Relationships: Speed Dating

[Trini]

10 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Does the show think they have to break up at least once before getting them married?

I hope not. If they wanted to do that, this would be the season to do it, but then I don't think they'd bother with the proposal if they were really going to break them up. (What kind of sicko does that, anyway?)

20 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

And I still think that works better in terms of spacing everything out right, so I'm worried that this really early proposal means doom of some kind. If Iris does what I think she will and say that she wants to wait until they've defeated Savitar to get engaged, will that cause trouble with her and Barry?

It could but I think Barry would be willing to wait if she asked.

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

I hope not. If they wanted to do that, this would be the season to do it, but then I don't think they'd bother with the proposal if they were really going to break them up. (What kind of sicko does that, anyway?)

See: Arrow season 4.

Sadly, I don't see the engagement lasting, or a marriage happening this season, so I expect some sort of doom by the end of the season.

[GHScorpiosRule]

28 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

See: Arrow season 4.

Sadly, I don't see the engagement lasting, or a marriage happening this season, so I expect some sort of doom by the end of the season.

I don't see the two as comparable at all. Barry isn't lying or keeping a secret from Iris. Nor does he have a secret baby, whose mother has blackmailed him to keep that secret if he wants to see his child.

I don't expect to see them get married this season, either, but don't see why they wouldn't stay engaged. Assuming Iris says yes.

[Lady Calypso]

21 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

I don't see the two as comparable at all. Barry isn't lying or keeping a secret from Iris. Nor does he have a secret baby, whose mother has blackmailed him to keep that secret if he wants to see his child.

Neither do I in that sense. I was just responding to the point about why they would have Barry/Iris get engaged if they might just break them up by the end of the season. My point was just to show that they have introduced a proposal that ended in a break-up with Oliver/Felicity. Those two didn't need to be engaged for the Baby Mama Drama to break them up; the proposal was used for a dramatic plot point, nothing more, and this show could go the same way. The fact that they don't need an engagement for a dramatic break-up if that's what they plan to do. They can break-up while being boyfriend and girlfriend. At least with this show, the only clear obstacle is Iris' impending death so it makes sense why Barry might want to propose to her now. Oliver proposed to Felicity while knowing he was keeping a major secret, so it made no sense. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

Ohhhhh! I see your point, @Lady Calypso!

Oops!☺️

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

My point was just to show that they have introduced a proposal that ended in a break-up with Oliver/Felicity. Those two didn't need to be engaged for the Baby Mama Drama to break them up; the proposal was used for a dramatic plot point, nothing more, and this show could go the same way.

Honestly, I think Oliver/Felicity are only superficially comparable to Barry/Iris. The narrative and behind-the-scenes differences between the shows (and relationships) leads me to think that things will not go the same way.

[ruby24]

The one time I thought they did good with a passionate kissing scene was 3x04, when they were making out on the couch. Maybe Barry needs to be in a horizontal position before he can really get going, lol. But they haven't had another scene like that since. I do wonder if they ever plan to let them have an actual love scene or if it's just going to be innuendo in place of it.

[Trini]

52 minutes ago, doram said:

They always seem to hold back with these two which is a pity because the chemistry is there. It was palpable with the Irish/Flash scenes in season 1 (kinda a shame that they didn't drag that out longer since they chose to go with the Irish "doesn't know" route, it would have been interesting to see her navigating her attraction to Flash with Eddie and Barry all at once) that there can be a great deal of sexual tension between these two actors.

20 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

But they haven't had another scene like that since. I do wonder if they ever plan to let them have an actual love scene or if it's just going to be innuendo in place of it.

They refuse to be great. I don't know why. They seem stuck on keeping scenes "PG".

[Trini]

Quotes from Grant Gustin about the proposal:

Quote

ET caught up with series star Grant Gustin earlier this month on the show's Vancouver set, where the TV superhero shared his initial reaction to Barry's proposal to Iris after the chaos of Grodd's attack. "I thought it made sense and it makes sense that it comes when it does," he shared. "And then, obviously, it's Barry Allen so then he just went full out -- like candles and rose pedals everywhere in their home."

"It's really sweet because it's not too over-the-top and I like what Barry talks about," he continued. "He's giving a really detailed story about where the ring came from that had belonged to his mom and just the whole story behind it, which I thought was a really sweet thing to focus on for a proposal."

[zannej]

For some reason, when he talked about the history of the ring, I thought about a movie with Christopher Walken in it where a kid's father had a watch and talked about how he smuggled the watch in his ass to keep it during some event (I think the holocaust-- but I'm not sure). I know it was completely unrelated, but I just started thinking about that the moment Barry started on the story.

I don't need to see nonPG scenes on the show with any of the characters but I'm not entirely opposed to them.

It's going to be interesting with Jesse moving in with Wally. I did like that even though Harry is a curmudgeon, he still seems to like Wally. It will also be interesting to see what Joe says about Jesse being over there now.

