Relationships: Speed Dating

[Trini]

With the news about Jesse L. Martin, hopefully they have Cecile step up for those cross-generational parenting talks.

---

Unrelated, but I'm just loving that the West-Allens are THE story this season!

[legaleagle53]

14 hours ago, Trini said:

With the news about Jesse L. Martin, hopefully they have Cecile step up for those cross-generational parenting talks.

Especially since Cecile doesn't appear to have completely lost her telepathic powers.  She was able to sense that Joe was in danger, and she was also able to sense that something was off at the softball game before anyone realized what was going on.  I'd say that giving birth didn't so much weaken or nullify her powers as it did modify them so that they work in a more subtle fashion.

Edited November 4, 2018 by legaleagle53

[SevenStars]

14 hours ago, Trini said:

With the news about Jesse L. Martin, hopefully they have Cecile step up for those cross-generational parenting talks.

---

Unrelated, but I'm just loving that the West-Allens are THE story this season.

I would hope so but the way the writers had her acting during Iris/Nora moments makes me think not. That was a perfect moment to have her shown some type of cross-generational parenting, especially since she has an adult daughter like Iris is dealing with now. 

I too love that West-allens family is the top story this season.

[Trini]

Underrated moment from "News Flash": Iris is all, 'Love you, but you kinda suck at this' and Barry still goes in for the good luck kiss anyway. They were so cute this episode!

[phoenics]

Kudos for Barry lifting his cap so he didn't stab Iris with it, :)

[ursula]

Yes, that was lovely and completely took me by surprise. Which says a lot about how stringently Westallen PDA is... well really the only right word here is rationed.

[Trini]

 

So... What I'm getting is, handcuffs and tasers are a regular part of date night?  ?

----

In non-WestAllen relationships:

I wish Joe had been around, but I'm glad that Cecile had the sideplot with Nora to set her straight about her attitude toward Iris. The show has always been bad at female characters interacting, so it was good in that sense.

Happy that Iris and Nora are on the path to a better relationship, finally.

It was also great to see Cisco express his feeling and fears and get support and reassurance from his friend, instead of the other way around for a change. And I still don't know if they have the guts to do it, but the part of Caitlin's speech to Cisco about him (not Vibe) being "the guy she needs" could be a shiptease. It also parallels Iris' reassurances to Barry that she loves him and not just his superhero persona.

------

Since A WestAllen dance was spoken into existence*, maybe the writers can nudged toward getting Joe and Cecile married. I mean COME ON. I'd even accept it if it happened offscreen during the hiatus.

*(shush - let me have this!)

Edited November 21, 2018 by Trini

[ursula]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

I wish Joe had been around, but I'm glad that Cecile had the sideplot with Nora to set her straight about her attitude toward Iris. The show has always been bad at female characters interacting, so it was good in that sense.

 

Cecile being the one to set Nora straight was such a great scene in so many ways that I wishfully hope it had been planned that way, regardless of JLM's condition.

[BeautifulFlower]

One thing that irks me

I get some people miss the Barry/Cisco/Caitlin friendship, but why do some have this mentality that Barry is obligated to know what goes on in his friends lives?

I've seen people upset over Barry not helping with Caitlin's investigation as if he does't have his own family situation going on. What did they want Barry to do? Stop caring about the Iris/Nora situation and instead help with an investigation that has nothing to do with him or stopping Cicada? Plus, Caitlin already have Ralph, Cisco, and Sherloque. Is it really that important for Barry to be involved?

I've seen people claim Barry is not being there for Cisco. Again, Barry has his own thing going on. If Barry was near Cisco when he passed out, he would've been there for him.

It's amazing how they don't care that neither Cisco nor Caitlin asked Barry how things are going, yet Barry should know what's going on with them?

[Featherhat]

I guess part of it is people who say that do want more Barry/Cisco/Caitlin stuff, like in an "are they even aware of what's going on in their lives?" way.

Another related part of it is whatever is going on with Barry is (usually) related to the A plot and therefore gets more focus. And also that they don't want these characters to get stuck on their own little Plot Islands where they have their few minutes of stuff but never get anything else to do for the episode because it doesn't involve Barry. 

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

It's amazing how they don't care that neither Cisco nor Caitlin asked Barry how things are going, yet Barry should know what's going on with them?

THANK YOU! Neither one has check on Barry or Iris about Nora being there. So, why aren’t they “bad friends”?

In the end, these issues with Barry not being more involved with Caitlin and Cisco’s  (and it’s really just Caitlin they are worried about) is that he’s not making Caitlin and Cisco more important than his wife and daughter. Not the hill I would want to die on, imo. 

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

I guess part of it is people who say that do want more Barry/Cisco/Caitlin stuff, like in an "are they even aware of what's going on in their lives?" way.

