Spoilers With Speculation

[DittyDotDot]

Or as I generally say: Heaven not good, but not as bad a Hell. ;)

[SueB]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, having all of this make sense in the SPN world is the main reason some of us didn't want them to go the God route in the first place.  But since they have, the onus is now on them to make this an ultimately satisfying part of the story, and not just piss everyone off.  I'll wait until I watch the next episode before judging too harshly, because sometimes those little snippet previews can be misleading.  I certainly don't want Dean hanging his head and unable to meet God's eyes because he's ashamed.  If anyone should be ashamed of their behavior, it's God.  He should have cleaned up his mess in heaven a long time ago.

I think the show is making it REALLY clear that it's God who needs to do some work here.  2/3rds of the last episode was Metatron, of all people, holding God accountable for his actions.  Saying things that Dean has been saying for years.  And it got through to God.

Put differently, if the show had God working on a cat blog and just for the hell-of-it decide to help this time... then THAT would be an indicator that the show is saying God's hiding was okay.  But that's not the route the show took.  Metatron called him out on a weaksauce autobiography that was all about his persona Chuck versus the real God. "The guy I worked for -- total badass. And yes, he could be a dick." Then figuring out that God had given up, Metatron takes God to task for being a coward.  For not sticking up for his best creation - humans.  And God listened.  He got back into the game.  And his first act was to stop Amara's destruction, save everyone, and go to Sam and Dean.  To me it's clear, the show's perspective on "right" and "wrong" hasn't changed.  It's treating God like a character in their universe and it's critically examining his actions. God is being held accountable to his creations. And EACH conversation is revealing, not only about God but about the characters who confront him.  There's going to be a lot of raw emotions that ONLY God can bring out because of his unique role in the SPN universe. 

I think it's bold, fascinating, and a logical step in the season.  But the show is NOT sanctioning God's actions.  OTOH, the show IS sanctioning humanity, caring for others, accountability, saving people and hunting things.  Seems pretty much like Supernatural 101 to me.

ETA: That doesn't mean that God won't score some 'points' on his own.  How many people were pissed last year where people seemed like routine collateral damage. Thankfully, this year, the boys have really worked to fix that.  But if God gives them shit for going down the wrong path for a while?  Well, he's not actually wrong IMO. They DO, IMO, deserve a little shade for some of their shady actions.  And getting that hassle, so long as that is not the ONLY thing God says to them, it okay by me.  And we've seen in that clip that God is going to say some nice things too.  So... I'm sure we'll hear things that some will be outraged by and others thrilled.  We've debated these things for YEARS.  God taking a position on whatever the topic does NOT automatically make that position correct... because it's clear GOD has some work to do on himself.  He has a unique perspective, however, and I do want to hear it -- even if I don't like some of it. Makes good TV for me.

 

ETA#2: Found this in the TVLine article https://tvline.com/2016/05/10/supernatural-spoilers-season-11-episode-21-chuck-god/:
 

Quote

So it's still that balance between Chuck and God. He's God when he needs to be God. But absolutely, there are a couple of scenes that are really personal scenes, and I've definitely got a lot of explaining to do to the two boys. So that's sort of what gets addressed.

Edited May 11, 2016 by SueB

[SueB]

Jensen reading a note from Peter Roth (Head of WB Television). http://ibelieveinthelittletreetopper.tumblr.com/post/144170053458/as-usual-jensen-is-the-source-for-the-biggest

The three things he lets "slip":

- Casper ass (I think this was a real spoiler)
- Save the earth (again, I suspect real)
- Benny (clearly disavowed)

Jensen is such a fan of the show. Reminds me of the "eyes" bit for S9.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

even though he also said that they "chose family, and isn't that what's important?"

And isn't that the epitome of hypocrisy from an entity that imprisoned his sister because she was mean to him?  And then abandoned his creation (his "children",  which one usually considers family) and refused to help stop the apocalypse?  Way to choose what's important there, guck.

[SueB]

I could be wrong, but I suspect reconciliation b/w Chuck and Amara might be part of the solution. Or not.  They are literally opposites.

[Omegamom]

Being and Nothingness.  Like matter and anti-matter.  I think the two of them "coming together" would be a Bad Thing.  ;-)

[SueB]

2 minutes ago, Omegamom said:

Being and Nothingness.  Like matter and anti-matter.  I think the two of them "coming together" would be a Bad Thing.  ;-)

Excellent point.  Your Star Trek serves you well.  I retract my theory.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Excellent point.  Your Star Trek serves you well.  I retract my theory.

