Spoilers With Speculation

shang yiet · January 26, 2016

Good to see Dean bonding with guest stars again and again and again while Sam is out of the room.

Demented Daisy · January 26, 2016

Hmm. Maybe I should have added another category to my lists in the Bitterness thread....

auntvi · January 26, 2016

Plus who has the most lines. Or most minutes on screen. I'm sure we have very different estimates!

::Just joking, not asking you to tally!

SueB · January 27, 2016

Just watched the clip. That was adorable and well done.

And since I like Mildred and Dean just made her a promise? Yeah, she's dead.

Edited January 27, 2016 by SueB

catrox14 · January 27, 2016

And since I like Mildred and Dean just made her a promise? Yeah, she's dead.

She didn't have sex with Sam so her survival rate went up ten fold

Just as an aside, Jim Michaels tweeted they are filming out of order with 19 filming before 18. And in perusing the tweets there are rumors that Jensen is leaving the show??? Michaels answered but not with a flat out NO, he just said that would be news to him. I'm guessing the mention Jensen made about reading the Deadpool script fired up the rumor mill...

SueB · January 29, 2016

pictures for next week

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/01/28/supernatural-photos-s11e12-dont-you-forget-about-me/

Pardon me while I have some kittens:

- What if Alex is up to her old tricks???? Seriously, this looks vampy. And where is Alex in any of these photos. If she's not in trouble (Claire and Jody tied up), then she's either at home and completely "out" of the limelight or she's working with the vamps. I have anxiety over this.

- In the sizzler trailer there's a snippet of Alex with some people in the background. The hair of the blond in the background looks reminiscent of her Vamp Mama. IF that is a flashback to her vamp-bait days, then I think it's more likely she's involved WITH the vamps.

Oy...

Talk me off the ledge people. Jody does NOT NEED THIS SHIT.

catrox14 · January 29, 2016

I think Alex and Claire are using themselves as bait to kill vampires.

catrox14 · January 29, 2016

Also, is that a new tie for Dean? I can't remember that he's ever worn a polka dot tie. Hasn't it always been solid colors or stripes?

catrox14 · January 29, 2016

LUCIFER (AS CASTIEL) SENDS DEAN BACK IN TIME – Hoping to find a weapon powerful enough to defeat Amara (guest star Emily Swallow), Dean (Jensen Ackles) convinces “Castiel,” (Misha Collins) who is still Lucifer, to send him back in time to the last reported sighting of the Hand of God. Lucifer sees the potential in getting his hands on this weapon so goes along as Castiel and sends Dean to 1944 to the fated submarine mission that sunk the Hand of God. Meanwhile, continuing his charade with Sam (Jared Padalecki) while they wait for Dean’s return, Lucifer plans his next move. John Badham directed the episode written by Robert Berens (#1114). Original airdate 2/17/16.

Can someone please explain why the First Blade is not being thought of as a weapon against Amara???

Omegamom · January 29, 2016

Also, why Sam and Dean haven't cottoned on to the fact that it's Casifer?!

catrox14 · January 29, 2016

Also, why Sam and Dean haven't cottoned on to the fact that it's Casifer?!

RIGHT? This will be what 2 more episodes of them not figuring it out??

Omegamom · January 29, 2016

I am making a frowny face at this. They're smarter than that -- especially when it's a beloved friend. But maybe Luci is keeping his distance...

Though why he'd be worried, I haven't got a clue. It's not like they'd be able to do anything about it. And I'd think it would give Luci a never-ending boner to have Dean and Sam know Cas was possessed.

SueB · January 29, 2016

So I'm hunting down two questions: what's up w/ Crowley and when do they find out about Casifer. Since "Keep Grinding" was done before 11.16 (with Bobby) was filmed, I'm going to guess we've the data we've got goes thru 11.15

Data sources:
The link Omegamom shared last week from the Keep Grinding video: http://imgur.com/a/4hJZG
The Keep Grinding Video (voiceover in particular)

And the episode list that we know:
11.12 Don't You Forget About Me - Jody & the girls
11.13 Love Hurts - probably the dark haired girl w/ the blood sigil?
11.14 The Vessel - Navy ship, mention of Amara
11.15 Something with the wrestlers - likely a one-off

Crowley:
- A shot with him in what looks like a smoking jacket? (some sort of tapestry thing), With a chain around his body and in a cage.
- A shot with Crowley and a woman walking thru a storage area
Crowley voice-over in Keep Grinding:

It's not fair. I've clawed and I've scraped for everything I have. I change, I adapt, it's what I do.

If I was to hazard a guess, I'd say Crowley is initially put in lock-up and later released to go get something.

Amara
- There's a shot where it appears Amara is grappling with Dean. Clearly THAT needs to happen in the next five episodes. Since she's mentioned as part of The Vessel, I wonder if whatever Dean gets, Casifer sends Dean at Amara with. And it likely doesn't work. Just a guess.

