Relationships: Speed Dating

[Trini]

23 hours ago, doram said:

Oh I definitely think that by 2B, the writers had resigned themselves to Westallen. But they had no enthusiasm for it. Their "slower moving ship" is not by design, but by accident, the consequence of the uncertainty/reluctance of committing to Westallen from about mid-way of Season 1 to mid-way of Season 2, basically a whole season's length of the show being undecided about their OTP.

I think the only 'reluctance' would be in the first part of Season 2. Iris did have feelings for Barry at the end of Season 1.
 

Quote

The problem with Barry/Patty in 2A was that there were only 2 people in that relationship: Barry and Patty. No Iris. She had no dynamic in it. Apart from the throwaway "she's not Iris", the entire relationship exists purely for Barry and Patty. And there is absolutely no way that if the writers felt a smidgen of enthusiasm for Westallen, that they'd have written Barry/Patty this way. 

Similarly, it's also telling that there's never been any other props since the writers ticked the checklist of getting Westallen together.

If anything, Barry and Patty were so self-contained so that it would be easy to write Patty out. "She's not Iris" isn't a throwaway at all; it's the basis of the relationship.

Not sure what you mean by 'props' but do established couples need prop characters? The narrative reinforces them, but there's also the parallels with the DeVoes this season.
 

Quote

Season 3 as a whole really dropped the ball hard in the "Barry is driven by worry over Iris" all season long. It's actually a good example of Things Not To Write with a storyline like that. Don't write:

A storyline where the guy breaks up with the love of his life and condemn her to living alone for any duration of time while a maniac has vowed to kill her, and he is supposedly having repeated nightmares about her death.

A storyline where the hero promises the love of his life that she needn't worry, if she died, he would be there for her father.

The hero to be completely chill over the fact that one of his best friends is/will be complicit in her murder and shows no remorse over it.

A future-time-travel episode where the hero sees his fiancee's grave, and how wrecked he is in his future, and then decides to hang around and then completely ignore her when he returns.

A man observe his fiancee/long-time love/best friend-since-childhood wear the clothes he has repeatedly seen her be murdered in and have zero reaction to it.

And there are many more, I'm sure but these are just the most glaring. But most importantly don't write a storyline at all where the man - any version of the man - murders the love of his life for cold, ruthless ambition. 

I agree, there were some things they should have done differently in season 3; and I can't tell you how to watch the show, but some of these are just wrong or intepreted in the the most negative way.
 

5 hours ago, doram said:

...

As I said, the writers had resigned themselves to Westallen by 2B, so their steps cementing it from that point onwards were to be expected. But writers saying they "like" a character, storyline, relationship... talk is cheap. Julie Plec claimed to love Bonnie Bennett - the worst treated character in Vampire Diaries. Never evaluate a character by how much the writers say they love them but how well they write for them: story quality, importance, relationship with other characters. Are they given narrative currency or delegated to B plots or background? Do they have lines?

...

Even if you don't believe the statements from the various producers and writers, there's plenty in the show to point to them liking it and wanting to move forward with Barry & Iris as a couple. If they didn't want to do it, they... wouldn't do it. It wouldn't be the first time a pairing has been squashed. Or they could have drawn out the will-they-won't-they indefinitely like every other show. 

They've definitely shown that the relationship is important, not just to Barry personally, but to his role as a hero also.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Barry is 28 at this point. Since the writers now have Caitlin as an MD, she should be older than the other characters like Iris, Wally, and Cisco. If she has an MD, she should be at least 5 years older than the rest of the group. That would put her a little closer to Harry's age. Of course, the writers are very inconsistent with her training so there's no way to know how old she is. Either way, I'm on board for a SnoWells romance!

I think Barry/Caitlin/Cisco are all supposed to be about the same age. Caitlin and Cisco are typical TV supergeniuses, so I don't think you can really calculate their ages by their degrees.

[paulvdb]

58 minutes ago, Trini said:

I think Barry/Caitlin/Cisco are all supposed to be about the same age. Caitlin and Cisco are typical TV supergeniuses, so I don't think you can really calculate their ages by their degrees.

I agree. There is also the fact that actors, especially women, rarely play older than their real age. It's much more common for actors to play younger. In this case I think Barry, Iris, Cisco and Caitlin are all supposed to be in their late twenties.

[tofutan]

Quote

Caitlin's treatment isn't that she's not important, it's that she's too sacred.

If Caitlin was sacred that Barry would be reacting more personally when things happen to her. So far the majority of the "bringing Caitlin away from the brink" scenes have gone to Cisco from what I remember, not Barry. 

I think the Killer Frost storyline is too jumbled and inconsistent for me to buy that it is written with care and love rather than to provide adrenaline moments. Yes, some writers have fun with Killer Frost, but not to the extent to actually craft a deep and meaningful story from it. 

I see nothing wrong with writers coming up with stories to give characters they intend to keep around something to do, just like they do for Wells and Cisco. The problem is that a lot of the time the same wasn't done for Iris because from the point of view of the writers "being the object of Barry's desire" is already "something to do". 

Badguys being kept around despite having done crappy things to the lead character and the lead characters loved ones because somebody finds them entertaining  is something you find on a lot of shows. 

The writers just don't feel as strongly about "but she peed on Iris carpet" as some of the fans do, when they view the show through an Iris lense. How many people have Snart and Rory murdered? Doesn't matter, they are entertaining! 

[Proteus]

9 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I agree. I know it's a big age difference and the CW doesn't do age differences, but let's be honest, it's not like it never happens in real life. Especially with older men and younger women. I don't normally like it for the sleaze factor, but once the younger person is into their thirties, I actually think this becomes less of an issue, depending on the connection between the two people. I could buy Caitlin and Wells. She's always had chemistry with him, strangely enough. They have things in common and there's a real tenderness there. 

They'll never do it, but I honestly believe it's a pairing that could work.

With everyone else pairing up, it'd make sense for Caitlin & Harry being the odd ones out to turn to eachother and bond.

Yeah, you really saw that tenderness in the last episode at Jitters.

8 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I love the idea of SnoWells. I think they have nice chemistry, too. They have fanfics and everything. 

As for Caitlin's age, she must be older than that. I know that Danielle is 30, but that doesn't mean Caitlin is as well. 

 

Barry is 28 at this point. Since the writers now have Caitlin as an MD, she should be older than the other characters like Iris, Wally, and Cisco. If she has an MD, she should be at least 5 years older than the rest of the group. That would put her a little closer to Harry's age. Of course, the writers are very inconsistent with her training so there's no way to know how old she is. Either way, I'm on board for a SnoWells romance!

Barry mentioned in season 1 that he, Cisco, & Caitlin were all in their twenties. So I think we're supposed to see all three as the same age.

Pairing Caitlin/Harry would also take care of the problem of bringing on a new guy for Caitlin again. I'm still bitter about Julian being gone.

[Kate45]

37 minutes ago, doram said:

5 hours ago, tofutan said:

I see nothing wrong with writers coming up with stories to give characters they intend to keep around something to do, just like they do for Wells and Cisco. The problem is that a lot of the time the same wasn't done for Iris because from the point of view of the writers "being the object of Barry's desire" is already "something to do". 

No, there isn't. But when they clearly enjoy coming up with stories for Caitlin, in a way that they don't (again pre-season 4) for Iris, then there's a problem. And no, writers don't really think like that. If they want to write for a character, it doesn't matter what box they've put that character in. If they felt that was all Iris was (object of Barry's desire), then they'd be constantly damselling her, or writing love triangles for Westallen. Basically, if they only saw Iris performing a Love Interest role and they wanted to write for Iris, then they'd use that. 

