Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm over Gabriel too.

One character I'd really like to see come back is Hendrikson.  He was the first death I really disliked.  I thought he would have made a great hunter in training and i really liked his relationship with Dean. 

I

SAME. I loved Victor.

[ahrtee]

27 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm over Gabriel too.

One character I'd really like to see come back is Hendrikson.  He was the first death I really disliked.  I thought he would have made a great hunter in training and i really liked his relationship with Dean. 

 

Maybe Victor will be in Alt!World as a hunter.  (He can partner with Bobby since Rufus isn't there.)  

[catrox14]

I have to say if Cas is in the Empty, I'm mildly irritated with that only because it was the threat to the boys for so long but NOPE nothing to see here.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

“it’s an old — let’s call him friend — who we have not seen for many years.”

Hm.  The 'let's call him friend' makes it sound like it wasn't a real 'friend' but maybe a temporary ally of the Winchesters.  I'm not sure Michael even fits the bill on that.  Then again, twisted the right way, it could also apply to Michael.  It could also apply to Gabriel or Balthazar, imo

11 hours ago, ahrtee said:

aybe angels in the AU aren't just dicks but are actually demonically evil (which might explain why Alt!Bobby kills all angels on sight.)  Would that mean that demons in the AU aren't evil but Alt!angels?

That could be interesting.  So Abaddon would be an ally?  Potential UO: I don't want Ruby back, especially as a 'good' demon.  I'd love to see Meg, but I don't the actress is up for it.   It'd be all kinds of strangely interesting if Alt!Alastair helped them out.    

[ILoveReading]

Jensen talks about having to do some stunt driving with Baby that he's never had to do before.  It reminded me of the pictures Kevin Parks (Assistant Director) posted during the first couple of days of filming.

 

[nightwing877]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Hm.  The 'let's call him friend' makes it sound like it wasn't a real 'friend' but maybe a temporary ally of the Winchesters.  I'm not sure Michael even fits the bill on that.  Then again, twisted the right way, it could also apply to Michael.  It could also apply to Gabriel or Balthazar, imo

That could be interesting.  So Abaddon would be an ally?  Potential UO: I don't want Ruby back, especially as a 'good' demon.  I'd love to see Meg, but I don't the actress is up for it.   It'd be all kinds of strangely interesting if Alt!Alastair helped them out.    

They could bring back original Meg from season 1, and not Rachel who we know can't do it.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Jensen talks about having to do some stunt driving with Baby that he's never had to do before.  It reminded me of the pictures Kevin Parks (Assistant Director) posted during the first couple of days of filming.

I remember seeing those pictures, but didn't put it together with what Jensen was saying.  Good catch!  Can't wait to see the scene.  

4 minutes ago, nightwing877 said:

They could bring back original Meg from season 1, and not Rachel who we know can't do it.

True!

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 It'd be all kinds of strangely interesting if Alt!Alastair helped them out.

Big Fat NOPE to that. That's the equivalent of Lucifer helping them which was awful and terrible and should never have happened. NOPE NOPE NOPE. I only want Alt Alastair if Dean cuts his head off. LOL

[Pondlass1]

I wouldn't mind seeing the original Meg from season one.  That was back in the day when demons were something and she was a good actress... I wonder if she's doing anything now?  I know she's a singer.

[Wayward Son]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Big Fat NOPE to that. That's the equivalent of Lucifer helping them which was awful and terrible and should never have happened. NOPE NOPE NOPE. I only want Alt Alastair if Dean cuts his head off. LOL

Personally, I don't see it as the same. The Lucifer who helped out in s11 was the Lucifer we knew with that same history and emotional conflict. However, If an Alt!Alastair were involved, especially if he were good, then he's not the same guy. It wouldn't be fair for anyone to judge him based on the behaviour of someone who happens to look like him. 

 

To me it is the same as how we wouldn't find  permanent Alt!Cas acceptable because he's not the same guy as ours. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Personally, I don't see it as the same. The Lucifer who helped out in s11 was the Lucifer we knew with that same history and emotional conflict. However, If an Alt!Alastair were involved, especially if he were good, then he's not the same guy. It wouldn't be fair for anyone to judge him based on the behaviour of someone who happens to look like him. 

I agree - and that's more along the lines of what I was thinking.  Here's someone who looks like the Alastair who tortured Dean in Hell, but is not the same guy, and then kind of helps them out.  I think it would lead to some amazing scenes for Dean, with him trying to wrap his head around that, and hey, bonus for all those who complain about Dean's Hell Time never getting mentioned - that would do it!

