Nassau. Heck, I love Rackham and it was totally in-character for him to do so, but within the context of the story it was a shitty move to pull.

[ulkis]

Flint killed a woman in the premiere of this season. Jack sold out Max a couple of episodes ago when he ignored her entreaty to have Anne bring back the pearls, a decision that will now bring Spain down upon all their heads, and which was made so that his name would live forever as the guy who started the war over Nassau. Heck, I love Rackham and it was totally in-character for him to do so, but within the context of the story it was a shitty move to pull.

 

Oh right, right. Thanks.

[Garnett7]

I don't see Jack as having "sold Max out". If anything it's the opposite. Max was the one who told the Governor they had the rest of the jewels. Jack is where he's always been -- on the pirate's side. Max is the one who went over to England. Why should Jack/Anne fall on their swords to benefit her switching teams? And not the "without Max they wouldn't have the gold in the first place" argument. Without Jack, Max wouldn't have had the resources to sail to that island, fight the Spanish and recover it. Without Silver, no one would've known it was still there. Without Flint, it wouldn't have even been there still. So Jack/Anne/Max ending up with it is the result of a lot of things falling into place, not any one of them doing it all on their own.

 

I'm not anti-Max as a character but I am TeamPirate 110% so anyone who conspires against them I want to see fail. That includes Hornigold, Eleanor, Max, Rogers, all of them.

 

Max going to Rogers with the cache in the first place was over-playing her hand to me. Not knocking her. She tried to make a move but it didn't work out. Happens on this show. She had other options. She could've taken her fortune and quietly left the island, lived in luxury somewhere else. She could've gone with Anne as Anne wanted her to. She stayed because she wanted to hold on to her position. Again, not knocking her for that, just how I see her storyline. She didn't want to let go of her power and it didn't go as she planned so she had to give up her money. Jack/Anne shouldn't have to do the same just because she wanted them to.

[CatMack]

Max's plan to give Woodes' the jewels would have worked perfectly for everyone...if Spain didn't already know about it.  It was a very smartly played move, she just didn't have all the information.  Jack did have all the information when he chose to condemn everyone in Nassau to death for his ego.  That's the reality of what he did.  That's why it's selling her, and everyone else in town, out.  Jack, and Max, stole something that didn't belong to them.  Spain found out.  Max was willing to give everything back to save Nassau.  Jack was willing to see her and everyone else burn so that his legacy would be secure.  It would have been a dick move even if his intentions were noble, and they really really weren't.  

 

I feel like I would enjoy being in this fandom more if I could romanticize the pirates enough to be 110% team pirate, but I can't.  Like Rackham said, they're all villains.  The pirates and the English both.

 

I find that Max is generally someone I can root for because she's done far fewer shitty things, relatively speaking, than most of the other characters, and usually when she does have to make a morally dubious choice it's as a reaction to outside forces.  She's not stirring up shit and ignoring the massive collateral damage so she can pretend she's a noble freedom fighter, unlike Flint.  She's not willfully wishing death and destruction on hundreds of people just so future society will remember her name, unlike Rackham.  She's clawed her way up from nothing and she wants to stay up out of the muck and is willing to fight for her position, but my impression of Max is that she'd be perfectly happy to live the life of a legitimate responsible business woman in peace and quiet if everyone around her would stop trying to start a war.  

[Garnett7]

I don't romanticize the pirates. I see them clearly for who and what they are. They're not nice people but neither is England/Civilization. There is a certain honesty to the pirates. They are who they are and live their lives as they choose. England, however, is all about the lies and double-dealing and betrayal. Anne was willing to exchange the cache for Jack when Max lied to her about Jack being tortured. Rogers went back on his word there. So not feeling much sympathy for TeamEngland, to be honest. Again, Max was the one who told Rogers about the cache in an attempt to hold on to her power in Nassau. She could've gone elsewhere with that money and started a legitimate business and lived happily away from it all. But she stayed because she wanted to make a point -- to herself, to Nassau, to Eleanor. It didn't work out. I just don't see how it becomes the responsibility of Jack/Anne to clean that up for her. If she'd kept it to herself, Maid Lady would've reported back that Rogers knew nothing about the secret cache and therefore wasn't purposely keeping it from them. I don't dislike Max but neither do I think she's the victimized party to Jack's evil villain.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Garnett7

[Ravenya003]

Max isn't a victim and Jack isn't a villain, and perhaps "sold out" wasn't the right word to describe what happened re:the treasure - but seriously, Jack's motivation in all this isn't survival, or a noble calling, or sticking it to The Man, or even protecting his friends and loved ones, but his own ego. He wants to go down in history as the Jack Rackham who brought war to Nassau. That's it. 

