Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

I've been thinking about the literal Mark itself and it being a curse.

 

On Dean the Mark was a scar, like a brand and was in his veins implying it affected his entire body and soul IMO. That it was a metaphysical thing.  Cas said it couldn't be gotten rid of even if he cut off Dean's arm.

 

But Rowena says it's just a curse and can be removed by spell and apparently it was. So to me once the curse is lifted from Dean IMO there is no logical reason for Dean to still be affected by it whatsoever. Yet Amara claims that they are bound because Dean set her free, but Dean is NOT the one who set her free, that was Rowena so why isn't she bound to Rowena? Unless she is and we find out there is more to this.

 

When Dean hesitated to kill Amara in the Vortex I thought it was because he believed she saved him and he couldn't understand why she saved him. He said "If you are as bad as they say you are, why didn't you kill me" and she goes into how peaceful it feels there with him and then the 'you helped me so I helped you'. He seemed to have some agency more or less if hesitant to kill her but then when she shows him the Mark IMO he became more 'entranced'.  Or that's how it seemed.

 

Then he next sees it on Baby!Amara and IMO he became similarly entranced but not as strongly affected because he says he'll have to do what he has to do meaning kill her. Yet the moment Crowley moves to touch Amara, Dean flips out and goes after Crowley.  But then he doesn't go all the way with killing Crowley.  So is that because he just couldn't kill Crowley or because Amara didn't want him to kill Crowley because she needed to use Crowley.

 

Once Amara is off with Crowley, I'm not sure how much Dean was affected by her up until he confronts her again in Our Little World as teenage!creeper!Amara.   He was still able to pull the knife on her but then she flashes the Mark again and he becomes entranced once more.  He doesn't see her again until she zaps him away to the smiting spot where he had to physically turn away from her to summon the wherewithall to try and kill her. 

 

So now I'm wondering if the Mark itself is what puts him in that trance-like state.  I know Rowena claimed she didn't know about the Darkness being released but I find it hard to believe she didn't know it was a possibility. She had the book of the Damned and the codex long enough to figure out how to get rid of the curse, seems like she might have known at least enough to leave maybe leave a remnant or a spell that keeps Dean tethered to Amara. I mean it sure came in handy for Dean to be entranced to the point that he couldn't answer Sam's call, right when Rowena was ready to help get Lucifer out of the Cage.

 

Just a thought.

[catrox14]

ETA:  Re the Hand of God.,...

 

I wonder if that tattoo on the woman on the sub is the Hand of God "mark" like the Mark of Cain. Maybe Sam doesn't take on the Mark of Cain but becomes the Hand of God himself (God's vessel) to stop Amara. Sam doesn't have the anti-possession tattoo anymore so he does have room on his chest for that little tattoo....

[Demented Daisy]

From the Hammer of the Gods transcript (emphasis mine):

 

GABRIEL
Sam, Dean. You're probably wondering what the hell is going on. Well, if you're watching this, I'm dead. Oh please! Stop sobbing, it's embarrassing for all of us. Without me, you've got zero shot at killing Lucifer, sorry! But can trap him. The cage you sprung Lucifer from? It's still down there. And maybe, just maybe, you can shove his ass back in. Not that it'll be easy. You gotta get the cage open, trick my bro back into it.

 

 

Amara wants Dean to become one with her.  She also said that God tricked her into her imprisonment.

 

If we're going with a reboot/remake/rehash of S5, then I'd say Dean will say yes to Amara, then Billie will transport them to oblivion.  Or something similar.

 

Seems a bit on the nose, but I have no faith that Carver will come up with anything original.

[Diane]

http://tvline.com/2016/02/16/supernatural-rob-benedict-returns-chuck-god-season-11/

 

Chuck is back for episode 20

Edited February 16, 2016 by Diane

[catrox14]

That's a huge spoiler, so I don't think it will be Chuck as God.  I think it will be Chuck as Chuck.  Could be a flashback as well.

[Aeryn13]

I so don`t want them to make him officially God. If they bring in God, it can only be a huge shark-jump. Yes, I know Amara is God`s sister but what is God gonna do? Snap his fingers and fix the problem? A resounding no. Especially in episode 20. Tell them he won`t snap his fingers and fix the problem? Likely but then what is the freaking point. He tells them - and everyone else - that everyday BY not showing up.

 

He is also not someone who is needed to provide clues because he can always provide the entire answer. So dropping cryptic hint and wrapping it in a pseudo-pep-talk just makes him look even more like a dick. 

 

I hope they bring in Chuck as Chuck somehow. They retconned so much, make up some cockamamie explanation on why Kevin and other prophets were chosen and bla bla. But I fear he is gonna be God.

 

My biggest fear of course is that they are gonna pull a Death with him. Aka he will tell Sam specifically how honored he is to know the great Sam Winchester and Dean? Well, he will overlook him, belittle him, tell him to worship Sam more or send him to the kitchen to fetch them sandwiches. Or all of those combined. They fucking ruined Death for me like this. Keep your grubby mitts off of God.

[Demented Daisy]

Woo hoo!  So glad that Chuck/God will be returning.

 

Yep, I'm in the "Chuck is God" camp.   I think God and Amara are equals and He will be unable to just snap his fingers and fix everything.  He needed the help of his archangels last time to trick Amara.  He'll need help again.

[Aeryn13]

But I don`t think he will be in episodes 20-23 but likely only 20. Which means, he will not lead the charge against Amara. And even if he is in the Finale as well and did so, that would also be annoying to me.

 

They gave themselves some wiggle room by expositing that Amara wasn`t defeated with brute power but tricked. And they mentioned the Empty, apparently the place noone and nothing can come back from. That leaves a fighting chance even for mere mortals with some supernatural assist. It`s certainly morel likely in my eyes than defeating Lucifer by the sheer power of sudden onset Gary Stu-ism.

 

God may have needed the help of the also very powerful archangels but what does that mean for the Winchesters? He is God, if he is in it and they are not reduced to silly little helper monkeys, it looks ludicrous. And if they are reduced to that, it looks annoying.

 

I just see no possibly scenario whatsoever where bringing in God can be written in an even mildly satisfying way. These writers pulled lots of crap and unspeakable hints about sex with dogs but I had hoped that at least they would stay away from bringing in actual God into the show. Worst.idea.ever. for me.

 

And if they go there, they should at least have the good grace to end the show with it. Because what else is there supposed to come after this?  

