Spoilers With Speculation

[DittyDotDot]

17 hours ago, SueB said:

https://twitter.com/cw_spn/status/735194556069601280

 

Thank Chuck they didn't wait until tomorrow.   I needed this tidbit.  And they've left Lucifer's status vague as of this clip. But he's not in Cas so YaY!

Yippie the devil is gone!!!!  I wanted to assume it, but that can sometimes end in heartbreak with this show. ;)

So, after sleeping on it--and, yeah, having a dream about...shut up--I'm even more convinced Dean's soul bomb will work, but it'll take some "fiddling" with it to get it functional in the end. Why? Because, to me, this whole thing is set up to be Dean's Swan Song.

But, I'm now questioning if they'll leave Dean's fate as a cliffhanger? I've believed all season Dean would be the one to sacrifice himself in the end, and I still believe that, but now I wonder if they'll actually leave Dean dead or resurrect him before the end of it? I just wonder if they finally realized that having one of the boys' fates unknown at the end of the season isn't really all that suspenseful since we know they'll get out of it next season?

[NoWillToResist]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, after sleeping on it--and, yeah, having a dream about...shut up--I'm even more convinced Dean's soul bomb will work, but it'll take some "fiddling" with it to get it functional in the end. Why? Because, to me, this whole thing is set up to be Dean's Swan Song.

If they're going with a Swan Song for Dean, maybe the soul bomb works but it takes his soul too, so we'll get a re-tread of a soul-less Winchester too. ;)

[SueB]

8 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

If they're going with a Swan Song for Dean, maybe the soul bomb works but it takes his soul too, so we'll get a re-tread of a soul-less Winchester too. ;)

Bite your tongue!  I don't need soulless Dean.  DemonDean was scary enough.  No soul?  I'd say get off any continent that Baby doesn't drive to. 

[DittyDotDot]

I kinda thought Demon Dean was Soulless Dean, so I hope they don't go that route again. What I'm hoping is, now that they seem to be tidying up Carver's 3-year plan that was stretched to 4, they do a soft reboot of the show and head into uncharted territory next season. 

[SueB]

I DO think it's take 1-2 episodes to clean up S11 in S12.  That's generally they're play.  And yes, this is (IMO) the Carver 3 year plan stretched to 4.

[Aeryn13]

Over on spoiler-tv they have those May scorecards. I don`t think too many shows still haven`t had their Finales but as of now there are still two unfilled slots for "fatalities" as well as "possible fatalities aka cliffhangers" and one each for "major job change" and "leaving town". They apply those terms quite loosely so it could be God quitting/leaving.

Interestingly enough no slot for "big return". Either they don`t count Mary Winchester or it is gonna be added. After the scene with Amara and the picture, I`m reasonably sure we will get a Mary sighting. Even if it is just Amara shapeshifting into her. Would be a rip off to the Mother of all Monsters but it`s not like they never ripped themselves off before.

I also think Arrow will grab one fatality. The others could be fair game for Supernatural.  

[catrox14]

 

Andrew's got his Troll on

Edited May 25, 2016 by catrox14

[NoWillToResist]

So, everyone seems to think the audience will be emotionally crippled by this finale. And, damn my cold, black heart, but only two things would really resonate with me: Cas dying/leaving, or Mary Winchester appearing and talking to Dean.

Anything involving Sam or Dean's fate is a fake out, so I can't imagine being gutted over either one of them making the big "sacrifice"...

[Demented Daisy]

5 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, after sleeping on it--and, yeah, having a dream about...shut up

Okay, that is hilarious because last night I had a dream that Castiel is, and always has been... wait for it... Jesus.  It was crazy.

[GirlyGeek]

I've been staying away from fandom a bit, but as per usual I'm excited for the finale.

Ever since seeing that picture of Mary last week I wondered why Amara was interested in it.  Then I thought maybe Mary (and maybe John?) is in this Void/Blackness (which may or may not be part of Amara's The Darkness)?  It seems to be brought up a bunch that they're not in Heaven, and with the recent mention from Dean (i.e. his talk with God) and the picture, that's what it made me think of.  I know there's been spec of this for years.

I'm getting the sense, too, that this won't be a cliffhanger wondering about 'who died?' or making us think someone died all summer.  It feels more like mentioned above, Swan Song, where it will be a planned sacrifice with goodbyes.
The 'OMG Dean/Sam is dead, I can't believe it, what will I do all summer while I worry' just doesn't jive anymore on this show where death means next to nothing.  Sacrifice, however, still does in some ways.

