Spoilers With Speculation

[AwesomO4000]

I don't remember the Khan worm.  Can you refresh me?

 

I can. I hope SueB doesn't mind. The Khan worm was the thing that Eve created in "And Then There Were None." It was why Rufus got dead : ( , but that's what Dean called it in the episode - a Khan worm... so we know Dean probably watched all of the Star Trek series of movies (since he also referenced Star Trek IV in "Fronteirland")

 

edited: or as SueB already did faster and better.

Edited February 26, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

Ahhh, thanks @SueB and @AwesomO4000. I knew it was related to Star Trek's Khan. And I just rewatched that movie a couple of weeks ago. Bah . Boo me :(.  

 

Maybe Ty is being coy and was sitting in a bar with Jensen :)  

Edited February 26, 2015 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I really hated that episode, especially the decision that the best way to make sure the tension between Bobby, Dean, and Sam was resolved was for Rufus to be murdered, because that way they could bond over emo manpain. Then there was the totally pointless murder of Gwen Campbell, just because the show had no other way to acknowledge what a huge miserable waste of the time Glowering Campbell Hour had been. 

 

I guess I could say at least this episode won't be any worse, as there are no characters left to kill anyway. 

[SueB]

I guess I could say at least this episode won't be any worse, as there are no characters left to kill anyway.

Bite your tongue! Jodi, Charlie, Donna, Alex, Garth, Mrs. Tran! But Cole seems more likely. I wonder if Khan worms like livers?

[catrox14]

So, here are the episode titles for the rest of season......MEEP

 

Supernatural    Season 10    Spoilers   

10x15    The Things They Carried 

10x16    Paint it Black   

10x17    Inside Man 

10x18    Book of Damned 

10x19    The Werther Project   

10x20    Angel Heart   

10x21    Dark Dynasty   

10x22    The Prisoner   

10x23    Brother's Keeper

Edited February 28, 2015 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

That last title makes me shudder.

[catrox14]

That last title makes me shudder.

 

My heart sank and it was a gut punch.

[AwesomO4000]

For me it's more the last two in combination.

[Wynne88]

They're back to Sam keeping secrets?  I have really enjoyed how honest Dean has been since being cured of demon-ness.  I guess there haven't been as many examples of Sam being honest, but I figured that was mostly because he hasn't really done anything since about the 3rd episode.  I wish they wouldn't use secrets to manufacture distrust and angst. 

 

I had a hard time taking the khan worm seriously.  Partly because it was small and gross, and partly because I found it difficult to believe that it could slither up somebody's torso and into their ear without them feeling it and swatting it away.  Also, I really hated that they killed off Rufus who was one of my favorite side characters.  He and Bobby would have made a great spin off. 

[Demented Daisy]

From the lyrics to Paint It Black:

 

I look inside myself and see my heart is black

 

 

 

From imdb:

 

Angel Heart -- Harry Angel is a private investigator. He is hired by a man who calls himself Louis Cyphre to track down a singer called Johnny Favorite. But the investigation takes an unexpected and somber turn.

 

The Prisoner -- After resigning, a secret agent is abducted and taken to what looks like an idyllic village, but is really a bizarre prison. His warders demand information. He gives them nothing, but only tries to escape.

 

*sigh*

Edited February 28, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[rue721]

"The Prisoner" is also an Iron Maiden song (one of their pretty big ones, I think? It's from their 1982 album).

 

 

The lyrics actually seem pretty upbeat, to me.

 

I'm on the run, I kill to eat
I'm starving now, feelin' dead on my feet
Goin' all the way, I'm nature's beast
Do what I want and do as I please

 

Run, fight to breathe, it's tough
Now you see me, now you don't
Break the walls I'm comin' out

 

Not a prisoner, I'm a free man

And my blood is my own now
Don't care where the past went
I know where I'm going... out!