Casifer
- Since we now know he's still Casifer in The Vessel, I think he's revealed in this episode as well. The episode after is likely a one-off wrestler thing. Sam & Dean's voice-over is pretty unambiguous that they've clued into the situation:

Sam: Dean, we'll get him back. We will. We just gotta...
Dean: Keep grinding. Yeah, you, me, now Cas, No matter how much it hurts, no matter how hard it gets, we gotta keep grinding. .... And that's how we're gonna win. And we're gonna win. We're gonna save Cas, we're gonna ice the Devil, and we're gonna shank the Darkness. And anyone that gets in our way, well God hell 'em.

TL; DR Bottom Line: I think everything is one-offs except The Vessel. I suspect we see Crowley in a MOTW episode and maybe The Vessel. I'm pretty sure Casifer is "outted" in The Vessel and Dean attempts and fails against Amara. I suspect the last voiceover is from the end of The Vessel.

Edited January 29, 2016 by SueB

Omegamom · January 29, 2016

And "The Vessel" is obviously a play on words. Submarine, and Cas.

catrox14 · January 29, 2016

I just wanted to point out these two shots from the next episode and The Prisoner.

The first one from next week, has Dean in black slacks, white shirt, dark tie, dark shoes and dark overcoat. His body is framed with Baby's front end and headlights as though they are wings and IMO his wardrobe is highly reminiscent of Death. The 2nd shot is from the Prisoner with the black railings surround Dean like black wings. I thought the juxtaposition and reverse of color patterns was interesting.

I don't know if it's meaningful but it kind of jumped out at me.

mQaLgrX.jpg?1

Edited January 29, 2016 by catrox14

SueB · January 29, 2016

Thanks for pointing that out. The black trench coat is new, I think. I need to go see what Sam is wearing. But I'd really like it if they start to give us SOME hint as to the implication of Death's death. I don't think it's forgotten or they wouldn't have Billy just randomly pop by. There's really no one to yell at them about it either.

ETA: It's a NICE trench coat, isn't it? I like the length. He can keep it.* Sam's is a olive/brown-ish coat. I need to see it in daylight to be sure. We get less of a view on that one.

*Hey, I watch for the plot but can appreciate the pretty.

Edited January 29, 2016 by SueB

DittyDotDot · January 29, 2016

Can someone please explain why the First Blade is not being thought of as a weapon against Amara???

The First Blade can only be used by someone carrying the Mark and since the Mark--the lock and key God created to lock up Amara--is gone, I'd think it'd be useless to them.

Also, why Sam and Dean haven't cottoned on to the fact that it's Casifer?!

I know, right? This is such bullshit, I can't even...

Aeryn13 · January 29, 2016

Also, why Sam and Dean haven't cottoned on to the fact that it's Casifer?!

So far, he hasn`t done such a bad job playing Cas. Casifer only does the shifty eyes when the Winchesters backs are turned and, more importantly, doesn`t overdo the shifty eyes. They also have limited interaction AND this is normal for them, So noone would question if "Cas" is hidden in his room or out and about. He is also in general a bit weird - seriously, the only angel who still comes across as dangerously naive and clueless at times.

And really, if I hadn`t seen how Cas says "yes", I wouldn`t believe in such stupidity myself. Neither Dean nor Sam were privvy to the self-doubt moments so they have no reason to think Cas would even have considered saying yes. Heck, do they have a reason to think angel-on-angel possession CAN work? They are not aware that they are in a show by lol!canon!Carver.

Dean was somewhat suspicious. For the interactions I have seen with Cas, I think that reaction is perfectly normal.

It`s never good to have characters not know something the audience knows because everyone will go "why don`t you fucking see that, it`s obvious?" But in this case, in the characters place, I find it believable.

If that is kept up and Cas isn`t even in say the next two episode, there is no reason they should know by now. Iffy with Claire there but stranger things have happened. Atm, he seems to follow Dean`s lead actually. Dean mentions his "bond" with Amara and Casifer files that away for "further use". Apparently Dean finds the newest deus ex machina weapon and asks "Cas" to send him back. If "Cas" does that and Lucifer keeps up the respectable job of posing as Cas, he can legitimately get away with it, without making the characters look unduly stupid IMO.

Personally, I roll my eyes way more at "The Hand of God". Seriously? A submarine from WWII is some random deus ex machina weapon they pull out of their asses? First Death brings up this Darkness as that super-old thing and noone really knows anything about her. Now, Dean finds something about a Hand of God that looks like a promising weapon. Presumably in the bunker archives.

Was Metatron the fucking first MOL? Because otherwise, they have accumulated lore they really couldn`t have. The creation timeline is wonky as it is. First God and Amara (Death???), then God creates the Leviathans, then the Angels but he had the Archangels in his fight with him against Amara. So, did Archangels come before Leviathans? Not how Death told it. Did Amara stay around for the Leviathans? Not how Death told it. Argh.

