Spoilers With Speculation

[Demented Daisy]

22 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I keep seeing people saying they think she'll switch sides, but I'm not sure what I'm missing here. I get the distinct impression she dug her heels in deeper after her encounter with the Winchesters and won't ever be able to see their side of it. I'm also thinking she's going to be a sort of counterpoint to Mary, so I'm not sure she'll be switching sides. It could happen, but I'm not sure I see it yet?

I'm not basing my spec on anything they've shown us of her yet.  More that redemption is one of SPN's series-long themes and almost every adversary the Winchesters have faced (unless they died) became an ally at some point.  Even Lucifer was a temporary ally.  

I also think it more likely for the Winchesters to empathize/sympathize with an individual over a faceless, grandiose organization.  The Winchesters are rebels, you know?  They're not going to side with the establishment.  ;-)

[Bessie]

9 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

I'm not basing my spec on anything they've shown us of her yet.  More that redemption is one of SPN's series-long themes and almost every adversary the Winchesters have faced (unless they died) became an ally at some point.  Even Lucifer was a temporary ally.  

They are pretty big on the redemption!yay thing. I hope if this is where they're headed with Toni, that they spoil it. After last season and the boys teaming up with lucifer - the way it was written - I don't want to watch that again. If thats what they're thinking, and it's entirely possible, I will be praying to the spoiler gods to please, please let us know. Unless Sam, Dean or Mary (or, all three can tag team her; I'm not picky) rips into her for what she's done to them, I don't think my blood pressure can handle Lucifer redux! 

[Aeryn13]

Dabb and Singer have said that the MOL or some of them would be sometimes enemies, sometimes allies. That`s basically what they do with Crowley and Rowena so it`s probably gonna be in the same vein. When they have their "team-up" phases, they all let bygones be bygones. Last Season there wasn`t only Lucifer, noone batted an eyelash that Dean had to talk to Metatron. At least this was all equal opportunity neglect.  

I don`t really care about Lady Deadeyes and if she gets a redemption or not. In terms of the assassin, it depends how heavily the mid-Season Finale focuses on Lucifer and how to deal with him. Otherwise, he would be a likely contender to be featured heavily in this ep.

Neither this nor the Mary-"story" is actually interesting. I can only hope they don`t bring the stupid powers back.    

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, goldy said:

I get what you're saying but you have to remember that from what she knows about them they are, in her eyes, no better than any monster out there. They're human, yes, but (in her mind) they ruin the world, they befriend monsters and set them free on the world. Of curse she's totally wrong about them, but the way she sees them NOW, is the same way Sam and/or Dean will see a demon that they torturer, like it doesn't deserve mercy or compassion.

Well, look at it this way. Hitler, in his own mind, had very good reasons for hating and wanting to exterminate the Jews. In his own narrow-minded and fucked up way, he was right too. You think the show could ever present Hitler's actions with regard to his hate as being acceptable?

I'm just saying, I think Lady Toni has every right to see the Winchester's as she does--it's a very narrow-minded and fucked up view of them, but in that narrow-minded and fucked up way, she's not wrong--but her actions already are out of proportion to that belief. I think the show set her up to cross a line she can't cross back over. I think she's going to be the leader of the extremist group the Winchesters have to bring down by the end of the season.

ETA: didn't see there was another page, but I think the redemption will be for Mr. Ketch. I think they set him up to be a soldier taking orders, but at some point he'll see those orders as wrong and switch teams bringing the more moderate BMoL with him. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[goldy]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dabb and Singer have said that the MOL or some of them would be sometimes enemies, sometimes allies.

I think that in a case of a "no doubt about it" monster, like say; a vampire that already killed several people then, sure, they'll be allies. But if they'll have another "grey area" case like Magda then they'll be enemies.

I think I read somewhere that Garth is coming back this year, and I'm pretty sure that the writers will create a storyline where the BMoL will go after him and Sam and Dean will try and help him.

53 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, look at it this way. Hitler, in his own mind, had very good reasons for hating and wanting to exterminate the Jews. In his own narrow-minded and fucked up way, he was right too. You think the show could ever present Hitler's actions with regard to his hate as being acceptable?

