Spoilers With Speculation

[Demented Daisy]

Standard disclaimers: IMO, mileage varies, etc etc etc.

I was just thinking -- the show needs to get back to being a quasi-mystery.  Knowing the Big Bad upfront has taken most of the suspense out of the show; we know nothing will be resolved until the finale, so they have to work twice as hard (IMO) to keep us entertained with the MotW.

At the same time, I definitely want Sam and Dean to get back to saving individuals, instead of trying to save the whole damn world.  It's getting repetitive and dull.  To that end, I propose the following:

Sam and Dean should be back together by the 4th episode.  Until then, Dean will be with Mary and Sam will be with the Men of Letters.  Neither story has much interest for me, so how TPTB resolves those stories matters little.

Let's get this Men of Letters, UK Chapter, business out of the way ASAP.  The best way to do that is to get them on the Winchesters' side.  It's all been a misunderstanding, they've been trying to save the world instead of breaking it, and (for the most part) have succeeded, blah blah blah.  

Meanwhile, people are disappearing under unusual circumstances -- and they're no ordinary people.  The police are investigating, but don't have the full story.  They don't know that the disappeared are psychics/witches/humans with some sort of supernatural power -- anything but monsters.  We did that in S6 and it was boring as Hell.

So -- who are these people, why are they being taken, and who is taking them?  By the mid-season finale, we should know the answers to those questions, but not how to stop the disappearances and the kidnapper.  That would be resolved during the second half of the season.

I think this could solve a lot of issues with the show.  Every episode could be (at least loosely) connected to the season myth arc.  The MotW episodes don't have to be about the missing people, but Sam and Dean have to investigate every lead.  If the MotW is not about a missing person, they still have a case to solve, but it won't feel like another episode that starts with one of them saying, "We don't have any leads on the Big Bad, so let's do this instead."

Just a thought.

[DittyDotDot]

I like that idea, demented one. It would be a really nice way to hit the reset button without actually resetting everything.

[7kstar]

9 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

If the MotW is not about a missing person, they still have a case to solve, but it won't feel like another episode that starts with one of them saying, "We don't have any leads on the Big Bad, so let's do this instead."

I agree they need to find a creative solution to why they are just doing a MotW without saying their usual catchphrase *in bold*.   Maybe that is the direction they want to go and the copycat bloodline pilot is a misdirect.  Sometimes I think the fans could write the show better than the real writers.  Ouch that's got to hurt.  :)

[MysteryGuest]

This was the first season that I really noticed them using that same line in almost every MOTW episode.  It got almost laughable by the end.  I did wonder at one point if they were actually doing it on purpose.  And if it wasn't a joke, then I'm surprised that Jensen and Jared didn't call them on it.  I mean they had to say the damn line in every episode.

[Omegamom]

http://tenoko1.tumblr.com/post/145932615683/just-screen-capped-these-its-official-lucifer

Luci is coming back.

[catrox14]

Sigh. I'm tired of Lucifer. Let him go for a damn half season already. Sheeesh.

Hmm. I think that explains why Jared said something about certain partie(s) trying to maybe possibly keep...the boys in Hell which Jared probably really meant Sam, and why Jensen said possibly maybe a path to Heaven...and given that Dean saw Mary...I think Dean's in Heaven.

[auntvi]

I'd rather Lucifer not come back, but if he has to I'm glad it's Mark Pellegrino. He knows how to be evil and horrible. Just please, no more torture porn .....

Quote

explains why Jared said something about certain partie(s) trying to maybe possibly keep...the boys in Hell

So Sam really was shot dead? Interesting.

Edited June 15, 2016 by auntvi

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I'd rather Lucifer not come back, but if he has to I'm glad it's Mark Pellegrino. He knows how to be evil and horrible. Just please, no more torture porn .....

So Sam really was shot dead? Interesting.

I thought Misha was pretty good in certain moments as Lucifer, but I'll be happy to see Castiel again. Like really Castiel.

As to Sam, not that I know of. I didn't mean to imply that he was. I'm just speculating as to why Jared said parties keeping them in Hell...unless he just misspoke or was trying to imply something different. Sorry if I was confusing.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, auntvi said:

I'd rather Lucifer not come back, but if he has to I'm glad it's Mark Pellegrino. He knows how to be evil and horrible. Just please, no more torture porn .....

