Spoilers With Speculation

[Airmid]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

See I don't want that either because what does Dean need to be forgiven for that Sam hasn't already forgiven him for? Nothing that I can think of, unless he's holding on to hatred that we don't know about.

Honestly? I don't know if Sam has totally forgiven his brother for everything. Nor has he thanked Dean for what he had to give up (though season 10 is fuzzy and if it was in the finale I kind of see Sam as manipulating his brother over honesty)*. Or told Dean 'I love you' and meant it and it wasn't a veiled 'I need you' instead. And I'm not talking about some long draw out thing of brother angst and mainpain. The appropriate way would be Sam just quietly telling him that, give him the food he brought for the night and them eating dinner. The end.

But Sam really letting go and not harboring anything and Dean getting to feel loved for the first time in I don't know how long with no one lying to him, or doing things behind his back, or just expecting him to agree with half thought out asinine plans? Yeah, I would like that. 

JMO though

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh but wait, Mary is in the other dimension...so he can't! Sigh.

I can feel the fun times ahead. I would rather they just leave her there but sadly no, not going to happen. Let the Mary and Lucifer show of parental angst commence. I'll bring the hard liquor.

*I went and found the ending to season 10 where Dean's about to kill Sam and Sam keeps telling him that's he's good. I mean I know some things are going to be unspoken but when Dean says 'Forgive me' it would have been nice for something. But nah, Sam's been going behind his back for half a season, got Charlie murdered, caused all kinds of troubles and even with the threat of a universe ending amoral entity hovering if Dean is ever freed from the mark he bothers to tell exactly no one of his actions. It's more like he's buying time during those last few seconds and hoping Cas finishes then anything else but that's just me and my cynical view of the world. 

If either of them can openly express anything without accidentally screwing the other over or running off to kill themselves I'll take it. If there was somewhere else that they did manage this I missed it though granted, my lack of interest in some parts of the more recent seasons may be to blame. 

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

Jensen went to them and told them to not kill off Charlie.

 

Is that true? If it is, it shows that Jensen doesn't have as much power bts as some folks think.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

Is that true? If it is, it shows that Jensen doesn't have as much power bts as some folks think.

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't understand it to be true. I have to find it but I remember him talking about Charlie's death and that he rarely goes to the producers to complain about things but he said he went to them about this. And said it was a bad idea. He also said this at AHBL#6 when Bob Singer talked about Charlie's death as where the story took them.

[Idahoforspn]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wouldn't have said it if I didn't understand it to be true.

Uhhohhh. I didn't mean to sound like I didn't believe you.  Sorry!

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have to find it but I remember him talking about Charlie's death and that he rarely goes to the producers to complain about things but he said he went to them about this. And said it was a bad idea. He also said this at AHBL#6 when Bob Singer talked about Charlie's death as where the story took them.

I don't have a lot of use for Singer. I understand killing off Charlie if her episodes didn't do well in the ratings. I didn't care for her but Singer's justification was exactly what Jensen labeled it IMO.

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

 it makes Sam forgive and accept his brother more. 

Possible UO alert!  I don't think Sam needs to forgive or accept Dean any more than he already has and does.  Their relationship seems to be in a good place right now.  I'm happy for that to stay as it is.  

[Jonesy]

To be clear the AND doesn't put Misha above Jensen in credits--just puts him a higher third.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, Jakes said:

To be clear the AND doesn't put Misha above Jensen in credits--just puts him a higher third.

Misha has been 3rd billed regular for the past 4 years. Misha is the 3rd longest tenured member of the cast after J2.  So I don't really understand what you mean by higher third.

[Airmid]

33 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Possible UO alert!  I don't think Sam needs to forgive or accept Dean any more than he already has and does.  Their relationship seems to be in a good place right now.  I'm happy for that to stay as it is.  

I'm going to take part of my response to the Bitterness and UO thread but for speculation:

It wouldn't surprise me that Sam gets to learn all the hardships of trying to get a kid on the right path. That seems to be how it is now and with Sam usually the one who gives those with evil parents a chance (the antichrist waaaaay back in season five comes to mind) I think that's going to be a theme. Giving the kid the benefit of the doubt because his own dad didn't. 

Which honestly I am not excited over. 