I'm just saying, I think Lady Toni has every right to see the Winchester's as she does--it's a very narrow-minded and fucked up view of them, but in that narrow-minded and fucked up way, she's not wrong--but her actions already are out of proportion to that belief. I think the show set her up to cross a line she can't cross back over. I think she's going to be the leader of the extremist group the Winchesters have to bring down by the end of the season.

ETA: didn't see there was another page, but I think the redemption will be for Mr. Ketch. I think they set him up to be a soldier taking orders, but at some point he'll see those orders as wrong and switch teams bringing the more moderate BMoL with him. 

I don't think it's a fair comparison. I don't see Lady T. being as bad as Hitler. His scale of evilness was much much greater! you can't compare a man (I won't even call him a man, a monster is more like it) that was responsible for the killing of MILLIONS a man that brought the entire world to its knees, to a woman that tortured two people. Was she wrong? DEFINITELY! but she's still redeemable in my eyes. Is  Hitler redeemable? As a human been and a proud jew I say; NO, NEVER!

Edited November 6, 2016 by goldy

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, goldy said:

I don't think it's a fair comparison. I don't see Lady T. being as bad as Hitler. His scale of evilness was much much greater! you can't compare a man (I won't even call him a man, a monster is more like it) that was responsible for the killing of MILLIONS a man that brought the entire world to its knees, to a women that tortured two people. Was she wrong? DEFINITELY! but she's still redeemable in my eyes. Is  Hitler redeemable? As a human been and a proud jew I say; NO, NEVER!

But, could she not be the Hitler of the supernatural? I mean, it sounds like the BMoL are capturing, torturing and experimenting on the supernatural simply because they are scared of them and/or hate them and not because they are actually acting as monsters. They're essentially doing what the Nazis did to the Jews. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they have some of them locked in camps somewhere.

To me, what Lady Toni did with the Winchesters shows me she's capable of Hitler-level evil. She didn't have any actual reason or need to capture or torture Sam. She did it simple because she felt she could and she wanted to. If she was really doing it for information, it would've been far easier and smarter for her to have just asked. I think Lady Toni will end up being a Hilter of sorts by the end of the season. 

I think the show is turning the tables here and making it so Sam and Dean will essentially have to save the supernatural this season. When the show started, anything supernatural was considered a monster and/or evil. Over the years, they've learned that line isn't always easy to see. I think this season they're basically saying, everything we know isn't necessarily wrong, but it doesn't show us the whole picture and might lead us to the wrong conclusion.

[Aeryn13]

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When the show started, anything supernatural was considered a monster and/or evil. Over the years, they've learned that line isn't always easy to see. I think this season they're basically saying, everything we know isn't necessarily wrong, but it doesn't show us the whole picture and might lead us to the wrong conclusion.

But that was because they usually find their cases by news about some gruesome, unexplained murders and bloodshed. Nice "monsters" and creatures just living their lifes wouldn`t really make any waves to be found by hunters. And it would look silly if every single case now had human perpetrators and some misunderstood supernatural being. It would throw the previous 11 Seasons out of whack.

They already expositioned that the Brit!MOL approach is to use supernatural means to find anything supernatural whatsoever and then kill it. Interesting thought, do their dead not get taken by reapers then?

The Winchesters already do not do this. If they were, they would scry over a map somewhere and then go to "X marks the spot" to kill whatever thing lived there, deaths or not. So, I think they are already there. They hunt because something somewhere needs to be hunted. What that is, they find out by working the case. Moving any more from that place into "the poor, poor supernatural" would just make it "hunters are such monsters" and invalidate basically the show.     

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The Winchesters already do not do this. If they were, they would scry over a map somewhere and then go to "X marks the spot" to kill whatever thing lived there, deaths or not. So, I think they are already there. They hunt because something somewhere needs to be hunted. What that is, they find out by working the case. Moving any more from that place into "the poor, poor supernatural" would just make it "hunters are such monsters" and invalidate basically the show. 

