Spoilers With Speculation

[AwesomO4000]

Twice they had Sam say it was on him in 11.01, right after Sam finds Dean and in the quote above, but then in the very same breath Sam says "It's on us".  So what does Sam really think? What does Dean really think?

 

The lack of cohesion between the tell and the show leaves me puzzled because I just don't get what they are trying to communicate here.

 

I gave my interpretation of what I thought Sam was trying to say in my answer above. I'll repeat it here since that was a little bit TL:DR: "Sam's 'It is on us. We have to change.' from the quote catrox gave above, for me, was Sam referring to their attitude in general - like say that they both sacrifice the world to save each other (like when Dean sold his soul or got Gadreel involved and he also said the exact same thing - that he would do it again) and not really the Darkness in particular."

 

I think this, because just before Sam says "It's not on you. It is on us. We need to change." He said "And I'd do it again. In a second... " very reminiscent of Dean's insisting that he would replay the Gadreel scenario even though Kevin was killed. For me, there Sam was realizing and acknowledging that he, too, had let himself fall into the same trap that Dean had in season 9, even though back then, Sam had said that under the same circumstances he wouldn't have saved Dean, but now he had, and screwed up spectacularly by doing so. And right after he said "and I'd do it again," Sam said "And that is what I'm talking about." The that being that he would do it again... not the Darkness itself, but the general problem of them saving each other no matter what. That to me is what I think Sam was saying was on both of them and that they both had to change about themselves.

 

The darkness itself, Sam had acknowledged earlier was all him... however, when Dean said "And I told you not to" - which was true - Sam was saying that basically just because Dean said that this time, didn't mean that Dean - and now Sam, since he was including himself in this with the "I'd do it again" - hadn't done similar things in the past (and not just with Gadreel but also with killing Death - which could have been disastrous, they didn't know), and so they had to both stop this cycle now before things got even worse.

 

That was my interpretation anyway.

[Demented Daisy]

"He wasn't trying to save anyone by taking the Mark.  So how could it be heroic?"

He stated that he wanted it to kill Abaddon. I had actually forgotten that Cain wanted Abaddon dead also. Abaddon WAS stealing human souls in order to form an army so his stated intention can be seen as heroic because he WAS trying to stop her from doing that. Were those intentions also mixed up and in with feelings of regret, shame, guilt, anger at himself, etc.? Absolutely. Was he yet again throwing himself into his job in a reckless fashion to forget/make up for mistakes he'd made? Probably. Sure.  But IMO, he WAS indeed trying to save the lives and souls of those Abaddon would see made into her demon army. So yes, it could still be seen as heroic, IMO. But as with everything on this show, MV for every viewer. 

 

 

She was harvesting souls to build a demon army so she could rule Hell, Earth and Heaven. The few we saw was the first salvo.  That was the threat that Sam and Dean BOTH agreed needed to be dealt with.  As I recall, Sam said "Abaddon is an even bigger piece of crap than you" when he was talking to Crowley. Whether we saw it in action, the show said she was the immediate threat and told us her plan. So yes I think he did save humanity by killing her and it was heroic. 

 

I would accept that killing Abbadon was necessary if they hadn't already neutralized her once before.  The Mark was not required to overpower Abbadon, chop her into pieces, and bury her in a bunch of different spots.  Only to kill her.  

 

ETA  I do not believe that Dean taking the Mark was necessary.  I didn't believe it when it happened and I don't believe it now.

 

I'm not really sure what we are disagreeing about concerning Dean 

 

This:

 

It's generally only Sam's and Castiel's rash decisions that directly lead to apocalypse causing situations. Dean's rash decisions generally only affect Dean, end up bad only because someone else messes up, or end up having good results.

 

...is what I disagree with.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[AwesomO4000]

This: ...is what I disagree with.

 

Ah, got it. You said we disagree about Dean, so I was confused, because for me that is as much a Sam and Castiel issue as a Dean issue. Well actually more of a narrative issue on my part.

 

And I realize it's likely as much me as anything. I guess it's mostly that I've gotten tired of the narrative having Sam start apocalypses, especially when I can see it coming a mile away. At least Castiel's apocalypses were a surprise - to me anyway.

[catrox14]

Interview with Jared from the same people as the Jensen interview. I think they are Brazilian journalists.

 

[NoWillToResist]

I think that`s a bit simplistic to pin everything on Dean and absolve everyone else of their choices like bouncy-bouncy babies. It was still Sam`s choice to abort the trials. Dean didn`t physically or supernaturally stop him. And noone knows if closing the gates of hell meant demons already topside, like Abaddon, would be sucked back in. Or, if it worked like Heaven, seal Hell up and all demons come to Earth and/or no evil souls can go to Hell.

 

And Dean wasn`t supposed to get rid of the MOC - Death said he could share it with someone else but Death couldn`t remove it either. Instead Dean was supposed to get send into outer space or somewhere WITH the Mark. Death just had the ludicrous idea that for that to stick, Sam needed to die first. If Dean had killed Sam, the spell would still have gone on as planned, MOC removed and Darkness released. 

 

 

THIS. THIS is why I'm beating that horse about Dean not being responsible for the release of the Darkness.  It was going to happen regardless of Sam's death or not.  And regardless of Death's death..  It just really annoys me.

 

As to Dean and the first deal....well we can actually track it all the way back to

 

John makes a deal for Dean. If Dean is dead he doesn't make the deal for Sam.