I said once that part of the reason why Caitlin keeps getting all these ridiculous plots is because structurally, she doesn't fit in the show, and hasn't for a long time. But the writers keep conjuring plot for her. They want to keep Caitlin around. They have to keep Iris around.

I think you are correct in this belief. Keep in mind that Kreisburg, former super producer for the Flash and the other Arrowverse shows, is a very close friend of Danielle Panabaker. Even before the show began, Danielle and Kreisburg were very close. That would explain why they were willing to change the role of Caitlin from a woman in her late 30s to early 40s who had an MD, and 2 PhDs to making her a much younger woman and seemingly taking away her MD at first. The role of Caitlin was supposed to be a love interesting for season 1's Dr. Wells. 

43 minutes ago, doram said:

5 hours ago, tofutan said:

I think the Killer Frost storyline is too jumbled and inconsistent for me to buy that it is written with care and love rather than to provide adrenaline moments. Yes, some writers have fun with Killer Frost, but not to the extent to actually craft a deep and meaningful story from it. 

It's jumbled and inconsistent because the writers don't want Caitlin to "touch" the ugly side of a storyline like that. So it's written to absolve her of responsibility, to keep her as technically blameless as possible.

Her meta-powers aren't just the result of bad luck, wrong-place-at-the-wrong-time like every one else on the show - oh no, she has to be Barry's victim. Even with that, of all the metas in this show, she's the only one whose powers is tied to a complete personality change. So apart from being unwillingly forced to be a meta, Caitlin is never responsible for Killer Frost's actions. And to make her even more sacred, she's not even really Killer Frost, is she? She's never actually killed anyone. 

Even when the storyline would improve by doing the opposite, even when it defies logic, the writing protects Caitlin.

This is what I mean by her being sacred.

Another thing to keep in mind: all of the writing staff (save for one person Judalina) either left or was fired at the end of season 3. One of the writers (Sterling Grant is his name, I think), either currently writes or wrote the Frost character in the comics. In the comics, her name is just Frost at this point, from my understanding. She's an anti-hero, but not a villain. 

The writing does work to protect Caitlin, and I will continue to say that same thing about Iris. I do believe the "Iris is nearly-perfect" writing of Iris is the writers way of trying to protect Iris. Kinda like the list of infractions I made before, Iris hardly ever makes any mistakes. I'm sure I missed some things that she has done, but it's clear that the writers don't want people to hate Iris. The fact that people still do, despite all of her perfections, shows that something else is likely at play. Candice is a strong actress, and is the only one outside of Grant that has actually won an award for her work on this show. If a fan of this show hates Iris, its likely a situation of racism or misogyny or both. Just my opinion. You can see it in the way that she fans will make up "facts" about Iris and say it happened on the show. For example, I recently had a Caitlin fan say that Iris told Caitlin to kill herself last year?!?!?! Of course, they couldn't tell me which episode this happened in. 

The Killer Frost writing didn't start out as a protection of Caitlin, but it has certainly taken that turn. With the current set-up she is absolved of all guilt. In the same way as Magenta from 3x03. Even going back to season 2, I think the writers knew that Caitlin could be forgiven of a lot more than Iris could be forgiven of, if that makes sense. Think back to the SnowStorm romance. Caitlin's initial reactions to Ronnie being alive, but having someone else take over his body, were pretty negative. However, the fandom didn't really have a problem with it, and mostly seemed to agree with her POV.  Fast forward to Iris having a less negative reaction to not wanting to bring Barry back if it meant the city was a risk, and her haters are still angry with her about her selfishness and her "not wanting Barry back". I know that narrative placement plays a role in this too, but it was a comparison I could think of.

Anther example is the writers having Caitlin date Jay six months after Ronnie died. Fandom didn't care too much about that, some were just really happy to see her move on. Fast forward to Iris thinking about dating Scott. I remember some really nasty comments about her dishonoring Eddie's memory. Funny enough, some of these same people were the ones cheering on Caitlin for dating Jay. We now know that Caitlin dating Jay was simply a plot point. 

I do also think the writers may want people to see that Caitlin is desirable, even if Barry is not interested. I think this could be subconscious. I remember at SDCC 2016, the producers saying that Caitlin would be single in season 3. We know that didn't happen. The producers said the same thing at SDCC 2017. However, it seems that Cait is making connections to Ralph and Harry...just like she did in the season 3 winter finale with Julian. I will be pleasantly surprised if she ends the season without having a love interest.    

[Trini]

6 hours ago, doram said:

It's a line that is not followed through so yes, it is throw-away. And Barry/Patty weren't self-contained. She was linked into the Zoom storyline but the constant "damselling" that the show did of her, right down to Barry having nightmares of her being murdered by Zoom. External characters even commented on their relationship and the Flash's feelings for her, etc. 

So which is it? I was responding to you saying the relationship exists only for Barry and Patty.

---

Caitlin is has always been used a a plot device (she's a support character, not surprising or unusual), but I also think they enjoy writing for Killer Frost, who is a bit more 'exciting'.

[Trini]

Another thing with Caitlin and her love life is that Ronnie was supposed to be around longer (or more often) but Robbie Amell wanted to move on to other roles. They may have been also trying to fill that gap with Jay in season 2.

[Kate45]

On 12/31/2017 at 2:10 PM, doram said:

And yes, there is a stark double standard between how large parts of fandom "judge" Iris and how they judge Caitlin. I'm not convinced that the writers over-perfect Iris just to compensate for that, though. And of course there's still a difference between writing an overly perfect character and not writing for a character.

For example, the writing for Iris in season 4 is definitely harking back to her 1A role and personality on the show where she... lol, essentially had a personality. So she can snark about Olicity crashing her wedding (but #notbitter ;) ) and they can give her difficult lines like being vocally emotionally affected by Barry's disappearance. And haters will hate - by now the showrunners know this - and it's not stopping them. There's obviously someone in the creative team who not only likes Iris but enjoys writing for her. And it's not perfect but it's much better than season 3 and heads and shoulders above 2A.

I agree with this for the most part. I really like Iris' writing this season, and they have given her more of a POV. Of course, because she has more of a POV, the haters are out in full-force. The difference between season 1 and now is that unlike season 1, Candice/Iris has pretty strong support from the professional critics. So, now the haters just look like, well, haters. 

In season 3, after Iris found out about her impending death, her initial reaction was normal. In the follow-up episode, 3x11 (Dead or Alive, written by Zack Stentz, who really loves Iris and Candice) she was given a realistic POV. She was shown to be taking life-risking chances in order to show that her life mattered. She was allowed to voice that she was actually scared, and that she didn't want to die. She was allowed to feel uncertain about her future and even the idea that Barry may not be able to save her. Unfortunately, Zack left after that episode, and Iris went to just supporting Barry and never wavering in the belief that he could save her. They literally never even had Iris address the fact that Barry put her in this predicament. 

When she told Barry not to kill Grodd, even if it meant saving her life? That was a low point. For the rest of the season, Iris kept putting herself last, and didn't really process what was happening to her. I don't think she wanted to die, but she was almost too chill about the prospect. It was such an odd choice to make from a story telling standpoint. 

In fairness to the writers, they did allow Iris to be upset about why Barry proposed to her. But, even that was to set-up the plot for the musical. 

On 12/31/2017 at 2:00 PM, Trini said:

Caitlin is has always been used a a plot device (she's a support character, not surprising or unusual), but I also think they enjoy writing for Killer Frost, who is a bit more 'exciting'.