And while I said this last year (and was pretty sure then), I wouldn't be surprised if we see both Mark and Misha exiting stage left.

But I'm usually wrong  :)

[trxr4kids]

Now that the finale is done does anybody have a spec based on Jensen and Jared's answer to the question asked at JIBcon about where Dean and Sam will end up? I'm paraphrasing and don't have the link but Jensen said their upcoming mission could put them on the path to heaven and then Jared said something about somebody or somebodies trying to hide them in hell. I can't figure out who could or would do that or why.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I have to think that since God left the care of mankind to Sam and Dean, that should ensure a place for them in heaven.  Of course, there's always Crowley, and there could potentially be an evil MOL, so I guess we'll have to wait to see who wants them in hell.

Edited May 27, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

18 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

Now that the finale is done does anybody have a spec based on Jensen and Jared's answer to the question asked at JIBcon about where Dean and Sam will end up? I'm paraphrasing and don't have the link but Jensen said their upcoming mission could put them on the path to heaven and then Jared said something about somebody or somebodies trying to hide them in hell. I can't figure out who could or would do that or why.

If the CW's press release has any merit..I'm not sure the MoL qualifies as the MOST destructive force they will ever face.
 

Quote

 

9:00-10:00 P.M. “SUPERNATURAL”

The thrilling and terrifying journey of the Winchester brothers continues as SUPERNATURAL enters its twelfth season. Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) have spent their lives on the road, battling every kind of supernatural threat. Over the years, after countless bloody adventures, they have faced everything from the yellow-eyed demon that killed their mother to vampires, ghosts, shapeshifters, angels and fallen gods. In the show’s eleventh season, the Winchesters found themselves battling an apocalyptic force: the Darkness. Now, rallying help from their allies - both human and supernatural - Sam and Dean are about to go toe-to-toe with the most destructive enemy they've ever seen. The question is, will they win? And at what price? SUPERNATURAL is from Warner Bros. Television in association with Wonderland Sound and Vision, with executive producers Jeremy Carver (“Being Human”) and Phil Sgriccia, and executive consultant Robert Singer (“Midnight Caller”).

 

I'm kind of hoping that it will be Jesse back as the Anti-Christ.

[Aeryn13]

The press release is a bit odd but since it came out before the Season Finale, they couldn`t really spoil the outcome nor the new "cliffhanger" so IMO that sentence still refers to Season 11. The "most destructive enemy" is still Amara. 

Arrow and Flash had the same problem with their press releases because all three shows hadn`t aired their Finales yet at the time of the Upfronts.  

[catrox14]

Upon rewatch I think Amara sent Dean back to the night Mary was killed. I can see a scenario where Dean will be faced with the ultimate test of his not fucking with the Natural Order again. If the Natural Order was for Mary to die that night..with Dean knowing all that has happened, what will he do?

And I think Dean's reaction upon seeing Mary was not a happy one at all. Not just shock but 'OH FUCK this is not a good thing.'

[Aeryn13]

I think Amara had good intentions. If she had sent Dean back to that night, I believe it would have been to the house so he could save her, I guess. But the Flash writers already cornered the market on that happening in the Finale. 

My guess would be this is the Mary last seen in Home aka her ghost. Yes, it was said she "destroyed" herself going after the Poltergeist but since we have so many realms now, there has to be one where ghosts go after they`ve been dealt with. And Dean gets a chance to get her out of there and into Heaven maybe. So he would have a nice resolution with her. 

It strikes me a bit odd that this would be the thing Dean needs the most but okay. And no matter if Amara sent him back in time or to another supernatural realm, it would be super-weird since neither her nor God planned on sticking around. I don`t think we will see either again for the duration of the show, well, maybe Chuck for a Series Finale. They both looked at Dean quite happily and fondly so obviously they do not wish him harm. But as a human, being send back in time or to a place not on Earth poses a problem for him. It would be one thing if they stayed around to lend a helping hand but like this? 

Then again. Chuck just transferred the guardianship of the Planet to him and Sam. Like, seriously? They interact on such a level but unless he imbued them with Godlike powers, it`s not something they can swing.       