 

If you kill me, it's self defense
But if I kill you then I call it vengeance
Spit in your eye I will defy

You'll be afraid when I call out your name

 

Run, fight to breathe, it's gonna be tough
Now you see me and now you don't
Break the walls I'm comin' out

 

Not a prisoner, I'm a free man
And my blood is my own now
Don't care where the past went
I know where I'm going

 

I'm not a number, I'm a free man
Live my life where I want to
You'd better scratch me from your black book
'Cos I'll run rings around you

 

Not a prisoner, I'm a free man
And my blood is my own now
Don't care where the past went
I know where I'm going

[catrox14]

 

Angel Heart -- Harry Angel is a private investigator. He is hired by a man who calls himself Louis Cyphre to track down a singer called Johnny Favorite. But the investigation takes an unexpected and somber turn.

 

You can't have an investigator named Harry Angel and it not be well, "Angel".   I'm irrationally annoyed by this character's name

[rue721]

My fingers are crossed that The Werther Project is going to be about a really inventive idea involving Werther's Originals.

[catrox14]

LOL Rue...I had the same thought

[trxr4kids]

My fingers are crossed that The Werther Project is going to be about a really inventive idea involving Werther's Originals.

Tired of plain old angels that last a really, really long time, try our new butterscotch flavor!

[DittyDotDot]

The Prisoner -- After resigning, a secret agent is abducted and taken to what looks like an idyllic village, but is really a bizarre prison. His warders demand information. He gives them nothing, but only tries to escape.

 

When I first saw the title, I was hoping they weren't going there. Here's to hoping it has more to do with the song.

Edited February 28, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I can't figure out why that plot is even in an episode of SPN. unless the prisoner is rogue demon and the prison issomething Crowley created.

[Demented Daisy]

Can we get a link, catrox?

[catrox14]

Can we get a link, catrox?

 

A link to what? Sorry?

[Demented Daisy]

The episode titles for the rest of the season.

[mertensia]

Angel Heart came out in 1986 or so; way before Angel the vampire was around. Angel Heart's Louis Cyphre turned out to be Lucifer.

[Demented Daisy]

Aww, I was going to see if anyone figured it out who hadn't seen the movie.  My parents loved it, so when I saw it in the episode title list, I knew immediately what they were referencing.  I concede I could be wrong, though.

 

Say the name aloud and it's pretty obvious who he is, though.  ;-)

[SueB]

Looking at the titles, I (of course) immediately begin speculating.  So... random thoughts about the titles and upcoming stories. Titles on Supernatural, in general, do not necessarily reflect the source of the title (i.e. they will use the title in a more literal sense than whatever it is referencing).  Also, titles usually have a multiple threads in the same episode. 

 

Note: Supporting data of who is writing what is from http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/112141852198/season-10-spoiler-sheet

10x15    The Things They Carried - Cole MOTW it seems, but it's interesting to note that it seems part 2 of something ('The Things We Left Behind' being part 1).  If Claire was the story of trauma after being "left behind" by TFW, perhaps Cole's is the story of the trauma he carried after being exposed to the world.  IDK. But it's also important to note that Dean went Stabby McStabberson at the end of that episode.
10x16    Paint it Black - THIS freaked me out because the Rolling Stones song is very dark. "It" in this case could be anything from Deans' eyes or soul to something non-Dean related.  But since it's a Buckner-Lemming episode, it sure has a lot of potential for mytharc.  Seems early to me but if it is... I wonder if Dean takes off at the end (see Inside Man spec)
10x17    Inside Man - This seems to be Metatron as it's his episode. Also, with a Sam/Cas buddy story (based on pics), I think they may be looking for Dean.  Andrew Dabb as the writer is a good thing.  Also, there was a BTS photo of Rowena walking down an alley, bags in hand and looking dejected.  My spec: I think Rowena does something to get Dean. Something magic-y. Maybe she and Dean are the B-plot.  IDK, but if you look at my spec on the finale, I think they are going to plant seeds here. 

10x18    Book of Damned - Charlie's back. Robbie's writing it  This is the book she went to Italy for.

