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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I agree. No witches.  As much as I love James Marsters..meh no thanks. 

 

I just don't want it to be that the boys or Sam ends up beholden to witches to get Dean back. It's bad enough that he's going to have to work with Crowley assuming he can even find Crowley.

 

Also, fuck that witch/dog episode. My gods it was more racist than racist ghost truck! /head desk

Edited by catrox14
Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

After centuries in Hell (isn't this what happened to Ruby?), Crowley's mom should be a demon by now.  Unless they want to break canon... again.  

 

But, hey, maybe Crowley wants a good old fashioned family reunion -- or someone tries to use her against him, like Abbadon tried to do with his son.  (Now that Dean's a demon, maybe he searches Hell for her.  *shrug*)

mertensia

mertensia

 

I just don't want it to be that the boys or Sam ends up beholden to witches to get Dean back. It's bad enough that he's going to have to work with Crowley assuming he can even find Crowley.

Sam's going to have to work with Crowley? Did I miss something? My read of the finale was that Crowley is going to take Dean back with him and tell Sam, sorry Moose; not going to help you.  Crowley's words to Dean certainly made it sound like he was -raising?- Dean so that he could disappear with him what with that "let's go howl at the moon" comment to me.

 

Could the witch have allayed herself with Abaddon somehow?

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

After centuries in Hell (isn't this what happened to Ruby?), Crowley's mom should be a demon by now.  Unless they want to break canon... again.  

 

But, hey, maybe Crowley wants a good old fashioned family reunion -- or someone tries to use her against him, like Abbadon tried to do with his son.  (Now that Dean's a demon, maybe he searches Hell for her.  *shrug*)

 

Do we know that his mother ever died?

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Sam said "rowley, you got him into this and you are going to get him out, or so help me God..." rght before he uses the summoning spell, which Crowley knew was happening. Crowley said, "Your brother is summoning me right now.' etc. when he was talking to Dean. As I understand it,  a summoning spell compels a demon to respond,they can't just ignore it unless it was done wrong. And Sam isn't going to do it wrong. So Crowley might have said "Let's go howl at the moon" but he's going to have to answer the summoning spell. 

 

My point is that Sam intention was to compel him to work with him to save Dean, unless somehow he avoids the summoning spell.
 

Edited by catrox14
DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

I kinda felt like Crowley's "howl at the moon" speech was more akin to Chuck's speech at the end of Swan Song...nothing ever ends. I don't know, but I didn't get the feeling that he was going to disappear with Dean or anything like that--I thought he was just saying: wake, rise, live... . I guess could see them having Dean disappear as they did with Sam at the end of Swan Song, though...they do love their literary symmetry on this show.

 

I wish they'd stay away from witches. I have an aversion to most things witchy and they haven't ever done anything with them that's really worked well for me in the past. That string that keeps me tethered to this show is getting pretty thin, I'd rather they not fray it anymore.  And please, for the love of all thing unholy, do not have the witch be Crowley's mother--haven't we reached the limit on this family ties stuff by now?

Edited by DittyDotDot
NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

I am just curious to know exactly how (if?) this whole demon thing will change Dean. I mean, is he like Cain? If so, Cain had power but he wasn't some amoral killing machine (when we met him).

 

Will Dean KNOW that he's a demon or is that something that the boys will find out later? How will Dean react to that? Is he just going to be super-strong and able to pink goo demons like Cain did? Or is Dean going to have a completely different personality?

 

Basically, how DEAN will Dean be in S10?

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the concept of Cas' stolen grace is that, once it wears out, he dies. The show did imply that this was not the same as Cas having his grace stolen by Metatron. Metatron was God-like at that point (IIRC), so I wouldn't be surprised if he had been able to extract Cas' grace and then, when he waved his hand to heal the wound, he sort of...gave him human life or something. :)

 

I really hope that Cas isn't off doing his own shit again in S10. Much as I like seeing Misha Collins, I enjoy his interactions with Sam and Dean. I would like to see Team Free Will working TOGETHER to free Dean from demondom and saving Cas' life.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Maybe instead of Crowley's mom, it could be Gavin's mom -- don't think we know anything about her.  She might be a witch, too.  *shrug*

 

I might have the germ of an idea, about a group of witches as the season Big Bad, but I'm still working on it.  I might like it, if the show does a better job with them than they did with the Leviathan.  Unlikely, I know, but....