Edited February 16, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Demented Daisy]

To each their own.  *shrug*  To me, it looks ludicrous if two humans, a demon, and an angel are able to do what God and His archangels were only barely able to do.  And it's annoying if they are able to figure out how to trick Amara without God's assistance.

[Aeryn13]

God doesn`t need to lend assistance, he can tell them step by step on what to do. It would be just like that scene in Season 7 where, after several episodes of supposedly picking up clues about the Leviathans, Bobby`s ghost comes back and gives the characters (and the audience) a powerpoint presentation on the entire plot. It was one of the stupidest exposition devices in history.

 

And if God doesn`t tell them and just keeps it enigmatic, he just looks like a dochebag who wastes everyone`s time by playing games. They already have Metatron for that.

 

Maybe it would be mildly amusing if God dressed everything like a set, then directed them "okay, Dean, stand on the X I drew on the ground, this is your mark, haha pun, to  lure Amara in."  "Sam, you will vessel for Lucifer again, you can cast him out easy-peasy afterwards again" "Cas, you will get blown up but no worries, I`ll bring you right back after, as always".

 

I already like Amara for nothing else but prefering Dean. If they bring in God, they are that much closer to have me rooting for her all the way. If she won, kicked him to the Empty and made the world her own, at least that would be ballsy.  

[catrox14]

I've questioned from the get go the idea that Amara is actually God's sister.

 

Remember the only person that told us that is Metatron.  And as lovely Hannah reminded Castiel 'Metatron lies".

 

I still do not understand why Cas and thus everyone else assumed that this is a fact when it came out of the biggest lying liar that ever lied.

 

So I think there is plenty of wiggle room still for this to just be Chuck the Prophet.

 

I just don't see why they would bring in God at Ep 20 and not ep 22 or 23 unless this is they are writing for a possible series end.

 

I also really don't want this to become a Dean/Amara agaisnt Sam/Chuck thing but who knows.

 

For me, at this point, Dean's had more or less no free will since he took on the MoC and even now without even having the Mark he's still got no agency about Amara.  I'll be pissed if this becomes about Dean finally just giving up all of his own free will and accepting God as someone he will have to rely on now, when God wasn't there in the past. 

 

I could see this being about Chuck the Prophet having been put back on Earth for reasons but he doesn't know why or how. And he won't know anything about Amara.  Heck maybe the Darkness being released messed with prophets altogether and he's not even a prophet anymore.

Edited February 16, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

God doesn`t need to lend assistance, he can tell them step by step on what to do. 

 

That's not how God operates in this universe, though.  God gives them the tools they need to fix their own mistakes.  He's brought them back from the dead, cured Sam of his demon blood addiction, put them on that plane, etc.  Sam and Dean started the Apocalypse, so He helped them avert it.

 

Same deal here.  Sam and Dean unleashed the Darkness, so it's their responsibility to lock her away again.  God could give them some sort of assistance, but He's not going to fix their mistakes.  He never has before, why start now?  

 

But then, I never thought He looked like a douchebag before, so I don't think that not fixing their mess makes Him one now.

 

 

I've questioned from the get go the idea that Amara is actually God's sister.

 

Remember the only person that told us that is Metatron.  And as lovely Hannah reminded Castiel 'Metatron lies".

 

I still do not understand why Cas and thus everyone else assumed that this is a fact when it came out of the biggest lying liar that ever lied.

 

Maybe that's why God shows up.  To let them know that Amara is not, in fact, His sister.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Aeryn13]

 

 

Sam and Dean unleashed the Darkness, so it's their responsibility to lock her away again.  God could give them some sort of assistance, but He's not going to fix their mistakes.  He never has before, why start now? 

But then, I never thought He looked like a douchebag before, so I don't think that not fixing their mess makes Him one now.

 

Pretty much because he can. She is his sister - and I do like that twist, I want to keep it - and her beef actually starts with him locking her away. He could have also easily stopped the Winchesters or anyone really from setting her free again.

 

But even if he just blames the Winchesters. Which, fair enough, they are not without sin. But the millions of other people on Earth didn`t release the Darkness. Yet they also suffer the consequences (theoretically, Amara hasn`t done a lot of evil yet) for a freed Darkness. Any omnipotent being who is at least equal to the Big Bad in power looks like an asshole in that situation if they don`t do their everything. Not just help but do everything they can. 

 

It`s in character for God on this show because he has been set up as a collossal dick to pretty much every single one of his creation but so far they haven`t at least made it that overt and the theme of an episode. Looks like that is about to change. 

Edited February 16, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

Maybe that's why God shows up.  To let them know that Amara is not, in fact, His sister.

 

 

To that end, God could send Prophet!Chuck back to Earth on this new mission to let them know it's not really God's sister at all.  I would believe Chuck over Metatron in this case :)

 

[snip]Sam and Dean unleashed the Darkness, so it's their responsibility to lock her away again.  [snip]

 

 

ETA: I'll die on the hill on this one, but Dean is NOT responsible for the release of the Darkness. I don't care how many times the show tries to put that on Dean that's not what happened. That is 100% on Sam, Rowena and Cas, mostly Rowena for the spellworks.

 

I really want the show to address this very clearly and stop having Dean believe he did that. Oh wait, they did in 11.01 until Sam said "no this is on us"...sigh...and Dean just accepted it. 

 

Yes I know Dean feels responsible because he took on the Mark in the first place but since the game changed to the Mark being what kept the Darkness locked away shouldn't Dean be getting full credit for having kept it at bay for two years? Considering he's getting blamed for it being released and he knew exactly the same amount of both things which was nothing.  I mean honestly why has NO ONE addressed that in all this.

 

But I seriously do wish the show would have Dean say, yeah you know what, I wasn't a part of that. That's on Sam et al and mean it.

 

And then let Dean face the consequences of having killed Death. i mean on a personal level. Like not just being afraid of getting sent to the Empty.

Edited February 16, 2016 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

Pretty much because he can. She is his sister - and I do like that twist, I want to keep it - and her beef actually starts with him locking her away. He could have also easily stopped the Winchesters or anyone really from setting her free again.

 

But even if he just blames the Winchesters. Which, fair enough, they are not without sin. But the millions of other people on Earth didn`t release the Darkness. Yet they also suffer the consequences (theoretically, Amara hasn`t done a lot of evil yet) for a freed Darkness. Any omnipotent being who is at least equal to the Big Bad in power looks like an asshole in that situation if they don`t do their everything. Not just help but do everything they can. 