Another related part of it is whatever is going on with Barry is (usually) related to the A plot and therefore gets more focus. And also that they don't want these characters to get stuck on their own little Plot Islands where they have their few minutes of stuff but never get anything else to do for the episode because it doesn't involve Barry. 

I would totally buy this idea except that it’s clear that Barry and Iris are aware and checking-in, it’s just off-screen. Iris knew that Cisco wasn’t able to vibe her to Barry’s location. 

It can seem disconnected, but I don’t mind it because the characters are getting more narrative space during the process. 

[adora721]

On 11/20/2018 at 9:31 AM, Featherhat said:

I guess part of it is people who say that do want more Barry/Cisco/Caitlin stuff, like in an "are they even aware of what's going on in their lives?" way.

Another related part of it is whatever is going on with Barry is (usually) related to the A plot and therefore gets more focus. And also that they don't want these characters to get stuck on their own little Plot Islands where they have their few minutes of stuff but never get anything else to do for the episode because it doesn't involve Barry. 

On at least two occasions there was mention of Caitlin searching for her father that WA should have been able to hear. What is unclear is if Caitlin has told Barry that he is not responsible for making Caitlin Killer Frost with Flashpoint. I'm very eager to see if she'll confess that and apologize for all the awful things she said to him. The writers will probably have her start an apology, but have Barry interrupt her saying that he understands before she actually gets the full apology out of her mouth. Caitlin is very allergic to apologies.

I don't mind the plot islands because they all have the same threads running through them: family, fathers and daughters, dealing with lost or suppressed powers. If done well, the threads will intersect periodically and finally connect by the end of the season. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

9 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Another related part of it is whatever is going on with Barry is (usually) related to the A plot and therefore gets more focus. And also that they don't want these characters to get stuck on their own little Plot Islands where they have their few minutes of stuff but never get anything else to do for the episode because it doesn't involve Barry. 

 

8 hours ago, Kate45 said:

It can seem disconnected, but I don’t mind it because the characters are getting more narrative space during the process. 

Even if the support characters are in the A-plot, half the time they don't have much to do anyway. Caitlin is off on an island, but having her own storyline is a vast improvement from how they wrote her before: either propping/supporting someone else who actually has a story, or having an arc but it's sporadic and inconsistent.

[wingster55]

On 11/20/2018 at 12:00 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

What did they want Barry to do? Stop caring about the Iris/Nora situation and instead help with an investigation that has nothing to do with him or stopping Cicada?

Yes, exactly. Especially the part I bolded. 

[Trini]

In this week's speculation about 'will they go there with KillerVibe?', they had Barry say to Caitlin that Cisco cares about her "the most". Which, to be fair, has always been the case; but it seemed a not-so-subtle reminder.

---

And it was great that Nora and Iris were bonding over Iris' time as a speedster, but it was still a little jarring seeing Nora be so "fangirl-y" considering they've spent most of the season so far at odds. Glad they've made some progress, though.

[adora721]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

In this week's speculation about 'will they go there with KillerVibe?', they had Barry say to Caitlin that Cisco cares about her "the most". Which, to be fair, has always been the case; but it seemed a not-so-subtle reminder.

 

Unless there's a real sea change, DP is against a romantic pairing with Cisco and calls him a "brother" as often as she can. 

"Danielle Panabaker: I absolutely see it as a very much sibling relationship, you know, they riff each other a little bit, but they also love each other so much."

In 2x16, they wrote Cisco to say, "Hey, I know I'm practically your brother..." before asking Cait to dance.

I think the writers having Barry say that Cisco especially cares about Caitlin was a little shade for the SB fandom who seem to forget that fact, IMO.

[SimoneS]

On 10/19/2018 at 5:15 PM, Trini said:

HOWEVER, I did not agree with the dialog in the scene when Cisco says the Cynthia wasn't The One. Because shut up, writers,  she was but I get that the actress wasn't available (or whatever) and they're working with what they've got. Cisco and Cynthia were perfect together, and they could have thrived given the chance.

I agree. I thought Cynthia was perfect for Cisco.

[legaleagle53]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I agree. I thought Cynthia was perfect for Cisco.

What Ralph and Cisco were saying was that if it had been meant to be, it would have been. And Cynthia would also have had to believe that Cisco was The One for her.  If she had, she would never have broken up with him but as you say, she would have found a way to make it work with him, and the fact that she didn't even try tells me that she didn't believe that Cisco was The One for her.  If the relationship doesn't feel right for her, it can't be right for him.  There's simply no such thing as a lasting one-sided relationship.

[adora721]

On 8/8/2018 at 6:15 PM, phoenics said:

Also - if you count up the screentime of CP, DP and SVS, CP had the LEAST, SVS had more and DP had the most. 

