Spoilers With Speculation

[Demented Daisy]

Okay, I've been trying to withhold my negative Nelly side, but I made myself really sad today.

 

I was following the pics of Jensen and Misha getting ice cream with their families on some island in Washington and then apparently they went for a spa day for Misha's birthday. And we've been getting pics of them on set and just all the Cockles (not the ship but the friendship) of them together and when have we ever gotten that before other than cons. And I thought this is so lovely but unusual...and then it hit me....

 

What if this their last hurrah together because they really and truly killed off Castiel in a really most sincerely dead way.  And I'm further scared it's going to be the episode Jensen directed. And that does tie in to everyone saying that the show is going back to just the boys and killing off Castiel and/or Crowley surely does that. 

 

meep :( (Way to bring down the house, cat)

 

 

And no one thought that blind item I posted could be about Supernatural....

[7kstar]

I don't normally wave the "I mentioned this theory like back when the episode aired' flag. But I did...

 

 

You and I had the same thought about the same time.  I may not have posted due to someone saying it first.  I don't always post if you guys have already put it out there as it gets too redundant.  But this last post said "the camp" so that infers that more of us think this.  :)

 

Alycat • 14 hours ago

Once more with feeling... Dean's killing of Death did not remove the MOC nor did it release The Darkness! Rowenas spell cast from the Book of the Damned was what lifted the MOC from Dean. That's it. You would think that if you were going to report on a show that you would at least get the basic facts correct.

I just love this response to the article.  Feels like it has been needed every time they talk about Dean being released from the darkness.  :)

 

Catrox14

Jensen posted a picture of Misha and Him dancing and watching a sunset around the time that Dean beats Cas very badly.  So they could have some moments where Cas isn't really around  but I don't think they want the backlash it would cause if Cas was gone for good. 

 

My thought was Jensen and Misha were in the same area, Misha has a boat and Jensen is getting interested in a boat.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  I'm not ready for them to kill off another character for good, as I'm already shaky about this season.

Edited August 22, 2015 by 7kstar

[rue721]

The Darknesssss WANTS stuff? It's going to be RELATABLE? YMMV, but personally, I'd prefer if the Darkness were scary and mysterious, not some relatable lady with a comprehensible agenda.

Not to rant, but what I really do hate about the later years of this show is how they've systematically taken ALL the mystery out of the SPN universe. Now they're not just overexplaining the afterlife, they're overexplaining existence itself (with this Darkness bullshit). Something that I genuinely loved about the earlier days of the show was how mysterious and big the SPN universe felt, and I feel like all this overexplaining makes the show feel so claustrophobic and flat. I'll be watching and all, I'm not going to play the "I'll boycott!" game, bc I know I won't actually boycott. But I'm not looking forward to this Darkness SL at all.

Also, DDD - you know I love the shit out of Lex Luthor, so I've gotta ask: how is The Darkness reminding you of Lex?

[catrox14]

You and I had the same thought about the same time. I may not have posted due to someone saying it first. I don't always post if you guys have already put it out there as it gets too redundant. But this last post said "the camp" so that infers that more of us think this. :)

I wasnt directing my comment at you. I was teasing Mick Lady because she harasses me about my theories. That's all. It was just some good natured ribbing.

[DittyDotDot]

Also, DDD - you know I love the shit out of Lex Luthor, so I've gotta ask: how is The Darkness reminding you of Lex?

 

Well, I wouldn't say the Darkness has yet reminded me of Lex, but Demented Daisy posted that interview with Carver saying, "I don’t think the Darkness thinks that the Darkness is a threat at all. Hopefully, sometimes that is the best Big Bad: They think they are the hero of their own story."   TBH, I doubt it will actually be Lex, but since I just finished S5 of Smallville, it was fresh on my mind and I was just being snarky.

[Mick Lady]

You and I had the same thought about the same time. I may not have posted due to someone saying it first. I don't always post if you guys have already put it out there as it gets too redundant. But this last post said "the camp" so that infers that more of us think this. :)

I wasnt directing my comment at you. I was teasing Mick Lady because she harasses me about my theories. That's all. It was just some good natured ribbing.

 

Not harassment, self preservation! You've started more discussions/arguments at my house than anyone I can ever remember. Not even the "Breaking Bad" threads caused this much conversation. One of Mick's friends was over today, and the first thing he said to me was; "Did you see what catrox said about Death and Metatron?" No shit, he honestly wanted to talk about it. He was referring to the post you made yesterday. I love the fact he refers to you like he knows you! I have to get him to post!

 

But he loves Rowena...

[rue721]

Well, I wouldn't say the Darkness has yet reminded me of Lex, but Demented Daisy posted that interview with Carver saying, "I don’t think the Darkness thinks that the Darkness is a threat at all. Hopefully, sometimes that is the best Big Bad: They think they are the hero of their own story."   TBH, I doubt it will actually be Lex, but since I just finished S5 of Smallville, it was fresh on my mind and I was just being snarky.

 

I guess the Darkness is kind of like a colonist or a colonialist power? It doesn't think of itself as a threat, it doesn't understand the world it's in (and probably doesn't care to anyway), and it's just going to try and get what it needs for its own reasons, regardless of whether everything/everyone around it becomes collateral damage.

 

Ugh but I'm still stuck on the Darkness *wanting* things and having any agenda at all. Giving this ~primeval force~ a logical agenda/motivation seems too simplistic and undermines how threatening the Darkness seems imo.

