S01.E11: Chapter Eleven

[peachmangosteen]

To be fair, so far Rafael has been completely honest with Jane and, whenever confronted, he never lied to her.

 

I believe he did actually. He copped to the phone and cash in his safe, but not the passports. (Or about the phone and the passports but not the cash or something, I don't remember the specific details.) Of course Jane doesn't know that's a lie yet, but she should at least wonder or she shoud've questioned him further because Michael told her about the passports. She's just acting dumb IMO. 

 

I just hope that once Jane finds out about something nefarious Rafael is up to (which IMO seems inevitable at this point) she will fall out of love with him as quickly as she did Michael.

Edited January 30, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[Indi]

I don't think she stopped caring about Michael at all, otherwise she wouldn't have visited him at the hospital. She stopped being in love with him and I think that's a legitimate reason to move on. I think the show made a good job showing how she had conflicting feelings for Michael and Rafael, so it's not like she conjured her infatuation with Rafael out of thin air, once she broke up with Michael.

 

Lots of things can change one's feelings for another person, sometimes even nothing can do that. I think Jane's feelings for Michael had already started to weaken and he noticed it, which is why he started pressuring her about the marriage. He wanted to have her on lock as soon as possible. I can't feel sorry for him, seeing how far he was willing to go, to keep her tied to him. I don't know how she manages to be civil to him, knowing he was even willing to gaslight her.

 

Having said that, I don't think Jane/Rafael will last though. It can't be that easy for them.

[peachmangosteen]

I might have to rewatch the episodes or something because honestly Jane just comes off to me like she legitimately doesn't give a shit about Michael anymore. I will say though early on I didn't feel like Jane seemed like she was as into Michael as he was her, so I could've easily bought into her realizing she didn't really love Michael after the lie came out. But then the wedding dress scene just slayed me and I felt so much from Jane/Michael, so it just makes it hard for me to reconcile her being able to just toss away any love she had for him so easily and quickly.

 

And on the subject of Jane/Rafael, I just do not like the way Rafael and Jane are with each other. It's too OTT cutesy to me. Also, I feel like it comes off too much like Justin Baldoni and Gina Rodriguez as opposed to Rafael and Jane, mostly on JB's part. JB plays Rafael so differently with Jane and it just doesn't work for me. I think he's the weakest actor in the cast. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[calliope1975]

And on the subject of Jane/Rafael, I just do not like the way Rafael and Jane are with each other. It's too OTT cutesy to me. Also, I feel like it comes off too much like Justin Baldoni and Gina Rodriguez as opposed to Rafael and Jane, mostly on JB's part. JB plays Rafael so differently with Jane and it just doesn't work for me. I think he's the weakest actor in the cast. 

 

I think it's the OTT cutesy stuff that bugs me, too. I didn't have a problem with Jane breaking up with Michael. And I fully admit that it's probably JB who I'm not really connecting with so maybe that's why I don't buy, what feels to me, like an Insta!Relationship. It seemed like one date and then they were together. 

 

I don't ship anyone on this show, except maybe Xo and Ro, and there's so many other elements that I'm intrigued by, so Jane and Rafael are by no means a dealbreaker, it just doesn't ring true to me. 

[peachmangosteen]

I don't ship anyone on this show, except maybe Xo and Ro, and there's so many other elements that I'm intrigued by, so Jane and Rafael are by no means a dealbreaker, it just doesn't ring true to me. 

 

Same! I love this show. I just adore it to pieces.

 

That being said though, my hate for Rafael/Jane grows with every episode and I do fear that it may eventually become a dealbreaker for me because they are obviously the endgame and are the most popular part of the show, so therefore they will continue to be a big focus.

Edited January 30, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[natyxg]

I don't think she stopped caring about Michael at all, otherwise she wouldn't have visited him at the hospital. She stopped being in love with him and I think that's a legitimate reason to move on. I think the show made a good job showing how she had conflicting feelings for Michael and Rafael, so it's not like she conjured her infatuation with Rafael out of thin air, once she broke up with Michael.

 

Lots of things can change one's feelings for another person, sometimes even nothing can do that. I think Jane's feelings for Michael had already started to weaken and he noticed it, which is why he started pressuring her about the marriage. He wanted to have her on lock as soon as possible. I can't feel sorry for him, seeing how far he was willing to go, to keep her tied to him. I don't know how she manages to be civil to him, knowing he was even willing to gaslight her.