 

Or maybe Sam and Dean work with them against Crowley, despite their feelings about witches (since the show loves doing this so much).  

SueB

SueB

  • Author
(edited)

 

unless somehow he avoids the summoning spell.

I don't recall them EVER skipping out on responding to a summoning spell.  He was delayed while working with Dick Roman.  Now he said Dick Roman had him in a Devil's Trap but was he still in the trap when they were negotiating?  So... I think there is precedence for SOME flexibility on timeliness that I'll even suggest it might be tied to power.  Like a lower level cross-roads demon pops in pretty dang quickly but perhaps Crowley can stroll in within a longer time window.  But even look at the cross-roads demons -- they take the time to put on a meatsuit that appeals to the mark (note Dean's are always dark haired beauties).  And it appears that more than just the summoned demon gets a clue they are being summoned as the masseuse knew a Winchester was calling Crowley.  So the rules I think have precedence for him showing up late AFTER he wakes up Dean. But I don't think he can give it a pass altogether.  Will we see it on-screen?  IDK.  He could stiff him with "buzz off" but I think they'd want to show us the confrontation because it's good drama. I think we are closer to the S4 finale where we will see Crowley's speech to Dean as the start of S10 like we saw the last few second of S4 at the start of S5. 

 

Regarding witches:

- I generally find them skeevy.  I'm with Dean on that -- too many entrails and body fluids with that lot.  On the other hand, what witches have they ACTUALLY defeated?  Consulting the Super-wiki on witches http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Witches the times Sam/Dean personally defeated them were pretty damned hard/limited:

- Shrtiga - YES - iron rods only at the moment of feeding

- Malleus Maleficarum - NO - Witches killed by the demon (Tammi) who they sold their soul too - Dean killed the demon with Ruby's knife

- Don - MAYBE - it sure seems like they killed him with a normal gun (before he became Samhain the Demon who Sam exorcised). Perhaps a normal witch can be killed with any old gun but you usually can't get the drop on them

- Jay (Criss Angel) - killed by his own knife

The rest are either not witches or not killed.  So a witch would be pretty hard to kill.  And Crowley has successfully used witchcraft on them before.  So... IDK, a centuries old witch would be a difficult opponent.  But I thought a normal-variety witch is tied to a demon and with Crowley as "King of Hell", I'm not sure how that works.

 

In short, witch is not a bad guess --Scottish ties to Crowley, Crowley ties to witches.  "Elegant" frankly suggests someone older than 40 -- because to be on the CW, be sexually attractive as a woman, be over 30 AND be a recurring character there has to be something unusual about you.  And "elegant" seems like a CW-acceptable substitute for the usual under-30 nubile character. Add power-base, and yeah... witch seems to be at least one of the more likely options. 

 

Then again, what if Crowley had a sister?  Dear old Mom was a witch, why wouldn't Crowley's sister (if he had one) be just as likely to pick up the family business.  I know we've had our share of family-ties but bringing in Gavin kinda upset the apple cart.  Maybe Crowley's sister is one of the temporal consequences of leaving Gavin alive.  In which case... the family tie is actually more justified.  Abaddon kicked it off with her MOL time-travel knowledge and went for the Crowley family connection.  Gavin's "Aunt" could have twigged onto him and she may decide to take a run at Crowley by using two things: Gavin and Dean.  Yes Dean.  Come on, I can't be the only one that thinks an elegant woman might turn Demon Dean's head and fuel his potentially unleashed hedonism (which was barely leashed before he became a demon).  And if she can get Dean on team Rowena plus Gavin -- she could have some juice. 

 

JUST COMPLETE SPECULATION.  Feel free to ignore this one entirely. As I've said before, I don't get too tied to these pre-episode speculations because I don't want mis-aligned expectations to take away show enjoyment but I'll leave my contribution as follows:

- witch: I'd give that a reasonable chance

- related to Crowley: reasonable chance

- tries to ally w/ Dean in conflict with Crowley: just a suggestion but worth a thought I think.