But okay, the new deus is, of all things, either a sub or on a sub - let me guess, they used wood from the tree of knowledge in its construction? - but Lucifer is one of the only people who should know for sure how Amara was dealt with last time. What was the trick God used? How was it done? He should also know if or if there isn`t a weapon powerful enough and how to get there. It is ludicrous that Dean needs to give him his clues.

Omegamom · January 29, 2016

Hey, I kinda like the "Tree of Knowledge" idea! But, really, anything man made shouldn't be worth shit against Amara.

But...the Nazis were into supernatural lore, so I could see them having some kind of something long hidden. But not on a submarine.

DittyDotDot · January 29, 2016

I only meant I thought it was bullshit they're dragging Sam and Dean figuring out it's not Cass way longer than I would like. I didn't think there were any red arrows in what Lucifer-in-a-Cass was doing that made me think Dean should've figured it out; I just wanted the cat out of the bag so we could move this storyline along. I'm thinking they're going to milk it till the cow is not only dry, but dead and decomposed.

Look at me torturing a metaphor...at least the show gives me some little pleasures. ;)

Edited January 29, 2016 by DittyDotDot

Aeryn13 · January 29, 2016

They would never reveal Casifer in a standalone so episode 14 - traditionally a mytharc ep in just about every Season - was the earliest contender I could think of. If it wasn`t that, next mytharc should be 18. Then 20-23 as a very loose three-parter.

Depending on how long the time travel part of ep 14 is, there might be another convo with Amara packed in there. Dean and her had a new scene in the promo and that couldn`t have had clips from episodes beyond 16. Unless that scene is in the beginning, prompting the time travel.

If so, the new attack plain with the Hand of God whatever will likely fail in ep 18.

AwesomO4000 · January 29, 2016

The First Blade can only be used by someone carrying the Mark and since the Mark--the lock and key God created to lock up Amara--is gone, I'd think it'd be useless to them.

So then I guess Lucifer was given the first Mark, but he doesn't have it himself anymore? For a moment, I was wondering if Casifer was looking for the blade - since Castiel hid it - but for some reason, it wasn't where it was supposed to be or something needed to get to it - such as a key or a spell - was missing, and not where Cas left it... But maybe that (i.e. Lucifer looking for the blade) might make too much continuity sense, and they'd rather just forget the blade at this point. Or maybe Lucifer knows that the blade won't work against Amara, and either has filed that away for later information or he doesn't want to get involved with the blade, because really he doesn't need it at the moment - he already can kill just about anything the blade would himself. Eventually he can create another "Cain" if he wants - it would be interesting if he offered to give it to Dean again... But I'm thinking that for whatever reason, the mark of Cain is now kaput.

Because really, Lucifer could send someone back in time to get the mark either from Dean in the past, or from Cain, and they would have that back, so I'm guessing that they'll go with the blade won't work. Or once the lock is broken, it can't be locked up just by getting the mark back... like Lucifer's cage had to be reopened using a new key rather than the way it was originally opened.

Personally, I roll my eyes way more at "The Hand of God". Seriously? A submarine from WWII is some random deus ex machina weapon they pull out of their asses? First Death brings up this Darkness as that super-old thing and noone really knows anything about her. Now, Dean finds something about a Hand of God that looks like a promising weapon. Presumably in the bunker archives.

Was Metatron the fucking first MOL? Because otherwise, they have accumulated lore they really couldn`t have. The creation timeline is wonky as it is. First God and Amara (Death???), then God creates the Leviathans, then the Angels but he had the Archangels in his fight with him against Amara. So, did Archangels come before Leviathans? Not how Death told it. Did Amara stay around for the Leviathans? Not how Death told it. Argh.

But okay, the new deus is, of all things, either a sub or on a sub - let me guess, they used wood from the tree of knowledge in its construction? - but Lucifer is one of the only people who should know for sure how Amara was dealt with last time. What was the trick God used? How was it done? He should also know if or if there isn`t a weapon powerful enough and how to get there. It is ludicrous that Dean needs to give him his clues.

My guess is that Dean finds out about the Hand of God before he knows that it's not Castiel, and Lucifer, wanting to keep up appearances, goes ahead with Dean's plan anyway, because that's what Castiel would do. He might know it won't work - or have a pretty good idea that it won't (because I think that SueB is likely right - whatever it is, it's not going to work... it'll be like the Colt against Lucifer in season 5), and Lucifer figures ehn maybe Dean will die (he doesn't know about Amara's connection also going the other way) or at least Dean will be out of his hair for a while. Or who knows, by some miracle, it just might work or make a dent in Amara's armor or something. Either way, it's a win/win for Lucifer.