 

Having said that, I don't think Jane/Rafael will last though. It can't be that easy for them.

 

I guess I have a hard time buying it because I have never seen someone flip a switch after someone hurt them and then move on immediately. Hell, it would be better if people did do that, so they could save themselves from being even more hurt later. What I have seen time and time again (including in myself) is confusion, pain, not being able to let go, missing the person even after you have let them go... so the only thing that makes more sense to me is that she didn't love him really and was already waiting for an excuse to ease her guilt and go to Rafael. But I find that problematic because Jane/Michael weren't shown as being on their last legs when the show started, like Rafael and Petra were. So I find the whole thing weird, specially because Jane is... goody two shoes Jane.

 

I think it's the OTT cutesy stuff that bugs me, too. I didn't have a problem with Jane breaking up with Michael. And I fully admit that it's probably JB who I'm not really connecting with so maybe that's why I don't buy, what feels to me, like an Insta!Relationship. It seemed like one date and then they were together.

 

Jane and Rafael irk me because I find them really unrealistic. They are basically strangers from different worlds who jumped into a relationship and just happened to click so much that now they don't even fight because they can always so maturely find middle ground. 

Adding: not to say that I don't find Jane and Rafael cute. I do. And I think they have good chemistry. I just find the writing irksome.

[AmyAmySue]

An interesting element that I think has been overlooked is that while Michael was gaslighting Jane, she was falling in love with the baby.  Especially in this chapter, this love is fully realized.  Everyone's joy at the baby kicking was so delightful.  Even before it was Rafael v. Michael, it was will Jane fall in love with this baby?  She did and that made Michael's betrayal even greater.  For Michael to so casually dismiss her love for her baby (because by that time Petra was no longer in the running as Mom) and even go so far as to try and manipulate her to give it up, had to have been the greatest hurt.  While I ship Jane and Rafael as the OTP, I do think that right now they are falling in love with love and the glow of the "Peach, now Apple".  When baby's here, it might be a little more real.

[Minneapple]

more about how she has been portrayed as having just completely stopped loving him or even caring about him at all.

 

 

I don't think she stopped loving him, though I think she's not in love with him anymore. And I think the show sufficiently laid out that she was having feelings for Rafael even when she was with Michael, so it was unfair of her to stay in that relationship anyway.

 

I'm confused by your assertion that Michael was more into her than she was into him. Michael's behavior before their breakup wasn't the greatest. First he wanted her to give up the baby, then her job. She had to finally lay down the law with him and be like, "I get to be selfish." Yeah, she does, because she had this life-altering thing happen to her and Michael was like, "BUT HOW WILL IT AFFECT MEEEEEE?" No wonder she ditched the guy for Rafael, who told Jane to sue his own sister at the risk of losing his hotel, who has shown concern for Jane's well-being since he found out about her pregnancy. 

 

Honestly, given Choice A (Michael) and Choice B (Rafael), I'd tell Jane to choose C, to focus on herself, the baby and her career right now. Michael is, well. He's having sex with his partner and obsessed -- at the risk of his career -- with linking Rafael to Sin Rostro. Rafael is mostly boring -- though I'm kind of hoping Rafael is using his blandness as a coverup. It would actually be kind of interesting if he was playing on Jane's naivete to hide some kind of shadiness. I think Rafael and Jane are sweet, but Rafael as a character alone leaves me cold.

[Enginerd]

I don't find Rafael boring. A little too saccharine when he's with Jane, but not boring. I think he is a more subtle flavor, but I like that he is more reserved and quiet. Not everyone needs to be so expressive and dramatic. I find it realistic, especially as an introvert who thinks introverts are under-represented on television. I love it when he is oh-so-calmly not putting up with Petra's nonsense or Xiomara's insults. Cool and collected...so dreamy.

[possibilities]

I have had my feelings for someone die after a betrayal. It can happen in an instant, when you suddenly realize they are not who you thought they were, and your whole construction of the relationship was a mistake. It feels like having the air punched out of you.