So Sam really was shot dead? Interesting.

 

Here's where they said about Heaven and Hell and being coy little shits. This was before the finale.
 

Quote

 

Jensen: Given the conversation that is had with a certain character,...I would say that their  mission from here on out could pave the road to Heaven.

Jared: That having been said, it seems like..

Jensen: No, no. no. Just leave it...

Jared: There might be somebody or somebodies... that might be able to pull some strings who are really  trying to... hide us in Hell....seems like ...from a conversation  with a person...and with another person...and they look at each other....We're trying to get to Heaven but they might trying to pull us back into Hell.

 

Here's the video. Make of it what you will. But having listened to that again..and thinking about the looks exchanged between Crowley and Billie...maybe they are whom Jared is referring. HMMMMM

[MysteryGuest]

I was really hoping Lucifer was most sincerely dead.  I figured he wasn't, but I was hopeful.  I really would love for them to go in a different direction next season.  It will sort of piss me off if God's left town again without tying up some of his loose ends.

[auntvi]

Ya know, Pellegrino is working on other shows, right? So he probably will actually be on screen for just a few episodes. 

As for Hell, my brain has turned to mush, so I can't really make sense out of what Jared and Jensen were saying.

[DittyDotDot]

Eh, I'm not sure this means Lucifer is sincerely back. It could be a dream or flashback. If he comes back to the earthly plane in the form of a dead meat suit, I might have to call hijinks on that considering they made a point of it all this season.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Eh, I'm not sure this means Lucifer is sincerely back. It could be a dream or flashback. If he comes back to the earthly plane in the form of a dead meat suit, I might have to call hijinks on that considering they made a point of it all this season.

 

Did they actually say what happened to Nick's meatsuit?

[DittyDotDot]

Not specifically. Only that Nick was barely able to contain Lucifer and was burning away. I assumed that to mean Nick was mostly dead with Lucifer in him and would definitely be dead without Lucifer.

ETA: but they made a point to say the only reason Lucifer looked like Nick in Hell was because it was Hell. He'd need a meatsuit if he was on the Earthly plane. It didn't sound like Nick was still an option, IMO.

Edited June 16, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

I'm trying to figure out if Chuck healed both Cas and Lucifer. When Lucifer flew out of Cas he looked like Nick...so I wonder maybe God hooked up Lucifer with a permanent Nicksuit like Cas with Jimmy's meatsuit. Like a special deal.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, that's what I would be calling shenanigans on.

However, it probably won't matter what they do with Lucifer at this point for me. They've beat that poor dead horse so much that I just can't get interested in it anymore.

[AwesomO4000]

I'll be kind of glad if Lucifer is back, actually, mostly because the way they ended him this season was somewhat lame, and it seemed like there should've been more meaning/consequences for his escape. He had no impact on what happened with Amara, so there has been no real impact from his escape yet.

Also I'd like some of the closure to have to do with Sam. Yes Sam said "No," and that was good, but I didn't like how after Lucifer ended up in Castiel, the writers seemed to forget all about Sam's connection/arc with Lucifer and that Sam should be having feelings and reactions here... ones that we saw onscreen, not ones that the viewers had to guess at and piece together. Yes, Lucifer was in Castiel, so maybe more familiar and not as imposing as the Nick meatsuit, but Sam not having distressed feelings about him anyway would be like implying that Azazel was less scary / distressing when he was in John than when he was in his original meatsuit, because John was more familiar. (Which obviously not.)

So I'd like the Lucifer storyline to be shifted back over to Sam again. Quite a few recurring characters once associated with Sam - Azazel, Meg, Crowley, and now Lucifer - ended up shifted over to Dean or Castiel in the end. Arguably Sam really has maybe only Jody left of the current recurring characters. And only Jessica, Ruby and (unfortunately) Amelia really stayed as Sam associated characters. I'd like him to get Lucifer back.