[Trini]

I don't agree with all of this, but this article in praise of romance on The Flash highlights all the current couples:

Quote

... For all of its remarkable superhero action that feels ripped right from the pages of the comics, The Flash‘s true heart lies in the humanity of its characters. This is a calling card of all of the Arrowverse shows executive produced by Greg Berlanti, of course, but The Flash has lately managed to strike a remarkable balance between comic book-style theatrics and genuinely sweet and heartfelt human interaction. The Arrowverse shows are essentially soap operas, with the superheroes and their supporting cast dealing with intricate personal relationships in between battling super villains and saving the world. Romance, especially, is a tricky subject for superheroes, but The Flash is doing it right.

... The Flash is a true rarity in the way the series deftly and wonderfully handles its characters’ romantic relationships. It took three seasons to build up to this point, but it’s refreshing to now see so many characters in a superhero series pursuing healthy relationships and are allowed to be happy – for however long it lasts.

Eh, maybe a little too much rose tint on those glasses; although I do like that the show is featuring romance.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, doram said:

... and it's a pity that they didn't deal with this in season 2. Maybe the show runners felt that having Iris be honest about her feelings for a martyr would make the audience hate her? 

It's been ranted about earlier in this thread and others, but it's more like the writers didn't think it was important enough to focus on -- until Patty left, because the show can only write one woman at a time?? It is a shame; Iris mourning Eddie (and gradually acknowledging her feelings for Barry) should have been her story in Season 2. Or even her and Caitlin bonding over losing loved ones. So many basic ideas they could have done.

[Trini]

In non-WestAllen musings; I loved the "power couple" shot with Cisco and Gypsy in "Attack on Central City":

I don't want her to be a regular - because the team is overpowered as it is - but I hope she and Cisco can work out a long distance relationship.

[Trini]

UGH. Kreisberg! ::shakes fist::
So it was too soon for a proposal. :(   Should I be glad the engagement only lasted one episode? Instead of them pretending everything is okay for X episodes?

I knew they'd do something to manufacture angst, but it's just the whiplash from the last episode -- geez.

[ruby24]

They aren't broken up, are they? When Felicity gave the ring back it meant they were broken up. Also, that was again episode 15 of Arrow last season, so yeah- way to be creative, writers. Is there a rule that you can't stay together longer than 15 episodes? Because they JUST moved in together, that new set can't have been for just six episodes. Right?

[Trini]

They definitely aren't engaged now, but it's unclear whether they still consider themselves a couple. They still have the West house set, so it's possible one of them could move out. It would be super awkward if they were broken up but still living together.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Trini

[ruby24]

Because they seem to want to follow patterns that are WAY TOO SIMILAR to their sister shows, I have a bad feeling they'll be broken up now until the finale at least. 

And who knows, judging by what's happened over on Arrow, does that mean they don't get back together until next season, if that? Or two more seasons? Because that would suck.

[Karlophe]

I don't think they're broken up. They made a point of stressing from multiple points of view how much they love each other (not that people who love each other don't part ways, but bear with me..) - Joe to Iris, Iris and Barry to each other, even Savitar referring to Barry as "the man Iris loves". I don't believe there is a single person on Team Flash who doubts the way these two people feel about each other - but the family knew something wasn't right,  Iris' subconscious doubts confirmed it, and by the end even last holdout Barry admitted it. Fear of the future did drive him to move forward in a manner he otherwise might not have. I refuse to believe that Barry, consummate gentleman and so, so much Joe's own son would have, were he not in these circumstances, ever proposed without his blessing or done so "spontaneously". That's not Barry. That's not Iris, or Joe...that's not their story. That's the reason this was so hard on their family, because this is something all four of them wanted; something that should only be done once, and was not supposed to be done like this. Not with portents of doom hanging over their heads. The love is there, and is no less true than it ever was. Joe believes unwaveringly that Barry loves Iris more than anything, and told his daughter that the love between them is what's going to get them through sweeps this (my apologies, it was getting a little heavy in here) and Iris, though she took off the ring, made it clear to Barry that she does want to marry him, and be his wife. Just not like this. Not under these circumstances.

That the both of them have stressed over the last episodes that anything that comes their way they will face together makes me believe that they're not heading towards a breakup, not at all. Time, maybe. But their communication has been so strong all year, even that, I'm sure, would be talked about and mutually agreed upon. I really can't see them leaving each other, though time might be spent on the West Couch of Feelings. This episode was heartbreaking, but I think it will all be okay. 

:sends E-hugs for all:

[Trini]

So... with this first engagement cancelled, this means I can get my Christmas proposal, right? (Looking for a silver lining here...)

23 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

Because they seem to want to follow patterns that are WAY TOO SIMILAR to their sister shows, I have a bad feeling they'll be broken up now until the finale at least. 

And who knows, judging by what's happened over on Arrow, does that mean they don't get back together until next season, if that? Or two more seasons? Because that would suck.