 

I think if you view Michael's betrayal as no big deal, or if you haven't experienced that "blood runs cold with shock when I see the truth" feeling about someone, it might be hard to understand. But I have experienced it, and I did think his betrayal was very serious.

 

I also think Jane has remarkably healthy self-esteem. She is not plagued by a need to appeal to every or any guy who crosses her path (or anyone else for that matter, including adults and other authority figures), she has resisted peer pressure and charted her way mostly without role models to guide her, and she is very strong in her personality. She's also extremely loyal-- but in this case she staked her loyalty to the fetus, over her loyalty to her fiance, especially when he staked his priorities to himself against hers and the fetus's self-interest. I think that a person like that is more likely to change her direction when she feels betrayed or undermined than someone who craves approval, relies on affirmation from others, is less experienced at taking an unpopular position against pressure, or is less sure of her own path in other ways.

 

One of the things I like about Jane as a character is that she is an amazing role model for young girls/teens/women who may equate being in charge of their own lives with being undesirable to men (or vice versa: they think they need to cede authority to men in order to be non-threatening and loveable)-- and Jane simply does not have an iota of that in her. She has been brokering peace between the two adults in her life since she was a small child! She has been planning her career and mapping out a plan to make it happen despite no one in her family having done so before her. She is able to insist on staying a virgin without resorting to being a prude. It's somewhat awe-inspiring that she managed to side-step all the pitfalls and get as far as she did before something totally outside of her control undermined her momentum in the form of a freak insemination.

 

I don't think we can expect Jane to be as wishy washy as most of us. It's part of her character to be extremely self-directed and immune to the usual foibles. She's sort of the telenovela version of a super-hero.

[peachmangosteen]

Honestly, given Choice A (Michael) and Choice B (Rafael), I'd tell Jane to choose C, to focus on herself, the baby and her career right now.

 

Amen! But I think we can all safely assume that will never happen!

 

I'm confused by your assertion that Michael was more into her than she was into him

 

Oh, to me personally, it's pretty clear Michael was and is much more into Jane than she ever was him considering he is still trying to get her back (and apparently will until the day he dies) while Jane has sufficiently moved on from him a mere month (or less) after their breakup.

 

While I ship Jane and Rafael as the OTP, I do think that right now they are falling in love with love and the glow of the "Peach, now Apple".  When baby's here, it might be a little more real.

 

That is interesting and I like it. That would be interesting conflict and a good way to break them up that doesn't involve a third party or Rafael's nefarious deeds.

[Irlandesa]

I do think that right now they are falling in love with love and the glow of the "Peach, now Apple".  When baby's here, it might be a little more real.

Yep, a while back I said they were in somewhat of a honeymoon stage.  Those feelings/hormones can be powerful which I think has helped Jane move on from Michael.  (What is it they say on Friends?  The best way to get over someone is to get under someone else.)  Jane was already feeling the pull while she was with Michael.  It's just like her writing/teaching pull.  She could maybe be happy with both but there's one she wants a little bit more...even though it may not be practical.

 

I wonder if the perception of Michael being treated poorly is because he's the one in struggle right now.  The pilot set Jane up as someone behind the eight ball.  She did everything right only to end up pregnant. Since she made the decision to follow her heart, she has had it pretty good.  There are small struggles here and there but everything works out in the end (abuela, immigration, hot baby daddy, TWO job offers...etc.)  The same could be said for Rafael.  He too has had some struggles (Luisa, his father, his job) yet what he wants the most-the baby and Jane-is something he has. 

 

Michael, on the other hand, wants Jane and can't have Jane.  So we get to see Brett Dier's very expressive face in yearning even if he is where he is largely due to misakes he has made.  The same could be said for Petra.  Petra is very sympathetic and under incredible duress right now.  She has a nagging mother and is being chased by a killer.  I've seen people think Rafael is too harsh on her.  Yet, when you look at what she's done to him including making him think she was only after his money, cheating on him, setting him up with a prostitute, working to get him fired and accusing him of domestic violence, is it any wonder he is out of give a damns?    Not to me.  But even knowing all those facts, it's hard to not have heart strings pulled when Yael Grobglas pouts.

[peachmangosteen]

Great post, Irlandesa.

