Spoilers With Speculation

[Goldmoon]

Much love for your post Catrox.  Mary's presence defiles the show.  They are going to have to pull off a miracle, otherwise known as terrific writing, for me to accept this premise-change. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

Much love for your post Catrox.  Mary's presence defiles the show.  They are going to have to pull off a miracle, otherwise known as terrific writing, for me to accept this premise-change

I don't think Mary's presence defiles the show. That's too harsh for me.  On one level it feels like it almost makes HER death pointless.  Like even if they make it that somehow Mary died trying to save Sammy, then her sacrifice is nullified.

If the pilot, which is not my favorite episode, hadn't been such a major setup for the series, I would object less.  And I realize that her resurrection doesn't change the boys past but it just changes how I feel about their past. Like I keep thinking, why the fuck do that to John and the boys and then just almost take it back yet not. I wish I could articulate better what I mean.

[Partly]

34 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

There's really no good way to reconcile Mary's hunting background with her behavior in the Pilot,

I have no problem with her behavior in the pilot, even for a trained hunter.  She's asleep until the baby monitor wakes her up, she sees someone whom she assumes is John (no reason to think otherwise) in with Sam.  Yes, there is one flickering light but that steadies when she taps it.  When she goes down and sees John in front of the TV she understands what's happening and runs back up.  It would be unreasonable to think that there was never any naturally occurring flickering lights in the house.  And once she realized that it wasn't John with Sammy, running back immediately would be instinctual and panic driven.  Heading off for weapons or being able to fight the Azazel bare handed would be the type of behavior I would have problem with.  Especially since we've been told that Dean and Mary are alike, Dean is always rush-in-head-first when faced with that type of situation.  Dean's done things like that himself.

29 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's changing the entire basis of the show.

I don't see how this changes the basis of the show.  Everything happened the way it did.  John still lost his wife and dove into the deep end of hunting to avenge her.  Dean still became the caretaker and didn't talk for a year. Sam still grew up without a mother. They all have that history and having her return now changes none of that.  She died.  She was gone for all of their lives.  That doesn't change with her return.

[Partly]

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Like I keep thinking, why the fuck do that to John and the boys and then just almost take it back yet not. I wish I could articulate better what I mean.

True.  But this is Amara we're talking about.  Even if she would have had the power to rewrite all that history -- which would in effect erase her own release from the mark, I doubt she has the ability to understand the difference between bringing Mary back and never having her die. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Partly said:

I don't see how this changes the basis of the show.  Everything happened the way it did.  John still lost his wife and dove into the deep end of hunting to avenge her.  Dean still became the caretaker and didn't talk for a year. Sam still grew up without a mother. They all have that history and having her return now changes none of that.  She died.  She was gone for all of their lives.  That doesn't change with her return

 I didn't say it rewrote the past. I didn't say it changes the past. I didn't say it resets the past or erases anything that happened to the boys. I said it reframes how I view it. I wrote further about why it bothers me in another comment, if you're interested.

It's fine if I'm alone on this. I usually am LOL 

[mertensia]

O o

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 Like I keep thinking, why the fuck do that to John and the boys and then just almost take it back yet not. I wish I could articulate better what I mean.

So it could be better articulated as "this isn't what I personally want them to do so they shouldn't have?"

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, Partly said:

I have no problem with her behavior in the pilot, even for a trained hunter.  She's asleep until the baby monitor wakes her up, she sees someone whom she assumes is John (no reason to think otherwise) in with Sam.  Yes, there is one flickering light but that steadies when she taps it.  When she goes down and sees John in front of the TV she understands what's happening and runs back up.  It would be unreasonable to think that there was never any naturally occurring flickering lights in the house.  And once she realized that it wasn't John with Sammy, running back immediately would be instinctual and panic driven.  Heading off for weapons or being able to fight the Azazel bare handed would be the type of behavior I would have problem with.  Especially since we've been told that Dean and Mary are alike, Dean is always rush-in-head-first when faced with that type of situation.  Dean's done things like that himself.

This was what I was thinking too. Like I said, it depends on how far they push this.

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't say it rewrote the past. I didn't say it changes the past. I didn't say it resets the past or erases anything that happened to the boys. I said it reframes how I view it. I wrote further about why it bothers me in another comment, if you're interested.

It's fine if I'm alone on this. I usually am LOL 

Sometimes these revisionists history storylines can work for me and sometimes they just don't. Bobby being foster dad when the boys were young is one I've never been able to reconcile. I also couldn't get into the Henry Winchester lore because I felt like it changed who I thought John was. Technically, they both line up, but it does change how I viewed things that came before. But the show has also managed to pull a couple off that did work. For instance, revealing that Mary was raised a hunter. I think that one actually layered the story and didn't essentially change who I thought Mary was. So, I'm not sure about this one yet, I need to see it all first. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

Topic #1 - Badass hunter

13 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So Mary is just all magically a badass hunter after being dead for 30 years. Thanks, Amara. 

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 I can eventually swallow other retcons even if I bitch about them till the cows come home but this one is feels too much.  It's changing the entire basis of the show.  This story was about how this damaged man raised his sons and coped without their wife and mother and ended up in a life he never planned for nor understood.  Mary's death shaped Dean's trauma as a child. Remember when we learned Dean didn't talk for a long time after Mary died?  Mary's death shaped why he became a quasi-parent to Sam in addition to older brother. It shaped why John lost it after Mary died and why he went sideways. 