 

To tie it back to Lex -- what made Lex (become) a legitimately scary villain on Smallville, imo, was that he was bad sort of despite himself. I mean, he was actively doing wrong and making terrible choices, it's not that he just was the victim of a unfair "bad rap" or anything. But imo it made him (relatively) frightening that he *knew* that by doing wrong, he was destroying himself and everything he cared about, and he was tormented by that -- and yet he *still* did wrong. It was like he didn't have real control over it. His motives and methods were always really muddled and circuitous, too, which just emphasized that lack of control (imo).

 

To be fair about the choices that the SPN writers are making about The Darkness, I don't think that SPN could tolerate a character like that. I think that SPN can tolerate complex or "morally grey" characters pretty well (examples could be the Trickster or Crowley), but I don't think it can really tolerate enigmatic characters -- and imo what makes Lex stand out is that he's pretty enigmatic (and he even seems like an enigma to himself imo).

 

I think that the show sometimes gets pretty close to giving Sam a similar characterization to Lex. I mean, Sam can also be his own worst enemy. He has justified his thirst for power and self-destructive impulses by claiming that he's just doing whatever he has to to protect/save the world, even though it seems like personal motives are really what's driving him (like with all the blood addiction stuff right after Sam couldn't rescue Dean from Hell, or all that Trials nonsense). Like Lex, Sam apparently also has this semi-hidden core of simmering rage and obsessiveness (like he showed in Mystery Spot). But SPN has never tried to portray Sam as an enigma or tormented the way that Smallville portrayed Lex, and that makes the characters fundamentally different imo. And I think that that fundamental difference in the characters comes from a fundamental difference in the tone/nature of the shows. I think SPN really doesn't deal in enigmas. It prefers to explain them away imo.

 

Not that I think that's a *failing* of SPN per se, but I think that's a reason why SPN's villains have been relatively unsuccessful. They end up seeming too "small potatoes" and ordinary, because they just aren't enigmatic enough. Once they're fully explained (which happens very early and very thoroughly, usually), they feel small and lose their magic. Even the best of the lot (imo), Yellow Eyes, took a big hit when it turned out that it had demon sons and daughters, and some boring/straightforward ascension scheme for its Blood Babies/Psychic Kids. Imo, The Darkness is already falling victim to the same problem.

[Aeryn13]

I know it wasn`t Smallville`s goal but couple years in I was actively rooting for Lex to nuke them all. I was just so fed up with all these people, especially Clark, on his behalf that I didn`t blame him for walking down the Garden path in the end. 

 

The Darkenss at this point is even more blameless, as I understand. It was imprisoned for millenia for no other reason than existing and being in the way. It could hardly have been a danger to a creation that wasn`t yet created. From its standpoint, humans must be like squatters in its own house.

 

That said, I just wish they wouldn`t do this in the first place. And I say this as someone who normally loves villains with a legitimate emotional claim. The best villains in stories for me all almost always former best friends/family/lovers of the hero/es. Especially if both of them still have an attachment to each other. Makes the whole thing more juicy.

 

But SPN neither has the scope nor talent to pull it off. Their earlier Seasons worked better IMO on the more simplistic black-and-white principle. Azazel was evil because he was evil. The only reason the brothers ever found their cases was because murder and mayhem had happened, meaning there was at least one evil monster afoot. It solidified their role as hunters who were needed and as heroes of the piece.

 

These days the brothers have a higher kill count than almost everyone, regularly screw up the world due to selfishness and on top of that the show is intent on exploring "good monsters" and bad guys who are "the heroes of their own stories". Yet it is still supposed to function on the same principle of the brothers as the heroes we are supposed to root for. Goodness gracious, that`s like starting to tell the story of Gandhi and at the halfway point switching to tell the story of Charles Manson and thinking it`s gonna flow seamlessly and noone will notice.

 

Just do a bad guy who is truly evil and maybe at least by comparism your protagonists will look less so, okay.     

[DittyDotDot]

The Darkenss at this point is even more blameless, as I understand. It was imprisoned for millenia for no other reason than existing and being in the way. It could hardly have been a danger to a creation that wasn`t yet created. From its standpoint, humans must be like squatters in its own house.

 

Perhaps it was a threat though? I'm hoping that it was a threat to God, in some manner, but won't be a threat to mankind now. I keep going back to Mara personifying the end of the spiritual in Buddhism cosmology. Which, if translated to Supernatural universe, could mean that this Amarra is the end to God. That could be really interesting.

 

However, I highly doubt this show can pull that off, so...I'm just guessing that the Darkness will end up being "bad" in the end. It is dark and black after all.

 

BTW, I agree rue, about the villains not being all that villainous once they are made relate-able. Which could be a compelling theme: how close are all of us to villainy? If it were a different show, I would applaud the effort, but I'm not sure it's really something they've done it purposefully, so I don't think I can.

 

Also, I would also say a fundamental difference between Lex and Sam is that I don't think Sam sees himself as the hero in the story in the same way Lex did. So far, to me, Lex has wanted to be the hero of the story and will sacrifice himself to be that. It's how he makes sense of why he even exists, IMO. With Sam, I felt like it was more he felt like he had no choice in the matter, but was thrown to the winds of destiny. I don't think he tried to make it a good thing as a way to justify his existence, but just finally decided to accept it. Does that even make sense?

