S01.E13: Welcome Back, Jim Gordon

[MisterGlass]

I have to say it again, Zsasz's lack of eyebrows is unnerving.

 

I find myself speculating on the backstory between Harvey and Fish.  I feel like their relationship has seesawed between personal and professional, and with that in mind, they may have known each other for quite a while.  Perhaps they met when Fish was still an up and coming crime figure.  Their closeness means more heartbreak for Harvey if things go south in the future.

 

 

I got why Alfred would be upset having a known thief live in the manor, but why was he unnecessarily mean to Ivy? Especially with the mange comment. I get he's supposed to be better than a street kid, but with talk like that, he really isn't.

This Alfred has been very frank in his opinions to everyone.  He has held back now and then with Bruce, but even then, he's not what you'd call tender.  I think he doesn't like Bruce's association with the street kids, and I don't think he likes the reminder that Bruce was out of his custody and in real danger at one point.  This Alfred is a good guardian and an interested teacher, but he isn't nice.

 

 

If only he knew she was currently livin' large with Ivy at Barbara's penthouse. If that's still happening.

I hope it is.  I pictured her going back there with the roller bag after seeing Bruce and Alfred.  It's a better use of it than having Barbara there.

 

 

She just seems like someone who will be killed off, to give the Penguin an angsty backstory. But I'm hoping the powers that be are enjoying having Carol Kane on the show so much that they'll keep her around as long as they can.

Add me to the list of people who think she'll meet a dramatic ending.  I can't decide if she'll be killed by Fish or Penguin himself.  His backstory is already angst-full, and they don't have what I would call a healthy relationship.  I notice that in their celebration at the club they had a black layer cake.

 

Also, seeing her onstage reminded me of when Fish's mother performed.  I hope she isn't part of the Fish vs Falcone retaliations.

[Amerilla]

Bruce is definitely better at gift giving than Ed, though Ed didn't do as badly this time.

 

That was actually a great unifiying theme, now that I think about it: pushing too hard, talking too long.

 

Ed's Riddler-ness prevents him from communicating with people and prevents him from reading clear signs from Kringle that she's just not into him. So he keeps banging away at it, in a way that can only lead to major heartache for both of them down the line. Possibly worse than heartache for Kringle.

 

Bruce's youth and inexperience blew it with Selina. She came to him right away when she found out he was looking for her, and she did like the snowglobe. But he pushed it a little too far when he offered to have her come live at the Stately Manor because they were friend and because she had information on his parent's killers. It was very honest, bless his little bat-heart, but he didn't think about his audience. I think all Selina heard after he finished that sentence was, "I only care about you or do things for you because you have something I need." She immediately withdrew and fled.

 

(Although I do agree that her general prickliness about the way she lives not being inferior and the recognition that her relationship with Bruce is deeper than she probably anticipated probably all played a role in her bolting, my takeaway from the way the scene was written was her reacting specifically to him needing him for her informational value, which is why she immediately took that value away by lying and saying she didn't have any information.)

 

What surprised me is that Jada was able to convey so much tenderness without being over the top one way or another, which has been her MO in the last 12 episodes, even when Fish was more 'subtle'. There was a 'we were lovers and look what life did to us' vibe in that scene that  I appreciate.

 

I loved that scene. Donal is just uniformly excellent, so I wasn't surprised that he manged to imbue Harvey with that level of tenderness. But Jana has been so one-note all season, that she made Fish was so worn out and vulnerable and defeted in the presence of someone she genuinely trusted...well, it gives me hope for her character in the future.

 

I'm okay if Bruce only pops up once every couple of weeks at this point. He's simply not central enough to what's going on among the big hitters.

 

To me, the issue is more the uneveness. Bruce, Alfred, Selina - they're part of the overall mythology, so they shouldn't just vanish for weeks at a time while shorter-term story arcs play out. Either give their ongoing stories some attention OR figure out a way to mix them into the short arcs. It's just too easy in a ensemble cast to lose sight of the big picture.