Whilst I agree it opens story opportunities, I'm having a lot of problems with accepting that fundamental shift regardless of what opportunities it provides.  I mean it would almost be like saying that the boys aren't brothers, it's that ingrained for me.  YMMV

 Here's you (IMO) "easy to accept" backstory for Mary being a good hunter:

1) It would appear that Mary was dead all of a few minutes (at best). It hasn't been 30 years.  She's younger than Sam and Dean.  The "30 years" issue is pretty much irrelevant in this conversation from Mary's POV.

2) Mary KNOWS what's really out there. I could easily see her upbringing make her keep in shape.  John's at work 9-5 (at least).  A little cardio, a little strength training, a little basement practice with a knife in the basement.  Just because she was wearing a white (actually, according to Sam Smith it's pale pink) nightgown to bed doesn't mean she wasn't fit.

2) She didn't have to go looking for hunts. She could just have simply taken care of anything that popped up in Lawrence or within a couple of counties.  If Mary is living the happy housewife life and sees evidence of a supernatural creature that she thinks is a threat, she could simply go "take care of it" to make sure she kept a supernatural-free zone for her family.

3) The Campbells did appear to be an isolationist family. Samuel (EP4.02): "I don't trust other hunters, Dean. Don't want their help. Don't want them around my family." So no one knowing of her doesn't surprise me.

4) Mary was 18 when she first wanted out of hunting (EP 4.02).  Sam wanted out of hunting when he was 18. Didn't work. Dean gave up hunting-ish for a year. Didn't work.  Perhaps Mary realized she can't pretend the supernatural doesn't exist and hadn't yet figured out what to do when the boys were ready to leave home (tell them and provide fundamental safety info or figure out some other way to protect them).  Perhaps she was in denial that she would have to deal with the issue.  She's human.  Just because she had an issue (how to keep her family safe from what she knows is out there) doesn't mean she had a solution yet.  While the kids were little she probably felt she had things under control.  Again, sort of like Dean during his year with Lisa.  

Episodes where we actually SAW Mary and evidence of hunting skills:
EP 1.01 Pilot:  1983. While it's true in the pilot Mary didn't immediately presume a single flickering light was a ghost and go into hunter mode, she was pretty fast racing upstairs when she realized there was a stranger.  And why would she think a ghost had suddenly moved into her home anyway?  It doesn't generally work that way.
EP 1.09 Home: Well, she took out that evil spirit as a ghost.  I'd say that was mad hunting skillz for one ghost to take out another. I presumed motherly love helped. (IMO no time stamp for a ghost).
EP 2.22 All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1: 1983. She knew YED but didn't have time to react to his threat.  Now, there IS the issue that she wasn't prepared for him.  Then again, last time he didn't immediately kill.  Maybe she thought she could keep him out with holy water and salt.  Demons were not common.  And YED was a much bigger bad than most demons. She didn't understand the big picture (because Micheal wiped her memories).
EP 4.02 In the Beginning: 1973. She was pretty sharp as a young hunter. And apparently still in high school potentially "waving pom-poms at a bunch of dumb jocks".
EP 5.13 The Song Remains the Same: 1978. Again, she was pretty handy with that crowbar and hand-to-hand with Anna.  And that was 5 years after supposedly giving up hunting.

Bottom Line #1 for the TL; DR: So IMO, Mary having hunting skills 5 years (1978) and even 10 years (1983) after her encounter with YED is not a huge stretch.  She was raised by an extremely protective father.  I think she kept herself in fighting shape and took care of local-ish problems to keep a safe zone around her family.

Topic #2 - Changing the premise

To me this MUCH more a personal opinion than objective fact.  Subsequently, nothing I can say is likely to change anyone's mind whose made up.  

 

There are some things that just bug. "defile?" I don't get that harshness. For those on the fence:

1) Amara has God-class powers.  Time is just another dimension so she could have just pulled her from where-ever-the-hellistan-the-Angels-hid-her or from the moment immediately after her death.  Maybe she wiped her memories of the specific feelings during her death trauma but she still knows what happened.  Or maybe Mary remembers burning and her resurrection (like Dean's from Hell) is independent of the state of her body when she died.

2) "Home" does not have to get erased from existing.  We had an entire issue devoted to temporal anomaly (EP 11.16). It seems like the veil is not always linear in time.  There were TWO ghosts in that house in Lawrence.  As Missouri said, the kind of damaged YED inflicted caused some supernatural scar. Again, I think Amara could have pulled Mary and yet not disturbed the original timeline.

3) The past is still the past from our character's perspective.  John, Sam and Dean's life played out exactly as we've seen over the past 11 years.  Amara has simply resurrected their mother to try and bring back an important emotional connection for Dean.  

4) And JUST to screw with our heads -- you knows we've never really dealt with the temporal anomaly of Dean's presence in 1973.  He caused John to get the Impala.  He tipped Samuel and Mary off to Libby's danger (and thus put Mary in YED's crosshairs).  So, it we've lived with that temporal anomaly without feeling the entire show is shit for having it, I don't think this is such a game changed.

Bottom Line for TL; DR: The past is still the past from our character's perspective. Temporal anomalies exist in Superantural.  Another one doesn't ruin the show premise. YMMV.

10 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Much love for your post Catrox.  Mary's presence defiles the show.  They are going to have to pull off a miracle, otherwise known as terrific writing, for me to accept this premise-change. 