 

I definitely think I'm more sympathetic to Michael and Petra than either Rafael or Jane because they are struggling. Plus we get to see them show more dimensions than we really get from Rafael especially. But I do think that also comes down to the fact that I think BD and YG are much better actors here than JB.

 

I think it's just about biases really. If one likes Michael then they're gonna sympathize with him and if one likes Rafael they're gonna see him as more sympathetic or rootable. And vice versa, if you hate Michael or you hate Rafael you are less likely to see what's wrong about them.

 

Yep, a while back I said they were in somewhat of a honeymoon stage.  Those feelings/hormones can be powerful which I think has helped Jane move on from Michael.  (What is it they say on Friends?  The best way to get over someone is to get under someone else.)  Jane was already feeling the pull while she was with Michael.  It's just like her writing/teaching pull.  She could maybe be happy with both but there's one she wants a little bit more...even though it may not be practical.

 

Very good point. And now I can see how they will be able to bring the triangle back really. I'm starting to think I actually could see Jane slowly starting to reconsider her love for Michael vs. her love for Rafael. 

Edited January 31, 2015 by peachmangosteen

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

So, what if Rogelio's contract is almost up and the head writer plans to give the role of Santos to Nicolas, and is using Jane's internship to open the door to a job that she's going to levy against Rogelio renewing his contract? Sort of, choose your daughter's happiness over your own.

[jjjmoss]

That would be weird though since as Jane said her dream isn't actually being a soap opera writer. 

[aradia22]

I don't really knowing why I'm still watching except that this show is nice to watch when you only want to half pay attention and most of Castle is only on hulu plus. But oh, if they kill Michael like they hinted they might last episode I am so out. I can take a lot but not that. 

 

As for the episode, what? No. Jane, your mom is not obligated to like Rafael. Even if this were Michael and they had a completely conventional relationship, she is entitled to having her own opinion about him. And by the way, it's not Michael and she totally has a right to be concerned. Forget the kiss and not calling and him being rich. That's conveniently ignoring the bigger problems like... his playboy past, scheming ex-wife, family history of madness, apparent inability to run his hotel, sister who incorrectly inseminated Jane and is an alcoholic and fled the country to avoid dealing with, etc. etc. Basically, he's got a lot of baggage and I can understand why Xio wouldn't want Jane getting mixed up in all that regardless of how swept up in love Jane is at the moment.

 

I don't think Xio was rude to speak to Jane in Spanish about Rafael. All she said was that she knew she'd prepped him which was obvious as he was laying it on pretty thick. Also, I do agree with her speech. Yes, family is what you make it but the guy whose sperm was accidentally used to impregnate your daughter doesn't really qualify as family. She did need to apologize to Rafael for her rudeness but I'm glad Jane at least said she accepted that her mom needed time. I still feel like Xio is completely justified in her feelings and her right to have them. Her second speech was also right on. Plus, what the hell is Rafael going on about with his character? What spectacular character does he have to defend?

 

I did enjoy Xiomara and Rogelio's "date." This show would be alright if it were more about them than Jane. Maybe that's my issue. Ugly Betty and Devious Maids have other characters to take the pressure off the annoying ones. Here, Jane is more of the focus and if you're not a fan of Jane and Rafael it's tedious to watch. Also, Xio's vow of chastity is way more interesting than Jane's virginity.

 

Yay, for Rogelio being honest with Jane and making excellent points about what she wrote and the fact that she can't expect to be an expert on her first attempt. (I know she's written before but writing in a different medium is a different skill. Plus, Jane has never taken writing lessons, right?)

 

Wait... why did Michael... the cop... seemingly have no way of defending himself?

 

It was super irresponsible of Jane to drive in her condition. She not only put herself at risk but the baby, pedestrians, and other drivers.

 

While I still don't like Jane with Rafael (I vote Jane with new guy or Jane single with her family's support) I am glad that since Jane no longer feels that chemistry with Michael, she shut down his hopes instead of leading him on.

 

I have no idea what Lachlan's endgame is. Is he trying to get her to rely on him so they can have a weird relationship of dependency or is he setting her up for a fall?

 

I have no interest in what Dina and the assistant are planning but it's great to see Judy Reyes. She can't be staying though, can she?

