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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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kimrey

kimrey

(edited)

They finished the Cain episode (14) early last week and then started 15.  So, two different episodes.

 

Edit:  Just went back to twitter to check some stuff to make sure.

 

They were filming 14 for about a week before they went on break.  Tim Omundson tweeted about flying out to Vancouver.  Then last week he tweeted about heading back there again to play Cain and then on the 7th he tweeted about his last day of filming.

 

Travis Aaron Wade was seen filming with Jared and Jensen on the 8th and tweeted about arriving to work.

 

Putting it all together, 14 (the Cain episode) finished on the 7th, they started 15 (Cole episode) on the 8th and will likely be filming that one all this week.

 

As far as spoilers for 15, I've seen pictures of Jared and Jensen on set with Travis wearing suits (at least Sam and Dean are).  There is also a picture of the three of them riding in the impala.

Edited by kimrey
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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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kimrey

kimrey

I don't mind Cole.  I'm looking forward to seeing where they go with him.  I just hope everyone's not all good with each other.  Let's not forget the Cole literally tortured Sam.  I don't see Dean being cool with that, if Sam told him exactly what happened.  I hope there's some kind of twist.  I'd rather see Cole as a villain than an ally.

 

Looks like we will be getting a fancy new promo on Thursday!

https://twitter.com/Chico6/status/555197910275473408

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I'm rather indifferent to Cole--I just really don't care about him one way or the other. I think he's boring, but that's kinda par for the course with me and new characters on this show lately. They really don't feel like fully realized people that would have any life away from Sam or Dean and I really don't care or wonder about them when they're off screen like I used to with some of the characters on this show. I still think they probably were thinking spin-off when they introduced Cole, but since he hasn't been all that well received I now wonder if they'll just kill him off. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

Thanks for the scheduling updates kimery. I love to know some of this stuff, but can't quite force myself to get on twitter yet, so I appreciate you doing the heavy lifting for me. ;)

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

(edited)

I have a feeling if we're seeing more of him it may just be to kill him, unless they're hoping for a spinoff (which with the CW's packed schedule doesn't seem likely).

 

According to one article I read (sorry, I'll try to find it here in a sec), it sounds like they're thinking about starting some summer series, since Under the Dome has done so well.  Maybe that's where they're thinking of trying a limited spin-off run.

 

http://deadline.com/2015/01/the-flash-jane-the-virgin-supernatural-vampire-diaries-arrow-renewed-cw-1201347170/

 

“Each of these series have helped define what The CW is today, a network that is home to smart, provocative, quality programming, targeting a savvy adult audience,” Pedowitz said. “By picking up these shows now, our executive producers can start planning next season’s storylines, and rolling these shows out throughout next season guarantees. The CW will have more proven original series for our fall, midseason and summer 2016 line-ups.”

 

Edited by Demented Daisy
Wynne88

Wynne88

Let's not forget the Cole literally tortured Sam.  I don't see Dean being cool with that, if Sam told him exactly what happened.

 

Dean got over the fact that Castiel broke Sam's mind and nearly killed him without much problem.  Of course, it probably helped that Sam himself didn't seem to hold a grudge (which I thought was weird, but whatever).  If Sam is okay with Cole, I doubt Dean will fuss.

catrox14

catrox14

I don't think Dean has anything to apologize to Cole about. Dean protected Cole as a child from the monster Dad which demon Dean didn't really care about. Regular Dean would never have left Sam to die. The beating he gave Cole as a demon was probably not much worse than what regular Dean could have done. I still feel like what he told Cole at the end of girls was more for Sam than anyone. Him saying he beat a good man for no reason other than he felt like was a load of crap because IMO Dean had every reason to maim/kill Cole for kidnapping and torturing Sam and trying to kill Dean.

So to me on no level do either Sam or Dean have any reason to feel bad for Cole or be buddies with him.

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

I don`t mind the character. His exit in the last episode he was in was pretty abrupt so if they have an idea for him - does he suddenly turn into the sorry-we-have-no-idea-what-kind-of-monster-you-are monster? - I`m fine with it. What I just can`t get over is that he is supposed to be ten years or so younger than Dean. That is so utterly ridiculous. Either match casting to your backstory or mold your backstory to fit your casting. One or the other.