No one has to re-write history for this all to make sense.  Here's you (IMO) "easy to accept" backstory for Mary being a good hunter:

1) Mary KNOWS what's really out there. I could easily see her upbringing make her keep in shape.  John's at work 9-5 (at least).  A little cardio, a little strength training, a little basement practice with a knife in the basement.  Just because she was wearing a white (actually, according to Sam Smith it's pale pink) nightgown to bed doesn't mean she wasn't fit.

2) She didn't have to go looking for hunts. She could just have simply taken care of anything that popped up in Lawrence or within a couple of counties.  If Mary is living the happy housewife life and sees evidence of a supernatural creature that she thinks is a threat, she could simply go "take care of it" to make sure she kept a supernatural-free zone for her family.

3) The Campbells did appear to be an isolated family.  Maybe they thought the rest of the hunters were not to be trusted (that seemed to be Samuel's way).  So no one knowing of her doesn't surprise me.

4) It would appear that Mary was dead all of a few minutes (at best). It hasn't been 30 years.  She's younger than Sam and Dean.  The "30 years" issue is pretty much irrelevant in this conversation from Mary's POV.

Episodes where we actually SAW Mary and evidence of hunting skills:
EP 1.01 Pilot:  While it's true in the pilot Mary didn't immediately presume a single flickering light was a ghost and go into hunter mode, she was pretty fast racing upstairs when she realized there was a stranger.  And why would she think a ghost had suddenly moved into her home anyway?  It doesn't generally work that way.
EP 1.09 Home: Well, she took out that evil spirit as a ghost.  I'd say that was mad hunting skillz for one ghost to take out another. I presumed motherly love helped.
EP 2.22 All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1: She knew YED but didn't have time to react to his threat.  Now, there IS the issue that she wasn't prepared for him.  Then again, last time he didn't immediately kill.  Maybe she thought she could keep him out with holy water and salt.  Demons were not common.  And YED was a much bigger bad than most demons. She didn't understand the big picture (because Micheal wiped her memories).
EP 4.02 In the Beginning: She was pretty sharp as a young hunter.
 

Again, she was pretty handy with that crowbar and hand-to-hand with Anna.  

10 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Much love for your post Catrox.  Mary's presence defiles the show.  They are going to have to pull off a miracle, otherwise known as terrific writing, for me to accept this premise-change. 

[SueB]

Topic #1 - Badass hunter

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So Mary is just all magically a badass hunter after being dead for 30 years. Thanks, Amara. 

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 I can eventually swallow other retcons even if I bitch about them till the cows come home but this one is feels too much.  It's changing the entire basis of the show.  This story was about how this damaged man raised his sons and coped without their wife and mother and ended up in a life he never planned for nor understood.  Mary's death shaped Dean's trauma as a child. Remember when we learned Dean didn't talk for a long time after Mary died?  Mary's death shaped why he became a quasi-parent to Sam in addition to older brother. It shaped why John lost it after Mary died and why he went sideways. 

Whilst I agree it opens story opportunities, I'm having a lot of problems with accepting that fundamental shift regardless of what opportunities it provides.  I mean it would almost be like saying that the boys aren't brothers, it's that ingrained for me.  YMMV

 Here's you (IMO) "easy to accept" backstory for Mary being a good hunter:

1) It would appear that Mary was dead all of a few minutes (at best). It hasn't been 30 years.  She's younger than Sam and Dean.  The "30 years" issue is pretty much irrelevant in this conversation from Mary's POV.

2) Mary KNOWS what's really out there. I could easily see her upbringing make her keep in shape.  John's at work 9-5 (at least).  A little cardio, a little strength training, a little basement practice with a knife in the basement.  Just because she was wearing a white (actually, according to Sam Smith it's pale pink) nightgown to bed doesn't mean she wasn't fit.

3) She didn't have to go looking for hunts. She could just have simply taken care of anything that popped up in Lawrence or within a couple of counties.  If Mary is living the happy housewife life and sees evidence of a supernatural creature that she thinks is a threat, she could simply go "take care of it" to make sure she kept a supernatural-free zone for her family.

4) The Campbells did appear to be an isolationist family. Samuel (EP4.02): "I don't trust other hunters, Dean. Don't want their help. Don't want them around my family." So no one knowing of her doesn't surprise me.

5) Mary was 18 when she first wanted out of hunting (EP 4.02).  Sam wanted out of hunting when he was 18. Didn't work. Dean gave up hunting-ish for a year. Didn't work.  Perhaps Mary realized she can't pretend the supernatural doesn't exist and hadn't yet figured out what to do when the boys were ready to leave home (tell them and provide fundamental safety info or figure out some other way to protect them).  Perhaps she was in denial that she would have to deal with the issue.  She's human.  Just because she had an issue (how to keep her family safe from what she knows is out there) doesn't mean she had a solution yet.  While the kids were little she probably felt she had things under control.  Again, sort of like Dean during his year with Lisa.  

Episodes where we actually SAW Mary and evidence of hunting skills:
EP 1.01 Pilot:  1983. While it's true in the pilot Mary didn't immediately presume a single flickering light was a ghost and go into hunter mode, she was pretty fast racing upstairs when she realized there was a stranger.  And why would she think a ghost had suddenly moved into her home anyway?  It doesn't generally work that way.
EP 1.09 Home: Well, she took out that evil spirit as a ghost.  I'd say that was mad hunting skillz for one ghost to take out another. I presumed motherly love helped. (IMO no time stamp for a ghost).
EP 2.22 All Hell Breaks Loose Pt 1: 1983. She knew YED but didn't have time to react to his threat.  Now, there IS the issue that she wasn't prepared for him.  Then again, last time he didn't immediately kill.  Maybe she thought she could keep him out with holy water and salt.  Demons were not common.  And YED was a much bigger bad than most demons. She didn't understand the big picture (because Micheal wiped her memories).
EP 4.02 In the Beginning: 1973. She was pretty sharp as a young hunter. And apparently still in high school potentially "waving pom-poms at a bunch of dumb jocks".
EP 5.13 The Song Remains the Same: 1978. Again, she was pretty handy with that crowbar and hand-to-hand with Anna.  And that was 5 years after supposedly giving up hunting.