 

And we have no show LOL

 

These fucking Winchesters...so ready to die/sacrifice to save each other. ;)  Guess we should really blame Mary? She should have let John die instead of making a deal with YED (I think I'm remembering that correctly). Then Dean and Sam would never have been born. ;)

 

Thanks for clarifying the MOC business. It was all a little cloudy to me.

 

To be clear, I'm not actually intending to lay blame at one character's feet or another, or prop one up to slam another. I'm not invested enough in the show to wade deeply into an argument about that. I am curious to find out how the show plans to resolve the Darkness issue. It would be nice if the boys could work together to solve it, rather than one shouldering the burden and the other either resisting it or sitting by with a sad face...

Edited February 17, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

 

These fucking Winchesters...so ready to die/sacrifice to save each other. ;)  Guess we should really blame Mary? She should have let John die instead of making a deal with YED (I think I'm remembering that correctly). Then Dean and Sam would never have been born. ;)

 

True enough but everything was already fated to happen the way it did according to Michael in The Song Remains the Same. 

[Demented Daisy]

Sneak peek from The Vessel

 

 

https://amp.twimg.com/v/ed268b37-e9ea-4ed5-96c6-fb0e589bb331

 

Eh, I'm calling shenanigans on this one.  No way Dean doesn't say, "Yeah, I saw Raiders."  ;-)

[catrox14]

Ha! RIGHT?

[MysteryGuest]

I guess I don't really get worked up over who started which world-ending crisis.  One or the other of them does it every season.  They've both made monumentally bad decisions, sometimes just to save the other, and sometimes to save the world.  They've always thought they were doing the right thing, or that they didn't have any other choice, so I can't fault them too much.  I like the fact that they save each other...without that brother relationship, there is no show.  But every decision always seems to lead to something bad, even when it's good.  

 

As for God, I just don't see how having him show up is a good thing for the show.  Where do you go from there?  That just makes me think the show is ending this year, which doesn't make me particularly happy.

[SueB]

Quick commentary (having computer issues so quoting is problematic right now... apologies):

1) I think the Winchesters changing their M.O. is a major theme of the season and they've done plenty of "show" AND "tell" regarding "saving people, hunting things".

2) Show narrative pretty clear regarding plenty of blame to go around so let's just move on.  I don't give a rat's ass what subgroups of fandom think.  I don't visit sites/follow tweets/follow tumblrs/follow blogs that are all about one brother over the other. That's not the show I see.

 

Moving back towards spoiler territory:

- Is Amara evil? Well she's the opposite of God ("I am the Dark"). She's demonstrated her very nature is different. She's also been clear there is she, her brother, and then "creations".  And the last is expendable.  So... like Aesop Fable regarding The Scorpion and the Frog, she may not destroy humanity because she's evil but simply because it's her nature.

- Subsequently, who is going to take out Amara IMO has got to be someone who's nature is opposed to hers. If God cannot do it personally, then this odd bond with Dean seems far more likely to be the mechanism.  I think we'll get a Wizard of Oz like ending - where it was always possible if Dorothy just willed it. I expect Dean's Free Will to be central to the resolution.  But I also think Sam AND Dean will have to demonstrate a willingness to lose each other.  They've set that theme up this year.  Big Time. 

- IMO God showing up and just poofing Amara out of existence has already been ruled out by how she was put away last time. Plus Lucifer acknowledged she was God's equal in power. His advantage was Master Strategist.  I suspect EP20 will reveal his Master Strategy.  And it's going to be a complicated, long shot kind of a deal that relies on the brothers willing to at a minimum seriously risk dying for humanity. But God's not likely to hand them a power tool (pun intended) that makes it all just fine.  Dean's bond with Amara is the Ruby Red Slippers.  I'm calling it now. 

[catrox14]

So, I'm wondering something.

 

Since Dean learned that the sigil on Delphine was tied to her blood and soul and she had to essentially kill herself and everyone via the hand of God I see that parallel with Dean and Amara. So theoretically he should be able to kill her, like stab her right in the Mark on her chest.   Since he is still affected by her because of the Mark apparently, then maybe if he just touches the First Blade that would activate some latent Mark stuff and give him the power to kill her.

 

I just really need for Dean to kill her himself. I won't be satisfied if her death is from Sam or Cas or God.  Dean deserves to have that kill given all that she has done to him.

[SueB]

Sam only said "no" in the mid-Season Finale and Cas housed Lucifer to get Lucifer out and have Cas be his interims-vessel. The endgame is for Sam to say "yes" in the Finale. Only, this time, once again, it will be a good thing. For he will defeat Amara and then Lucifer by sheer willpower again.

 

Based on your comments in The Vessel thread, does this mean you no longer believe Sam will say yes to Lucifer? 

[Aeryn13]

 

Based on your comments in The Vessel thread, does this mean you no longer believe Sam will say yes to Lucifer?

 

I`ve considerably downgraded the likelyhood of that happening - it`s not completely out of question yet but less likely than I thought. However, I can not in good conscience upgrade the likelyhood of Dean playing an active, vital part just yet. The show kicked me in the face so many times in that regard, I believe that Dean has a great role after I`ve seen it happen. IF I see it happen. 

[SueB]

I think it will happen but I think the Show's definition of 'great' has not met your definition many times. So even if others love the role Dean plays and find it heroic, that may not meet your expectations. I'm not saying that's wrong, I'm saying that I get your caution.