 

This gives me memories of teenage!Mordred telling Arthur he "saved his life many years ago" back on Merlin. By the fact that Mordred had grown up in those years, it was an accurate statement whereas by the looks of Arthur, it could have been "you saved my life many minutes ago."   

catrox14

catrox14

Sneak Peek.

https://www.facebook.com/Supernatural

Oh Dean :(. Did you really go too far? Eh, I really didn't think so. I guess I'm a horrible person because I like to think regular!Dean would have killed him anyway for doing what he did.

Sam and Cas are pretty well pissing me off..um guys...Randy did more than use her! He sold her to a rapist and murderer! WTF. Oh just I can't with Cas here. Also, Sam, if you had stayed behind and made sure Dean was okay, he might not have killed all those fucking POS "human beings" who were all ready and willing to buy and sell a teenage girl into a life of rape.

I'm also really impressed with Jensen in that in one phrase "Well the BURN IT OFF" his voice just destroyed me with his desperation and fear.

SueB

SueB

  • Author

Excellent scene.  I'm with Dean on this one.  He went too far. And I'm glad he's ready to aggressively pursue it's removal.  I'm going to guess, since Cas brought up the "missing" demon tablet that this may be the connection to Metatron.  Metatron may either know HOW to get rid of it (which I would trust) or he likely knows where the demon tablet is.

 

Is it only me or is the solution obvious?  Get the ghost of Kevin Tran to reconstitute the Angel tablet, find the Demon Tablet and let Kevin read that.  

 

We need Kevin Tran.  Seriously.  

catrox14

catrox14

Here's the thing with Dean saying he went too far. This is Dean under the influence of the MoC. Did he really think he could control it? If he really believes he went too far, does he turn himself in to the police for mass murder? Did they clean up the murder scene and get rid of the bodies.

IMO Dean acted in self defense and the Mark drove his bloodlust again. I mean it's good that Dean understands that he couldn't control it but to what end? I feel like with Sam's demon blood murder of the nurse in s4 that went unaddressed by anyone EVER and killing innocents when he was soulless,Sam still forgave himself. But here Sam is all 'this is...too much'. I guess I just don't see why what Dean has done is that much worse than what Sam and Cas have done either.

I really kind of hope in a horribly sick way that getting rid of the Mark unleashes Demon!Dean again

Wynne88

Wynne88

I figure those guys got what was coming to them.  I really wish they wouldn't pull their punches with Dean being affected by the MoC.  If it's supposed to make him bad, let him be BAD.  Not an out-numbered underdog who manages to win against the odds thanks to a power boost. 

 

On a purely superficial note, that's the worse hair style I've ever seen on Sam.  They need a new hairdresser.

Mcolleague

Mcolleague

(edited)

Oh my god Dean. :( It was such a short clip, but SUCH a stab in the heart. Jensen is an incredible actor. 

 

Dean being horrified and feeling responsible despite supernatural influence etc. is very in character, and I have no problem with it, but I have to agree that it seems kind of hypocritical at this point for Sam/Cas to be *shocked and appalled*, since it's not like they haven't all done worse. This just comes across as being really contrived, and is probably because the episode is written by Nepotism Duo, with the "born killer" view of Dean as a character. It's unfortunate that they are still allowed to write mytharc episodes. 

Edited by Mcolleague
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NoWillToResist

NoWillToResist

(edited)

 it seems kind of hypocritical at this point for Sam/Cas to be *shocked and appalled*, since it's not like they haven't all done worse. This just comes across as being really contrived, and is probably because the episode is written by Nepotism Duo, with the "born killer" view of Dean as a character. It's unfortunate that they are still allowed to write mytharc episodes. 

 

But if Dean were a born killer, why would everyone say that Dean's actions were OOC and worrying?

 

I think it's ok for Sam and Cas to be shocked and appalled by what Dean did because, IMO, they aren't judging HIM. While Dean has always been a hunter and killed things, he generally didn't kill humans (IIRC) and he didn't create a bloodbath. Kills were usually fairly quick, clean and efficient.

 

I think it was the implied savagery and bloodlust of the kills that has disturbed them rather than the kills themselves.

 

So I suppose it's a lock that Cas' idea involves Metatron. He wrote the damned tablets per God (unless I'm misremembering) and I think he last had the tablet? So, even if the hard copy of the tablet isn't around anymore, theoretically Metatron would know what was on it.

 

I will be very interested to see Dean and Sam's reaction to Cas' idea. Once again, you're going to an enemy to ask for help. And Metatron is a proven liar. I honestly can't imagine why they'd think he'd tell them the truth. But Dean is utterly desperate, so...