Bottom Line #1 for the TL; DR: So IMO, Mary having hunting skills 5 years (1978) and even 10 years (1983) after her encounter with YED is not a huge stretch.  She was raised by an extremely protective father.  I think she kept herself in fighting shape and took care of local-ish problems to keep a safe zone around her family.

 

 

Topic #2 - Changing the premise

To me this MUCH more a personal opinion than objective fact.  Subsequently, nothing I can say is likely to change anyone's mind whose made up.  

10 hours ago, Goldmoon said:

Much love for your post Catrox.  Mary's presence defiles the show.  They are going to have to pull off a miracle, otherwise known as terrific writing, for me to accept this premise-change. 

 

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 I didn't say it rewrote the past. I didn't say it changes the past. I didn't say it resets the past or erases anything that happened to the boys. I said it reframes how I view it. I wrote further about why it bothers me in another comment, if you're interested.

It's fine if I'm alone on this. I usually am LOL 

 

There are some things that just bug. "defile?" I don't get that harshness. For those on the fence:

1) Amara has God-class powers.  Time is just another dimension so she could have just pulled her from where-ever-the-hellistan-the-Angels-hid-her or from the moment immediately after her death.  Maybe she wiped her memories of the specific feelings during her death trauma but she still knows what happened.  Or maybe Mary remembers burning and her resurrection (like Dean's from Hell) is independent of the state of her body when she died.

2) "Home" does not have to get erased from existing.  We had an entire issue devoted to temporal anomaly (EP 11.16). It seems like the veil is not always linear in time.  There were TWO ghosts in that house in Lawrence.  As Missouri said, the kind of damaged YED inflicted caused some supernatural scar. Again, I think Amara could have pulled Mary and yet not disturbed the original timeline.

3) The past is still the past from our character's perspective.  John, Sam and Dean's life played out exactly as we've seen over the past 11 years.  Amara has simply resurrected their mother to try and bring back an important emotional connection for Dean.  

4) And JUST to screw with our heads -- you knows we've never really dealt with the temporal anomaly of Dean's presence in 1973.  He caused John to get the Impala.  He tipped Samuel and Mary off to Libby's danger (and thus put Mary in YED's crosshairs).  So, it we've lived with that temporal anomaly without feeling the entire show is shit for having it, I don't think this is such a game changed.

Bottom Line for TL; DR: The past is still the past from our character's perspective. Temporal anomalies exist in Superantural.  Another one doesn't ruin the show premise. YMMV.

Edited September 20, 2016 by SueB

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, mertensia said:

So it could be better articulated as "this isn't what I personally want them to do so they shouldn't have?

Respectfully, your reading of my opinion is much too reductive and simplistic.  This is art we are all watching.  We all have personal preferences filters and lenses through which we watch, evaluate, interpret a story. How we view characters. What we like and dislike.  So I don't really get your point here.  

[Aeryn13]

*groan*  at that sneak peak  

So it`s not only that skirmish with super MOL!chick on the street, nope, Dean gets captured alright and Instant!Super!Mary has to save him as well. Why the hell did he reference Taken at Comic Con? It looks like Mary`s uber-competence will be portrayed by showing others and Dean especially as highly incompetent. Sounds like great fun. Not. Even Sam apparently gets to look like more of a badass under torture. Dean is just chained somewhere on the side. If this is like Red Meat where, after seeing the Sneak Peak, I could already tell how shitty it would go, then this first two episodes will blow gigantic chunks.. 

[Diane]

15 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

*groan*  at that sneak peak  

So it`s not only that skirmish with super MOL!chick on the street, nope, Dean gets captured alright and Instant!Super!Mary has to save him as well. Why the hell did he reference Taken at Comic Con? It looks like Mary`s uber-competence will be portrayed by showing others and Dean especially as highly incompetent. Sounds like great fun. Not. Even Sam apparently gets to look like more of a badass under torture. Dean is just chained somewhere on the side. If this is like Red Meat where, after seeing the Sneak Peak, I could already tell how shitty it would go, then this first two episodes will blow gigantic chunks.. 

Maybe, he gets himself captured on purpose?  I really have no clue, just putting a guess out there. Would be interesting and a little different though.

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Diane said:

Maybe, he gets himself captured on purpose?  I really have no clue, just putting a guess out there. Would be interesting and a little different though.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense to me. Dean purposely gets himself captured so Mary and Cass can follow him to Sam? I so want this to happen now! ;)

[Diane]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Actually, that makes a lot of sense to me. Dean purposely gets himself captured so Mary and Cass can follow him to Sam? I so want this to happen now! ;)

Me too!