Nah. I think Barry and Iris are making out a bit better than Arrow's main couple. The woman didn't immediately get riddled with bullets after saying 'yes', and reversing the engagement didn't take multiple episodes. In general, they seem to like hitting relationship milestones on a quicker schedule on The Flash. I definitely don't think it's going to take multiple seasons, because they can see how much it sucked on that show.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Trini

[RedVitC]

1 hour ago, Karlophe said:

I don't think they're broken up. They made a point of stressing from multiple points of view how much they love each other (not that people who love each other don't part ways, but bear with me..) - Joe to Iris, Iris and Barry to each other, even Savitar referring to Barry as "the man Iris loves". I don't believe there is a single person on Team Flash who doubts the way these two people feel about each other - but the family knew something wasn't right,  Iris' subconscious doubts confirmed it, and by the end even last holdout Barry admitted it. Fear of the future did drive him to move forward in a manner he otherwise might not have. I refuse to believe that Barry, consummate gentleman and so, so much Joe's own son would have, were he not in these circumstances, ever proposed without his blessing or done so "spontaneously". That's not Barry. That's not Iris, or Joe...that's not their story. That's the reason this was so hard on their family, because this is something all four of them wanted; something that should only be done once, and was not supposed to be done like this. Not with portents of doom hanging over their heads. The love is there, and is no less true than it ever was. Joe believes unwaveringly that Barry loves Iris more than anything, and told his daughter that the love between them is what's going to get them through sweeps this (my apologies, it was getting a little heavy in here) and Iris, though she took off the ring, made it clear to Barry that she does want to marry him, and be his wife. Just not like this. Not under these circumstances.

That the both of them have stressed over the last episodes that anything that comes their way they will face together makes me believe that they're not heading towards a breakup, not at all. Time, maybe. But their communication has been so strong all year, even that, I'm sure, would be talked about and mutually agreed upon. I really can't see them leaving each other, though time might be spent on the West Couch of Feelings. This episode was heartbreaking, but I think it will all be okay. 

:sends E-hugs for all:

I wish I could give this post 2 likes :) To add to this, Savitar's mission is to inflict maximum pain to Barry by trying to kill the love of his life. From a storytelling perspective, the most angst/punch to this is if Barry and Iris are as close as possible. It wouldn't really make sense to have them grow apart now (not that that says anything). 

[zannej]

I'll be honest, I've had enough relationship drama in real life from some of my friends. I got pulled in as mediator and it only solidified for me why I'm happy to be the "crazy cat lady". People can have their relationships and all that drama and I'll be chilling with my 11 cats while studying plumbing code and planning renovations. I just don't enjoy the turmoil and soap opera aspects. I don't expect any relationship to be perfect, but I'd like for it to be a little less dysfunctional.

So, I majorly facepalmed when they showed that Iris removed her ring. I get that she wanted the proposal to be "real" and to not be about fear. But, would it have really been so hard for her to keep the ring on to make him feel a little better? I'm not saying she should always do things that make her uncomfortable to make him feel better, but was wearing the ring that big of a deal? She knows in the future they are supposed to get married. Even if he was afraid, he still loves her and still wants to marry her eventually. They don't have to get married right away.

Also, what Trini said in the episode thread about the clothes Iris was wearing when murdered-- Does that mean if Barry will try to get rid of that outfit? What if he sees her in it and decides she has to change out of it. I jokingly responded that maybe he should try to find a way to keep her naked that day.

Then we have poor Jesse who was written so poorly in this episode. First they had Wally saying she couldn't focus on fighting crime becuse she was too busy looking at Iris's ring. Hooray for sexism. :/ Then she just stood there when Wally ran off instead of running after him and maybe calling them while she was following.

Moving on, we have Julian getting mad at Caitlin and feeling she was just using him. I think that Tom Felton is really trying to show that Julian liked Caitlin, but it is very one-sided and it really felt like Caitlin was not into it at all. I don't know if that is because of Caitlin feeling guilty or worrying about her track record, or if it is because Danielle didn't want the characters to hook up (and she apparently told Tom Felton that if their characters hook up that his will die). I kind of felt that her acting was somewhat weaker again in this episode. Not as bad as seasons 1 and 2, but still not great. I didn't really get a sense that she had genuine remorse. Although she did seem genuinely relieved when they said that Caitlin somehow keeping part of the stone is what kept Savitar from being loose already.

I just think that having so many relationship issues for multiple characters in one episode just sort of detracted from it a bit. I'm not saying they can't have more than one couple on the show, but it can be clunky when they try to deal with their issues in a single episode along with a villain arc.

[Princess Lucky]

11 hours ago, zannej said:

Moving on, we have Julian getting mad at Caitlin and feeling she was just using him. I think that Tom Felton is really trying to show that Julian liked Caitlin, but it is very one-sided and it really felt like Caitlin was not into it at all. I don't know if that is because of Caitlin feeling guilty or worrying about her track record, or if it is because Danielle didn't want the characters to hook up (and she apparently told Tom Felton that if their characters hook up that his will die). I kind of felt that her acting was somewhat weaker again in this episode. Not as bad as seasons 1 and 2, but still not great. I didn't really get a sense that she had genuine remorse. Although she did seem genuinely relieved when they said that Caitlin somehow keeping part of the stone is what kept Savitar from being loose already.