[MysteryGuest]

Misha has had the same billing as Mark the past few seasons though, so maybe the "and" was to promote him a bit above Mark.  Don't know why, don't know if that's part of the reason Mark is leaving...don't know much of anything, actually.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, Airmid said:

It wouldn't surprise me that Sam gets to learn all the hardships of trying to get a kid on the right path. That seems to be how it is now and with Sam usually the one who gives those with evil parents a chance (the antichrist waaaaay back in season five comes to mind) I think that's going to be a theme. Giving the kid the benefit of the doubt because his own dad didn't. 

Which honestly I am not excited over. 

On the one hand, I agree with you that it wouldn't really surprise me that it would go that way, since Sam would need to learn a valuable "lesson."  :)

On the other hand, the kid already looked pretty big a few minutes after being born.  If he continues to grow/age at the same rate, I really don't see that there would be much "parenting" needing to be done.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Misha has had the same billing as Mark the past few seasons though, so maybe the "and" was to promote him a bit above Mark.  Don't know why, don't know if that's part of the reason Mark is leaving...don't know much of anything, actually.

He hasn't had the same billing as Mark though.

It's been

Jared
Jensen
Misha
Mark

in that order for whatever episodes all four are in for two seasons and if one or the other of Misha or Mark is not in the episode then it is 3rd billed for that episode. So I just don't really see how this credit for Misha has anything whatsoever to do with Mark leaving.  

[MysteryGuest]

2 minutes ago, Airmid said:

It wouldn't surprise me that Sam gets to learn all the hardships of trying to get a kid on the right path. That seems to be how it is now and with Sam usually the one who gives those with evil parents a chance (the antichrist waaaaay back in season five comes to mind) I think that's going to be a theme. Giving the kid the benefit of the doubt because his own dad didn't. 

I don't want either Sam or Dean raising Jack, frankly.  It's not about giving Sam a chance to see what Dean went through raising him...Sam already knows what his brother did for him and he's thanked him sufficiently.  It's just that I want no part of this entire storyline.  If Jack is bad, then it's just more Lucifer.  And since they already can't kill him, why do we need another being they can't kill?  If Jack is good, then what's the end game?  He helps them destroy Lucifer and then what?  The whole point is to get rid of these omnipotent beings because the story just goes nowhere.  They've neutered Cas for years now because his powers made things too easy for Sam and Dean, and yet these other characters can be all powerful.  I'm so done with all of that.  Please can we go back to hunting monsters and ghosts?

[Reganne]

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

Honestly? I don't know if Sam has totally forgiven his brother for everything. Nor has he thanked Dean for what he had to give up (though season 10 is fuzzy and if it was in the finale I kind of see Sam as manipulating his brother over honesty)*. Or told Dean 'I love you' and meant it and it wasn't a veiled 'I need you' instead. And I'm not talking about some long draw out thing of brother angst and mainpain. The appropriate way would be Sam just quietly telling him that, give him the food he brought for the night and them eating dinner. The end.

 

At the end of bad boys, Sam does thank Dean

"Sam: Dean, thank you — for always being there. For always having my back. I know it hasn’t always been easy.
Dean: I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."

This was after Sam came to realize how Dean lived those 2 months of his life.  The awards.  THe more normal life.  Sam had asked Dean why he left.  Dean said something about it not being for him.  Granted I'm paraphrasing because I don't know the exact words, but this "Thank you" from Sam came right after that conversation and I think Sam knew that deep down, Dean gave it up for him.

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

At the end of bad boys, Sam does thank Dean

"Sam: Dean, thank you — for always being there. For always having my back. I know it hasn’t always been easy.
Dean: I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."

This was after Sam came to realize how Dean lived those 2 months of his life.  The awards.  THe more normal life.  Sam had asked Dean why he left.  Dean said something about it not being for him.  Granted I'm paraphrasing because I don't know the exact words, but this "Thank you" from Sam came right after that conversation and I think Sam knew that deep down, Dean gave it up for him.

And the next year we got The Purge.

[Airmid]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

On the other hand, the kid already looked pretty big a few minutes after being born.  If he continues to grow/age at the same rate, I really don't see that there would be much "parenting" needing to be done.  

I'm hoping he reaches adulthood in the first five minutes of the first episode.