Aeryn13 · January 29, 2016

He might know it won't work - or have a pretty good idea that it won't (because I think that SueB is likely right - whatever it is, it's not going to work... it'll be like the Colt against Lucifer in season 5), and Lucifer figures ehn maybe Dean will die (he doesn't know about Amara's connection also going the other way) or at least Dean will be out of his hair for a while.

The summary might not be accurate - wouldn`t be the first time - but it is clearly phrased as Lucifer thinking it would be a good idea to have that Hand of God and that is why he agrees as Cas to send Dean along. IMO Cas` natural reaction would probably be more cautious and "time travel, are you sure bla bla". Whereas Casifer might jump at the chance.

I also don`t think Casifer would risk Dean`s life. He only just got the idea in his head how Dean can be useful bait. When before he fruitlessly searched for a way to draw Amara out. Methinks Dean is the one person Casifer doesn`t want to die prematurely.

What I could see him doing is tell Sam Dean`s secret in the hopes of splitting them up, so he has Dean alone to use as bait and use the weapon against Amara. That could roughly be the plan.

I also think Amara getting woozy after branding Cas with her message will somehow play a role later on. She seemed fine and back to health again after eating Ambriel`s grace. Is there something more durable about Cas` vessel now that God himself restored it roughly a gazillion times?

catrox14 · January 29, 2016

Okay something went squirelly. Bringing my reply here from the episode thread.

I want to know if Casifer drove back to the Bunker or teleported. Like I said before, Dean wouldn't have been surprised that Cas was in the bunker if Dean had seen his car either in front or in the garage. If the car is neither place, then Lucifer teleported him and Cas back to the bunker and that should be the real clue that Dean thinks logically about.

I think Jensen played this very smartly with Dean looking at his left shoulder as he felt Cas touch him with his back turned but then when he turned around Dean and realized it wasn't in that same familiar spot, he kind of side-eyed Cas but I think because Dean was frustrated and angry with Cas about the bunker being a mess and with not hearing from him in days and being freaked about Amara's hold on him, it didn't FULLY register but he does think something is off. I also think Dean was sizing him up as to why he didn't have on his trenchcoat which he next to never takes off.

Another thought I had is that since apparently he still has a connection with Amara because of the Mark, maybe being touched by Lucifer who also bore the Mark on the arm that had the Mark is what Dean was side-eying. Maybe Dean didn't totally freak out about Cas touching the wrong shoulder because of the familiarity/connected feeling from the Mark.

****************************************************************

I was thinking back to Form and Void with the preacher in the video with the Right Hand/Left Hand thing that it was foreshadowing a fight for Dean's soul between Amara and Lucifer against Cas. But interestingly when I went back to refresh myself on the dialogue:

VIDEO: H-a-t-e. It was with this left hand that old brother Cain struck the blow that laid his brother low. L-o-v-e. You see these fingers? They're arched. These fingers has veins that run straight to the soul of man. The right hand, friends -- the hand of love. Now watch, and I'll show you the story of life. These fingers, dear hearts, is always a-warrin' and a-tuggin', one against the other. Now watch 'em. Old brother left hand -- left hand hates a-fightin'. It looks like love's a goner. But wait a minute. Wait a minute. Hot dog! Love's a-winnin'. Yes, siree. It's love that won. And old left-hand hate is down for the count.

I don't know what to think if that was supposed to be foreshadowing the battle between Lucifer and/or The Darkness and Cas for Dean? The Mark was on Dean's right arm. The Mark is on Amara's left clavicle area. Cas' handprint was on Dean's left shoulder. If that is foreshadowing that Dean goes dark again...hmmmm.

But what if it's the mirror image so it's Lucifer touching Dean's right shoulder with his left hand (left hand losing) and it's Cas' right hand on Dean's left shoulder then the right hand is love and is winning? Yes?

Just my lack of sleep Friday morning thinky thoughts to avoid other more important thinky thoughts.

ETA: More thinky thoughts....

Since Dean's Mark was on his right arm and held the First Blade in his right hand, IMO in retrospect maybe he was never going to ever kill Sam because it wasn't his left hand :).

Also, where did the Mark go?? It couldn't have just vanished. Is it back with God? Or Lucifer? Or Cain wherever he is? Can Amara pass the Mark to Dean if she wanted without his permission?

I have wondered if whatever made Dean say "What was that" after Amara kissed him was actually a vision of a possible future and that it's Dean bound to Amara forever in the Void. Like she offers to go away as long as Dean is bound to her for eternity.

My wild ass specs for the day for the season finale Butch and Sundance edition:

The end is the beginning. Dean and Amara facing off in the Darkness vortex.

The Darkness has now enveloped the Earth. She is winning and destroying humanity. God is still nowhere to be found. The battle takes place back at the restaurant location because they figure they have to put her back from whence she came.

Dean offers to become one with her as long as she stops killing humans. She agrees and to make their bond permanent Amara passes the Mark to Dean again. Dean asks to say goodbye to Sam one last time and they hug it out. Dean passes the Mark to Sam during the hug making them the lock and key again. It puts the Darkness back to her cage.