I don't know, look at Magda. She was supernatural, but they didn't kill her, in fact, they saved her. I think the rest of the season is going to be more of that sort of thing, seeing there is plenty of supernatural out there that's not necessarily evil. Back in the day, the Winchesters hunted more out of their own fear and hatred of the supernatural. That was John's entire raison d'tere and he passed it along to them when they were kids. But, now they're grown up and their reasons for hunting are less about fear and hate, IMO; they just want to help people now, not wipe out every demon, monster or angel from existence. 

[Aeryn13]

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 I think the rest of the season is going to be more of that sort of thing, seeing there is plenty of supernatural out there that's not necessarily evil. 

And I think that would be a big, big mistake. This show with the premise of two hunting brothers doesn`t lend itself to the "supernatural is mainly good". Then it makes hunters, any hunters, wrong. It makes the entire profession mostly evil if the "enemy" is mostly good. 

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Back in the day, the Winchesters hunted more out of their own fear and hatred of the supernatural. 

I don`t really see this. And even if, that still doesn`t negate them finding their cases via reports about violent deaths. When Dean said in Season 1 "saving people, hunting things", not only was the saving people already part of the mission statement but it came first. They took a job because they thought something supernatural was going on there that was killing people. That means by necessity wanting to save more people from being killed. Nothing was or is wrong with that.  

Last thing I want is a "lesson" to be learned about something that was IMO fine from the start. 

The Brit!MOL are doing it wrong, obviously. So they should learn the lesson. The Winchesters have never done it that way. And they have let supernatural beings let go in the past. Even as far back as Season 2. 

[Dobian]

6 hours ago, goldy said:

I get what you're saying but you have to remember that from what she knows about them they are, in her eyes, no better than any monster out there. They're human, yes, but (in her mind) they ruin the world, they befriend monsters and set them free on the world. Of curse she's totally wrong about them, but the way she sees them NOW, is the same way Sam and/or Dean will see a demon that they torturer, like it doesn't deserve mercy or compassion.

Well it's not about her opinion of them being slanted, it's the way she gets enjoyment out of making them suffer.  They're still human beings.  It's the joy at torturing someone that has nothing to do with what Sam and Dean may have done, but everything about her mental makeup.  That's sociopath behavior.  I know that Sam and Dean have tortured their fair share of demons and monsters, but you never see them getting a kick out of the horrific things they do to them like she does.  At least I never got that impression out of one of those scenes.  They have a humanity that she lacks.

[goldy]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, could she not be the Hitler of the supernatural? I mean, it sounds like the BMoL are capturing, torturing and experimenting on the supernatural simply because they are scared of them and/or hate them and not because they are actually acting as monsters. They're essentially doing what the Nazis did to the Jews. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they have some of them locked in camps somewhere.

To me, what Lady Toni did with the Winchesters shows me she's capable of Hitler-level evil. She didn't have any actual reason or need to capture or torture Sam. She did it simple because she felt she could and she wanted to. If she was really doing it for information, it would've been far easier and smarter for her to have just asked. I think Lady Toni will end up being a Hilter of sorts by the end of the season. 

I think the show is turning the tables here and making it so Sam and Dean will essentially have to save the supernatural this season. When the show started, anything supernatural was considered a monster and/or evil. Over the years, they've learned that line isn't always easy to see. I think this season they're basically saying, everything we know isn't necessarily wrong, but it doesn't show us the whole picture and might lead us to the wrong conclusion.

I don't see it that way. For me the jews and other minorities that were killed by Hitler, they were totally innocent. They were just like other people, they had families and jobs and mortgages just like other German citizens, a lot of them didn't even practise the faith. They were killed simply because a mad man needed a scape goat in his quest for power and glory. There's no grey areas here, only black and white. The BMoL on the other hand, they fight creators that bring real (well, real in the TV world) pain and suffering to the world but some of those creators can control themselves and not hurt other people, so in the contact of THAT world there are grey areas. So while I see Hitler as being totally wrong and unredeemable, I can see the BMoL as mostly right and from the info we got so far, it is my opinion that some of them can be redeemable.