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

*groan*  at that sneak peak  

So it`s not only that skirmish with super MOL!chick on the street, nope, Dean gets captured alright and Instant!Super!Mary has to save him as well. Why the hell did he reference Taken at Comic Con? It looks like Mary`s uber-competence will be portrayed by showing others and Dean especially as highly incompetent. Sounds like great fun. Not. Even Sam apparently gets to look like more of a badass under torture. Dean is just chained somewhere on the side. If this is like Red Meat where, after seeing the Sneak Peak, I could already tell how shitty it would go, then this first two episodes will blow gigantic chunks.. 

I keep hoping that the sneak peek is not showing us all that Dean will be doing. I'm probably hoping for too much.

 

2 hours ago, SueB said:

) And JUST to screw with our heads -- you knows we've never really dealt with the temporal anomaly of Dean's presence in 1973.  He caused John to get the Impala.  He tipped Samuel and Mary off to Libby's danger (and thus put Mary in YED's crosshairs).  So, it we've lived with that temporal anomaly without feeling the entire show is shit for having it, I don't think this is such a game changed.

 They are implying they are playing it straight with Mary's resurrection not messing with the timelines.  As I have said here repeatedly, IMO, Mary's resurrection really should have unintended consequences.  Amara has God powers but she was also naive to a degree or at least unaware of how humanity and human time works.  So yes they definitely could mess with timelines and life histories. 

Cas said that he only sent Dean to the show him that the past could not be changed so that he understood Sam's present and why Dean had to stop Sam or the angels would. IMO , there is no evidence that John would not have bought the Impala if not for Dean.  John bought the Impala in the past  before Dean was born or sent back he was always going to buy the Impala given Cas saying the past cannot be changed. Same with Mary's deal.  Dean told Azazel he would kill him but that didn't change Mary's decision because Mary didn't know that Dean was her son at that point. That said, it does give them a loophole for Dean to be blamed for everything.

I am definitely  interested in how Dean reacts to Mary. I feel like Dean would be conflicted and possibly think he's disappointed her even though he didn't choose to be indoctrinated into that life as a child; but now he's saddled with another layer of guilt he didn't have before because now Mary knows for a fact that he's doing what she never wanted him to do.

RE: the night Mary died. :Dabb and Berens are saying Mary has great hunter instincts. If Mary was still in training or doing random hunts in the ten years since she made the deal, I don't understand why she wouldn't have been aware that the 10 years was nigh and been on alert.  Even if she just forgot or blew it off shouldn't her great hunter instincts have kicked right in that night regardless of how tired she was?

[Partly]

I find the whole introduction of Mary-as-Hunter (especially if she's hunting while married) into the mix most interesting due to its effect on the character of John -- or rather, how John is viewed.  For example, in Dark side of the Moon we discover that John moved out of the house for a couple of days and Dean says that their parents marriage "wasn't perfect until after she died".  Since we knew John to be a flawed character, especially where family is concerned, it was assumed that John did something stupid and caused the rift.  Sam even tells Dean "I just never realized how long you’ve been cleaning up Dad’s messes."

But Mary had a lot of MAJOR secrets she was holding.  She was the first of their family to start with the "make a deal with the devil to save someone you love" trend.  She couldn't tell the truth about what happened with her parents or how she brought John back.  And if she was hunting while married, there was another MASSIVE secret -- lying to John about what she did, hiding her behaviors -- that would have caused problems.  Sure she was keeping her family safe, she was "saving people, killing things", she had valid reasons for her choices, but it really changes the perceived dynamic between Mary and John.

Personally, I LOVE this opportunity.  It's so much like real life, when you find out things you never knew about your parents that totally reshapes your childhood-based view of them.  John is such a complicated character, such a mix of heroic and despicable traits that it's difficult to paint him in just one light.  Mary has always been a memory, a construct, a trope that was used by good and evil forces alike, this is an opportunity to make her as nuanced as John is and that can only be good for the continuing characterization of the boys.

As always with this show, there is no obvious right or wrong actions available to the characters, there is only choices and consequences.

I adore that.

Edited September 20, 2016 by Partly
grammar errors

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Maybe, he gets himself captured on purpose?

I can`t see it really. The show is usually super-straightforward. And they have no qualms about giving away things in promos or sneak peaks. They totally showed Sam getting the trials in a promo back in Season 8.

There is no real strategic value in letting himself be captured and all the clips so far have shown him to be rather easily overpowered by his opponent(s) and now he sits in chains and just stares in awe at Mary. Dabb or Singer speechified how we`ll see what a fantastically-awesome hunter Mary is right away.

The easy answer is: to show that they also went for the easy route by having everyone else be terrible at their jobs so Mary looks like the greatest badass in comparism. The show nearly always goes for the easiest answer possible. If this was a ploy, the clips would give off another vibe because they would telegraph that, too. 

I only hope this "Dean can`t fight or hunt for shit anymore" bullshit only lasts these one or two episodes and they get their Super!Mary to the rescue rocks off early on. An entire Season of that is depressing.

[catrox14]

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/20/supernatural-kadeem-hardison-guest-star-season-12

aka Dwayne Wayne from A Different World

Quote

But the hunt for Lucifer won’t be easy, and along the way, Crowley’s going to run into at least one familiar face. EW can exclusively reveal that Kadeem Hardison has been cast to guest star in a season 12 episode as Russell Lemmons — get it? — a music industry mogul who has a history with Crowley and big plans for Vince Vincente, which by the way, is the name of Lucifer’s new vessel, played by Springfield.

