Relationships: Speed Dating

[Trini]

Hee! Thanks for sharing. The break-up was just completely out of character for Barry.

One way to look at the family dynamic with Barry and the Wests: Barry essentially has the son-in-law position, but he managed to get it (way) before marrying Iris. (And maybe not everyone is that close with their in-laws, but some are.)

[Katsullivan]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I thought this was kind of funny. I work with college students in Greek Life, and today, instead of discussing what they were up to over the weekend, the women were having a pretty epic debate about Iris/Barry, and if it was creepy that they grew up with Joe as a father/father figure, among other things. One girl thought that them dating was creepy, because Joe has referred to both of them as his kids, and they grew up in the same house. Another girl said Barry never saw her as a sister, and they aren't actually related, so its not weird, and they're the cutest couple EVER. A few other girls took sides, until one said she didn't care if it was creepy, she just wanted them to stop breaking up and getting back together, and they all agreed on that. I was basically the referee.

??Next time, ask this group of 'fans' if they're looking forward to GoT in July and whom they ship John Snow harder with - someone who (fans have speculated since book 1) is his biological aunt or one of two who are either his half or foster sisters. 

Edited April 4, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Trini]

On 4/9/2017 at 6:09 PM, legaleagle53 said:

You have a point, and I can also hear viewers screaming if [Gypsy] did give up bounty hunting and moved permanently to Earth-1 to be with Cisco that it's just the same old misogynist trope of making the woman be the one to give up her career and her life for a man.  But realistically, how else would they make the relationship work, since inter-dimensional traveling is illegal on Earth-19, and Cisco would therefore (as Gypsy correctly pointed out) be taking his life into his own hands if he traveled to Earth-19 to be with her?

Well, Cisco can easily travel between dimensions now, so my first choice would be for them to equally spend time on each others' Earth; or even for Cisco to move to Earth-19 but he still spends half his time on Earth-1 anyway. But yeah, inter-dimensional travel being illegal(and a death sentence) nixes that.

They'd have to be very discreet, or maybe Cisco officially joins Gypsy's Inter-Dimensional Police Squad* on Earth-19.

The next best thing is both of them splitting their time between their own Earths, and spending time together on a third Earth. I vote for Earth-2. That way we the Earth-2 characters (Harry, Jesse, E-2 WestAllen) can be recurring, and there wouldn't necessarily need to be a crisis for us to see them.

 

*(Yeah, I just made that up....)

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

{Without taking the time to read through all the responses between now and the last time I really paid close attention to this thread........}

-  I would rail and complain about the writers' treatment of WA, but I realize the folly and that actually the blame is on me.  I knew crap like we've seen would happen, but it doesn't make it easier to watch.  And by 'crap', I mean the angst-filled overdramatics involving yo-yo effect of "let's get married" "ok" "you want to marry me to save my life" "yeah, you ditched the ring so let's give each other space" "[like an hour later, sings then...] ok, I wanna get married again" "yes!".   One would think that not even the CW could pull shit like that, but like a sucker, I keep sticking around to watch them pull the impossible out of their depths-unlimited asses.

-  Gotta like the way Caitlin bounces back and gets right back on the horse.  New season = new LI.

-  Cisco, buddy, just some advice if I may... "hit it and quit it".  Those multiverse romances, man, you're doomed for misery - at least when there's a double-digit difference between your Earth and hers.

-  re: Wally & Jessie.  Kinda hard to maintain a working and healthy relationship when you're girl is the multiverse's not-the-real!Flash's substitute for each Earth.

[Trini]

I know they've been building it up in the previous two seasons, But has there been another TV couple that went from first date to engaged within the span of a season?

I'm almost sure I've seen this before, but I'm blanking right now. There's probably stuff involving minor characters; or situations where the relationship started AND ended quickly.

[ruby24]

I'm not sure- I expected an engagement in the season finale at the earliest, so they've done everything much faster than I predicted. Maybe now they really do want to get them to that iconic "married couple" status from the comics, so they figured why waste time. It does feel like it was a very quick procession though. As they had Iris state in that one episode, they moved in together after dating for like a month (?), and when they hadn't even had sex yet, then Barry proposes about six weeks later. 

That's insanely fast. I guess it's not too bad if you look at it from the perspective of them having known each other their whole lives and everything, and Barry thinking there's no need to waste any time, since he already knows he wants to spend the rest of his life with her...but I kinda wish they'd acknowledged the sheer speed of all this. Like, maybe had one scene where they say it out loud that things are moving really fast, but acknowledging that it IS because they just already know and feel that this is forever and there's no need to wait an arbitrary amount of time before moving things to the next step.