 

1 minute ago, Dobian said:

Well it's not about her opinion of them being slanted, it's the way she gets enjoyment out of making them suffer.  They're still human beings.  It's the joy at torturing someone that has nothing to do with what Sam and Dean may have done, but everything about her mental makeup.  That's sociopath behavior.  I know that Sam and Dean have tortured their fair share of demons and monsters, but you never see them getting a kick out of the horrific things they do to them like she does.  At least I never got that impression out of one of those scenes.  They have a humanity that she lacks.

I didn't get the feeling that Lady T. enjoyed the torture. She kept asking Sam "Can we end this?" even that other woman that helped her with the torturing (I forgot her name) asked Sam "Are you really gonna make me do that?" 

I didn't get the impression that they enjoyed it but rather that they felt that they have to do it because Sam is dangerous and posses very important information that they need to have.

[DittyDotDot]

46 minutes ago, goldy said:

For me the jews and other minorities that were killed by Hitler, they were totally innocent. They were just like other people, they had families and jobs and mortgages just like other German citizens, a lot of them didn't even practise the faith.  

Is that really different than the premise the BMoL are working on? Many of the things they call monsters are not in fact practicing monsters and haven't done anything. They are capturing and torturing them simply because of their race and for no other reason.

46 minutes ago, goldy said:

I didn't get the feeling that Lady T. enjoyed the torture. She kept asking Sam "Can we end this?" even that other woman that helped her with the torturing (I forgot her name) asked Sam "Are you really gonna make me do that?" 

I didn't get the impression that they enjoyed it but rather that they felt that they have to do it because Sam is dangerous and posses very important information that they need to have.

If she really thought Sam was so dangerous, she should've just killed him and been done with it. And, if he really possessed important information, she should've just asked. Instead she set up a situation to make sure he wouldn't talk so she could feel justified in her taking it to the next level. I think she used the guise of getting information as a way to justify her desire to do it.

Personally, I'm not sure she necessarily enjoyed torturing, but she was not at all horrified by it either. I think she was fascinated by it all and it was like a sort of experiment to her. Which is messed up and sociopathic, if you ask me.

Edited November 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, could she not be the Hitler of the supernatural? I mean, it sounds like the BMoL are capturing, torturing and experimenting on the supernatural simply because they are scared of them and/or hate them and not because they are actually acting as monsters. They're essentially doing what the Nazis did to the Jews. I wouldn't be surprised to learn they have some of them locked in camps somewhere.

To me, what Lady Toni did with the Winchesters shows me she's capable of Hitler-level evil. She didn't have any actual reason or need to capture or torture Sam. She did it simple because she felt she could and she wanted to. If she was really doing it for information, it would've been far easier and smarter for her to have just asked. I think Lady Toni will end up being a Hilter of sorts by the end of the season. 

 

I would take offence at the comparison if I thought you really understood it, but I'm pretty sure you don't.  

As Goldy pointed out, there's a difference between killing what you believe is truly *physically dangerous to a vast majority of innocent people* (monsters killing/eating people?) and those who you consider dangerous because their ideas/ways of life threaten what *you* want.  

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is that really different than the premise the BMoL are working on? Many of the things they call monsters are not in fact practicing monsters and haven't done anything. They are capturing and torturing them simply because of their race and for no other reason.

You're basing this on a premise that hasn't even been *hinted* at in the show.  Nowhere was it suggested that the BMOL were capturing (much less torturing) any monsters.  In fact, canon shows the opposite:  they seemed proud that they simply killed any monster that showed up on their shores, and it was shown here (and in their flashback, IIRC?) that they kill quickly and cleanly, without torture.  

But even if you want to believe they were putting innocent monsters in some kind of "Monster Gitmo"  (remember Crowley's lockup?), locking up people you perceive as dangerous in "detention camps" is not the same as coldly exterminating them wholesale.  Think more of the Japanese internment camps in WWII than Nazi death camps.  They were gathering what they thought were potential enemies (solely because they belonged to a group that was currently attacking the country).  Morally wrong, definitely.  But not Hitler-level.  