[catrox14]

33 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

It wouldn't be fair for anyone to judge him based on the behaviour of someone who happens to look like him. 

You remind me why I'm not super enthused about the AU in SPN. I just don't think the writers of SPN have the chops to pull off long term AU story.  They are not FRINGE here. They don't have Ben Edlund. IMO the AU already looks like it's from a bad pulp novel with the demons looking like they do. That made me roll my eyes.

Anyway, I don't want full on dead villains in SPN1 to  be good guys or allies.in the AU because I think Dabb won't be able to resist the temptation to bring them over to SPN1 for faux redemption arcs which I'm not down for.

I don't care what universe Alastair comes from he'll always be a piece of shit in my mind. I'm good with being unfair about Alastair because I hate that fucker with the fire 1000 suns and I want Dean to have a chance to chop his head off since he didn't do it before. 

Edited July 27, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

hey, bonus for all those who complain about Dean's Hell Time never getting mentioned - that would do it!

Dean would be told HOW WRONG HE IS for wanting to kill someone that looks  like the Master torturer of Hell who tormented Dean for  30 years to the point Dean finally became a torturer of others, because he's a good guy now.  That will do nothing but minimize Dean's Hell Trauma even more. No thanks.

[Pondlass1]

They don't seem to be calling it the AU in interviews. Apocalyptic world or something?

An AU storyline could be very intriguing and a shot in the arm for this show that's been dragging a bit lately, but I have little faith in our showrunner and his writers.  It might just be an opportunity for all established canon to go out the window. 

[catrox14]

One thing that kind of amuses me in a not really funny way, was Jared talking about how one of Sam's arguments to Dean for not killing Jack is 'So what, you'd kill me, too?".  JFC show, are they really gonna drag out that chestnut again? And also, why is Sam making killing Jack about himself. I sure hope that was Jared just babbling or overstating it.  That's a whole ugly can of worms IMO that the show should just let lie, given that Sam had no trouble killing Dean's half human, half-Amazon daughter Emma, before he knew whether she would be good or bad of her own accord vs being brainwashed at 12. Who knows if she  had been given a chance maybe she would have turned out okay.

My point though is that I think the show is making a HUGE mistake if what Jared says is how it's going to go down.

Let those sleeping dogs lie, Dabb.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

One thing that kind of amuses me in a not really funny way, was Jared talking about how one of Sam's arguments to Dean for not killing Jack is 'So what, you'd kill me, too?".  JFC show, are they really gonna drag out that chestnut again? And also, why is Sam making killing Jack about himself. I sure hope that was Jared just babbling or overstating it.  That's a whole ugly can of worms IMO that the show should just let lie, given that Sam had no trouble killing Dean's half human, half-Amazon daughter Emma, before he knew whether she would be good or bad of her own accord vs being brainwashed at 12. Who knows if she  had been given a chance maybe she would have turned out okay.

responding in All Eps.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

They don't seem to be calling it the AU in interviews. Apocalyptic world or something?

An AU storyline could be very intriguing and a shot in the arm for this show that's been dragging a bit lately, but I have little faith in our showrunner and his writers.  It might just be an opportunity for all established canon to go out the window. 

They can call it the Apocalpyse world in interviews all they want but in the episode, Cas literally said it was an alternate reality but Earth.

Quote

CASTIEL: It's a doorway to another world.

DEAN: Anoth-- What, like Narnia?
CASTIEL: No. No, through there it's Earth, but...but different. It's a-- it's an alternate reality.

I don't know why they are being cagey about it. Maybe they are hedging so they can smudge the boundaries and do exactly what you are worried about @Pondlass1. They can alter characters and canon in the AU and literally bring those characters into the SPN1 verse and jack it all up, no pun intended. WAIT A MINUTE is that why they named him Jack? Because it's gonna get all "Jack'd" up? I wouldn't put it past them. LOL 

I keep wondering if that is why Michael's age was being mentioned again and again. I'll bet Michael will be in Lucifer's role in the AU. He'll be the Devil.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

They can call it the Apocalpyse world in interviews all they want but in the episode, Cas literally said it was an alternate reality but Earth.

I don't know why they are being cagey about it. Maybe they are hedging so they can smudge the boundaries and do exactly what you are worried about @Pondlass1. They can alter characters and canon in the AU and literally bring those characters into the SPN1 verse and jack it all up, no pun intended. WAIT A MINUTE is that why they named him Jack? Because it's gonna get all "Jack'd" up? I wouldn't put it past them. LOL 

I keep wondering if that is why Michael's age was being mentioned again and again. I'll bet Michael will be in Lucifer's role in the AU. He'll be the Devil.