Unless we are getting the a new Big Bang

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Unless we are getting the a new Big Bang

But where would that leave Season 12?  Would Sam and Dean regress then rapidly re-age? (Think the Genesis project)

Edited May 11, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
didn't need two ?s

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

But where would that leave Season 12?  Would Sam and Dean regress then rapidly re-age? (Think the Genesis project)

If they are dumped into the Empty then IMO they will be out of space and time and everything around them could change.  They would be the same age but thrown back in time or an alternate universe. Something like The End or In the Beginning.

Edited May 11, 2016 by catrox14
more thoughts

[RulerofallIsurvey]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If they are dumped into the Empty then IMO they will be out of space and time and everything around them could change.  They would be the same age but thrown back in time or an alternate universe. Something like The End or In the Beginning.

Y'all have a much better memory for individual episodes than I do.  :)   I always have to go look them up.

But surely (shurley?) they wouldn't spend all season in the Empty?  I could see a few eps with them trying to get out.  And by then the world would have reset?  Would that include angels and demons?  Could be an interesting concept.  Lots of possibilities.  That's why I don't think they'll really go there.  

[catrox14]

27 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Y'all have a much better memory for individual episodes than I do.  :)   I always have to go look them up.

But surely (shurley?) they wouldn't spend all season in the Empty?  I could see a few eps with them trying to get out.  And by then the world would have reset?  Would that include angels and demons?  Could be an interesting concept.  Lots of possibilities.  That's why I don't think they'll really go there.  

 

They wouldn't spend the season in the Empty. 

They get dumped there because they die trying to save the world, because Billie said that's where they would go. Maybe all of TFW gets sent there and Crowley lives because he's in Hell and he decides to get them out. However it goes down when they get out they are in a different time or place and the s12 is whether their life ends up in the same place or if they could change things. Destiny or no. Kind of like Song Remains the Same..

ETA: I mean it seems to me the show didn't introduce the idea of time anomalies and "pocket universes" like we had in Safe House without their being a payoff that someone ends up there or someone comes out of it to help. Chekhov's "pocket universe" so to speak.

Edited May 11, 2016 by catrox14
More wibbley wobbley timey wimey thinky thoughts

[Omegamom]

I just want to say I'm enjoying all the "reasons" for editing.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 hours ago, catrox14 said:

They wouldn't spend the season in the Empty. 

They get dumped there because they die trying to save the world, because Billie said that's where they would go. Maybe all of TFW gets sent there and Crowley lives because he's in Hell and he decides to get them out. However it goes down when they get out they are in a different time or place and the s12 is whether their life ends up in the same place or if they could change things. Destiny or no. Kind of like Song Remains the Same..

ETA: I mean it seems to me the show didn't introduce the idea of time anomalies and "pocket universes" like we had in Safe House without their being a payoff that someone ends up there or someone comes out of it to help. Chekhov's "pocket universe" so to speak.

The "pocket universes" and out of space and time thing could work for the Empty and who and what ever get sent there.  But, in addition to the earth, wouldn't Hell be destroyed in a collision of matter and anti-matter?  (So Crowley can kiss his ass goodbye, unless he also gets sent to the Empty.)  For that matter (heh) wouldn't Heaven also be destroyed?  Aren't they both (along with the earth and universe) part of guck's creation?  I don't think they existed before guck locked up Amara and went on his last creation spree.  The angels - archangels anyway - might survive, since at least Lucifer helped guck lock up big sis.  But I think Heaven and Hell came after.  

Nope, I take that back.  If matter and anti-matter completely cancel each other out, then nothing guck created, even before Amara was locked up, should survive.

[Aeryn13]

Since this is the episode Jensen spoiled as changing Dean`s reaction from how it was written - he was supposed to get angry, instead he gets emotional and finally cries (probably in that bark bench scene with God) - I do hope either God finds something nice to say to him or Dean still gets to legitimately call him out.

It would rankle if Metatron of all people gets the opportunity to chew God out and have it be played as valid (which it was) while in the next episode only Dean gets all the scorn and the passive-aggressive digs. And is just made to take it. 

I get that God is a huge narcissist who loves his ego being stroked so he talks softly to Sam because Sam is a believer which does the aforementioned ego-stroking for God. But that doesn`t mean I want Dean to be the one person in this equation who gets steamrolled. Now God is no longer contrite or only to Sam and Dean gets all his dickishness. That was exactly the thing I was worried would happen if they brought God in. I was already not enamored with the sneak peak for that reason. 