 

(Same with Barbara: either make her relevant or write her off. But don't have her pop up randomly with scenes that seem to have nothing to do with anything that's happening the rest of the show.)

[Shanna]

Bruce's youth and inexperience blew it with Selina. She came to him right away when she found out he was looking for her, and she did like the snowglobe. But he pushed it a little too far when he offered to have her come live at the Stately Manor because they were friend and because she had information on his parent's killers. It was very honest, bless his little bat-heart, but he didn't think about his audience. I think all Selina heard after he finished that sentence was, "I only care about you or do things for you because you have something I need." She immediately withdrew and fled.

(Although I do agree that her general prickliness about the way she lives not being inferior and the recognition that her relationship with Bruce is deeper than she probably anticipated probably all played a role in her bolting, my takeaway from the way the scene was written was her reacting specifically to him needing him for her informational value, which is why she immediately took that value away by lying and saying she didn't have any information. .)

That was my read as well based on how the scene played but I could see how people read it the other way. I think her main objection was worries about her only being useful because she had something (information) to offer Bruce because that is what, when she was upset, she took away.

[AmyEC]

Uh... didn't Fish order Harvey's execution along with Jim's in the first episode?

 

As to Mama Cobblepot, I think when she put on Liza's scarf it was the worst possible omen.  Not least because they used the "Previously on Gotham" segment to make sure we remembered where it came from.  Even Oswald squirmed a little when she did it.  I wonder if he felt a shiver of foreshadowing.

Edited January 28, 2015 by AmyEC

[Amerilla]

Uh... didn't Fish order Harvey's execution along with Jim's in the first episode?

 

Yeah, but that was just business. :-) 

 

Romeo and Juliet they ain't. Still, they make interesting "friends with benefits."

[maczero]

To me, the issue is more the uneveness. Bruce, Alfred, Selina - they're part of the overall mythology, so they shouldn't just vanish for weeks at a time while shorter-term story arcs play out. Either give their ongoing stories some attention OR figure out a way to mix them into the short arcs. It's just too easy in a ensemble cast to lose sight of the big picture.

Honestly, I wish this would have be an anthology series rather than trying to cram all the different characters and storylines into each episode.  I mean I like all the storylines but there's often a disconnect for me when we go from the mob storylines to Jim's cases to Cat & Ivy to Bruce all in the same ep. 

[AmyEC]

I also loved Jim's reaction when Oswald introduced him to Mrs. C.  His face was all "You have a MOTHER?!"

 

I like how Oswald is alternately doting on and annoyed by his mother.  I enjoyed seeing him get drunk, but it surprised me a little that he would do it.  I see him as being incessantly focused on his goals and his next move.  I'm glad we got to see him cut loose a little.

[Snookums]

Took me a moment to realize to cop begging Jim at the end, was Rat from SOA.

 

 

Okay, so that was him? My husband and I were going back and forth the whole episode ("It's him!" "Well..." "Now I'm not sure..." "No, it's him.")

 

Okay, so I'm on record with the whole "Quit trying to make stalking romantic, show," and I reiterate it. What I object to is not the character of Ed Nygma being a stalker, or placing romantic hopes upon a situation that exists pretty much wholly in his head, but the show backing that play; that is, saying we're supposed to be okay with Nygma's actions

 

. I would hope not, because duh, the Riddler is a villain, but they're asking a lot of Kris here. They had her start out fine, telling Ed that she's not interested and to get out of her face, and not finding his redoubled efforts charming. But now they've not only got her doing the little smiles at his jokes, she's placed in the position of having to defend Ed against the slimy Flass. So far, her apology and shutdown are working, but I'm really hoping they don't go all "she finally gives in and realizes she loves this freakazoid and then gets shot" route. That's just rewarding Nygma, albeit posthumously, for his obsessions.

 

I have to say it again, Zsasz's lack of eyebrows is unnerving.

 

 

 

 

Him smiling down at Butch was unnerving as hell. I said out loud "Damn, that poor actor's gonna be playing nothing but vampires." I loved his reaction when one of the Backup Dancers went down--brief but complete bewilderment; "Wait, that's a thing that happens?"