[Demented Daisy]

I think the combination of Sam's "I got this" and Dean's "I'm the least valuable player" cements that Dean will be the key (pardon the pun) to locking away the Darkness again.  Like Dean being a last second "servant of heaven" in 99 Problems.

 

It looks like a misdirect.  Of course, they could do a misdirect of a misdirect.

[DittyDotDot]

Or a misdirect of a misdirect of a misdirect... ;)

[Myrelle]

I'm now wondering if Sam might not come to the conclusion that Cas will have to be sacrificed to continuing on as Lucifer's vessel in order to defeat Amara; as will Cas, himself, I'm sure. But Dean won't agree to that and will look for a way to somehow save Cas and free him of Lucifer's possession whether Cas wills it or not. This could mean going to Amara, herself, for help-which would put Dean right in the thick of things. And FWIW, it was strongly alluded to in this week's episode that Lucifer, on his own, is not the answer to defeating the Darkness and that he knows that. But the bigger problem that Lucifer poses, and that no one seems to understand(except possibly Dean who has steadfastly believed that Lucifer should have stayed in the cage) is that allying with Lucifer was never really the answer because of the havoc he will proceed to wreak if and when he defeats Amara/The Darkness. No, IMO, freeing Lucifer was just yet another mistake made in the hopes of fixing a previous mistake; just another evil must be employed to fight evil plan that has never turned out well for them OR for humanity, for that matter. Becoming the monster in order to fight the monster has not proven to be a sound game plan for them-and that is exactly what they will be doing again if they ally themselves with Lucifer. I actually hope that Dean will fight both Sam and Cas on this, if this IS how it shakes out because this is the same mistake that they have all made at some point in the series already, and IMO, THAT'S what kept them on the hamster wheel of neverending world-ending threats much moreso than their inability to let go of or sacrifice each other. So things have to change in that regard, also, IMO.

Edited February 19, 2016 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

 

And FWIW, it was strongly alluded to in this week's episode that Lucifer, on his own, is not the answer to defeating the Darkness and that he knows that.

...

But the bigger problem that Lucifer poses, and that no one seems to understand(except possibly Dean who has steadfastly believed that Lucifer should have stayed in the cage) is that allying with Lucifer was never really the answer because of the havoc he will proceed to wreak

Cas` decision was so hard to comprehend for me on a tactical level because IMO the biggest problem with Lucifer is your first point.

  

Undeniably, if he could defeat Amara, they`d just be trading one powerful enemy for another. Usually, in a situation like this, allying with "enemy of my enemy" is painted as a valid stratetic move because the current enemy poses the immediate threat while the other enemy can "wait their turn", i.e. the trade still has value, despite all the risks.

 

But they haven`t played Amara as such a threat. And they simply can never do that for their Big Bads, just for their format fix of arc and standalones. As long as they keep that up, noone and nothing they bring in will be such a threat. If they can take side cases, there is also always time for other options.

 

What`s worse, though, is that no trade has value here because Lucifer isn`t a big enough gun. Amara is at God`s level. Even if Cas` doesn`t know exactly how the Darkness was banished the first time, he must know that one lone archangel can`t hack it. So why did he believe Lucifer?

 

In that vein, it`s of no consequence for me how bad a threat Lucifer would pose instead of Amara. He doesn`t pose a real threat to her but he does to the Winchesters since THAT power level is still quite imbalanced. So all freeing him accomplished is opening up a second battle front. I have no problems with shady alliances but at the very least make them with people who are actually worth it in terms of firepower for what you want to accomplish. .      

[Demented Daisy]

Obviously, Castiel didn't learn his lesson when he allied himself with Crowley during season 6.

[Myrelle]

"So all freeing him accomplished is opening up a second battle front. I have no problems with shady alliances but at the very least make them with people who are actually worth it in terms of firepower for what you want to accomplish."

This. Exactly.

And it doesn't appear that Lucifer is interested in redemption or that the writers plan was ever to redeem him. So that leaves Amara and Dean's connection with her as the still unknown qualifier in this storyline-the wild card, if you will. And the producers and writers, themselves, have been loathe to call her unadulterated evil, and of the type/degree that Lucifer still clearly is, IMO.

[catrox14]

Promo pics from 11.15

 

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/02/19/supernatural-photos-1115-s11e15-beyond-the-mat/

[NoWillToResist]

I'm now wondering if Sam might not come to the conclusion that Cas will have to be sacrificed to continuing on as Lucifer's vessel in order to defeat Amara; as will Cas, himself, I'm sure. But Dean won't agree to that and will look for a way to somehow save Cas and free him of Lucifer's possession whether Cas wills it or not. This could mean going to Amara, herself, for help-which would put Dean right in the thick of things. And FWIW, it was strongly alluded to in this week's episode that Lucifer, on his own, is not the answer to defeating the Darkness and that he knows that.

 

 

What`s worse, though, is that no trade has value here because Lucifer isn`t a big enough gun. Amara is at God`s level. Even if Cas` doesn`t know exactly how the Darkness was banished the first time, he must know that one lone archangel can`t hack it. So why did he believe Lucifer?

   

 

Is Michael still around anywhere? IIRC, we know that God and some archangels were needed to defeat Amara, so, while Lucifer by himself isn't enough, at least Cas has snagged them one piece of the antidote (theoretically). Cas is allegedly able to eject Lucifer, but can Cas stop Lucifer from leaving? If Lucifer defeats Amara somehow, rather than letting Lucifer go, I could totally see Cas putting an angel blade though his own chest to save humanity from the devil.