[Aeryn13]

 

that the Darkness will end up being "bad" in the end. It is dark and black after all.

 

Heh. That reminds me of BBC`s Merlin when you would yell at the screen "they are wearing black, shoot them on sight". Like, you wouldn`t even need to know anything about them besides the colour of their clothing to tell they were a villain. "Good" characters wore bright colours. So I guess being (formerly) a black cloud just seals the deal.

 

 

Which could be a compelling theme: how close are all of us to villainy? If it were a different show, I would applaud the effort, but I'm not sure it's really something they've done it purposefully, so I don't think I can.

 

I think it is somewhat purposefully albeit in a very clumsy way. And not taking into account what kind of story they want to be telling. You can`t have a story about good-guy hunters of the supernatural if every supernatural is beige-ish and "maybe has the potential for good". Same as you can`t have them happily knifing every demonic host ever and then wring their hands about specific hosts for the odd episode or two. Or the Styne family who were, as one, so ridiculously evil, it defied belief. Except of course one College kid with glasses who was a bullied nerd just when you needed an anvillious parallel for an episode. Subtlety is not only for little men. Urgh.

[catrox14]

So, Jensen said during today's Minneapolis con that Dean did intend to kill Death but not until the last moment. And he didn't want to give it away.  I need a lot more information but right now...UGH UGH UGH.  I hate that writing choice. I really do. I hate it like them not having Sam look for Dean. 

 

And the "Forgive me" was Dean asking forgiveness for starting the whole mess by taking on the Mark.

 

Color me....annoyed.....

[catrox14]

ETA: I mean Dean killing Death outright is the literal stupidest thing Dean has ever done.  He knows that the universe is fucked now. Ugh. 

 

arggh...grrr.

[AwesomO4000]

Not that I think that's a *failing* of SPN per se, but I think that's a reason why SPN's villains have been relatively unsuccessful. They end up seeming too "small potatoes" and ordinary, because they just aren't enigmatic enough. Once they're fully explained (which happens very early and very thoroughly, usually), they feel small and lose their magic. Even the best of the lot (imo), Yellow Eyes, took a big hit when it turned out that it had demon sons and daughters, and some boring/straightforward ascension scheme for its Blood Babies/Psychic Kids. Imo, The Darkness is already falling victim to the same problem.

 

I don't know, because I'm of a different mind about this. I can see the appeal sometimes of an enigmatic villain, but if the enigma is too much so, I might just instead think, "but why?" if the villainy doesn't make some sort of sense to me. And sometimes for me the villain I can understand a little is just as scary, because I can understand how they got there, and for me that makes it all the more real.

 

For example: Jeffrey from "Repo Man." We didn't understand all of his motives - for example why exactly he had a thing against the type of women he did - but we did at least partially understand how and why he finally decided to take the plunge and let himself fall into evil. And even as we hear him say "I was never gonna to do anything, not till he came along" we know that it's likely an excuse, and that eventually he might've gone there anyway. But at the same time, as Dean is "trivializing" Jeffery's pain (as Jeffrey puts it) -  because Dean is asking purely out of need and doesn't really care how Jeffrey became this way - I can still somewhat sympathize with that point of Jeffery's. In his mind his pain and reasoning is real and relateable and knowing that about him doesn't make him less of an effective villain for me. It almost made him more scary to know that that kind of justification is maybe just a little bit in all of us or someone we know.

 

Because I think it's just as scary - to me anyway - to be able to wonder could I or someone I know ever do something like that? Same circumstances, pushed in some way, but in the end just giving in? Because for me that's some interesting and creepy shit. Whereas, sometimes too much enigma doesn't make an antagonist as effective - take Jake for example. I mean I got why he ultimately went with the Yellow Eyed Demon in the end (the threat to his family), but he was well on his way there already, and I just wanted to know why? Why did he trust the YED over Sam? Was there something in his Afghanistan (?) war past that would make him less trusting of an ally than a demon? Did he enjoy being strong and really want to be the only one? What? And knowing that would've made Jake a more effective antagonist to me rather than less so. In that case, I didn't like the "mystery," because I couldn't relate and so it just felt like it was so just because of plot purposes.

 

See also the * below for an example of motive making a villain more effective for me.

 

Also, I would also say a fundamental difference between Lex and Sam is that I don't think Sam sees himself as the hero in the story in the same way Lex did. So far, to me, Lex has wanted to be the hero of the story and will sacrifice himself to be that. It's how he makes sense of why he even exists, IMO. With Sam, I felt like it was more he felt like he had no choice in the matter, but was thrown to the winds of destiny. I don't think he tried to make it a good thing as a way to justify his existence, but just finally decided to accept it. Does that even make sense?

 

Sam did do a little of trying to make a bad thing into a good when he tried to use the powers Azazel gave him and do good with them, but I think he learned his lesson fairly quickly that that was a bad idea and went with the acceptance in the end. I think also as you say Sam was more trying to fight his destiny of being bad as opposed to trying to make himself the hero of the story. In a way, Sam was trying to make his powers be a good thing as a way to "unjustify" or disprove his existence (or destiny). For me he was less trying to be a hero and more trying to fix his mistake when he fell into the hole.

 

Lex more sounds like a sort of an Elijah Price (Unbreakable *) at the other end of the scale? He's trying to justify his existence even as he must do crappy things in order to do that (I didn't watch too much Smallville, so am I understanding that correctly?)