I think just seeing them talk about that even once would have made it fine with me. But without saying any of that out loud it leaves me wondering if I'm supposed to even notice how crazy fast this all happened.

Or maybe if the writers are planning to leave them engaged for an entire season (I'm guessing no wedding until near the end of next season?), then that negates how fast it progressed up to this point anyway. That could be it. If they knew they'd get engaged midway through this season but they wouldn't be married before the end of next, then by the time the wedding actually happens, it won't feel fast at all. That's over a year away.

Edited April 23, 2017 by ruby24

[Trini]

8 hours ago, ruby24 said:

Or maybe if the writers are planning to leave them engaged for an entire season (I'm guessing no wedding until near the end of next season?), then that negates how fast it progressed up to this point anyway. That could be it. If they knew they'd get engaged midway through this season but they wouldn't be married before the end of next, then by the time the wedding actually happens, it won't feel fast at all. That's over a year away.

Yeah, they got engaged so fast it's thrown off my calculations for the actual wedding. I can see them staying engaged for a while, but on the other hand, a Season 4 wedding is totally possible too.

[RedVitC]

Hi all! I've taken a bit of a hiatus from the board, but now that the show is back tomorrow, so am I :) I haven't really followed the discussion here, just wanted to say how much I love WestAllen and their dynamic, and I think this is the board to do that. WestAllen is definitely my favorite relationship in the flarrowverse and even on TV right now. I try to stay away from using words like 'the best' because it really is a matter of taste and their are quite a few lovely couples in the flarrowverse, but I'd say that to me they are the most purely romantic couple in the Flarrowverse. The looks, the connection between them, the depth of their love, their quotes.  They have so many wedding vow worthy speeches between them already. I like different couples on the different shows, but WestAllen is the only couple that makes me really ?. 

I love how this season they've really started to show those teasing moments between the two again. It really showcases their best friends to lovers dynamic. They had that in s1 a lot, but less in s2. And I love how romantic a couple they are. I didn't think it could be possible for a tv couple, but they're even more romantic together. Sometimes when couples get together on TV they start losing some of that. I guess it's because you like seeing the couple get together. But with Barry and Iris that isn't the case at all, probably because of their dynamic. They've always sort of been together, they've always been one of the most important people to each other, so them getting together is the continuation of that dynamic, rather than just a fulfillment of a will they? thing.

Yes, there was that break up in one episode, but they've been together since episode 2 of this season and that was pretty much the only real drama they've had (I'm talking about internal drama to the relationship, the Savitar drama is external to them). So they've pretty much been stably together for 16 episodes (I took off one for the break up ;), which is pretty great for a main couple on the CW.

And that was my WestAllen gushing for the day!

[Katsullivan]

On 4/23/2017 at 2:42 AM, Trini said:

But has there been another TV couple that went from first date to engaged within the span of a season?

I was about to point at Naley but realized that someone had already beat me to it.

There's nothing "insane" about the "speed" of the Iris/Barry relationship when you remember that they've known each other for over 15 years, and were (supposed to be, the show does a bad job of showing this but they always say it) best friends all this while, and were already as close as any two people could be before they got into a relationship. They share family and friends. When you put this against the backdrop of Iris's looming death, then it becomes even more inevitable.

And now I realize that you can add to the list of missed opportunities with Westallen - having them deal with the "go big or go home" aspect of their relationship. They aren't just casual acquaintances meeting each other for the first time, and "giving this a shot". If their relationship fails, it would cause a ripple effect on their lives because they share so much - family, friends, work. We see a glimpse of this for about 5 seconds in the musical. They're not going to cross that line from friends to lovers if they're not completely sure that this is "it".

But of course, why should the show deal with that if it means giving Iris a voice, a pov, and something other than just being a plot device for Barry?

Anyway, I'm still not convinced that the showrunners don't intend to kill off Iris, if not this season then the next season, and make Snowbarry endgame.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Anyway, I'm still not convinced that the showrunners don't intend to kill off Iris, if not this season then the next season, and make Snowbarry endgame.

What have the producers/writers/actors/show said about 'SnowBarry' that makes you think that? Because even though they suck at writing them sometimes, everyone and everything in the show points to Barry & Iris being it.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

What have the producers/writers/actors/show said about 'SnowBarry' that makes you think that? Because even though they suck at writing them sometimes, everyone and everything in the show points to Barry & Iris being it.