I definitely agree with this. I get the sense that they find Caitlin to be a boring character, and they think that Killer Frost is super interesting in comparison. However, they don't her interesting enough to write an origin story for her, but I digress. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Kate45

[tofutan]

Quote

They want to keep Caitlin around. They have to keep Iris around.

Or: as you said, for Caitlin they have to keep up making random shit to keep her relevant. Iris to them is automatically relevant. And yes, of course they could write interesting whacky stuff for Iris with tons of screentime, but imo Barry has always been their priority. And I agree with the take that in the writers minds they might think they are protecting Iris by giving her relatively uncontroversial storylines (as we can see, haters can even turn stories that are really uncontroverisal compared to what everybody else is doing into things to hate over). And another aspect might be that they just envision Westallen as a deeply supportive relationship for Barry (and one could argue that Lauriver and Karamel are examples of trying to go controversial routes with characters doesn't always work out). 

I still see lack of genuine thought put behind Killer Frost. They have their fun with her, but it doesn't feel like they really commit to her. It's a far cry from other examples I can think of where the badguy ended up dominating the show, like Spike on Buffy or Klaus on Vampire Diaries. Regular characters being spared the consequences of their actions still feels pertty normal to me (Alex from Supergirl comes to mind). 

As for Lauriver. I agree that there were problems to the Laurel character, but killing her off still seemed over the top when they could just have her leave town with a new beau or something. So to me it made sense that killing her got the comic fans riled up just based on the *concept* of them killing off Black Canary, regardless of whether they thought Laurel was that great a character or not. 

As for the fans getting the blame, I don't know how big the influence really was, but if there was an influence, it is not unusual that it would take a season or two to manifest itself. Since there is a considerable time between the airing of an episode (and the subsequent audience reaction) vis a vis when stories are actually planned and then written. 

Regarding chemistry, I'm not convinced that it really works like that that chemistry gets better "with practice". In my experience, unless you are maybe talking really, really, really inexperienced actors who are still learning the basic tools of the craft, in my humble opinion chemistry is more likely to dull over time rather than improve. Which I think has a lot to do with the nature of acting, that for a lot of actors it is interesting to get used to a new screenpartner and sort of learn to figure them out and the longer they know each other, the more it becomes a routine and they find it harder to come up with ideas on how to keep the interaction fresh. 

I also find that online fans seem to have really narrow ideals of what they want their couple to be like. Like I have yet to see any fangroup not whine about how they wish their couple was on hbo just so they could see more hardcore sex scenes. Which to me in the end seems to sort of miss the reality of television. Heck even HBO isn't always quite like the HBO that people seem to have in their mind. 

Which doesn't mean that I think the whole 1950s couple aesthetic is a great and unproblematic decision for Westallen, but I also think online fans can really onesided in how it seems like they want every single couple to be a tear your clothes off couple all the time and seem to consider it a slight when they aren't all the time. Again, not to say that I think that it isn't wrong for Westallen's first time to get lost between the seasons, but the wink-wink-nudge-nudge debates about how much sex everybody is having strike me as tiresome as the constant obsessive wink-wink-nudge-nudge discussions you get about who the top or bottom is in m/m and f/f couples. 

One last thing, Barry and Earth 2 Iris, while I thought that it was really cool to see them play out a very different dynamic, this still ranks among my least favorite Westallen moments, simply because I couldn't get over what an asshole Barry was to me, coming in and not just macking on other-Barry's wife while other-Barry was knocked out but also stealing his hospital moment with Joe. To me this is easily among the most selfish asshole things Barry has done and one where it felt the most like they weren't even aware of it (at least the whole Savitar arc felt like they knew they were being wanna be edgy). 

[Starry]

Hi everyone! New poster here. I apologize in advance for my grammar but English is not my first language ;)

I think the way Westallen was written in 2A was odd and I personally believe the showrunners wanted to see if something else would catch on. There were too many retcons and missed opportunities for my liking. The day they announced they were giving Barry a new love interest for s2, I remember thinking I would take another love triangle over what ended up happening instead (the icing/quasi-erasure of WA). I did want the writers to explore Iris and Barry’s messy emotions. Iris dealing with Eddie’ death and feeling guilty because of her growing feelings for Barry, feelings that were there since before Eddie’s suicide. Barry trying to move on with Patty but dreaming of what he could have had with Iris instead. Basically, I wanted the show to remember what had happened in s1 and expand on it. What we got instead was Iris propping up Spallen while having no PoV over Barry or Eddie, Barry’s half-assed attempt at moving on, the writers retconning Eddie into Iris’ fiancé/love of her life, the writers giving ammo to the “It’s incest” crew and have Patty call Iris Barry’s sister. Notice how neither Eddie nor Linda got a siblings vibe from Barry and Iris but Patty just had to utter the words “Barry’s practically your brother!”. And Iris didn’t even correct her. Also, Linda had history with Barry. Things between them didn’t work out because of his love for Iris (and Iris’ feelings for him…), she came back in s2 but she and Iris didn’t have ONE conversation about it? Unrealistic. Linda could have been a perfect sounding board for Iris.

There’s one thing that made me skeptical though and it was the way the writers set up Spallen. They made her the chaser and Barry the object of her affection. Barry needed multiple pushes before he even decided to go on a date with her, lied to her the entire time about everything (lying to Patty for her own protection was something the writers pulled out of the blue only after they had already decided they wanted her off the show after all). Even the way they kept damseling her was strange. The first time it was Barry and fake Jay who saved her. The second time it was because of her own vendetta against Mardon and not because of anything Barry/Flash related. And the third time (Zoom nightmares/Turtle) the writers had already decided to put her on a bus so what was even the point? Also, the Zoom thing ended up being a red herring. Zoom himself never was after Patty. Contrast that with Reverse Flash/Savitar who both threatened/targeted Iris. There were no external issues keeping Barry and Patty apart. No villain really targeting her. No third party dating/wanting her and causing Barry to angst. Barry and Patty didn’t last because Barry was first unsure (she’s not Iris) and then took the easy way out when the opportunity presented itself, not because of external issues.

I think Olicity are a good example to contrast Spallen (or even Snowbarry) to. Olicity is atypical in my opinion because it was Felicity and not the protagonist who crushed first. But unlike what happened with Spallen, what did the Arrow writers do once they decided that they wanted Oliver with Felicity and that they were serious about it? They introduced a third party (first Barry, then Ray) to cause Oliver to angst. The fact that this (external elements causing angst) didn’t happen with either Patty or Caitlin made it hard for me to see them as serious alternatives to Westallen. Even though Westallen was sadly not the show OTP in 2A, Spallen didn’t seem like a show OTP either.

As for Snowbarry, the few times the writers seemed to consider it it was always from Caitlin’s end. Barry never reciprocated in any way. I started The Flash expecting Snowbarry to happen because that’s how it goes with this type of shows and I’m actually surprised that not only the ship went nowhere, the writers weren’t even tempted to bait it through alternate Earths/timelines (unlike Oliver/Kara). Not even the evil version of Barry wanted Killer Frost.

I think Snowbarry was their back-up plan in case Westallen failed. They didn’t want another Lauriver/Olicity situation so this time they came prepared and started planting some seeds very early on (they were very obvious with their Barry/Ronnie parallels in 1A) only to resort to cheap baiting in 1B (karaoke episode/Snowbate kiss).