 

* I actually found that movie fascinating. And that was another example of a villain that understanding his motives - for me - made him more effective as a villain than when he was an enigma, because his reasoning and motivations were truly both awful and understandable at the same time. For me the true horror / awfulness / villainy / etc. came to fruition when Elijah's motives were finally revealed.

 

All that being said, I don't want the Darkness to be relateable or have motives, not because it would take the mystery for me - although I do understand that point of view, too - but because for me it makes no sense for the Darkness to have those things based on what it was described as. As I said, the Darkness to me sounded more like soulless Sam. It/he just does things because they have a direction - for soulless Sam it was hunting - and other things in the way just don't matter. I kind of interpreted the Darkness' "direction" as "existing" and anything in its way of existing would be a casualty just because, not for any real purpose. Just as, for example, Dean getting vamped was a "just because" thing for soulless Sam - a means for him to the end of hunting the vamps.

Edited August 23, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I do wonder if the Darkness being in a female form is for a reason. Like is this going to be a commentary on the patriachy and misogyny that of the Judeo-Christian theology.  Like Death said that The Darkness was amoral and had to be locked away by God and the archangels. But why? What was it doing that it was not allowed to continue?  I'll be interested to learn what it's "sins" were that got it locked away.

 

Right now,  we are taking the word of Death (who I am still in the camp that it wasn't really Death at all but a Metatron spell). But Dean got no verification from anyone else that this was true. I mean sure he didn't have time to do that and Death had always been truthful, so I can see why Dean would take his word.  

 

I dunno. Gotta noodle on it some more.

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean killing Death outright is the literal stupidest thing Dean has ever done.  He knows that the universe is fucked now. Ugh.

 

The Earth should have been fucked when Lucifer got out, the Mother of all Monsters came to Earth, the Leviathans got out of Purgatory or when all the angels fell from heaven and all the good souls had to stay locked in the veil. Yet all those things barely made a dent. I expect no less or shall I say no more from Death`s demise.

 

As for being stupid, noone in that episode acted more stupid than Death himself. First the "must kill Sam" stipulation, then handing Dean the only weapon that can kill Death himself to do it, you know whereas many weapons could have killed Sam and then stood in striking range of the scythe. What a complete idiot. That was the equivalent of a bad guy slipping on a banana peel and breaking his neck.  

 

 

I do wonder if the Darkness being in a female form is for a reason.

 

I think they debated on using a guy the brothery could have semi-bromantic banter with, even in an antagonistic way or a sexy chick they could have sex-filled banter with. They already have guy relationships with Cas and Crowley so just for variety`s sake (and maybe to qualm the cries of "you always kill off the female characters" a bit) used a female form. A coin toss wouldn`t surprise me either.. 

[Demented Daisy]

First Abbadon, then Metatron, then Rowena....  I think Carver's due for a male villain, but what do I know?

[Aeryn13]

 

then Metatron...I think Carver's due for a male villain

 

Ouch.  

[SueB]

Okay, I've been trying to withhold my negative Nelly side, but I made myself really sad today.

 

I was following the pics of Jensen and Misha getting ice cream with their families on some island in Washington and then apparently they went for a spa day for Misha's birthday. And we've been getting pics of them on set and just all the Cockles (not the ship but the friendship) of them together and when have we ever gotten that before other than cons. And I thought this is so lovely but unusual...and then it hit me....

 

What if this their last hurrah together because they really and truly killed off Castiel in a really most sincerely dead way.  And I'm further scared it's going to be the episode Jensen directed. And that does tie in to everyone saying that the show is going back to just the boys and killing off Castiel and/or Crowley surely does that. 

 

meep :( (Way to bring down the house, cat)

 

Three things to make you not worry about Cas:

 

1) The trip was made possible because it's Misha's new boat and it's up near Vancouver. So.. it  was a no-biggie for a little day trip.  Fun for friends, but not a "last hurrah" kinda singular event.  I suspect the water will get cold sooner rather than later.  But I expect more boat-pictures in the future.

 

2) Jared said at the MinnCon main panel - there is no Supernatural without Misha.  My personal impression - not only does everyone ADORE the man, his popularity is obvious.  Concrete examples from MinnCon:

a. His Meet and Greet (which, like everyone else's an auction), went for 2X the price of J2's.

b. They have two costume contests. One for everyone else and one for the Castiel's (because there are SOOOOOO many people dressed as Castiel).

c. Generally EVERYTHING involving Misha sells out, costs at least as much if not more than others, and those who profit from SPN know it.

 

3) Misha himself doesn't know his future storyline but was reasonably interested in my conversation w/ Robbie Thompson and Bobo Beren's regarding Cas's story appeared to have been deferred to S11.  He was unaware of Carver's "3 year plan", agrees the Heaven story is not done, and thinks the writers change direction during the season as they see fit. Dude was not feigning interest. He's very sincere (although yes, he has a wicked wit) and I believe him when he says he doesn't know the future-Cas story. So no matter what you think the writer's think of him... one last hurrah would not be possible because they don't know enough to have one of those kinds of events.

 

Oh...I can say he's not in EP5 (but in EP6) so he's got time to recover from his scrapes. 

[catrox14]

 

o no matter what you think the writer's think of him... one last hurrah would not be possible because they don't know enough to have one of those kinds of events.