[Myrelle]

Quote

It would rankle if Metatron of all people gets the opportunity to chew God out and have it be played as valid (which it was) while in the next episode only Dean gets all the scorn and the passive-aggressive digs. And is just made to take it. 

After just watching that sneak peek, I am now officially dreading this all too redundant scenario  also. Not watching it live. No can do. Can't take the chance-not even with the assured Dean/Amara scenes that I've been waiting all season for. The promo monkeys completely killed my interest in watching live yet again. Boo! Hiss!!

[SueB]

46 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

After just watching that sneak peek, I am now officially dreading this all too redundant scenario  also. Not watching it live. No can do. Can't take the chance-not even with the assured Dean/Amara scenes that I've been waiting all season for. The promo monkeys completely killed my interest in watching live yet again. Boo! Hiss!!

Do what you feel you must, of course, but Rob Benedict indicates God has a lot to answer for and this is addressed. I think his 'Chuck va God' role, plus the way that preview went, says to me that God's role is variable depending on the individual. 

So here's a theory:

- For God, Sam is a kindred spirit because he's got a bit of little sibling vibe going (hence side-eyeing Dean a bit)

- For God, Dean is his best hope to get Amara in a box but Dean hasn't shown he trusts God in God's mind  

- For Sam, God is God  He COULD solve all the problems (in Sam's mind) if he just chooses to  And Sam believes God DOES care and is here to try. 

- For Dean, God is a deadbeat Dad who doesn't take care of his family. He thinks God can solve problems but doesn't care enough to try. Dean has been disappointed by God and trust is low.

The net result is that while God and Sam may be closer to being on the same page, God and Dean have an active conflict.  

Relevant info informing this opinion:

Having had a 5 min conversation directly with Jensen (sitting right next to me) on this very topic**, I have confidence Jensen's approach is going to be essential for making a realistic improvement in their relationship.  And it won't be Dean coming to see God's POV.  God has some changes to his viewpoint to make  

 

**No, I didn't share this before right after the conversation (on April 3rd) because I thought it was too big of a secret. Now that everyone appears to have been told his response to God, I'm sharing what I know-ish.  And I'm not surprised he's let a bit slip. He's REALLY excited about this episode. But fair warning, although the cast/crew/writers loved it, he thinks it's a gamble.  

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

The "pocket universes" and out of space and time thing could work for the Empty and who and what ever get sent there.  But, in addition to the earth, wouldn't Hell be destroyed in a collision of matter and anti-matter?  (So Crowley can kiss his ass goodbye, unless he also gets sent to the Empty.)  For that matter (heh) wouldn't Heaven also be destroyed?  Aren't they both (along with the earth and universe) part of guck's creation?  I don't think they existed before guck locked up Amara and went on his last creation spree.  The angels - archangels anyway - might survive, since at least Lucifer helped guck lock up big sis.  But I think Heaven and Hell came after.  

Nope, I take that back.  If matter and anti-matter completely cancel each other out, then nothing guck created, even before Amara was locked up, should survive.

I'm just using my lay person's knowledge and being a Fringe fan, to fit into the show's version of Bibilical lore and science fiction.

Thus far this season we've had Dean and Amara in the Darkness Vortex. We've had Safe House with souls being caught between universes aka pocket universes. God said he was in the safest place in the universe. So time and space distortions and safety are already on the table. Some speculated that the Impala is another safe place. And I have always said she has an FTL drive (faster than light for you non -BSG folks)  in her chassis which is why she can get Dean from Kansas to Massachusetts in 2 hours LOL. But I digress.

But really there is no evidence IN show that Heaven, Hell and Purgatory exist in the same universe as Earth. I'd even argue there is more evidence they are NOT in the same universe.

Remember the first time we ever saw Hell was Dean strung up in some weird plane that had nothing around it but yellow light. The only thing we heard was thunder and lightning or some kind of electrical sounds and it appeared there was nothing and no one else with Dean.

When Sam opened up a portal to Hell at the cemetery IMO that looked more like space than anything else.

Purgatory - Dean had to go through a portal to get out of Purgatory and it was uncertain whether an angel could survive going through that portal. Separate universe - special portal to get in and out. Unfortunately, Sam had to use a reaper to get back into Purgatory to get to Hell's back door, but maybe where he found Bobby was really Limbo  where Rowena summoned Lucifer. Dean went through Billie's door to Hell but that wasn't really Hell it was Limbo. 

Angels have to use a special portal to get in and out of Heaven now because they can't fly.