I agree that Barry not having a reaction to Caitlin’s betrayals does nothing for Snowbarry because there’s no tension/passion. However, I also agree that the writers are doing too much in trying to shelter Caitlin from blame, which brings me to another relationship (friendship), Snowest. The fact that in this season Iris is allowed to have tension with Cisco, to be upset about Olicity interrupting her park ceremony, to be mad at Barry for leaving her but can’t get mad at either Caitlin or Killer Frost is very telling. Iris spent the bachelorette episode propping up Caitlin/Killer Frost, who NEVER apologized to her for dragging her to the chopping block. Their dynamic is currently too unbalanced for me which is sad because I wanted to root for them.

[tofutan]

Yeah, I think as a rule of thumb, particularly male writers perfer stories were the man is the chaser. Exceptions exist, but many that jump to my mind were initially unplanned like Olicity or Stefan/Caroline. 

I think that that was one of various hurdles that Kara/James also faced. Since Kara is the protagonist and being the chaser or yearner is considered the meatier role, she was the one pining over James while he was in a relationship (basically reverse Westallen), but I think a lot of particularly male writer (yes, even ones not called Kreisberg) have problems empathizing with character dynamics like that. Like because they don't buy that the the man would ever turn down the OTP woman if she was yearning for him or because they think that if the man isn't taking the woman up on her offer it must be because he doesn't think she's hot. 

But then again, the showrunner was a woman during Spallen, so maybe that had some influence. 

I just want to add, continuing from the Lightning Rod topic, I don't see too many similarities between Patty and Felicity, but I agree that for a longterm relationship their character dynamics with her being hyper too probably wouldn't have worked. That some amount of balancing between a fictional couple (like Felicity balancing Oliver's broodyness or Iris grounding Barry in various ways, from his angst to his humor) makes a lot of sense. 

Complete agreement about Snowbarry though. There's plenty of places where the writers could have gotten cute with them and played with them in a way that wouldn't compromised Barry as a character (like do stuff between Savitar and Killerfrost, or give them the kind of deep friendship they gave Caitlin and Cisco, or just have him be way more emotional about saving her in a way that still had plausible deniability as being just Barry being his normal hero self). Instead they imo intentionally didn't go for those opportunities. It's really noticeable when you come across Snowbarry fans who keep getting their hopes up about things like the evil versions of the characters hooking up or Barry trying to help with the Killerfrost situation being this big and meaty dynamic and they usually end up getting nothing. 

IMO Barry and Caitlin don't even have a meaningful friendship, even aside from being a far cry away from Barrry showing romantic interest in her. It strikes me as an intentional thing that so people don't even have a leg to stand on to argue that they have such a great relationship, if only it was romantic it would be so much healthier than Westallen. No. Barry and Caitlin don't have that kind of friendship, Caitlin and Cisco have. Which again, is either a "present" to Cisco, so he can have something special or intentionally putting the kibosh on shippers. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by tofutan

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

Olicity is atypical in my opinion because it was Felicity and not the protagonist who crushed first.

Could not disagree more. It was pretty much mutual and you could literally see Oliver light up and smile naturally for the first time in his first scene with Felicity. I'd read where that was where Stephen broke character, and the chemistry was really there--something that was totally lacking with respect to Laurel, who was the worst iteration of this character I've ever seen. But as I've said here and elsewhere before, chemistry is subjective.

And as for Patty? I never, once, ever thought that she would be joining the cast as a permanent character. I didn't know anything about her comic character, then looked it up and discovered that in comics, apparently she and Barry did date. She was always a guest star; never made part of the main cast. So I remain befuddled at all these theories about her and Barry and how she was brought in to take over/replace Iris. For me, Barry and Iris are as iconic as Supes/Clark and Lois are. And because in comics, Oliver repeatedly cheated on Dinah, I never thought of them as an iconic couple, so had no problem with the show veering from that and having Oliver and Felicity fall in love. I always knew that Patty was going to be temporary. Her perkiness got on my last damned nerve, and as is typical, when her arc was nearing its end, oh look! She joined the police department to avenge her daddy's murder, and not because she just wanted to be a cop like she said at first. And she pushed, and pushed to be on the task force and was partnered with Joe. Who didn't want her on the task force or as his partner.

And all Superheroes lie about their super powers. That's not something I hold against them or consider some great big deal breaker or "sin," and seem to be a minority of one when it comes to that. That's the staple of comics.

As for Smallville? The original creators just thought Kristen (Lana) was "really hot*" and that's why I think they kept her on as long as they did; and they are also the ones that thought it would be "cool*" to bring in Lois while Clark was still in high school, even though every comic or graphic novel I'd ever read, Clark and Lois didn't meet until he'd graduated from college, moved to Metropolis and joined The Daily Planet. The fact that that show totally fucked over canon is a rant for another forum and thread, which I've done my fair share of. As for racism with respect to Lana? Hell, I didn't even know that Kristen was part Asian. I just loathed the character and her perfect pink princessy-ness and holding Clark and every guy that fell for her, to an unreasonable standard and playing like she was some abandoned orphan who was never raised with love. Their idea of Lois also SUCKED. I won't use up this thread to list again everything I hate about her, and that the actress who played her can't act her way out of a paper bag.

*Their own words in interviews. 

And I'll take the rest of what I have to say over to the Lightening Rod thread...as it's more appropriate there.

[tofutan]

Lauriver is a weird case because to me when they had sex was like the only time when they looked decent together. They much more lacked the "everything else" chemistry when just having normal scenes together. 

I think it's a pretty hard stretch to say Olicity were mutual from the start. Even if you agree that Oliver thought she was sexy or interesting, there was still long periods of time where she was clearly more into him than he other way around and he sought relationships with Laurel and Sara. Chemistry and story are not the same thing. Olicity was lucky, but sometimes couples have chemistry but the writing and the characters just don't support it (like on TVD there was some chemistry in basically all of Caroline's ship but only some made it into bigger loves). Similarly, sometimes, like with Clana, the chemistry can be pretty bad by most people's account (though Clana actually did have fans too, they just didn't frequent the typical watering holes) but in the end the writing decides who Clark loves. 

Whether it matters that a couple is iconic in the comic, I think mostly depends on the creators. You have creators who are fans of the comics (or books when we are talking book adaptions) and writers who seem to get a kick out of screwing with comic canon and subverting it. 

With the Smallville writers, I didn't think highly of Clana either, but it's still pretty obvious that from their point of view they were writing this tragic larger than life love story that could only be torn apart because being near her was literally killing him and they had to heroically give each other up. Was it dumb? Sure. But just because the writers suck at writing relationships doesn't change that they were clearly writing something they thought was supposed to be romantic with soapy bullshit like Lana being blackmailed to marry Lex. 

I think the vast, vast, vast majority of chemsitry is very subjective. I think there's some chemistry that sparks a lot of mainstream attention of people that aren't really in fandom, but a good chunk of couples have "some see it, some don't" type chemistry (Stelena from TVD being a good example of this).  Westallen to me falls in this category too. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by tofutan

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Could not disagree more. It was pretty much mutual and you could literally see Oliver light up and smile naturally for the first time in his first scene with Felicity. I'd read where that was where Stephen broke character, and the chemistry was really there--something that was totally lacking with respect to Laurel, who was the worst iteration of this character I've ever seen. But as I've said here and elsewhere before, chemistry is subjective.