 

Okay, I don't understand this comment. I didn't say anything about what the writers think about Castiel. Like at all. Not sure how you got that out of anything I said.

 

I was just speculating that all the happiness means we are in for a rude awakening. But thanks for the rest of the information.

[SueB]

Okay, I don't understand this comment. I didn't say anything about what the writers think about Castiel. Like at all. Not sure how you got that out of anything I said.

 

I was just speculating that all the happiness means we are in for a rude awakening. But thanks for the rest of the information.

Sorry.. wasn't talking about you but it came across that way. Sorry for that. 

 

There are some folks (not the writers IMO) who want Misha gone but not a single person actually attached to the show as far as I can tell.  They ADORE him.

[Commando Cody]

They could kill Cas - if they wanted.  It doesn't mean he would be off the show. I always loved Highlander when they brought Roger Daltrey back in flashbacks. It could even be in a story about where dead angels go.  Not everybody wins.  Charlie should have been a one - off but she wasn't. So was Abaddon.  Those weren't wins for me. Keeping Cas would be a win for me. Although, I would like too see him at full power again. 

 

They did talk, when Rob was on the stage, about him being God.  I still don't buy it.  I hope he's not God. It doesn't work out for me. I don't know if they were just joking about it, this weekend, or if Chuck really is supposed to be God. 

 

RSJ hinted that Gabriel might not be dead. I liked all the episodes he was in - except the one in season 10. That one didn't do much for me. I only watched the episode once or twice - kind of passively - but I don't remember him being all that important to this one. They probably could have hired almost any angel and it wouldn't have mattered all that much. He's going to direct episode eight in season 11.  It will be interesting to see how that goes. 

[catrox14]

Angels don't do anywhere. I think they just cease to exist. Anna was reconstituted because she asked a favor of TPTB. So if Cas is killed IMO he would cease to exist.

 

I, too, don't think Chuck is God. There is not enough evidence for me. I think he's just a prophet, which brings up a point. What happened to the next prophet after Kevin if the veil is open now?  Shouldn't there be a new prophet showing up soon?

 

Gabriel wasn't Gabriel in Meta Fiction. He was a Metatron spell or rather Metatron was pretending to be Gabriel.

Edited August 24, 2015 by catrox14

[Commando Cody]

I get that Gabriel wasn't really Gabriel. I was just saying they could have brought back any actor who played an angel. I didn't think who the angel was was that important to the story.

 

What I'm really saying here is that it was a forgettable episode. 

[Omegamom]

In my head, Cas is a special angel, the Beloved of God, simply because he has been resurrected so many times. There was Lucifer Rising, where Raphael smote him. There was Lucifer killing him, and he was immediately resurrected. There was him exploding with Leviathan(s), and he came back. April the Reaper killed him when he was human, and Gadreel resurrected him.

In my head, the reason is that he's an angel who has internalized the concept of free will.

;-)

As for Chuck being God...I am undecided.

And Gabriel being merely an illusion of Metatron's...I am undecided, just because at the very end, Cas asked if he was really dead, and he gave an ambiguous answer and winked, which i don't think Metadouche would have thought of.

[shang yiet]

Speaking of beige villains, I guess Sam must trust all vampires from now on since Benny turned out to be such a saint. So he, this monster, gets to wear a halo and Sam is the bad guy for daring to distrust him. Whatever.

[mertensia]

My personal guess is that after the end of Swan Song- when Chuck apparently disappeared- is when God decided to inhabit him. Or else he is the new messenger of God. ....Does that make Chuck the new Jesus?

They said only one prophet at a time: Chuck's specific purpose was to apparently write the Winchester Gospels and chronicle the Apocalypse and once he was done he was taken away- like Elijah.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, they could totally kill Cass and have him come back from time to time: dreams, flashbacks, alternate universes. I think the fact that he hasn't had much to do since he became God is a testament to how resolved they are to keeping him around. I love Misha and Cass and I don't particularly want him gone, but I would like for them to find a way to make him relevant again. It really doesn't seem like that would be so hard.

 

I'm of the opinion that Chuck was God in Swan Song only. Previous episodes just don't line up for me otherwise, but it's still a funny notion that he could've been God all along. I remember reading lots of speculation that Chuck could be Metatron at the end of S5. In some scriptures, Metatron was a human prophet who was raised to heaven and transformed into an angel who "walked with God." Which could've been an interesting way to go.  But then they made their own version with Marvatron and that theory got squashed...or maybe it didn't? ;)

 

[...] which brings up a point. What happened to the next prophet after Kevin if the veil is open now?  Shouldn't there be a new prophet showing up soon?

 

Not-so-marvy Marv flipped a switch in Heaven so no other prophets would be made. In theory, that switch could be flipped again, but I'm thinking the show wanted Kevin to be the last prophet.

[Demented Daisy]

Kripke asked Rob Benedict how it felt to play God.  That's good enough for me.

[DittyDotDot]

It's funny that Rob didn't know that he was playing God till after Swan Song, though:

 

 

The relevant question starts at about 1 minute.

[Demented Daisy]

I don't think any of us knew until after Swan Song.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, I know, I just always get a kick out of Rob's reaction to it all.

 

"Oh, so I was God. Okay." ;)

[Omegamom]

One of the earlier episodes (E5? E6?) will feature "Lizzie Borden's Bed and Breakfast":

http://m.imgur.com/a/Jtd8e

[DittyDotDot]

Sounds like it could be fun!