I think Caitlin genuinely likes Julian now, but she didn't at first. Not when she first asked him to join the team. When he called her out on that, she just said "that wasn't the only reason". In a half-assed way. I think she wanted to use him, initially. Not in a cruel way, more like "that guy is kinda weird but not that bad, and he can help me, so 'll sweet-talk him into joining Team Flash". But eventually, I think she started liking him. That convo after they returned from Planet of the Apes, when she said "fear me" and he totally charmed her with that steak bit? That was genuine, for me.

But I agree that Danielle is playing Caitlin as a little cold (ahem), whereas Tom Felton plays Julian as completely smitten. I think you called it; it's because Caitlin feels guilty. She likes Julian now (nothing crazy like love, I think she's a little infatuated), but she knows she's been stringing him along, and that's gotta be holding her back. How can she kiss him for real, when she has a secret like that? It's almost like she doesn't want to lead him on any more than she has to. Maybe she wants to spare his feelings?

Of course, now the secret's out, so they might move past it, at some point. I'm surprisingly fond of this pairing, actually. I blame Tom Felton.

[Whodunnit]

I'm sorry, but this show is making it really hard for me to believe that Iris loves Barry as much as he loves her. I  mean, seriously? So what if he had more than one reason to marry her, the dude has literally been in love with her since he was 11! She can't possibly doubt that... Ugh, I  hate it when the plot makes people dumb fo drama's sake.

[GHScorpiosRule]

My comments from Arrow's Mind Your Surrounding thread:

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

But does giving the ring back mean the relationship is also over? Could be she gave the ring back, and told him she'd accept it again when he proposed out of "love," and not fear, whatever the fuck that means. Makes it sound Barry doesn't love Iris at all, but doesn't want her to die, so he proposed because he's afraid she'll die and he won't be able to save her? Why can't his proposal come from a place of both fear and love? It's clear to me he's been in love with her forever, and that proposal didn't sound like it came from a place of fear to me. I don't understand why it has to be either OR. And yes, I realize a lot of folks here hated the proposal, and loathe Barry.

But I'm hopped up on drugs right now after having MAJOR surgery, so please just pelt me with nerf bullets!?

 

53 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

This is why I hate time travel on this show! If that jackass Wally hadn't insisted to Cisco to take him into the future-Maaaaaybe Barry and Iris would still be engaged. He spent more time staring at Iris's finger that no longer had the ring, and thus, he too, was too late to save Iris. And he just Assuuuumed that the reason why Barry proposed was because he wanted save her and change the future. The fact that it turned out to be true, is totally beside the point!?

And I get Iris telling Barry she wanted to be his wife, not just someone he had to save through eternity. And of course that was the magic word, and Barry and Iris had to return to STAR Labs to reveal that Savitar was in the Speed Force. So I'll we'll never know what Barry would have said in response. BUT. It was just a few episodes ago where Iris tearfully told Barry she was afraid to die and that he had to do something to stop it from happening.

And if that ASS Wally, hadn't stolen the last piece of the Philosopher's Stone, to battle with Savitar, after opening his pie hole that the team had it, maybe Wally wouldn't have gotten sucked in. This is the WORST iteration of my Favorite Flash EVER. I can't tolerate him and his whiny ass.

Off to watch tonight's show now.

[Whodunnit]

I think the reason that it feels like Barry and Iris have been having an on/of relationship is because of the non-sexual relationship between them before they became an official couple:

All of Iris's doubts in her relationship with Eddie centered on her supposedly non-existent feelings about Barry, her "brother". And then suddenly there were the feelings she got shortly after Barry broke up with Pattie and Iris went on that one weird date with her boss... (My memory of the Pattie era seems to be a little vague; I'm afraid that I found her to be a bit dull).

So anyway, for me at least that's why it feels like they are giving us whiplash with the engagement and then having Iris return the ring not even 24 hours later.

ETA: And then Barry breaking them up completely... I think that those people who crowed at how wonderfully stable their relationship is were only looking at it from the context of when they were an official couple; this is, in fact, the first major hiccup that they have had since their change in status.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Whodunnit

[zannej]

These writers... Seriously, WTF? So, Iris let Barry know that she still wanted to marry him and he said he needed space? And as good of an actor as Grant is, I wasn't buying it. I don't know if that means Barry really didn't want to break it off-- there was just something missing. Is it because he feels that he's not worthy? WTF? As soon as he said he loved her I was waiting for the other shoe to drop and for him to say "but" and then I was saying "fuckin' REALLY, writers?" WTF is with all stalling? They can stay together and be engaged and not get married right away. What do they hope to accomplish by hindering the relationship? Are they simply unable to write for them as a healthy couple? Is that the problem? Do they think happy couples are boring?

And this is why I don't like romance stories on shows-- when they pull this crap.

Edited March 16, 2017 by zannej

[GHScorpiosRule]

14 minutes ago, zannej said:

These writers... Seriously, WTF? So, Iris let Barry know that she still wanted to marry her and he said he needed space? 