I'm hoping that it means that they will have to visit several alternate universes to get back to the one with Mary and Lucifer, so the AU where Mary and Lucifer are is just being called the apocalyptic universe to distinguish it from the others.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I'm hoping that it means that they will have to visit several alternate universes to get back to the one with Mary and Lucifer, so the AU where Mary and Lucifer are is just being called the apocalyptic universe to distinguish it from the others.

I kind of doubt they'll do anything that interesting because the AU world is in the state it is because the boys were never born, which is another reason I'm not that keen on the AU right now. I would like to see Bizarro versions of Dean, Sam and Cas. Maybe one of the other universes, if they go there will have the Bizarro versions.

One thing that doesn't really make a lot of sense to me is why angels would be different in the AU. They are wavelengths of Celestial Intent which really shouldn't be bound by universes especially since we know Balthazar could put Dean and Sam in a literal alternate reality.  I can see humans and demons being different in the AU because they were born in the AU as humans and then became demons. I sure hope they don't alter that demons are corrupted human souls in the AU. That would suck. I wonder if it's better to think of the AU as more like the Upside Down

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, nightwing877 said:

They could bring back original Meg from season 1, and not Rachel who we know can't do it.

I'm not sure if the quote "let's call him friend" means anything; but if it does, it sounds like it lets out any (old) flavor of Meg or Ruby (or even Abaddon), though it doesn't mean they can't recast as male (ugh).  

Edited July 27, 2017 by ahrtee

[Wayward Son]

I don't think they'd bring back Meg! I'm fairly certain I read somewhere they killed off Meg because Rachel wasn't keen on someone else playing it, and they decided to respect that since she was quitting due to health reasons. Or they may have just made the decision without any input from Rachel. I'm not too sure, but I'm fairly certain I remember reading something along those lines.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not sure if the quote "let's call him friend" means anything; but if it does, it sounds like it lets out any (old) flavor of Meg or Ruby (or even Abaddon), though it doesn't mean they can't recast as male (ugh).  

Good point.  So on the angel side, potentially there's: Michael, Gabriel, Balthazar.  Any others that could be called 'friend'?  Zach?  Lol.  Gadreel?  Metatron?  (but he was just seen in S12, so that's not 'haven't seen in many years')

On the demon side what boys haven't been seen in many years?  Alastair.  Cain?

In the middle: Kevin?

[ahrtee]

Trying to parse spoilers is a challenge.  If the line is:  “[Lucifer’s child] Jack is not the biggest threat they are dealing with,” executive producer Andrew Dabb revealed during a San Diego Comic-Con interview. While the EP declined to identify which evildoer gets that special title, he hinted that “it’s an old — let’s call him friend — who we have not seen for many years.”

So...whoever it is, is (or at least will be) a threat, not just someone they haven't seen for a long time who might be either former ally or enemy.   

First question:  is everything/everyone reversed there, so the good guys on earth are now bad in the AU?  (Probably not, because Bobby wasn't bad.)   

Next question:  is it a world-wide threat or something more personal?  (And is it here or in the AU or both?)  

If we're going personal, (and this isn't even spec, just a wish) I'd love to see Gordon Walker again (trying to kill Mary for her resurrection).  Except I can't imagine Sterling K. Brown coming back to the show now that he's such a hot property.   

But I'm guessing it will be a world-threatening Big Bad (again).  So (unfortunately) I have a feeling they're talking Michael (is Matt Cohen available?)

Even if he's not "evil," I could see Michael wanting to get into our world in order to have a do-over with the Apocalypse, to make sure the angels win this time and bring "paradise" to the world.  But I'm really over the whole Apocalypse SL and don't want it dragged up again (whether or not it means wanting the boys as vessels again.)  

Any other thoughts?  

[trxr4kids]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Any other thoughts?  

Jimmy Novak, it sorta fits with all the little clues that have been dropped.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Jimmy Novak, it sorta fits with all the little clues that have been dropped.

Maybe he'll show up, but I can't see him being a threat (?)  I think a lot of "old"/former guest stars/semi-regulars will appear, but they won't be the Big Bad.

Edited July 27, 2017 by ahrtee

[Aeryn13]

I think it`s gonna be Michael. Sure, if you think about it logically, he wouldn`t be the most fitting character as per the description they gave. But we`re talking about Dabb here who wrote the Season 12 Finale and a few months later gives interviews where he says that Mary went willingly into the rift/pulled Lucifer with her. These people can`t keep their own crap consistent. Michael as a character from yesteryore, if Dabb now described him as a green-gilled alien, it wouldn`t surprise me.