 

It`s in character for God on this show because he has been set up as a collossal dick to pretty much every single one of his creation but so far they haven`t at least made it that overt and the theme of an episode. Looks like that is about to change. 

 

I disagree that He's a colossal dick.  Yes, the Winchesters have endangered millions on earth, but they're not the first and God didn't do anything before.  Either God has to be hands off all the time or He has to intervene every time.  If He intervenes every time, then free will doesn't exist.

 

IMO, of course.  From my perspective, God is not a "deadbeat dad".  He's a dad who lets his children screw up and learn from their mistakes.  Certain people never seem to learn, of course.

[Aeryn13]

 

If He intervenes every time, then free will doesn't exist.

 

He gave free will to one of his creations. Angels don`t seem to come by it naturally. Demons were created by Lucifer and Monsters by Eve. That leaves Leviathans whom he locked away. And his own sister had to go as well. I don`t think anyone owes him thanks or accolades at this point.

 

Now I don`t have a problem with how God is portrayed on the show per se. As a concept it`s fine if he is indifferent or blasé and ignores pleas for help for whatever motivation. I just have no faith - no pun intended - that they can make it work as an actual character onscreen.

 

I`ll enjoy seeing Rob Benedict because I really like him but as far as Supernatural is concerned I really don`t want to hear what their fictional God has to say. Whatever it may be, I don`t wanna know. He is only fine for me as a negative space people talk about but don`t interact with..     . 

[Demented Daisy]

He gave free will to one of his creations. Angels don`t seem to come by it naturally. Demons were created by Lucifer and Monsters by Eve. That leaves Leviathans whom he locked away. And his own sister had to go as well. I don`t think anyone owes him thanks or accolades at this point.

 

 

I don't understand what you mean here.  We were talking about humanity being threatened and whether He should intervene on their behalf.  He gave humanity free will.  I don't understand what angels, demons, monsters, or Leviathan have to do with that.  Or why you mentioned thanks or accolades.

[catrox14]

 

IMO, of course.  From my perspective, God is not a "deadbeat dad".  He's a dad who lets his children screw up and learn from their mistakes.  Certain people never seem to learn, of course

 

I guess then the question becomes at what point does hands off "tough love" turn into neglect and cruelty to the children he supposedly favored at least equally to his own.  Should his children (humanity) just be condemned to suffer because they just don't get it to his satisfaction? It seems a little capricious to me.

 

Maybe the problem isn't with the student but the lesson plan. Maybe God's just a bad teacher.

[MysteryGuest]

I will be disappointed if Chuck is really God.  Considering how we were introduced to the character, he was basically an alcoholic who didn't even understand what he was doing when he was writing those books.  And this was not just a pretense he kept up to fool Sam and Dean, this is who he was when he was alone.  So how does God not know he's God?  I would get that he wouldn't know he was a prophet, just like Kevin didn't, but I'm not buying the God thing.  It's going to piss me off if they go there.

 

I think Dean's connection with Amara is simply because he had the Mark of Cain, and then he got rid of it.  It's not about who cast the spell, or who worked behind the scenes to make it go away, it's that Dean was the boy with his finger in the dike, and then he let go, thus freeing Amara.  

 

I'm not convinced that Dean won't play a part in Amara's eventual demise.  I think his coming clean to Sam about how he's questioning himself was just a BM.  This whole season has been about the boys confiding in one another, and not keeping things secret, and that was just the latest one.  Even if Sam thinks it's all on him now, I have a feeling Dean will have to be the one to kill her when the time comes.  And it's going to take more than a butter knife to do it.  

[catrox14]

 

It's not about who cast the spell, or who worked behind the scenes to make it go away, it's that Dean was the boy with his finger in the dike, and then he let go, thus freeing Amara.

 

 

Keeping with your analogy then Dean should be hailed a hero for holding back the Darkness.  But he wasn't. It wasn't even considered as a heroic act by anyone including Death.

[MysteryGuest]

Well, no one knew the Mark's purpose until about 30 seconds before death was killed and the Mark was removed.  I'm guessing that if Sam hadn't already arranged to have the Mark removed, Dean would have opted to keep it, rather than releasing the Darkness.  But then we wouldn't have this year's fabulous storyline.

Edited February 17, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[ILoveReading]

 

I'm not convinced that Dean won't play a part in Amara's eventual demise.  I think his coming clean to Sam about how he's questioning himself was just a BM.  This whole season has been about the boys confiding in one another, and not keeping things secret, and that was just the latest one.  Even if Sam thinks it's all on him now, I have a feeling Dean will have to be the one to kill her when the time comes.  And it's going to take more than a butter knife to do it.  

Taking my response to the bitterness thread.

[catrox14]

Interview with Jensen

 

 

I don't think it's too spoilery but putting it here in case

 

Edited February 17, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

And then let Dean face the consequences of having killed Death. i mean on a personal level. Like not just being afraid of getting sent to the Empty.

 

I doubt that is going to happen, because what I think is going to happen is that killing Death will end up being a good thing, because of the whole Empty threat which will probably end up being a big part of how they defeat Amara. That's just how things go on this show. The same kind of thing happened with Gadreel. Even though Dean was rash - in my opinion - in praying for any angel listening to come and save Sam, and he didn't really think about the consequences, lo and behold Gadreel was needed to help save the world, so the only consequences he faced for doing that was some angsting over Kevin.  Taking on the mark of Cain worked to kill Abaddon, and was only a problem because of Sam and Castiel. Even Dean's becoming a demon had no long-lasting affects on anyone else that Dean had to deal with.

 

It's generally only Sam's and Castiel's rash decisions that directly lead to apocalypse causing situations. Dean's rash decisions generally only affect Dean, end up bad only because someone else messes up, or end up having good results. That's just the way it goes on this show. I therefore don't expect any world-endangering consequences to come of Dean's killing Death. More likely it will be a good thing, so Dean won't have any consequences to deal with. (And if that does turn out to be the case, then I'm pretty sure that I called that as soon as it happened.)

[SueB]

Im thrilled Rob is back. I fully expect him to be God and can't wait to see him interact with he boys. I don't think Chuck was God. I think God put Chuck in Witness protection just prior to the start of Swan Song.

They've been telegraphing God's arrival all season. IMO that was the point of mentioning his absence so many times. I also think they've made it clear that he's not going to defeat Amara with raw power. Megaton said that Creation was hard work and that sacrifices had to be made. He either implicitly or explicitly said God sacrificed Amara. So I think his end game could be to save her. And I suspect he needs her willing to accept Free Will in order to save her from exile again.