Hitler didn't kill to protect, he convinced others to kill for him because he wanted (as Goldy said, again) a scapegoat that he could use to rally like-minded individuals to do what he wanted--that is, get rid of dissidents.  The people he killed weren't dangerous except in his own mind.  He wanted glory and power, needed a good rallying cry, and didn't want anyone who might challenge him.  There are people/groups/and even entire countries who think like that even today.  It's terrifying to me that the fear- and hate-mongering is still going on.  

But so far the BMOL (even Lady Toni) are nowhere *NEAR* "Hitler-level" of evil.   Hitler managed to convince others that he was on their side and working for the greater good so they willingly did what he said, which (to me) is a much greater evil (consider it like him getting others to willingly sell their souls ).   Lady Toni herself used "distasteful" methods to get information from ONE individual (one we're all sympathetic to!) So maybe she is a sociopath.  Maybe we can say that about any of the hunters who tortured demons (in their meatsuits) for information.  Some enjoyed it, some were very matter-of-fact about it, but we didn't see anyone being squeamish about it.  

Quote

 

I think the show is turning the tables here and making it so Sam and Dean will essentially have to save the supernatural this season. When the show started, anything supernatural was considered a monster and/or evil. Over the years, they've learned that line isn't always easy to see. I think this season they're basically saying, everything we know isn't necessarily wrong, but it doesn't show us the whole picture and might lead us to the wrong conclusion.

 

OTOH, I think you're probably right about this, based on past experience.  I can only hope the about-face (which of the BMOL join them) isn't too jarring, and they don't get too anvilicious with their message.  

[companionenvy]

Can we stop with the Hitler comparison, which I find pretty offensive? 

SPN has certainly complicated the "all monsters/supernatural things" are evil dichotomy over the years, and, for plot purposes, seem likely to do so more this season. But unlike the Jews and other racial groups that have been subjects of genocide, in a lot of cases, there are types of monsters that are pretty much always a danger to humans. We've met a couple of decent vampires, for instance but the nature of a vampire is to feed off of human beings, and they can only manage to prevent doing so through extreme self-restraint and sacrifice. Ghosts always turn into vengeful spirits at some point. Demons, obviously, are bad news. That's why I really, really don't think we should go there with comparisons to real life groups who have suffered persecution.

I actually like the idea of spending some more time with "good" monsters, and having the brothers in a position to be defenders of the supernatural. I don't think that would in any way condemn the Winchesters' general hunting activities because ,as others have said, the monsters they kill are pretty much always ones who have been killing people. If there are larger communities of peaceful supernatural creatures, they simply wouldn't have cause to interact with them.

[goldy]

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Is that really different than the premise the BMoL are working on? Many of the things they call monsters are not in fact practicing monsters and haven't done anything. They are capturing and torturing them simply because of their race and for no other reason.

Yes, but some of them are. In fact, the majority of them are. 

So when you're comparing Hitler's "monsters" to the BMoL monsters, the difference is that Hitler's "monsters" are not really monsters while in the case of the BMoL most of them are.

The BMoL kill monsters because they are part of a race that kill and hurt humans. The fact that they make no distinction and kill ALL monsters just because they're afraid they'll hurt people in the future is very wrong, but at least I can say that their fear is real and rational in regard to the majority of the monsters, at least I can say that they come with good intentions. They should change their ways for sure, but they're not totally wrong.

The Hitler situation is different because the jews, the blacks, the gipsy and other minorities that were killed by the nazi, they never really hurt anyone, they're not really monsters, and not even one of them deserved death. There were no good intention here, just evil. 

 

Quote

f she really thought Sam was so dangerous, she should've just killed him and been done with it. And, if he really possessed important information, she should've just asked. Instead she set up a situation to make sure he wouldn't talk so she could feel justified in her taking it to the next level. I think she used the guise of getting information as a way to justify her desire to do it.

Personally, I'm not sure she necessarily enjoyed torturing, but she was not at all horrified by it either. I think she was fascinated by it all and it was like a sort of experiment to her. Which is messed up and sociopathic, if you ask me.