 

While Dean's sad face was heartbreaking, I did appreciate Cas reminding him that the MoC isn't some fucking tattoo that he can just burn or cut off. Dean took it on without getting all the necessary information and now wants out. No surprise there. Consequences, guys. Consequences.

Edited by NoWillToResist
Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Dean being horrified and feeling responsible despite supernatural influence etc. is very in character, and I have no problem with it, but I have to agree that it seems kind of hypocritical at this point for Sam/Cas to be *shocked and appalled*, since it's not like they haven't all done worse.

 

Well, they all get a little self-righteous from time to time.  

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Oh I totally believe that Dean would believe he was the literal worst and that he is responsible but I guess my point is more that Dean was self-destructive last season and he didn't check for the fine print but Sam was pretty MIA on Deans issue when he first took on the mark. And then he side eyed him without doing much research even after he saw Dean get squirrelly and saw how much it affected him during blade runners and even then he still didn't do any research. Cas was too busy being involved with the angel war to really focus on Deans plight. So here they are just so shocked when Dean cracked as though they didn't kind of see it coming. They might not have been able to do anything but surely Sam knew he was slipping before he became a demon. I guess I just don't get their indignation or surprise.

And I didn't realize the Nepotism duo wrote this so now I have zero expectation of enjoying the episode other than Dean beating on Douchatron.

Edited by catrox14
Mcolleague

Mcolleague

(edited)

But if Dean were a born killer, why would everyone say that Dean's actions were OOC and worrying?

 

Because when other characters do sketchy things, like most recently say, tempt a man to sell his soul and risk the life of an innocent woman (without even being under supernatural influence), it isn't condemned as harshly in the narrative. Dean basically calls himself a cold blooded killer, and noone in the room disagrees. They can barely meet his eyes. I mean, I'm not expecting them to be happy Dean brutally massacres a room full of people, but the reaction seemed pretty over the top to me, considering all of their histories and the fact that Dean was under supernatural influence at the time. And they didn't even feel a little bad that they left the barely controlled, stab-happy guy alone with people who attacked him? Especially since Dean was in the situation in the first place because Castiel had asked him for help? -sigh- I'm barely able to fanwank it into making sense in my head. It feels so overdramatic. And OOC. 

 

Like, it's actually jarring to me how... distant? indifferent? Cas seems this season. I distinctly remember this relationship going a little differently last season, a little more concern/support/understanding even in the face of Dean's screw ups. I'm really starting to wonder about this in terms of authorial intent. Is this part of the deliberate toning down of the Dean/Cas relationship and the amping up of the brobond, to discourage the shippers and make sure Sam is the one who saves Dean? 

 

Well, they all get a little self-righteous from time to time.

 

This, on the other hand, I 100% agree with. To me, there's no point any of TFW acting shocked about this kind of thing anymore, all I can do is roll my eyes when I see it. They kill innocent human vessels without a second thought ALL the time. At least this time it was a roomful of rapists/rape enablers. This is a GOOD day. 

Edited by Mcolleague
Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I don't think Dean has anything to apologize to Cole about. Dean protected Cole as a child from the monster Dad which demon Dean didn't really care about. Regular Dean would never have left Sam to die. The beating he gave Cole as a demon was probably not much worse than what regular Dean could have done. I still feel like what he told Cole at the end of girls was more for Sam than anyone. Him saying he beat a good man for no reason other than he felt like was a load of crap because IMO Dean had every reason to maim/kill Cole for kidnapping and torturing Sam and trying to kill Dean.

So to me on no level do either Sam or Dean have any reason to feel bad for Cole or be buddies with him.

 

Dean shouldn't feel or do a lot of things, but he still does. He thinks he's the reason why Jo became a hunter, which makes no sense (he barely knew Jo before she left the Roadhouse), but it's based on his guilt, as he was made to feel guilty about everything he said and did starting at a very young age. 

 

I don't see why they shouldn't hang around Cole if he's on the right path. Dean and Sam don't have friends, they never will, but I doubt they see him that way. It's an ally, and they can use any of those they can get.

rue721

rue721

(edited)

Good scene! Dean is like that person in every zombie movie, who's part of the Plucky Band of Survivors, but ends up getting bitten in some non-lethal way. They have to figure out what to do with him before he "turns."