[Lady Calypso]

Man, what I absolutely LOVE on here is that people are actually torn on Rafael vs Michael, and some are even torn on Jane! I appreciate the different opinions. I kind of ride the middle, where I like both Michael and Rafael, though I guess I'll admit to preferring Michael, and I'm neutral on Jane and like how she's not a perfect character. Now, I just wish someone would call her out on her own flaws! 

 

I think that with Jane, she has moved on too fast. She may have been betrayed, but I think part of her is acting out by dating Rafael so soon after Michael. It's not that she doesn't deserve to move on; it's just that I think she needed more than an hour to process her breakup before dating Rafael. I think if they gave it, like, two episodes of Rafael being there, not jumping in to kiss her as soon as he heard the word "breakup" and Jane allowing herself to get to know Rafael better, I would have been more open to the relationship. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind these two together. I like Rafael a lot and I especially liked him this episode, but the fact of the matter is that he's not that good of a person. He's still that 'bad boy' that Xo is calling out. Michael's not saint, that's for sure, and him and Rafael may be on similar wavelengths, but there's something more off about Rafael and his intentions.

 

Part of me feels like Jane really wants that stable family that she's been yearning for and now that it's not happening with Petra and Rafael, her feelings for Rafael have joined with that yearning. I think there's a small part of her deep down that thinks that if her and Rafael are a happy couple, their baby will grow up with two loving stable parents and everything will be alright. Hence, them moving a bit too quickly in the start of their relationship.

 

That being said, Xo and Rafael had excellent points to make. Xo knows her daughter better than anyone. She probably sees the situation better than Jane can. She of course might be mourning over Michael not being part of the family anymore, and she's heard of Rafael's past and has seen his behaviour with her daughter. But, she isn't giving him a fair chance. Of course she has no obligation to, and it's nice that she was open to try, but I think she was too closed off and didn't try to really open her mind with Rafael. I think she pretended to but was more opposed to it. And she can't compare Michael and Rafael because, as similar as they may actually be, they're different people and have done different things for Jane.

 

I think that Xo is right, Michael aside. I did agree that she might be being disloyal to Michael, ONLY because Jane moved on so quickly after Michael. Like, really quickly. I wish, when the show skipped ahead two weeks, that she chose to date him after that, instead of before. This, I think, is the point I'm stuck on. If she had waited a couple of weeks, then I would be much more willing to accept Rafael/Jane as possible endgame. Plus, with a situation involving my aunt's husband moving on from a relationship quickly (different, much different circumstances; my aunt died after a six year marriage and three kids later, and he was in a serious relationship two months afterward, but it reminds me of it in a way), I think I also have personal biases on the subject matter.

 

I'm definitely annoyed by Michael for his sleeping with Nadine. It puts him in a different light, so I'm just hoping he stops with his mourning soon and stops this. But I love Xo/Ro and love that they're slowing forming a relationship. That's the kind of thing I like to see. Compare that with Jane/Rafael, who had one meaningful conversation and a kiss five years ago, and then have jumped into a relationship so quickly after reconnecting. Ok, to be fair, Xo and Ro did sleep with each other back in episode 2....so maybe I shouldn't quite be comparing, but they never started a romantic relationship so....

 

Also, of course Michael saying those things to Jane in the hospital weren't right. At this point, he doesn't really have the right to say those things. I know he's hurting, but it's just angering Jane more. At least he's being honest, but Xo has more right than Michael, in this sense. That being said, I still feel bad for the guy. To him, it must look like Jane didn't love him enough if she's willing to not try and if she can get into a romantic relationship so soon after their break up. Of course he's hurting and rightfully so. I think he is spiraling and it is because of Jane. Really, these two actually need to sit, talk things out and either get closure and move on, or realize that they're not over each other and figure things out together. Either way, there's still so much to work out between them and it's affecting their lives; or, at least Michael's.

[Guest]

I don't get the "but you were with Michael for TWO YEARS" reasoning, from both Xo and some viewers.  So she should spend the rest of her life with him, unhappily, to not "waste" that sunken investment of time?  I have food in my freezer older than that.  Two years is nothing.  I've tossed out 12 year long relationships like so much old milk.  When it's over, it's over.  Jane is clearly over him.  