Ash tracked angels and heaven via math and science. So maybe he was tracking pocket universes and wormholes The computer at the bunker tracked the angels when they fell. How? Mysticism or math or both?

Oz is a separate universe.

If my theory that the Empty,  Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are actually separate universes then those universes and whatever is in them would survive since Chuck and Amara would be destroying only THIS universe, not ALL universes. Maybe Sam is better off in Hell with Lucifer and Crowley, Cas is better off back in Heaven and Dean is better off in the Empty or back in Purgatory with Benny (if Jensen really did spoil Benny).

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

*No, I didn't share this before right after the conversation (on April 3rd) because I thought it was too big of a secret. Now that everyone appears to have been told his response to God, I'm sharing what I know-ish.  And I'm not surprised he's let a bit slip. He's REALLY excited about this episode. But fair warning, although the cast/crew/writers loved it, he thinks it's a gamble

I love Jensen and I know Jensen loves Dean but sometimes he really dorks Dean's growth. Like he himself adlibs Dean back to being stupid. Why does he DO THAT? I'm not so sure not punching God is character growth for Dean in this case. Chod has it coming and if Dean isn't angry with Chod then I dunno.

I'm hoping that moment where the clip leaves off is followed by Dean reading Chod the riot act. I hope we see Dean really want to practically kill God but he doesn't and what we see is Dean being SO ANGRY that he actually cries. I mean god knows I cry when I'm the MOST angry and frustrated. I don't want Dean to show a moment of shame or regret for not trusting God and I don't want Dean to be shown doing the same thing as Metatron with the "Why did you leave us....wahhhh".

I am on board with Dean bringing up why God made him suffer in Hell for 40 years and why God didn't tell him what the Mark was going to do to him since it was Chod's lock and key in the first damn place.  I could see Dean crying over having lost all his agency over TWO bad choices with selling his soul for Sam and taking on the Mark of Cain.  I want Dean to press Chod about why he let his angels set up Dean and Sam to do his dirty work. I would also be on board with Dean questioning why Chod ruined Mary and John's life by letting his children screw with Mary and John.  I think that might upset him as much as anything.

I'm equal parts dreading and looking forward to it. Bah

[RulerofallIsurvey]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

If my theory that the Empty,  Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are actually separate universes then those universes and whatever is in them would survive since Chuck and Amara would be destroying only THIS universe, not ALL universes. Maybe Sam is better off in Hell with Lucifer and Crowley, Cas is better off back in Heaven and Dean is better off in the Empty or back in Purgatory with Benny (if Jensen really did spoil Benny).

Hm..I disagree.  Let me see if I can explain my theory better.  (I know exactly what I want to say when I walk away, but have trouble getting the words to come out right 'on paper'. grr...)  

IMO, the Empty predates guck and Amara.  Or at least coincides with them.  I don't think guck created The Empty.  It was Always There.  Kind of like guck himself.  

Now, Heaven and Hell and Purgatory (forgot about that) and earth/the Milky Way, etc...even if in separate universes (and yeah, I can buy that theory) were all constructed by guck.  And if guck is obliterated in a cosmic matter/anti-matter collision, then, one result of that could be as if he never even existed.  And if he never even existed, then all of his constructs/creations would never even have existed.  That includes Heaven, Hell and Purgatory.  

Earth is an easy to assume gets obliterated.  But Heaven and Hell and Purgatory?  Well, all the souls definitely should get obliterated.  Remember guck created souls.  He said it made him naseous.  That's the part of him in every human; ie The Divine Spark.  No guck, no Divine Spark.  What of the Angels?  Well, they don't have souls, but they have Grace.  And from whence does that Grace come?  guck, right?  No guck, No Grace.  No Grace, no Angels.  I'm sure there's some similar reasoning that would apply to everything in Hell and Purgatory not human or Angel - and since demons used to be either human or Angel it might even be the same reasoning.

Don't forget: Amara wants to destroy ALL of guck's creations.  Not just the earth and humanity.  Not just THIS universe.  ALL of them.  That includes Heaven and Hell and Purgatory, imo.

ETA: another result of a cosmic matter/anti-matter collision could be that guck and Amara are both obliterated but it really doesn't affect anything else and all the universes remain intact.  That'd be kind of boring, so I hope that's not what happens.

Edited May 11, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
that other pesky possibility...

[catrox14]

Quote

Don't forget: Amara wants to destroy ALL of guck's creations.  Not just the earth and humanity.  Not just THIS universe.  ALL of them.  That includes Heaven and Hell and Purgatory, imo.