[goldy]

Supernatural Stars Jared Padalecki and Jensen Ackles Drop Ominous Season 12 Scoop: 'Sam Gets 

http://tvline.com/2016/06/23/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-jensen-ackles-jared-padalecki-sam-shot/

 

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by goldy

[auntvi]

Is it unusual that Jared and Jensen are meeting with Singer and Dabb this week? Will J&J get script approval?

[catrox14]

No. I think they meet with the writers every year about the upcoming season or at least have phone conversations.  I think it might just be working out that they are in L.A. for the Saturn Awards and the photoshoot so do it all at once.

. Dean's mytharc is over so the pendulum will swing back to Sam, I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sad they didn't get JDM back for even a mini-arc. The only person Dean ever has talked about needing over the past 4 seasons...is John and having unresolved issues with is John. I just really don't see how Mary being back does anything for Dean's story.

Sam actually being shot is  stupid because they didn't even let us worry about about him by hearing him groan in pain or thud on the floor.

I dunno, I'm not feeling particularly optimistic about s12. Sorry to be such a naysayer but I'm pretty unhappy with the finale. I mostly want to know how Mary could have been resurrected by something that cannot give life. 

[goldy]

I'm actually pretty excited about Mary's return. I wasn't a fan of S11 and was ready to give up on the show until they brought Mary back. I think it would be interesting to see the boys interaction with her. 

In one of the the episodes in S11 we got to see the boys having what looks like a rare home cooked meal (with Jody) and how much they enjoyed it. I can totally see Mary cook for them and maybe we'll even get a Christmas (or some other holiday) episode of her with the boys. I think it would be kinda cool to see them having family moments with a parent that is actually soft and affectionate toward them (which is what I imagine Mary would be) I think it would be especially good for Dean. Maybe having Mary around would make him love himself more. And Sam would finally get to know his mom! He had such a troubled relationship with his dad, it would be nice to see him having a good relationship with his mom. 

I don't know if they'll make her help the boys with hunting though. Maybe she'll be like Bobby and mainly help them with researching the lore and answering phones (pretending to be their FBI superior and stuff like that) and only rarely help them out on an actual hunt.

[auntvi]

I don't think Mary will be "back" for much time at all. I think Dean and Mary are in an AU, maybe Heaven? I don't want to see a "Mom" taking care of Dean and Sam - it's like saying that's all a woman her age can do.

[goldy]

I agree that she'll probably won't be there for long but I hope Dean is not in an AU because I want Sam to see her too.

I don't see it that way. Mary taking care of Sam and Dean is not something that only an "old woman" can do its something that a MOM does, especially one that missed all of her kids childhood. And this show, at the heart of it, is a show about family (at least this is how I see it), so I would love to see Mary taking that traditional mom role (and provide us with some adorable family scenes) at least for an episode or two. It has nothing to do with her being old, its about her being a mom.

And speaking of Mary's age. She was 29 when she died, meaning that in theory she is actually younger than both Sam and Dean. I wonder if the writers are going to adress it. Also the actress that plays Mary is in her mid 40s. and while she is a very beautiful woman, she does not look like she is 29.

[Myrelle]

Mary and Dean have always rocked this Spn fan's heart like no one and nothing else ever has. Any way that they take it, they can do so much with this relationship. Will Mary retain all of her memories? If not, what will Dean do? And if so, her maternal instinct to protect her children will likely be alive and well and so very strong, and what will that mean, and again, what will Dean do? FWIW, I think that Amara did actually resurrect her and gave her back to Dean in the present time.

[catrox14]

5 hours ago, goldy said:

In one of the the episodes in S11 we got to see the boys having what looks like a rare home cooked meal (with Jody) and how much they enjoyed it.

Dean nested and cooked in his new kitchen but that's been totally forgotten as though it never happened. Having both Dean and Sam act like Dean never made them a good meal  in the bunker really pisses me off.

Unpopular opinion time. But I really don't like what Mary coming back means to the legacy of the show. For me her death was integral as to what happened to John and the boys. It's not the same as fridging a character for the angst. The entire point of John and the boys becoming hunters was to avenge Mary's death but her death was not to make John suffer. It was to bring about an apocalpyse. That's not a fridging in my book. I think of it like Batman's parents being murdered when he was a boy. It's the reason things happened. It's the origin story. It's not a fridging. Charlie's murder was a fridging IMO.