Maybe you're right. I never really thought about it this way. It is possible that she hate Sam and Dean so much that she set up a situation to make sure Sam wouldn't talk so she could torture him. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[DittyDotDot]

31 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I would take offence at the comparison if I thought you really understood it, but I'm pretty sure you don't.  

Well, considering that I don't think you understand it either, I won't take offense to you not understanding me.

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, considering that I don't think you understand it either, I won't take offense to you not understanding me.

So does that mean you really *do* think the BMOL/Lady Toni are just like Hitler?  Wow.  

Edited November 6, 2016 by ahrtee

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, goldy said:

Yes, but some of them are. In fact, the majority of them are. 

So when you're comparing Hitler's "monsters" to the BMoL monsters, the difference is that Hitler's "monsters" are not really monsters while in the case of the BMoL most of them are.

The BMoL kill monsters because they are part of a race that kill and hurt humans. The fact that they make no distinction and kill ALL monsters just because they're afraid they'll hurt people in the future is very wrong, but at least I can say that their fear is real and rational in regard to the majority of the monsters, at least I can say that they come with good intentions. They should change their ways for sure, but they're not totally wrong.

The Hitler situation is different because the jews, the blacks, the gipsy and other minorities that were killed by the nazi, they never really hurt anyone, they're not really monsters, and not even one of them deserved death. There were no good intention here, just evil. 

I'm sorry, obviously I chose the wrong thing to illustrate my point and it's all getting out of hand here. It's okay, I understand you point of view here, I just think you are looking at it from a very narrow lens. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with the comparison.

20 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So does that mean you really *do* equate the BMOL/Lady Toni with Hitler?  Wow.

No. Like I said, I'm pretty sure you didn't understand me, but I chose not to label you as ignorant of the situation and instead chalked it up to me not communicating my point well. 

Edited November 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[goldy]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm sorry, obviously I chose the wrong thing to illustrate my point and it's all getting out of hand here. It's okay, I understand you point of view here, I just think you are looking at it from a very narrow lens. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with the comparison.

No. Like I said, I'm pretty sure you didn't understand me. 

I'm not offended at all. I know that you were just trying to get your point across. I understand. We'll agree to disagree :)

[ahrtee]

45 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

No. Like I said, I'm pretty sure you didn't understand me, but I chose not to label you as ignorant of the situation and instead chalked it up to me not communicating my point well. 

Well, originally I was giving you the benefit of the doubt:  not saying that you were "ignorant of the situation" but merely that you didn't understand how offensive the comparison was.  However, since you've chosen to edit your post to let me know that you took personal offence where it wasn't intended and are now attacking me personally, let's drop it now.  

[Wynne88]

And . . .  getting away from the whole Hitler comparison . . .

Quote

I think I read somewhere that Garth is coming back this year, and I'm pretty sure that the writers will create a storyline where the BMoL will go after him and Sam and Dean will try and help him.

If that's the case, I'd say we can kiss Garth goodbye.

I'm okay with the Winchesters trying to protect the bits of supernatural that don't do harm.  I think it shows growth from the beginning of the series where the assumption was almost always that the creature (whatever it was) needed to be killed, and the discussion was mostly about the best way to do that.  I expect there will still be plenty of things they kill for good reasons, though, so it's not like they are changing from soldiers to pacifists or something.

[MysteryGuest]

I didn't get the impression that Lady Toni was enjoying the torture so much.  She's not going to show how much she hates it in front of Sam or Dean, but I thought there were scenes with her and the other woman (whose name escapes me) where she seemed to be rather anxious.  

Sam and Dean have definitely come around to the idea that not all monsters are bad through the years.  In the beginning of the series, it was pretty straightforward.  All monsters must die.  But they got away from that pretty quickly, I think.  They haven't always been consistent, but that's another story altogether.

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

I didn't get the impression that Lady Toni was enjoying the torture so much.