 

And I liked how Sam jumped when Dean showed up in the middle of the conversation between Sam and Cas. I literally laughed out loud at that.

 

Here's the thing with Dean saying he went too far. This is Dean under the influence of the MoC. Did he really think he could control it? If he really believes he went too far, does he turn himself in to the police for mass murder? Did they clean up the murder scene and get rid of the bodies.

 

Taking this to All Episodes (but am probably going to eat dinner first, so might be a little while before I actually post, lol).

 

I really kind of hope in a horribly sick way that getting rid of the Mark unleashes Demon!Dean again

 

I think this is a real possibility, because I think Dean's life is in danger, and obviously, when he died last time he came back as a demon.

 

Also, I don't buy that he's *completely* cured in the first place, not because of his behavior especially, but because they hung that lantern on Sam not using his own purified blood in order to cure Dean in the first place. Crowley and that man the Men of Letters cured in the old movie both were being injected with the purified blood of the person who was also doing the spell/cure. With Dean, Sam specifically didn't use his own blood -- they showed him going to get it, and he said explicitly to Dean that it wasn't his. Why hang that lantern if it didn't matter?

 

Though, of course, in reality, it might very well have just been random bullshit included for no reason. Meanwhile in that episode, Dean was also slipping the demon cuffs and the devil's trap for no reason that made sense (he was "too human" but also still a demon? wha?), and the big climax of the episode was resolved by Cas showing up from his interminable road trip and grabbing Dean -- just to put him back into those cuffs and the devil's trap that apparently weren't even working on him anymore anyway, I guess. So yeah, lots in that episode didn't make sense, and maybe the blood just is some foolishness, too.

 

ETA:

I figured Cole would show up again, so I'm not that het up about it. If I were Sam, though, I would NOT have him sitting alone in the backseat right behind me, though, js.

 

He must be an ally in that scene, though, because otherwise, I would think that Sam or Dean would be sitting in the back with him to keep him in line.

Edited by rue721
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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I figure those guys got what was coming to them.  I really wish they wouldn't pull their punches with Dean being affected by the MoC.  If it's supposed to make him bad, let him be BAD.  Not an out-numbered underdog who manages to win against the odds thanks to a power boost. 

 

On a purely superficial note, that's the worse hair style I've ever seen on Sam.  They need a new hairdresser.

 

I don't think the mark was ever supposed to make him bad, as much as it would consume him, which is what has happened.

 

I've seen more than enough shows, including this one, have the main characters do unforgivable things for shock value, and then ignore it. It's something that still hangs over Sam's head (to me anyway). I'm not sorry to see them avoiding the same with Dean.

Oh my god Dean. :( It was such a short clip, but SUCH a stab in the heart. Jensen is an incredible actor. 

 

Dean being horrified and feeling responsible despite supernatural influence etc. is very in character, and I have no problem with it, but I have to agree that it seems kind of hypocritical at this point for Sam/Cas to be *shocked and appalled*, since it's not like they haven't all done worse. This just comes across as being really contrived, and is probably because the episode is written by Nepotism Duo, with the "born killer" view of Dean as a character. It's unfortunate that they are still allowed to write mytharc episodes. 

 

Surely if they saw Dean as a "born killer," the text would be saying the mark has nothing to do with his actions, instead of saying the mark has changed him and should be removed. 

 

The scene comes across as forced to me, more than anything else. The music, and the performances - it all seems like a parody.

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

Because when other characters do sketchy things, like most recently say, tempt a man to sell his soul and risk the life of an innocent woman (without even being under supernatural influence), it isn't condemned as harshly in the narrative. Dean basically calls himself a cold blooded killer, and noone in the room disagrees. They can barely meet his eyes. I mean, I'm not expecting them to be happy Dean brutally massacres a room full of people, but the reaction seemed pretty over the top to me, considering all of their histories and the fact that Dean was under supernatural influence at the time. And they didn't even feel a little bad that they left the barely controlled, stab-happy guy alone with people who attacked him? Especially since Dean was in the situation in the first place because Castiel had asked him for help? -sigh- I'm barely able to fanwank it into making sense in my head. It feels so overdramatic. And OOC. 

 

Like, it's actually jarring to me how... distant? indifferent? Cas seems this season. I distinctly remember this relationship going a little differently last season, a little more concern/support/understanding even in the face of Dean's screw ups. I'm really starting to wonder about this in terms of authorial intent. Is this part of the deliberate toning down of the Dean/Cas relationship and the amping up of the brobond, to discourage the shippers and make sure Sam is the one who saves Dean? 