Though, age wise I don't think it would matter. It's more of Sam 'teaching him how to be human and showing him the normal human life' kind of thing I foresee. Just /sigh

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

I don't want either Sam or Dean raising Jack, frankly.  It's not about giving Sam a chance to see what Dean went through raising him...Sam already knows what his brother did for him and he's thanked him sufficiently.  It's just that I want no part of this entire storyline.  If Jack is bad, then it's just more Lucifer.  And since they already can't kill him, why do we need another being they can't kill?  If Jack is good, then what's the end game?  He helps them destroy Lucifer and then what?  The whole point is to get rid of these omnipotent beings because the story just goes nowhere.  They've neutered Cas for years now because his powers made things too easy for Sam and Dean, and yet these other characters can be all powerful.  I'm so done with all of that.  Please can we go back to hunting monsters and ghosts?

So much yes. If they can't balance out their powerful beings and have to take away everything that makes them powerful beings, then they need to go. And they keep taking the mystery and awesomeness out of some of these magically driven beings. It just, well it just sucks and I wish they would stop filling the show with them if they don't know how to handle them.

 

4 minutes ago, Reganne said:

"Sam: Dean, thank you — for always being there. For always having my back. I know it hasn’t always been easy.
Dean: I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about."

While being possessed by Gadreel, so given Dean's paranoia I can kind of see him not thinking that counts. And I would say that it only just dawned on Sam maybe how much Dean had given up, but probably not the extent of it.

I'm not saying that Sam has to understand and accept every little scrap of their childhoods together or that Dean has to do that for Sam, but Sam still lied to him this season, still screwed up and almost completely hosed them over. Dean already had his mom lying and almost killing them. Somehow, someway, that kind of crap has to stop. That's probably my core issue. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And the next year we got The Purge.

Make that a few episodes later...like 5 ....

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, Airmid said:

but Sam still lied to him this season, still screwed up and almost completely hosed them over.

And Sam apologized for that too.  I do agree with you that I'd like to see all the lying between brothers stop.  (It goes both ways - since if it doesn't stop, next year, S13, it will be Dean's turn to lie horribly to Sam again.  Won't that be fun? //snark)

[Reganne]

4 minutes ago, Airmid said:

 

 

While being possessed by Gadreel, so given Dean's paranoia I can kind of see him not thinking that counts. And I would say that it only just dawned on Sam maybe how much Dean had given up, but probably not the extent of it.

I'm not saying that Sam has to understand and accept every little scrap of their childhoods together or that Dean has to do that for Sam, but Sam still lied to him this season, still screwed up and almost completely hosed them over. Dean already had his mom lying and almost killing them. Somehow, someway, that kind of crap has to stop. That's probably my core issue. 

It wasn't Gadreel talking to him though so I don't see why it wouldn't count.  

Edited May 31, 2017 by Reganne

[Airmid]

12 minutes ago, Reganne said:

It wasn't Gadreel talking to him though so I don't see why it wouldn't count.  

To Dean it would, honestly because he's probably being eaten up with guilt. The guy has admitted to Sam he's had problems with reality and knowing there's an angel in there that Sam doesn't know about, well I can see Dean not accepting what Sam's saying. So to Sam it would count, not so much Dean simply because his brother doesn't know what fresh hell he's been put in.

That's my point, it would be nice to see a low key thirty seconds where it actually is honest without one of them already lying to another, or without one of them being infested by something etc. Sometimes things have to be said, not just these manpain moments where they stare at each other. That works when going into battle or finding out someone survived. Not so much deep seated issues festering.

Hmmm, maybe that's why they keep screwing each other over and the world - they can't talk to other. 

15 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And Sam apologized for that too.  I do agree with you that I'd like to see all the lying between brothers stop.  (It goes both ways - since if it doesn't stop, next year, S13, it will be Dean's turn to lie horribly to Sam again.  Won't that be fun? //snark)

Ugh, I'm so excited. *gets out emergency whiskey* Definitely, just cannot wait...

[Jonesy]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Misha has been 3rd billed regular for the past 4 years. Misha is the 3rd longest tenured member of the cast after J2.  So I don't really understand what you mean by higher third.

Some people were saying the AND puts Misha above Jensen in the credits...which is false.  So yes Misha stays third but the AND is a slightly higher credit title than just going third in the credits.  That is what I meant.