Billie shows up to send them into the Empty if they die, but then Death walks out of the restaurant because he was never really dead and sends them into Outer Space together.

Dissolve to black ....into the front bumper of Baby...safely tucked away in the Bunker....waiting...fade to black.....credits.

Edited January 29, 2016 by catrox14

catrox14 · January 29, 2016

never mind. I misread.

Edited January 29, 2016 by catrox14

AwesomO4000 · January 29, 2016

The summary might not be accurate - wouldn`t be the first time - but it is clearly phrased as Lucifer thinking it would be a good idea to have that Hand of God and that is why he agrees as Cas to send Dean along. IMO Cas` natural reaction would probably be more cautious and "time travel, are you sure bla bla". Whereas Casifer might jump at the chance.

I also don`t think Casifer would risk Dean`s life. He only just got the idea in his head how Dean can be useful bait. When before he fruitlessly searched for a way to draw Amara out. Methinks Dean is the one person Casifer doesn`t want to die prematurely.

What I could see him doing is tell Sam Dean`s secret in the hopes of splitting them up, so he has Dean alone to use as bait and use the weapon against Amara. That could roughly be the plan.

All good points, though if they stick to canon: "I'll just bring you back to life." Though he'd have to do it quickly so Billie can't get Dean's soul... the question is, does Lucifer know about that? I can't remember if Dean or Sam told Castiel or not. I know Sam told Dean - offscreen somewhere - but I'm not sure if Castiel was present or not. And if Lucifer does find out, maybe he might go after Billie and/or any other reapers with the plan to get rid of Dean... at least until he gets rid of Amara.

And hmm, this might be an argument he might give for Dean taking the mark again - Dean staying alive and/or not "dispersed" into nothing until Amara can be defeated. I also don't think Amara is going to allow Dean to die either. She seems to want him alive and well. I wonder if when Lucifer finds this out, if and/or how he'll use that to his advantage.

I also think Amara getting woozy after branding Cas with her message will somehow play a role later on. She seemed fine and back to health again after eating Ambriel`s grace. Is there something more durable about Cas` vessel now that God himself restored it roughly a gazillion times?

Oh, I'm sure. At least it's likely a more durable vessel than Sam now that Cas has his grace back. When Castiel showed up all willing, Lucifer probably thought he hit the jackpot there. Though the question will be, how willing will Castiel remain and once he isn't, will he be able to get Lucifer out more easily. Factors affecting this might be 1) Castiel's gullibility - is Cas going to be more willing to buy Lucifer's crap than Sam was 2) Lucifer doesn't have any "issues"* this time. Big brother is still in the cage, and with Rowena dead and supposedly no way to get it open again, Lucifer thinks he's the only game in town. An ego-fed Lucifer isn't going to have as many chinks in his armor. 3) Last time, as Lucifer got stronger, the vessel had to get stronger, too to hold him... Nick having to drink demon blood and Sam the same in the end. With Castiel as his vessel, Lucifer might not have to worry about that which could be a big advantage for Lucifer.

* In my head, I mostly hear this word in Spike's friend Clem's (the floppy-eared demon from Buffy) voice.

Edited January 29, 2016 by AwesomO4000

catrox14 · January 29, 2016

So now that Crowley has his mommy issues resolved that his mother really did love him in spite of herself....

what is his role? His motivation? Is he just going to go back to being a crossroads demon? Will he bring Rowena back to life?

DittyDotDot · January 29, 2016

Oh, I'm thinking he's going to be Lucifer's punching bag for his role in stopping the first apocalypse.

Demented Daisy · January 30, 2016

Hey, is the Spear of Destiny still in the bunker?

catrox14 · January 30, 2016

According to the SuperWiki it's still there.

MysteryGuest · January 30, 2016

The first portion of the season was spent discussing just how strangely Cas is behaving, and how he's still recovering from whatever spell Rowena had put on him, so I'm not surprised at all that Sam and Dean don't suspect a Lucifer possession. It's just Cas still acting strangely. I think they will continue to be clueless for a few more episodes, and will then spend the rest of the season trying to rescue Cas and dispose of Amara. We'll see if any of that carries over to next season...if there is a next season.

SueB · January 30, 2016

Clem reference! Woot!

That is all.

NoWillToResist · February 1, 2016

So, if Bobby's back and Jim has confirmed that Jensen cries in the scene, perhaps that's the shot of a broken-looking Dean in the Keep Grinding promo video.