[SueB]

They are filming EP5 today.

[catrox14]

I'm just glad to know the Baby episode is not any kind of "humanization" of Baby.  I'm really looking forward to that one.

[SueB]

MinnCon spoilers...off the top of my head because I didn't write them down.  However, many of them are in the MinnCon videos or the storify version from twitter.

 

- Richard is directing EP 8

- Mark said that it was Fergus who had Mommy issues, not Crowley.  He also said to pay attention to what happened to Crowley's eyes when he was 'dying' (recall they turned all red).  He said that it is in Crowley's best interest to NOT let Fergus' personality come thru.  SueB commentary: He kept talking about Crowley and Fergus as if they were two entities....interestingly enough... Other bits: Mark insisted Crowley was dead. I told him flat out nobody believes him.  Crowley may be "killed" but 'he' somehow comes right back.  SueB commentary: having an appreciation for Mark's snarkiness...I think Cas does appear to kill Crowley but SOMETHING happens to him in EP2 and "Crowley" or "Fergus" or some weird duality that is in the body we know as Mark is still on the show.

- As I said on Twitter, the Reapers are PISSED at Sam & Dean for killing Death.  There is one Reaper, a woman, who tells them that if they (Sam and/or Dean) die, there's no coming back again.  The Reapers will make sure they won't end up in Heaven, Hell or Purgatory... they'll be in the "ether" somewhere.  So death is now a more permanent threat to Sam and Dean than it was before.  

- Baby episode (warning LOTs of spoilers...not everything they said will make the final cut..just filming spoilers):  They JUST finished filming the Baby episode and there were a lot of spoilers about it.  SueB commentary: although not explicitly stated, the appears to be a J2-only episode.  Jensen is in EVERY single scene.  He was pretty exhausted after filming back to back for eight days. He said Jared was not always in the car so he got a little more rest.  As I said on twitter, the episode is from Baby's POV but Baby is not personified.  They worked with #3 (car) a lot as they had to take out windows and other items for cameras.  He DID do the 180 himself.  He said because it wasn't #1, the car he's used to driving, it took three takes.  The first time he over rotated. I can't remember what happened the second time but they got it on the third take. Sue B commentary: I'm thinking if the insurance guys would have been watching, they would have had kittens.   The fight scene in the back was brutal and it was with TWO others (SueB commentary: so there goes my sexy-times attempt theory).  Jensen got banged up a bit.  Speaking of banged up, Jared recently had a muscle pull in his back and so he had to be careful getting in an out of the car.  He's better now but those long legs and the Impala can be a challenge.  The Impala, he said, is a heckuva lot better than most.  Jensen mentioned that normally in an episode they'll do some exposition in the bunker, cut the scene, and next thing you see is them in their Fed suits in Oregon or someplace.  He said this episode sort of takes off AFTER they were supposed to cut the scene.  Instead there's literally moments of dead silence as they are driving.  Jared mentioned a scene where they are sleeping in the car and he's in the backseat.  He had a hard time figuring out what to do with his legs. As seen in the video of their Main Panel, they started off joking around with Sam noisily slurping a smoothie and somehow the crew just kept going with it.  Boys.  Seriously...BOYS.  

- Misha did confirm there is a lot of wrap-up in the EP3 but feels the S10 finale is still impacting thru EP6. The Darkness is a season long plot arc... just that there's specific finale stuff still wrapping up in EP6.  He's in EP6 (but not EP5, so he'll have time for his lip to heal).  I blathered on about how it seemed like when Carver decided to stretch out his 3 year plan after they got picked up for S11, the Cas story was the one pushed out to S11.  Misha was not aware there WAS a three year plan and thinks the writers are much more fluid in the plot as the season progresses.  He DID agree the Heaven storyline was not wrapped up.

- As you may have seen in the J2 video, there is no Supernatural without Misha.  We told him what the boys said in the panel at his M&G -- he hadn't heard they said that.  SueB commentary: Misha seems to not have any more intel on his storyline than we do.  I don't think he's lying about this.  

- ETA: My question in the Gold Panel was about the pivotal (NOT poodle, thankyouverymuch) moment when Dean decides to not kill Sam.  Catrox, you'll be thrilled to know that you had the reaction Jensen was going for.  He wanted to keep it COMPLETELY a mystery until he "missed" and got Death. But, in actuality, he was affected by Sam pleading on his knees and the photos and his "Forgive Me" was asking for forgiveness because he was NOT going to do the noble thing and go off with Death.  So he changed his mind before "Forgive Me".  In the M&G we got two further tidbits ... he had a take where a tear may or maynot have slipped out (it clearly did, Jensen was in faux-denial mode) so he had them redo the scene so he could "button up" the emotions and not show that he changed his mind.  He indicated the script simply provided the actions and the dialog. It did NOT say specifically "Dean changes his mind HERE".  I know this particular tid-bit is not really a spoiler but we've been speculating about the impact of the decision and timing in this thread so I put this in here.

 

Note: I found it interesting that Misha said they follow the script very carefully and only call down to LA when it seems REALLY weird.  J2 seemed to imply a lot more interpretation goes on.  *shrugs* no clue what this meant, just thought I'd share.

 

I know I'm forgetting some other spoilers.  It's probably in videos or other reports.  If I remember anything else I shout it out.  