And Singer randomely brought him up in that TV guide write-up after years of "oh well, that guy, no plans". 

Right now it looks like Misha/Cas has the best storyline. Caught in most likely the Empty and potentially facing himself. It would make sense if the only thing you found in the Empty was what you brought with: yourself. 

Sam over-identifying with Jack and waxing poetic about his dork destiny again? Good god, do we need this stuff brought back up again? This "it`s about meeee, you really wanna kill meee" is annyoing but not atypical. He can`t see that Dean or even other hunters would just think "wow, Lucifer`s power-baby, too great a threat, lets eliminate it" and not through the lense of "how does that relate to Sam?" I also hope that is not in the dialogue because quite frankly it`s ridiculously albeit unconciously narcisstic. 

Dean giving in to not killing Jack - apart from presumably it won`t be that easy to kill the superpowerful Nephilim, just like Amara couldn`t be simply stabbed with the demon butter knife - is hopefully due to the most logical argument, that Jack could potentially open the rift again. 

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Jimmy Novak, it sorta fits with all the little clues that have been dropped.

Jimmy Novak is already in Heaven with his wife. I'm not sure how that would work.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Brought back over from All Eps, since it contains spoilers/spec:

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The point of me bringing that up is that is nature vs nurture.

(Recopying this bit here since I address it in the spoiler part as well)

On the nature vs. nurture thing - I think what you don't seem to be considering in the Emma situation is that nature vs. nurture is only an argument for not killing a monster before either one has been able to have it's way.  Emma had nature against her since she was half Amazon and she'd already been nurtured to kill her daddy.  Double whammy!  Mile vary, but like I said, it was already too late for Emma.  If they'd gotten her when she was a baby when Dean first went back to the house for his flask (? I think it was his flask) then sure, I could get on board with your argument about Sam giving her a chance.  But by the time she showed up to kill Dean it was too late.  

(New stuff)

As far as Sam (as a baby with Demon blood) and Jack as a nephilim - I think that's where the nature vs. nurture argument really applies.  Sam had the evil nature of the demon blood in him as a baby, and like Jared says in one of his interviews, since he was nurtured properly, he didn't turn out evil (except when he was hyped up on demon blood).  Jack is more or less in the same situation as baby Sam (or baby Emma would have been had they been able to get to her sooner).  He's got 'evil' (as Lucifer is his father) potentially in his nature, but he hasn't been nurtured either way.  

[bettername2come]

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

First question:  is everything/everyone reversed there, so the good guys on earth are now bad in the AU?  (Probably not, because Bobby wasn't bad.)  

I don't think so, because the main difference stems from the fact that John died in 1973 and Mary never made the deal, right? I think we'll see some people bad who are good and vice versa due to those changes and the apocalypse.

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Jimmy Novak is already in Heaven with his wife. I'm not sure how that would work.

Our Jimmy Novak is, but there could be another Jimmy in that world. 

My head hurts trying to figure out certain aspects of the alternate universe thing, I feel like God, Death and the Darkness at least should be outside of the multiverse, but I'm not sure they are based on the non-supernatural alternate universe from "French Mistake." 

[ILoveReading]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

On the nature vs. nurture thing - I think what you don't seem to be considering in the Emma situation is that nature vs. nurture is only an argument for not killing a monster before either one has been able to have it's way.  Emma had nature against her since she was half Amazon and she'd already been nurtured to kill her daddy.  Double whammy!  Mile vary, but like I said, it was already too late for Emma.  If they'd gotten her when she was a baby when Dean first went back to the house for his flask (? I think it was his flask) then sure, I could get on board with your argument about Sam giving her a chance.  But by the time she showed up to kill Dean it was too late.  

Will respond in the All seasons thread

[ahrtee]

42 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

As far as Sam (as a baby with Demon blood) and Jack as a nephilim - I think that's where the nature vs. nurture argument really applies.  Sam had the evil nature of the demon blood in him as a baby, and like Jared says in one of his interviews, since he was nurtured properly, he didn't turn out evil (except when he was hyped up on demon blood).  Jack is more or less in the same situation as baby Sam (or baby Emma would have been had they been able to get to her sooner).  He's got 'evil' (as Lucifer is his father) potentially in his nature, but he hasn't been nurtured either way.  