 I think she enjoyed it, at least the psychological and mental torture. I thought she took some joy in getting in Sam's face and asking "Was it good for you?" after she mind-raped him.  It was sexualized torture that was quite demon-esque IMO. I thought she was enjoying putting that ice pick or whatever near Dean's  eye. I've never seen that look of terror and dread and defiance. MY head!canon is that Jensen played it like Dean was remembering being tortured in Hell and maybe even remember dying via that method once.  If they wanted to make her more sympathetic and cause maximum pain maybe we find out that she is a demon and Dean turned her when he was in Hell but he can't remember her.

[MysteryGuest]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 I think she enjoyed it, at least the psychological and mental torture. I thought she took some joy in getting in Sam's face and asking "Was it good for you?" after she mind-raped him.  It was sexualized torture that was quite demon-esque IMO. I thought she was enjoying putting that ice pick or whatever near Dean's  eye.

Well, you never allow the enemy to see that you're vulnerable.  She had no choice but to act as though she'd done this numerous times and liked it.  Though I think she did acknowledge that she wasn't usually the one to mete out the torture.  

Anyway, I'm really not arguing right or wrong as to whether this woman deserves redemption.  I just personally think this is how the show is going to go, based on how they introduced her, her son, and her fear of Mr. Ketch.  I could be completely off base, and it wouldn't be the first time, but for right now, my money's on this scenario.  There are certainly other possibilities.

Edited November 6, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, you never allow the enemy to see that you're vulnerable.  She had no choice but to act as though she'd done this numerous times and liked it.  Though I think she did acknowledge that she wasn't usually the one to mete out the torture.  

I understand she couldn't show her vulnerability but her saying "Was it good for you", post-mind-rape doesn't make her more or less vulnerable nor does it  even give her anymore leverage going forward. It doesn't do much of anything. It was punitive more than a torture technique IMO.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, Wynne88 said:

I'm okay with the Winchesters trying to protect the bits of supernatural that don't do harm.  I think it shows growth from the beginning of the series where the assumption was almost always that the creature (whatever it was) needed to be killed, and the discussion was mostly about the best way to do that.  I expect there will still be plenty of things they kill for good reasons, though, so it's not like they are changing from soldiers to pacifists or something.

Exactly!

[goldy]

Some spoilers from the SPNNJ convention:

 

 

 

[Aeryn13]

Oh great, more making the character into a clown and have it be "funny" at his expense.  

[catrox14]

Quote

dean has a yellow fever type episode coming up #spnnj

At first blush that sounds like the one about being afraid of something and it  being treated as a joke.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, the problem is that fans always point to that episode as one of their favorites, so I guess we can't blame TPTB for going back to the trough.  I thought the episode was interesting, and aside from the over-the-top screaming scene with the cat (which was funny once and then annoying on subsequent views), I thought the balance of humor and drama was pretty good.  

My concern is that the show is going to continue giving fans what they want rather than trying to break new ground in storytelling, and that's not going to make me happy.  At 12 years in, with a built-in faithful audience, I was really hoping for some truly scary MOTW episodes.  They really could do almost anything, so I hate for them to just sit back and take the easy route.

[catrox14]

So...I'm trying to figure out how Pellegrino comes back here.  It has to be that his meatsuit is still in the cage

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

So...I'm trying to figure out how Pellegrino comes back here.  It has to be that his meatsuit is still in the cage

I'm fine with him coming back for Lucifer's last gasps as a character, before he's sent back to the cage...permanently! 

[DittyDotDot]

Sorry, issues with trying to merge a post and quote...see below.

Edited November 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

Well, the problem is that fans always point to that episode as one of their favorites, so I guess we can't blame TPTB for going back to the trough.  I thought the episode was interesting, and aside from the over-the-top screaming scene with the cat (which was funny once and then annoying on subsequent views), I thought the balance of humor and drama was pretty good.

I thought Jensen was brilliant in Yellow Fever and he is the only thing that saves that episode for me. Jensen handled Dean's growing anxiety and fear so well. For me that cat scene was the least good part. I did love how it went into Dean hallucinating Lilith and Sam with Yellow eyes.  That was great.  If this episode, assuming it is a dramedic,  leaves out the really broad slapstick comedy it might be okay. 

[DittyDotDot]

Damn it, I can't get it to work right...urgh!