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then again. Chuck just transferred the guardianship of the Planet to him and Sam. Like, seriously? They interact on such a level but unless he imbued them with Godlike powers, it`s not something they can swing.       

I really did laugh at Chuck saying the Earth was in good hands with Dean and Sam. LOL. I was like uh Chuck...what?

[SueB]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

If the CW's press release has any merit..I'm not sure the MoL qualifies as the MOST destructive force they will ever face.
 

I'm kind of hoping that it will be Jesse back as the Anti-Christ.

It's got Carver as show runner. This was probably written pre-finale as that bolded sentences sounds a lot like EP22 & EP23 IMO.  Plus no mention of Lady Toni as a new cast member.  I've seen even worse write-ups than this, but this is pretty low... even for the CW.

[MysteryGuest]

So are we to assume that the MOL had decided to lock up Sam and Dean to keep them from breaking the world again?  I can't imagine they would feel the need to interrogate them, since they're just mouth-breathing hunters as far as they're concerned.  It might be kind of fun to watch our boys take on the snooty British faction of the MOL and teach them a thing or two about how the real world works with angels and demons mucking things up.  You can't learn everything from a book.  If they write it well enough, it could make for an entertaining storyline for next year.

We could get some good action scenes, but also maybe bring back some of the humor to the show.  Things have been pretty dark for the past few seasons.  Sam and Dean deserve a bit of fun.

[MysteryGuest]

http://www.parentherald.com/articles/46430/20160530/supernatural-season-12-air-date-spoilers-sam-dean-face-against.htm

This doesn't contain many spoilers, but it does maybe give us a hint as to where the writers will go next year.  I think it could be interesting.  Let's face it, there's not much left in the supernatural world that the boys have yet to face, other than aliens, and I don't see the show going there.  At least not until season 20.  

If they are on the run from the MoL, at least in the beginning, that would get them back to the cheesy hotels, etc., that everyone seemed to love.  I still hope the bunker sticks around, but it does seem like the secret's out in that regard.  I mean, who hasn't been in the bunker at this point?  And if Amara truly burned off the warding, then it's no longer a safe place.  Maybe they can re-ward?

[Aeryn13]

Hee. I saw the headline "big changes ahead" and rolled my eyes because every year they promise a changed landscape and things never being the same again and so far the status quo has dutifully remained. But then I read the article and it just refered to the change of showrunner and different airdate. For once, they have an actual change. Even it is just BTS.

[SueB]

I thought I'd match up the finale with what scant spoilers/hints we DO have;

Lady Toni - Her casting spoiler indicates she has a 'connection' with the boys. COULD just be MoL, but the details of her son and her own Winchester Wall of Weird in the finale implies more than just MoL connection.  I'm going to guess (as have others) that one of the boys adventures resulted in the death of her husband, so she's got a vendetta going on.

Bille & Crowley plus Chuck/God - at JIBCON, J2 spoiled that in addition to setting up next year, we would see that the boys MAY get a shot a Heaven, while others are working to get them to Hell.  Welp.  THAT was not discussed (the future of Sam & Dean's souls postmortem) explicitly. But Billie is ALWAYS a reminder that she intends to dump their pretty little souls into The Empty when they die.  And she gave Dean another 'I'm gonna get you' look when she said she'd be seeing them but hopefully not THAT day. SO... I'm thinking that the J2 hinting was about them getting out from under this "Empty" issue.  And the two forces working are Chuck and God.  With God saying that the earth is fine because it has Sam and Dean, that certainly is a case for saying God is routing for them to go to Heaven when it's over.  But then we have Billie and THAT LOOK with Crowley.  And everyone is suddenly wondering if these two have had some sort of fling... and I'm thinking what if that look is because Billie and Crowley have a DEAL.  If Sam and/or Dean die, she'll let Crowley have their souls so he can make them his puppy or something.  Crowley may have been able to convince Billie that what HE has in store for the boys is worse than the Empty.  Which might appeal to her.  Or maybe he's bargained with her to get a shot at them FIRST before she tosses them into the empty. Billie mentioned she liked having the King of Hell owe her a favor... I'm not sure WHAT he offers her, but if he has something to bargain with ... then cutting a deal about their souls is well withing his wheelhouse.  Maybe he's still pissed at Samantha for the human blood or the delivering Mommy's hex bag.  Maybe he wants to see if he can break Dean because he couldn't when he was a Knight.  IDK. But I'm putting a "pin" in that J2 spoiler that the Billie/Crowley thing may be related.