I'm not sure this applies entirely, since (IMO) a few drops of demon blood ingested at 6 months old isn't quite the same as having half-Lucifer DNA.  I also never really understood why demon blood should change a person so radically.  Maybe it's more like a drug that created a virus* that affected aspects of the body and brain (and too much--as in Sam with Ruby--is like an overdose, causing delusions of grandeur and paranoia, as well as dependence).  

But it's still not a part of the child's DNA, so nurture could probably help overcome it more than someone born a psychopath, for instance.  

*ETA: or a drug that caused alterations to the brain (to give the powers) and increased dosages added to the damage.  If so, Chuck should have repaired the damage (though that doesn't explain Sam's relapses--and return of powers--in season 5.)

Edited July 27, 2017 by ahrtee

[RulerofallIsurvey]

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not sure this applies entirely, since (IMO) a few drops of demon blood ingested at 6 months old isn't quite the same as having half-Lucifer DNA.  I also never really understood why demon blood should change a person so radically.  Maybe it's more like a drug that created a virus that affected aspects of the body and brain (and too much--as in Sam with Ruby--is like an overdose, causing delusions of grandeur and paranoia, as well as dependence).  

But it's still not a part of the child's DNA, so nurture could probably help overcome it more than someone born a psychopath, for instance.  

But we don't really know that the demon blood didn't fundamentally change Sam's DNA in some way.  IIR, only the demon blood kids manifested the psychic-kids abilities, right?  Until Magda, that is.  But even she could be explained away by the fact that Azazel was also seeding more generations.  

[ILoveReading]

The problem with Jack is that he's going to be an exceedingly boring character if he's a goody-two-shoes.

Also what do they do with him on hunts?  The show keeps saying Cas can't hunt with the boys because he's too powerful, so what do you do with a character whose 10x as powerful?

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But we don't really know that the demon blood didn't fundamentally change Sam's DNA in some way.  IIR, only the demon blood kids manifested the psychic-kids abilities, right?  Until Magda, that is.  But even she could be explained away by the fact that Azazel was also seeding more generations.  

I think it's a stretch to assume someone suddenly getting psychic powers means their DNA is altered.  (Remember the old saying about "the simplest answer is usually the right one?")   There are others with psychic abilities (see Pamela and Missouri, as well as Fred, who could move objects and manipulate reality) in the SPN world, so I'd assume there are many others with various abilities we just haven't come across, not just demon-blood children.  

We haven't had any indication that any demons have the power to actually alter DNA, especially if they can achieve their results more easily.  (The only reason Azazel might want to alter DNA would be to create future generations of psychic children, and if so, he wouldn't have to bother seeding future generations--he could just sit back and wait for them to be born.)  

AFAIK, current thought is that "psychic ability" comes from different parts of the brain being activated, which can come from injuries, and not necessarily heredity.

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The problem with Jack is that he's going to be an exceedingly boring character if he's a goody-two-shoes.

Also what do they do with him on hunts?  The show keeps saying Cas can't hunt with the boys because he's too powerful, so what do you do with a character whose 10x as powerful?

They're not going to make him a goody-two-shoes.  They have to keep up the angst about "is he or isn't he" (and possibly the Sam-vs-Dean arguments) as long as possible.  *sigh*  I'm guessing we won't know till it's time for his exit (one way or another) if he's good or evil, or some combination thereof.  

ETA:  Didn't really want to merge these two answers, because they're not connected in any way, shape or form, but that's the editor for you :(

Edited July 27, 2017 by ahrtee

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I think it's a stretch to assume someone suddenly getting psychic powers means their DNA is altered.  (Remember the old saying about "the simplest answer is usually the right one?")   There are others with psychic abilities (see Pamela and Missouri, as well as Fred, who could move objects and manipulate reality) in the SPN world, so I'd assume there are many others with various abilities we just haven't come across, not just demon-blood children.  

We haven't had any indication that any demons have the power to actually alter DNA, especially if they can achieve their results more easily.  (The only reason Azazel might want to alter DNA would be to create future generations of psychic children, and if so, he wouldn't have to bother seeding future generations--he could just sit back and wait for them to be born.)  

AFAIK, current thought is that "psychic ability" comes from different parts of the brain being activated, which can come from injuries, and not necessarily heredity.

This being "Supernatural" I'm not sure that our world explanations of psychic ability really apply.  I also don't consider Pamela and Missouri's abilities on the same level as the psychic kids.  I don't remember Fred, so I can't comment on that.  In other fictional worlds, (I'm thinking X-men specifically) altered DNA is exactly where the 'extra' powers and abilities come from, which manifests differently for each person, like the demon blood thing pretty much did, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, give that this is "Supernatural" after all.  ymmv.