Which means Dean is still likely the linchpin player as it's his will Amara is violating. I don't think any conventional solutions will work. I also think God made the Mark. God forged the weird connection between Dean and Amara.

[shang yiet]

I agree with Awesom.. Look how Dean's bad MOC decision led to Sam's even worse Darkness mistake. Everything always seems to be Sam's fault in the end so I don't grudge Sam having a vital role in stopping the Darkness. He needs a victory.

 

I think he needs to succeed this time instead of screwing up all over again. Nothing has worked for him since Swan Song and that was six seasons ago.

Edited February 17, 2016 by shang yiet

[Demented Daisy]

Keeping with your analogy then Dean should be hailed a hero for holding back the Darkness.  But he wasn't. It wasn't even considered as a heroic act by anyone including Death.

 

Because everything was fine before he took the Mark.  Cain had it and was managing just fine.  He wasn't killing, he was actually doing some good by raising bees.

 

But then Dean (and Crowley, who I hold equally, if not more, responsible for this whole debacle) came along and screwed everything up.  Had they just left Cain alone, the Darkness never would have been released.  Dean didn't ask what would happen.  He was foolish and reckless, which is not heroic in my book.

[Demented Daisy]

I doubt that is going to happen, because what I think is going to happen is that killing Death will end up being a good thing, because of the whole Empty threat which will probably end up being a big part of how they defeat Amara. That's just how things go on this show. The same kind of thing happened with Gadreel. Even though Dean was rash - in my opinion - in praying for any angel listening to come and save Sam, and he didn't really think about the consequences, lo and behold Gadreel was needed to help save the world, so the only consequences he faced for doing that was some angsting over Kevin.  Taking on the mark of Cain worked to kill Abaddon, and was only a problem because of Sam and Castiel. Even Dean's becoming a demon had no long-lasting affects on anyone else that Dean had to deal with.

 

It's generally only Sam's and Castiel's rash decisions that directly lead to apocalypse causing situations. Dean's rash decisions generally only affect Dean, end up bad only because someone else messes up, or end up having good results. That's just the way it goes on this show. I therefore don't expect any world-endangering consequences to come of Dean's killing Death. More likely it will be a good thing, so Dean won't have any consequences to deal with. (And if that does turn out to be the case, then I'm pretty sure that I called that as soon as it happened.)

 

I don't know what they'll do with Death -- I tend to suspect it's a whole lot of nothing -- but I've disagreed with you about Dean before and I'll continue to do so.  I suspect that Kevin, Cain, and Charlie might agree with me.  Oh, and Billie the Reaper.  She didn't seem too happy with Dean.  Then there are the people who lost their souls to Amara....

 

ETA  And all the people that Cain killed.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Demented Daisy

[Myrelle]

In show, both have been blamed for playing a part in releasing the Darkness, so IMO, both of them should merit pro-active redemption storylines. At this point, all I want or care about is that Dean be given a pro-active redemption storyline this time around-especially, if he's being pinned within show of even being a part of the cause and, as such, is carrying some of the rightful blame. Dean was never given a redemption sl in S5, even though to this day some in this fandom still place blame on him for breaking in hell which caused the breaking of the first seal; and we know from On the Head of a Pin and Sam Interrupted that he blamed himself for that also.

 

Dean took on the Mark to stop Abaddon, who(again within show) was shown to be a threat to humanity, and even though she was only on the loose thanks to both brothers ill-conceived plans regarding closing the gates of hell. Demons were coming through the doors and windows when Dean took on the Mark. I honestly don't think there was a lot of time for him to ask about the downside, but I keep seeing that he was reckless for not asking. When recklessness comes into the equation, I think both brothers have exhibited their fair share of that. I don't see it as unheroic because in almost every instance they are/were trying to fix some mistake or wrong that they felt they had perpetrated. They are still trying, still grinding, if you will, but IMO, the question has now become should they still keep doing that-trying to fix mistakes that just lead to other mistakes. Are their good intentions worth anything if nothing changes and world shattering events just keep happening and often because of them and as a result of their actions?

 

Imo, they are doing their best, but their best since S5 has only lead from one Apocalypse to another and another and another. And yet they still keep trying to fix their perceived mistakes and wrong-doings. IDK, maybe humanity and the world would be better off if they both just stopped and gave up the fight. That certainly seemed to be Death's take on things in the S10 finale, and he almost had Dean(and me!) convinced of it. Maybe Dean has not forgotten that and maybe if he can work it out so that Sam doesn't have to die or sacrifice himself to being possessed by Lucifer, and that only Dean, himself, has to go away, to put things right, he will consider doing just that, freely and of his own choice, and so earn redemption in his own mind, at least. And possibly a final peace and "rest" too, if that which he finds most fascinating and alluring and tempting about Amara/The Darkness is what I think it is-and as he said in this latest episode, it is not love or desire.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Myrelle

[Aeryn13]

 

I don't understand what you mean here.  We were talking about humanity being threatened and whether He should intervene on their behalf.  He gave humanity free will.  I don't understand what angels, demons, monsters, or Leviathan have to do with that.  Or why you mentioned thanks or accolades.

 

When I said I consider God to be a douche to all his creations, I was including Angels and Leviathans. They have just as much, if not more, right to bitch about him than humans. You could argue Leviathans in general were too dangerous to be left to roam but he made them so if they are flawed, it`s his fault. Angels, he made to obey his will/law and then fucked off. 

 

And what I meant by thanks and accolades is that if his position is like a parent who just wants to teach their children a valuable lesson about growing up and independence, that would be to me like him saying "and I deserve ample pats on the back for that, aren`t I grand?" I think his motivation was simply: he wasn`interested in the burden and/or responsibility of running things. So when it just comes down to him and his sister, the Darkness has legitimate beef with him. I can`t disagree with her.   

 

 

But then Dean (and Crowley, who I hold equally, if not more, responsible for this whole debacle) came along and screwed everything up.  Had they just left Cain alone, the Darkness never would have been released.

 

They tried to establish with Cain that relapse is inevitable. Maybe it came 100 years sooner with Dean`s interference but it would have come regardless. However, he wouldn`t have had anyone - most likely - be interested in removing the Mark from him, ergo no freed Darkness. Which IMO means whatever Dean did, doesn`t remotely cancel out Sam`s (and Cas` and Rowena`s) responsibility. Just because Dean did one thing doesn`t mean Sam couldn`t have left things well enough alone. Or, tried to at least stop the spell when he knew the stakes. One lousy attempt at least. That`s on him, not on Dean.    