There's actually a Tumblr page that has been counting the screen time for all the women since S1; it's very interesting to see the change over the seasons.  Kudos to Valerie Perez for her time and patience in putting it together!

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

There's actually a Tumblr page that has been counting the screen time for all the women since S1; it's very interesting to see the change over the seasons.  Kudos to Valerie Perez for her time and patience in putting it together!

OMG - S2 is really infuriating.  It's absolutely WRONG that a supporting female character had more screentime than the female lead.  And even in S1, CS was nearly on par with IW.  All the writers did was set things up for certain fans to be spoiled and then entitled and bitchy once the screentime was set to how it should have been all along.  I'm so angry looking at that.  SO angry.

[adora721]

2.08
Kendra - 10 min 40 secs
Caitlin - 6 min 20 secs 
Felicity - 5 min 30 secs
Thea - 3 min 20 secs
Patty - 1 min 50 secs 
Iris - 0 min 5 secs

 

That 5 secs for Iris in the S2 crossover is what irks me the most.

[phoenics]

36 minutes ago, adora721 said:

2.08
Kendra - 10 min 40 secs
Caitlin - 6 min 20 secs 
Felicity - 5 min 30 secs
Thea - 3 min 20 secs
Patty - 1 min 50 secs 
Iris - 0 min 5 secs

 

That 5 secs for Iris in the S2 crossover is what irks me the most.

Yeah that was blatantly bad.

Also if you look at Iris' screentime vs Caitlin's pre-Andrew Kreisberg it becomes BLATANTLY obvious what was going on.  It enrages me how black people became the face of Affirmative Action when 1) white women benefit more than anyone and 2) DP never even auditioned - she got her part via "connections", AKA privileged affirmative action.  CP had to actually earn her spot and then she literally is 10x the actress DP is but she still had to fight against DP, racists and AJK having an agenda for her first 3.5 years on the show.  

The screentime stats really make it obvious.  Privilege is one hell of a drug.  It's one thing to not audition and get a role.  It's quite another to not audition while the lead actress had to audition (multiple times) to get her spot and yet she STILL has to compete against the non-auditioner for screentime and PoV.

I hate that.  It's a wonder CP can even manage to come across as warm to DP onscreen.  I'd hate her guts.

[SimoneS]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:14 PM, Kate45 said:

Iris' connection to Barry's powers would be very difficult for them to undo. Plus, they told us in 1x20 that Barry and Iris would marry. They have also told us that Barry and Iris are together in every timeline and earth. 

One big issue keeps being overlooked in regards to the source material topic: the role of DC Comics! They have a lot more control than some are contributing to them in these threads. Unlike Vampire Diaries, Jane The Virgin, and others, The Flash is still being used by DC Comics. None of these producers own the rights to any of these characters. Before beginning any season, each DCTV show has to sit down with DC Comics to go over the plan for the year and get permission to carry out storylines, and use villains for the year. Just recently Arrow was told by DC that they couldn't bring back a character back because of the plans DC had for the character in the DCEU. 

Iris is still a huge part of the comics, and she's set to be in the Flash movie that's coming out in a few years. DC would likely not be on board for killing Iris in the TV version (and I'd be really close to saying it's 100% guarantee that she's safe). It messes up their universe to have a version of the character dead on DCTV. 

Also, Smallive writers were fired for fighting to make Clark/Lana the final OTP. They were explicitly told that Clark/Lois had to be the final OTP. 

Based on that reaction from DC, I'm sure that SnowBarry was never in the cards as a final OTP. I'm also not so sure that it was ever set to be a midgame ship, either. 

The level of concern that DC Comics would have for these would be different for each Flash character. I'm sure the idea that DC cares about Barry/Iris would be obvious, but the other characters are likely not as much of a concern since it doesn't appear that the DCEU plans to use them. 

ITA. Berlanti and his showrunners do not have a free hand with these shows. All the characters belong DC and it decides which characters can be used and which romantic pairings can be done. Unlike all the other superheroes in Berlanti's Arrowverse, The Flash is a A list/1st Tier DC superhero. Geoff Johns wrote The Flash Rebirth hit comic series. He made the decision to cast the Wests as African American because he has been working to diversify the superheroes in DC Comics. He has been determined that The Flash would stay close to its comic counterpart even with some tweaks. And Barry's love for Iris throughout all the comics is his one constant and drives many of his stories. It doesn't matter if he thinks she is "dead" or he doesn't remember her or vice versa or the timeline changes, they always reunite across the centuries. She is his lightning rod. 