Edited by SueB
kimrey

kimrey

So this girl has been cast as "Dar" which is apparently a recurring role.  I'm wondering if they maybe changed Rowen to Dar.  Or they have two recurring female roles for next season?

 

https://twitter.com/raquelriskin

 

Anyway, someone tweeted at her asking who Dar was and she said we'd find out in the beginning of the premiere.  They're filming the third episode first, though.  I don't know if she knows that or if she knows her character will be in the first scene of the premiere.  I'm really hoping she's introduced in the third episode, not the premiere. 

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

(edited)

Hmmm.  According to imdb, she's been on before -- I Believe the Children Are Our Future.  Different character, so I suppose it doesn't matter.  A little trivia doesn't hurt, though, right?

 

Dar, huh?  That's a strange name.  I wonder if it's short for something; a nickname.  Or perhaps she's an angel, since they seem to have uncommon names.  Either way, if it's a nickname, her full name might be a clue to who the character is.

 

Or I could be pulling all of this out of thin air, which is always a possibility.  :-)

 

ETA  I didn't proofread well enough.  

Edited by Demented Daisy
catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Because I have way too much time on my hands, I looked up Dar as a name. It's typically a boy's name.

According to sheknowsnames:

Gaelic Meaning:The name Dar is a Gaelic baby name. In Gaelic the meaning of the name Dar is: Dark.

 

Hebrew Meaning:The name Dar is a Hebrew baby name. In Hebrew the meaning of the name Dar is: Pearl.

 

English Meaning:The name Dar is an English baby name. In English the meaning of the name Dar is: Place where deer graze.

 

 

Maybe is short for Darla* or Darlene maybe ?

 

I would pay money for the only worthwhile Darla * (Julie Benz) to show up on SPN. I mean yes we got her for Faith but Darla...Holy crap, did I love me some Darla.

Edited by catrox14
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

10477966_711283938938405_276844179971245

 

Got this in my FB feed the other day and didn't even think of it as a spoiler.  

 

Tradition for Supernatural is for the tech scout crew to prank the director at lunch. Jim Michaels tweeted this pic of director Jensen Ackles with his lunch. Caption for the pic is "Time to prank the #supernatural director #JensenAckles ! How did he not see this coming?"

 

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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

Because I have way too much time on my hands, I looked up Dar as a name. It's typically a boy's name.

 

Maybe is short for Darla* or Darlene maybe ?

 

I would pay money for the only worthwhile Darla * (Julie Benz) to show up on SPN. I mean yes we got her for Faith but Darla...Holy crap, did I love me some Darla.

 

I'd love to see her back, especially in a large role.

 

I agree with those who think "Dar" will be a demon. I can see her saying "Call me Dar," and it's short for something else. She'll also likely be tortured and/or killed by Dean or Crowley or Sam...

7kstar

7kstar

10477966_711283938938405_276844179971245

 

Got this in my FB feed the other day and didn't even think of it as a spoiler.  

Guess he won't have to worry about going hungry.  Did they get confused, he is suppose to stuff his mouth when acting not directing, lol.

 

I'd love to see her back, especially in a large role.

 

I agree with those who think "Dar" will be a demon. I can see her saying "Call me Dar," and it's short for something else. She'll also likely be tortured and/or killed by Dean or Crowley or Sam...

I will enjoy seeing her back as I really like her in Faith.  Could she be a witch instead?  That might be an interesting witch.  I would prefer to be something interesting what ever she plays. 

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Honestly, I'm going to be a little disappointed if Dar is a demon.  Meg, Ruby, Abbadon....  Personally, I'd like to see some new hunters -- Sam and Dean can't be the only ones left, right?

 

If season 10 is Bizarro (thanks, Ditty) season 5, maybe Dar is the new Anna or Lisa -- though I'd prefer a new Pamela.   