Edited August 25, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

Thank you for the info SueB....

 

I'll just be over here in my bunk, thinking of Jensen doing the 180s in Baby...LAWDY. 

[SueB]

Thank you for the info SueB....

 

I'll just be over here in my bunk, thinking of Jensen doing the 180s in Baby...LAWDY. 

He was VERY proud of himself (and rightly so).

Edited August 25, 2015 by SueB

[7kstar]

So a showdown with the Reapers.  What if they try to send the boys off to their perfect ideal of punishment but Chuck shows up at the last moment.  He needed to stay hidden so that Death couldn't take him down and put the boys in charge.  lol  

 

Of course it won't happen, but it does make me smile for some reason.  How would Crowley, Cas, and everyone handle having the boys in charge and no longer someone they could push around.  This could be what happens after having my first day of with students.  Tomorrow I teach my students but had one issue with a kid.  Oh the joys of teaching.  Somehow I'd imagine God saying "the joy of running a world...why don't you boys do it and see if you can do better!  :)

 

I'll just be over here imagining Jensen driving baby...

Edited August 25, 2015 by 7kstar

[catrox14]

One of things I like about Jensen, is that he is very humble but he sure does take obvious pride in his stunt work and stunt driving. I love that about him. He's a troll about the show  but I think he's sincere about himself if that makes any sense. 

 

That fucker is too much. Sigh.

[SueB]

I forgot to mention.....Jensen also says (it's on the video), that he ad-libbed a Clint Eastwood moment in the backseat fight scene and told the bad guy to "Get Our of My Car!" as he threw him out. 

[rue721]

- Mark said that it was Fergus who had Mommy issues, not Crowley.  He also said to pay attention to what happened to Crowley's eyes when he was 'dying' (recall they turned all red).  He said that it is in Crowley's best interest to NOT let Fergus' personality come thru.  SueB commentary: He kept talking about Crowley and Fergus as if they were two entities....interestingly enough... Other bits: Mark insisted Crowley was dead. I told him flat out nobody believes him.  Crowley may be "killed" but 'he' somehow comes right back.  SueB commentary: having an appreciation for Mark's snarkiness...I think Cas does appear to kill Crowley but SOMETHING happens to him in EP2 and "Crowley" or "Fergus" or some weird duality that is in the body we know as Mark is still on the show.

 

Really interesting! I hadn't thought of Crowley as some kind of Crowley/Fergus duality. The duality thing doesn't really make sense to me because of the explanation that demons are just human souls that have been "twisted" through torture, though. I mean, like when Dean was a demon -- he wasn't Dean AND a demon, the demon WAS Dean. So how could Crowley and Fergus be two separate people? (I'm assuming that Crowley is "the demon" and Fergus is "the human"). It also didn't seem like Mark Sheppard was trying to play two different characters up until now. So maybe Crowley gets separated into "Crowley" and/or "Fergus" during the fight with Cas (or in the early episodes of S11)?

 

If Fergus is the one with mommy issues, then I would think that Rowena would prefer for Fergus to be around rather than Crowley (since he'd be easier to control). But maybe not, since Crowley is the powerful one? Idk. But I wonder if separating him into two separate entities is what she was planning for him (for her own ends), when she sicced Cas on him -- if she's responsible for that?

[catrox14]

I saw that on the con video.  So you were the one that asked about the Poodle moment? That's so cool!

I do not understand how Crowley/Fergus can be any kind of duality.  That's some serious change of mythos of that is the case. Wasn't Fergus the demon not the meatsuit? That's why they burned his bones was to make sure he was dead.  I'm so confused.

 

You know like I get that Carver thinks Crowley is the cat's meow, but what they are doing now is getting kind of silly. I think they just want to give Mark Sheppard something to do, which is fine, but this sounds like major shift of demon nature and borderline undermines the power of full on demons like Cain and even demon!Dean.

 

ugh.

Edited August 25, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

I saw that on the con video.  So you were the one that asked about the Poodle moment? That's so cool!

I do not understand how Crowley/Fergus can be any kind of duality.  That's some serious change of mythos of that is the case.  Fergus is the demon. Crowley is the meatsuit. It's not the same thing as Dean's soul being twisted. Not only that Fergus' bones were burned.

 

ugh.

 

Since Rowena's a witch, if the duality/split thing is her doing, maybe it can be explained somehow by magic? Though, I expected more of an explanation of what demons are and how they're made when Dean became one, and that wasn't forthcoming -- so maybe they won't really bother explaining how whatever is going to be going on with Crowley fits into the show's mythos, either. I don't think that those kinds of explanations are a priority on this show, tbh.

 

Or maybe it's not actually a split, maybe Crowley continues to be as he is, but they also bring Fergus back through time travel or something off the wall like that? I wouldn't bet on something like that...but maybe a possibility?

 

Also, I stiiiiiiiiiiill want them to finish curing Crowley, because I hate that that random storythread just hanging there dangling. So that's also where my mind went when the idea of Fergus being around and visible and an actual character on the show came up. But y'know. Que sera sera :)

[SueB]

I saw that on the con video.  So you were the one that asked about the Poodle moment? That's so cool!