 

That's only if you believe that Chuck and Amara exist at the same time and space in infinite universes. IMO Obliterating Chuck from one universe does not mean he's obliterated in another. I personally don't think the show will go that Deus ex Machina. They have to leave room for an out. An out is other universes to put humanity in to save or start over. 

Amara said she wants to eliminate his creation but not everything is Chuck's creation. Chuck created angels, humans and leviathans. Lucifer created demons. Eve created monsters.

So if Amara just wants to get rid of Chuck's creations that's really only humans, angels and leviathans which are trapped in Purgatory along with monsters and vampires. And she's really left Hell alone for the most part too. If she wanted to destroy Hell or make an example of Hell she would have done that but she's clearly not interested in that. IMO

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's only if you believe that Chuck and Amara exist at the same time and space in infinite universes. IMO Obliterating Chuck from one universe does not mean he's obliterated in another.

I believe that guck and Amara exist outside of time and space - and universes.  Much like The Empty.  That's why I think obliterating guck might obliterate Heaven, Hell and Everything In Between.  

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I believe that guck and Amara exist outside of time and space - and universes.  Much like The Empty.  That's why I think obliterating guck might obliterate Heaven, Hell and Everything In Between.  

 

Yes, I got that.

I'm not so sure that is the case. But if that is the case then there is no solution other than someone talking Amara down and gods that's fucking boring. My theory is working from them NOT being infinite in all places at all times in all universes. YMMV

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But if that is the case then there is no solution other than someone talking Amara down and gods that's fucking boring. 

Re the no other solution: Not necessarily.  Like I said, another possibility is that obliterating guck and Amara could result in nothing more than their obliteration and everything else remains intact.  

Re the talking Amara down being boring: why must a peaceful solution be boring?  War is preferable?

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Re the no other solution: Not necessarily.  Like I said, another possibility is that obliterating guck and Amara could result in nothing more than their obliteration and everything else remains intact.  

Re the talking Amara down being boring: why must a peaceful solution be boring?  War is preferable?

 

LOL  Did I say war is preferable? Don't think I did.

I just don't want the finale to be all BLAH BLAH BLAH  between Chuck and Amara.

This IS an action show and yes I would like some action at the end.

Edited May 11, 2016 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

LOL  Did I say war is preferable? Don't think I did.

This IS an action show and yes I would like some action at the end.

Isn't that implied by saying that talking down a destructive force is "fucking boring"?

ETA: caught your edit in between mine.  You mean like the last ep was all BLAH BLAH BLAH between Metatron and guck?  Still:

There can be action and a peaceful solution in the end.

Edited May 11, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
in the end

[catrox14]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Isn't that implied by saying that talking down a destructive force is "fucking boring"?

There can be action and a peaceful solution. 

That's what you inferred. There is a place between blah blah blah boring talky resolution and WAR BOMBS DEATH.

[KirkB]

Maybe Chuck will talk Amara down but realizes that as long as both of them exist the universe is stagnant (or in danger) and he tasks Dean and Sam, or maybe Castiel, to end them....somehow. If they destroy each other everything in creation goes with them but if they are sent together into the same nothingness which used to hold Amara everything stays as it was? I don't know. The only thing I can think of is they do destroy each other and creation but Sam and Dean are spared and the universe is rebuilt in THEIR imagine, which would still involve hunters and vampires and such because that's all they know yet perhaps no longer contains things like "those dick angels". Honestly, bringing in God and his sister, I'm struck trying to figure what the hell they can follow this season with. How is this NOT a series finale story line?

Edited May 11, 2016 by KirkB

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, KirkB said:

Maybe Chuck will talk Amara down but realizes that as long as both of them exist the universe is stagnant (or in danger) and he tasks Dean and Sam, or maybe Castiel, to end them....somehow. If they destroy each other everything in creation goes with them but if they are sent together into the same nothingness which used to hold Amara everything stays as it was? I don't know. The only thing I can think of is they do destroy each other and creation but Sam and Dean are spared and the universe is rebuilt in THEIR imagine, which would still involved hunters and vampires and such because that's all they know yet perhaps no longer contains things like "those dick angels". Honestly, bringing in God and his sister, I'm struck trying to figure what the hell they can follow this season with. How is this NOT a series finale story line?

 

If we didn't have a s12 I would totally agree but I'm thinking now they may not even resolve this. Or it's only a temporary solution.