Edited January 29, 2015 by Snookums

[MisterGlass]

That's a great description of his reaction!
 

Uh... didn't Fish order Harvey's execution along with Jim's in the first episode?

 

    Yeah, but that was just business. :-)

 

Getting rid of Jim would have been business, but I think getting rid of Harvey veers a little closer to personal.  Harvey showed up to save Jim, and gave Fish a tentative ultimatum.  It could be that she considered him a risk for making the threat, and felt it was safer to get rid of him.  An alternate reading would be that Harvey sided against Fish to help Jim, and she resented it.  She was furious when she told Butch to hang up Harvey too.  Neither of them held a grudge, though as I recall Harvey asked permission the next time that they went into Fish's territory.

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited January 29, 2015 by MisterGlass

[Artsda]

Great supporting cast in this episode! Flass, Delaware. Delaware was regular on Sons of Anarchy. 

 

Really liked this episode.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Artsda

[MarkHB]

I loved the way this episode (which would have been the finale had they not gotten the back 9 and renewal) served as a counterpoint to the pilot. In the pilot, Bullock goes to see his Mob source (Fish) for a favor and Gordon takes Penguin out on the pier and tells him never to come back to Gotham. In WBJG, Gordon goes to see his Mob source (Penguin) for a favor and Bullock takes Fish out on the same pier (I think) and tells her never to come back to Gotham. I don't know where the hell Fish was going to go on the pier, though... was she going to stowaway on that fishing boat in that dress?

 

Also, it put the Bruce/Selina relationship on a different level. I'm pretty sure that Selina was lying about not seeing the killer, but as she grows more distant from the event of the Wayne murders the horror at that has worn off in favor of self-preservation (freaking assassins are looking for her). Plus, like any stray cat she's suspicious of anyone who wants to take her inside and control her, so she broke Bruce's heart to make the break between them cleaner. I thought Camren did a great job in that scene, switching from joy at the snow globe to rejecting it; it's far better acting than I thought she could pull off since she's new to it.

[tennisgurl]

I really enjoyed the hell of out this episode. I swear I could watch a whole episode of Jims "What in Gods name is going on here?!" expressions. Jim and Penguins mom is comedy gold, as it turns out.

 

Selena and Bruce make me so sad. They are just such cute little things, I hate when they're sad. I think she freaked out at the idea of getting closer to Bruce. If she is used to being all on her own on the street, having a home might seem scary. I hope they make up soon. 

[Camera One]

I was disappointed Jim went to Penguin for help.  I really hope he learned his lesson.  It was an important lesson to learn, though I fear they will have him distastefully working with Penguin more and more, just to link the storylines together.  I can sort of see why Jim was so desperate to prove the case, since the death of that witness was sad and no doubt would have affected him.

 

The Riddler/Kringle stuff is a little repetitive.  I can't help but feel badly for him too.  He was funny picking out onions from takeout, though.  He was grinning like a bobcat when that rotten cop was arrested.

 

I was glad to see Bruce again, though the story was a little weak.  It essentially "reset" the stuff they did a few episodes ago. I was wary about the Bruce/Selina friendship going too fast, so in some ways, it's a good thing but they can't go back and forth too many times before it gets old.  I am interested in seeing Bruce snooping in Wayne Enterprises to go further, now that the whole Liza-Falcone-Fish stuff seems to be resolved for the time being.

[Danielg342]

I thoroughly enjoyed it. Aside from the fact that Fish seemed to be rescued a bit too easily and the disappointing scene between Bruce and Selina (I think Selina was just lying so Bruce would stop being so pushy with her, because he was), there wasn't much I felt was wrong with the episode. Yeah, it was a bit frustrating to see Jim Gordon go through all those hoops, but, in Gotham, it was strangely appropriate.