[shang yiet]

In show, both have been blamed for playing a part in releasing the Darkness,

 

But not in fandom.

 

so IMO, both of them should merit pro-active redemption storylines.

 

 

 

Sure. Dean's MOC mistake is all on him.

 

In show, Dean was not blamed for releasing Lucifer, the blame fell on Sam. So there was nothing to redeem. He was blameless. Technically, Dean did start the chain of events by breaking the first seal but that's not the same as blaming him. I myself said several times at TWOP that I would break in 4 minutes so I would never blame Dean for breaking in 40 years, 40 minutes or 40 days.

 

So Dean can blame himself for everything under the sun but the show's narrative doesn't have to agree with him,.

Edited February 17, 2016 by shang yiet

[Myrelle]

Dean blames himself, yes. That has been shown to us in-show. I want a better delving into THAT, and it should involve his connectionwith The Darkness/Amara, IMO.

As for what fandom thinks, I stopped caring about that long ago, excepting in how it is reflected/responded to by the writers, within the writing of the show and the disposition of the characters' storylines-who we know DO take fandom response/reaction into account if the shouting is loud enough.

They cannot take back Dean's storyline this time if he is blamed within show-which he has been-so, they better not drop or withdraw this Dean storyline as they did his connection with Michael or his having broken the first seal. Dean's guilt needs better exploration, IMO. How many times have they brought it up just to do away with it via a "Suck it up NOW!, Dean." speech; a "There's no time for your issues, Dean." speech; a "Your brother's life is in danger/The world is in danger, Dean." speech. His issues are likely connected with the darkness within himself AND with his connection with The literal Darkness so the more overt in-show blame this time around is precisely why we should get both an internal examination of Dean's thoughts and feelings on the darkness within himself AND why he should also be gifted with a bona-fide and pro-active redemption sl this time around-and as Sam was gifted with the first time and as I'm sure that he will have this time around also.

We both want the same things for our favorite. And as we discussed recently in another thread, there in nothing wrong with that. Let us hope that the writers are at least getting that message from the fandom. We'll see.

[Demented Daisy]

And what I meant by thanks and accolades is that if his position is like a parent who just wants to teach their children a valuable lesson about growing up and independence, that would be to me like him saying "and I deserve ample pats on the back for that, aren`t I grand?" I think his motivation was simply: he wasn`t interested in the burden and/or responsibility of running things. So when it just comes down to him and his sister, the Darkness has legitimate beef with him. I can`t disagree with her.   

 

 

They tried to establish with Cain that relapse is inevitable. Maybe it came 100 years sooner with Dean`s interference but it would have come regardless. However, he wouldn`t have had anyone - most likely - be interested in removing the Mark from him, ergo no freed Darkness. Which IMO means whatever Dean did, doesn`t remotely cancel out Sam`s (and Cas` and Rowena`s) responsibility. Just because Dean did one thing doesn`t mean Sam couldn`t have left things well enough alone. Or, tried to at least stop the spell when he knew the stakes. One lousy attempt at least. That`s on him, not on Dean.    

 

To your first point: as a parent, I cannot stress enough that I, personally, have never asked my daughter to thank me for raising her, teaching her, taking care of her, etc.  I brought her into this world, she did not ask to be.  So I don't understand your point.  Sorry.  I see nothing that leads me to think that God has asked to be thanked for creating humanity.  But, hey, art is all about interpretation.

 

To your second point: when did they show that Cain's relapse was inevitable?  Who is trying to cancel out Sam (and Cas and Rowena and Crowley, I might add)'s responsibility in removing the Mark?  I have lost track of how many times I have blamed them all for what happened.

 

To that point:

 

 

But not in fandom.

 

Dammit, I (and others around here) are part of the fandom and I am sick of my opinions being disregarded just because I don't agree with what some other arbitrary group of people think.

 

The SPN fandom is not an exercise in group-think.

[catrox14]

Because everything was fine before he took the Mark.  Cain had it and was managing just fine.  He wasn't killing, he was actually doing some good by raising bees.

 

But then Dean (and Crowley, who I hold equally, if not more, responsible for this whole debacle) came along and screwed everything up.  Had they just left Cain alone, the Darkness never would have been released.  Dean didn't ask what would happen.  He was foolish and reckless, which is not heroic in my book.

 

 

Cain was in remission.  We don't know how long the remission would have lasted because Dean did show up. But this just kind of highlights why tying the Darkness to the Mark of Cain is just plain stupid and fucks up so many things with no satisfying resolution.

 

If Cain did not know he was the Lock, regardless of what questions Dean might have asked, the part about holding back the Darkness would have never been a discussion point. So Dean wouldn't have been able to give his consent to being the Lock because Cain never knew.  So any side effects would not have been discussed. The only thing Cain said is that it was a great burden which we later find out is bloodlust more than anything...until we find out no...it was really the Lock holding back the biggest bad that ever badded.

 

If Cain knew he was the Lock, then IMO he had the responsibility to make sure Dean was fully briefed on that responsibility but he didn't. So either Cain was a total asshole who just didn't want to be the Lock anymore and didn't care if Dean understood the ramifications or he didn't want to risk Dean saying no. Again, what questions would Dean have even thought about asking in that moment...other than maybe "Will I become a demon".  He just wanted to kill that biggest bad at that time.

 

But let's say Dean did get all the fine print, that he knew was going to be the Lock, and that he would become a murdering murderer or it would be death and resurrection as a demon, would taking on the Mark then be a heroic act? 

 

Or would he only be a hero if he told Sam "Lock me in the dungeon for all eternity so I protect humanity from the Darkness and myself?" If so, then Dean was willing to have himself put into outer space  which is also a heroic act/sacrifice.  But the one thing Dean wasn't willing to sacrifice was Sam. 

 

And somehow I still don't know WTF the show is trying to tell me about their relationship and their relationship with the rest of the world.

 

I mean it seems that the boys being "back together" working on the same side is a good thing but if they keep saving each other...it's a bad thing...but if Dean had killed Sam in the bar...they wouldn't be back together...so which is it, show?? 