Edited September 20, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Okay, I reallllllly don't know what to make of Kim Rhodes tweet here.  Like That'll do, pig.  That'll do was Farmer acknowledging that Babe did a good job.  But WHY is Kim saying this?  I'm scared now :(

 

[goldy]

Supernatural: Misha Collins says Castiel's 'a little bit of a jerk' in season 12

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/20/supernatural-misha-collins-castiel-season-12?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

Edited September 20, 2016 by goldy

[catrox14]

Just now, goldy said:

Supernatural: Misha Collins says Castiel's 'a little bit of a jerk' in season 12

http://www.ew.com/article/2016/09/20/supernatural-misha-collins-castiel-season-12?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

 

I Oh, no. I hope that doesn't mean they killed her character off. I'll be so pissed if they'll go there!! 

As bad as the backlash was about Charlie who wasn't even particularly liked by all viewers, Jody Mills seems to be universally loved by most viewers. I cannot fathom the show killing her off. I don't think it would survive the backlash. 

The only optimistic reading I have for this tweet is that Jody carries an  episode as a backdoor pilot for a Wayward Daughters/Academy spinoff. 

[MysteryGuest]

I can't really explain why, but I really have no interest in the rockstar episode.  It's just not doing it for me.  Probably the combination of Lucifer, who bores me to tears, and Rick Springfield, who also bores me to tears.  Oh well.

As for Mary, she may or may not have continued to hunt during her marriage to John, but if she did, I'm going to assume she didn't tell him.  I don't think he ever had any idea of her past as a hunter.  I also don't think she actually needed to keep her skills honed for the show to now show her as some super hunter.  Hunting is like riding a bike...you never forget!  I think the show is going to portray her as this great hunter who immediately comes to the aid of her sons when they get overpowered by the MOL.  We know that Sam and Dean are supposed to be exceptionally good hunters, but that never stops the writers from making them look like complete buffoons on occasion, if it suits their plot.  I don't like it, but they do it all the time.

I don't think we need to alter Mary's story at all, honestly.  She was a hunter who gave up the life to get married and raise a family.  Yellow Eyes came to collect on his deal, and we don't really know whether Mary realized what was happening in that moment, or not.  That whole sequence happened pretty quickly.  We may find out that she did, or they might not mention it at all, but that particular piece of information still doesn't change what happened.  I think it's more interesting of a story to just leave it at that.  The irony of John becoming a hunter to avenge her death, having never known that she was also a hunter, is the better story, IMO.

[goldy]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

As bad as the backlash was about Charlie who wasn't even particularly liked by all viewers, Jody Mills seems to be universally loved by most viewers. I cannot fathom the show killing her off. I don't think it would survive the backlash. 

The only optimistic reading I have for this tweet is that Jody carries an  episode as a backdoor pilot for a Wayward Daughters/Academy spinoff. 

Charlie was hated? Man, this fandom is so weird to me sometimes. lol. 

Edited September 20, 2016 by goldy

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, goldy said:

Charlie was hated? Man, this fandom is so weird to me sometimes? lol. 

? I said she wasn't universally liked or loved.  Some viewers thought she became more of a Mary Sue as time went on. And unfortunately they did dumb down the boys to elevate her at times. I think even those that didn't like Charlie and didn't care if she was on the show thought the manner of her death was awful

[MysteryGuest]

I certainly hope they wouldn't kill her off.  I haven't seen Babe since it came out, so I can't even remember how it ended.  The pig doesn't die, does he?

[Demented Daisy]

4 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Yellow Eyes came to collect on his deal, and we don't really know whether Mary realized what was happening in that moment, or not.  That whole sequence happened pretty quickly.

Which, you know, makes sense in hindsight.  Why did Azazel kill Mary so quickly?  Because he knew she was a hunter and could put up a pretty good fight to save her son, if he gave her the chance.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I certainly hope they wouldn't kill her off.  I haven't seen Babe since it came out, so I can't even remember how it ended.  The pig doesn't die, does he?

No, he doesn't die. 

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I certainly hope they wouldn't kill her off.  I haven't seen Babe since it came out, so I can't even remember how it ended.  The pig doesn't die, does he?

The pig saved the day (and their honor) for the family, and (supposedly) lived happily ever after, without ever having to worry again about possibly being turned into bacon.  I wonder why SPN fans always assume the worst? (No, don't answer that...I know it's because the show usually does the worst, even when it doesn't make sense.)  I can only hope Kim knows the movie's end and is being accurate.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

The pig saved the day (and their honor) for the family, and (supposedly) lived happily ever after, without ever having to worry again about possibly being turned into bacon.  I wonder why SPN fans always assume the worst? (No, don't answer that...I know it's because the show usually does the worst, even when it doesn't make sense.)  I can only hope Kim knows the movie's end and is being accurate.

Do you really wonder why we worry? REALLY?

[goldy]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

? I said she wasn't universally liked or loved.  Some viewers thought she became more of a Mary Sue as time went on. And unfortunately they did dumb down the boys to elevate her at times. I think even those that didn't like Charlie and didn't care if she was on the show thought the manner of her death was awful

Oh, I'm sorry. I don't know why but the first time I read your post I thought you wrote she was hated. I guess in my mind not liking Charlie equal to hating on her. lol. Sorry again.

That's cool that people didn't like her. To each his own. Personally, I thought she was a really cool and fun character.

[mertensia]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Respectfully, your reading of my opinion is much too reductive and simplistic.  This is art we are all watching.  We all have personal preferences filters and lenses through which we watch, evaluate, interpret a story. How we view characters. What we like and dislike.  So I don't really get your point here.  