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

On the nature vs. nurture thing - I think what you don't seem to be considering in the Emma situation is that nature vs. nurture is only an argument for not killing a monster before either one has been able to have it's way.  Emma had nature against her since she was half Amazon and she'd already been nurtured to kill her daddy.  Double whammy!  Mile vary, but like I said, it was already too late for Emma.  If they'd gotten her when she was a baby when Dean first went back to the house for his flask (? I think it was his flask) then sure, I could get on board with your argument about Sam giving her a chance.  But by the time she showed up to kill Dean it was too late.  

My response from the All seasons thread

Emma was half Amazon, half human(Dean) and was ritualized into killing. Amazons were a different species but the species itself wasn't shown to be evil at birth IIRC.he went from infancy to toddler to young girl to 13 year old in a few days and hadn't killed yet.  Her first kill would have been Dean. 

New thoughts

But going back to my original point in this thread (jumping back and forth has muddied this a bit sorry).

Jared's comments that Sam is apparently making Dean wanting to kill the evil Archangel's spawn into "But would you have killed me" is frought with problems and it's repetitive.

And it's really not good for Sam characterization either. 

Like why is Sam even identifying with Lucifer's Spawn AT ALL. Does he have an overinflated sense of his own importance (TM Death) that he's comparing himself to Lucifer's spawn. OR he is really over-identifying with the nephilim. Sam, you are not the Devil's Spawn and you do not have the power that the Devil's Spawn has. Or is he still not over feeling tainted which OH COME ON /head desk.

If Sam makes the argument that the spawn should live to open the Rift again, fine. But if this just becomes a moral quandary that goes back to Sam's issues AGAIN, you'll find me doing this night the premiere airs.

[ahrtee]

10 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This being "Supernatural" I'm not sure that our world explanations of psychic ability really apply.  I also don't consider Pamela and Missouri's abilities on the same level as the psychic kids.  I don't remember Fred, so I can't comment on that.  In other fictional worlds, (I'm thinking X-men specifically) altered DNA is exactly where the 'extra' powers and abilities come from, which manifests differently for each person, like the demon blood thing pretty much did, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, give that this is "Supernatural" after all.  ymmv.

Fred was the old friend making all the weird things happen in the Loony Tunes ep.  He was described by the boys as a powerful psychic who used to work with their dad.  

It doesn't matter whether SPN-world follows the same rules as ours.  We do know that there are other (non-demon-blood) people with special abilities, even if we don't know how many (I would assume they would stay out of the sight of hunters whenever possible).   I'm not saying altered DNA is out of the realm of possibility, just that it's not necessarily the only answer.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by ahrtee
deleted extra word

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

 I'm not saying altered DNA is out of the realm of possibility, just that it's not necessarily the only answer.  

Agreed.  I never said that it was! :)

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

This being "Supernatural" I'm not sure that our world explanations of psychic ability really apply.  I also don't consider Pamela and Missouri's abilities on the same level as the psychic kids.  I don't remember Fred, so I can't comment on that.  In other fictional worlds, (I'm thinking X-men specifically) altered DNA is exactly where the 'extra' powers and abilities come from, which manifests differently for each person, like the demon blood thing pretty much did, so I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, give that this is "Supernatural" after all.  ymmv.

The show seemed pretty clear that Magda's powers, which were as strong if not stronger than Max's since she could affect people who far away from her, like miles away, were NOT the result of demon blood/DNA changes. So I think both scenarios are applicable in SPN, the scientific/paranormal explanations vs the SUPERNATURAL explanations of demons blood and magic. It's soup to nuts with these writers.

Edited July 27, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Like why is Sam even identifying with Lucifer's Spawn AT ALL. Does he have an overinflated sense of his own importance (TM Death) that he's comparing himself to Lucifer's spawn. OR he is really over-identifying with the nephilim. Sam, you are not the Devil's Spawn and you do not have the power that the Devil's Spawn has. Or is he still not over feeling tainted which OH COME ON /head desk.

I don't think Sam thinks he's the Devil's baby, but I'm guessing Sam will be able to identify with the destined-to-go-bad they both have. I mean, most people around here were assuming the Spawn was evil simply because it was the child of Lucifer; Gordon assumed Sam was evil because he had special powers that were given to him by demons. Isn't that pretty much the reason Sam has identified with monsters in the past?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 but I'm guessing Sam will be able to identify with the destined-to-go-bad they both have.