I've always found the dynamic with these three men but mostly Dean and Sam learning to live and survive without their mother  to be one of the most interesting aspects of the show. Dean has fulfilled the more traditional feminine aspects of parenthood; he's been the cook it seems, even as a boy, tending Sam's wounds, making sure he's fed and clothed and when John was alive trying to keep peace between John and Sam. Dean was kind of Sam's mom to an extent. 

I'm not bagging on mothers so don't get me wrong. I just think for THIS particular show, and this legacy it's not my favorite choice.  YMMV

Edited June 24, 2016 by catrox14

[goldy]

Quote

Dean nested and cooked in his new kitchen but that's been totally forgotten as though it never happened. Having both Dean and Sam act like Dean never made them a good meal  in the bunker really pisses me off.

Dean made a sandwich, I don't see it as the same as a home cooked meal. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by goldy

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Mary and Dean have always rocked this Spn fan's heart like no one and nothing else ever has. Any way that they take it, they can do so much with this relationship. Will Mary retain all of her memories? If not, what will Dean do? And if so, her maternal instinct to protect her children will likely be alive and well and so very strong, and what will that mean, and again, what will Dean do? FWIW, I think that Amara did actually resurrect her and gave her back to Dean in the present time.

 

For me, bringing Mary back is cruel to her and Dean. If she remembers that she made a deal but doesn't remember what happened that night nor what it would do to her children, my gods. That's like a punishment for Mary that I really don't think she deserves.  I mean she might have a mental breakdown realizing every terrible that has happened to her children because of one mistake that she made in a moment of her greatest grief when she was all of 19.

If she doesn't remember what happened, is it going to be up to Dean to lie to her or take her down a fucked up memory lane trip and destroy her all over again which will destroy Dean in the process?

I'm not seeing the upside to this, not for anyone really. It's kind of sick when I really think about it. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, goldy said:

Dean made a sandwich, I don't see it as the same as a home cooked meal. 

I think it's fair to surmise that over the years Dean has made them meals. He made Sam a gourmet cheeseburger not just a sandwich. He made some kind of family stew when Sam was sick in s8. He BBQ'd and made breakfasts when he was with Lisa. He made freaking taquitos and enchiladas from scratch for Death in s10. To me, that's a reasonable sampling of what he probably did on a regular basis. He might have backed off on the cooking after the whole MoC thing in general because he was miserable but that shouldn't negate what I think is canon that Dean is a frequent and good cook. . IMO it's not necessary to see him bake a chicken to think he can do it. Jody didn't make a gourmet meal. She baked a chicken, made mashed potatoes and veggies. AFAIC, that whole bit with Jody was for Jody's benefit at the expense of Dean's cooking history and it bugged me then and it bugs me now.

Mary showing up to cook seems unlikely. I hope that doesn't happen because she's gonna have a whole lot of shit to deal with before thinking about cooking a meal for her children she doesn't even know. I mean shit, the last thing she remembers if she remembers is being on the ceiling and burning. She might have even burned alive.

For me, if they have Mary immediately drop into "Mom takes care of the boys mode" without examining her stuff, yeah I'm not going to like that one little bit.

[7kstar]

I don't think Mary being back will be a long arch.  How long maybe 3 eps.  Because the boys are back to hunting after 3 eps, its the pattern.

Saying that Sam got shot doesn't have to mean he's really been hurt.  Her reaction after shooting him doesn't track with Sam dying or even near death.  I'm thinking it will be more of a switch and bait type thing.

Some of the spoilers are so lame that I don't think they have much to go on yet.  Jensen made it clear he wanted John back, but scheduling isn't possible.  So I wouldn't be surprised if Mary is the substitute for the story-line they wish they could do with John. 

I can go with Dean cooking home cook meals but tasting mash potatoes that were really different and loving them.  I have gone to a few restaurants that I really love their mash potatoes, much more than what my own mother's.  I also had one person cook liver in a way that I liked it.  I usually HATE it. 