That "Everyone and everything in the show points to Barry & Iris being it" is all the more tragic reason for Iris to be killed off. She'll be Barry's Gwen Stacy.

The fact that they were talking about it before an episode of the show had even heard, before the show's own OTP had even been established? That DP herself regularly gives shout-outs to Snowbarry while promoting the show, even while her character was supposed to be having her own epic romance with Firestorm? That the showrunners has hired writers who publicly endorse Snowbarry and hate Iris West? 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Mellowyellow]

I'm not a Flash shipper but I don't understand the Snowbarry thing at all.  To me that's like having Diggle date Felicity. I really like Caitlin but I don't see how she's tied romantically to Barry in any way. 

I've always been envious of you guys because you have one very clearcut end game romance on Flash and that's WestAllen even if I don't ship it.  I've watched every episode of the show though and it's pretty obvious to me that they are endgame. 

[Trini]

19 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

The fact that they were talking about it before an episode of the show had even heard, before the show's own OTP had even been established?

"They" who? In any case, Iris was established as someone of significance to Barry on Arrow before the Pilot, so that's canon.

21 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

That DP herself regularly gives shout-outs to Snowbarry while promoting the show, even while her character was supposed to be having her own epic romance with Firestorm?

Eh, I'd expect an actor to support something that involves their character; and Danielle doesn't have power over scripts, so that doesn't faze me. (Especially since it's clear to me that is not the direction the show is going in.)

Quote

That the showrunners has hired writers who publicly endorse Snowbarry and hate Iris West? 

Even if that were true, there have been many more statements from the producers, etc. that support Barry & Iris as a couple than anything that supports SnowBarry. (A sampler.)

[Katsullivan]

They - producers/writers/actors, what you said basically. The people who make this show & promote it were talking about a crack ship before an episode of it aired.

And actors don't arbitrarily support *anything* that involves their character. Promoting is part of their job description and they are very careful not to promote things against the wishes of their show-runners. Shipping can be such a hot-button topic that showrunners are usually very careful how they navigate it. If DP is promoting Snowbarry before a single episode of the show has aired - before the viewers have been given an opportunity to be invested in the supposed "Epic" Westallen romance that the showrunners are trying to sell - then she's definitely not doing it against the wishes of her bosses.

As for the link - well, that's nice but it's not the first time that showrunners have said one thing and turned around and done something completely different where POCs are concerned. From Abbie Mills to Lacey Porter, I've seen shows that run out of the gate heavily promoting their black female leads only to watch as these leads increasingly diminish in importance and story on their shows, to make room for the white characters. 

I'm not interested in what I'm told. I'm interested in what I'm shown.

I'm shown that Iris West is the only main cast member in the entire Flarrowverse that has never crossed over to another show. I'm shown a set was made for Caitlin Snow's apartment so that she could flash Barry her boobs; and Patty Spivot, a 10-episode character, got a set for her home but it's been 3 seasons and Iris never got a place of her own until Barry decided to give her one. (Apparently the big arc of her moving in with Eddie was more about Barry than herself.)

I can barely watch 2A because of how embarrassingly insignificant her character was, sidelined in even stories that she was supposed to drive, reduced in one episode to a contractual one-sentence line. Even in this season with its emphasis on her and Westallen, she is nothing more than a plot device and I've spoken at length at how humiliating it was to watch her being dumped by Barry, and accept him back in all gratitude.

TL DR... I don't take stock in what the showrunners say about Westallen and Iris. I take stock in what they actually do. 

Edited April 26, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Trini]

I understand your legitimate concern for Iris, but I think you're ignoring all the positive things for WestAllen. Either way, I don't think what you've mentioned points to SnowBarry taking over.

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

TL DR... I don't take stock in what the showrunners say about Westallen and Iris. I take stock in what they actually do. 

For me, the set they built specifically for WestAllen scenes (including two proposals) that has been shown multiple times in multiple episodes weighs more than one scene of Caitlin's apartment (in which Barry rejected those boobs).

[Mellowyellow]

6 minutes ago, Trini said:

I understand your legitimate concern for Iris, but I think you're ignoring all the positive things for WestAllen. Either way, I don't think what you've mentioned points to SnowBarry taking over.