S12 breadcrumbs without spoilers (as far as I know):
- Heaven is closed and wants to die with dignity - well THAT was a bust. But how do they feel about Castiel? He was part of God's Shock and Awe plan.  Does that give him credibility? And are the doors going to be opened again or is the veil going to get backed up.
- Billie took 200,000+ souls out of the veil.  Is that the average number of souls in the veil at a given time or were there more there due to the Angels only having a small conduit now?  Personal headcanon: when Heaven was closed, many souls (like Kevin's) who would have moved on got stuck and the Reapers can't reap the backlog.  Maybe THAT's part of her deal with Crowley.  Maybe he's helping? (Just speculation, no real intel here)
- Someone stole Crowley's souls.  But he still has powers (even if it's just the ability to open a door and/or wink out of Kansas).
- Rowena's rep: good for her that she helped save the universe... but she got 5 more sister-witches killed.  I don't know who she turns to for company.  And what exactly would be her goal right now? Killing Fergus or the boys seems sort of gauche after just working with them to save the universe.  No one is going to sign up for Mega Coven deal. But is she just going to retire to the country, drink tea, and wear fabulous gowns in front of no one?  Seems unlikely.  
- Cas, my sweet baboo (tm TWOP) -- he's on Sam duty now and just got blown to some distant local.  Seems his job #1 is to get back to the bunker and find Sam. From there, it could go in a 100 different directions. 

Have I missed any spoilers? Have I missed any finale breadcrumbs?   

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

15 hours ago, SueB said:

and I'm thinking what if that look is because Billie and Crowley have a DEAL

ahh! That actually makes sense...and it seemed like only Rowena noticed their smirks?

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND said:

ahh! That actually makes sense...and it seemed like only Rowena noticed their smirks?

Dean noticed their exchange of looks as well.

From 11.10

Quote

Billie: Not a demon. Name’s Billie.

Dean: The reaper, Billie? My brother says you want to kill us.

Billie: No. I’m just gonna make sure that when you die, you stay dead. Subtle difference.

Dean: So what, you work for Crowley?

Billie: With, not for. Strange days, Winchester. Times like this, it doesn’t hurt to have the King owe you a favour.

Dean already knew that Crowley and Billie were working together and I don't think he would have just forgotten that but maybe he did.

Death is the only person who said he would reap God. I don't think standard reapers could reap God. Yet Billie said she would reap God. Maybe she was Death all along or somehow became the new Death sometime between 11.01 and the finale and she had to earn that job at some point. Perhaps Crowley pinged that Billie was now Death and it was just his amusement at that idea. But Chuck should have known that Billie was Death so why didn't he react to Billie saying she would reap Chuck? 

Crowley has too good of a poker face when it comes to his deal making. He would never show his hand if they were up to secret shenanigans. To me that was like someone he hadn't seen for a long time that he had a connection with beyond whatever deals they had before hand. (See above) Maybe Billie was Fergus' reaper back in the day and he hadn't seen her in person until now. Kind of like the relationship between Dean and Tessa.

Or maybe he just thinks Billie is hot and she was flirting with him a bit.

[SueB]

Maybe he found a new drinking buddy?  Seriously.  There's a lot in common there. 

[Omegamom]

I just think Crowley and Billie have A Thing going on.  Anyone's better than Lola!

[7kstar]

Question, with the Darkness Gone, could Sam have his powers back?  What if they weren't gone but suppressed and Toni is the last straw that frees them once again.  Jared's hinted that but there hasn't been a reason to believe it.  So if Sam powers returned, with the don't worry, You've got Sam and Dean...  This whole season has been about returning to the saving people and hunting things the family business. 

If next season goes in a direction that the superheros have gone, that even though you've saved the world, you have harmed so many, too many.  So if this season takes that on, it could get back to the boys on the run, fun odd hotel rooms, and showing the difference between hunters and MOL.

If they haven't forgotten about Jesse as the Anti-Christ and want to pull him into the storyline maybe he's connected to the British MOL.

So the big questions that we know...Where's Dean?  Is Sam okay?  What's Crowley doing now that he no longer cares about Dean or does he?   When will Cass get back and will he figure out anything about Dean or Sam?  How long is Mom sticking around?