That you are verging into "it's not how I see the characters therefore no one else should see it that way!!" territory in my simple and reductive opinion.

[DittyDotDot]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay, I reallllllly don't know what to make of Kim Rhodes tweet here.  Like That'll do, pig.  That'll do was Farmer acknowledging that Babe did a good job.  But WHY is Kim saying this?  I'm scared now :(

 

You could look at is as, just like Babe, Jodi lives to return another day.

43 minutes ago, goldy said:

Charlie was hated? Man, this fandom is so weird to me sometimes. lol. 

By some, not all. For me she was hit and miss, but I don't think she was actually as beloved as the show thinks. 

Edited September 21, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[DittyDotDot]

38 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Which, you know, makes sense in hindsight.  Why did Azazel kill Mary so quickly?  Because he knew she was a hunter and could put up a pretty good fight to save her son, if he gave her the chance.

I think it's like Yellow Eyes said, no one gets hurt if they don't get in the way. Mary was getting in the way.

[catrox14]

24 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

You could look at is as, just like Babe, Jodi lives to return another day.

I did say the following  on another comment. So yes it doesn't mean she'll be killed off but this series you never know.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

The only optimistic reading I have for this tweet is that Jody carries an  episode as a backdoor pilot for a Wayward Daughters/Academy spinoff. 

[MysteryGuest]

Kim has responded.  I suck at linking, but here's what she said...

OHMYGAWD! No. Because I felt like I worked hard and made everybody proud. NOT BECAUSE I WAS BECOMING BACON. (Sorry for delay. Was on plane.)

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Kim has responded.  I suck at linking, but here's what she said...

OHMYGAWD! No. Because I felt like I worked hard and made everybody proud. NOT BECAUSE I WAS BECOMING BACON. (Sorry for delay. Was on plane.)

LOL well that's good to know! Thanks!

[SueB]

I love Kim.  Becoming bacon. Hee. 

 

So look who liked my tweet:

I'm a legit Dwayne Wayne fan.  #NoJudging. 

Edited September 21, 2016 by SueB

[goldy]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

By some, not all. For me she was hit and miss, but I don't think she was actually as beloved as the show thinks. 

That's surprising for me to hear as I really enjoyed the character. But, like I said; to each his own. I'm new to the fandom so I am surprised with a lot of fandom reaction. 

[MysteryGuest]

I never thought Felicia Day was the best actress in the world, but I thought she brought out a side of Dean that was pretty special.  I really enjoyed their relationship and I hate that they felt they needed to kill that.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

I love Kim.  Becoming bacon. Hee. 

 

So look who liked my tweet:

I'm a legit Dwayne Wayne fan.  #NoJudging. 

I loved A Different World and Dwayne Wayne too

[catrox14]

He directed the Chitters last season, which I rather liked.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I can't really explain why, but I really have no interest in the rockstar episode.  It's just not doing it for me.  Probably the combination of Lucifer, who bores me to tears, and Rick Springfield, who also bores me to tears.  Oh well.

I have zero interest in it either. I liked Pellegrino and Misha's Lucifer. I'm not interested in seeing him vessel hop myself. And same about Rick Springfield.

[Diane]

22 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I have zero interest in it either. I liked Pellegrino and Misha's Lucifer. I'm not interested in seeing him vessel hop myself. And same about Rick Springfield.

Ok I am an 80's child watched General Hospital for Rick Springfield and John Stamos, saw Rick Springfield in concert twice, yes I am that girl. I am excited but maybe for nostalgic reasons, hope it's good so that it doesn't disappoint everyone else. 

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I never thought Felicia Day was the best actress in the world, but I thought she brought out a side of Dean that was pretty special.  I really enjoyed their relationship and I hate that they felt they needed to kill that.

I liked Charlie in very small doses she got on my nerves depending on which episode it is. I was not upset when she was killed, but understand why some were.

[auntvi]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I have zero interest in it either. I liked Pellegrino and Misha's Lucifer. I'm not interested in seeing him vessel hop myself. And same about Rick Springfield.

I hate the idea of making Lucifer less black & white. IMHO he's supposed to be dark, dark, dark. I liked Pellegrino, who played it as truly evil and threatening with an edge of nasty humor. Maybe they just couldn't get Pellegrino for as many episodes as they needed. Last season it looked like they gave Misha the character just to give him something to do & I don't think he did a very good job, too much a parody of Mark's version without the  real menace.

The idea of rockstar-Lucifer reminds me of the vampire Lestat, but it seems to me you have more freedom to make vampires gray, because they were once human. Anyway, I don't see the need for more Lucifer & I hope this plot line isn't just a way to keep Castiel and Crowley busy.

Bitch, moan, complain.......

[rue721]

OK, I have A LOT to catch up on, including the iTunes sneak peak, so my apologies if I'm kind of off topic or my info is outdated...but I just want to say that I am SO EXCITED that they're bringing Mary back and she's hunting with the boys! I think that's just such a fun idea and really shakes things up.

ETA:  as people who have been on this board for a long time probably know, because it has been on my wish list for a long time! I never thought it would happen, though, so...all I can say is VERY COOL! :)

On 9/19/2016 at 9:49 PM, catrox14 said:

And another thing.  Why wouldn't John have learned that Mary was a hunter who was still hunting when they were married when he was learning to hunt? Surely Mary Campbell or Mary Winchester - uber female hunter would have a known reputation in the hunter community? And not one hunter mentioned this to John or Dean Fucking Winchester, the two stated best hunters in the world at the beginning of the series?