 

TPTB hyped up what Sam did as being a very bad thing. Dean also seemed less than happy when he learned of it. If it wasn't seen as worse I'd say it's because many viewers just didn't seem fazed, as they weren't fazed by what Dean did to Randy and the Rapists. 

 

I think the reactions here are the way they are for suspense purposes. If Sam and Cas told him not to sweat it, he's still doing fine, it's their fault, etc. then people would be more apt to wonder why the mark is a threat. Dean would also likely see it as coddling and being patronizing. 

 

I do remember Dean and Cas being more emotionally intimate last season, but I guess Cas is trying to shed his humanity this season. That and, as always, his characterization depends on the episode.

 

The only part that seemed very bizarre to me is when Cas insisted Randy wasn't that bad. Do we need more rape apologism on the show? I guess with this team, we do.

Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

What happened to the kid?  Randy's son?  Is he dead?  I would understand if Claire wanted revenge for his death.  Regardless, I imagine she's in denial.  It's easy for her to think that Randy didn't know what the guy was going to do, or couldn't stop him, or whatever.  No one wants to believe the worst of someone they trust.

 

Not that I'm happy about it, but I'm going to reserve my outrage for the episode.  ;-)

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

Holy judgment, Batman. First they fret a bit about the Mark of Cain but otherwise do NOTHING else about it, especially not be vigilant because hey, Dean is supposed to handle it all and keep a lid on it. Cain couldn`t do so for centuries but somehow Dean miraculously must be able to.

 

So we get a situation where Cas and Sam park their asses in the car and kinda go "hm, Dean is not coming, odd".  Then they run back in and judgment is already exploding all over the place. And now Dean, in character, feels he is a horrible monster and the silent commentary from the Peanut gallery is pretty much "yeah, you totally are". 

 

Because it`s not like those people ever had their darkside brushes themselves. Nope, they are as pure as the driven now with dainty moral sensitivities that Dean horribly violated. Or something. Candlelight vigil for the slave-trader. I guess what Dean should have done was the morally superior thing and let himself be killed instead. Or the superhuman thing and controlled the MOC totally and utterly. 

 

If the situations were reversed, they would expect a "you are not a horrible monster" affirmation or we would get a speech later on "how could you say this? didn`t you know how that made me feel, wah". I`m already certain such a speech will not be coming from Dean because he seems to expect that sad reaction.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Dean didn't kill not!Alfie. He killed Randy and the other cretins. 

 

I know.  I'm wondering what happened to him and saying that if Dean had killed Dustin, then Claire's desire for revenge would have made more sense.  

 

Revenge (in relation to this show, anyway) always makes me think of Mary or Jessica.  So when they talk about Claire wanting revenge, it makes me cringe.

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catrox14

catrox14

Ah. I see. I am super leary of the idea that Claire is going to want vengeance on Dean over Randy which is so terrible and I can't fathom that is anything the show will be able to address adequately as an examination of the how messed up that relationship was nor do I even want it to be. Is Cas going to defend Claire? Will they put Dean into a position of having to possibly hurt Claire in self defense or let her hurt him so that she is not a victim? Ugh iit's just so filled with problems that I can't believe they are going to even broach it.

rue721

rue721

(edited)

So cheesy! Part of the problem is that I don't care about most of the characters in that trailer, like Charlie, Claire, or Crowley. All I have to say about them is a big old MEH! God forbid *anyone* cares about Metatron. He's not even scary, I just don't see the point.

 

And Dean hitting stuff or doing that shakey-hand thing is pretty old hat at this point, huh? It's been like a year since they even introduced the shakey-hand stuff, and there was never a time when punching was new.

 

Oh well, I guess it's not necessarily that those episodes are all awful (fingers crossed?!). Throwing a bunch of scenes that didn't build on each other at all and that were at least 1/3 someone tied to a chair for whatever reason (as ALWAYS with this show) were never going to make for a good promo. That soundtrack of someone playing a guitar on Rock Band didn't help.

Edited by rue721
SueB

SueB

  • Author

I know it was certainly two episodes, what makes people say "three"?  Just curious.  

 

I'm looking forward to it. And I liked hearing that Charlie will know about the Mark of Cain.  Which of course means it's still there. So, if anyone had fears about it going away next episode, I think those should be minimized.  