10x19    The Werther Project  - no idea. Guessing last MOTW only because it seems like the end of this season seems mytharc heavy based on tweets from Jim Micheals, Robbie Thompson, and Bobo Berens. No ACTUAL spoilers given by these guys but they've been peeing their pants in excitement over the back end of the season. 

---- softer from here on out --
10x20    Angel Heart - Maybe they'll deal with Cas to get him at least a booster shot of grace.
10x21    Dark Dynasty  - I wonder if this where they finally deal with the Grand Coven.  I think it'll set up the finale. 

10x22    The Prisoner  - Maybe Dean is on lockdown, or they get a prisoner who they interrogate and get MoC data.  
10x23    Brother's Keeper - Here's my BIG spec: I think Sam going witchy and literally put the kabosh on Dean's activity with a spell.  This crack-spec is based on the witchy nature of the season (and Dean was temporarily cured by de-aging).  So Sam literally become's Dean's keeper and takes away his free will.  Which would be so anti-Sam as to cause massive outrage. But it would be painful too.  

 

ETA: The stuff about Rowena and Dean.

Edited March 1, 2015 by SueB

[oliverwendell]

Great spec, SueB.  In prior years (dating back to On the Head of a Pin) the 16th episode of the season traditionally is a mytharc one, which, combined with the Ross-Leming writing duo, argues pretty strongly that Paint it Black is going to be mytharc.  And that title is way scary.

 

There was a recent spoiler about how they are going introduce a new Big Bad later this year, and my guess is it's the leader of the Grand Coven.  That would further support your spec that the solution to Dean's MOC problem is going to be witchcraft, and given the spoiler that Sam does something to save Dean that kicks off a separate story for him, I think you may be onto something with the idea of Sam doing something witchy.  Or making some sort of a deal with a witch.

 

Is it wrong that I'm feeling sad that Dean will probably be "cured" of the MOC by the end of the season?  It's been such a satisfying arc for his character, and for the character of Sam as well, that I'm going to be sorry to see it go. 

[catrox14]

At this point, I think/hope the MoC lasts until the end of the show.  I think it gives them a way to bring back Michael and Lucifer which ties into Cain and Abel. I don't see how they can introduce Cain and the idea of killing Sam and letting it end without Abel.  Maybe the new Big Bad will actually be Abel or it's going to really be Cain, because (fingers crossed) Cain isn't dead. 

 

I'm thinking that maybe the Gavin dangling plot thread comes back. Possibly time reset? 

Edited March 1, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

I just need Dean to find hope. In something. I'd take him supporting the Kansas Jayhawks (college basketball) or the Royals (hey, someday they'll be back on top).

Dean sees nothing but dark and darker. But it wouldn't be Supernatural if it didn't have a heart-rending season finale. So.... Maybe one of these eps will have a skosh of happiness.

[catrox14]

LOL Hey now! The Royals made it to the World Series in 2014. 

[SueB]

Doh!  That's right.  I must confess, last fall is a blur and I'm suffering from the stomach flu today...

[oliverwendell]

They lost to my beloved SF Giants!!  Sorry, Royals fans!

 

On topic:  I agree that Dean needs to see some light at the end of the tunnel.  Bleak as his world view always has been, he used to be able to find pleasure in the smaller things of life, and lately he's lost even that simple coping mechanism.  I also hope he stops drinking so much.  

 

Can someone help me remember who Gavin is?

[SueB]

 

Can someone help me remember who Gavin is?

Crowley's son.  Abaddon went back in time using Men of Letter's knowledge in "King of the Damned".  Sam and Dean were going to return him to his timeline and blood-infected Crowley whisked him away.

So while Abaddon created the temporal paradox in the first place (she killed someone while there), Crowley added to it.  

[SueB]

THIS will probably merge with my previous post.  If it does, then this is ADDITIONAL, unrelated to Gavin, thinking:

 

I rewatched the end of The Executioner's Song. And it really struck me that Dean worked hard to remove Crowley from their lives.  While that's perfectly normal, I think he actually did it because he wants to stop himself from killing Crowley.  Not because he likes the guy but because Cain said Crowley would be first.  So he's trying to prevent 'destiny' as defined by Cain.  Again.  