Um, do you mean that she still wanted to marry him? Or is there a word missing? That she still wanted him to marry her?

The sentence as it reads, sounds as if Iris wants to still marry Iris!

[Bats27]

Quote

 

-They wasted no time getting rid of Jessie. Which is disappointing because I liked her and it makes her deciding to stay really pointless, TWO episodes later (face-palm). And she and Wally, were cute together. Just couldn't help yourselves could you showrunners (another face-palm).

-Also the reason why she couldn't come along was BS and ties into a really annoying and problematic cliché that these shows use way too often. 

-Barry breaks up with Iris (face-palm). They were actually kind of cute together writers, it was going fine now that they were actually a couple. BUT NO, you just couldn't let it go. You just HAD to throw more contrive "DRAAAMMAAA into it" didn't you (double face-palm).

[Trini]

17 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

Ugh, I  hate it when the plot makes people dumb fo drama's sake.

This is completely for plot. (Even though it's unnecessary) Because somehow Barry "there's no Flash without Iris" Allen now needs 'space' to deal with Savitar. It's dumb -- are they going to break up every time a new threat comes along?

--------

In non-WestAllen musings:
I knew that Jesse would leave at some point, but she just got here! Sad for Wally - even though that relationship wasn't that deep. Disappointed that they couldn't have Iris and Jesse talk to each other. ::SIGH::

Was glad we got a scene with Joe and Iris, though. They don't do that enough.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Trini
I shouldn't be typing at 3am

[ruby24]

You know, I'm actually wondering if they orchestrated this on purpose in terms of timing, because they knew that the musical episode was going to be about Barry and Kara's relationship problems.

Therefore, there was a direct order that they had to be split up at this moment in time, even if they had no reason for it.

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

This is completely for plot. (Even though it's unnecessary) Because somehow Barry "there's no Flash with Iris" Allen now needs 'space' to deal with Savitar. It's dumb -- are they going to break up every time a new threat comes along?

--------

 

I think you mean there's no FLASH WITHOUT Iris. Because the dumbass writers think he's another Oliver or Batman.???

Edited March 15, 2017 by GHScorpiosRule

[Bats27]

For goodness sake, either keep Jessie around, or don't. This "writing her in, and then writing her out at random" is getting irritating. Especially when it happens so quickly.   

TWO EPISODES ago, it was all "oh Wally, I love you.  And it totally want to come and live with you on Earth-1 and have lots of hot speedster lovin."  Which, rushed as it might have been, I was willing to go with because they ate cute together.  But, now it's all "yeah I'm out, later losers."

[Proteus]

It also doesn't make sense she feels needed on Earth 3 but not her own Earth.

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, doram said:

So, after watching the episode, it seems like Barry broke up with Iris out of spite / in retaliation for her taking off the engagement ring, and for taking too long to say "I love you too" back or reassuring him that he hadn't lost her.  Like, she told him she was afraid he only proposed to keep her safe and not because he loved her / wanted to marry her, and he pretty much went, "Oh, so that's the best way to hurt you? Got it."

Like, on the one hand, I understand Barry's angst about his parents dying and now Iris, the love of his life, being next. But it's Iris whose life is being threatened here and her life is being threatened because of him. He doesn't get to be angstier than her in this.

Seriously, this relationship just crossed over to dysfunctional to me. 

I couldn't disagree with this more. I saw no spite on Barry's part at all.

But clearly this relationship had turned into a Rorschach's test.

I've already stated how much I hate the writers hacks who came up with this dumbass reason for Iris, taking off the ring, and her not telling Barry if he'd lost her over the "reason" for his proposal; and two, for Barry agreeing with Iris's reason for taking off the ring and this show acting like Barry/Flash is like Oliver or Batman.

Which he is NOT.

[statsgirl]

21 hours ago, Whodunnit said:

All of Iris's doubts in her relationship with Eddie centered on her supposedly non-existent feelings about Barry, her "brother". And then suddenly there were the feelings she got shortly after Barry broke up with Pattie and Iris went on that one weird date with her boss... (My memory of the Pattie era seems to be a little vague; I'm afraid that I found her to be a bit dull).

I don't have much to say about the current state of Iris and Barry's relationship that hasn't been said, other than I've never found Kreisburg able to write an adult relationship unless it's the one to stall the OTP, but I do remember s1 and Iris never thought about Barry romantically until he told her he had feelings for her after she agreed to move in with Eddie.  It was Eddie for her in s1 so Eddie had to die.

[Mellowyellow]

Cheer up guys! Maybe they will give you all a WestAllen sex episode when they get back together because you know they WILL get back together! It's just a matter of time!

[zannej]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:36 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Um, do you mean that she still wanted to marry him? Or is there a word missing? That she still wanted him to marry her?

The sentence as it reads, sounds as if Iris wants to still marry Iris!

Oops. You're right. I corrected it now. "That she still wanted to marry him". Health issues have been making my brain sluggish lately.