Continuity schmontinuity

I don't think that it messes with continuity, given what we know about John (and his lack of communication skills).

Obviously John was prone to keeping secrets and was pretty bad at talking about things openly with his family. But I don't just mean that, I mean that he also seemed like he was hard for other people to get along with, too. Even if some other hunters knew something about Mary Winchester nee Campbell, I can see John not being all that receptive to talking about her with them, and I can see them not being comfortable bringing her up with him, beyond maybe offering some condolences.

On 9/19/2016 at 10:36 PM, DittyDotDot said:

However, it could be that John did learn that Mary was a hunter but just never divulged that fact to Sam and Dean? He didn't share a whole helluva lot of other relevant information he apparently knew; it does seem as thought that would be in-character for John. Perhaps John even learned about the deal, eventually and just didn't tell Sam and Dean because he wanted them to remember her as innocent and not blame her for what came of their family in the end?

Yeah, I agree. I think the show could go in a lot of different directions with this and have them all make sense/not feel like retcons. YMMV.

On 9/20/2016 at 0:24 AM, catrox14 said:

I don't think Mary's presence defiles the show. That's too harsh for me.  On one level it feels like it almost makes HER death pointless.  Like even if they make it that somehow Mary died trying to save Sammy, then her sacrifice is nullified.

If the pilot, which is not my favorite episode, hadn't been such a major setup for the series, I would object less.  And I realize that her resurrection doesn't change the boys past but it just changes how I feel about their past. Like I keep thinking, why the fuck do that to John and the boys and then just almost take it back yet not. I wish I could articulate better what I mean.

OK, I maybe need to watch the sneak peak before being able to talk about this cogently. But offhand, I think that sacrificing your relationship with your sons and husband, and missing out on their whole lives, is a huge deal whether you get a second chance with them (or with your sons at least) or not. Especially because the Winchester family basically collapsed when Mary wasn't there anymore. I mean, to think of your husband and sons going through everything that John, Sam, and Dean went through?! That seems beyond heartbreaking.

On 9/20/2016 at 10:06 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Sometimes these revisionists history storylines can work for me and sometimes they just don't. Bobby being foster dad when the boys were young is one I've never been able to reconcile. I also couldn't get into the Henry Winchester lore because I felt like it changed who I thought John was. Technically, they both line up, but it does change how I viewed things that came before. But the show has also managed to pull a couple off that did work. For instance, revealing that Mary was raised a hunter. I think that one actually layered the story and didn't essentially change who I thought Mary was. So, I'm not sure about this one yet, I need to see it all first. 

Actually, I liked the Henry Winchester thing exactly because it was so unexpected. I mean, I wouldn't have assumed that John's father was this refined, intellectual, *likeable* (!) family man, but in retrospect, I actually think it made a lot of sense. Especially since Henry vanished when John was a young kid and John had a lot of anger toward him. I actually like those sort of tweaks, because they aren't that straightforward but they aren't exactly retcons, either. They're just relatively realistic levels of complexity.

Conversely, I think that the biggest problem with the Bobby-as-pseudo-father retcon is that it felt too simplistic. Bobby as a sort of lonely guy that connected with the Winchesters when they'd lost their father and were lonely too actually really worked imo. It was only when they tried to simplify things down to "Bobby is basically their dad" that things went awry.

So something like Mary being a more complex person or having a history that isn't that straightforward actually works really well for me.

23 hours ago, Partly said:

Mary has always been a memory, a construct, a trope that was used by good and evil forces alike, this is an opportunity to make her as nuanced as John is and that can only be good for the continuing characterization of the boys.

Love your take on this. It's interesting in retrospect how bitter Dean sounded when he said that John and Mary's marriage wasn't "perfect" until after she died, because now it seems like the same thing can be said of Mary herself (and Dean was one of the people who helped construct that myth of her "perfection").

Edited September 21, 2016 by rue721
super excited and wanted to reiterate? eh. I had no good reason to edit and that's the truth

[goldy]

Looks like they're having a night shoot:

 

[rue721]

Nada

Edited September 21, 2016 by rue721
no post -- just pressed a button by mistake!

[catrox14]

I hope that is Jensen's own jacket vs Dean's wardrobe. And if it is Dean's wardrobe why is he wearing what looks to be a motorcycle jacket? He's never worn that kind of jacket before AFAIK.  He's also only got one layer and that jacket? What is going on there? Is he infiltrating a motorcycle gang for some reason? Hmmmmmm

[goldy]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I hope that is Jensen's own jacket vs Dean's wardrobe. And if it is Dean's wardrobe why is he wearing what looks to be a motorcycle jacket? He's never worn that kind of jacket before AFAIK.  He's also only got one layer and that jacket? What is going on there? Is he infiltrating a motorcycle gang for some reason? Hmmmmmm

Misha is with his Castiel wardrobe, so I'm guessing Jensen and Jared are with their wardrobe too. Maybe that's the "LA nightclub" episode they were talking about in the latest sneak peek.

We don't have any spoilers to Episode 7 so it could be anything really.

Edited September 21, 2016 by goldy

[catrox14]

Just now, goldy said:

Misha is with his Castiel wardrobe, so I'm guessing Jensen and Jared are with their wardrobe too. Maybe that's the "LA nightclub" episode they were talking about in the latest sneak peek.

We don't have any spoilers too Episode 7 so it could be anything really.

Oh that's a good bet. Maybe they are going to a nightclub thinking they have to dress that way?