And as for Patty? I never, once, ever thought that she would be joining the cast as a permanent character. I didn't know anything about her comic character, then looked it up and discovered that in comics, apparently she and Barry did date. She was always a guest star; never made part of the main cast. So I remain befuddled at all these theories about her and Barry and how she was brought in to take over/replace Iris. For me, Barry and Iris are as iconic as Supes/Clark and Lois are. And because in comics, Oliver repeatedly cheated on Dinah, I never thought of them as an iconic couple, so had no problem with the show veering from that and having Oliver and Felicity fall in love. I always knew that Patty was going to be temporary. Her perkiness got on my last damned nerve, and as is typical, when her arc was nearing its end, oh look! She joined the police department to avenge her daddy's murder, and not because she just wanted to be a cop like she said at first. And she pushed, and pushed to be on the task force and was partnered with Joe. Who didn't want her on the task force or as his partner.

And all Superheroes lie about their super powers. That's not something I hold against them or consider some great big deal breaker or "sin," and seem to be a minority of one when it comes to that. That's the staple of comics.

As for Smallville? The original creators just thought Kristen (Lana) was "really hot*" and that's why I think they kept her on as long as they did; and they are also the ones that thought it would be "cool*" to bring in Lois while Clark was still in high school, even though every comic or graphic novel I'd ever read, Clark and Lois didn't meet until he'd graduated from college, moved to Metropolis and joined The Daily Planet. The fact that that show totally fucked over canon is a rant for another forum and thread, which I've done my fair share of. As for racism with respect to Lana? Hell, I didn't even know that Kristen was part Asian. I just loathed the character and her perfect pink princessy-ness and holding Clark and every guy that fell for her, to an unreasonable standard and playing like she was some abandoned orphan who was never raised with love. Their idea of Lois also SUCKED. I won't use up this thread to list again everything I hate about her, and that the actress who played her can't act her way out of a paper bag.

*Their own words in interviews. 

And I'll take the rest of what I have to say over to the Lightening Rod thread...as it's more appropriate there.

3

I echo most of your post.  Especially about Lana.  It's really only been in the last couple years or so that it was even pointed out that KK was part Asian and it was like, really?  Oh, I guess. All I remember when she first showed up was how pretty everyone thought she was and then how annoying Lana and her whining about her dead parents got to be.  Dean Cain is about as obviously of Asian decent as she is.  (Which someone also pointed out to me in recent years)  So I seriously dispute that having a thing to do with the dislike of the character. 

Quote

  As for Smallville? The original creators just thought Kristen (Lana) was "really hot*" and that's why I think they kept her on as long as they did; and they are also the ones that thought it would be "cool*" to bring in Lois while Clark was still in high school, even though every comic or graphic novel I'd ever read, Clark and Lois didn't meet until he'd graduated from college, moved to Metropolis and joined The Daily Planet.

Yeah, the show runners were pretty gross in how they talked about KK and Lana in their commentaries.  There was seriously some disturbing obsession going on there.  As for bringing on Lois so soon, that had a lot to do with behind the scenes stuff.  WB was being sued over copyright infringment by the ones who had the rights to Superboy.  (WB had the rights to Superboy while the original creators of the character's families had the rights to Superboy)  They tossed in Lois to bolster up their case that it was actually Superman, not Superboy even though Clark didn't have the name or the costume.  FYI, WB lost their case but we were still stuck with Lois.  

I agree that Patty was never written as anything but a ship stall and filler for the first half of the season.  Really, getting Iris and Barry together any sooner than the second half of the season would have been too soon after having been engaged to Eddie and losing her fiance.  They didn't write about her grief much past the first episode until they were ready to have her find closure but I still see that as a big reason why they brought Patty in.  That and so that there was balance, both Iris and Barry having had a real relationship before they get together.  

[GHScorpiosRule]

48 minutes ago, tofutan said:

I think it's a pretty hard stretch to say Olicity were mutual from the start. Even if you agree that Oliver thought she was sexy or interesting, there was still long periods of time where she was clearly more into him than he other way around and he sought relationships with Laurel and Sara.

Like I said before, chemistry is subjective, and I had no...dog in the game, if you will, and to me, it looked mutual. Sure Oliver dated and slept with Sara, Laurel, Helena, McKenna. I never watched The Vampire Diaries, so can't speak to that.

I saw chemistry with Clark and almost everyone EXCEPT Durance--they gave off a sibling relationship. I was okay with the original creators of Smallville creating its own universe, but when the new showrunners took over, people who had been with the show since day one, suddenly decided to lightswitch and make everything match up with comics! That was it for me. Well, I'd given up a few seasons before. Chemistry wasn't the issue for me as to Lana. Like I said, it was her character I couldn't stand. And I don't think they'd have done the Lana is now also a super hero if they hadn't convinced Kristen to come back for a few episodes. In this universe, we all knew that Lois was sloppy seconds. The best Lois and Clark relationship was on ABC's Adventures of Lois & Clark.

But this is veering too off topic--and the point I guess I want to make is, that I never questioned that Barry and Iris were IT. This show did its own subverting--like making LINDA, who is WALLY's Girlfriend/WIFE, a love interest for Barry. Just Ick.

[Kate45]

1 hour ago, tofutan said:

I think the vast, vast, vast majority of chemsitry is very subjective. I think there's some chemistry that sparks a lot of mainstream attention of people that aren't really in fandom, but a good chunk of couples have "some see it, some don't" type chemistry (Stelena from TVD being a good example of this).  Westallen to me falls in this category too

Yes, yes, yes. It's also important to remember that many variables can play into whether or not a viewer can find "chemistry" between characters. This can include views on race, the genders involved, personality types, the POV the relationship is seen through, and which party does the pursuing, as well as many other factors. These factors can come into play on either a conscious or subconscious level. 

I can't even remember the number of times that people online have told me that they see no "chemistry"  with Grant and Candice, but think that Grant and Danielle have chemistry off the charts. It can take some time, but eventually, they will acknowledge that they don't think people should date across racial lines. I've seen people make this point who are white and minorities. That part doesn't seem to matter. 

Anyways, my point is that chemistry is highly subjective, and the ability to see it based on many factors. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by Kate45

[Primal Slayer]

Lauriver was doomed from the get go, I've never seen a ship set up to fail so fast lol. The cheating followed by the lying followed by the anger. I think they had great chemistry in the 100th episode for the brief time they were actually suppose to be happy and in love. Had they played that from the start I think it could've survived.

I've seen SnowBarry fans but I look at the characters like I look at Buffy/Xander , nothing more then friends. Romantic chemistry may be work if they went for it but I never thought they'd get together. 

Caitlin on her own though.... give her a relationship that survives long term! Her/Ronny were such a waste in every single way,  I was pissed.

22 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

 

Really, getting Iris and Barry together any sooner than the second half of the season would have been too soon after having been engaged to Eddie and losing her fiance.  They didn't write about her grief much past the first episode until they were ready to have her find closure but I still see that as a big reason why they brought Patty in.  That and so that there was balance, both Iris and Barry having had a real relationship before they get together.  

I was disappointed with how they wrote Iris grieving over Eddie, it felt so quick and lackluster for the most part. I thought they could've made a good storyline out of it, especially when they introduced E2 but alas they didn't. 

[Starry]

42 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

Caitlin on her own though.... give her a relationship that survives long term! Her/Ronny were such a waste in every single way,  I was pissed.

Caitlin/Ronnie had so much potential and I am still bitter about it. I hope they can give her a love interest that sticks but I pray to God it's not going to be Ralph.

 

47 minutes ago, Primal Slayer said:

I was disappointed with how they wrote Iris grieving over Eddie, it felt so quick and lackluster for the most part. I thought they could've made a good storyline out of it, especially when they introduced E2 but alas they didn't. 