For me, the set they built specifically for WestAllen scenes (including two proposals) that has been shown multiple times in multiple episodes weighs more than one scene of Caitlin's apartment (in which Barry rejected those boobs).

He SANG to her!!!!!! Like serenaded her with a song and it was a lovely song to boot! I'm not sure how they CAN'T be endgame! Unless your show runners are super weird like ours! 

That said I don't follow any media for Flash if I wouldn't see any quotes that are cause for concern.

[johntfs]

I've never really seen anything in the show supporting the idea of Caitlin being with Barry.  I figured the endgame with Caitlin would be her and Cisco, even though I've never really seen anything in the show that supports that very much either.

[Katsullivan]

11 hours ago, doram said:

After last night's episode, I'm with @Katsullivan in this. The showrunners want to get credit for Westallen, by portraying in the most borderline offensive way possible.

How does Barry run to the future where he sees that she died, sees himself devastated that he lost her, specifically hears his future self tell him to "hold her, spend everytime you can with her because soon you'll never see her again", then he comes back and gives her an absent-minded shoulder pat like if she was a (not particularly beloved) pet? 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. 

This is a screencap of a tweet conversation with Carina MacKenzie, the writer of last night's episode and here she clearly implies that it was not her choice to have Barry return to the Present, and ignore his fiancee for her father. It's more than Barry giving Iris a hug, or even a passionate kiss. It's the story narratively setting Barry up to "make as many memories with Iris as he can before he loses her forever", and then his big reunion when he returns to the Present is with Joe. 

The showrunners have an anti-Westallen/anti-Iris vendetta.  It doesn't matter what they do lipservice to.

Edited April 26, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Grace19]

22 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

m shown that Iris West is the only main cast member in the entire Flarrowverse that has never crossed over to another show. I'm shown a set was made for Caitlin Snow's apartment so that she could flash Barry her boobs; and Patty Spivot, a 10-episode character, got a set for her home but it's been 3 seasons and Iris never got a place of her own until Barry decided to give her one. (Apparently the big arc of her moving in with Eddie was more about Barry than herself.)

I get where you are coming from, its embarrassing the way this show has treated iris and Candice, but I believe that they are fully committed to westallen and won't drop it. I just hope that next season they can give Candice more to work with, she is a good actress and very charming.

51 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about. 

This is a screencap of a tweet conversation with Carina MacKenzie, the writer of last night's episode and here she clearly implies that it was not her choice to have Barry return to the Present, and ignore his fiancee for her father. It's more than Barry giving Iris a hug, or even a passionate kiss. It's the story narratively setting Barry up to "make as many memories with Iris as he can before he loses her forever", and then his big reunion when he returns to the Present is with Joe. 

The showrunners have an anti-Westallen/anti-Iris vendetta.  It doesn't matter what they do lipservice to.

I was like Wtf with that, it made no sense for Barry's priority to be Joe after seeing that bleak future.

[Trini]

[notagain]

I think this epsiode was about the promise more than  Barry making more memories with Iris. The episode started with Iris asking Barry to look after her family, and when Barry gets to the future, he hasn't kept his promise. Sure Future!Barry told him to make more memories with Iris, but that would require Barry to also accept Iris' death and the show has shown consistently Barry is in denial, in the same conversation with Iris, Barry tried shutting down talk of her death and that has happened in pervious episodes and conversations Iris has tried to have with Barry.

Edited April 27, 2017 by notagain

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

 

58 minutes ago, notagain said:

I think this epsiode was about the promise more than  Barry making more memories with Iris. The episode started with Iris asking Barry to look after her family, and when Barry gets to the future, he hasn't kept his promise. Sure Future!Barry told him to make more memories with Iris, but that would require Barry to also accept Iris' death and the show has shown consistently Barry is in denial, in the same conversation with Iris, Barry tried shutting down talk of her death and that has happened in pervious episodes and conversations Iris has tried to have with Barry.

 

How has Barry kept his promise to Iris by hugging/ embracing Joe and ignoring her?

He made a promise to look after Joe after she dies. He literally cannot keep that promise while she is still alive. Nor can he guarantee that he will keep this promise until he's actually lived through her death. 

 

Barry promising Joe to be there for him does not keep Barry's promise to Iris. It just means that if Iris dies and he can't be there for Joe because of his own (Barry's own) emotional devastation, he's going to end up breaking 2 promises.

As long as Iris is alive and has a literal deathwatch on her head, she has to be Barry's priority. 