Because nothing else says “Welcome back, Jim Gordon!” like a whimpering Officer Davenport pleading with Gordon to spare his family. It's a nice “reminder” that even to do good in Gotham, you need to do bad.

[MarkHB]

I have to say it again, Zsasz's lack of eyebrows is unnerving.

I recently saw an interview with the actor; he actually has propecia and the lack of eyebrows is real.  He had been wearing wigs, etc. and then decided to just go with it and see what kind of parts he could get.

[truthaboutluv]

(I think Selina was just lying so Bruce would stop being so pushy with her, because he was)

 

 

I don't think she was lying. I've always questioned Selina's claim that she saw who killed Bruce's parents based on what we actually saw in the pilot. Yes she saw the murders as it happened but where she was positioned, coupled with the guy wearing a mask, the darkness, etc. there was no way she saw his face. So I do believe that she made up the lie about seeing his face so Jim would help her stay out of juvie, which she didn't want to go to. 

 

And as others noted above, I do think what bothered her in her conversation with Bruce was the impression she got, wrong or right, that most of his niceness and friendly gestures was due to his believing she could help him find the person who murdered his parents. As others noted, she looked genuinely flattered by the gift and while a little wary about his invitation to live at the mansion, she wasn't completely turned off by it.

 

It's when he mentioned helping him catch his parents' killer, you see her expression change and then she really goes for the kill by blurting out the truth that she actually didn't see the guy's face and just lied to get Jim to help her. To me her actions were anger and hurt at feeling like Bruce was really only using for what he thought she knew and her hurting him by revealing the truth, that she doesn't know anything, never did and just lied. 

Edited February 1, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Shanna]

I don't think she was lying. I've always questioned Selina's claim that she saw who killed Bruce's parents based on what we actually saw in the pilot. Yes she saw the murders as it happened but where she was positioned, coupled with the guy wearing a mask, the darkness, etc. there was no way she saw his face. So I do believe that she made up the lie about seeing his face so Jim would help her stay out of juvie, which she didn't want to go to.

See that was my initial read on what she told Barry, that she felt guilty and confessed. And then went overboard shutting him down, out of awkwardness. But I think you could read it either way.

I recently saw an interview with the actor; he actually has propecia and the lack of eyebrows is real. He had been wearing wigs, etc. and then decided to just go with it and see what kind of parts he could get.

Interesting! It really works for him in this part. Edited February 1, 2015 by Shanna

[ratgirlagogo]

 

I find myself speculating on the backstory between Harvey and Fish.  I feel like their relationship has seesawed between personal and professional, and with that in mind, they may have known each other for quite a while.  Perhaps they met when Fish was still an up and coming crime figure.  Their closeness means more heartbreak for Harvey if things go south in the future.

I was also thinking that whatever had happened between them had happened when Harvey was an idealistic do-gooder, and maybe when Fish was still Marie Mercedes - when they were much younger and less hardened and hadn't gotten so enmeshed in the Gotham nastiness.

 

 

To me her actions were anger and hurt at feeling like Bruce was really only using for what he thought she knew

This was my take too.  I can't tell whether she was lying about seeing the killer - she was definitely lying about the rest of it, about not thinking life in Stately Wayne Manor was better than life on the streets of Gotham. 

 

I was kind of disappointed that Alfred went from thinking Selina was "a breath of fresh air" to "always knew she was a wrong'un."  That goes a little beyond just feeling protective of Bruce and not wanting him to be hurt any further. 

 

 

Fish seemed to be rescued a bit too easily

So many people on this show seem to not get killed no matter how many times they're captured and up for execution.  Penguin, Jim, Harvey. 

[Camera One]

I don't think she was lying. I've always questioned Selina's claim that she saw who killed Bruce's parents based on what we actually saw in the pilot.

 

I thought the same too.  Based on what we saw, she didn't see the killer's face.  They could very well do a flashback showing us that she followed him after, or saw him previously, so she actually did know what he looked like.  But I found it unconvincing when she initially told Gordon she saw the killer, because that's definitely not what we saw.  So it's all rather ambiguous what she did see, and the writers have the freedom to write whatever later.