 

Otherwise perhaps this is all just building to Michael's return. Or is he dead? I can't recall. If Michael is still around somewhere, then I can see this all being foreplay to bring Michael back into the mix. The boys' growth is supposed to now allow them to let the other die, but no promises were made about Cas. ;)  Totally wouldn't be surprised to see Dean let Michael possess him if there's a chance that Lucifer can be defeated and Cas can be saved...

 

What I'm most interested in is that Lucifer must have thought that he/Hell would have had some powerful weapons to fight Amara; he asked his minions to bring up their armory and was clearly unimpressed with it. He salivated at the thought of the HOG though. Perhaps before Lucifer was neutralized, he had a bunch of massive weapons which would have been enough, but since they're in the wind, he's a little fucked?

[Demented Daisy]

According to Lucifer, Michael is still in the cage, playing with himself.  *sigh*

[AwesomO4000]

I don't believe that for a moment. I'm pretty sure that angels are "junkless" (TM Dean) in their true form, and it's unlikely that Michael would stay inside Adam once inside the cage just as Lucifer didn't stay inside Sam - which is why Castiel was able to bring Sam's body back all by itself.

 

Lucifer is an asshat. He's probably pissed that Michael likely beats the crap out of him whenever Lucifer tries to get cocky.

Edited February 19, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

You know what I find interesting is that s11 Lucifer has really been much more like Hallucifer more than s5 Lucifer.  Misha said he talked with Pellegrino on how to play it and then watched Pellegrino's prior work as Lucifer so why go with Hallucifer vs s5!Lucifer?  Even the Nickifer we saw in the cage was more like Hallucifer than s5 Lucifer.  It's a long arc to not be storyteller approved or intentional..so now I ask why?

 

What do you guys think?

[catrox14]

BTS pic from a crew member

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BB-78jwxQ7U/

[DittyDotDot]

You know what I find interesting is that s11 Lucifer has really been much more like Hallucifer more than s5 Lucifer.  Misha said he talked with Pellegrino on how to play it and then watched Pellegrino's prior work as Lucifer so why go with Hallucifer vs s5!Lucifer?  Even the Nickifer we saw in the cage was more like Hallucifer than s5 Lucifer.  It's a long arc to not be storyteller approved or intentional..so now I ask why?

 

What do you guys think?

 

Sam's hallucination Lucifer in S7 was based off what Sam would know of Lucifer, just mashed up with his own subconscious a bit. I can imagine the Lucifer Sam saw in his head might be closer to actual Lucifer once he gave up the pretenses and stopped trying to court Sam. 

 

I don't know.

[Aeryn13]

At this point I don`t want Michael back because since they seem to nix Sam vesseling Lucifer now, if Michael came on, chances are high, he would go to Sam instead. Which would add even more insult to injury than Sam vesseling Lucifer yet again.

 

Basically, I want to eliminate as many risks as possible of Dean getting screwed over in the narrative once more. That includes no Michael and no God right now. 

[catrox14]

Sam's hallucination Lucifer in S7 was based off what Sam would know of Lucifer, just mashed up with his own subconscious a bit. I can imagine the Lucifer Sam saw in his head might be closer to actual Lucifer once he gave up the pretenses and stopped trying to court Sam. 

 

I don't know.

 

 

I understood (if not liked) having Sam see the Hallucifer version at the not!Cage, but Hallucifer never really influenced Sam to do anything other than maybe off himself, because Sam knew he wasn't real( I think). So Hallucifer tormented him for the fuck of it but there was not threat of the Apocalypse anymore.

 

s5 Lucifer is the one that actually went into the Cage with Sam. The one that COULD influence him to do things. That really threatened him.   I guess I'm more asking why the show would make the choice to continue with Hallucifer via Cas than s5!Lucifer who was truly frightening for Sam.  And s5 Lucifer was the only one that Dean ever met....

 

 

I dunno it's just got me thinking...which is always dangerous.

[Demented Daisy]

I don't believe that for a moment. I'm pretty sure that angels are "junkless" (TM Dean) in their true form, and it's unlikely that Michael would stay inside Adam once inside the cage just as Lucifer didn't stay inside Sam - which is why Castiel was able to bring Sam's body back all by itself.

 

Lucifer is an asshat. He's probably pissed that Michael likely beats the crap out of him whenever Lucifer tries to get cocky.

 

Which is why I sighed.  The idea is ludicrous, but I don't know if we're supposed to believe it or not.

[MysteryGuest]

I'm really not interested in seeing Michael back, and I'll be happy when Lucifer's back in the cage.  I hope that happens sooner rather than later.  The boys are going to have to align themselves with Crowley again, I think, in order to get rid of Lucifer.  Who knows, maybe they'll bring Rowena back to cast one more spell, and put him back where he belongs. 

 

As for Amara, who knows what's going on there.  They really haven't done anything with her character.  Are we to assume she's gone underground, or is she still running around sucking up souls?  If she is doing that, you'd think the boys would be able to track her somehow.  Based on past storylines, having a bunch of people running around with no souls is something that used to be on their radar.  So if she's not eating, what is she doing?

[SueB]

Hanging out on other planets?