Everything about Iris in 2A disappointed me. Her lack of grief, Westallen, Iris/Joe, how they handled her mom's return, her lack of relationship with the STAR Labs team (especially Caitlin, they should have set up their friendship in s2).

On a sidenote, I wonder if The Flash is going for comic canon when it comes to Wally and Linda. I don't think Linda briefly dating Barry is going to be a problem but the writers don't seem interested in her OR Wally at all. It's a pity because I think they should expand their horizons and it'd be nice to have a non-scientist/law enforcement member regular.

[tofutan]

Quote

I saw chemistry with Clark and almost everyone EXCEPT Durance--they gave off a sibling relationship. 

And yet I've seen plenty of people who thought they were awesome and way more natural than Clana. And not just out of Lois and Clark loyalty. It's because of things like these that I've just given up trying to argue about chemistry because it's just so different for people. It's obviously not something you can quantify, not even with things like "do a lot of physical touching type acting with each other" or "look at each other a lot even during background scenes". People sometimes cite things like these, yet there are plenty of couples that do that that people don't see a ton of chemistry for. 

And this whole "they seem like siblings to me" has become such a browbeat argument. Again, I believe plenty of people when they say that, but a lot of the time it comes across as trying to smush down a couple the person in question does not like but they don't have a concrete thing to point to like "the actors look scared/grossed out/bored". Again, I do think in most cases people don't mean anything deeper with it, but the underlying implication for people is still "If you ship this, it's like liking incest" or at least "I could never ship this, because that thing you like, to me it's as gross as incest". 

It's a much bigger damnation of a ship than if people just said "their type of chemistry or relationship or story does not appeal to me" because if you do, with that you would leave it open "okay, it's not for me, but it might be for somebody else". 

It's masked as politness because it sounds friendlier than "they have no chemistry/they suck/they can't do their job", because you are giving them the "compliment" of successfully having created a sibling chemistry. But under the hood it's actually way more demeaning than if people just said "they are boring" or "they annoy me" or "they just don't leap off the screen to me" or "I already have a different preference".  Again, I know people don't mean it like that, and I think many probably use it to explain to themselves how they can maybe not hate a couple, but still not love them. But that doesn't mean that it really is the most fitting analogy. 

For me personally, I think Westallen are sweet together, but they don't leap off the screen to me. They are pleasant and they do their job well enough and I like them in a "I like both characters, wish them happiness and believe if then they say they would be happy together" kind of way. I thought Spallen had moments of chemistry (particularly that one kiss where she grabs him kind of forcefully), but the storyline quality was not there and the chemistry was not that good that I was interested in them despite lacking quality. And I can definitely see the argument of how Spallen would have become annoying fast if they had actually been a main couple. Snowbarry, again, nothing special to me, and particularly the last few seasons they barely seem like friends to me. 

I saw moments of chemistry spark between Eddie and Iris, which was strange to me, becauses I found Eddie quite unattractive from a pure physical POV. 

Edited January 2, 2018 by tofutan

[Trini]

8 hours ago, tofutan said:

I just want to add, continuing from the Lightning Rod topic, I don't see too many similarities between Patty and Felicity, but I agree that for a longterm relationship their character dynamics with her being hyper too probably wouldn't have worked. That some amount of balancing between a fictional couple (like Felicity balancing Oliver's broodyness or Iris grounding Barry in various ways, from his angst to his humor) makes a lot of sense. 

Well the Felicity comparisons started with the casting description (which actually included "Felicity" as code for 'quirky hot nerd'); but in the actual execution, she was most similar to Barry himself. If had she stayed on permanently, I think they would have had to alter her personality a bit, since the show has an abundance of "nerd" characters.

 

8 hours ago, tofutan said:

Barry and Caitlin don't have that kind of friendship, Caitlin and Cisco have. Which again, is either a "present" to Cisco, so he can have something special or intentionally putting the kibosh on shippers. 

Cisco and Caitlin were always friends even before the first episode of Flash (on the mini-crossover in Arrow season 2), so I don't think their friendship has much to do with those things specifically.

 

3 hours ago, Starry said:

On a sidenote, I wonder if The Flash is going for comic canon when it comes to Wally and Linda. I don't think Linda briefly dating Barry is going to be a problem but the writers don't seem interested in her OR Wally at all. It's a pity because I think they should expand their horizons and it'd be nice to have a non-scientist/law enforcement member regular.

Well, Iris is that character, but they don't use her as effectively in that role as they should. [insert sighs here] I'll say it again, centering everything at STAR Labs stifles the show.

Edited January 2, 2018 by Trini

[Primal Slayer]

2 hours ago, Starry said:

On a sidenote, I wonder if The Flash is going for comic canon when it comes to Wally and Linda. I don't think Linda briefly dating Barry is going to be a problem but the writers don't seem interested in her OR Wally at all. It's a pity because I think they should expand their horizons and it'd be nice to have a non-scientist/law enforcement member regular.

I don't see them being interested in pursuing it. I think partially because they are a big couple like WestAllem canonically are and they don't have the ability to focus on 2 full time relationships and just aren't interested in pursuing it since Wally isn't the lead. 

While I like to see canon relationships to come to fruition since I've spent so much time with them, if they don't pursue it they just have to be able to replace it with something just as good like YJ has. Leave the other person outof the show so you don't think about it or give them just as powerful of a relationship as well.

[Starry]

1 hour ago, tofutan said:

It's masked as politness because it sounds friendlier than "they have no chemistry/they suck/they can't do their job", because you are giving them the "compliment" of successfully having created a sibling chemistry. But under the hood it's actually way more demeaning than if people just said "they are boring" or "they annoy me" or "they just don't leap off the screen to me" or "I already have a different preference".  Again, I know people don't mean it like that, and I think many probably use it to explain to themselves how they can maybe not hate a couple, but still not love them. But that doesn't mean that it really is the most fitting analogy.

To me “They are like siblings” is the worst thing one could say about a romantic OTP. I could never see it as a compliment or an attempt at being friendlier. It’s like implying that the actors look uncomfortable or even grossed out in romantic scenes. Kissing siblings is in fact seen as taboo/gross.

I agree, it’s less demeaning for detractors to say “I hate them”, “They suck” or “They have no chemistry”. I get offended when a hater states that a couple I love are “like siblings”, lol.

29 minutes ago, Trini said:

Well, Iris is that character, but they don't use her as effectively in that role as they should. [insert sighs here] I'll say it again, centering everything at STAR Labs stifles the show.

I meant apart from Iris ;) We need a recurring character that can get her (and Barry and Joe) out of the lab. But since Linda knows Barry’s not-so-secret identity I’m not sure they wouldn’t force her in there as well. Things were slightly better when there were characters that didn’t know Barry’s secret like Iris and Eddie in s1 and Patty in s2. The writers were forced to get the others out of the lab in order to give those characters screen time. Though I have to say that I have some hope for this trial storyline.

[Trini]

6 minutes ago, Starry said:

I meant apart from Iris ;) We need a recurring character that can get her (and Barry and Joe) out of the lab. But since Linda knows Barry’s not-so-secret identity I’m not sure they wouldn’t force her in there as well. Things were slightly better when there were characters that didn’t know Barry’s secret like Iris and Eddie in s1 and Patty in s2. The writers were forced to get the others out of the lab in order to give those characters screen time. Though I have to say that I have some hope for this trial storyline.

Completely agree that Linda could (should) have been that character, as well as a friend for Iris.