Edited February 1, 2015 by Camera One

[Kel Varnsen]

Much as Gordon wants to clean things up, Essen and Bullock are right to tell him that he needs to pick his battles.  If he has to ask Penguin's help, and he ought to know by now what that entails, then it isn't the time.  It was nice see that more of the officers were with Jim this time.

 

I am really glad they had those scenes of Essen and Bullock telling Gordon to ease up a little. Because watching a lot of this episode I kept wondering how the hell Gordon is going to be able to move up through the ranks if he pisses off everyone on the GCPD. I mean the Mayor and the Commissioner already both hate him, so who is going to promote him past being detective?

Please, let it be villain. Her name is too weird.

I hope they do something different like that with Kringle. I mean having her be the poor innocent file clerk who ends up being the target of crazy Ed Nygma's obsession would be way to obvious I think. Now considering how most of the GCPD is corrupt, making her more evil then him would be interesting.

 

I thought she said all that to retaliate for Bruce inviting her to live at Wayne manner b/c it's better than the way she lives now. Kids tend to do that kind of thing.

It is funny how out of touch with people Bruce is. While it was a nice gesture Selina is basically homeless, what the hell is she she going to do with a snow globe? It is not like she has a mantle she can display it on.

 

Also I really want to know what is going on with Penguin. Again considering how corrupt GCPD is, how is it that Maroni hasn't heard that Fish is gone and Penguin has taken over her club? Plus the dude really needs to start carrying a weapon. If not a crazy umbrella at least a gun. When Butch and Fish had him and were about to beat him with the bat, all I could think of was if he had a gun, he could shoot them.

[FamilyVan]

I don't think she was lying. I've always questioned Selina's claim that she saw who killed Bruce's parents based on what we actually saw in the pilot. Yes she saw the murders as it happened but where she was positioned, coupled with the guy wearing a mask, the darkness, etc. there was no way she saw his face. So I do believe that she made up the lie about seeing his face so Jim would help her stay out of juvie, which she didn't want to go to.

 

 

Yes I think she felt like he was just using her to get info about his parents murder.  She wants him to like her for her.  I think she realized he was only out there looking for her to be like I'm home now, so let's get back to the business of solving this.  Even after she left he said it's OK, there will be other leads.  This is how he sees her, a lead, not a friend.  Then when he was crying it was not that he was sad and missing her he was crying at getting nowhere, and being back to square one at figuring out what happened to his parents.

[Danielg342]

I don't think she was lying. I've always questioned Selina's claim that she saw who killed Bruce's parents based on what we actually saw in the pilot. Yes she saw the murders as it happened but where she was positioned, coupled with the guy wearing a mask, the darkness, etc. there was no way she saw his face. So I do believe that she made up the lie about seeing his face so Jim would help her stay out of juvie, which she didn't want to go to.

And as others noted above, I do think what bothered her in her conversation with Bruce was the impression she got, wrong or right, that most of his niceness and friendly gestures was due to his believing she could help him find the person who murdered his parents. As others noted, she looked genuinely flattered by the gift and while a little wary about his invitation to live at the mansion, she wasn't completely turned off by it.

It's when he mentioned helping him catch his parents' killer, you see her expression change and then she really goes for the kill by blurting out the truth that she actually didn't see the guy's face and just lied to get Jim to help her. To me her actions were anger and hurt at feeling like Bruce was really only using for what he thought she knew and her hurting him by revealing the truth, that she doesn't know anything, never did and just lied.

I tend to think Bruce showed her some actual love for her, but he had no idea what he was doing and he wound up turning Selina off. Yes, it was a love based on Bruce hoping he could get stuff out of her, but I still think it was a love. It's difficult to know for sure what Selina actually saw, and it's a fair point to note she has manipulative tendencies and thus isn't adverse to lying to get her way, but her statement very much felt like "leave me alone, Bruce" and I don't construe it as Selina telling the truth- just like "I saw his face" likely isn't the truth.