[AwesomO4000]

I understood (if not liked) having Sam see the Hallucifer version at the not!Cage, but Hallucifer never really influenced Sam to do anything other than maybe off himself, because Sam knew he wasn't real( I think). So Hallucifer tormented him for the fuck of it but there was not threat of the Apocalypse anymore.

 

s5 Lucifer is the one that actually went into the Cage with Sam. The one that COULD influence him to do things. That really threatened him.   I guess I'm more asking why the show would make the choice to continue with Hallucifer via Cas than s5!Lucifer who was truly frightening for Sam.  And s5 Lucifer was the only one that Dean ever met....

 

I don't know if Sam would find season 5 Lucifer more frightening than the Hallucifer version or not. I tend to agree with DittyDotDot that Hallucifer was likely based on what Sam remembered from being in the cage and Sam definitely seemed to be afraid of his hallucinations before he figured out that they weren't real. Even though Hallucination Lucifer didn't really do much to Sam, he might've been based off of cage Lucifer, who obviously did do horrific things to Sam. Season 5 Lucifer was frightening as a threat, but cage Lucifer actually did horrendous things to Sam, and if he sometimes had Sam see the Nick version when he did those things - my guess based on Sam's hallucinations - Lucifer keeping that look and attitude to me makes sense.

 

For me the most telling thing was "light" Lucifer when Sam first ended up in the mini cage. The "I don't want to hurt you, Sam" Lucifer who easily turned into "exquisite pain" Lucifer when things didn't go exactly this way. I'm thinking maybe that for Sam, part of the hell of being in the cage was the never knowing exactly when it was going to end up in pain and blood and psychological torment, but knowing that at some point in the very near future it was.

 

It might be just my personal opinion, but I actually found Hallucifer quite horrifying, especially in the way he light-heartedly talked about the past physical torture, psychological torture, and rape he perpetrated on Sam almost as if it was nothing but a walk in the park on his end. And that was likely an insight into how he operated there in the cage as well. The Lucifer here I think is what we have now. There is no reason for him to be in the wooing stage (which I think DittyDotDot also said) anymore. He doesn't have to pretend to be sincere with Sam anymore or threaten him. He's been there, tortured that, and isn't in any way considering Sam as anything but an annoying cockroach at this point... in other words, he doesn't have to be season 5 Lucifer any more, so he just doesn't bother.

 

Which is why I sighed.  The idea is ludicrous, but I don't know if we're supposed to believe it or not.

 

I sure hope we're not supposed to, because ugh.

[NoWillToResist]

As for Amara, who knows what's going on there.  They really haven't done anything with her character.  Are we to assume she's gone underground, or is she still running around sucking up souls?  If she is doing that, you'd think the boys would be able to track her somehow.  Based on past storylines, having a bunch of people running around with no souls is something that used to be on their radar.  So if she's not eating, what is she doing?

 

I know what she's NOT doing: aging

 

She flew through her age groups (baby, toddler, pre-teen, teen) yet remarkably, she hits love interest age and the aging has stopped. I'm sure some character could pull some explanation out of their asses and I'm not particularly fussed about what explanation is chosen...I just want there to be some ACKNOWLEDGEMENT (or questioning) of her non-aging in the show.

Edited February 20, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[MysteryGuest]

The entire Amara plot leaves nothing but questions.  Yes, why has she stopped aging?  Better yet, why did she de-age (I know, not a word) in the first place?  It makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.  Are we to assume that she's feeling the same pull toward Dean that he feels toward her?  And if so, why isn't she seeking him out?

[auntvi]

Who knows, maybe they'll bring Rowena back to cast one more spell, and put him back where he belongs.

 

 

It would be interesting if she came back as a ghost with her neck still broken, like one of the creatures in Beetlejuice. 

[Omegamom]

Why is she not aging? She's on a fashionable, no-soul or low-soul diet, endorsed by God-level beings in all the multi-verses. A girl needs to watch her figure, y'know! ;-)

Edited February 20, 2016 by Omegamom

[SueB]

The entire Amara plot leaves nothing but questions.  Yes, why has she stopped aging?  Better yet, why did she de-age (I know, not a word) in the first place?  It makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.  Are we to assume that she's feeling the same pull toward Dean that he feels toward her?  And if so, why isn't she seeking him out?

 

Stopped Aging:  Pretty common sci-fi trope, age to adulthood and then not.  Although when Dean asked if this was her "form", she DID reply "for now"

De-Age: She didn't.  She became corporeal by being "born" in a new life form.  Seems like the laws of the supernatural require you to become corporeal in order to have sustained interactions with humans. 

Same pull towards Dean: pretty sure the answer is "yes".  She mentioned it as a teen that she was fascinated. She seems confused by her own need to talk to him. She uses words like "destiny" which implies out of her control.

Not seeking out: When last we left her she was stumbling.  I'm presuming she's off tending to her wounds somewhere.  Maybe she popped over to a different continent where she felt people going soulless would receive less press?  The obvious answer is they want some non-Amara episodes, but I think she's either building strength or recovering from whatever caused her to falter.

 

Lynn from Fangasm had a M&G report: https://fangasmthebook.wordpress.com/2016/02/20/houscon-jared-and-jensen-meet-and-greet-tidbits/

 

One Dean/Amara tidbit:

 

Fan: I don’t understand what’s going on with Dean and Amara – I’m so confused!

Jensen: Me too!