Things we know, the boys are usually never separated more than 3 eps, so either another tiresome flashback or Dean is back in three.  The one to pay attention to might be Jared as he seems to be making the bigger slips in spoilers.  Still lots of stuff to consider and maybe inspire the fanfiction muse.  :)

[SueB]

Apparently at AHBL, Mark mentioned that Billie has something Crowley wants .... souls.  Intriguing.

I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm having a few kittens over the idea that they will lose their "home" for at least part if not all the year.  I think the old foggeys are going to keep them out of the bunker.  Which would make me not happy.  

[MysteryGuest]

I definitely don't want to lose the bunker, so if they have to go on the lam, I hope it's only for a while.  I'm assuming the bunker can be warded again against monsters, demons, etc., like it was before.  But I don't think they can keep the MoL out, unfortunately.  I was convinced that Amara was going to leave the bunker in ruins when she destroyed the warding, so I was very relieved to see that not happen.

If I were a betting woman, I'd say that Sam was not shot.  I'm hoping it was because Lady whoever was just firing a warning shot, and not because A) she's a mere woman and can't shoot straight, or B) Sam has some sort of super-powered bullet proofing.  I'm completely done with Sam and his demon blood, so I hope the writers are too.  I want Sam and Dean as mortals...but totally experienced, seen everything, kick ass mortals!

[catrox14]

54 minutes ago, SueB said:

Apparently at AHBL, Mark mentioned that Billie has something Crowley wants .... souls.  Intriguing.

I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm having a few kittens over the idea that they will lose their "home" for at least part if not all the year.  I think the old foggeys are going to keep them out of the bunker.  Which would make me not happy.  

 

Okay so his former minions raided his stash. But he IS the fucking King of Hell. All he had to do was go into Hell himself and take souls if that's what he wanted to do. IMO he's playing another long game.

Crowley never doesn't have plan B to Infinity. He's a cockroach.  Even if Crowley thought the world was ending, IMO he'd have a survival plan. Just in case, he survives. I'm willing to think Crowley has at least ONE stash of souls no one else knows about and he wasn't about to give that up no matter what. Maybe  that little exchange was because Billie knows Crowley has a stash and she wasn't letting on to anyone else. 

Chuck probably knew but maybe he was really okay with that nugget of info not being put out there because he still in his heart didn't want Amara to be killed. OH HEY screw you, Chuck. I see your projection onto Dean, you asshat.

Edited June 4, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

Crowley's been shown to make almost any deal to garner more souls, so who knows.  He thought he had a deal with Cas for those purgatory souls, but that didn't work out so well.  

I have to say, I don't honestly get how the whole soul thing works.  When you die, theoretically, your soul goes to heaven (or hell, as the case may be), so the idea that they were gathering up all of these souls to make this bomb seems rather bad, doesn't it?  I mean you've died and gone to heaven, and think you have it made, and all of a sudden you're being sucked out of heaven, or the veil, or wherever, so someone can use up your soul power to make a weapon?  It's like a double death, isn't it? Or am I missing something?  Do the souls survive this?  

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

Crowley never doesn't have plan B to Infinity. He's a cockroach.  Even if Crowley thought the world was ending, IMO he'd have a survival plan.

Someone with artistic skills needs to draw a "Crowley as a cockroach" to go with Salmon Dean. Maybe a little cockroach on the side, adding snarky comments.

49 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Crowley's been shown to make almost any deal to garner more souls, so who knows.  He thought he had a deal with Cas for those purgatory souls, but that didn't work out so well.  

I have to say, I don't honestly get how the whole soul thing works.  When you die, theoretically, your soul goes to heaven (or hell, as the case may be), so the idea that they were gathering up all of these souls to make this bomb seems rather bad, doesn't it?  I mean you've died and gone to heaven, and think you have it made, and all of a sudden you're being sucked out of heaven, or the veil, or wherever, so someone can use up your soul power to make a weapon?  It's like a double death, isn't it? Or am I missing something?  Do the souls survive this?  

Billie said she raided the veil.  So these were the stuck souls.  Like Kevin or others who were legit ghosts due to unfinished business.  Now, I've personally theorized that Kevin was stuck because once you become self-aware in the veil, you need resolution to get un-stuck. Or, just as likely, the reapers got backed up and (using the statistics of 55M people die a year) they were still cleaning out the 20-30 million that had resolution but got stuck in S8 ... but maybe it's a slower process to get in through that ONE door.  IDK.