I could buy this but if it leads to him seeing an attack against Lucifer`s spawn as a slight against himself just because HE overidentifies, I`m annoyed. Especially if that is gonna be validated. Which I think it will be. Sam may disagree but other people can have good reasons to see the Spawn as a valid threat without Sam ever entering the equation. Not every monster situation is about him. If he thinks that, it`s his problem.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The show seemed pretty clear that Magda's powers, which were as strong if not stronger than Max's since she could affect people who far away from her, like miles away, were NOT the result of demon blood/DNA changes.

I don't believe the show made any mention of where or how exactly Magda's powers originated.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't think Sam thinks he's the Devil's baby, but I'm guessing Sam will be able to identify with the destined-to-go-bad they both have. I mean, most people around here were assuming the Spawn was evil simply because it was the child of Lucifer; Gordon assumed Sam was evil because he had special powers that were given to him by demons. Isn't that pretty much the reason Sam has identified with monsters in the past?

 I wasn't actually being serious about Sam thinking he's Lucifer's spawn. He's not insane. 

I was being a little snarky because this is the same freaking WELL WORN territory, that the show has gone over again and again and again with Sam. It's not a new story point or character point.

The difference is that it's now Lucifer's Spawn which IMO, should really mitigate Sam's argument of "Would you have killed me". It's like Sam is arguing a principle of his own life that is not applicable to Spawnifer's.  It's not comparable other than superficially.

For Sam and the show to put that as the question to Dean is kind of absurd IMO because it's essentially putting Dean in the position of saying "Well, of course not Sam. I wouldn't kill you." which if Dean leaves it at that, then that answer will likely override any other logical reason for Dean to want Spawnifer dead, i.e. half of his DNA being the Evil Archangel Powered Lucifer DNA.

If Dean says "No, I wouldn't kill you ...unless you were actually the Devil's spawn" then that will logically turn into the same territory with Sam and Dean talking about how Sam isn't really tainted or evil or bad.

I'm just not interested in that being gone over AGAIN  

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 I wasn't actually being serious about Sam thinking he's Lucifer's spawn. He's not insane. 

I was being a little snarky because this is the same freaking WELL WORN territory, that the show has gone over again and again and again with Sam. It's not a new story point or character point.

The difference is that it's now Lucifer's Spawn which IMO, should really mitigate Sam's argument of "Would you have killed me". It's like Sam is arguing a principle of his own life that is not applicable to Spawnifer's.  It's not comparable other than superficially.

For Sam and the show to put that as the question to Dean is kind of absurd IMO because it's essentially putting Dean in the position of saying "Well, of course not Sam. I wouldn't kill you." which if Dean leaves it at that, then that answer will likely override any other logical reason for Dean to want Spawnifer dead, i.e. half of his DNA being the Evil Archangel Powered Lucifer DNA.

If Dean says "No, I wouldn't kill you ...unless you were actually the Devil's spawn" then that will logically turn into the same territory with Sam and Dean talking about how Sam isn't really tainted or evil or bad.

I'm just not interested in that being gone over AGAIN  

Honestly, I hope Dean comes to Sam's line of thinking pretty quickly especially if Sam immediately points out he might be able to open the gate. Otherwise it'd be pretty hypocritical of Dean considering his friendship with Benny and the crap he gave Sam for "abandoning" him.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Honestly, I hope Dean comes to Sam's line of thinking pretty quickly especially if Sam immediately points out he might be able to open the gate. Otherwise it'd be pretty hypocritical of Dean considering his friendship with Benny

I want it over quickly as well though I don`t particularly care for Dean folding to Sam. It`s not a crime to hold a different opinion or favour a different tactic than Sam and it`s not a slight against him. As for Benny, the "we have to give monsters a chance" approach is pretty rich coming from the guy who called vendetta on Benny out of pretty much jealousy.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't believe the show made any mention of where or how exactly Magda's powers originated.

Hmm, I guess that was my interpretation of the entire episode based on this exchange with Sam. 

Quote

MAGDA: That's not my name. I'm not Magda. I'm the Devil.

SAM: No. No, you're not. You're really not.

MAGDA: He's inside me. I can hear him whispering. He lets me hear what people are thinking. He lets me do things.

SAM: What kind of things? Magda, I'm here... I'm here to help you. Show me. Please.

MAGDA LOOKS AT THE CROSS ON THE WALL. WITH THE POWER OF HER MIND SHE MAKES IT COME OF AWAY FROM THE WALL AND HOVER.