He went on to say that the writers were at first going down a path of attraction and desire, but that didn’t make sense to him – it made more sense that Dean would be confused.

Jensen: It’s something he’s unable to put a name to. In a scene coming up, I play it like he’s in shock and awe, like he’s powerless. The script said desire, but luckily it was Phil and he agreed with me – it’s not something you can put a word on like that, it’s not lust or desire.

Everyone in the room: Thank you!So

 

So naturally this caused me to figure out who is filming what episodes and when.  Data I was able to gather from using my Twitter-fu:

 

EP 15 - "Beyond the Mat" - Jerry Wanek - wrestler ep - airs on 24 Feb - Filming started 5 Jan

EP 16 - "Safe House" - Stefan Pleszczynski- Berens/Dabb ep - airs 24 Mar (big gap!) - filming started 14 Jan

EP 17 - "TBA" - Phil Sgriccia - THIS MUST HAVE AMARA IN IT (based on Jensen's comment) - airs 30 Mar - filming started 5 Feb (filmed AFTER EP 18) also note, this coincides with when 'lonely Jensen' was trolling us from a set hospital bed while Jared was drinking in Austin

EP 18 - "Red Meat " - Nina Lopez-Cervado -  - This has the Bobby/Rufus storyline - airs tbd - filming started Jan 26th  (filmed BEFORE EP 17)

EP 19 - "TBA" - Eduardo Sanchez (Blair Witch director) - airs tbd - filming started Feb 18th (filming now, obviously)

EP 20 - "TBA" - unknown - this is the one with Rob Benedict (aka Chuck and/or God depending on your POV) - likely to start filming ~1 Mar

 

Which makes

MOTW likely: 15, 16, 18, 19

Mytharc likely: 17, 20

 

Just a guess.

Primary data sources on twitter (Jim Michaels, filming dates & directors), Jensen (pic in hospital bed), Jim Beaver for when he was filming,

other sources: Spoiler tv for a couple of the titles, and random articles about Bobby/Rufus and Rob Benedict

[catrox14]

 

Fan: I don’t understand what’s going on with Dean and Amara – I’m so confused!

Jensen: Me too!

He went on to say that the writers were at first going down a path of attraction and desire, but that didn’t make sense to him – it made more sense that Dean would be confused.

Jensen: It’s something he’s unable to put a name to. In a scene coming up, I play it like he’s in shock and awe, like he’s powerless. The script said desire, but luckily it was Phil and he agreed with me – it’s not something you can put a word on like that, it’s not lust or desire.

Everyone in the room: Thank you!So

 

So, is this hinting that there will be more sexualized behavior that Amara exhibits towards/subjects Dean to without his consent? Cause that's what it sounds like to me.  sure as fuck hope not.

 

Also,

He went on to say that the writers were at first going down a path of attraction and desire

 

Fuck the writers for this whole idea.^^^^^^, 

Edited February 20, 2016 by catrox14

[SueB]

I'm thinking yes... but Phil & Jensen clearly don't play it as 'sexy times'.  EP 17 is my guess.

[catrox14]

 

I'm thinking yes... but Phil & Jensen clearly don't play it as 'sexy times'.  EP 17 is my guess.

 

So, more sexual assault on Dean . Awesome....:(

Edited February 20, 2016 by catrox14

[MysteryGuest]

I don't have an issue with whatever the pull is between Dean and Amara.  Neither one of them seems to be able to control it, so I never got an "ick" factor from it.  She's shown to be as confused about the attraction as he is.  Yes, ultimately she has more power than he does, but she's hardly tried to overpower him in that regard.  And the fact that she was a baby/child for a nanosecond doesn't bother me either, because that was just stupid.  I just think it's silly because there's been no real explanation for what their link is, other than the Mark.  But sharing the Mark didn't make Dean and Cain crave each other's company, so why this powerful draw between Amara and Dean?  The writers are going to have to work hard to come up with some plausible reason for the connection to make this storyline not be a complete bust for me.

[DittyDotDot]

SueB, I wonder if the episode Jensen was referring to was the Valentine's Day one? That was also directed by Phil and the words lust and desire were specifically used in that episode with regards to Dean's feelings for Amara. There could be another one coming up, but I'm thinking it's hard for Jensen (and Jared) to keep straight what's "coming up" given their schedule. Many times they ask what episode we're up to at these things.

[SueB]

SueB, I wonder if the episode Jensen was referring to was the Valentine's Day one? That was also directed by Phil and the words lust and desire were specifically used in that episode with regards to Dean's feelings for Amara. There could be another one coming up, but I'm thinking it's hard for Jensen (and Jared) to keep straight what's "coming up" given their schedule. Many times they ask what episode we're up to at these things.

Good catch. But Jensen said "in a scene coming up", and had already answered several questions about Love Hurts.  So... I'm thinking it's the EP17 (Which Phil is directing).  But we'll see.

 

I don't have an issue with whatever the pull is between Dean and Amara.  Neither one of them seems to be able to control it, so I never got an "ick" factor from it.  She's shown to be as confused about the attraction as he is.  Yes, ultimately she has more power than he does, but she's hardly tried to overpower him in that regard.  And the fact that she was a baby/child for a nanosecond doesn't bother me either, because that was just stupid.  I just think it's silly because there's been no real explanation for what their link is, other than the Mark.  But sharing the Mark didn't make Dean and Cain crave each other's company, so why this powerful draw between Amara and Dean?  The writers are going to have to work hard to come up with some plausible reason for the connection to make this storyline not be a complete bust for me.