That was me.  PIV-O-TAL.  I gotta work on diction.  It was my daughter pointing at my head that Jared noticed.  So, luckily I got to ask my question. It's funny, Lynn from Fangasm and I had talked about it beforehand and I planned to ask it during Jensen's M&G. Instead, I got to ask it in the Gold Panel and because of that I got to ask my second question in the M&G, someone asked for MORE details from my first question in the M&G, and Lynn expanded on my question in the Jared M&G (it was about character growth).

 

Which reminds me... More data:

- I prefaced that S10 had a lot of character growth for both Sam and Dean and I asked Jared if that growth would still be in place for S11.  He said it would. That S11 was really just a continuation of S10. But he also mentioned that "it" (I'm guessing the growth???) would be talked about right at the start of the season.  I followed up with "What was your favorite character growth for Sam in S10?" and his response was his "re-commitment to his brother." Lynn or someone then asked if that had been an issue and he thought it had been a problem for a couple of years and now that was over and he was very glad about it.

- Lynn told Jensen about Jared's character growth comment (about re-commitment to Dean) and asked if Dean felt that distance with Sam.  Jensen replied that he thinks Dean did.  But that while they had come together some after the being cured as a demon, Dean specifically started to distance himself AFTER Cain said that he would never stop killing.  That really was the moment for Dean when he knew he had to start backing away from Sam because he was going to have to go on his own eventually.  

- I talked about what I thought was astonishing openness on Dean's part in S10 and wondered if that would continue. His response was that was ALL THE MARK OF CAIN.  (SueB commentary: I wonder if he could see my face fall at that moment?) He wanted the Demon version of Dean to be the guy who just didn't care. About anything.  He wanted to show the Mark was still affecting him and that as he went on in the season, he was more open because he was closer to becoming a Demon again. He didn't care about his walls, he just said what he thought.  I said "even in the confessional?" and he said "yes, even then.  He just said whatever came to mind."  He thinks that S11 is like a CTRL-ALT-DEL and that he and Sam are on the same page. He expects the walls to come back up. My response was "wow, that's really interesting". (in the meantime I'm thinking SHIT! that's really a bummer... I LIKED open-Dean.) SueB commentary:  I mean I truly get it...and it was a pretty brilliant move on his part.*sigh*  I think I just wanted Dean to be more open so I didn't see how that was really a sign of demon behavior creeping back in.*sigh* again. Now I have to rewatch S10 with this understanding so I can see what he's doing more clearly.  BTW... I think he knew exactly what I was hoping for.. the man is very smart*.  

 

 

*BTW: he's also got a naughty mind.  In one panel there was some talk about the backseat thing and someone made a choking noise like fighting and you should have SEEN Jensen's face (or just watch the video).  Dude blushes, covers his face and nearly loses it.  And I immediately KNEW what he was thinking.  Which means I have a dirty mind too.  Still... watch it, it's pretty funny.  

Edited August 25, 2015 by SueB

[Mick Lady]

We all already knew you had a dirty mind.

 

Your questions were spot on ,and probably some of the best in the whole Con. I just wish that everyone that attended these things had as much insight! Some of the questions were just plain...well, you know.

Edited August 25, 2015 by Mick Lady

[catrox14]

Sometimes I wonder if the questions like "who do you like to work with the best" are just baiting questions to start tumblr wars..

 

I thought most of the questions were good.

 

I am disappointed that the Mark is the thing that made Dean let down his guard or be more like fuck y'all to a degree.Or to be...HAPPY for like 5 freaking seconds.  I mean fuck that.

 

Lord knows, I adore Jensen/Dean but that is just blech writing or probably more like lack of writing so he's filling in the gaps like he does.

 

Jeebus, that's awful to put Dean through that ringer for TWO FUCKING YEARS and he doesn't get anything good out of it? LIKE at all?  No personal growth? No sense of peace or self-acceptance? I don't get it :(. No sense that he can acknowledge that he's a nerd at heart and a badass too? Or that he can just be who he is without being ashamed of himself or less self-loathing. Man. I don't know what to make of that...:(

[SueB]

d'awwww Mick Lady...thanks.

 

Unlike most cons this was VERY full of newbies (like me).  A lot of women/youngergirlsinparticular just lost their shit. Crying, upset, etc...   And it's not like they WANTED to be that way, it was just overwhelming.  Some of that was cut out of the videos...which was a good thing... I felt bad for them.  

Edited August 25, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

Also, I stiiiiiiiiiiill want them to finish curing Crowley, because I hate that that random storythread just hanging there dangling. So that's also where my mind went when the idea of Fergus being around and visible and an actual character on the show came up. But y'know. Que sera sera :)

 

I don't think they can finish curing Crowley because Sam would drop dead because the trials are still incomplete. Them not finishing curing Crowley was to stop the trials because it was going to kill Sam. So I don't see how they can do that now.

 

women/youngergirlsinparticular just lost their shit. Crying, upset, etc...   And it's not like they WANTED to be that way, it was just overwhelming.  Some of that was cut out of the videos...which was a good thing... I felt bad for them.

 

That's really interesting. I wonder why this one was so different.

[AwesomO4000]

... In the M&G we got two further tidbits ... he had a take where a tear may or maynot have slipped out (it clearly did, Jensen was in faux-denial mode) so he had them redo the scene so he could "button up" the emotions and not show that he changed his mind.

 

What would the tear have been from? Do you think Jensen was originally thinking that Dean should have one and then changed his mind, or was he just that into the scene and Jared made him cry? ; )