 

Now IF this is correct, "Paint It Black" may be where he kills Crowley.  I don't know if it's permanent or not, but what better way to make it seem like Cas and Sam are in trouble?  

 

Do we have ANY spoilers beyond "Paint It Black" that provide evidence that Mark is filming in Vancouver?  His twitter has him at Zuma Beach this weekend with his girl, but they all seem to go home now on the non-convention weekends.  Seriously, I'm keeping my eye out for indications.  Because they've already filmed "Paint It Black".

 

So IF he was to kill Crowley, or THINK he did, I can totally see Dean literally running away from Sam and Cas.  They don't know what Cain said (I'm pretty sure Dean is keeping that bit to himself).  Adding up the indications and warnings for this direction:

- We have reports of Rowena in later episodes but not Crowley

- It sure LOOKS like Sam and Cas are looking for Dean

- They have some isolated cabin in the woods that they built (I believe) for filming.  That's a commitment.

 

Now I'm not 100% that Crowley will actually die. First off, it's Crowley.  Second, after 10 years I'm fairly certain that J2 really LIKES having two other regulars to take the pressure off their filming schedule.  With only Cas around, that still helps but then Cas would need to be away from the boys.  That hasn't been all that well received.  IDK...I just think it's possible we get a fake out.  I saw on Tumblr a comment that SOMEONE at a Misha M&G (a while back) reported that Misha said he and Mark were contracted for S10 & S11.  Now they may have done that in order to secure both actors and frankly, pay to keep them through pilot season (which is now) for next year.  It'd probably be worth it to ensure they had options for S11 and their agents may have insisted on two year deals.  IDK.  I just know we've got conflicting data for a permanent death.  

 

So.. that was my ah-ha moment tonight.  Of course, half of you may already have been there.  But just to recap:

- I think Dean pushed Crowley away to avoid setting up the chain of events where he first kills Crowley, then Cas, then Sam.

- I think Dean might kill Crowley (or think he did) in "Paint It Black"

- I think Dean runs away from Sam and Cas after killing Crowley

 

Now I'm hanging out here on a tiny limb with my rear-end flapping in the breeze with this spec.  I won't be surprised if I'm completely wrong (I just think Crowley is too big a fish to discard in EP 16), but I thought I'd share cause it suddenly seems obvious to me.

[catrox14]

Dean running away fulfills the common lore of Cain roaming the earth alone.

[rue721]

SueB, your spec about something happening to Crowley in Paint It Black would make sense in terms of the photos of Rowena looking dejected in an alley in the next episode, Inside Man.

 

I wonder if Crowley isn't going to get killed, if he's going to go "undercover" somehow? Or...maybe the "inside man" refers to the man inside the demon? As in, whatever humanity Crowley still has within him? My spec from the beginning of the season is that Crowley is going to end up cured. He said in S8 that he cared about being loved and forgiven and I actually think he's still on that trajectory.

 

Or I guess Dean might turn demon and then it could be the humanity inside of him but...that seems a little too whip-lash-y somehow.

 

Imo Cain's prophesy is probably true, but in metaphorical rather than literal terms, so I'm not sure that Crowley will be *literally* killed before they move on to the next part of the prophesy (killing Cas).

 

The best way to keep Dean from killing Crowley, Cas, or Sam is for someone else to kill them first. But I doubt that's the route they'll go down, lol.

[catrox14]

I'm not going to leave Sam out of possibly being the one that is in the middle of Painting It Black or being the Inside Man.  Carver said Sam is going to go on his own journey. The only other option I can think of for Sam besides going dark side again because he becomes so desperate to save Dean . What if Sam removes himself from the Lair so that he is not a target for Dean? 

 

I've never seen Sam so utterly undone by Dean's dilemma. He looked terrified for the both of them. And I thought Sam also had a panicked look that he has no idea how to help Dean.