In the first season, the by line of the newspaper article was changed so that it was written by "Iris West-Allen" so that fans would know that Barry and Iris were destined to fall in love and marry. Of course, it helped that Barry and Iris became popular online and on social media, but whatever Kreisberg's machinations to marginalize Iris or what the actress who played Patty Pivot thought, Johns (read DC) was never going to allow Berlanti & Co to disrupt his wider long term plans for the comics and the long awaited Flash movie which has been in the works for years. WB has already cast Kiersey Clemons as Iris for the movie which finally seems to be under development.

Edited December 26, 2018 by SimoneS

[BkWurm1]

Quote

Also, Smallive writers were fired for fighting to make Clark/Lana the final OTP. They were explicitly told that Clark/Lois had to be the final OTP.

I believe this is misinformation.  There's no indication anyone was fired over ships and writers simply do not have the kind of power to fight for end game pairings, they are told what to write, plus Lana and Clark being the tragic love story was known to be the show runners' plan from the start.  And Kristen Kreuk basically left the show at the end of season 7 only returning to finish up some episode obligations the following year so she wasn't even going to be around to be endgame.   There have been more comments from writers about them considering and discarding a Chloe and Clark twist with Chloe being revealed as the comic Lois than the show fighting for Lana to be endgame over Lois and Clark.  And after following Smallville very closely, this is the first time I've ever even heard this suggested.  

[SimoneS]

I am doing a re-watch, catching up on the episodes that I missed, and one thing that caught my eye is how fast the Barry/Patty and Joe/Cecile relationships moved. Barry was dating Patty and Joe dating Cecile for a couple months and they are all "you should tell her the truth." Huh? As if no one has ever breaks up or has a bad break up. And what did Barry think would happen after he told Patty? Did he really think they had any kind of future? I will never understand what the producers were thinking there. I would like to find some interviews with them.

Also, I am not thrilled that Cecile got pregnant in a hot minute. It all feels so instant with no development in their relationship. Plus, did Joe really want to be saddled with an infant when he has three adult children to worry about? They never even discussed terminating the pregnancy. Too bad there was not a miscarriage.

Edited December 30, 2018 by SimoneS

[BkWurm1]

26 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Plus, did Joe really want to be saddled with an infant when he has three adult children to worry about?

Really wasn't his choice to decide if Cecille should not keep the baby.  

[ruby24]

I think the decision to make them have a baby was a miscalculation. For one, that kid is never going to be part of the plot, so we'll likely never see her. Two, the fact that they still haven't gotten married, and they haven't even addressed them getting married or not getting married, shows how little the writers care about the relationship and the child. 

I mean, they could have easily had a conversation where they both decide that they actively DON'T want to get married again, since their previous marriages failed and they just want to do it differently this time, but to not even address it when they're having a kid? After this all this time it seems like such an oversight. 

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said:

Really wasn't his choice to decide if Cecille should not keep the baby.  

I know this, but there was barely a conversation about having a baby at their age would mean or that it would be a high risk pregnancy at her age. IMO, the show made yet another bad decision with that pregnancy. There was no point in saddling Joe and Cecile with that baby, plus Cecile was given powers which was also unnecessary. Too many metas in that group.

Edited December 30, 2018 by SimoneS

[Trini]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I am doing a re-watch, catching up on the episodes that I missed, and one thing that caught my eye is how fast the Barry/Patty and Joe/Cecile relationships moved. Barry was dating Patty and Joe dating Cecile for a couple months and they are all "you should tell her the truth." Huh? As if no one has ever breaks up or has a bad break up. And what did Barry think would happen after he told Patty? Did he really think they had any kind of future? I will never understand what the producers were thinking there. I would like to find some interviews with them.

I've always thought that Patty was temporary, and I think the producers did too. I would have to look back, but I don't remember much said about Patty regarding her (potential) future with Barry.

 

Quote

Also, I am not thrilled that Cecile got pregnant in a hot minute. It all feels so instant with no development in their relationship. Plus, did Joe really want to be saddled with an infant when he has three adult children to worry about? They never even discussed terminating the pregnancy. Too bad there was not a miscarriage.

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

I think the decision to make them have a baby was a miscalculation. For one, that kid is never going to be part of the plot, so we'll likely never see her. Two, the fact that they still haven't gotten married, and they haven't even addressed them getting married or not getting married, shows how little the writers care about the relationship and the child. 

I mean, they could have easily had a conversation where they both decide that they actively DON'T want to get married again, since their previous marriages failed and they just want to do it differently this time, but to not even address it when they're having a kid? After this all this time it seems like such an oversight. 

Yes, to all this. I have to go back and find the interview, but one of the producers said they thought it'd be funny if Joe had a baby. So it was basically a joke that they really didn't think through.