I want to know if "Cas" will be in (or mentioned) in the Claire episode. Because to me, Cas should at least get a mention if there's any worry about his pseudo-daughter. Based on the ep descriptions, it sounds like the boys will still not know about Casifer in this ep, so I am damned curious as to how that plays out. I mean, Claire calls them for help and "Cas" is...what? Too busy to help? The only excuse that wouldn't be an immediate clue that Cas is not ok would be if the boys can't reach him for some reason and decide to help her without him. So I'm interested in how will be addressed...

catrox14 · February 1, 2016

JFC, Jensen. My gods....white t-shirt, jeans and boots..../dead

Myrelle · February 1, 2016

I love him in white... *Swooooooooooooooooooooons*...

SueB · February 2, 2016

*sigh*

ETA: Hmmm... Jim said to someone last week they ARE filming out of order so this is either EP17 or EP18 but I don't know for sure.

Edited February 2, 2016 by SueB

catrox14 · February 2, 2016

Sooo.... I was just watching 'Do You Believe in Miracles" and gods fucking dammit, I gasped and cried all over again seeing Dean stabbed in the heart by that POS Metatron and the look on his face....I just ..it's still almost unbearable. I became even more sad knowing all that's happened to him since then. And the literal worst part...is more and more I believe that our Dean Winchester 1.0...died right then and there, like really and truly died. To me he's never been the same even after being cured with the blood ritual. /wipes eyes in between typing....

I think that's why I've been getting this strange pod!Dean feeling in s11 even without the Mark.

I've always wanted to know exactly what happened to Dean's soul when he was killed by Metatron. All we know is that Dean's soul was twisted in some way. Yet even as a demon he didn't go full on horrible terrible demon. He was cured with the blood ritual yet still had the Mark which was still giving him blood lust still, he felt connected to the Book of the Damned and had inordinate strength. Through all that though the Mark was keeping him alive and if he died, he'd be a demon again.

So theoretically he should have dropped dead as soon as Rowena removed the Mark, but that didn't happen nor did he revert to demon status. So why?

We now know that Amara eats souls and keeps them in her so they can live on forever. Since Amara was theoretically already connected to Dean because of the Mark, maybe part of his soul went into her. Maybe that's why he was not inclined to be the literal worst and most powerful demon in the universe because she has some of his human and demon soul inside her.

My theory is that the part of his soul that's in Amara is reaching out to the part of his soul that he still has; that it wants to be joined again to make Dean whole once more. That's the "attraction". He's not attracted to Amara but his own soul even though it's still partly demon and partly human inside her.

Maybe that's why Amara couldn't/didn't suck out the rest of his soul because she already had part of it and she doesn't understand why he doesn't want to be joined when that would make his soul whole again inside her. Dean might have freaked out when she kissed him because he felt the demon part of his soul reaching out to his current partial soul but he doesn't understand at all why he's attracted to her.

I dunno, it's probably totally wrong but it would explain a crap load of things for me. And I like the idea that it's Dean trying to fix himself.

Edited February 2, 2016 by catrox14

Diane · February 3, 2016

Sooo.... I was just watching 'Do You Believe in Miracles" and gods fucking dammit, I gasped and cried all over again seeing Dean stabbed in the heart by that POS Metatron and the look on his face....I just ..it's still almost unbearable. I became even more sad knowing all that's happened to him since then. And the literal worst part...is more and more I believe that our Dean Winchester 1.0...died right then and there, like really and truly died. To me he's never been the same even after being cured with the blood ritual. /wipes eyes in between typing....

I think that's why I've been getting this strange pod!Dean feeling in s11 even without the Mark.

I've always wanted to know exactly what happened to Dean's soul when he was killed by Metatron. All we know is that Dean's soul was twisted in some way. Yet even as a demon he didn't go full on horrible terrible demon. He was cured with the blood ritual yet still had the Mark which was still giving him blood lust still, he felt connected to the Book of the Damned and had inordinate strength. Through all that though the Mark was keeping him alive and if he died, he'd be a demon again.

So theoretically he should have dropped dead as soon as Rowena removed the Mark, but that didn't happen nor did he revert to demon status. So why?

We now know that Amara eats souls and keeps them in her so they can live on forever. Since Amara was theoretically already connected to Dean because of the Mark, maybe part of his soul went into her. Maybe that's why he was not inclined to be the literal worst and most powerful demon in the universe because she has some of his human and demon soul inside her.

My theory is that the part of his soul that's in Amara is reaching out to the part of his soul that he still has; that it wants to be joined again to make Dean whole once more. That's the "attraction". He's not attracted to Amara but his own soul even though it's still partly demon and partly human inside her.

Maybe that's why Amara couldn't/didn't suck out the rest of his soul because she already had part of it and she doesn't understand why he doesn't want to be joined when that would make his soul whole again inside her. Dean might have freaked out when she kissed him because he felt the demon part of his soul reaching out to his current partial soul but he doesn't understand at all why he's attracted to her.

I dunno, it's probably totally wrong but it would explain a crap load of things for me. And I like the idea that it's Dean trying to fix himself.