 

Heck, if he hadn't gone back to Nassau in the first place because he couldn't bear the thought of going under an assumed alias, he and Anne would be on a luxury Carribbean cruise by now. 

 

Also:

 

She basically thinks she can still seduce/charm her way out of most situations, and that is just insulting to any woman who truly wants respect on the island. Elenore didn't play it that way - and I'm no Eleanor fan either - and she had more respect than Max can ever hope to gain.

 

 

This really makes no sense at all. Eleanor openly admitted to Woodes that her ability to oust Edward Teach from Nassau was contingent on the fact she was screwing Charles Vane. Every time he did something that benefited her (such as beheading Ned Lowe), she returned the favour by screwing him some more. Sex has ALWAYS been a tool in Eleanor's arsenal. 

 

And the idea that Eleanor commands more respect than Max with the pirates of Nassau is frankly laughable. The pirates hated Eleanor so much that they strung up an effigy of her outside the tavern with the words "good riddance" written on it, and have since been staging elaborate plays in which she gets sentenced to death by an English judge. What part of that screams "respect"? On the other hand, much of Max's power comes from her ability to control the street, BECAUSE she's a much less haughty manager than Eleanor, as well as knowing most of them on a more personal level. 

 

(And that's not a diss at Eleanor - she just made a few too many mistakes). 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Ravenya003

[Neurochick]

I don't think the pirates respect Eleanor because when push comes to shove, she can always fall back on being an "English Rose."  No one else can do that.  Eleanor looks the part, comes from a good family, etc.  Not to knock Eleanor because those were things she couldn't help, but I'm just talking about respect and trust and I can't see many people respecting and trusting Eleanor.

 

She's not willfully wishing death and destruction on hundreds of people just so future society will remember her name, unlike Rackham.

 

 

In this show, with all that happens in each episode, it's easy to forget that this is what Rackham wanted to do. 

Edited March 14, 2016 by Neurochick

[Garnett7]

Zero argument from me that it was stupid for Jack to go back in the first place. Yes, Jack has massive amounts of pride and his hubris gets in his way. To an extent, though, they're all guilty of that. Rogers thought all he had to do was ride in and act nice and hand out pardons like candy and everyone would fall in line. Max thought she knew Jack well enough to get him to hand over the gems and stroke his ego a bit in the process about how his "legacy" as the man who saved Nassau would live on. She and Rogers both underestimated the response they'd get.

 

ITA that there is no love for Eleanor from the people of Nassau. Eleanor tried to rule with an iron fist, forcing her way, screwing over anyone in the process. Max has been more gentle with it, coaxing things in her desired direction instead of demanding it so. She hasn't openly crossed people like Eleanor did. Well, up to this point. I don't think she can hold that record for long now. It was easy when she was on the pirates' side and there was no England or Spain to contend with. But now that war is here, she won't be able to avoid openly making enemies.

[ulkis]

I don't think the pirates respect Eleanor because when push comes to shove, she can always fall back on being an "English Rose."  No one else can do that.  Eleanor looks the part, comes from a good family, etc.  Not to knock Eleanor because those were things she couldn't help, but I'm just talking about respect and trust and I can't see many people respecting and trusting Eleanor.

 

I don't know if she can, really. No rich respectable man is going to marry her unless they want to enter into a huge "mesalliance" and even then she would probably be shunned and disrespected, not that Eleanor would care though probably. I'm not 100% sure but I believe Flint mentioned something in season 1 about her father's brother wanting nothing to do with him. She herself went to prison and her father was known as a criminal as well. Maybe she can make her way doing some kind of legal work but it's doubtful she can just go back to the social circles she originally came from.

 

If she'd kept it to herself, Maid Lady would've reported back that Rogers knew nothing about the secret cache and therefore wasn't purposely keeping it from them

 

 

The way Rogers made it sound though, if they didn't get back all their gold Spain would come and burn Nassau no matter what Rogers claimed to know. (Which was a bit unbelievable, that Spain would think they would get ALL the gold back, but oh well.)

 

I'm not against the pirates but even team pirate is not 100% team pirate. They're always switching sides and alliances. The only one who feels 100% team pirate is Vane. He was always for Nassau as a pirate island. Flint only switched over when Peter Ashe betrayed him. Anne's only there because Rackham went back, etc etc.

 

Anyway, to get back to Max, I don't see where else she could have gone and just opened up a legitimate business. Perhaps she could have retired somewhere but given what Woodes said about Spain wanting all the gold back, probably someone would have been able to track her down and find her if she had gone away and took some of the gold with her.