[rue721]

For Sam's journey, what about finishing the Trials? I know it's been a really long time, but now that Sam has cured a demon (Dean), he's done everything except read the last curse/blessing/whatever. Closing up Hell would also be really convenient if he wants to keep his sometimes-demon brother out of it, I would think?

 

Semi-crack!spec:  I think that ~something~ will happen with Crowley that means that someone else becomes King of Hell (maybe Rowena?!) and just as that person is acting triumphant, Sam gets the Gates of Hell closed.

 

I wonder if Sam and/or Dean will go down into Hell later this season. I really hope that they do. But I have no idea when that might happen, and since there hasn't even been a whisper of Lucifer reappearing, I kind of doubt it.

[catrox14]

But if Sam finishes the trials won't he drop dead?  OHHHH maybe that's why he wouldn't use his own blood.....

[rue721]

But if Sam finishes the trials won't he drop dead?  OHHHH maybe that's why he wouldn't use his own blood.....

 

Do you think that Sam didn't use his own blood because he was scared of dropping dead by finishing the third trial?

 

Ok, this is completely crack!spec. But what if Sam *does* decide to close the Gates of Hell by finishing curing Crowley. But Dean is the one who becomes King of Hell once Crowley is cured. So he becomes King just as the Gates close, trapping him inside?

[SueB]

Dear rue, nooooooooooooooooooo. I just couldn't stand that so I'm going to la la la my way past that.

I think finishing the trials is definitely a specter looming over the show.

It occurred to me that Dean wouldn't kill Crowley on purpose (because he would want to avoid Cain's prediction), but I could see Rowena going after Dean and Crowley getting killed by Dean in the crossfire. Dean doesn't have the First Blade but an angel blade would do the trick. Regardless of weapon used, they've hidden from TFW that Rowena is Crowley's mom. If Dean is about to kill Rowena, I could see Crowley trying to stop it and getting killed accidentally. Or maybe he steps between Dean and Rowena and takes the fatal blow.

Edited March 2, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

I could see Crowley actually saving Dean from Rowena more than him saving Rowena from Dean. He's attached to Dean. He admires Dean a bit I think, and he knows Dean is  his biggest ally when they time is right. Sam and/or Cas being threatened will be the reason Dean kills Crowley.  A threat to either of them by Rowena or Crowley will bring the wrath of Dean on their heads. 

 

I don't see how the trials comes back into play when it will possibly kill Sam for him to complete the trials. Although I really do love your scheme Rue for all it's sick dark glory.

 

I was seeing some spec that the series could end with Dean killing Sam and Cas who end up in heaven and Dean ends up in Hell.  I could accept that as long as Dean destroys Hell in the process, but for Dean to spend eternity in Hell for real? NOPE.

[oliverwendell]

SueB, I think your spec above is dead on.  I think Dean is going to kill Crowley in Paint it Black, and then run from the bunker to get himself away from Cas and Sam. But I'm going to go further.  I think he's going to kill Cas in Angel Heart.  Brothers Keeper will involve him almost killing Sam, but pulling himself back from the brink, and Sam doing something drastic to save him that will reverberate into Season 11.  And I think Season 11 will be the last season, and it will be just Dean and Sam, together alone, coming full circle from Season 1.

 

AUGH!!!  I have just depressed myself so wretchedly that I need to get a Diet Coke.  Pardon me.  *Races to kitchen, pops tab*

 

Now, for how Dean kills Crowley:  I think SueB is right that Dean purposefully told Crowley about his two deceptions because he knew it would drive a wedge between them, thereby keeping Crowley away and staving off Cain's prophecy.  But I don't think Dean will accidentally kill Crowley (while trying to kill Rowena or otherwise) because Cain said "you will have your reason" for killing him.  That sounds deliberate to me.  And I will be very sad, because I have enjoyed the Crowley of these latter seasons, tainted (in his view) by humanity, and loving Dean Winchester in his warped, demony way.