I think you are giving them way, way, way to much credit. No way did they give it that much thought and this comes from someone who loved every season and does not complain. I just like it for what it is, but I can't believe that they writing team would have come up with something like that.

catrox14 · February 3, 2016

I think you are giving them way, way, way to much credit. No way did they give it that much thought and this comes from someone who loved every season and does not complain. I just like it for what it is, but I can't believe that they writing team would have come up with something like that.

They came up with Dark Charlie/Light Charlie and she had to put herself back together again with the help of Dean and Sam. It's a similar idea.

AwesomO4000 · February 3, 2016

I've always wanted to know exactly what happened to Dean's soul when he was killed by Metatron. All we know is that Dean's soul was twisted in some way. Yet even as a demon he didn't go full on horrible terrible demon. He was cured with the blood ritual yet still had the Mark which was still giving him blood lust still, he felt connected to the Book of the Damned and had inordinate strength. Through all that though the Mark was keeping him alive and if he died, he'd be a demon again.

So theoretically he should have dropped dead as soon as Rowena removed the Mark, but that didn't happen nor did he revert to demon status. So why?

I think it's because Dean was not a regular demon. He was a knight of hell, and as such, he could heal himself, not just keep his body animated like a regular demon does. I think it's one of the reasons they showed Dean healing himself multiple times without even a scar left behind. Regular demons can't do that. If they have an injury that could heal on it's own, it will, but if the body can't heal something - like say there is a bullet wound or an incurable disease - as soon as the demon is no longer animating it, that wound or disease becomes fatal.

But Dean wasn't just animating his mortally wounded body. The mark + being a demon gave him the power to actually heal his body before he "woke up" - like how an angel would do it... which makes sense in a way, because the mark came from Lucifer, who is an angel, and the mark wouldn't want a wounded or unusable body to house it, and since knights of hell are in their bodies, I don't know if they could smoke out and find another host body. Abaddon was able to do the same thing in terms of healing herself. She was even able to survive being beheaded and put her body back together. And also being burned up to a crisp and still healing herself. A regular demon could not do those things. They'd have to smoke out and find another host body.

MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND · February 3, 2016

Sooo.... I was just watching 'Do You Believe in Miracles" and gods fucking dammit, I gasped and cried all over again seeing Dean stabbed in the heart by that POS Metatron and the look on his face....I just ..it's still almost unbearable. I became even more sad knowing all that's happened to him since then. And the literal worst part...is more and more I believe that our Dean Winchester 1.0...died right then and there, like really and truly died. To me he's never been the same even after being cured with the blood ritual. /wipes eyes in between typing....

I think that's why I've been getting this strange pod!Dean feeling in s11 even without the Mark.

I've always wanted to know exactly what happened to Dean's soul when he was killed by Metatron. All we know is that Dean's soul was twisted in some way. Yet even as a demon he didn't go full on horrible terrible demon. He was cured with the blood ritual yet still had the Mark which was still giving him blood lust still, he felt connected to the Book of the Damned and had inordinate strength. Through all that though the Mark was keeping him alive and if he died, he'd be a demon again.

So theoretically he should have dropped dead as soon as Rowena removed the Mark, but that didn't happen nor did he revert to demon status. So why?

We now know that Amara eats souls and keeps them in her so they can live on forever. Since Amara was theoretically already connected to Dean because of the Mark, maybe part of his soul went into her. Maybe that's why he was not inclined to be the literal worst and most powerful demon in the universe because she has some of his human and demon soul inside her.

My theory is that the part of his soul that's in Amara is reaching out to the part of his soul that he still has; that it wants to be joined again to make Dean whole once more. That's the "attraction". He's not attracted to Amara but his own soul even though it's still partly demon and partly human inside her.

Maybe that's why Amara couldn't/didn't suck out the rest of his soul because she already had part of it and she doesn't understand why he doesn't want to be joined when that would make his soul whole again inside her. Dean might have freaked out when she kissed him because he felt the demon part of his soul reaching out to his current partial soul but he doesn't understand at all why he's attracted to her.

I dunno, it's probably totally wrong but it would explain a crap load of things for me. And I like the idea that it's Dean trying to fix himself.

The way Jensen acts that death scene is just so heartbreaking. The close up after he is stabbed-the sadness in his face...my heart hurts!

I love your head canon about Deans soul! It works for me-it explains the stupid attraction at least in a way that isn't icky.

SueB · February 3, 2016

I'm still on the "God's boobytrap" theory. My theory is that the fart-cloud Zombies were the first line of defense. A connection between Darkness and the Mark is another. Don't forget God gave it to Lucifer Morningstar. His most trusted Archangel. And Casifer DID know that Dean and Amara were connected. Now it could have been from Cas' memories of what Dean said at the beginning of the year. Or it could have been something God said to Lucifer. He did go straight to "attraction" as the reason Dean couldn't kill Amara. Why not "fear"? When facing someone of God-class strength, that's a reasonable response, even for Dean.