Please expecting consistency...that is where you must use your imagination to figure out how on earth this new piece of information fits with the old.  Simple ever have someone in the family talk about a past story and you don't even remember it but they can tell the story in vivid details.  No one remembers everything exactly the same way, so our writers must have this same issue when they try to remember the past.  Yeah, that's all I got.  :)

[AwesomO4000]

I don't think it's going to be that myself. If I remember correctly, I think it was said somewhere that the dead just somehow know things, so I suspect that Mary will know in general what has happened, and she'll likely specifically know what Dean did here to save the world from Amara. And I think that is specifically what will be addressed. she will tell Dean that she is proud of him, and this will be something that Dean can take with him. This will be a gift from Amara to Dean.

I don't anticipate Sam even seeing Mary, since he is likely going to be elsewhere. My speculation was that he's going to be either dragged back to England or to some secret MOL lair where he's going to be tortured and/or experimented on to try to see if they can get his powers to come back for some nefarious reason or another... or you know, for science.

[ZennyKenny]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean nested and cooked in his new kitchen but that's been totally forgotten as though it never happened. Having both Dean and Sam act like Dean never made them a good meal  in the bunker really pisses me off.

I know right? Remember the healthy egg whites that he cooked up? I swear I remember more, but I can't place them exactly.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

I don't think Mary being back will be a long arch.  How long maybe 3 eps.  Because the boys are back to hunting after 3 eps, its the pattern.

It's the pattern under Carver. Dabb might do something different.

 

14 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

Please expecting consistency...that is where you must use your imagination to figure out how on earth this new piece of information fits with the old.  Simple ever have someone in the family talk about a past story and you don't even remember it but they can tell the story in vivid details.  No one remembers everything exactly the same way, so our writers must have this same issue when they try to remember the past.  Yeah, that's all I got.  :)

These are professional writers who have story editors and script supervisors. I'm tired of making excuses for the writers dismantling and forgetting their TWO MAIN CHARACTERS story points. I can remember something different than my brother because theoretically neither of us have put our lives on DVD. I know I haven't! LOL. They can watch their own damn show!

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ZennyKenny said:

I know right? Remember the healthy egg whites that he cooked up? I swear I remember more, but I can't place them exactly.

Oh I forgot about the egg white omelettes that Sam loved. I listed a few but I feel like there is more. Oh he made all manner of macaroni and cheese for Sam as they were growing up. He told Tina that in About A Boy. 

Yeah this revisionist dismissal of IMO a cool character trait of Dean's sucks. I didn't like him being sidelined in s8 to be solely Sam's caregiver and cheerleader but I liked that he cooked. 

[auntvi]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Mary showing up to cook seems unlikely. I hope that doesn't happen because she's gonna have a whole lot of shit to deal with before thinking about cooking a meal for her children she doesn't even know. I mean shit, the last thing she remembers if she remembers is being on the ceiling and burning. She might have even burned alive.

For me, if they have Mary immediately drop into "Mom takes care of the boys mode" without examining her stuff, yeah I'm not going to like that one little bit.

Thank you! You said it much better than I did.

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's the pattern under Carver. Dabb might do something different.

I'd say it's been the pattern of the show under Kripke and Gamble too. I certainly would love to see them break out of this pattern, but I'm not sure a new showrunner will make it happen. I want to believe, though, boy do I want to believe!

Yes, I'm still doing my X-files rewatch! ;)

10 hours ago, auntvi said:

I don't think Mary will be "back" for much time at all. I think Dean and Mary are in an AU, maybe Heaven? I don't want to see a "Mom" taking care of Dean and Sam - it's like saying that's all a woman her age can do.

I'm not sure that Dean and Mary aren't in some other realm of existence, as well. And, I'd also be surprised if she stuck around for more than a couple episodes. Even if she does, I'm not too worried she'll just become "mom" of the bunker. Mary didn't want a hunter's life and never wanted it for her kids, I'm not so sure she's gonna be all that supportive of their current lifestyle. Plus, I don't think Mary's one to sit around cleaning and cooking while everyone is out in the fields. 