The other thing is there is a new female being brought in. What will she have to do with all this? Will she be another sister of God? Death's Sister? LOL

I'm trying to hold out hope that this won't be one giant fustercluck but TBH...I don't. I'm actually preparing to be massively disappointed so that anything else is better.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's what you inferred. There is a place between blah blah blah boring talky resolution and WAR BOMBS DEATH.

I can't tell if you're being snarky and rude so I'll just ask.  Are you?  Cause I certainly haven't meant to upset or be rude with you.  (And since I was called out on another thread because someone thought I was being rude, when I didn't mean it, I figure I should just check to be sure)  I was enjoying the discussion, but it seems like there is some aggravation with me in your last couple of posts.  (Not surprising really.  I can be very aggravating!  Lol)  

And yeah - that's pretty much what I meant when I said there can be action and a peaceful solution.  

[Aeryn13]

If anyone is familiar with Babylon 5 and the resolution of its long-running storyline: the war between the Shadows (ancient super-beings who wanted chaos) and Vorlons (ancient super-beings who wanted order). The protagonists of the show basically talked them into backing down and leaving the galaxy. The entire arc was masterfully crafted over 4.5 years and even the episode where it happened wasn`t necessarily bad but it was still kinda anticlimatic. At least it did have a space battle in it. The best I can sum up the reaction would be "um". And it only happened like that because the showrunner condensed the story out of fear of not getting a year 5.

I do expect basically kind of a rip-off of that here with Amara and God. And I have about 500 % less faith in the writers here. Especially Dabb after this Season. And of course it is hard for me to envision what role they would give Dean in that. It could pretty much only be talking, a motivational speech etc. And this is just too close in its passivity to 5.22. I want more bang for the buck for the character. 

[Binns]

New preview!

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I can't tell if you're being snarky and rude so I'll just ask.  Are you?  Cause I certainly haven't meant to upset or be rude with you.  (And since I was called out on another thread because someone thought I was being rude, when I didn't mean it, I figure I should just check to be sure)  I was enjoying the discussion, but it seems like there is some aggravation with me in your last couple of posts.  (Not surprising really.  I can be very aggravating!  Lol)  

And yeah - that's pretty much what I meant when I said there can be action and a peaceful solution.  

I am not aggravated.

It seemed to me you came to a conclusion that I wanted WAR because I didn't want a boring talky solution. I couldn't really see how you got there from anything I said considering nothing else we talked about mentioned war at all. You were direct in saying I implied something that I don't think I did. I was being direct by saying I thought you inferred more than I implied.  I didn't think you were being rude and I don't think I was being rude. I have no issues with our discussion.

[catrox14]

I love that Dean thinks Chuck is a crappy roommate. LOL

Oh come on Buck Leming. Really Sam is going to ask why planets are round? He graduated high school, went to college and is a fucking Man of Letters. I'm pretty sure he had at least ONE class that explains why the planets are round. Ugh /head desk

Why is Sam acting like Dean shouldn't be trying to find Lucifer before it's too late? Does Sam have amnesia and is forgetting that Cas is still inside Lucifer? Unless it's after Sam saves Cas...and Lucifer has gone AWOL in another meatsuit.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I am not aggravated.

Good!

Quote

It seemed to me you came to a conclusion that I wanted WAR because I didn't want a boring talky solution. I couldn't really see how you got there from anything I said considering nothing else we talked about mentioned war at all.

Ah. well...seems to me IRL when dealing with a massive super power bent on world destruction, the only two options are usually boring talky solutions (Camp David Accords) or WAR.  I don't know of a lot of in between solutions.  I'm not sure there even could be.

Quote

You were direct in saying I implied something that I don't think I did. I was being direct by saying I thought you inferred more than I implied.  I didn't think you were being rude and I don't think I was being rude. I have no issues with our discussion.

To be fair, I ASKED if that was implied.  You could have simply said NO followed by an explanation.  By stating that was what I inferred (and I hadn't actually inferred anything if I was asking a question), I hope you can see how I might have thought that you were getting aggravated.  But I'm happy to hear you have no issues with our discussion!

18 minutes ago, Binns said:

New preview!

Yay Dean!  "I sleep".  LOL.  