[Trini]

I only checked two websites, but here are a couple of producer quotes about Barry/Patty:

Quote

“We were huge fans of The Messengers and are excited to have Shantel join us to help complicate Barry Allen’s love life in season two,” Kreisberg continued.

https://tvline.com/2015/07/11/the-flash-season-2-cast-teddy-sears-jay-garrick-shantel-vansanten/

Quote

This blossoming relationship adds a new complication this season. “Iris is always Barry’s lightning rod, best friend, first love of his life, but she just lost Eddie,” Todd Helbing says. “As she’s dealing with this, and Barry and Iris are slipping back into that friendship mold, it leaves an opportunity to explore a relationship with Patty. You’ll see how that develops. Iris and Barry are childhood friends and loves. That’s always going to be there for both of them.”

https://ew.com/article/2015/10/13/flash-wells-francine-west-firestorm-cisco-spoilers/

Quote

Elsewhere in this week’s episode, Shantel VanSanten makes a final (for now?) appearance, as Patty Spivot gets a “great send-off,” Kreisberg assures. And as sad as it is to see Barry lose a romantic interest because of his secret identity, “It’s all a part of his journey this season,” struggling as he has been to avert the sad fate forecast by Wells’ post-mortem video.

https://tvline.com/2016/01/26/the-flash-season-2-preview-reverse-flash-returns/

Quote

Will Patty Spivot ever return to The Flash? –Merilyn

Quite possibly, though that seems a bit less likely now that Shantel Van Santen’s USA Network pilot, Shooter, has been ordered to series. But in a best-case scenario, “We have not seen the last of Patty,” exec producer Andrew Kreisberg told me at the time of her send-off. “We very consciously did not kill her.”

https://tvline.com/2016/03/10/walking-dead-season-6-daryl-carol-spoilers/

------

Aside: looking back a few early Season 2 interviews, it seemed like Candice was anticipating and excited for Iris' storylines with the two new female characters (Patty and Francine), but as we all know, development of those relationships never materialized. 😒

[Trini]

25 minutes ago, Trini said:

Yes, to all this. I have to go back and find the interview, but one of the producers said they thought it'd be funny if Joe had a baby. So it was basically a joke that they really didn't think through.

Found it!

 

Quote

... And as far as the pregnancy thing, when we sit down at the beginning of the year and try to figure out every character, we always try to figure out what we can do to throw people off. It’s usually about this time where your leads get pregnant, so we thought what was the most unexpected thing we could do for Joe. And we love Danielle Nicolette, who plays Cecile. We thought, this guy whose kids are basically getting married, who’s finally an empty nester, is suddenly finding out that he’s going to have a baby. What does that entail? We just thought that would be the funniest thing we could possibly do to Joe. For all of the insane things that he deals with, like meta-humans, breachers, people from other dimensions and time travelers, that “Holy crap, I’m middle-aged and I’m going to have a baby again” thing just seemed like the funniest thing we could do. We’ve been trying to ground the show more in people having real issues without it being so ,“I saw the future!,” or the kinds of problems that people don’t have.

http://collider.com/the-flash-season-4-interview-andrew-kreisberg-danny-trejo/

ugh. Show still needs improvement, but at least Kreisberg is gone.

[SimoneS]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

I only checked two websites, but here are a couple of producer quotes about Barry/Patty:

https://tvline.com/2015/07/11/the-flash-season-2-cast-teddy-sears-jay-garrick-shantel-vansanten/

https://ew.com/article/2015/10/13/flash-wells-francine-west-firestorm-cisco-spoilers/

https://tvline.com/2016/01/26/the-flash-season-2-preview-reverse-flash-returns/

https://tvline.com/2016/03/10/walking-dead-season-6-daryl-carol-spoilers/

------

Aside: looking back a few early Season 2 interviews, it seemed like Candice was anticipating and excited for Iris' storylines with the two new female characters (Patty and Francine), but as we all know, development of those relationships never materialized. 😒

I understand the producers' reason for giving Barry the romance with Patty, but not for having him make the decision to tell her that he is the Flash. The point of keeping his identity secret is to protect the people that he loves, the more people he tells, the more danger he is in. Why on earth would he tell a woman he has been dating for a couple months? Same with Joe. Both characters are at the beginning relationships with women who they barely know and yet they are trusting them with life and death secrets. Maybe in Barry's case, they wanted to use his secret as a way to end the relationship without making it his fault.

Overall, I didn't mind Barry's brief romance with Patty, my big problem is how the show ignored Iris during that time and gave her no point of view. However, that has definitely changed now, maybe it has to do with Kreisberg's departure.

ETA: I liked Todd Helbing saying “Iris is always Barry’s lightning rod." Confirms that despite what we saw on the screen with Patty, Barry and Iris were always going to be a couple.

 

10 hours ago, Trini said:

Found it!http://collider.com/the-flash-season-4-interview-andrew-kreisberg-danny-trejo/

ugh. Show still needs improvement, but at least Kreisberg is gone.