There is absolutely no stretch of narrative background or emotional integrity or anything resembling logic where Barry returns from a future where Iris is dead --- and feels that reassuring Joe* --- is so important that he basically ignores her. 

The idea that the showrunners changed the original screenplay by MacKenzie where Barry & Iris apparently embraced appropriately, to something that deprioritized her is precisely the reason why Iris West has become a plot device in a story that should be about her. 

 

*Because of course, what every father wants to hear at this point in time is : "Don't worry, Joe. If Iris dies, you'll still have me." 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Katsullivan

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

For the most part, I've enjoyed the hell out of the WA this season - aside from that crap that was thrown at us while watching them break each other's hearts in both 3.15 & .16 - but I couldn't help but mentally scoff at Iris begging Barry to look after Joe (especially) & Wally if she dies.  What?  Its ok if Barry falls apart and into depression as long as everyone else gets to keep keeping on?? 

All was needed there was a tacked on "... and I'll have a talk with Dad to do the same for you.", but nada.  I'm no writer, but seems fairly simple to have a character not forget someone's own personal pain while demanding they pick others up while they themselves experience the same loss or challenging despair that will soon be (possibly) thrown into their life.

Edited April 27, 2017 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[Mellowyellow]

I thought the pat and running to Joe was weird but when I got to the bit at the end (the gif that Trini posted) I just assumed that they wanted to show Barry honouring Iris’s wishes and that last part where they walked off together was to show that they were going off to cuddle and make memories. 

I understand why some quibble about the shoulder pat but this is CW!!!! You've got to make allowances for their poor execution! 

[Trini]

Actually, you know what, since some are determined to see 'snowbarry' happen, there's now a demented version of Caitlin and a demented version of Barry in the show, so those two can hook up; while Barry and Iris plan their wedding. ?

[phoenics]

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

Actually, you know what, since some are determined to see 'snowbarry' happen, there's now a demented version of Caitlin and a demented version of Barry in the show, so those two can hook up; while Barry and Iris plan their wedding. ?

Yeah i figured this is where they were going.  :/

[ruby24]

So...I realized I'm back to my irritation that they don't have Barry and Iris kiss nearly enough on this show. I'm sorry, but they don't! They didn't even kiss after his second proposal and then three episodes in a row with nothing.

I know this isn't that big a deal, but I think I wouldn't care as much if they had ever shown them being passionate, like, at all in the beginning of their relationship. The only passion they've ever shown was that brief makeout scene in episode 4 and that's it. I was disappointed then, we never got anything after that, and now it's declined to nothing. Boo on them for that.

Also, oddly I think I realized this when Joe and Cecile seemed to have a much more passionate kiss in this episode than Barry and Iris ever really do. Which brings me back to blaming the actors (particularly Gustin I think) for just not being able to bring an appropriate amount of passion or desire to romantic scenes most of the time. Even in episodes like the Valentine's Day one, there just...I don't know, there should have been more there that these quick, chaste kisses. It's like the only time they were able to pull that off was in episode 4, and that was very likely because the script said explicitly "Barry and Iris kiss passionately lying down on the couch" or or something.

So I'm thinking if it's not directly in there, they certainly don't bother to bring it on their own account. I just find that annoying.

Edited May 3, 2017 by ruby24

[TwistedandBored]

12 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

So...I realized I'm back to my irritation that they don't have Barry and Iris kiss nearly enough on this show. I'm sorry, but they don't! They didn't even kiss after his second proposal and then three episodes in a row with nothing.

I know this isn't that big a deal, but I think I wouldn't care as much if they had ever shown them being passionate, like, at all in the beginning of their relationship. The only passion they've ever shown was that brief makeout scene in episode 4 and that's it. I was disappointed then, we never got anything after that, and now it's declined to nothing. Boo on them for that.

I am getting tired of this as well. Showing us a little WestAllen here or there won't hurt the show. It would enhance this storyline if we saw some action. I mean, It would actually be more believable that Barry would be all over Iris because he fears he will be losing her. 

[benteen]

IGN's review was right to point out that that writers are way too obsessed with having every character involved in a romantic relationship. 

[ruby24]

2 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

I am getting tired of this as well. Showing us a little WestAllen here or there won't hurt the show. It would enhance this storyline if we saw some action. I mean, It would actually be more believable that Barry would be all over Iris because he fears he will be losing her. 