 

And by the way think that has NOTHING to do with Mark leaving.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Jakes

[Reganne]

5 minutes ago, Airmid said:

To Dean it would, honestly because he's probably being eaten up with guilt. The guy has admitted to Sam he's had problems with reality and knowing there's an angel in there that Sam doesn't know about, well I can see Dean not accepting what Sam's saying. So to Sam it would count, not so much Dean simply because his brother doesn't know what fresh hell he's been put in.

That's my point, it would be nice to see a low key thirty seconds where it actually is honest without one of them already lying to another.

Fair enough on Dean's part. I don't think this one is on Sam though.  

[CluelessDrifter]

33 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't want either Sam or Dean raising Jack, frankly.  It's not about giving Sam a chance to see what Dean went through raising him...Sam already knows what his brother did for him and he's thanked him sufficiently.  It's just that I want no part of this entire storyline.  If Jack is bad, then it's just more Lucifer.  And since they already can't kill him, why do we need another being they can't kill?  If Jack is good, then what's the end game?  He helps them destroy Lucifer and then what?  The whole point is to get rid of these omnipotent beings because the story just goes nowhere.  They've neutered Cas for years now because his powers made things too easy for Sam and Dean, and yet these other characters can be all powerful.  I'm so done with all of that.  Please can we go back to hunting monsters and ghosts?

If they have Jack not be evil, something I've never thought they would really make him, then I'm getting a twist on a Cousin Oliver trope feel from the story line only they took the aging up of the character to extremes, which really isn't a good sign.  

[Airmid]

30 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Fair enough on Dean's part. I don't think this one is on Sam though.  

Nah, I think Sam was telling the truth in that one. Kind of a shame we got episodes like The Purge in the same season later on after that. Or that that episode had to happen while Sam was still possessed and the fallout from Gadreel hadn't happened yet. 

32 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

If they have Jack not be evil, something I've never thought they would really make him, then I'm getting a twist on a Cousin Oliver trope feel from the story line only they took the aging up of the character to extremes, which really isn't a good sign.  

Do we know why he was born so old outside of archangel kid? I mean Cas has seen other Nephilim in his life span, been around for their purge and was thinking this was going to be closer to a baby human given how he was acting and what him and Kelly got. Kind of sad and awkward that Jack (snort) has a nursery he's hiding in as a tween.

I think I would have tolerated this better if Sproutifer didn't talk, at least at first. Maybe aged up over the course of the season but I suppose that would have been too much like Amara, even if it made more sense.

[The Morning Star]

Nothing shown to us so far has implied anything but the fact that this "child" is well aware of his surroundings.

 

I just can't see him as anything but a villain, he's either evil like his father or just does stuff that puts him opposed to the boys.period.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

Nothing shown to us so far has implied anything but the fact that this "child" is well aware of his surroundings.

 

I just can't see him as anything but a villain, he's either evil like his father or just does stuff that puts him opposed to the boys.period.

He managed to walk from Kelly's room to the nursery and I'm guessing he's the one that put Kelly into her dead repose.

[The Morning Star]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He managed to walk from Kelly's room to the nursery and I'm guessing he's the one that put Kelly into her dead repose.

I'm convinced he also caused the rift to entrap his father.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

I'm convinced he also caused the rift to entrap his father.

Oh that's interesting. Hmm I hadn't thought about that

[The Morning Star]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh that's interesting. Hmm I hadn't thought about that

I'm guessing he'l end up being a master strategist/puppet master who despite meaning to purge the suffering from world chooses a path that contradicts the principle of free will and/or a Cain like purge of possible "undesirables".

Neither of which either brothers would put up with.

 

And that's the best case scenario for him IMO.

[Wayward Son]

If this image is anything to by it looks as though Mark Sheppard has cancelled appearing at Phoenix Con, or was he never meant to be there in the first place? 

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DBHM7uUU0AAbpjz?format=jpg

 

ETA: Never mind, apparently he wasn't included as Mark opted against allowing his panel to be live streamed. 

Edited May 31, 2017 by Wayward Son

[catrox14]

Mark is still listed as a guest on their website.

https://www.creationent.com/cal/supernatural_az.htm

[Wayward Son]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Mark is still listed as a guest on their website.

https://www.creationent.com/cal/supernatural_az.htm

Yeah, I just edited the post :) . Apparently, he opted against allowing his panel to be live streamed, which is why he wasn't involved in the live stream related promotion.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

Yeah, I just edited the post :) . Apparently, he opted against allowing his panel to be live streamed, which is why he wasn't involved in the live stream related promotion.