That was a ridiculous reason for giving Joe another child. 

Thanks for sharing these interviews.

Edited December 30, 2018 by SimoneS

[Trini]

5 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I understand the producers' reason for giving Barry the romance with Patty, but not for having him make the decision to tell her that he is the Flash. The point of keeping his identity secret is to protect the people that he loves, the more people he tells, the more danger he is in. Why on earth would he tell a woman he has been dating for a couple months? Same with Joe. Both characters are at the beginning relationships with women who they barely know and yet they are trusting them with life and death secrets. Maybe in Barry's case, they wanted to use his secret as a way to end the relationship without making it his fault.

Oh yeah, I think they deliberately made it so that Patty was dumping Barry, and not the other way around.

With the Secret stuff in general, I think they just didn't want to play the 'secret identity' tropes over again like they did with Iris in Season 1 - which many people (including in the media) complained about. With Joe/Cecile, in particular, they are pretty low priority for the show so I don't think it mattered that much to them if she knew The Secret. And it was also a way to show that the relationship was going to be long term. And with Barry/Patty, it was an easy out.

[adora721]

16 hours ago, ruby24 said:

For one, that kid is never going to be part of the plot, so we'll likely never see her.

I've read speculation before the baby was born that 

Spoiler

it would be a version of Daniel West, who is a comic villain. 

However, they made the child a female named Jenna. It's possible Nora or Eobard's time travel shenanigans will make that speculation a reality at the end of  S5.

Edited December 30, 2018 by adora721

[Brinny]

17 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I think the decision to make them have a baby was a miscalculation. For one, that kid is never going to be part of the plot, so we'll likely never see her. Two, the fact that they still haven't gotten married, and they haven't even addressed them getting married or not getting married, shows how little the writers care about the relationship and the child. 

I mean, they could have easily had a conversation where they both decide that they actively DON'T want to get married again, since their previous marriages failed and they just want to do it differently this time, but to not even address it when they're having a kid? After this all this time it seems like such an oversight. 

I don't know why this would need to be addressed? I mean, I'm all for West family interactions (love me some slice of life, domestic superhero crap, it's my jam), but it seems pretty obvious that Joe and Cecile are committed to one another. They have a child together, they live together, they appear very much in love, I don't know why we need confirmation in the form of a conversation. Some people just don't get married. Do we even know if Cecile was married to Joanie's father previously? Eh, this is just something that has never really bothered me. 

Also, the fact that we never see baby Jenna feels about right for television. I think it would be more noticeable if Joe and Cecile were more the forefront this season (which is a shame that they haven't been so far), but as it stands right now, it's not much of an issue. Other than, I guess, Iris never really mentioning her sister. It was definitely an odd choice from a story telling perspective.  Having pets or babies is always so troublesome for storylines TV, though. If the show does run long enough for Nora, or whichever other West-Allen spawn they choose to introduce, to make an appearance as a baby, I wonder how they'll work that out? Hard to have your two main characters off saving the world all the time when a baby requires constant care. And if they're always dumping the kid off on Cecile or Joe or Wally or whoever to babysit, that doesn't look great either. Time will tell, I suppose. 

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

I don't know why this would need to be addressed? I mean, I'm all for West family interactions (love me some slice of life, domestic superhero crap, it's my jam), but it seems pretty obvious that Joe and Cecile are committed to one another. They have a child together, they live together, they appear very much in love, I don't know why we need confirmation in the form of a conversation. Some people just don't get married. Do we even know if Cecile was married to Joanie's father previously? Eh, this is just something that has never really bothered me. 

Also, the fact that we never see baby Jenna feels about right for television. I think it would be more noticeable if Joe and Cecile were more the forefront this season (which is a shame that they haven't been so far), but as it stands right now, it's not much of an issue. Other than, I guess, Iris never really mentioning her sister. It was definitely an odd choice from a story telling perspective.  Having pets or babies is always so troublesome for storylines TV, though. If the show does run long enough for Nora, or whichever other West-Allen spawn they choose to introduce, to make an appearance as a baby, I wonder how they'll work that out? Hard to have your two main characters off saving the world all the time when a baby requires constant care. And if they're always dumping the kid off on Cecile or Joe or Wally or whoever to babysit, that doesn't look great either. Time will tell, I suppose. 

I was thinking about this, and something they could actually do when Iris has the twins is hire some kind of nanny who later turns out to be working for a villain, so that it's  a subplot or something on the side that could turn out to have some relevance later. It keeps the babies offscreen for most of the time, BUT includes a new character that is there to keep tabs on the West-Allens for nefarious purposes down the line, and then would be able to include consistent references to their kids without putting them onscreen all the time. 