 

Oh, see I've been thinking Bizarro S6 now that Dean is soulless, so to speak. I kinda felt like S9 was a mix of Bizarro S3-S5. You know I'm going to have to do a Bizarro post now, right? I promised one earlier this summer, but forgot...thanks for joggin' my noggin! ;)

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Is Dean actually soulless now? I go back and forth, but I think I'm leaning towards no. Demons are human souls that become demonized after centuries of torture in Hell. Since Dean was really most sincerely dead, his soul went somewhere and sadly, I think it was Hell (again) and the Mark of Cain accelerated him becoming the demon that he managed to avoid in 40 years of Hell.

 

I'm not gross sobbing at all right now.

Edited by catrox14
catrox14

catrox14

I guess for me there is a big distinction between being soulless and having a soul that is corrupted. When they were trying to cure Crowley of being a demon that was his soul being cured IIRC.  So for me, being that I am so devastated by demon!Dean I need for Dean to have a soul even if it's messed up right now. If he's soulless there is no hope for Dean :(.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

The state of Dean's soul is my number one question.  Which means I won't get an answer anytime soon.  But I'll just throw this out there ... for anyone going to ComicCon... PLEASE ASK ANY OF THE FOLLOWING QUESTIONS:

1) Did Dean stop sleeping after he got the Mark of Cain?

2) Demon soul confusion: are demons twisted souls? If so, why was Crowley told he didn't have one to bid for the Angel Tablet in "What's Up Tiger Mommy?"

3) How did Bobby get his soul back from Crowley if Gavin didn't die?

 

Now they are not likely to answer any of these but I can't ask what I really want to ask because I KNOW they won't answer anything directly about Dean's soul, Cas' grace, or Sam's plans.

 

 

Bonus question:

1) It seemed like Suzy regretted breaking her vow based on her conversations with Honor, did Dean realize that? Was this a plot point?

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

I guess for me there is a big distinction between being soulless and having a soul that is corrupted. When they were trying to cure Crowley of being a demon that was his soul being cured IIRC.  So for me, being that I am so devastated by demon!Dean I need for Dean to have a soul even if it's messed up right now. If he's soulless there is no hope for Dean :(.

 

I understand what you're saying @catrox 14, but remember, Sam eventually got his soul back, so even if Dean's soul is gone (which I'm sure it's not) there's still hope on this show.

 

Basically, I'm assuming that he's just going to act soulless because if he's just like original recipe Dean, then what would be the need to cure him or regain Human Dean? Where's the conflict or conundrum with that?

 

I was about to launch into a diatribe about how this is why I think the whole idea of curing a demon is just about the most nonsensical thing in the world--it's not a disease for Chuck's sake--but then stopped myself from continuing to beat that dead horse to death. It appears I do have some restraint after all.

 

 

ETA: @SueB...you bring up a good point about Crowley and whether he actually has a soul. If Crowley--or any demon--has no soul, then what's the point of all those deals that Crowley makes to condemn souls to Hell and then twisting them into demons? Isn't the point to get the soul and use it's power to run Hell? Isn't that why Abbadon was having her minion pull souls from folks? Wasn't that the whole point about souls and Heaven/Hell/Purgatory...oh, God, that restraint needs to be used again, me thinks. Sorry.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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7kstar

7kstar

(edited)

The whole problem of Dean being soulless is that the writers change their mind on a whim and what it means may not stick throughout the season. 

 

Plus we have the mark to add to the mix which we haven't seen other than Cain.  I'm guessing that Cain could turn the demons into the knights of hell without giving the mark, hence the reason Dean could kill Abbadon. 

 

I'm hoping that they go with a bit of humor with Dean like they did with Sam but somehow they won't be apart for long as they never have done that.  I don't think the writers know what they are doing and since I write I can get that. 

 

I have major plot points in my head when I write but not the details.  As I get to that plot point things sometimes really change from where I thought I was going.  Hence the reason the little plot holes get discovered in the first place.  The writers seem to be doing this all the time and I really believe and not sure that I disagree with them, I don't like this so lets find a way to change it.  But sometimes they just forget what has happened especially since most of the writers haven't been with supernatural for 10 years.

 

Quote from @Sue B.  - Bonus question:

1) It seemed like Suzy regretted breaking her vow based on her conversations with Honor, did Dean realize that? Was this a plot point?