Edited February 17, 2016 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

I think the "good thing" is that they are more open to each other, not keeping secrets, running around behind the brother's back. Sam told Dean about the visions as they happened. Sam told Dean about being infected pretty damned soon, for them. Dean opened up about the effect The Darkness has on him, again, not right away, but pretty damned soon. Sam and Dean decided, together, to check out Lucifer. As for why Sam, Crowley, and Rowena went dashing off before they could get in touch with Dean...my head!canon is that Rowena had been subtly leaning on them with magic, to make them feel things were urgent.

[Demented Daisy]

Cain was in remission.  We don't know how long the remission would have lasted because Dean did show up. But this just kind of highlights why tying the Darkness to the Mark of Cain is just plain stupid and fucks up so many things with no satisfying resolution.

 

If Cain did not know he was the Lock, regardless of what questions Dean might have asked, the part about holding back the Darkness would have never been a discussion point. So Dean wouldn't have been able to give his consent to being the Lock because Cain never knew.  So any side effects would not have been discussed. The only thing Cain said is that it was a great burden which we later find out is bloodlust more than anything...until we find out no...it was really the Lock holding back the biggest bad that ever badded.

 

If Cain knew he was the Lock, then IMO he had the responsibility to make sure Dean was fully briefed on that responsibility but he didn't. So either Cain was a total asshole who just didn't want to be the Lock anymore and didn't care if Dean understood the ramifications or he didn't want to risk Dean saying no. Again, what questions would Dean have even thought about asking in that moment...other than maybe "Will I become a demon".  He just wanted to kill that biggest bad at that time.

 

But let's say Dean did get all the fine print, that he knew was going to be the Lock, and that he would become a murdering murderer or it would be death and resurrection as a demon, would taking on the Mark then be a heroic act? 

 

Or would he only be a hero if he told Sam "Lock me in the dungeon for all eternity so I protect humanity from the Darkness and myself?" If so, then Dean was willing to have himself put into outer space  which is also a heroic act/sacrifice.  But the one thing Dean wasn't willing to sacrifice was Sam. 

 

And somehow I still don't know WTF the show is trying to tell me about their relationship and their relationship with the rest of the world.

 

I mean it seems that the boys being "back together" working on the same side is a good thing but if they keep saving each other...it's a bad thing...but if Dean had killed Sam in the bar...they wouldn't be back together...so which is it, show?? 

 

What question could Dean have asked?  How about, "What do you mean?" instead of "Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at 'kill the bitch'."  Cain had the demons at bay and they had all the time in the world.  Dean could have asked a million questions, but he was so angry and hurt and regretful over Kevin's death that he became reckless.  Just like when he sold his soul to save Sam.  Neither worked out well for him or the world, IMO.

 

Taking on the Mark only becomes a heroic act, IMO, if he did it for the right reasons.  It was no act of self-sacrifice.  It wasn't even so he could go after the angel who killed Kevin.  Crowley put Dean on a path and Dean strolled right on down it without thinking twice.  He wasn't trying to save anyone by taking the Mark.  So how could it be heroic?

 

And, sorry, I don't buy that he was saving humanity by killing Abbadon.  She hadn't done anything worse than what Crowley has been doing for centuries.  If they wanted me to believe that Abbadon was an Apocalypse-level threat to humanity, they should have done more than have her steal a handful of souls and snark at Crowley.

[catrox14]

I think the "good thing" is that they are more open to each other, not keeping secrets, running around behind the brother's back. Sam told Dean about the visions as they happened. Sam told Dean about being infected pretty damned soon, for them. Dean opened up about the effect The Darkness has on him, again, not right away, but pretty damned soon. Sam and Dean decided, together, to check out Lucifer. As for why Sam, Crowley, and Rowena went dashing off before they could get in touch with Dean...my head!canon is that Rowena had been subtly leaning on them with magic, to make them feel things were urgent.

 

Well, yes those are good things, but I'm still not understanding what the show is telling us about them vs the rest of the world.  Are they just trying to heal the relationship for when Sam has to decide not to Save Dean to save humanity.

 

This is kind of Chekhov's proclamation:

 

DEAN: Yeah, how are you gonna find it if you're dead? And around and around we go.

SAM: Saving people means all of the people, Dean. Not just that baby. Not just each other. I unleashed a force on this world that could destroy it . . . to save you.

DEAN: And I told you not to.

SAM: And I'd do it again. In a second, I would do it again. And that is what I'm talking about. This isn't on you. It is on us. We have to change.

 

It seems to me, Sam is going to have be faced with saving Dean vs saving the World.  I think he's going to have to kill Dean in order to kill Amara.  Yeah I know Jensen claims they are not bound that way...and maybe at the time he said it that was true.  But if they setup Sam with that big proclamation, he's going to have to be faced with it.  Unless he finds another way. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

 

If Cain knew he was the Lock,

 

Back when they wrote First Born, I`m convinced no writer even had an inkling about the Darkness. In hindsight of course, Cain was ambiguous enough that it could go either way. If he knew, I think he cared about as much as Death or God. Who definitely knew. Cain could decide at his leisure when or if he would give Dean the MOC. Like you said, he could have said "listen, dude, I`ll give you this thing but only if you fucking listen first". But his goal/priority was getting Abaddon and himself killed. In that order. So he acted rashly as well and ultimately paid the price.

 

Likewise, Death only came out of the woodwork five minutes to midnight. Thanks for nothing. And got himself killed with basically his own Darwin Award. I mean, this scene was so bloody stupid. 

 

God didn`t come at all. He must have seen what was about to happen. He could have stepped in when the spell was about to go down, slap everyone with a frying pan and explain the situation. He did at no point. Apparently being Mr.La-di-da was more fun. So if God really IS coming back, it would probably be too much to hope for that he gets epic shit for it? Maybe if Casifer is still around by that point. And normally I don`t like Metatron but he could do so as well.   

[Demented Daisy]

So if God really IS coming back, it would probably be too much to hope for that he gets epic shit for it? 

 

That's what I've been lobbying for for years.  I want to see Dean rip God a new one, just like he said he would.

[Myrelle]

"He wasn't trying to save anyone by taking the Mark.  So how could it be heroic?"

He stated that he wanted it to kill Abaddon. I had actually forgotten that Cain wanted Abaddon dead also. Abaddon WAS stealing human souls in order to form an army so his stated intention can be seen as heroic because he WAS trying to stop her from doing that. Were those intentions also mixed up and in with feelings of regret, shame, guilt, anger at himself, etc.? Absolutely. Was he yet again throwing himself into his job in a reckless fashion to forget/make up for mistakes he'd made? Probably. Sure.  But IMO, he WAS indeed trying to save the lives and souls of those Abaddon would see made into her demon army. So yes, it could still be seen as heroic, IMO. But as with everything on this show, MV for every viewer. 