 

But when (if? can I say if, just for my own sanity?) Dean kills Cas, that is going to RUIN me.  I mean, good God.  How does Dean survive that? Plus:  Cas dying?  At the hand of the human he has put above all else for so long?  How do I survive that?  The only way I could possibly be even a little bit okay with it is if there is enough time before Cas dies for him to tell Dean he forgives him and for Dean to tell Cas he loves him.  (Not in a shippy way.  I'm not a Destieler.  I just adore their deep, unique-in-human-and-celestial-history bond and want to see it validated in the end.)

 

Somebody, please disagree with me and convince me I'm wrong.  But here's one last counterargument from me:  doesn't Cain's little "Chekhov prophecy" have to play out to at least some degree?  And if it does, doesn't it need to include killing Cas? Because Dean killing only Crowley could be handwaved as not pre-ordained by the prophecy at all but as bound to happen sooner or later, prophecy or no, while Dean killing Cas can only be the result of the Mark and how it's condemned him to live Cain's life in reverse.

Edited March 2, 2015 by fourteenwords

[Aeryn13]

I`d hate for those that stupid trial storyline to come back which would IMO go hand in hand with Dean`s arc swiftly dropped to bring him back to place as butler and nanny. God, I hated the second half of Season 8 so very much so any reminders of that make my eyes bleed.

 

What I`m waiting for is Dean`s redemption storyline. He has his dark arc right now, afterwards his rising up should take place. The other characters got it so he should too. I`m just weary because if Sam starts a dark arc by Season`s end, Dean`s will be dropped and his shot at redemption gone. Or, and I don`t know if that isn`t worse, his entire "redemption" will be all about Sam. Which was his damn problem in the first place. I know I`m harping on the world-saving but since they manage to downplay Dean`s big victories and/or not play them as epic world-saving, this bugs me. I want the epicness for me, not AGAIN simply standing beside the guy who gets the epicness. 

[Wynne88]

Dean's arc has been going on for over a year now. If they dropped it tomorrow, I still wouldn't regard it as swift.

I think the storylines laid out above make more sense than bringing the trials into it again. Sounds interesting, but I do wish some storylne would lend itself to Sam getting to kill the big bad. Sadly that role is apparently reserved always and forever for Dean.

[catrox14]

We saw Dean and Sam subvert destiny in s5 with their own choices.   I think it could go two ways.  I would be surprised if they go all the way with Dean and Sam destiny's being like Cain says it will be.   My crack theories are

 

 What if Crowley kidnaps Sam and tortures him and compels Dean to his side to save Sam's life.Dean has to serve himself up to Crowley to save Sam. Dean does so but of course he's resurrected as demon!Dean which Crowley planned on so he can use him to defeat Rowena who is trying to take over Hell a since she's decided that Crowley is a pussy now and maybe she wants to free Lucifer from the cage.  Demon!Dean is fine with taking out Rowena and her witches because he can. 

 

Crowley honors his deal to spare Sam and Sam and Cas devise a plan to undemon!Dean again, but Dean is too powerful now with Cain being dead it's increased his powers.  Cas attempts to smite demon!Dean but he fails and demon!Dean kills Cas. :(:(

 

Crowley loses control of demon!Dean again and he goes to Sam and makes a deal to help Sam save demon! Dean.  The season finale is Crowley and Sam working together to save Dean.  And somehow demon!Dean, Crowley and Sam all end up in Hell facing Lucifer. 

[Aeryn13]

 

Dean's arc has been going on for over a year now. If they dropped it tomorrow, I still wouldn't regard it as swift.

 

They dropped a two year arc for Dean in the garbage in the Season 5 Finale and that was still swift to me. Sam had a five year arc so Dean getting one year at this point isn`t an embarassment of riches to me. 

 

Sam killed Lilith and defeated Lucifer. Alistair was no small baddie either. 

[catrox14]

Dean's arc has been going on for over a year now. If they dropped it tomorrow, I still wouldn't regard it as swift.