[AwesomO4000]

15 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Oh come on Buck Leming. Really Sam is going to ask why planets are round? He graduated high school, went to college and is a fucking Man of Letters. I'm pretty sure he had at least ONE class that explains why the planets are round. Ugh /head desk

I know - of all the questions to want to ask? (What Sam, should the planets be square? Triangular? I mean maybe oval, but really?) Not that the ear question is any better, because that's even more basic. Were they afraid to have Sam actually ask something intelligent, thinking maybe we wouldn't understand? (Or maybe they didn't want to actually have to think of something.) So instead of being at least smart while being somewhat annoying, now here Sam's just annoying and daydreaming/goofing off while apparently Dean is doing all of the strategy thinking.

As for college, etc. Sam has been dumbed down quite a bit since the early days, in my opinion. This is just the latest example.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I know - of all the questions to want to ask? (What Sam, should the planets be square? Triangular? I mean maybe oval, but really?) Not that the ear question is any better, because that's even more basic. Were they afraid to have Sam actually ask something intelligent, thinking maybe we wouldn't understand? (Or maybe they didn't want to actually have to think of something.) So instead of being at least smart while being somewhat annoying, now here Sam's just annoying and daydreaming/goofing off while apparently Dean is doing all of the strategy thinking.

As for college, etc. Sam has been dumbed down quite a bit since the early days, in my opinion. This is just the latest example.

I don't get it. I am glad Dean is on the case but we know that Sam goes off to save Cas so...

No lie, that scene made so little sense to me I actually thought for a minute...why is Sam seeming to not care about finding Lucifer.

I swear to gods for a moment....I thought...wait, is this after they saved Cas? And could this be Lucifer cruising around in Sam after all and Samifer wants to know why the planets are round? And why is was all "What do you mean before it's too late". But I'm sure that's not it. 

[Binns]

In actually liked Sam's stuff there because it reminded me of his sort of naïveté? Maybe? About faith and angels and that kind of thing back in season 4. He's just so excited about God! Meanwhile, Dean is like...whatever, He sings too loud. It's just a little microcosm of their personalities. 

[Binns]

Disclaimer: I didn't watch the livestream so can't verify this...

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, Binns said:

In actually liked Sam's stuff there because it reminded me of his sort of naïveté? Maybe? About faith and angels and that kind of thing back in season 4. He's just so excited about God! Meanwhile, Dean is like...whatever, He sings too loud. It's just a little microcosm of their personalities. 

Sam being naive? Not since dick angels IMO. He's been through too much. I would rather he asked about unicorns or why god made clowns. LOL

Sam is too smart, educated to just be like OHHHH It's God. WHY ARE PLANETS.I can just forget any science that taught me this before! Blah. LOL Sorry that just really rankles.

6 minutes ago, Binns said:

Disclaimer: I didn't watch the livestream so can't verify this...

 

Wait...what???? I swear to Chuck. I'm annoyed that Chuck is God but if you were gonna do it, then do it. Retcon city in one week ?

So how can Chuck be a vessel and not be destroyed by God's power unless he was taken as a child like Amara. 

Edited May 11, 2016 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

Quote

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I know - of all the questions to want to ask? (What Sam, should the planets be square? Triangular? I mean maybe oval, but really?) Not that the ear question is any better, because that's even more basic. Were they afraid to have Sam actually ask something intelligent, thinking maybe we wouldn't understand? (Or maybe they didn't want to actually have to think of something.)

Yeah, agree that that's a pretty trivial/dumb question to be asking; If I were Sam, I'd be more inclined to go with "why did you allow me to suffer in the cage for over one hundred years?" or "Why is Heaven so crappy?"

On the question of why Sam seems unconcerned about saving Cas, though, I'm hoping it is because he -- unlike Dean -- thinks that now that God is around, there is no such thing as "too late." Even if God isn't so all-powerful that he can easily defeat Amara, he can presumably save Cas from Lucifer's control, or resurrect him if necessarily. Obviously, I think it will be more complicated than that, but Sam may not realize this. 

[catrox14]

Just now, companionenvy said:

Yeah, agree that that's a pretty trivial/dumb question to be asking; If I were Sam, I'd be more inclined to go with "why did you allow me to suffer in the cage for over one hundred years?" or "Why is Heaven so crappy?"

On the question of why Sam seems unconcerned about saving Cas, though, I'm hoping it is because he -- unlike Dean -- thinks that now that God is around, there is no such thing as "too late." Even if God isn't so all-powerful that he can easily defeat Amara, he can presumably save Cas from Lucifer's control, or resurrect him if necessarily. Obviously, I think it will be more complicated than that, but Sam may not realize this. 

I will say Sam is being naive if he thinks Chuck is there to help any one but himself. I don't think God cares about Cas either. Or at least not this time.