[Proteus]

I'll be surprised if the show ever saddles Iris with a bunch of kids to raise onscreen.

But who says Iris will ever even have twins? That could be from the aborted time line that no longer exists because Thawne changed things. Heck, that's why I think he mentioned Dawn & then realized he was wrong & she was Nora because that time line & those kids no longer exist.

Edited December 30, 2018 by Proteus

[Trini]

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

I don't know why this would need to be addressed? I mean, I'm all for West family interactions (love me some slice of life, domestic superhero crap, it's my jam), but it seems pretty obvious that Joe and Cecile are committed to one another. They have a child together, they live together, they appear very much in love, I don't know why we need confirmation in the form of a conversation. Some people just don't get married. Do we even know if Cecile was married to Joanie's father previously? Eh, this is just something that has never really bothered me. 

Not everyone gets married (in real life or fiction), but it would be in character for Joe, so the fact that their ignoring this typical relationship milestone while also rushing him and Cecile having a baby is odd to me.

[SimoneS]

57 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I'll be surprised if the show ever saddles Iris with a bunch of kids to raise onscreen.

But who says Iris will ever even have twins? That could be from the aborted time line that no longer exists because Thawne changed things. Heck, that's why I think he mentioned Dawn & then realized he was wrong & she was Nora because that time line & those kids no longer exist.

 

I think that twins are coming because of Barry's line when he came out of the Speed Force, "we are going to need more diapers." Iris is going to have to have at least one child before Barry disappears in 2024 so she will have to be pregnant in the next two or three years (or maybe next season). I expect the show will last at least three more seasons although it is unlikely to make it to 2024. Maybe they will do a flash forward as @Starry suggested on the spoiler thread. This will allow us to see Barry and Iris with their child (or twins) before he disappears and after he reappears (no way he will be gone for 25 years) before the show ends. I mentioned on the spoiler thread that in The Flash Rebirth, Wally's twins age rapidly because of the Speed Force, this is another option for the show as it allows them to avoid Barry and Iris being saddled with either one or two babies.

Edited December 30, 2018 by SimoneS

[ursula]

49 minutes ago, Proteus said:

But who says Iris will ever even have twins?

Well the short answer is that Iris West and the Tornado Twins are legacy characters in one of DC's tier-one superheroes' mythology. So while they can play fast and loose with the Arrow and Killer Frost, etc, they're not going to, to put it simply, write fanfiction where the twins don't exist and/or Barry ends up with someone not-Iris. 

They might do some creative retelling with this but in the end, Barry and Iris are going to be parents to the Tornado Twins.

[Brinny]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I think that twins are coming because of Barry's line when he came out of the Speed Force, "we are going to need more diapers." Iris is going to have to have at least one child before Barry disappears in 2024 so she will have to be pregnant in the next two or three years (or maybe next season). I expect the show will last at least three more seasons although it is unlikely to make it to 2024. Maybe they will do a flash forward as @Starry suggested on the spoiler thread. This will allow us to see Barry and Iris with their child (or twins) before he disappears and after he reappears (no way he will be gone for 25 years) before the show ends. I mentioned on the spoiler thread that in The Flash Rebirth, Wally's twins age rapidly because of the Speed Force, this is another option for the show as it allows them to avoid Barry and Iris being saddled with either one or two babies.

I feel like rapid aging is something that works in the comics, but maybe less so on a television show. (I mean, unless it's a straight up soap opera, which is why the term SORAS exists.) Like, it might be weird to explain to Cpt. Singh (or whomever) why Barry's kids went from newborns to toddlers to teens in such a short span, no? 

That being said, I agree that Barry and Iris having kids on the show is inevitable if it's still running for the next couple of years. I'm not sure if they'll do the tornado twins (although, I would love something more than just lip service for the "more diapers" line as well, if only because I'm pretty sure we've heard everything else Barry has said when he came out of the Speed Force), but I definitely think they'll have a baby. And I'll say it again (and until I'm blue in the face), I cannot stress enough how much I hope that if they do have twins, they are not named Dawn and Don. 

[SimoneS]

@Brinny, with Thawne changing the timeline, I think that it is unlikely that Barry and Iris' twins will be named, Dawn and Don. It is more likely they will be called, Nora and Bart or Nora and Henry.

[Velocity23]

19 hours ago, ursula said:

Well the short answer is that Iris West and the Tornado Twins are legacy characters in one of DC's tier-one superheroes' mythology. So while they can play fast and loose with the Arrow and Killer Frost, etc, they're not going to, to put it simply, write fanfiction where the twins don't exist and/or Barry ends up with someone not-Iris. 

They might do some creative retelling with this but in the end, Barry and Iris are going to be parents to the Tornado Twins.