[catrox14]

 

And, sorry, I don't buy that he was saving humanity by killing Abbadon.  She hadn't done anything worse than what Crowley has been doing for centuries.  If they wanted me to believe that Abbadon was an Apocalypse-level threat to humanity, they should have done more than have her steal a handful of souls and snark at Crowley.

 

She was harvesting souls to build a demon army so she could rule Hell, Earth and Heaven. The few we saw was the first salvo.  That was the threat that Sam and Dean BOTH agreed needed to be dealt with.  As I recall, Sam said "Abaddon is an even bigger piece of crap than you" when he was talking to Crowley. Whether we saw it in action, the show said she was the immediate threat and told us her plan. So yes I think he did save humanity by killing her and it was heroic. 

 

It seems to me since the show chose to retroactively make the Mark of Cain into this UBER important one and only  method of keeping the biggest bad that ever badded from harming humanity, then IMO whoever bore the Mark and kept the Darkness at bay, was doing a heroic thing by having it, including Cain and Lucifer.  I mean they also were turned into murdering murderers that murdered but they kept out the Darkness so maybe that makes them anti-heroes more than heroes.

 

But I highly doubt the show intends to say that Cain or Lucifer were retroactively heroic so then I suspect they won't say that about Dean either.

Edited February 17, 2016 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

They didn`t bother to make Abaddon a credible threat when she was on. Just as they failed with every single bad guy, including Lucifer, other than Azazel. He may have "just" burned a few mothers on the ceiling but he was the most credible threat and scariest villain they managed in 11 years.

[catrox14]

They didn`t bother to make Abaddon a credible threat when she was on. Just as they failed with every single bad guy, including Lucifer, other than Azazel. He may have "just" burned a few mothers on the ceiling but he was the most credible threat and scariest villain they managed in 11 years.

 

Regardless if they made them credible threats on screen to our satisfaction, they were declared the big bads and threats to humanity by the show. So for me, if the big bad is killed by Dean or Sam that makes them heroes in my book or at least anti-hero in Dean's case with the Mark.

[catrox14]

Sneak peek from The Vessel

 

 

https://amp.twimg.com/v/ed268b37-e9ea-4ed5-96c6-fb0e589bb331

 

 

Really, Sam?  You didn't leave any coffee for Dean?? My gods. How do expect Dean to function?? That's just some rude shit, Samuel.

Edited February 17, 2016 by catrox14

[NoWillToResist]

Woo hoo!  So glad that Chuck/God will be returning.

 

Yep, I'm in the "Chuck is God" camp.   I think God and Amara are equals and He will be unable to just snap his fingers and fix everything.  He needed the help of his archangels last time to trick Amara.  He'll need help again.

 

Fuck it. Let's just have God turn up to make Dean and Sam archangels, throw Lucifer/Cas into the mix and take Amara down. Then, God takes all of them off the playing board. ;)

 

 

In show, Dean was not blamed for releasing Lucifer, the blame fell on Sam. So there was nothing to redeem. He was blameless. Technically, Dean did start the chain of events by breaking the first seal but that's not the same as blaming him. I myself said several times at TWOP that I would break in 4 minutes so I would never blame Dean for breaking in 40 years, 40 minutes or 40 days.

 

So Dean can blame himself for everything under the sun but the show's narrative doesn't have to agree with him,.

 

Granted, it's been a long-ass time since I watched an episode, never mind RE-WATCHED the older ones, so forgive me but, hasn't all this shit happened because Dean couldn't let Sam die at the end of S2 (I think)? I don't blame Sam for releasing Lucifer because they didn't know about the final seal business and I don't blame Dean for breaking after 40 years in hell. HOWEVER, Dean was only in hell because he sold his stupid-ass soul so that Sam would be resurrected, no? Had Dean managed to let his little brother shuffle off this mortal coil almost a decade ago, would any of the later stuff (Lilith/seals/Lucifer/MOC/Darkness) have happened?

 

Am I mis-remembering things because to my recollection:

 

Dean couldn't let Sam die; sells soul for Sammy's life; seals/Lucifer etc. result.

Dean couldn't let Sam die to close the gates of hell; Abaddon rises and Dean takes on the MOC to kill her. (I think)

Dean couldn't kill Sam to get rid of the MOC; kills Death instead which gave Rowena time to get rid of the MOC and the Darkness was released.

 

I think this is why I grew tired of the show. Every possible win seems to carry the price tag of one of their deaths which is a non-starter with these fuckers (and obviously the show) and I got bored of it. Until they get to a point where they are willing to live without the other, or the writers come up with a better price tag for a win, the world will suffer. It ceased being touching (for me) a long time ago.

 

I have every expectation that to get rid of the Darkness, someone's life will be the cost and blah blah blah....

Edited February 17, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[Aeryn13]

 

 

Dean couldn't let Sam die to close the gates of hell; Abaddon rises and Dean takes on the MOC to kill her. (I think)

Dean couldn't kill Sam to get rid of the MOC; kills Death instead which gave Rowena time to get rid of the MOC and the Darkness was released.

 

I think that`s a bit simplistic to pin everything on Dean and absolve everyone else of their choices like bouncy-bouncy babies. It was still Sam`s choice to abort the trials. Dean didn`t physically or supernaturally stop him. And noone knows if closing the gates of hell meant demons already topside, like Abaddon, would be sucked back in. Or, if it worked like Heaven, seal Hell up and all demons come to Earth and/or no evil souls can go to Hell.

 

And Dean wasn`t supposed to get rid of the MOC - Death said he could share it with someone else but Death couldn`t remove it either. Instead Dean was supposed to get send into outer space or somewhere WITH the Mark. Death just had the ludicrous idea that for that to stick, Sam needed to die first. If Dean had killed Sam, the spell would still have gone on as planned, MOC removed and Darkness released. 

Edited February 17, 2016 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

 

Dean had killed Sam, the spell would still have gone on as planned, MOC removed and Darkness released.

 

THIS. THIS is why I'm beating that horse about Dean not being responsible for the release of the Darkness.  It was going to happen regardless of Sam's death or not.  And regardless of Death's death..  It just really annoys me.

 

As to Dean and the first deal....well we can actually track it all the way back to

 

John makes a deal for Dean. If Dean is dead he doesn't make the deal for Sam.