The breakup was just dumb. I wonder if it will turn out that Barry was just feeling unworthy because of the stuff his subconscious told him in the speedforce (IMO, what the "speedforce" tells him is really just his own subconscious speaking to him- and right now he has a lot of doubts and feels unworthy). Another possibility is that his distancing her because he thinks it will somehow protect her-- that maybe she'll be safter away from him-- a very common tv trope. Maybe he thinks that if he split with her that Savitar will somehow think he doesn't need to kill her to get to Barry.

[phoenics]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:55 PM, Whodunnit said:

I think the reason that it feels like Barry and Iris have been having an on/of relationship is because of the non-sexual relationship between them before they became an official couple:

All of Iris's doubts in her relationship with Eddie centered on her supposedly non-existent feelings about Barry, her "brother". And then suddenly there were the feelings she got shortly after Barry broke up with Pattie and Iris went on that one weird date with her boss... (My memory of the Pattie era seems to be a little vague; I'm afraid that I found her to be a bit dull).

So anyway, for me at least that's why it feels like they are giving us whiplash with the engagement and then having Iris return the ring not even 24 hours later.

ETA: And then Barry breaking them up completely... I think that those people who crowed at how wonderfully stable their relationship is were only looking at it from the context of when they were an official couple; this is, in fact, the first major hiccup that they have had since their change in status.

Iris' feelings didn't suddenly happen - she's had them since S1, Episode 15, but then that got wiped out.

And honestly this season, their relationship was stable.  They've always been close - but this season they were also close - even before Barry saw her death in the future.

[phoenics]

16 hours ago, zannej said:

Oops. You're right. I corrected it now. "That she still wanted to marry him". Health issues have been making my brain sluggish lately.

The breakup was just dumb. I wonder if it will turn out that Barry was just feeling unworthy because of the stuff his subconscious told him in the speedforce (IMO, what the "speedforce" tells him is really just his own subconscious speaking to him- and right now he has a lot of doubts and feels unworthy). Another possibility is that his distancing her because he thinks it will somehow protect her-- that maybe she'll be safter away from him-- a very common tv trope. Maybe he thinks that if he split with her that Savitar will somehow think he doesn't need to kill her to get to Barry.

It's still dumb though.  He claims he wants to spend every waking moment with her, but he does this?  She might only have 2 months left to live and you're moving out?  Is he trying to insulate himself in case he cannot save her?  

I actually feel like we've gotten ore of Iris' pov than Barry's in this case, because I still cannot make sense of what he's done.  With Iris, I know we're supposed to believe she was upset and confused (and probably afraid - both of death and of being just someone to save and not who Barry loved and wanted to marry).  Getting proposed to is a huge deal and finding out it wasn't fully genuine can be super hard.  But now I guess we know why they didn't show her saying yes.  But even with understanding her being upset - having her not respond when he asked her if he'd lost her and the cheek air kiss and the rest - that was just piss poor writing and stupid plot drama.

I keep wondering if the revelation to Barry in the speed force was that only he could save Iris - which he feels he cannot do while being with her because it's too hard to concentrate on Savitar and getting faster because he's so afraid of losing her?

Grow up Barry.  Now you get "space", but Iris gets to live alone in fear that Savitar could come for her at any moment.

[Trini]

From a (non-spoiler-y) comment in the spoiler thread:

On 3/15/2017 at 4:25 AM, ruby24 said:

You know, I'm actually wondering if they orchestrated this WA split on purpose in terms of timing, because they knew that the musical episode was going to be about Barry and Kara's relationship problems.

Therefore, there was a direct order that they had to be break up at this particular moment (before episode 17), even if they had no reason for it.

From Paleyfest:

Ugh. Just go away, Kreisberg!
At least we got producer confirmation that this 'break-up' made no sense except for plot.

[BkWurm1]

Quote

I keep wondering if the revelation to Barry in the speed force was that only he could save Iris - which he feels he cannot do while being with her because it's too hard to concentrate on Savitar and getting faster because he's so afraid of losing her?

They are probably playing the bodyguard trope that if that guy falls for or gets involved with the one he's supposed to be protecting/saving that it will pull his focus or distract him from doing his job.  Also in Barry's case, I think we were supposed to think he was trying for distance so that he could think more dispassionately about what he needs to do.  The solution to saving Iris might be something he can't see because of his feelings for her.    

[Katsullivan]

20 hours ago, doram said:

Taken from the 3.15 episode thread:

The show does a lousy job of showing Iris's POV - indeed, I wonder if this is really a Relationship topic as much as an Iris West Character topic... But I think it's clear that the "Mrs Iris West-Allen" byline-from-the-future realization acted more as a hindrance to Westallen than a propulsion. Firstly, it freaks Barry out. His knee-jerk reaction to it isn't joy or elation, it's low-key panic. And how does Iris find out? She finds out from her live-in-boyfriend, who was going to propose to her, until he was kidnapped by a mad-man/murderer from the future who uses it to hurt Eddie and break his spirit.

The last thing Iris was going to do in that situation was say "Oh wow... since the Man in the Yellow that murdered Barry's mom says that I'm going to marry Barry, I'd better break up with Eddie." 