I think the storylines laid out above make more sense than bringing the trials into it again. Sounds interesting, but I do wish some storylne would lend itself to Sam getting to kill the big bad. Sadly that role is apparently reserved always and forever for Dean.

 

That's not entirely true of Dean. He's killed more bads than Sam but Sam killed Lilith and Alastair and he defeated Lucifer and Michael by getting them both into the cage. To me getting Lucifer and Michael into the cage is about the biggest win either brother has had. 

[Rivka]

Re: the last episode title:

 

 

And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him. 9 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Where is Abel your brother?" And he said, "I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?" 10 He said, "What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to Me from the ground.…

 

If Dean doesn't attempt seriously to kill Sam in the last episode of the season, I'll be shocked. Crowley and Cas's deaths, they've laid the breadcrumbs for, although whether those stick, who knows?

[SueB]

I have to say Areyn, I think it's misaligned expectations for S10 to end with a world-saving consequence. If you think about it, between killing Abbadon and killing Cain, Dean has stopped two characters with large-scale agendas. Abbadon's soul harvesting plan was a threat to humanity. And Cain was planning on culling 10% of the population. But if those are not big enough 'saves', then I don't see anyone but Dean himself being a world-class threat. The grand coven has been around for centuries. If they are policing Rowena for being too dangerous, the I don't see a world domination scheme.

In short, I don't see the Apocalypse Part2. So, what kind of world-saving scenario do you think could happen?

As for Rowena bringing up Lucifer, I think she knows better. She may be able to kill a demon with her hex bag, but she needs Crowley's demonic powers to keep the demons in line. I don't think she can hold her own against more than one stunt-demon at a time.

I do think that whatever goes down with Crowley, somehow his death will ultimately be tied to some scheme of Rowena's.

And I refuse to speculate on Cas dying because I'm in total denial of that as a potential. Just NOPEVILLE for me.

Edited March 2, 2015 by SueB

[Wynterwolf]

LOL.  I think I spend so much time in Nopeville for this show, that I practically live there.  The ep titles have me equal parts terrified and excited.  

[AwesomO4000]

I know this is a tried argument, so I'll keep this brief and then drop it...

They dropped a two year arc for Dean in the garbage in the Season 5 Finale and that was still swift to me. Sam had a five year arc so Dean getting one year at this point isn`t an embarassment of riches to me. 

 

I keep seeing this, but I still don't agree with it. There was a five-year story, but it was broken up into multiple parts / arcs and it wasn't only connected to Sam. The first part of the arc was concluded by Dean and John - which makes sense based on the story / arc. Sam's "story" in that first two-year arc was that he died (i.e. he was defeated). His main role there was as a catalyst for Dean's deal - that's it until later. John and Dean together concluded that first chapter of the arc by defeating the thing that killed Mary and destroyed their lives ("That was for our mom."). Sam, by the fact that he didn't remember Mary, was not a part of that arc of the story. He was "chosen" by Azazel, but his part in that part of the arc was suppressed for Dean and John's conclusion to their arcs. Sam's part in the story would be delayed until later. We had Sam's psychic kids storyline, but we also had John's revenge storyline and Dean's growing up, grief over John, and deal storylines - all of which were connected just as much with the YED arc, just in a different way. Season 3 had only as much to do with Sam's "powers" in that they didn't come into play at all in saving Dean and Ruby was introduced. Dean's fate/arc there was sealed just as much by Azazel - because Azazel directly contributed to Dean making the deal - as Sam's arc. Dean was "chosen" as the one to break the first seal, but his part in that arc was suppressed a bit (I disagree that Dean played no part at all) for Sam's delayed arc to conclude.

 

So Sam's chosenness in season 2 played little to no part in the ending of the Azazel arc, and Dean's chosenness in season 4 played a smaller role in the conclusion of the Lucifer arc. The going to hell arc was separate and Lilith was a red herring (i.e. a part of the Lucifer arc), so season 3 was sort of a crossover season for the previous and next two seasons with an extra little arc thrown in.