I actually agree with this. I think it's an important part of showing a couple that's supposed to be in love, honestly. I know there's barely any stage direction in these scripts, but that's where the actors have to come in with adding little things to make it more convincing, and...I just don't see nearly enough of that with these two sometimes. Put in some more effort.

[TwistedandBored]

2 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I actually agree with this. I think it's an important part of showing a couple that's supposed to be in love, honestly. I know there's barely any stage direction in these scripts, but that's where the actors have to come in with adding little things to make it more convincing, and...I just don't see nearly enough of that with these two sometimes. Put in some more effort.

I agree. I feel like GG is not really all about the romantic side of the relationship. He is more into heavy and emotional scenes which sometimes are love scenes but he doesn't see it that way. I do however think CP adds somethings to their scenes. 

I mean I ship Olicity and half the things they do is because the actors elevated that material by adding hand touches, forehead kisses, simple looks, smiles at one another, and even occasionally changing the wording of the script. 

[ruby24]

Just now, TwistedandBored said:

I agree. I feel like GG is not really all about the romantic side of the relationship.  

At all, really. For a couple that's supposed to be in love it feels like they never show ANY passion, and most of their kisses are again, too chaste, and minimal. It bugs me. I wonder if...I mean, I'm sure they get along professionally, but maybe there's just ZERO attraction there that they can even tap into for scenes like this.

I honestly think Joe and Cecile (and HR and Tracy!) based on this episode alone, have more heat between them.

[TwistedandBored]

2 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

At all, really. For a couple that's supposed to be in love it feels like they never show ANY passion, and most of their kisses are again, too chaste, and minimal. It bugs me. I wonder if...I mean, I'm sure they get along professionally, but maybe there's just ZERO attraction there that they can even tap into for scenes like this.

I honestly think Joe and Cecile (and HR and Tracy!) based on this episode alone, have more heat between them.

I mean, I didn't want to say anything but I have seen CP have an amazing chemistry with a gay guy. GG seems like he is just uncomfortable with romantic scenes. Saying that, he is better with CP than all of the other ladies he has been had romantic scenes with though. So, that is something. 

Anyways, I remember complaining about why WestAllen weren't allowed to be more passionate and I was told Flash is more for kids. So, they have to make WestAllen chaste. 

[Trini]

Yeah, I'd blame the showrunners (producers/writers/directors/editors) before the actors. It's not the network, either. They can show us more and still be "family friendly". It's not an either/or situation.

 

1 hour ago, benteen said:

IGN's review was right to point out that that writers are way too obsessed with having every character involved in a romantic relationship. 

I don't mind the 'romantic intrigue'. I think it's important to show the characters outside the STAR Labs/crimefighting setting. It's only been this season where everyone has a romantic interest at the same time. At least they managed to tie in Joe and Cecile to Barry figuring out Savitar.

[phoenics]

I'm just tired of the romance being sexless.  And passionless.  The kids can close their eyes. Dang.  Kid shows I watched growing up had more passion.  Look at Lois and Clark.

[Katsullivan]

13 hours ago, phoenics said:

13 hours ago, Trini said:

Actually, you know what, since some are determined to see 'snowbarry' happen, there's now a demented version of Caitlin and a demented version of Barry in the show, so those two can hook up; while Barry and Iris plan their wedding. ?

Yeah i figured this is where they were going.  :/

Quite certain that this is why there's an instant "bond" between Savitar and Killer Frost. As many people pointed out, there's no reason why KF should have any kind of devotion to any version of Barry Allen... but DP also said that Caitlin and Barry flirted and had a romantic connection in season 1 so it's quite obvious that this show has a specific agenda. When If the show eventually kill Iris off, this bond between Savitar & Frost can always be the foundation of their eventual endgame. 

I also predict a lot of romantic scenes between this evil!Snowbarry in the next few episodes. 

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, doram said:

*Remind me again why HR follows Barry and Cisco to recruit her when Iris could have gone just as easily? Why, it's almost like if they're pushing Iris out of her storyline to make room for other whiter and/or male-r characters.

Because that would actually make Iris relevant and the showrunners clearly have an agenda against that ever happening. 

[Trini]

I never really noticed that Joe kept his wedding ring on*, but I'm glad that Joe and Cecile are moving forward. They're cute together, I've wanted Joe to have a life outside his kids' shenanigans and work. However, I had to *facepalm* at him breaking up with her -- come on.... You are grown and should know better than Barry, Joe!