 

And we have no show LOL

[AwesomO4000]

I don't know what they'll do with Death -- I tend to suspect it's a whole lot of nothing -- but I've disagreed with you about Dean before and I'll continue to do so.  I suspect that Kevin, Cain, and Charlie might agree with me.  Oh, and Billie the Reaper.  She didn't seem too happy with Dean.  Then there are the people who lost their souls to Amara....

 

ETA  And all the people that Cain killed.

 

I'm not really sure what we are disagreeing about concerning Dean except maybe degree, because...

 

What question could Dean have asked?  How about, "What do you mean?" instead of "Yeah, well, spare me the warning label. You had me at 'kill the bitch'."  Cain had the demons at bay and they had all the time in the world.  Dean could have asked a million questions, but he was so angry and hurt and regretful over Kevin's death that he became reckless.  Just like when he sold his soul to save Sam.  Neither worked out well for him or the world, IMO.

I pretty much agree...

Taking on the Mark only becomes a heroic act, IMO, if he did it for the right reasons.  It was no act of self-sacrifice.  It wasn't even so he could go after the angel who killed Kevin.  Crowley put Dean on a path and Dean strolled right on down it without thinking twice.  He wasn't trying to save anyone by taking the Mark.  So how could it be heroic?

 

I pretty much agree. Except I think that his wanting to take care of Abaddon was in there also as motivation (with part of that as guilt for being partially responsible for her in the first place). Saving everyone certainly wasn't Dean's only motivation, though, and the rest of his motivations were flawed .

 

This is the only part that I disagree a tiny bit on...

And, sorry, I don't buy that he was saving humanity by killing Abbadon.  She hadn't done anything worse than what Crowley has been doing for centuries.  If they wanted me to believe that Abbadon was an Apocalypse-level threat to humanity, they should have done more than have her steal a handful of souls and snark at Crowley.

 

And that's mostly in retrospect. It is interesting to me that to have this decision not mostly just a bad decision on Dean's part, the show gave a bunch of an episode to have Sam - in his only solo kill that season - find out about Abaddon's plan, tell Dean he was right, and agree wholeheartedly that something had to be done about Abaddon... so even though you and I saw Dean's motivations as more than a little flawed, the narrative - in my opinion - was after the fact trying to minimize the rash decision: "See, Abaddon is bad news. Good thing Dean took on that mark so he can kill her." But how was Dean supposed to know that when he took on the mark to begin with?

 

(Answer: imo he wasn't - and this was the general point I had been trying to make - badly - earlier when I was talking about Dean's "uncanny" ability when it came to knowing who to trust, what to do, etc. on the show (which I later apologized for my bad use of words and not making myself clear.))

 

But - again in my opinion only - often when Dean makes rash decisions like taking on the mark, the narrative often makes this turn out to be a good thing by stuff that happens later to justify it or by making someone else's decision much worse. This is why I predicted that Sam's decisions would all go kablooey on him and anything major that happened with the mark would then be mostly Sam's fault about 6 or more episodes before the end of the season, because that's generally how it goes. (And we do disagree about Charlie, too, in that I thought the show pretty much established that Charlie's death was Sam's, Castiel's, and partially Charlie's* fault. Dean was extremely against anything having to do with a spell to get rid of the mark, and made it a point that Dean mentioned this many times.)

 

* The Steins were after Charlie before Dean even got involved, because of the Book of the Damned - which Dean had no part in getting Charlie to go after really. Charlie likely would've been killed earlier by the Steins without Dean's help.

 

This was the point of my above post. We even pretty much agree about this:

I don't know what they'll do with Death -- I tend to suspect it's a whole lot of nothing

 

Except I think it'll be a whole lot of nothing, because for me that pattern was established long ago on this show. I don't know if it's because the writers are afraid to have a decision of Dean's turn out to go badly - and only badly - or to have him go really dark or what, but it just isn't something that they seem willing to do with him as they have for Sam and Castiel.

 

And we especially agree about this:

 

That's what I've been lobbying for for years.  I want to see Dean rip God a new one, just like he said he would.

 

Oh, hell yes!

 

And I hope Sam helps, because God has screwed him just as much. Lucifer's vessel - come on, how crappy is that?

 

In show, both have been blamed for playing a part in releasing the Darkness,

 

I've not really seen that. Sam's "It is on us. We have to change." from the quote catrox gave above, for me, was Sam referring to their attitude in general - like say that they both sacrifice the world to save each other (like when Dean sold his soul or got Gadreel involved and he also said the exact same thing - that he would do it again) and not really the Darkness in particular. Especially since just before Sam said the above it was again stated by Dean that "And I told you not to." and Sam had earlier admitted in his confession that this was his (Sam's) fault, and had also just stated "I unleashed a force on this earth." Not we. Sam said I.

 

What Amara says is irrelevant to me as she is an unreliable narrator - as is Dean for that matter, since he blames himself for everything.

 

I personally don't see the narrative as putting much of any of this on Dean, myself. But I realize that miles vary.

[catrox14]

 

I personally don't see the narrative as putting much of any of this on Dean, myself. But I realize that miles vary.

 

Twice they had Sam say it was on him in 11.01, right after Sam finds Dean and in the quote above, but then in the very same breath Sam says "It's on us".  So what does Sam really think? What does Dean really think?

 

The lack of cohesion between the tell and the show leaves me puzzled because I just don't get what they are trying to communicate here.

[catrox14]

 

Megaton said that Creation was hard work and that sacrifices had to be made. He either implicitly or explicitly said God sacrificed Amara. So I think his end game could be to save her. And I suspect he needs her willing to accept Free Will in order to save her from exile again.

 

 

 

Metatron lies.  He's lied over and over.  Everyone has taken Metatron's word on this. So I go back to what would Metatron gain by spreading a lie that Amara is God's sister? What would he get out of this?

 

He caused the angels to fall. He wanted to be God. He hates God pretty much. He mocks God even as he was/is God's Scribe. He thinks God is basically an asshole and believed he would be a better God.

 

As much as Metadouche had power as an angel, his greatest power was manipulation.  He got things done through manipulation and spells. AFAIK, losing his angel powers didn't change his status as the Scribe of God. He continues to document humanity via by being a 'Nightcrawler'.  Last we saw he was beaten badly by Cas but we don't really know what he's been up to since then. He's probably healed by now to some degree.  And I would bet there are some other angels willing to work with him if he gives them something in return, especially now that Hannah is dead, Heaven is probably falling apart again. 

 

So I think Metatron is the wild card and we should not forget about him.