 

I also am bugged by Jane not giving up the waitressing job.  Clearly, she should keep the writing and the teaching and quit the waitressing.  It's not a career thing, it's physically hard, the hotel is struggling, she has all kinds of conflicts of interest with her boss... she's just there for story purposes.  

 

I also was bugged by Xo freaking out over Rafael reminding them he'll help support the baby.  I don't expect them to be gold diggers but don't overlook the obvious--- Jane isn't going to be a single mother with no paternal support.  Rafael is loaded.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I get that Xiomara doesn't like Rafael because she thinks that he isn't good enough for Jane and she's entitled to her opinion, but that doesn't give her the right to be rude to him when he comes over for dinner. If you're going to invite someone to your house, then the least you can do is be polite. That doesn't mean you have to be fake, but it is entirely possible not be blatantly rude to your guest. It's called being an adult.

 

I also totally get that Xiomara liked Michael and he was part of their family for two years (and I always think it's sad when a relationship ends and the ex instantly loses his relationship with the other person's family members). But the fact remains that Jane broke up with him. If Xiomara wants to continue being friends with Michael on her own time away from Jane, then fine, but it's really unfair and unreasonable for her to be rude to Rafael out of some misguided sense of loyalty to Michael.

 

I like that Jane and Rogelio's relationship is developing. After they initially met, he was like a big slobbery enthusiastic puppy dog with her. He tried to listen to her but he was so excited about having her in his life that he wasn't very good at understanding her boundaries (but to be fair, his intentions were always good). This week he really listened to her and did as she asked. He was honest with her about the script that she wrote and he explained why (I just wish that he would have added that although her scene wasn't appropriate for a pirate on a telenovela, it would probably be great for something else like a novel or a romantic comedy). And then he was just the right amount of dad when he told her that no one is an expert at anything overnight, developing a skill takes time, and that passion is important.

 

Similarly, I liked that Rafael said he knew that Xiomara wouldn't change her mind about him overnight and that he wasn't giving up. I also really loved that he was the more mature person with Xo, never stooping to her level and returning her rudeness, and that he didn't let her intimidate him.

 

I totally agree that a huge part of Xo's hangup with Rafael is her assumptions about him because he has money. I have seen that several times in real life and it always strikes me as really rude. Yes, his family has money but blaming him for that is like blaming Xo for being the daughter of an immigrant. Neither Rafael nor Xo had any choice in the matter. For the record, I was not born into a rich family and I have definitely known some rich jerks, but it still irks me when people assume that someone is a spoiled entitled brat just because their parents have money just as much as it annoys me when someone assumes that poor people are all lazy and on welfare.

 

As for Xiomara saying that people don't change fundamentally, does that means she's admitting that she's still the selfish irresponsible brat who we've seen in the flashbacks? Anyone can change but many people just choose not to. Not that I'm saying it's okay not to call someone after you hook up, but if that's the worst thing that a guy in his early 20s has done, then I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Sure, it was rude, but it happens all the time. Is that as bad as not telling the father of your child that he has a kid? Or telling your daughter that you don't know who her father is even though you know exactly who he is? I think that speaks more about someone's character than not calling back a girl who you met once.

 

Ha, I love that Lachlan is totally screwing with Petra. They deserve each other. Yes, Petra has a sad back story but that doesn't justify all the super shady stuff she has done so I find it totally amusing to see Lachlan messing with her. One of the best things on soap operas is when the bad guys start targeting each other (when I used to watch Days of Our Lives a million years ago, I always wanted a Victor vs Stefano war).

 

I agree that Jane told Michael she sees herself with Rafael because she is trying to get him to move on. I liked that she asked him point blank if he was waiting for her instead of trying to ferret out that information more surreptitiously.

Edited January 3, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Irlandesa]

I disagree that it was her biggest hangup.  The show focused on Xo's reaction to Rafael's money and class far more than a quick kiss five years ago.

 

If breaking Jane's heart as as much of an issue, it would have overflowed in how she reacted to Michael. 

[Irlandesa]

He didn't?  They were engaged and he lied to her and was willing to sacrifice what she wanted for her child.  Just because she rebounded doesn't mean that was a devastating blow. 

[Irlandesa]

I see your POV and know we're talking about Xo.  I just really do think the show has focused more on their class differences than that kiss so long ago.