 

I, for one, can't wait.  

 

 

That soundtrack of someone playing a guitar on Rock Band didn't help.

Favorite snarky comment of the day!

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

I think Dylan Everett`s eyes were in it again so technically, that would be a clip from episode 12. Maybe there are others.

 

Charlie has a tendency to completely take over her eps due to the extreme infatuation Thompson has with his creation. Seriously, they should let another writer take a stab at writing her for that very reason. However, also for that very reason, it will never happen because he wouldn`t allow it and there is no showrunner just telling him "no". They even manage character nepotism on this show. Jesus.

 

Everything to do with Claire bores me. 

Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I know it was certainly two episodes, what makes people say "three"?  Just curious.  

 

When I said three, it was in reference to my (and at least one other's) opinion that in the past couple of seasons, singular episodes have had multiple story lines that could have been spread out over multiple episodes, instead of just one.  So, for me:

 

  • Claire's revenge
  • Charlie's return
  • The capture/interrogation of Metatron

 

could be episodes in their own right, with some Crowley and his mumsey thrown in to break up the stories.  But that could just be me.  :-)

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

I haven't watched the promo, but judging from the shows recent history when dealing with myth heavy episodes, I wouldn't be surprised if there isn't at least three episode worth of plot crammed into one. Taxi Driver anyone? They seem to save it all up and cram it into one episode rather than spreading it out and really serving the storylines properly. I usually have the feeling that even though there was a lot going on, nothing really happened in the end.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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SueB

SueB

  • Author

Well it took me 4 tries but I finally caught Dylan's eyes, so yep...three episodes. I'm 100% positive the Charlie story and the Claire story are two separate episodes.  The Crowley stuff is mentioned in The Hunter Games, along with Claire and Metatron.

So, I would agree that The Hunter Games is over-packed based on what little we've seen. 

 

The only other significant character appears to be a non-Claire young girl.  It's not the one by the lakeside (that Dean is holding against his chest) but the young girl is in several shots and is tied up at one point (green longdress? and grey leggings I think). I'm going to bet this last girl is in the "about a boy" plot.  

 

Other notes:

- Dean's shaky hands are in clothes he's wearing in the Not!Charlie confrontation.  I think Dean is with Not!Charlie and Sam is with Charlie. There's a scene with Sam carrying (I think) Charlie while the Not!Charlie appears to be on the ground. It's just a frame or two so not certain.   

oliverwendell

oliverwendell

I think the promo looks interesting.  What I can't figure out is why Dean is out and about choking people and whacking them with hammers.  Shouldn't he be on lockdown or something, for the good of humanity?  And why is Cas telling Dean (I'm assuming) that he can't defeat monsters by becoming one himself?  From the sneak peek it seemed like Dean is already well aware of that little moral truism.  So does he decide, at some point after that scene, that so long as he's got the MOC he should put it to good use by going after every monster he can find?  I am perplexed.

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

Ah. I see. I am super leary of the idea that Claire is going to want vengeance on Dean over Randy which is so terrible and I can't fathom that is anything the show will be able to address adequately as an examination of the how messed up that relationship was nor do I even want it to be. Is Cas going to defend Claire? Will they put Dean into a position of having to possibly hurt Claire in self defense or let her hurt him so that she is not a victim? Ugh iit's just so filled with problems that I can't believe they are going to even broach it.

 

I doubt they're going to have Dean fight a teenage girl. I assume she will want to kill him, but will stop, or Cas will stop her. 

Holy judgment, Batman. First they fret a bit about the Mark of Cain but otherwise do NOTHING else about it, especially not be vigilant because hey, Dean is supposed to handle it all and keep a lid on it. Cain couldn`t do so for centuries but somehow Dean miraculously must be able to.

 

So we get a situation where Cas and Sam park their asses in the car and kinda go "hm, Dean is not coming, odd".  Then they run back in and judgment is already exploding all over the place. And now Dean, in character, feels he is a horrible monster and the silent commentary from the Peanut gallery is pretty much "yeah, you totally are". 

 

Because it`s not like those people ever had their darkside brushes themselves. Nope, they are as pure as the driven now with dainty moral sensitivities that Dean horribly violated. Or something. Candlelight vigil for the slave-trader. I guess what Dean should have done was the morally superior thing and let himself be killed instead. Or the superhuman thing and controlled the MOC totally and utterly. 