I agree about not suffering the "ick" factor.  Because I see Amara as less "evil" and more "not of THIS natural order".  And I also see she is confused about it.  The look she and Dean shared when she poofed him to safety was very important IMO.  I'm also glad Jensen is avoiding the "lust" angle.  I could see "desire" being thought of in a way OTHER than sex. 

 

As I've said before, I think the bond comes from God himself.  Like the black fart cloud, I think it was part of the Lock & Key failsaife. And not imbued with a 'must have' sexual natural either.  I think it was just a raw connection and Amara has made the mental leap to physical connection (i.e. sex). Perhaps because she sees that as how humans create (she seems somewhat focused on the concept of what God has "created").  In other words, Amara is trying to make sense of the connection (the "destiny") as she goes along.  She finds many things confusing about our world. 

 

And I realize most folks don't think they do much planning.  When Carver acknowledged he didn't plan on making Dean a demon when he first took on the Mark of Cain, I was stunned.  I knew IMMEDIATELY this was bad juju and the idea of him becoming a demon was like "the third thing you say" (gratuitous SPN quote).  But I think this seasons' mytharc is NOT Carver, it's Dabb.  He's got co-writer credits on three scripts (at least) this season (past and future).  All with some likely mytharc angle. And he was the one on the S8 DVD special about the Men of Letters who went into details about Dean finding the "Spear of Destiny" in the bunker.  In fact, I wonder if the "Hand of God" was a replacement McGuffin for Spear of Destiny.  I'm still waiting for Chekov's Spear to show up again.  In any case, I think the Hand of God WILL show up and I think we've been seeing a variant of the "Hand" (God working behind the scenes) in subtle clues all season.  That's why I believe when God shows up in EP20 (which yes, I think God is wearing a Chuck face now but not always), he's not going to come in with some raw power.  He's going to reveal his strategy and the role Team Will can CHOOSE to play in getting a resolution to the Amara story.  And it'll all be about choice.  Because that's God's riff -- the whole Free Will schtick.  He himself is not going to bring raw power to the fight.  He tricked her the first time, I think this time he's going to try and win using logic (vice trickery) and I think God is GAMBLING on TFW helping him out.  I expect them to be suitably pissed at the manipulation.  But I will also be surprised if the resolution is Amara's for-real death.  She might go back to non-corporeal.  She might go back to her cell. But I don't think she gets killed. 

 

Bottom Line for the TL, DR: I'm not squicked by Dean/Amara, and I think I see's God' virtual hand in all of this. 

[Aeryn13]

 

And I realize most folks don't think they do much planning.  When Carver acknowledged he didn't plan on making Dean a demon when he first took on the Mark of Cain, I was stunned.  I knew IMMEDIATELY this was bad juju and the idea of him becoming a demon was like "the third thing you say" (gratuitous SPN quote).  But I think this seasons' mytharc is NOT Carver, it's Dabb.  He's got co-writer credits on three scripts (at least) this season (past and future).  All with some likely mytharc angle.

 

The current Season doesn`t look like it`s planned out either. In the Season 10 Finale they introduced an entire new supernatural lore about the Mark of Cain just to end on the "Darkness is out" cliffhanger. ANY show/story worth its salt would have had at least hints, if not outright introduced the narrative before. Then they went on record to say that over the summer they would have to figure out how to write themselves out of this, i.e. Darkness and Death. Holy not-pre-planning-Batman. 

 

This Season, we are 14 episodes in, that is two thirds of the entire Season and the bond between Dean and Amara is still as nebulous as in the very first episode of the Season. Nothing, not even one iota has been explained about it, made clearer or explored about it. Nothing has been added to the mythology. Unless you count newly-declared "sidelined!Dean". Interview question about it get answered with "oh, um, vague bullshit... running away". 

 

They couldn`t/wouldn`t even explain if Amara couldn`t kill Dean in episode 9 or she changed her mind. That would have been an easy enough answer where you don`t have to give spoilers. You could just tease "you will find out the reason for it". They wrote it in. And yet when questioned about it, the answer is "um, no idea, viewers can make shit up?" So basically, they had no reason to write that even into the script? It was done for shits and giggles?

 

I`m not giving them, neither Carver nor Dabb nor anyone, the benefit of the doubt here. A well-written, planned out story looks like a well-written, planned-out story onscreen. While it is happening. And it is very easy to distinguish from a story that the writer/s was bullshitting and making up as they went along, then threw in some five-minutes-to-midnight-reveal and pretended like THAT was planned all along. After two thirds of a story, I expect the plot to have moved forward and grown some meat on its bones. If that hasn`t happened, then sorry, I consider it bullshit. 

[SueB]

They couldn`t/wouldn`t even explain if Amara couldn`t kill Dean in episode 9 or she changed her mind. That would have been an easy enough answer where you don`t have to give spoilers. You could just tease "you will find out the reason for it". They wrote it in. And yet when questioned about it, the answer is "um, no idea, viewers can make shit up?" So basically, they had no reason to write that even into the script? It was done for shits and giggles?

I thought teasing was EXACTLY what Carver was doing.

The TVLine bit:

TVLINE | It seemed like Amara was about to consume Dean’s soul, but then she either changed her mind or couldn’t physically do it. What happened?