 

So for me I don't agree with the "Sam's defeating Lucifer arc was 5 seasons long" argument. It just didn't play out that way at all in my opinion. The first two years was all about Azazel (not even a peep about Lucifer) with Sam, Dean and John being involved with him in differing ways,

 

Sam killed Lilith and defeated Lucifer. Alistair was no small baddie either.

 

Lilith wasn't a win - she was a defeat. And Sam killed her only because Lilith wanted him to. I do agree Alistair counts as a baddie. Sam also arguably had Famine. And maybe Chronos - though he wasn't mytharc related.

 

That's not entirely true of Dean. He's killed more bads than Sam but Sam killed Lilith and Alastair and he defeated Lucifer and Michael by getting them both into the cage. To me getting Lucifer and Michael into the cage is about the biggest win either brother has had. 

 

I think that Azazel ranks pretty high. And there was Zachariah, Eve, Dick Roman, Abaddon, and now Cain *. All of which (accept for Azazel) were solo Dean kills and all of which had world-shattering plans. That's not even including smaller solo kills of mythic people like the Whore of Babylon and the Phoenix (though they were mytharc relayed as well). They shared killing Ruby though Dean dealt the killing blow and had the knife.

 

So while I agree that Lucifer and Michael were arguably the biggest fish, if you piled all of Dean's big, world-saving kills on the scale, I think they would equal out in the end. I just don't see any need for Dean to have one more huge "win" to be equal to Sam. He's got plenty of world-saving to his name. Now, I just want something that they are both involved in - together.

 

* This one was similar to Lilith in that Cain allowed the death, and as with Sam was the only one who could kill Lilith, Dean was the only one who could kill Cain. The question for me is: is killing Cain a defeat or a win? Which brings me to the speculation...

 

 

Now the question is, just how parallel to Lilith is Cain? Like Sam killing Lilith, will Dean killing Cain start off some catastrophic consequence? Did Cain really just want to be dead and done, or was he planning on Dean's killing him starting off something bigger and worse? And now will Dean's good intentions to stop Cain end as badly as Sam's good intentions to stop Lilith?

 

I'm kind of worried about the answers to these questions, because I'm kind of leaning towards it being a bad thing that Dean killed Cain.

Edited March 2, 2015 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

I have to say Areyn, I think it's misaligned expectations for S10 to end with a world-saving consequence. If you think about it, between killing Abbadon and killing Cain, Dean has stopped two characters with large-scale agendas.

 

I know it`s not gonna happen. Because it`s Dean and I still fully believe he is a "whatever, next" character for Carver. When asked about Dean`s role during the latter half of Season 8, he was all "whatever, next" about the character whereas when asked this Season about Sam`s arc, he rushes to assure fans that Sam will have a big story coming up. So, nope, Dean is not getting the big story. But I also worry, his story will be dropped and it will be flipped all around so that he revolves around Sam again, Been there, done that, got a couple of very ugly T-shirts.

 

And the problem with the wins he did have? None of them was made to look particularly epic. Even when they probably could have been. They went out of their way to make the defeat of Dick Roman seem boring and lame and the Leviathan-"apocalypse" was wishy-washy as a threat. Eve, buried in the Season and not made a big deal of as a threat. Ditto for Abaddon. Cain was somewhat epic but buried within the Season and the "a tenth of the population could die" was buried somewhere in the dialogue. 

 

Compared to the flashing neon signs of the Season 5 Finale, it eclipses everything else by ten-thousand miles. Azazel was the only epic-looking moment in a Season Finale that Dean got in terms of the big moment and even that doesn`t compare. If I waited for something no other character has gotten before, I could shrug it off but as it is, I can`t lie how disappointed I am.

 

And if they go the predictable route of fulfilling Cain`s "prophecy" aka Dean kills Crowley - I wouldn`t particularly care - then kills Cas - I would care about that and the hate the character receieves for it and then of course goes after Sam so Sam has to do the big heroic save, then goes dark and then probably does get a world-saving redemption. Meanwhile, Dean`s character got destroyed and gets nothing to show for it. No thanks.