 

*(then again, I hardly pay attention to anyone's jewelry, real life or TV)

[Cleanqueen]

On 5/3/2017 at 0:03 AM, doram said:

In the last episode when Barry returned from the future, the script writer's (a contracted/guest writer, not a core show writer) original version of his passionate reunion with Iris was edited / changed by the showrunners to the shoulder-brush and a heart to heart with Joe. 

The same thing happened with the guest writer for the season 2 Trajectory episode who wrote the scene of Barry and Iris in the club talking about E2 Westallen. Her script was also edited to remove 'too much Westallen'.

I will bet good money that the degree of passion in Westallen has nothing to do with either actor and everything to do with how the showrunners perceive and want Westallen to be perceived. You only need to look at how this Iris-centric story has evolved to focus on everybody except Iris to understand why.

So why was Iris allowed to have a lot of passion with Eddie, she was straddling him in bed and WA hasn't even got a single scene close to that. The Gypsy/Cisco scenes were very passionate and just like some said the Cecille/Joe scenes even showed passion. I just don't see that with WA and I don't know why this is the case whether it's the network or actors.

[ruby24]

So I understand that Felicity and Oliver just got yet another sex scene on Arrow, while Barry and Iris are not allowed to express their love physically in any way.

Fuck that.

[johntfs]

On 5/3/2017 at 10:24 AM, Katsullivan said:

I also predict a lot of romantic scenes between this evil!Snowbarry in the next few episodes.

I don't see that happening.  It was pretty clear to me that Savitar doesn't give a rat-fuck about Killer Frost except for the specific ways that she is useful to his plans.  He's a little like Barry that way.  Barry cares for the people in his life for the most part, but if someone isn't doing what he sees as their part in helping him achieve his goals, Barry can be pretty damned hard on them.  As witness Wally.

Edited May 5, 2017 by johntfs

[johntfs]

24 minutes ago, doram said:

If anything, I got the opposite impression. When she "failed", he could have left her there to rot and killed Tracy. Instead he took the time to carry her out bridal-style to safety. 

She was still useful to his plans.  And if he carried her any other way (fireman style) she'd get impaled by his costume.  And be useless to his plans.

Edited May 5, 2017 by johntfs

[Trini]

2 hours ago, ruby24 said:

So I understand that Felicity and Oliver just got yet another sex scene on Arrow, while Barry and Iris are not allowed to express their love physically in any way.

They've also been broken up for an entire season and dating other people. I'd love more intimate scenes with Barry and Iris, but I'm not going to forget that they're engaged and have their own original love song. ❤️?

[GHScorpiosRule]

12 hours ago, Trini said:

They've also been broken up for an entire season and dating other people. I'd love more intimate scenes with Barry and Iris, but I'm not going to forget that they're engaged and have their own original love song. ❤️?

True, but we didn't even get a drawn out love/sex scene(s) with Barry and Iris for their first time, let alone celebrating being engaged, or after that musical.

Look, I like Oliver and Felicity and though not a die hard shipper, I can see they love each other and wanted them back together, if only because of that stupid story that broke them up. But I'm with @ruby24 on this.

[Katsullivan]

Anyone watching the last few episodes of this show would wonder if Barry is about to lose his fiancee or his sister. which, I imagine, is the entire point. 

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Anyone watching the last few episodes of this show would wonder if Barry is about to lose his fiancee or his sister. which, I imagine, is the entire point. 

Well, depending on how you look at it, Iris is kind of both.

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, johntfs said:

Well, depending on how you look at it, Iris is kind of both.

Depending on the agenda that's being pushed, I guess. Which is either the agenda of accepting what the show has consistently presented us - that there is no sibling relationship between Iris and Barry - or an agenda that is determined to dismantle/dismiss/deride any representation of interracial romance on TV. 

Which, as I said, is the whole point of the "desexualization" of their relationship.

[johntfs]

I'm fine with carnal affection in whatever way it manifests, but I don't need it to buy Barry and Iris as a deeply committed couple completely in love with each other.  Iris has been Barry's best friend, sister and lover.  She's been closer to Barry than his own blood family for well over a decade.

[tofutan]

I find it hard to compare Flash and Arrow in that regard. Arrow has always been a lot darker and lot racier, not just with Olicity, but also with Oliver/Sara or Oliver/Laurel. I don't think that the network has problems with interracial relationships, considering they did Kendra/everybody (Carter AND Ray AND Savage)  and Nick/Amaya on Legends. With Nick/Amaya coming the closest to having an actual sex scene. Well they and Sara/The Queen of France. 