Edited November 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

I can only hope Dean gets to be really badass sometime this Season. A "funny" episode like that might work if there is enough counterweight. However, if a character is nothing BUT a clown anymore who gets beat up by everyone, can`t get over fences and all that, when they make him an exaggerated clown on top of this? It becomes all the character is. 

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

The "Nick" meatsuit was never in the cage. So, it could be that Nick survived being Lucifer's meatsuit and is living somewhere on earth--which I kinda have problems with--or that Lucifer gets returned to the cage and they see "Nick" there again like we did last season? I dunno.

I thought Rowena summoned Nick's meatsuit with Lucifer inside to the cage which is how Lucifer got into Cas.  How would Nick's meatsuit have gotten out of the cage?

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I thought Rowena summoned Nick's meatsuit with Lucifer inside to the cage which is how Lucifer got into Cas.  How would Nick's meatsuit have gotten out of the cage?

No, Lucifer said they were seeing Lucifer as Nick because it was a projection of their own minds and they were in Hell, but if Lucifer went topside he needed a meatsuit and that's why he pummeling Sam and trying to get him to say "Yes."

Nick was never in the cage. Lucifer left Nick to possess Sam in Swan Song. I always assumed Nick died from the experience.

Edited November 6, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

Nick`s meatsuit was lying dead in a warehouse? somewhere as of 5.22. It never went into the cage or anywhere else. By now it should have rotted away. I assume they will ignore that.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm guessing Pellegrino's return is for the fans benefit, and we probably won't get much of an explanation as to how or why.  Considering that Lucifer's been burning out vessels all over town, you'd think that if the Pellegrino meat suit had been available, he'd have just gone back to it right off the bat.  

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Nick`s meatsuit was lying dead in a warehouse? somewhere as of 5.22. It never went into the cage or anywhere else. By now it should have rotted away. I assume they will ignore that.

Unless "Nick" is only seen in Hell again. 

[Demented Daisy]

Or it's a flashback.  Or all in Sam's head again.

[catrox14]

@DittyDotDot @Aeryn13.  Oh that's right! Thanks for reminding me! All those issues are flooding back into my mind now!   I remember now that I couldn't figure out why they didn't have Jared be Samifer since that's REALLY the meatsuit that should be in the Cage.  And that Samifer vs Sam would have been a much better way to play it like they did in Swan Song.

Sigh.

Edited November 6, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

Or it's a flashback.  Or all in Sam's head again.

Flashback I could deal with...Sam having visions/hallucinations again, please no.  

[goldy]

The episode similar to Yellow Fever is one of Jensen favorite scripts

[catrox14]

Jensen did like Yellow Fever. I think he always likes things that give him a chance to have a broad range. and do some comedy. I'd like to know who is the writer for this upcoming episode. 

[MysteryGuest]

He's talked about this particular episode a few times in the last few cons, so hopefully, it'll be a good one.  

[Aeryn13]

Yeah, when it comes to comedy, he and I definitely part ways. I hate slapstick and humiliation porn. And characters made to look wimpy and stupid.

Give me MOC!Dean mowing down the Stynes any time over stuff like this. *shudder* 

[catrox14]

I still just laugh and RME at Singer. 

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/27/supernatural-story-inspiration

Quote

“We really take great pains to not retread things,” executive producer Robert Singer tells EW. “Obviously we give nods to our past mythology, but we really want to be cognizant that we’re not telling the same story over and over again. Because that wouldn’t be fun for the audience and it’s not fun for us.”

I think Singer and I have different definitions of 'not retread;.  Sure, Bob.

[catrox14]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

Yeah, when it comes to comedy, he and I definitely part ways. I hate slapstick and humiliation porn. And characters made to look wimpy and stupid.

Give me MOC!Dean mowing down the Stynes any time over stuff like this. *shudder* 

He does subtle, snarky comedy so well, so I always am taken aback when he finds the big broad slapstick stuff good. But then I hated the Three Stooges soooo there you go yet I LOVE the Marx Brothers who also did slapstick but it was just a different bent to it.  It was always sly broad comedy vs slapstick.