Ahhh, that makes sense. I wonder why he did that. Maybe he's all for the fans just filming on their phones like they've always done?

[Airmid]

3 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

Nothing shown to us so far has implied anything but the fact that this "child" is well aware of his surroundings.

 

I just can't see him as anything but a villain, he's either evil like his father or just does stuff that puts him opposed to the boys.period.

If they go that route, I'm hoping for the latter. I could see a super powerful entity, after seeing what's wrong in the world, try to fix it by force. That's understandable to both us and the brothers and could at least get some empathy from the audience. I could get behind a sympathetic antagonist. 

The cynical part of me doubts they are that creative and it's either all evil all the time or Sam raising the kid/tween/whatever. Blah on both fronts.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

I'm guessing he'l end up being a master strategist/puppet master who despite meaning to purge the suffering from world chooses a path that contradicts the principle of free will and/or a Cain like purge of possible "undesirables".

I don't know why he'd necessarily be a master strategist?  Because his father is Lucifer?  Well, that guy's not exactly a master strategist either imo (Let's see: Dad had Michael throw him in the cage because he got out of hand, Sam threw him back in the cage, Sam and Dean and Roweena would have had him back in the cage again except for Crowley's interference...Dude gets outplayed a lot) so where would Jack get it from?  ;)

But seriously - Lucifer also didn't start out evil.  I thought, according to SPN, it was the Mark of Cain which turned him full evil by amplifying his already bad traits.  But still - he didn't start out that way.  And the other nephilim we saw whom Cas killed with Boogertron wasn't automatically evil.  She was working as a waitress for Pete's sake (instead of using whatever 'powers' she probably had for her own benefit) and just wanted to be left alone.  

Then again, that smirk on Jack's face when Sam walked in the room: it didn't look good.  

[rue721]

11 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

On the one hand, I agree with you that it wouldn't really surprise me that it would go that way, since Sam would need to learn a valuable "lesson."  :)

On the other hand, the kid already looked pretty big a few minutes after being born.  If he continues to grow/age at the same rate, I really don't see that there would be much "parenting" needing to be done.  

Wouldn't it be hilarious if Jack continued to grow at the same rate as he has so far, so he gets old and dies within like 20 minutes of being born.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know why he'd necessarily be a master strategist?  Because his father is Lucifer?  Well, that guy's not exactly a master strategist either imo

Heh, like I said in the episode thread, Lucifer is the biggest dumbass of all time!  He loses even when he wins. ;)

3 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Wouldn't it be hilarious if Jack continued to grow at the same rate as he has so far, so he gets old and dies within like 20 minutes of being born.

That would be hilarious!!

I'm still holding out hope the spawn is powerless. I know he was powerful as a fetus, but I still think it would be far funnier if he turned out to be a dud. ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Wouldn't it be hilarious if Jack continued to grow at the same rate as he has so far, so he gets old and dies within like 20 minutes of being born.

Ha!  That would actually be a pretty good twist.  Everyone is expecting Jack to be a major character next year - at least for part of the season. It would be a surprise if he did age rapidly then flamed out (too powerful to be contained and it burned his physical body up) by the second ep, so that when Lucifer finally gets out of the AU (which he will) he comes back to find his kid dead.  

[Wayward Son]

Interesting fact, whether it actually means anything or not remains to be seen, Mark retweeted a happy birthday from the Doctor Who account, but completely ignored the happy birthday from Jim Michaels. 

[SueB]

Trying to sort the 'speculation' vs 'spoilers' as currently understood:

S13 ACTORS:

Definitely Back:
- Jared & Jensen
- Misha -- although character change is a definite possibility (to an AU self or some other variation)

Highly Likely due to cliffhanger:
- Sam Smith
- Mark Pellegrino
- Jim Beaver as Alt Universe Bobby

Definitely Gone:
- Mark Sheppard

Unclear based on the nature of death on Supernatural:
- Ruth Connell

CHARACTERS:

Still alive significant character with out specifics plans:
- Jody, Donna, Claire, Alex, Garth, Walt

Definitely dead:
Roy, all named BMoL characters
 

Did I miss anyone?