It's kinda hard to compare because Legends or even Supergirl don't really have this big central couple yet where you would expect the big romantic sex scene with music in the background. So it's hard to say whether IF they had couples like that those types of scenes would happen. Or whether it's really just Arrow is the odd one out because they constantly do scenes like that, regardless of whether it's a big couple or not. 

Personally, I'd rank the DCTV shows from raunchiest to least raunchy like this: Arrow (-> Smallville) -> Legends -> Supergirl -> Flash

But it does feel like the show has this really idealized wholesome view of WA and that really cages Iris in as a character. 

Edited May 6, 2017 by tofutan

[BkWurm1]

On 4/26/2017 at 8:19 PM, notagain said:

I think this epsiode was about the promise more than  Barry making more memories with Iris. The episode started with Iris asking Barry to look after her family, and when Barry gets to the future, he hasn't kept his promise. Sure Future!Barry told him to make more memories with Iris, but that would require Barry to also accept Iris' death and the show has shown consistently Barry is in denial, in the same conversation with Iris, Barry tried shutting down talk of her death and that has happened in pervious episodes and conversations Iris has tried to have with Barry.

 

On 5/2/2017 at 11:03 PM, doram said:

In the last episode when Barry returned from the future, the script writer's (a contracted/guest writer, not a core show writer) original version of his passionate reunion with Iris was edited / changed by the showrunners to the shoulder-brush and a heart to heart with Joe. 

The same thing happened with the guest writer for the season 2 Trajectory episode who wrote the scene of Barry and Iris in the club talking about E2 Westallen. Her script was also edited to remove 'too much Westallen'.

I will bet good money that the degree of passion in Westallen has nothing to do with either actor and everything to do with how the showrunners perceive and want Westallen to be perceived. You only need to look at how this Iris-centric story has evolved to focus on everybody except Iris to understand why.

It's stuff like this that has led me to believe that yes WestAllen is the endgame, but the writers are a lot more interested in telling Joe West and Barry Allen's love story.  This show is such a boys club.  The relationships between Barry and his father figures/mentor/best friends always seem to be directed on screen with more weight and omf.  

I think the show runners just aren't interested in showcasing Iris and Barry on anything but that PG level.  Maybe they ask themselves, what could Joe handle seeing?  and not cross that line.    

On 5/3/2017 at 10:24 AM, Katsullivan said:

Quite certain that this is why there's an instant "bond" between Savitar and Killer Frost. As many people pointed out, there's no reason why KF should have any kind of devotion to any version of Barry Allen... but DP also said that Caitlin and Barry flirted and had a romantic connection in season 1 so it's quite obvious that this show has a specific agenda. When If the show eventually kill Iris off, this bond between Savitar & Frost can always be the foundation of their eventual endgame. 

I also predict a lot of romantic scenes between this evil!Snowbarry in the next few episodes. 

In season 1, I agree that Caitlin and Barry did flirt and we did see a spark of a romantic connection but it got shut down pretty fast and there was zero indication they were going there in the ensuing seasons.  I say this as someone that initially was on team SnowBarry.  They just had a much better basis for a connection in the beginning of the first season since he actually opened up to Caitlin and she was involved in his real life while Iris was pushed to being someone that was from his past (and happily in love with someone else).  

If they'd let Eddie live, I could have easily envisioned the show dropping WestAllen and doing SnowBarry way down the road after they were done with bringing Caitlin's fiance back.  But I think Eddie dying was always the plan so SnowBarry was probably just the actors having a nice chemistry at first and the script letting the team members get to know each other.  But from where I sat, the show runners very firmly established they were not going to have another Laurel problem on their hands. (Which Iris never was because people actually liked Iris)  SnowBarry was never going to happen except as a tease once and a while.  But end game?  Never.  Frankly, Barry and Caitlin aren't close enough friends for that to ever be in the works.   

I'd be very surprised if there is much made of a romantic connection between KF and Savitar since he seems pretty unfeeling and so far has treated KF with a disdain that indicates really bad boyfriend material, lol.  I think he's incapable of love which is why he's ok with Iris dying. So I just don't see them squishing in a love connection this close to the end of the season.  I think KF backed him because she just loves the irony too much.  She wants to hurt the people that were her friends and this really lets her do that.  Now as to WHY Caitlin is like this when no one else has been turned evil by their powers, that I will never understand.