Of course, this is only if the show actually remembers who Mary Winchester was previously shown to be. Yeah, I needed a good laugh this morning! Long days and all that. ;)

9 hours ago, goldy said:

And speaking of Mary's age. She was 29 when she died, meaning that in theory she is actually younger than both Sam and Dean. I wonder if the writers are going to address it. 

This is a very interesting point. It could lead to some interesting story, but...well, see above.

Edited June 24, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[auntvi]

During his live Facebook today, Jared said he's read the first 2 episodes and under penalty of death would not drop any spoilers. But then he said that he couldn't say if Sam was really dead, but that you know Supernatural, people don't stay dead. So, Sam is dead and then what? Who/what brings him back?

[ZennyKenny]

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I forgot about the egg white omelettes that Sam loved. I listed a few but I feel like there is more. Oh he made all manner of macaroni and cheese for Sam as they were growing up. He told Tina that in About A Boy. 

Yeah this revisionist dismissal of IMO a cool character trait of Dean's sucks. I didn't like him being sidelined in s8 to be solely Sam's caregiver and cheerleader but I liked that he cooked. 

I mean the dude literally has Death's seal of approval. If you intentionally use "the bad fat", and Death himself chows down on it... well that's pretty much the highest praise I can think of.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I mean the dude literally has Death's seal of approval. If you intentionally use "the bad fat", and Death himself chows down on it... well that's pretty much the highest praise I can think of.

I wish I could Like this over and over. This is so perfect.

[ZennyKenny]

28 minutes ago, auntvi said:

During his live Facebook today, Jared said he's read the first 2 episodes and under penalty of death would not drop any spoilers. But then he said that he couldn't say if Sam was really dead, but that you know Supernatural, people don't stay dead. So, Sam is dead and then what? Who/what brings him back?

Huh. I honestly hadn't given any thought to whether or not Sam is dead. With the threat of NOTHING coming back from the Empty, it sort of had the opposite effect on me (as in LESS threatening rather than more). Neither Sam nor Dean are going to be permakilled for obvious reasons, so putting permadeath on the table like that basically states "we're never going to temporarily 'kill' either lead.".

 

But hey, maybe Billie is wrong about nothing escaping the Empty and Sam really does die.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

But hey, maybe Billie is wrong about nothing escaping the Empty and Sam really does die.

Maybe Billie actually saves Sam by dumping him in the Empty which might tie into Jared saying some persons or persons might be trying to "hide them in Hell"

[MysteryGuest]

Didn't they die enough last season?  Really, enough with the dying already.  Surely there are ways to make the storyline interesting without always having one of them teetering on the edge of death.  I really want to be optimistic about next season, but sometimes I almost wish they wouldn't give these pre-season spoiler interviews.  It just depresses me.

[ZennyKenny]

52 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe Billie actually saves Sam by dumping him in the Empty which might tie into Jared saying some persons or persons might be trying to "hide them in Hell"

Huh, never thought of that. She said "Nothing comes back from the Empty", but maybe she meant that nothing comes back of its own free will (no escape route like Limbo). But that's doesn't mean that Billie herself can't pull souls out.

52 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Didn't they die enough last season?  Really, enough with the dying already.  Surely there are ways to make the storyline interesting without always having one of them teetering on the edge of death.  I really want to be optimistic about next season, but sometimes I almost wish they wouldn't give these pre-season spoiler interviews.  It just depresses me.

Honestly by the time Metatron killed Dean (forgot what season that was) I was already over it. Didn't feel a thing. His "I'm proud of us" was a great line, but it would have had a bigger impact on me in, say, the season 3 finale.

Edited June 25, 2016 by ZennyKenny

[ahrtee]

There's no reason to think that Sam died.  Per SPN Wiki transcript:

TONI:

They sent me to take you in.

SAM:

To take me in?

TONI:

Assuming the world didn't end, and -- Yay.

They already showed Toni as being cool and unflappable, so we can assume that she can shoot *very well* and hit what she's aiming at. The MoL obviously wanted him alive, and there was no reason for her to shoot to kill, even if she was feeling threatened by Sam walking (slowly, not rushing) towards her.   (I keep remembering Bella, with her:  "Relax--it's only a flesh wound.  I *can* aim, you know!")