As for the souls surviving: I honestly don't know what would have happened to them if they destroyed Amara with the souls.  Perhaps it's a matter/antimatter thing OR perhaps it's a power-overload. OTOH, if you believe Souls come from The Light (and Chuck said he DID make them).... the I think that those souls who were originally part of the soul bombs went straight into Chuck -- which is probably like "uber happiness".  Because all the Angels, and as poignantly portrayed by Metatron IMO. just wanted to be WITH God. He was the light. He brought them joy.  And they still seemed self-aware not just blissed-out.  So, I'd say those souls who were potentially almost sacrificed to overpower Amara, ended up winning the soul jackpot and are always in God's presence... but like inside him.  Maybe they experience what Chuck experiences. Maybe he parked them in heaven on the way out (which would then require therapy for those souls... having been de-happied so quickly). 

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Crowley's been shown to make almost any deal to garner more souls, so who knows.  He thought he had a deal with Cas for those purgatory souls, but that didn't work out so well.  

I have to say, I don't honestly get how the whole soul thing works.  When you die, theoretically, your soul goes to heaven (or hell, as the case may be), so the idea that they were gathering up all of these souls to make this bomb seems rather bad, doesn't it?  I mean you've died and gone to heaven, and think you have it made, and all of a sudden you're being sucked out of heaven, or the veil, or wherever, so someone can use up your soul power to make a weapon?  It's like a double death, isn't it? Or am I missing something?  Do the souls survive this?  

Their entire plan was stupid and faulty and non-sensical.

Nothing about Amara's ending makes a lick of sense.

-Amara is God. Therefore Amara is infinite. She gained strength from eating souls and it didn't matter if that energy was human, demon or angel grace and she kept all those souls inside her so they could live forever.  She said it herself.

IThis isn't like a horse eating too many oats and dying. Even if Dean blew himself up, there was literally NO reason to think it would blow up Amara too. If anything she should have just gotten MORE powerful because she would have been all 'Join with me my children! We will be in bliss for eternity".

So how exactly was her being exposed to even more of the souls that she herself intended to keep inside forever actually going to hurt her.

The stupid. It burns. 

 

Dean's idea to use the ghost souls was rather humane for the ghosts because they had become vengeful spirits and it saved the lives of anyone foolish enough to go inside the haunted asylum. I presume reapers gave those souls the same lecture  Tessa gave to Dean in that  if they stayed on Earth they would become vengeful. So Dean's idea was probably the best way to do it. 

Billie raiding the veil might have also been humane to those that were possibly going to Hell instead of Heaven. Heck even souls that were going to Heaven might not have been happy with being in Heaven if it's solo place like Bobby's.
 

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, SueB said:

Billie said she raided the veil.  So these were the stuck souls.  Like Kevin or others who were legit ghosts due to unfinished business.  N

I thought at all souls have the choice of whether or not they leave the earthly plane see: Tessa talking to Dean in 2.01. They don't choose Heaven or Hell but they choose whether or not to leave and if they don't leave they become vengeful spirits.

I thought those that were stuck in the veil were stuck there because of Metatron closing off Heaven and that reapers can't get into the Veil to take them where they are supposed to go. Didn't Tessa say it drove her mad because she couldn't take them to Heaven or Hell because she couldn't get into the Veil?

So if Billie was an ordinary reaper she shouldn't have been able to get in there either. So does that mean Billie is actually the new Death?

Maybe the exchange of glances between Billie and Crowley is because Crowley knows she's Death and isnt telling. Maybe Death and Crowley are allies now.

[DittyDotDot]

I thought it wasn't that they were trying overload Amara with power--like Castiel and the souls from Purgatory--but the souls would create such a burst of light that would be deadly to Amara. Think of the soul bomb as being a sudden emergence of a new sun. I don't think it would've destroyed the souls, though--Death said, a human soul cannot be destroyed.--but would've destroyed Dean's human body, being so close to this new sun and all.

33 minutes ago, SueB said:

Billie said she raided the veil.  So these were the stuck souls.  Like Kevin or others who were legit ghosts due to unfinished business.  Now, I've personally theorized that Kevin was stuck because once you become self-aware in the veil, you need resolution to get un-stuck. Or, just as likely, the reapers got backed up and (using the statistics of 55M people die a year) they were still cleaning out the 20-30 million that had resolution but got stuck in S8 ... but maybe it's a slower process to get in through that ONE door.  IDK.