INTERIOR: DINING ROOM OF THE PETERSON HOUSE. SAM’S CELLPHONE RINGS AS THE PETERSON’S STARE AT IT FROM WHERE THEY’RE STANDING.

GAIL: They'll come for us, our children. We need to leave tonight.

INTERIOR: PETERSON’S BASEMENT.

SAM: Magda... You're not the Devil. You're just psychic. There are others out there like you, like – like me. I have powers, too. I'd get these visions sometimes and – and I could move things with my mind.

MAGDA: You can do that?

SAM: Well, no, not anymore, I don't think. But that didn't make me the Devil. It – it – it just made me who I am.

MAGDA: Then you are evil. Mother says I'm evil, 'cause I hurt people.

SAM: Who did you hurt?

MAGDA: I didn't mean it. She was pretty, and she always smiled. And I thought that maybe she could help me. I couldn't talk to her, but I could hear her thoughts. And I thought maybe I could make her hear mine. (Speaking Aramaic) So I prayed. Prok yaw-thi a-law-haw.

OLIVIA (ECHOING MAGDA’S WORDS WHILE IN THE CHURCH) Prok yaw-thi a-law-haw.

MAGDA CRACKS THE WHIP AS OLIVIA REACTS AND SCREAMS. WHILE MAGDA SPEAKS THE SCENE SHOWS OLIVOA WALKING DOWN THE AISLE IN CHURCH.

MAGDA: Tma-'ith bama-'a-ma-ke syawn w-leth a-Thar lma'kum. And I reached out to her... Ishthal-hith bmik-ri ith-char-char 'inki. ...but she never came.

THE SCENE SWITCHES BACK TO THE BASEMENT WHERE MAGDA TALKS AS SHE REMEMBERS.

MAGDA: And I did it again with the delivery boy. Mother says I killed them.

SAM: Magda, that wasn't your fault. You are not the Devil. You're not evil. And it's scary. I-I know it's scary. But you can learn how to control it. You don't ever have to hurt anyone ever again.

Though it's not as explicit as I was obviously misremembering, I still think the gist from Sam is that he's telling her she's not the Devil and not evil, which IMO implied also that her powers were NOT of the Devil or evil. Unless, on the other hand, Sam is saying that even if the powers are imparted from an evil source that doesn't make the impartee (that's not a word, oh well LOL) evil.  Hmmm... I can see it going either way.

My main point in my comment thought, which I still maintain, is that both paranormal/psuedo-science explanations are still at play in SPN ALONG with supernatural/magical explanations.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Hmm, I guess that was my interpretation of the entire episode based on this exchange with Sam. 

I thought Madga was saying "I'm the Devil" because that's what her religiously zealous mother had ingrained in her with the beatings.  I don't think there's anything in that exchange to pinpoint the origin of Madga's powers.  

46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

The difference is that it's now Lucifer's Spawn which IMO, should really mitigate Sam's argument of "Would you have killed me". It's like Sam is arguing a principle of his own life that is not applicable to Spawnifer's.  It's not comparable other than superficially.

Your interpretation may be that the comparison between baby Sam and Jack is only superficial, but isn't that the crux of the whole nature vs. nurture discussion?  Is Jack evil just because he has half of Lucifer's DNA?  Why?  Lucifer didn't start out bad - he was God's favorite!.  So why would his DNA have "evil" imprinted in it?  

39 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I want it over quickly as well

I think it will be resolved pretty quickly.  From the interviews it sounded like it was only a few lines of dialogue, tbh.  So we're probably making much more of this than the show will.  :)

I hope any Sam vs. Dean stuff goes to the appropriate thread.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
crux not gist

[catrox14]

I was thinking more about the one time ally sort of friend thing and I am now putting my money on Jesse the Anti-Christ.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE bring that character back.

[catrox14]

Did Lucifer start out good? He was an archangel who fell and he was Chuck's favorite but that didn't make him "good" from his creation.  And according to Chuck, the Mark didn't make Lucifer bad, it made him more of what he already was, which was apparently was "bad" to begin with, in whatever way it's defined. 

So yes nature vs nurture is at play, the problem though is that this is the most powerful entity in the universe, non God-dess/non Jesse the Anti-Christ division so IMO whatever is bad in Lucifer's DNA is likely to be even more bad. 

[Wayward Son]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking more about the one time ally sort of friend thing and I am now putting my money on Jesse the Anti-Christ.  PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE bring that character back.

Someone else (or was it you LOL) mentioned this theory to Jessica, and she said it was brought up at SDCC and Jensen firmly denied it claiming the anti-Christ storyline was dead and buried. She was there as press.