That is one left up to the viewer to decide. We’re happy to let that one sit right where it is, and it’s all part of the complexities of the relationship between these two.

I interpreted "let that one sit right where it is" to be "let it stew" as in "this is important, remember this".

Let's see if it comes up again. This is a good test of whether or not that was planned or bullshit.

Edited February 20, 2016 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

And I interpreted the answer as exactly being "we have no fucking plan, stop asking me". 

 

 

Let's see if it comes up again. This is a good test of whether or not that was planned or bullshit.

 

For me "planned" is watching a show like Babylon 5 where as I am watching earlier Seasons I get certain clues and after I watch the conclusion, I can go back to those clues and go "wow, that was so clever how that tied in with this". Or in the Buffy Season 3 Finale you get a throwaway reference to a "Miss Muffet and counting down to 703". And only two years later, you get that 703 is the days, meaning two years and the kid sister Dawn shows up.

 

Yes, that might be lofty standards but treading water for 90 % of a Season and then throwing everything at the wall that sticks in the Finale is not what I have in mind. So even IF they picked that up again in episode 23, it`s too little and too late.

 

This show gets 23 episodes a Season, of which 5 or so are mytharc. I expect a continuous plot progression through the entirety of it. Dean and Amara`s bond was introduced in episode 1. How long am I supposed to give them till they give more definitive answers? Episode 22? I`m not talking about revealing all right away and I`m not talking instant gratification but I would have expected more than we got by now, WAY more by say episode 5 at the latest. We are now at 14 and 15 is a filler. That is simply too long for me. 

 

If I can skip about 18 - 19 episodes of a Season and not really lose anything of the plot, it`s a fail. Unless it`s a complete anthology series. Even procedurals loosely have overarching plots. You do that with other shows and skip one or two and you wouldn`t know what is going on.

Edited February 20, 2016 by Aeryn13

[ILoveReading]

I thought teasing was EXACTLY what Carver was doing.

The TVLine bit:

I interpreted "let that one sit right where it is" to be "let it stew" as in "this is important, remember this".

Let's see if it comes up again. This is a good test of whether or not that was planned or bullshit.

 

I believe that if the writers considered it an important plot point Carver wouldn't have started the response with  "That one is left up to the viewers to decide."  That alone cements my interpretation as "No clue because we don't actually care anything about this story."

 

From the sounds of Jensen's meet and greet at the con last weekend, someone said they were confused about the Amara/Dean thing.  Jensen's response was "me to."

 

They're filming ep 18.  If no writers has a definitive idea how how Amara is effecting Dean, that doesn't bode well for as it clearly indicates the writers didn't even seem to discuss it or plan anything beyond Dean and Amara have a connection.

[catrox14]

As to Dean and Amara's "connection".  Dean gave us his perspective. He spoke for himself that it was NOT love or desire or lust that he is feeling about Amara but he was not speaking FOR Amara. 

 

So whilst the connection has been confirmed as not sexual or lust or desire or love from Dean's side,  no such confirmation exists from Amara's side. I don't think viewers like me who do perceive a sexualized component in Amara's behavior towards Dean are overly sexualized viewers projecting onto Dean and Amara and seeing something that was not intended to be seen.

 

It was played purposefully as sexualized with adult!Amara in the first scene in 11.01. It was further played that way with 16!Amara and the "Girl You'll Be a Woman Soon" song which was only EVER about a teen girl becoming old enough for sex.  Then it was confirmed for me with the kiss Amara placed upon Dean which was open mouthed and non-consensual. Now, unless Amara was trying out a new way to suck out his soul, that was not a chaste kiss. And despite a brief lean into the kiss by Dean, he never asked for, and clearly didn't want it when he wrenched himself away from her and then tried to stab her.

 

I just can't help but think if, for instance demon!Dean had grabbed Ann-Marie's face and kissed her in the same way after telling her they would become one and asking why she wouldn't want that, would have been widely condemned as non-consensual and sexual assault. I see no difference here with Amara's behavior towards Dean. 

 

If God has a hand in teaching Amara some kind of lesson by using Dean in this way, well then God can fuck right off, AFAIC.

[catrox14]

I believe that if the writers considered it an important plot point Carver wouldn't have started the response with  "That one is left up to the viewers to decide."  That alone cements my interpretation as "No clue because we don't actually care anything about this story."

 

From the sounds of Jensen's meet and greet at the con last weekend, someone said they were confused about the Amara/Dean thing.  Jensen's response was "me to."

 

They're filming ep 18.  If no writers has a definitive idea how how Amara is effecting Dean, that doesn't bode well for as it clearly indicates the writers didn't even seem to discuss it or plan anything beyond Dean and Amara have a connection.

 

Jensen said in that meet and greet tidbit that the writers said initially it was a love/lust thing so that must go back to the beginning of the season or at least to before "The Kiss" episode. If that's what the writers wanted that explains the sexualized/lust/fascination thing from teen!Amara and then later adult!Amara.

 

IMO either Jensen and Phil (who is also an Executive Producer) nixed it OR Carver et al changed their mind about it being love/lust because of viewer backlash and we know they pay attention to those things. So Carver had to say "well we'll let the viewers decide" because they changed carts midstream. 

 

I have posited that Dean is soulless or partly so, but I don't really think that is ever going to be revealed as being the case, but devil's advocate, if that is what Amara did and they are holding that reveal until later, well I'll be both smug and surprised LOL.

Edited February 20, 2016 by catrox14