[7kstar]

If Sam is dead, they blew it.  I mean nothing in the final makes me think that.

46 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

They already showed Toni as being cool and unflappable, so we can assume that she can shoot *very well* and hit what she's aiming at. The MoL obviously wanted him alive, and there was no reason for her to shoot to kill, even if she was feeling threatened by Sam walking (slowly, not rushing) towards her.   (I keep remembering Bella, with her:  "Relax--it's only a flesh wound.  I *can* aim, you know!")

IA and plus add that the sound we heard was a bullet hitting the ground.  Not a way to make the impact that Sam is near death again. 

 

16 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Didn't they die enough last season?  Really, enough with the dying already.  Surely there are ways to make the storyline interesting without always having one of them teetering on the edge of death.  I really want to be optimistic about next season, but sometimes I almost wish they wouldn't give these pre-season spoiler interviews.  It just depresses me.

I'm even over the character's deaths.  Kevin's death brought zero reaction, couldn't even say I felt something with Dean's reactions.  Charlie's I was just mad, because it was so stupid in how they did it.  I really wish they would go to something than a near death.  It's been done so much that is is meaningless now.

Just a thought and I doubt they would do it, what if the so-called near death is so Sam can be with Mary and Dean.  Then it would make it about hiding them from Billie.  Of course how the get the do over would be a question, unless Cas can do it. If it was a cat and mouse game of chase keeping the boys away from Billie that might be interesting for a few eps.  

[MysteryGuest]

You'd think that Billie would be willing to cut them a bit of slack, considering they saved the world, including her...again.  I'm assuming they came up with the Empty as a way of ramping up repetitive death scenes, but even the threat of the Empty has gotten old for me.  I don't think anyone who watches Supernatural believes for a second that Sam or Dean are going to die, permanently.  At least not until the show is ending.  So they need to find their drama somewhere else.

[ZennyKenny]

23 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

You'd think that Billie would be willing to cut them a bit of slack, considering they saved the world, including her...again.  I'm assuming they came up with the Empty as a way of ramping up repetitive death scenes, but even the threat of the Empty has gotten old for me.  I don't think anyone who watches Supernatural believes for a second that Sam or Dean are going to die, permanently.  At least not until the show is ending.  So they need to find their drama somewhere else.

Exactly! Now if Billie threatened to put someone the Winchesters cared about, like Mary, into the Empty, THAT would have legit tension to it. Because we would know that it could be entirely possible.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

They already showed Toni as being cool and unflappable, so we can assume that she can shoot *very well* and hit what she's aiming at. The MoL obviously wanted him alive, and there was no reason for her to shoot to kill, even if she was feeling threatened by Sam walking (slowly, not rushing) towards her.   (I keep remembering Bella, with her:  "Relax--it's only a flesh wound.  I *can* aim, you know!")

So I'm thinking now it was a tranquilizer dart? I mean why would they injure him if they need info or whatever. Why risk infection or something from a bullet wound?  If it  was tranquilizer then maybe that's why we didn't hear Sam making sounds of pain and no thud because it hit his neck and he slowly slumped to the floor. That's my working theory going forward

Edited June 25, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I don't think Sam is dead or near death.  But even if he is... well, that'll be corrected NLT episode 3 and most likely the end of EP 1.  But there could be some interesting moments, ESPECIALLY if he thinks Dean is dead.... which he does.

[goldy]

Supernatural Star Jared Padalecki: Sam 'Would Like Answers' About His Mother

http://tvline.com/2016/06/26/supernatural-spoilers-season-12-jared-padalecki-sam-mary-reunion-scene/

[catrox14]

Unless Jared has gone completely out of his pattern of talking about the SL's that affect Sam more than Dean's, I'm thinking now that if Mary is on the earthly plane and she remembers her deal then she'll ask Dean to take her to Sam who probably won't be there because of Lady Milady. And it becomes Dean and Mary trying to find Sam. And along they way, Dean will tell her all about Sam's upbringing. 

I will happily eat my hat if that does not turn out to be the case and that Dean and Mary talk about Dean's life, but I'm not gonna hold my breath