 

I've forgotten who Suzy even was?  I hope who ever goes to comic con asks some good questions and Carver seems a little smarter about not giving as much information as some other show runners.  He wants to try to surprise us.  And the fact that so many of us are asking questions shows he is doing what he wants, to get us talking about supernatural.  Evil I know.

Edited by 7kstar
catrox14

catrox14

I understand what you're saying @catrox 14, but remember, Sam eventually got his soul back, so even if Dean's soul is gone (which I'm sure it's not) there's still hope on this show.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. Death is the only one that could re-en-soul Sam. He didn't even want to do that either. And Death has no love for Dean and he might even refuse to do it. How would Dean even get it back if Death refuses?! AUGHHHH!

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

It sounds like a writer's problem to me...I'm not too worried about it yet. It's pretty much a given that at some point Dean will be Dean again, so I'm just buckling in for the ride on this one. Whether the ride is actually enjoyable or not...that's the question I have. I'm betting there will be a lot of sighing coming from my house this fall.;)

 

I guess they could surprise me and keep Dean a demon, but I really haven't been surprised by this show since maybe S4 and the angels, so I don't think I will hold my breath or anything.

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kimrey

kimrey

(edited)

Of course he will.

 

I see Demon!Dean going a couple ways.

 

1. He's really, truly evil.  He's a demon and he does some horrible stuff.  But this will only last for a few episodes.  If it goes like this I'd be willing to bet that by episode 200 Sam and/or Cas will have found a way to cure him and he'll go back to normal.  He'll spend the rest of the season dealing with what he did and what has come of it.

 

2. He's a demon, but he's still himself, kinda.  He's still able to work with Sam and work cases while trying to control it.  If it goes this way he may be a demon longer, but he'll still be cured of it eventually.

 

Either way, he won't be a demon for the rest of the series.  Evil Dean just won't work with the structure of the show.  I just don't see them splitting Sam and Dean up for an extended period of time.  They need them to still work cases together.

 

So I'm not worried about it.  I'm actually pretty excited about where this could go.

Edited by kimrey
AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)

I'm jaded now. I'm honestly not convinced that Dean will be Dean again:(. 

I'm jaded also, but I'm more concerned it'll turn into almost the opposite. After Dean the vampire, I'm pretty much expecting Dean the demon to be the most caring demon that ever was... i.e. it'll be like Ruby except not lying. Meg said that demons are capable of love - and we saw that reinforced last season with Cain, supposedly the biggest baddest of all demons - and loyalty and both can be a motivation. So unless part of all of this "turn Sam into a jerk" was to get Dean to not love Sam anymore - which I doubt, more likely it'll be that Dean's such a loyal demon that he'll even forgive Sam all of that, which I roll my eyes and hope not, because I'm kind of tired of that theme. Demon Dean will of course struggle with his demon urges and maybe kill a little more easily in defense of Sam, but I mostly expect that Dean becoming a demon will make him even more loyal to Sam and just make him an even more badass hunter, which he'll still be guilty about for some reason. But if Dean the vampire was completely guilt-ridden and a badass hunter, wasn't tempted by the power, and fought as hard as he could to become human again, I suspect that demon Dean will be pretty much the same.

 

The only way this show will surprise me is if Dean actually embraces being a demon for more than one episode and just goes nuts - a la Castiel hopped up on purgatory souls - but I doubt it. More likely Sam will be made to do something crappy and out of character (in my opinion) like vow to hunt down Dean even though Dean didn't do anything really (or just had a momentary lapse) and even though Sam's really never done that before and usually gives monsters, etc a chance or forgives everyone (else) almost immediately - like Castiel and Gadreel. And then at the midpoint of the season, demon Dean will do something awesome and almost sacrifice himself to save Sam and/or a bunch of other people, showing Sam how wrong he was about his brother and so Sam will then vow to do all he can to save demon Dean - too little, too late -  and then fail. Dean will save himself (or Castiel will do it), because that seems to me how these current showrunners seem to roll. If this is how it goes down, I will be entirely disillusioned and angry, because I'm more than tired of the cliched crappy brother Sam and sainted brother Dean thing the past two years seem to be trying to push on me and I'm still not buying. I prefer it when both brothers are flawed and make real mistakes - not just mistakes that turn out to have little to  no consequence - and both show love an affection for each other.