Well, Barry and Joe have their jobs at CCPD, which also doesn't get used as much or as effectively.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I certainly didn’t expect to get that vibe from Lois and Clark, but the obnoxious way she treated him, after pushing herself and inviting her arrogant ass into moving into the Kent home and taking over Clark’s bedroom, plus the enjoyment Clark got whenever Lois stepped into a pile of dog shit, literally, and the gleeful looks in his face, did not, to me, say, yeah, this is a good way to show/set up the iconic couple I know and love. And I do love Clark/Supes and Lois. 

Lois’s behavior and antics had all the earmarks of an annoying sister. Maybe if the hadn’t written her that way, I wouldn’t have gotten that vibe.  And I certainly didn’t and don’t get a sibling vibe from Barry and Iris, either.

[Trini]

From the other thread:

8 hours ago, Starry said:

 

... It may be an unpopular opinion around here but I remember thinking Eddie had much better chemistry with Barry.

 

Nothing tops this ?:

http://flashallens.tumblr.com/post/149998832988

[SevenStars]

I was one of the few Westallen, who liked and enjoyed Eddie/Iris. I have to be honest, I miss Eddie. 

[Kate45]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

On a sidenote, I wonder if The Flash is going for comic canon when it comes to Wally and Linda. I don't think Linda briefly dating Barry is going to be a problem but the writers don't seem interested in her OR Wally at all. It's a pity because I think they should expand their horizons and it'd be nice to have a non-scientist/law enforcement member regular.

I'm fairly certain that the show never intends to actually write Wally as The Flash (until the very end like when the 2024 article is written), so I highly doubt Wally/Linda will ever be a couple on the show. It's my understanding that some of Wally's villains have already been used on the show for Barry. Plus, 

Spoiler

given the strong rumors that Wally is headed to Legends, I think it is even less likely.  

[Trini]

2 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I was one of the few Westallen, who liked and enjoyed Eddie/Iris. I have to be honest, I miss Eddie. 

I liked Eddie/Rick Cosnett too, but I knew he was temporary. I wished they had used him better while he was still on the show.

Edited January 3, 2018 by Trini

[ruby24]

I wish there was something we could do to make them write Barry and Iris more physically intimate and affectionate. Like a real couple.

[Primal Slayer]

I was/am surprised we never got E2 Eddie.

Some couples just aren't that physically intimate/affectionate, I could see that being WestAllen. Kind of like Oz/Willow.

[tofutan]

5 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I certainly didn’t expect to get that vibe from Lois and Clark, but the obnoxious way she treated him, after pushing herself and inviting her arrogant ass into moving into the Kent home and taking over Clark’s bedroom, plus the enjoyment Clark got whenever Lois stepped into a pile of dog shit, literally, and the gleeful looks in his face, did not, to me, say, yeah, this is a good way to show/set up the iconic couple I know and love. And I do love Clark/Supes and Lois. 

Lois’s behavior and antics had all the earmarks of an annoying sister. Maybe if the hadn’t written her that way, I wouldn’t have gotten that vibe.  And I certainly didn’t and don’t get a sibling vibe from Barry and Iris, either.

To me, a Lois is not a Lois unless she is abrasive in some way. In that way, I prefer Smallville's take on Lois over ANY of the recent movie Lois takes. To me, structurally, Lois is supposed to be a foil to Clark. She is supposed to make his life harder. It serves as a contrast to the whole "he's the most powerful, invulnerable, perfectly good creature in the world" thing. Any Lois who is just a pretty nice, strong, sweet lady to me misses the point about what to me Clark and Lois is supposed to be about. 

Also: Superman/Superboy Lois had plenty of similar traits in the old comics back in the day, including Superman/Superboy being kinda gleeful at times in making her suffer. And I never got any kid sister vibe simply because she looked like a grown up woman from the start, especially compared to Lana and Chloe. Not that I agreed with "Clois suck because she looks older than him!!" but it' something I could understand more. 

Lois was a character who was always hated by some in the comics. For me it's okay and normal if she is controversial in fandom. IMO a good Lois should be that. I would rather than that than the bland and unmemorable Loises from the recent movies. Again, to me it works that a hero who many people (imo unfairly) think of as bland and perfect makes a controversial romantic choice. So having Lois just be a normal nice and strong and pretty girl without some sort of edge to it, somebody who everybody would date, really misses the point. The power of Lois and Clark to me comes from the fact that Clark dates her even though many other guys might think that she's too abrasive or mean or demanding to date. 

I'm no expert on Westallen in the comics, but I get the impression that they have a reasonably similar type of relationship to what they have on the show, with a bigger focus on loving and supporting and even if she challenges him it's less "big" than it would be in a Clark/Lois way. 

I think we as fans have a tendency to delude ourselves in regards to our fairness in judging other couples when we have already locked into one couple. If a couple already has our loyalty we are predisposed to focus on the flaws in other couples and see the negatives we can use to your advantages. This is not a concious acts, it just happens automatically. Of course we don't see the good side of other couples, otherwise we would be shipping those couples. It's probably a bigger issues in a case like Lois who entered canon at a time where Lana and Chloe had had years to garner their own fanbases, but people can "lock" into a character or pairing or dynamic very quickly. Which I assume happened with some Snowbarry fans. I get that and I believe at least some of them that they would have locked into Snowbarry even if Iris was white (since similar style ships have been fannishly popular even on shows about only white characters). It's more the "Barry and anybody but Iris" crowd that is interesting. 

I guess you can "anti-lock" into pairings and characters too. And maybe some people are predisposed to dislike the show's official OTP just to be contrarian, regardless of whether the couple deserves it or not. 

As for Star Labs versus reporter stuff: I think the shows devotion to Star Labs goes beyond just Caitlin, since this is also Cisco's core place. I feel like having reporter stuff as an additional leg to stand on was always a long shot and pretty unlikely, since obviously the it would at best be third priority after Star Labs and the CSI stuff. Reporting in Smallville and Lois & Clark worked because the main character was a reporter too. And I get why Iris fan dream of a world where she is allowed to show up Iris with her reporting skills and her own own supporting cast on a more permanent basis, but with the way the priorities of the show are structured and heavily in favor of Barry, again, I never had any illusions about that happening and hence I accept it as an upgrade that the pulled Iris into Star Labs. I think the chance of them getting rid of Star Labs is about as tiny as getting rid of the DEO on Supergirl. Since it's not only practical and all purpose, it also serves as a core location to more than one central supporting character (Cisco, Caitlin, the Welses versus Alex and J'onn). 

Edited January 3, 2018 by tofutan

[ruby24]

This was a moment that definitely called for a deep, profound kiss between Barry and Iris, and he can only bring himself to give her a peck? 

I'm starting to think it's Grant. What's his problem? Why won't he kiss her like he means it?

[Trini]

Really like the continuing theme of Barry discovering new powers in situations related to Iris; I thought it was beautiful visually:

----

And they continue to parallel the West-Allens and the DeVoes: the repetition of "We're the Flash", and "I'm nothing without you". I think Marlize is DeVoe's weakness, like Iris is for Barry, so I'm hoping that Iris is instrumental in stopping Marlize, which helps to stop DeVoe.

[Trini]

No Barry/Iris scenes in the last episode, but somehow Barry managed to mention "Iris is my wife now!" in a completely unrelated conversation!