I think part of the Casifer plot is to get intel on the connection between Amara and Dean.

Aeryn13 · February 3, 2016

In a better-written show I would expect the mytharc to be explained more and make more logical sense but honestly, here, I think there will be a whole lot of handwaving, some deus ex-machina-ing and a healthy dose of WTF-ing in the end. All my other problems with the show aside, I didn`t think a single storyline in the last few years really holds together. The ironic thing is, nearly all of those storylines were potentially very interesting ones. At least to me. Which, I could overlook the story letdowns but the stuff that would make me overlook it usually in TV-shows is the stuff I really have problems with. Sigh.

I would still put down greater odds on God not showing up physically than him coming in at the end. At least not to help in the fight. Maybe for a cameo narration of "bla bla" that makes it seem like it was a plan or a test or something and not just a flimsy excuse for his `"go away, don`t bother me" attitude. Which, fine if someone has such an attitude but if it walks like a douche and talks like a douche...

NoWillToResist · February 3, 2016

We now know that Amara eats souls and keeps them in her so they can live on forever. Since Amara was theoretically already connected to Dean because of the Mark, maybe part of his soul went into her. Maybe that's why he was not inclined to be the literal worst and most powerful demon in the universe because she has some of his human and demon soul inside her.

My theory is that the part of his soul that's in Amara is reaching out to the part of his soul that he still has; that it wants to be joined again to make Dean whole once more. That's the "attraction". He's not attracted to Amara but his own soul even though it's still partly demon and partly human inside her.

I like this theory. Not sure that's where they're taking this but it would make me so much more comfortable about the whole Dean/Amara thing if the pull has nothing at all to do with *her*. Could an angel see the souls she's consumed? Would be cool if Casifer is how we find this out...

catrox14 · February 3, 2016

I like this theory. Not sure that's where they're taking this but it would make me so much more comfortable about the whole Dean/Amara thing if the pull has nothing at all to do with *her*. Could an angel see the souls she's consumed? Would be cool if Casifer is how we find this out...

I'm wondering why Amara was sickly and woozy after she branded Cas with her warning/promise.

NoWillToResist · February 3, 2016

I'm wondering why Amara was sickly and woozy after she branded Cas with her warning/promise.

I've obviously read too much fanfiction because I have always loved the idea that when Cas pulled Dean from hell, a little of Dean's soul went into Cas and a little of Cas' grace went into Dean. :) I've read many theories that Cas' resurrections are not due to God but that little shred of grace in Dean that still exists.

If Amara has some of Dean's soul and if Cas does indeed have a sliver of Dean's soul mixed in with angel grace, perhaps the bit of Dean inside Amara was drawn to Cas and that inner conflict drained her a bit...

Thus endeth the wank... ;)

catrox14 · February 3, 2016

Ohhh...I like that head!canon NoWillToResist

Hmm....

I've been wondering a couple of things.

1) Why Lucifer was willing to accept Cas as his vessel rather than just straight up killing Cas and Dean and taking Sam anyway.

2) How the Mark would tie Lucifer and Amara post her release. I mean it should since it's affecting Dean too.

Maybe there is a longer game here with Lucifer and Amara. Yes he locked her away but maybe he never really wanted to do that. Maybe he was forced to comply with God, Michael, Gabriel and the other archangels. I wonder if the I AM COMING message was for Lucifer as a promise rather than a threat.

Oh I like where this is going, NoWillToResist...

Edited February 3, 2016 by catrox14

AwesomO4000 · February 3, 2016

1) Why Lucifer was willing to accept Cas as his vessel rather than just straight up killing Cas and Dean and taking Sam anyway.

I'm thinking that with Cas in there as added insurance, that Catsiel is a much more stable vessel than Dean is. As I theorized somewhere else, he might not even have to drink demon blood while using Castiel which he theoretically might've had to do once he started getting stronger while using Sam. I'm not even sure if Sam still has even Azazel's blood taint anymore - especially after the trials - so Sam may not even be Lucifer's "perfect vessel" anymore.

catrox14 · February 3, 2016

The way Jensen acts that death scene is just so heartbreaking. The close up after he is stabbed-the sadness in his face...my heart hurts!

Oh gods. That's worst part. The stabbing was bad enough, but yes the sadness was...oh Jensen. Man, that man needs a damn Emmy nom already. Gah.

Omegamom · February 3, 2016

Carver talks

major characters R a i the bac half of them eaten one <-- That's what happens to my posts when I'm typing them here. Translated as...

Carver talks major character arcs in the back half of the season:

http://www.imdb.com/imdbpicks/supernatural-character-arcs/ls033137049?ref_=hm_pks_sn_sm&pf_rd_m=A2FGELUUNOQJNL&pf_rd_p=2400703542&pf_rd_r=1MRZZ3NS80BFQ25CDW7A&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_t=15061&pf_rd_i=homepage

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