 

It wasn't that long ago in my opinion - as late as season 7 - that the show could do this. Why can't we have the dynamic of season 7 with a little less depression and a little more fun? That would completely work for me.

 

Edited to add: Wow that came out way more negative than I intended. So sorry about that. This show recently has made me nuts... and I loved it so much until season 8. It has turned me into a disillusioned viewer.

Edited by AwesomO4000
catrox14

catrox14

I can't really agree that Sam has been the crappy brother and Dean the sainted brother. Most things I've read elsewhere are that Dean drifted into dick status for letting an angel possess Sam and fucking a "born-again virgin".  I think Dean maintains some  sympathy because Jensen plays that Dean knows he fucked up in spite of admitting he fuck up again if it saved Sam.  But the remorse is evident so the audience is a bit more forgiving.

 

But others are done with Dean.They sympathize with Dean but they empathasize with Sam. Sam has gotten some ire because of the dumb things he said in the Purge, but I really think Dean is not considered a saint by any means. I also think there is some sympathy because Dean has been punished all season for that action, so it's not like he skated scot-free. I mean being murdered by Metatron and being turned into a demon by Crowley is quite a punishment.  MV as always.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

 

ETA: SueB...you bring up a good point about Crowley and whether he actually has a soul. If Crowley--or any demon--has no soul, then what's the point of all those deals that Crowley makes to condemn souls to Hell and then twisting them into demons? Isn't the point to get the soul and use it's power to run Hell? Isn't that why Abbadon was having her minion pull souls from folks? Wasn't that the whole point about souls and Heaven/Hell/Purgatory...oh, God, that restraint needs to be used again, me thinks. Sorry.

The more I think of it, the more I think I'm going to ignore that line in What's Up Tiger Mommy as LOLCanon.  One line which counters dozens of others is not enough IMO. 

 

 

I've forgotten who Suzy even was?

Chastity counselor (previously a porn-star).

 

the writers change their mind on a whim and what it means may not stick throughout the season

I think Carver has the big picture but doesn't control the details nor the path to get from Point A to Point B.  As said before, I think this will be the third act of the three act play and we'll see the three acts at the end but because the path was not obvious it'll look more contrived than it needed to be. JMO YMMV.

 

Demon!Dean - I expect him to have a soul. I don't expect him to be angst-ful (at least not at the start). I think the vampire story being complete in one episode is different than this arc. I expect Sam to ultimately be the one who saves him with Cas support.  That last may be wishful thinking but the setup is pretty obvious. 

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I can't really agree that Sam has been the crappy brother and Dean the sainted brother. Most things I've read elsewhere are that Dean drifted into dick status for letting an angel possess Sam and fucking a "born-again virgin".

 

For me that second thing especially is kinda odd. Suzy is a grown woman, and I thought Dean was trying to show her that going cold-turkey isn't really necessary in order to have confidence and live the life you want - somewhat ironic considering his own self-esteem issues... Dean's not so good at taking his own advice - and branding Dean a "dick" for that would seem to me to be saying that Suzy was just being manipulated by horn-dog Dean ... which to me takes away Suzy's agency, so I agree miles definitely vary there. Especially since I thought Dean was being painted in a positive light by that episode and didn't even consider another interpretation until I saw some comments on TWoP. Besides I still contend - just as I did on the "Provenance" episode thread - that Dean enjoys sex and he likes others to enjoy it, too. For me, what happened with Suzy in this episode is just another extension of that aspect of Dean, and in my opinion, I found nothing wrong with or negative about it.