If they do them i doubt it will be in the present time. The problem will become if the production team can deal with babies on a regular babies. And this will have to be different than Cecile and Joe because Barry and Iris are the main couple. 

[BkWurm1]

8 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

Well the short answer is that Iris West and the Tornado Twins are legacy characters in one of DC's tier-one superheroes' mythology. So while they can play fast and loose with the Arrow and Killer Frost, etc, they're not going to, to put it simply, write fanfiction where the twins don't exist and/or Barry ends up with someone not-Iris.

There's no reason they would ditch Iris and Barry as a couple unless there is a behind the scenes shake up but the show has already acknowledged the twins and explained them away.  They've hung their lampshade so they wouldn't have to go to twins.

[Trini]

This show has never been subtle. Besides comic canon, the show itself has shown hints of children, and twins in particular; so I think it's more likely than not that the Tornado Twins will show up in some capacity eventually.

 

On 12/30/2018 at 6:46 PM, Brinny said:

I feel like rapid aging is something that works in the comics, but maybe less so on a television show. (I mean, unless it's a straight up soap opera, which is why the term SORAS exists.) Like, it might be weird to explain to Cpt. Singh (or whomever) why Barry's kids went from newborns to toddlers to teens in such a short span, no? 

There are several ways they can get around having to deal infants, though. In another thread I suggested a time jump, or they can do some other timeline shenanigans. Or delay until the last season.

[SimoneS]

10 hours ago, Trini said:

There are several ways they can get around having to deal infants, though. In another thread I suggested a time jump, or they can do some other timeline shenanigans. Or delay until the last season.

I think the solution is that if they know ahead of time that they are heading into their final season, they do a time jump to 2023 where we see Barry and Iris with their four year old twins along Team Flash and their friends doing whatever they can to prevent Barry's predicted 25 year disappearance. 

[BkWurm1]

I kind of expect the Crisis on Infinite Earths to rush the timeline on Barry vanishing forward and have it done and dealt with next year.  Or maybe even have him vanish and then they can angst for a while about bringing him back.  

[SimoneS]

Okay, I am done my re-watch. I liked several posts from when the episodes aired, but want to share my thoughts about Barry and Iris. The show got so lucky with the casting of the actors. Both Grant and Candice are talented and committed to selling Barry and Iris' relationship from the first episode. Barry has clearly been in love with Iris since he was a boy and she is truly his lightning rod. The moment he declared his love for her, Iris' love for him which was buried started to emerge. But the show has made too many mistakes along the way and continues to make them. My main complaints: Iris was kept in the dark about Barry being The Flash for too long. It marginalized her from Team Flash and the main story of most episodes. Iris' relationship with Eddie should have ended when he was saved from Thawne. Instead the show pretended that she never confessed her feelings for Barry and reunited her with Eddie. Making Iris invisible in the first half of season 2 when Barry was dating Patty. Patty should have dumped Barry because she came to the realization that he was in love Iris. I will give the engagement/break up/re-engagement a pass, but not having Barry and Iris having their wedding on the show was unforgivable. I also don't like how few romantic scenes they have had since they have been married. Nora's arrival on the scene has made them closer, but it feels like they have aged 10 years overnight. Where is the fun and romance in their relationship outside of The Flash adventures? 

Edited January 14, 2019 by SimoneS

[ruby24]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

 Where is the fun and romance in their relationship outside of The Flash adventures? 

This is probably my biggest problem with the relationship since the beginning of the show. It makes me think these people simply don't know how to write "romance and fun." That should have been the case with these two from the time they first started dating and the scenes just weren't written. They weren't there.

[Trini]

I think they can write fun and romance when they want to (season 3 and season 4 before the crossover had a lot of good moments), but it's just not a priority most of the time. Since even when they write and film scenes, some end up getting cut anyway. Which is dumb, because as noted, Grant and Candice are both awesome and awesome together; so why would you waste that chemistry?
 

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I also don't like how few romantic scenes they have had since they have been married. Nora's arrival on the scene has made them closer, but it feels like they have aged 10 years overnight.

I've said this before, but I think they should have waited a while longer before getting them engaged; and that might have helped with getting more 'couple' moments between them, because TV writers tend to lose interest in that once a couple is hitched.

And yeah, since now Barry & Iris are parents (sort of) they've forgotten they're still newlyweds. Seeing them in parental roles is interesting, but they need a balance. Although, "All Doll'd Up" (which was great!) seemed like it was written to address those concerns.
 

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

but not having Barry and Iris having their wedding on the show as unforgivable.

I mean - they knew about it way beforehand, they heard the backlash and complaints (not just from fangirls on the internet, but critics in the media), and the fact that this pivotal milestone for the leads happened essentially offscreen and they still haven't tried to rectify it is just astounding. Again, an example of their priorities.