 

If the situations were reversed, they would expect a "you are not a horrible monster" affirmation or we would get a speech later on "how could you say this? didn`t you know how that made me feel, wah". I`m already certain such a speech will not be coming from Dean because he seems to expect that sad reaction.

 

I'm not sure what they'd expect. When Sam asked Dean if he now saw Sam as a monster, Dean said yes. Dean also had less than no empathy or patience for Cas after the Crowley deal reveal, and that continued to be the case until moments before he "died."

 

TFW generally aren't full of empathy in moments like these.

Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

I'm not sure what they'd expect. When Sam asked Dean if he now saw Sam as a monster, Dean said yes. Dean also had less than no empathy or patience for Cas after the Crowley deal reveal, and that continued to be the case until moments before he "died."

 

And that was generally met with "how could you..." *wounded look of baby animal* sentiments. And both Cas and Sam were at those points still quite convinced they were on a right enough track that they just needed support. They actually kind of felt entitled to it still.

 

Dean gives himself no quarter here. He doesn`t stumble onto the scene of Cas and Sam discussing him and condemning him with an "how could you" look of accusation. Instead he declares himself the monster they just did moments ago as well. I get that neither Sam nor Cas have the instinct to be the caretaker here but giving off a general air of "well, we kinda would rather YOU be dead instead of the rape crew and preserve our moral sense of integrity"? If you love a person, that reaction wouldn`t even figure in IMO. 

 

I credit a lot of that due to the twisted views and general bad writing of the nepotism duo but it`s still not so one-time and out-of-character that I can handwave it completely. The duo might be gleefully think they are bashing Dean to the high heavens but he is not coming out looking the worst in this clip. 

Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I credit a lot of that due to the twisted views and general bad writing of the nepotism duo but it`s still not so one-time and out-of-character that I can handwave it completely. The duo might be gleefully think they are bashing Dean to the high heavens but he is not coming out looking the worst in this clip. 

 

I think if they were trying to bash Dean, there are other ways to do it - Gamble and Kripke used to use the crutch of him punching out Sam, so that viewers would be distracted from being too hard on Sam and would instead see both brothers as the problem.

 

I think it's less about wanting to bash Dean as it is an attempt at some type of suspense; if we're supposed to worry for Dean and what might happen to Dean, or if he might have to be killed. Sam and Cas have to play that role of doubt.

Mcolleague

Mcolleague

(edited)

I think if they were trying to bash Dean, there are other ways to do it.

 

I don't think they are TRYING to bash Dean either. It makes no sense for the writers to deliberately try to sabotage one of their own main characters. What I do think is that they hold assumptions about Dean as a character based on certain surface traits, and condemn his actions more harshly because of it. When less educated, less enlightened, black-and-white morality Dean, the brawn, the "cute dumb one" screws up - even while under supernatural influence - it entitles others to be *horrified*, and he is acting like "a wounded animal" (nope, the Claire parallel wasn't an anvil at ALL) and practically deserves to be put down like a rabid dog. It's interesting, the kind of language they use, the images they choose to invoke when it comes to Dean. The self defence element is completely forgotten, the compromised agency also ignored, no mentions whatsoever from his so called family/friends that this might not have been completely caused by Dean being a terrible person. 

 

I think many of the writers have this mentality about Dean, yes, most likely including Kripke, possibly also Gamble (can't comment since I'm less familiar with her seasons, having hated them), but it's extra evident with some of them, especially Deadly Duo who have commented explicitly on the "born killer" business.

Edited by Mcolleague
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Pete Martell

Pete Martell

I don't think they are TRYING to bash Dean either. It makes no sense for the writers to deliberately try to sabotage one of their own main characters. What I do think is that they hold assumptions about Dean as a character based on certain surface traits, and condemn his actions more harshly because of it. When less educated, less enlightened, black-and-white morality Dean, the brawn, the "cute dumb one" screws up - even while under supernatural influence - it entitles others to be *horrified*, and he is acting like "a wounded animal" (nope, the Claire parallel wasn't an anvil at ALL) and practically deserves to be put down like a rabid dog. It's interesting, the kind of language they use, the images they choose to invoke when it comes to Dean. The self defence element is completely forgotten, the compromised agency also ignored, no mentions whatsoever from his so called family/friends that this might not have been completely caused by Dean being a terrible person. 