 

When I'm talking about the crappy brother vs sainted brother dynamic, I guess I'm going mainly by what appears to me (and of course Miles Vary) to be author intent since the beginning of season 8. Looking at the storylines for season 8, except for one sort of anomaly - mostly based on Dean's unreliable narrator voice, though - concerning Dean's text message, things have more gone to the basic pattern. For example:

 

Sam's year after season 7 consisted of Sam not looking for - i.e. abandoning - both Dean and Kevin to live a relatively carefree life, doing what? helping people? finding and/or improving himself? Making sure other hunters knew about any potential cases he might come across? Continuing fighting the good fight by hunting like he said made him feel the most "normal" in season 7? Nope - going to farmers' markets and sleeping with another man's wife. Okay, so Sam didn't know that the guy was still alive, but after he found out... he slept with Amelia again anyway, so... (Not that I found any of that in character based on what I'd seen of Sam to that point, but I digress.)

 

Dean's year, in contrast, consisted of Dean valiantly fighting his way through purgatory to rescue Castiel, keeping his promise and being loyal to his friend Benny, and staying alive to fight his way back to a Sam who apparently didn't miss him that much.

 

In addition to the above, the writers seemed to go out of their way to have Sam not explain why he didn't look for Dean or Kevin, or when Sam did - sort of - explain, they went out of their way to make it be something never before heard of and that it sounded extremely self-centered and like Sam found it so unreasonable that Dean would be hurt. Also that Sam was annoyed that he supposedly had to leave his "normal life" because Dean was back... even though he'd already left Amelia before he even knew Dean was back (so it didn't even make any sense). And then when Dean was understandably hurt, the writers had Sam insist that Dean give up his friend and try to kill that friend behind Dean's back. Meanwhile Dean only complained when under the influence, did one small sneaky thing to save his friend - and potentially his brother - and despite his understandable hurt about everything Sam had done and said, supported Sam at every point of Sam doing the trials.

 

As for season 9 and the questionable choices Dean made - and I still contend the original possession wasn't my main problem with Dean's decisions... it was the subsequent lying afterwards that I objected to - the writers again went out of their way to show that Dean was doing it to save Sam and that Dean had almost always made decisions based on "saving Sam" (the boy's home episode). Meanwhile the writers had Sam say awful (and untrue) things, be unforgiving, and made sure that Sam's one potential moral high ground point - that he wouldn't put Dean in the same position and would let Dean go if Dean was ready to die (one of Sam's main objection points to what Dean did and something Sam had done for Dean in the past) was really a lie and that Sam would totally do the same thing to Dean... except oh, in addition, Sam didn't save Dean because he was too late (of course) and so Dean was doomed anyway.

 

The strange thing for me is that there were so many places in the above narrative where the writers could easily have put in one scene or even one sentence here or there to change this "crappy brother"/ "long-suffering, sacrificing brother" dynamic they had going and even it out more between them, but they chose to stay with that dynamic almost every time... so that's the main reason why I'm jaded and can only see this as a deliberate choice on their parts, and I would find it odd if after 2 years of it, they would suddenly switch gears.

 

I'd be pleasantly surprised if Sam is allowed to at least help save Dean, doesn't want to "hunt" Dean, is compassionate and understanding about demon Dean, or in any way at all is shown to support and love Dean. Even one of those things for me would be a best case scenario, because I'm a bit tired of the current Sam-trashing that I think this current dynamic they seem to be wallowing in is doing (i.e. revisiting season 4, except without any real reasoning behind Sam's behavior or attempt to explain it/ show Sam's point of view), but I'm not that optimistic that the current show runners care all that much about Sam's character. They have Dean and Castiel to play with, and that seems to be their main concern. Sam seems to be there mostly to support what's going on in the other characters' arcs. Again miles vary, and I hope I'm wrong...

 

So far I haven't been - At the beginning of season 8, I predicted that Benny was going to be good and that he would end up saving Sam, and I predicted that Gadreel would turn out to be good and have a big role in saving the world well before it happened in season 9.

 

This is one time I would so love to be wrong... please anybody give me some speculation that seems hopeful in any of these directions. I hate being a Gloomy Gus. (I've just been disappointed so many times already).

catrox14

catrox14

Oh. Man. Malleus Maleficarum was on TNT and I had completely forgotten about Ruby telling Dean how demons are made and I got so fucking sad thinking about demon!Dean :(.  But it also gave me a glimmer of hope for Dean.