I think there's no going back if you escaped your reaper, you're stuck in the veil until your soul burns out. If your bound for Hell, I don't think you get a choice. Kevin's situation was different because, at the time he died, Heaven was closed up. I'm just guessing once Heaven opened back up, there was a big backlog and the reapers hadn't gotten around to Kevin yet.

[SueB]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought it wasn't that they were trying overload Amara with power--like Castiel and the souls from Purgatory--but the souls would create such a burst of light that would be deadly to Amara. Think of the soul bomb as being a sudden emergence of a new sun. I don't think it would've destroyed the souls, though--Death said, a human soul cannot be destroyed.--but would've destroyed Dean's human body, being so close to this new sun and all.

Burst of light - I accept this as my head canon. Boom!

[DittyDotDot]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

Burst of light - I accept this as my head canon. Boom!

Ah crap...I'm so disappointed in myself now. It just now occurred to me that this is a good illustration of how I felt about the finale... ;)

[7kstar]

Well, this would mean that the writers painstakingly consider all the stuff we do.  I highly doubt it.

I imagine it is more like, "how do we get ourselves out of this box we wrote ourselves into?"

"I know, what about a bomb?  I mean like the souls caused Cas to explode so shouldn't it do anything bad to Amara?"

"What about the souls, what happens to them?"

"We'll worry about that next year..."

[Wynne88]

Quote

If I were a betting woman, I'd say that Sam was not shot.  I'm hoping it was because Lady whoever was just firing a warning shot, and not because A) she's a mere woman and can't shoot straight, or B) Sam has some sort of super-powered bullet proofing.

Or C) At the instant she fired the gun, Sam was zapped off to join Dean and his Mom.  All we heard was the sound of a bullet or something metallic hitting the floor; I didn't hear anything that would make me think Sam was actually hit.

It occurs to me that God's visit would have been a great opportunity for the writers to tweak Castiel so that he could hang out with Sam and Dean without excuses constantly having to be made for why he isn't helping or involved.  All God had to say was "You've used a lot of questionable judgement, so your angelhood is revoked.  Enjoy being human."  The character is popular, but there's really no place for him in the story.

[catrox14]

39 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

"I know, what about a bomb?  I mean like the souls caused Cas to explode so shouldn't it do anything bad to Amara?"

 

I thought it was the Leviathans that came with the souls that killed Cas not the souls themselves. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Amara is God. Therefore Amara is infinite. She gained strength from eating souls and it didn't matter if that energy was human, demon or angel grace and she kept all those souls inside her so they could live forever.  She said it herself.

IThis isn't like a horse eating too many oats and dying. Even if Dean blew himself up, there was literally NO reason to think it would blow up Amara too. If anything she should have just gotten MORE powerful because she would have been all 'Join with me my children! We will be in bliss for eternity".

So how exactly was her being exposed to even more of the souls that she herself intended to keep inside forever actually going to hurt her

God wasn`t infinite either since he was close to dying. Which I think Amara accomplished by pumping some of her darkness into him which was toxic for his light, I guess? The same way an overabundance of light would have proved toxic to Amara`s darkness. I know their true forms swirled together in the end but I think that was more like an embrace not light or dark going where they don`t belong respectively.

I thought the "soul bomb" plan was one of the more logical constructs they used. It didn`t strain my credulity even a quarter as much as the entire episode of Red Meat. 

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I thought it was the Leviathans that came with the souls that killed Cas not the souls themselves. 

I always thought it was the souls that was destroying Cass's meatsuit, the Leviathans were just along for the ride. I always thought he exploded when the Leviathans came out of him more because all the souls had already weakened his body.  I don't know.

[MysteryGuest]

It was definitely the light from the soul bomb that was supposed to do Amara in.  She is the Darkness and too much light is deadly for her...or so Chuck assumed.  The souls were not going to be put inside her.  

5 hours ago, Wynne88 said:

Or C) At the instant she fired the gun, Sam was zapped off to join Dean and his Mom.  All we heard was the sound of a bullet or something metallic hitting the floor; I didn't hear anything that would make me think Sam was actually hit.

I like this idea.  Sam just disappearing would also explain the WTF expression on Lady Whatever's face.