As for writers & producers, I've seen NO notices of any departures. That's not surprising because I'm sure that most had more than 1 year contract. But Bobo Berens has been there long enough that I was worried he might move on.  Looks like he's still there, however. --  I'm a big fan of Bobo Berens and that he's still writing (based on a tweet exchange b/w him and Dabb regarding giving up coffee), makes me VERY happy.  -- I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but I love the guy. 
 

Note: on the "and" discussion. I looked at SAG contracts, industry websites, and a few dozen random TV-related sites.  As far as I can tell, it's all a negotiated special status but is not indicative of equal to the leads. 

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

As for writers & producers, I've seen NO notices of any departures. That's not surprising because I'm sure that most had more than 1 year contract. But Bobo Berens has been there long enough that I was worried he might move on.  Looks like he's still there, however. --  I'm a big fan of Bobo Berens and that he's still writing (based on a tweet exchange b/w him and Dabb regarding giving up coffee), makes me VERY happy.  -- I know he's not everyone's cup of tea but I love the guy. 

I love Berens too. I think it was posted in TPTB thread that the writer's room is unchanged for S13...I'd have to dig around and I really should be finishing up going through my bike race pictures for work though. 

Why does work have to suck all the fun out of life? ;)

[The Morning Star]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know why he'd necessarily be a master strategist?  Because his father is Lucifer?  Well, that guy's not exactly a master strategist either imo (Let's see: Dad had Michael throw him in the cage because he got out of hand, Sam threw him back in the cage, Sam and Dean and Roweena would have had him back in the cage again except for Crowley's interference...Dude gets outplayed a lot) so where would Jack get it from?  ;)

But seriously - Lucifer also didn't start out evil.  I thought, according to SPN, it was the Mark of Cain which turned him full evil by amplifying his already bad traits.  But still - he didn't start out that way.  And the other nephilim we saw whom Cas killed with Boogertron wasn't automatically evil.  She was working as a waitress for Pete's sake (instead of using whatever 'powers' she probably had for her own benefit) and just wanted to be left alone.  

Then again, that smirk on Jack's face when Sam walked in the room: it didn't look good.  

No you didn't read what I said carefully, I said the Nephilim will be a villain, Evil? I don't know.

 

I firmly speculate that Jack has been very aware of his surroundings for the majority of time:

-He saw a possible future.

-He manipulated Cas to use him as his very own puppet.

-Killed Dagon to escape his dad as he felt the threat.

-Opened a rift in space time to entrap his father getting Cas killed in the process.

-Despite showing possessive of the ability to resurrect humans, did not resurrect his own mother.

 

Now I find it silly to assume the boy is gonna "learn" anything from Sam or Dean or Cas (if he can and chooses to rebuild him).

Even if he truely means to create a universe without pain and suffering which is disputed at best, doing so is impossible without undermining the freedom of will or attempting a large scale purge of possible undesirables, neither of which are stuff either of the brother son would put up with.

So evil or not evil, this creature cannot be on the same side as Sam and Dean unless he is to be depowered or contained or killed.

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Heh, like I said in the episode thread, Lucifer is the biggest dumbass of all time!  He loses even when he wins. ;)

That would be hilarious!!

I'm still holding out hope the spawn is powerless. I know he was powerful as a fetus, but I still think it would be far funnier if he turned out to be a dud. ;)

His hubris and pride is his biggest failure, without them he's be virtually undefeatable.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

No you didn't read what I said carefully, I said the Nephilim will be a villain, Evil? I don't know.

Actually, I did:

12 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

I just can't see him as anything but a villain,he's either evil like his father or just does stuff that puts him opposed to the boys.period.

Like I said, Lucifer didn't start off evil, so I don't know why Jack would/could automatically be "evil like his father".  

[Airmid]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Ha!  That would actually be a pretty good twist.  Everyone is expecting Jack to be a major character next year - at least for part of the season. It would be a surprise if he did age rapidly then flamed out (too powerful to be contained and it burned his physical body up) by the second ep, so that when Lucifer finally gets out of the AU (which he will) he comes back to find his kid dead.  

But then we'd be back to square one with a pissed off Lucifer flouncing around wanting to burn Daddy's toys but with even more rage/angst/pain then before.