 

RUBY:Back  when the plague was big.

DEAN:So all of 'em – every damn demon – they were all human once?

RUBYEvery one I've ever met.

DEAN:Well, they sure don't act like it.

RUBY:Most of them have forgotten what it means, or even that they were. That's what happens when you go to Hell, Dean. That's what Hell is – forgetting what you are.

DEAN:Philosophy lesson from a demon. I'll pass, thanks.

RUBY:It's not philosophy. It's not a metaphor. There's a real fire in the pit. Agonies you can't even imagine.

DEAN:No, I saw "Hellraiser". I get the gist.

RUBY: Actually they got that pretty close. Except for all the custom leather.

RUBY:The answer is yes, by the way.

DEAN :I'm sorry?

RUBY:Yes, the same thing will happen to you. It might take centuries, but sooner or later Hell will burn away your humanity. Every Hell-bound soul, every one, turns into something else. Turns you into us. So yeah. Yeah, you can count on it.

DEAN:There's no way of saving me from the Pit is there?

RUBY(sighs) No.

DEAN:Then why'd you tell Sam that you could?

RUBY:So he would talk to me. You Winchesters can be pretty bigoted. I needed something to help him get past the–

 

And so begins Ruby's grand scheme...

 

If Dean can remember his humanity then maybe he stands a chance.  Unless the MoC stripped it all away.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

S10 Press release:

 

#Supernatural teaser description for season 10:

"Season 10 begins with Sam’s frantic search for his missing brother, who is gone without a trace. The road to recovering the wayward Dean takes Sam down dark paths, with consequences that will shake the boys to their core. Meanwhile, Castiel has to pick up the pieces in the aftermath of Metatron’s campaign. With his grace failing and rogue angels still on the loose, Cass will face the ticking clock of his own mortality as all-new threats emerge to once again push all of our heroes to their limits."

Source:http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s2e5q1

 

So Dean disappears from the Bunker straight away. That tells me:

1) Dean most likely knows he's a demon

2) Sam does NOT know immediately he's a demon -- though I bet he finds out either by the end of the first episode or the second.

 

Other:

- rouge angels still on the loose....hmmm

kimrey

kimrey

I'm really wondering how legit this release is.  It sounds like the premiere description and it's way too early for that and it seems to be coming from random people, nothing really official.  So I'm a little skeptical.

 

It sounds good.  If there is a time jump, which it seems like there is if this is legit, I hope they have flashbacks to that night in the bunker.  I really wanted this season to start off right where 9 left off.

 

catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Yeah, I wonder how legit it is too.  Have the past teasers said things like "our heroes" ?

 

 I don't want there to be a time jump. I want it to pickup straightaway from the finale and I want it to be Sam starts looking for Dean right away. I don't want to see Sam's 1000 yard stare into a flashback. I had enough of that in s8. Bleh.  I need a confrontation between Crowley and Sam. My head!canon as "The Road So Far" everything leading up to Dean opening his eyes. And then we cut to Sam summoning Crowley,  Crowley will answer the summons because he must: 

 

Sam: "You son of a bitch. What did you did do to Dean? Fix this "

Crowley: "Moose, a miracle has happened." (call back to 9.23)

Sam: "What the fuck (screw censors) do you mean? He's dead! You lead him to the Blade. You fix it. "

Crowley: "Poor Moose, always slow on the uptake"

Sam: "Crowley, don't screw with me. I will kill you"

Crowley: "Calm down, Moose. Your brother isn't dead. He's a new animal(call back to Alastair in OtHoaP). You might say he's got a a whole new look in his eye".

Sam: "What the hell are you...." and then Sam starts to panic. He runs from the dungeon to Dean's room to find Dean gone. He races back to the dungeon only to find Crowley is gone too, because Dean freed him from the Devil's Trap. Sam, stands there alone hands on his head, panic on his face, tears in his eyes(call back to s5 when Samifer disappears leaving Dean alone).

 

Fade to opening title. "Supernatural" with the E as a black demon eye and shooting out from flames. No angel wings.

 

And then we start the hunt for Dean.

Edited by catrox14
ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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