If anything, it pushes her to do the opposite. Even as she's telling her father that if she had known that Barry had feelings for her, she'd never have dated Eddie. Even as she's berating Barry from deceiving her about his Flash-identity, she brings up him hiding his love for her in a way that finally shows how much that revelation upset her. In Iris's mind, they are on equal level and why? Because they are both huge, life-changing events. Her life now would be completely different if she had known how Barry had felt from her before she had a chance to date Eddie.  Even as she's finally admitting to Barry that she has feelings for him - only she can't act or consider those feelings until Eddie is found. Then Eddie is found and he's breaking up with her because he is clearly heartbroken. He tells her that she's never been his emotionally 100% because of Barry. 

 

So the point is... the Future Byline prevents Iris from acting on any feelings she has for Barry/ any decisions that she might have otherwise come to about her relationship with Eddie. Firstly, she has to disprove to Eddie every insidious thing that Eobard used to destroy him. But most importantly, she has to rebel against the Destiny/Fate/Future that is threatening to take her own free will from her. It's one thing for Iris to choose Barry because she realises she has deeper feelings for him than for Eddie. It's another thing to have Destiny force a ring down her finger and tell her that she doesn't have any choice but to be with Barry.  

As she and Eddie said when they get back together, "Screw the Future."

 

And, of course, Eddie dies which know becomes another kind of road-block for any future Iris could have with Barry. She has to get over her heartbreak, and she has to get over the guilt of proving Eddie right after all with the "there's always been three people in this relationship" accusation, and she has to get over the atavistic rebellion of being connected to Barry because #DestinySaidSo. 

 

And now that I think about it, in a sense, Iris choosing to go into the Speed Force to bring back Barry was her way of finally accepting that #DestinySaidSo aspect of their connection, accepting that it's a part of their relationship and she still has free will where Barry is concerned. It's also telling that Barry also says the same thing to her at Nora's grave, "I don't know what this is between us or where we go from here..." He's bringing up the #DestinySaidSo connection to declare that they have free will. "Yes, we have a connection but I'm not going to use that connection to force a romantic relationship with you. But we're not going to deny that connection anymore either.  It's there. It exists. Now we decide to what extent we let it influence our lives." (And, I guess, it also makes sense why they don't kiss in that scene, much as I would have loved to see a kiss.)

 

Wow, apparently I have given this a looot of thought.

TL DR... The show does a lousy job of: a, giving Iris a voice/PoV and b, clearly resolving the themes that they themselves introduce. 

Just quoting everything because I agree with it all.

The show subtly makes it clear that Iris has always been in love with Barry, she just never realised it. It's shown when she tells Eddie that he's her first serious boyfriend because her life was full with her Dad and Barry. It's shown the first time Barry sees Iris and Eddie together and Iris acts like a cheating wife. It's shown with the tidbit that she was petty about his girlfriends, despite her claims of being supportive and wanting him to get a girlfriend of his own. She breaks dates to follow him to science conventions. She expects him to be enthusiastic about her blog because it's important to her. They "break up" over their fight about her blog and she cries about it, then ices him afterwards and Eddie even picks up on that. Eddie even admits that he was threatened by their relationship at first. Which he should be, because if Barry wasn't in a coma, Iris would never have dated him. Even their quarrel when she finds out that he's the Flash and all the "you were supposed to be my best friend!" / "I AM your best friend!" No, people. There's too much passion and tension for a platonic relationship. 

I never saw it that way but now that you've broken it down, I 100% agree that the future byline really was another hurdle for the relationship, and not the other way around and by the The Runaway Dinosaur episode, Iris and Barry have come to terms with it, their apparent cosmic connection. They are not letting it influence their decisions by deliberately rebelling against it just for the sake of proving it wrong. 

[Trini]

11 hours ago, doram said:

It's a mildly dysfunctional dynamic - Barry having so much control over her love life and Iris being unaware/ unbothered about it - and it's a shame the show didn't delve into it deeper. 

Because they haven't explored it, I hesitate to call it dysfunctional; but I can see how Barry (and maybe Iris herself) could have unconsciously sabotaged her previous relationships because of his feelings for her (and hers for him?).

----------------

Unrelated:
Well, now there are two proposals to choose from! (Didn't need to be that way, but anyway...) I know some had issues with the first one, so now there's one with a song.  :)

I don't know if they'd actually try another musical, but a song for the wedding would be nice.

[Cleanqueen]

I really liked the second proposal, the singing made it special. But I do hope that Iris somehow let's him know that she was hurt by him breaking up. But I am sure they won't because nobody is allowed to stay mad at Barry.

[Trini]

I agree they need to have Iris talk more/do more since she is half of WestAllen which is one of the key relationships on the show. But ...

Quote

... But I am sure they won't because nobody is allowed to stay mad at Barry.

Is forgiveness not an option?