[MysteryGuest]

I get that Sam and Dean have been around supernatural beings all of their lives, but I would think they'd be a little more...something (I want to say awestruck, but that's not the right word) around God?  The joking banter doesn't really work for me.  These two men have had their lives torn apart, have watched everyone they love be killed, have spent time in actual hell, and heaven for that matter.  I'd think they'd have more serious things to discuss with God than what this latest clip implies.  Again, clips can be misleading, but that just seemed strange to me.  I mean we are talking about actual God here.  And a God who has fucked with their lives.  I don't think I'd be quite so cool about it.  

I was sort of ok with the whole God thing after last week's episode, but now I think I'm firmly back in the "why did they do this" camp.  I'm hoping I'm wrong because I really want to enjoy the end of this season, but I just don't see where they're going with this.

[Omegamom]

Well, it is the Horrible Duo we're talking about, here.  Though it would have been a cool joke to ask "Why are there tides?" or "If man descended from apes, why are there still monkeys?" or any other equally infamous stupid question.  On the other hand, that would make Sam even more...umf...

I think I get what Companionenvy was after.  Sam has a sense of awed wonder, still.  Maybe his thinking is, "God set up the whole universe to play by his rules, so why'd he make the rule that gravity makes planets round?  Does he just love spheres?"

(A total, totally irritated aside:  For some reason my autocorrect has gone nuts and is randomly turning plurals into :singular word: :So: or :singular word: :Sorry:.  What the actual heck, autocorrect?!?  You have something against plurals?  [And it did it RIGHT THERE, with "plural"!!!  And I had to erase the "Sorry"!  Sheesh!])

[call me ishmael]

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

If anyone is familiar with Babylon 5 and the resolution of its long-running storyline: the war between the Shadows (ancient super-beings who wanted chaos) and Vorlons (ancient super-beings who wanted order). The protagonists of the show basically talked them into backing down and leaving the galaxy. The entire arc was masterfully crafted over 4.5 years and even the episode where it happened wasn`t necessarily bad but it was still kinda anticlimatic. At least it did have a space battle in it. The best I can sum up the reaction would be "um". And it only happened like that because the showrunner condensed the story out of fear of not getting a year 5.

I do expect basically kind of a rip-off of that here with Amara and God. And I have about 500 % less faith in the writers here. Especially Dabb after this Season. And of course it is hard for me to envision what role they would give Dean in that. It could pretty much only be talking, a motivational speech etc. And this is just too close in its passivity to 5.22. I want more bang for the buck for the character. 

Yes, as i suggested in the episode thread i think this is their best bet.  I actually think it would work better than B5 because here it would allow a restart to all the free will and reponsibility questions.  So long as God was out there there is the possibility that he would simply fix things or that he had planned everything.  But once he leaves and all the other creatures are on their own they can't keep waiting on him.  I think Metatron convinced him he was responsible one last time to clean up the mess and then it is up to the natural world.  And that means Amara leaving too.

what i don't get is why people think that God and Amara together means giant explosion.  First, haven't they been together before? And being and nothingness aren't matter/antimatter.  They are philosophical concepts.  Neither can exist without the other; it isn't that they can't co-exist.

Edited May 12, 2016 by call me ishmael
I finally proofread

[SueB]

*enter nerd mode*

Technically, the earth is an oblate spheroid...

I'll show myself out now.

 

But seriously, I have no problem with Sam going into geek-out mode.  Even if the questions are clearly written by two writers who don't understand science. 

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

*enter nerd mode*

Technically, the earth is an oblate spheroid...

I'll show myself out now.

 

But seriously, I have no problem with Sam going into geek-out mode.  Even if the questions are clearly written by two writers who don't understand science. 

Sam can be in geek mode, but not stupid uneducated geek mode. Because he's not stupid nor uneducated.

[SueB]

Just now, catrox14 said:

Sam can be in geek mode, but not stupid uneducated geek mode. Because he's not stupid nor uneducated.

Totally agree. It's just that Nepotism Duo are stupid and not geeks. Jared probably should have fixed it (because I'm sure he knows). 

[Binns]

Yeah, I think it's just bad writing. Sam is so sweet in moments like this. 

[SueB]

We Happy Few promo:

 

 

Now two pics, one is the 'happy few' and the other is Rowena.  Here's my question -- squinty eyes or demon eyes?

 

ETA: IMO Chuck's 'Shock and Awe' are not going to work for two reasons 1) he's not going to win a slug fest with her and 2) it's not the season finale

Edited May 12, 2016 by SueB
important military tactics analysis