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought the "soul bomb" plan was one of the more logical constructs they used. It didn`t strain my credulity even a quarter as much as the entire episode of Red Meat. 

I just watched Red Meat last night, and I have to say that all of Sam's grunting and groaning was a bit over the top for me.  That's pretty much all he did the entire episode.

[SueB]

I figured the sound was just the shell.  BUT we didn't hear a body drop.... so ... could go in many directions.  I think we have a "Moose down! Moose down!" situation. But with Dean distracted by his Mom, his Sammy (aka Spidey) sense won't twig.  Sam will be fine, but it'll be enough for her to tie him up.  But seriously, wearing those pumps?  Girlfriend is NOT going to carry that 6'4" guy UP THE STAIRS.  She'll need backup.

[Wynne88]

And they didn't know that Dean was (supposedly) dead, so they sent Lady Ladida after TWO extremely capable and large men wearing those pumps.  She must be one tough cookie.

[catrox14]

Heh. I'm still trying to figure out how Sam lived in Red Meat.

I still have issues with the whole idea of God dying in the first place. So since I have a problem with God being finite, then I'll have problems with Amara being finite. But that's a whole OTHER kettle of fish.

I understood the "light" was the weapon but the moment Dean asplodes himself, the souls would just leave his body and they aren't destroyed. So if Amara is only mortally wounded, she could just suck those souls into herself and heal.

So either way? Bad plan IMO

Edited June 5, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

I figured the sound was just the shell.  BUT we didn't hear a body drop.... so ... could go in many directions.  I think we have a "Moose down! Moose down!" situation. But with Dean distracted by his Mom, his Sammy (aka Spidey) sense won't twig.  Sam will be fine, but it'll be enough for her to tie him up.  But seriously, wearing those pumps?  Girlfriend is NOT going to carry that 6'4" guy UP THE STAIRS.  She'll need backup.

I got to thinking that maybe Sam still has that 'aura of protection' from God. Maybe the bullet just went POOF or fell to the ground before hitting Sam.

Now if that aura of protection is not in play, I did wonder about the Mark of Cain. In "real" lore, it's said that the Mark protected Cain from being harmed or if anyone tried to harm Cain it would unleash the Vengeance of God. 

Since Dean couldn't die without becoming a demon and he could self heal as a demon then I think the Mark had that "protection factor". Now with Sam having the Mark for 30 seconds....could that make him a bit more impervious to being killed IF the protection aura from God isn't really in play?

Which would kind of suck for Dean if he doesn't get that as a residual benefit from having the Mark.

Also, Rowena said the Mark was curse....so did God curse Sam for those 30 seconds?

Just a thought

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I understood the "light" was the weapon but the moment Dean asplodes himself, the souls would just leave his body and they aren't destroyed. So if Amara is only mortally wounded, she could just suck those souls into herself and heal.

In that case, God could have used all those souls to heal himself, too. The way I understood it if either one was hurt by the power of the other - too much light or too much darkness - only the respective other one could heal that damage. So if Amara had been wounded like God had been wounded, then only God could have fixed her. Which obviously he couldn`t because she had hurt him too badly herself before. That means, it would have been game over for both.

As for the demon blood powers, I really hope they don`t come back. OR, Chuck was kind enough to give Dean powers too. We have finally, finally achieved a little bit of balance, I don`t want it to go lopsided into Super-Sam again. The writers have a hard time writing Cas in longterm because he has powers and would make the main characters obsolete on a lot of occassions. If one of the main characters, who is always around, were to have powers again, guess who would become sidelined and useless by default? Do. not. want.  

Edited June 5, 2016 by Aeryn13

[mertensia]

God has always been finite in this universe- Death talked about reaping Him way back in season 5.

Think of the souls as being radioactive. Sure Amara could absorb some here or there but too many and boom! lethal radiation burns.

[catrox14]

11 hours ago, mertensia said:

God has always been finite in this universe- Death talked about reaping Him way back in season 5.

Think of the souls as being radioactive. Sure Amara could absorb some here or there but too many and boom! lethal radiation burns.

I figured at the time any reaping would be millenia from 2010. Also there was no implication  that Death reaping God would destroy humanity in the process. Nor would it be out of petty vengeance. Death is all about the Natural Order. So if Death was going to reap God then IMO he had a plan B in place.