[Katsullivan]

On 3/23/2017 at 9:26 PM, doram said:

Well, I said mildly. :P I think the show missed a lot of opportunities to explore Westallen, and Iris' POV in general, in season 2 and even season 1B. 

e.g. On rewatch, there seems to be this refrain of Barry being hurt/angry/upset at Iris not knowing him. It comes up in the Pilot when he's trying to ask her out and she derails the whole conversation and concludes with "Aren't you glad I know you so well". Then when he gets his own version of Red Kryptonite and he's attacking Eddie, he tells her that "she's never known him". Then again at Christmas, before he tells her how he feels, they're having a conversation about investigating Nora's death and Barry tells her "Guess there are some things about me you don't know" with this... weird grin on his face and Iris in turn has this "wtf?" look on hers. 

I definitely think they were building to somewhere with that. Some sort of confrontation between the two. But... ::sighs:: I sincerely doubt that we're ever going to find out what they intended with that.

Yes, I remember picking up on this in the first season but it fizzled out. I can't say I'm too disappointed. It read too much like Barry being a "Nice Guy" to Iris, and I wasn't there for that. But considering the nothing we eventually got, I wish we had that instead.

Missed opportunities with Westallen are more the norm than the exception. As earlier discussed, the future byline was a stumbling block to their relationship that they could have milked across the entire season, really. Have Barry/Iris dancing around each other because Iris doesn't want destiny to control her choices and Barry is resenting her for it, because she is effectively letting destiny control her actions by rebelling against destiny. 

 

On 3/24/2017 at 3:18 PM, Trini said:

Is forgiveness not an option?

Forgiveness should follow an apology, should it not? Barry never apologises to Iris. Or his apology is his proposal which, imo, seems offensive. As if Iris should be so grateful to be getting an offer of marriage, that she should forgive the fact that the dumped her when she had barely months to live, and left her stuck in the apartment that he insisted they moved into, because she dared to have misgivings about the dubious motives for him proposing to her. Barry's decision for "space" came across like Barry punishing Iris.

The more I think about it, the more it strikes me that the show gives Barry too much power in that relationship. He wants to them to move in, so they do. He wants them to have sex, so they do. He wants them to get married, so Iris accepts his proposal. Iris changes her mind about his proposal - and he dumps her. The Music Maester "fixes" Barry, so he proposes to her again and she accepts it without question.

The season 3 dynamic is not even an inversion of season 1 where Barry was pining and Iris was oblivious. 

[ruby24]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

The more I think about it, the more it strikes me that the show gives Barry too much power in that relationship. He wants to them to move in, so they do. He wants them to have sex, so they do. He wants them to get married, so Iris accepts his proposal. Iris changes her mind about his proposal - and he dumps her. The Music Maester "fixes" Barry, so he proposes to her again and she accepts it without question.

The season 3 dynamic is not even an inversion of season 1 where Barry was pining and Iris was oblivious. 

This is an interesting point and I can see what you're saying here. I've noticed that as well this season, but I honestly wonder if the people writing it see it that way. I actually think that would be an interesting and natural thing for the show to have Iris bring up, mentioning all the events you stated, but the problem is that I don't think the people behind the show see that for how it can come across.

[Trini]

I think it's also larger, more overall issue with the show that they center almost everything around Barry. He is the lead, and central character, so it's understandable, but they could do better. Nearly every other supporting character services him in some way.

--------

Re: "Abra Kadabra": I loved the serenade proposal, but I thought they would treat the musical as a one-off/'what if' episode; with not much actually affecting the rest of the show. But they actually had Iris mention Barry's singing in the next episode -- so it's canon that he sang for her?! I was really surprised by that.

I also had a story in my head that Gypsy would be taking it slow with Cisco because she's been hurt before, and that came true is this ep!

Edited March 31, 2017 by Trini

[Katsullivan]

On 3/28/2017 at 0:12 AM, ruby24 said:

This is an interesting point and I can see what you're saying here. I've noticed that as well this season, but I honestly wonder if the people writing it see it that way. I actually think that would be an interesting and natural thing for the show to have Iris bring up, mentioning all the events you stated, but the problem is that I don't think the people behind the show see that for how it can come across.

You know, I would have said that if I didn't get a strong impression that there is a degree of spite behind the way Iris is written. Making Barry dump her before "Duet" because he needed space, and anyway he never really wanted to marry her? That was nonsensical, cruel and it's never properly resolved. The writers obviously needed to put Westallen on a break to give the musical a theme, but it wasn't necessary to do it this way.

There might be some absent-minded carelessness behind the way Iris/ Westallen is written. But there's also a great deal of deliberate malice. 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Katsullivan

[tennisgurl]

I thought this was kind of funny. I work with college students in Greek Life, and today, instead of discussing what they were up to over the weekend, the women were having a pretty epic debate about Iris/Barry, and if it was creepy that they grew up with Joe as a father/father figure, among other things. One girl thought that them dating was creepy, because Joe has referred to both of them as his kids, and they grew up in the same house. Another girl said Barry never saw her as a sister, and they aren't actually related, so its not weird, and they're the cutest couple EVER. A few other girls took sides, until one said she didn't care if it was creepy, she just wanted them to stop breaking up and getting back together, and they all agreed on that. I was basically the referee.