So is Joe going to put a ring on it, or not? (Have the writers even thought about this?) He seems to me a 'tradtional' kind of guy, who would want to get married before having a baby. And yeah the baby was a surprise, but they've still got a few months. I know they wouldn't before Barry & Iris got married, but now that's over.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Trini

[ruby24]

Maybe it'll happen offscreen over the hiatus. You know, I still feel like Joe is sort of wary about the whole idea of having a baby with this woman in the first place. I wish they would let him vocalize that because I wouldn't blame him at all. They haven't even been together that long! 

[Kate45]

34 minutes ago, Trini said:

No Barry/Iris scenes in the last episode, but somehow Barry managed to mention "Iris is my wife now!" in a completely unrelated conversation!

So is Joe going to put a ring on it, or not? (Have the writers even thought about this?) He seems to me a 'tradtional' kind of guy, who would want to get married before having a baby. And yeah the baby was a surprise, but they've still got a few months. I know they wouldn't before Barry & Iris got married, but now that over.

I agree with this. I'm really shocked that Joe hasn't even mentioned it. But, then again this is the same show that hasn't even mentioned what happened to Wally. Barry went through a trial, he's currently serving a life sentence, and Wally doesn't even check in? Sounds fake to me. 

[Trini]

Flashback to when the show did an actual Valentine's Day episode, featuring 3 power couples, and a proposal that managed not to get spoiled:

[Trini]

Aw, I was rooting for Clifford and Marlize - as a couple - and it's sad that their marriage essentially ended when Clifford "died" at Christmas. Which sucks a bit, because we only got to know them as a couple only for one episode before that. We knew Marlize wasn't taking the body swap all that well from the start, and now it seems the multiple body swaps are affecting Clifford and his relationship with her.

I was hoping we'd get a power couple showdown at the end of the season, but it looks like their relationship will be over by then (or before) one way or another.

[Trini]

I don't know if this counts as a trend, but I've noticed with the promo photos lately, if there are some of Barry and Iris, there's usually at least one with them touching each other. Of course it makes sense that they'd display intimacy /physical closeness since they are married (and previously engaged), but it seems exceptional since they rarely show characters touching. Usually only when they are highlighting another romantic couple.

4.03:

4.07:

None for 4.08, but there were some in the crossover wedding photos:

4.09:

4.10

The next two are from the next upcoming episodes:

Spoiler

4.15:

4.16:

 

Bonus end of Season 3 (3.22):

Edited March 4, 2018 by Trini

[Kate45]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

Bonus end of Season 3 (3.22):

I don't know if it's a trend, but I do love it! Most weeks they are in the promotional pictures together, and it helps me to be excited for the episode.

[Primal Slayer]

I've been rewatching the series and they really need to get Caitlin a full time boyfriend. Her only real relationship thus far has been with Ronnie and that was like all of 3 episodes.  They have her get her flirt on plenty and have the guy of the season be into her but thats about it.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Primal Slayer said:

I've been rewatching the series and they really need to get Caitlin a full time boyfriend. Her only real relationship thus far has been with Ronnie and that was like all of 3 episodes.  They have her get her flirt on plenty and have the guy of the season be into her but thats about it.

Not a bad idea, but I think it'd be tricky(?) for the show to execute well. The show lately hasn't been that interested in the personal lives of anyone that's not in the West-Allen family. Then there's the previous trend of them pairing her with whoever is the season's main guest star, which got old. If they do give her a boyfriend, it might end up being only relevant for 3 episodes anyway, looking at how they've treated the love lives of other supporting characters: Cisco/Cynthia, Wally/Jesse, HR/Tracy hardly got much screentime.

[Primal Slayer]

At least Cynthia/Cisco are in a long distance relationship and got a fair amount of screen time together. 

[Trini]

With Caitlin, I think they had to keep her single this season, just to break the pattern. As long as they don't put her with another 'bad guy', I wouldn't mind her having a love interest next season.

[Trini]

Aww!

[Trini]

So we did want to see Barry & Iris in bed together again, right? :)

Maybe not exactly like this, but I thought it was a sweet scene. Plus, it's really easy to imagine them giving that bed a workout after everyone left!

Since they actually called out that they haven't been giving Barry & Iris enough quality time, I'm hoping that means they'll have more scenes (or more meaningful scenes) in the rest of the season.

-------

In non-WestAllen relationships:

So even though the Harry/Jesse relationship is a minor one for the show, I'm glad we got to see them repair their relationship. And that we got a little bit more info on Harry the man. I still think he's not needed most of the time (if at all), but he was used well here. And Jesse, since they don't know when she'll be back.

Plus, they managed it in a tense, Barry-centric episode, so when the actress who plays Cynthia is available, they better make the most of it! I'm missing Cisco/Cynthia.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Trini

[Katsullivan]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

So we did want to see Barry & Iris in bed together again, right? :)

 

LOL! Good point. 

[iknowyouknow]

The title of this thread is pure perfection :)

I've surprised myself by becoming increasingly fond of the Barry/Iris relationship. In S1, I definitely preferred the idea of Barry ending up with Caitlin. I was wary of Westallen for several reasons: the show reminding us that Barry and Iris were raised essentially as brother and sister throughout their childhoods to the point where they both call Joe "Dad" didn't exactly scream romance to me, my personal dislike for the Lois Lane/Superman trope where the woman falls for the flashy superhero first and THEN is all "oh, yeah, and I'm fond of the human he is as well" (the show ended up dealing with this much better than I'd feared!), the fact that the feelings between them seemed so one-sided, emphasized by Iris seeming to choose Eddie over Barry over and over, and so on. Iris also made a few remarks about not liking or getting Barry's "nerdy" interests, and as a nerd myself, I tend to love when nerds find people who share or at least understand some of those same passions. The nerdy guy/cool popular girl thing that's so popular on TV often ends up feeling like we should feel like the guy is lucky to get a girl so out of his league rather than the more balanced and mutual dynamic I prefer.

So that is a lot of reasons not to initially root for this couple, but somehow I ended up liking and often even loving them. I find them affectionate, loving, and genuinely sweet without being too grossly cutesy. Iris still isn't an especially well-developed and sharply defined character, but a lot of characters on these type of shows aren't, so it doesn't bother me all that much. I do think we've seen a little bit about how she's both similar to and different from Barry in ways that generally work. As always happens with these shows, Iris benefited from finally being in on the secret identity that the audience and about 95% of the other characters have known about the entire time. (In my opinion, keeping Iris in the dark for so long was the one major misstep in an otherwise amazing first season!) I'd prefer her as a journalist or some other career of her own rather than Team leader, but I do see why they wanted to make her more integral to the main storylines. Honestly, I love the actor who plays Barry and the actress who plays Iris to the point where they usually rise above the material for me even when the writing gets too CW-ish. 

I still love both Caitlin and Cisco too and have occasionally wondered if they're eventually planning to put them together. It really wouldn't matter to me much either way - I just love all these characters and their interactions. Barry/Joe is probably my favorite relationship on the show, but I love most of them.

I know there's a general consensus that the show has gone downhill, but I still love it: the fascinating (albeit sometimes absurd!) ideas about time travel, multiple universes, etc., nearly all the characters and actors, the look and feel of it, the fact that this is one of the only superhero shows that, despite getting dark at points, still usually remembers that comic book shows can and should be fun and lets itself be sweet, silly, joyful and energetic rather than the self-serious funereal broodfest we get from so many other superhero shows.

[Katsullivan]

Rather than the show having gone downhill, I think it's vastly improved this season. (High praise coming from me, considering some of the stuff I've posted here before). And a lot of that improvement had to do with the show finally treating their leading lady like a leading lady. 

Edited March 8, 2018 by Katsullivan