 

To me Sam and Cas don't come across as seeing Dean as a terrible person. They seem shocked by what he's done, which they wouldn't if they had a low opinion of him. They also seem supportive of the idea of the mark being the problem - they just don't know what to do about it. 

 

I think the whole scene is difficult to believe, as it feels like it's characters behaving a certain way to try to create a lot of melodrama. It doesn't feel natural to me. Cas in particular almost seems dubbed like a kung-fu movie.

Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

To me Sam and Cas don't come across as seeing Dean as a terrible person. They seem shocked by what he's done, which they wouldn't if they had a low opinion of him. They also seem supportive of the idea of the mark being the problem - they just don't know what to do about it. 

 

I think the whole scene is difficult to believe, as it feels like it's characters behaving a certain way to try to create a lot of melodrama. It doesn't feel natural to me. Cas in particular almost seems dubbed like a kung-fu movie.

 

I agree.  Not so much what Dean has done, but what the Mark does.  Dean killed last season, in the #thinman episode, but not like this.  It was overkill, which is not something they've seen from Dean.  Dean can talk about what it's doing to him, but it's something entirely different to see with your own eyes.

 

Maybe it's a bad acting choice, I don't know, but this Castiel reminds me of "Misha as Castiel" in The French Mistake.  

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SueB

SueB

  • Author

I guess I'm easy to please because I liked what I saw.  Of course what I saw appears to be not quite the same as what many others saw.  I saw Cas and Sam at a loss.  Cas is overwhelmed with guilt because Claire is in "wounded animal" mode over scum-of-the-earth RANDY.  As he said, how shitty was her life if she's mourning the guy who sold her into sexual slavery???  So... no issues on my part with the first part of the conversation.

 

Then Cas, rightly IMO, starts to bring up the slaughter.  I for one don't want TFW being judge, jury and execution on human scum.  That's what the judicial system is for.  Yes, they attacked Dean. But his actions were out of his own control and he used overwhelming violence.  Obviously 5 to 1 says that under normal circumstances, Dean doing anything and everything he could to survive is perfectly fine.  And if they died because that's the only way he could survive. No biggie.  That's just what happens in a violent universe.  But that's not how it's presented. It's presented as if Dean went into melee mode and slaughtered these guys in a moment of pure bloodlust.  It's the manner in which he took them out.  Dean used supernatural force (powered by the Mark) to kill.  Remember when he toyed with Cole?  Now 5 to one there's less ability to toy, but the point is that it's implied he could have taken them out more efficiently without using deadly force for everyone.  Within the show, that's the story they are telling us -- that all of TFW recognized Dean went over the line.  Cas and Sam had barely started to broach the topic except to acknowledge this was "not right" when Dean came in and called it a massacre.  And they didn't argue with him.  Why would they?  He was there and fortunately is coherent enough to know he had an out-of-control moment.  I'm actually thrilled that they aren't in the position of trying to explain to him that he went too far.  If they wanted to make Dean the bad guy, they would have had him deny he did anything wrong.  But instead, Dean IMO looks like the damaged hero.  The one carrying around a Mark that makes him lose his agency.  Yes, Dean rashly took that Mark on so he owns the consequences.  And thankfully, Dean is not remotely suggesting anything else.

 

IMO a hero admits when he screwed up.  And Dean screwed up by not asking for the consequences when Cain was hinting this would be a big deal.  Now, if Dean had been misled by Cain, then Dean would be a victim.  But he wasn't mislead.  All he wanted to do was kill Abbadon.  No, he didn't foresee that he'd turn into a "stone cold killer". And that's why we have sympathy for Dean.  He was rash, impetuous, and hurting.  He didn't go for the Mark in a lust for power.    So, there's a world of difference between making a bad decision and intentionally seeking to do evil.  That's why Dean is still a hero despite his current problem.  And Cas and Sam are terrified about how to resolve this.  Dean has already asked Cas to kill him.  Even when he was a demon, he taunted Sam that Sam wouldn't be able to do the "right thing" (kill Dean).  So, IMO, Cas and Sam have every right to be freaked.  Dean's already signed off on his own death is that's the only way.  And they'll have to be the ones to do it.  Both would rather die first. 

 

So... it sucks to be on TFW right now. 

 

But nothing these guys did suggested to me that they felt Dean personally was evil. Just that the situation has gone pear shaped and they need to do SOMETHING about it. 

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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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