*shudder*

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But seriously - Lucifer also didn't start out evil.  I thought, according to SPN, it was the Mark of Cain which turned him full evil by amplifying his already bad traits.  But still - he didn't start out that way.  And the other nephilim we saw whom Cas killed with Boogertron wasn't automatically evil.  She was working as a waitress for Pete's sake (instead of using whatever 'powers' she probably had for her own benefit) and just wanted to be left alone.  

Well, to be fair, in a lot of telling's of Lucifer, even in this show back in season five before all the MoC stuff, it was never implied that Lucifer was just made evil. His downfall was his pride and arrogance. Even Michael said they were happy once and that he still loved his brother. 

If they say Sproutifer was corrupted by Lucifer's corruption from carrying the lock for Amara and needs to be purged in which Sam can relate considering his own Azazel sized taint upon his soul, my eyes will be in danger of rolling so hard that they fly across the room and get stuck under the couch. I'll have to fight for cat to get them back so please show, don't do this.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, Airmid said:

But then we'd be back to square one with a pissed off Lucifer flouncing around wanting to burn Daddy's toys but with even more rage/angst/pain then before.

Well, he already does, (said so himself in S12) so I really don't see this as 'back to square one'.  

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

If they say Sproutifer was corrupted by Lucifer's corruption from carrying the lock for Amara

I think it would be one of the most boring things ever if Jack (son of the Devil!) was Evil just because Lucifer is evil.  That's way too easy to go that route.

[Airmid]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think it would be one of the most boring things ever if Jack (son of the Devil!) was Evil just because Lucifer is evil.  That's way too easy to go that route.

I was thinking more evil tendencies that need to be curbed like Sam (and maybe an extension like the anti-Christ kid back in season 5). 

Honest sad moment here: this show has been taking the easy route for the long time and likes parallels. So Mary/Lucifer alternate world with parental angst, Sam/Sproutifer with not great fathers and taint they must over come.

And Dean, well he'll sob over Cas, wring his hands and sleep with a trench coat as a pillow since they murdered anyone he could have been interacting with. 

[Jonesy]

3 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I was thinking more evil tendencies that need to be curbed like Sam (and maybe an extension like the anti-Christ kid back in season 5). 

Honest sad moment here: this show has been taking the easy route for the long time and likes parallels. So Mary/Lucifer alternate world with parental angst, Sam/Sproutifer with not great fathers and taint they must over come.

And Dean, well he'll sob over Cas, wring his hands and sleep with a trench coat as a pillow since they murdered anyone he could have been interacting with. 

Cas will be back...there is not much worries over that.

[Airmid]

11 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Cas will be back...there is not much worries over that.

I'm not. That was more of a tongue in cheek reference to season seven where Cas did come back but it took a bit and Dean hauled his trench coat everywhere with fanfic being written that he slept with it as a pillow/blanket/whatever. 

As it stands right now, given their penchant for parallels, Dean's got zippo and unless they totally don't care about fans and bring Cas back immediately, he'll have zippo for quite a while. Hence my sad, cynical and snarky viewpoint of next year's season.

Edited May 31, 2017 by Airmid

[SueB]

7 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

I guess we can agree to disagree then.

I tend to think we were not born equally, some of us are better, some of us are worse, some of us are saints some of us are well.....serial killers.

If we were truly born as blank pieces of paper that are to be filled by our relatives, then children of thieves would be thieves, children of good people would be good people and etc and we both know it doesn't work like that does it?

Interesting discussion.  I would point out that the entire series has emphasized nuture (Sam is good) over nature (Sam is tainted by demon blood).

[The Morning Star]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Interesting discussion.  I would point out that the entire series has emphasized nuture (Sam is good) over nature (Sam is tainted by demon blood).

Actually I think it has proven the opposite, Sam is still a good person despite being tainted by demon blood after he was born.

While many others may have failed he didn't...outside may have an influence in what's visible about someone but at the end of the day, what's inside takes the cake.

Edited May 31, 2017 by The Morning Star

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Interesting fact, whether it actually means anything or not remains to be seen, Mark retweeted a happy birthday from the Doctor Who account, but completely ignored the happy birthday from Jim Michaels. 

You know, maybe he is going to be the 13th Doctor. Peter Capaldi is leaving this season and Mark is already the voice of BBC America. That would be pretty amazing.