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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

WUUUTTT? Dee Wallace is going to be in the episode airing January 27. Dee Wallace was the mom in E.T.

 

Dee Wallace OFFICIAL ‏@Dee_Wallace

Yes girls! They're as gorgeous (& as nice) as ya think they are! Episode January 27! @cw_spn @JensenAckles @jarpad

 

 

CVvII_mUwAARwzJ.jpg

Edited by catrox14
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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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7kstar

7kstar

That's weird. I mean Rowena is already a human. She just happens to be a witch that's lived for 300 years. 

 

 

 

What I really hope is that somehow she belongs to an ancient cult of The Darkness/Amara worshippers and that her goal was releasing the Darkness so that Amara could rebuild humanity in HER image.  But what maybe she didn't count on was Dean still being bound to Amara and that maybe she LITERALLY cannot, as in not having the ability to kill Dean now, even with the Mark gone and she literally CANNOT kill Sam because Dean will kill her if she does. Rowena is nothing if not self-centered and interested in her own continuing survival.  

Well one problem with this theory, I like it but it makes sense.  Since when does Carver do that?  But maybe this is one time that even Carver can connect the dots...will wait to see if you've got it.

 

Checking further I think this is the episode that has an older woman hitting on Dean. I'm thinking she's the older woman?

Man, I hope they don't mess this up.  My last experience with this Actress is really special and I don't want SPN messing it up by having her play a stupid character that we wish had never been on this show. 

 

Yes I get that older women lust after Jensen / Dean...but I don't want to cringe watch like I do with some of the things they've done with Sam.    She is a talented actress, so maybe she can save it...but I hope she doesn't have to save it.    Please don't let it be the terrible duo writing the ep.

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SueB

SueB

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If the HAVE to do that storyline, I'm glad she looks like Dee Wallace.

 

I'm wondering if it's an Alzheimer's situation and she doesn't remember her age or who she is chasing. 

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

If the HAVE to do that storyline, I'm glad she looks like Dee Wallace.

 

I'm wondering if it's an Alzheimer's situation and she doesn't remember her age or who she is chasing. 

 

Oof, the only way that would work for me is if maybe she thinks Dean is her husband or boyfriend.  But I would still be uncomfortable if that were the case unless it's not comedic.   I don't want them making light of dementia :(. 

 

They did do the Hunter Heroici thing with Mike Farrell being stuck in Looney Toon Town in his mind...so maybe it's something like that? 

 

I'm also wondering could this be Amara aged past her similar age to Dean since it will be after 11.10?

 

According to IMDB it's written by Robbie Thompson...so all bets are off now LOL

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

So, thinking more Sam about going to Lucifer's cage.

 

Assuming this is played straight, I can't really figure out what Sam has to gain by going to see Lucifer aside from believing the visions are from God and satisfying his morbid curiosity or that he's convinced himself or HAS BEEN convinced by someone else that Lucifer is going to help put Amara back on lock-down. Surely Lucifer's spots haven't changed in his bitterness and jealousy over humanity. So assuming he's still the literal worst then he's going to want something in exchange and the only thing he's desperately ever wanted was for Sam to say yes.

 

Even though the boys averted the Apocalypse, Lucifer and Michael are alive and Sam and Dean are still Lucifer's and Michael's respective True Vessels (Adam was just a bailout option which doesn't change Dean's status as The Michael Sword IMO) So doesn't that leave room for the Apocalypse to start if Sam says yes for any reason?

 

Of course, it's all complicated by the info dump from Death that  Amara's influence caused Lucifer to turn against humanity, IIRC, s  if that's the case, wouldn't Lucifer want to HELP Amara in her fight to stay out of lock-down? Maybe Lucifer is going to want out to actually help Amara but Sam is convinced it would be to stop Amara and either way, Lucifer is going to want Sam's meatsuit to do it. If Lucifer DOESN'T make that kind of demand, well then he'll have lost all teeth as the Biggest Bad that Ever Badded.

 

All of which takes me to Dean's fears.

 

Dean's shutting it down unequivocally could be more about the his resurfacing terror that he's back to "Kill Sammy" to save the world. Coupled with Amara's influence he's going to have a real problem because it seemed like she was fine with killing Sam but didn't for "reasons". Maybe Michael approaches Dean to use him as his True Vessel to fight Lucifer!Sam's  meatsuit. Or Sam comes back from seeing Lucifer and tells Dean they both have to say yes to stop Amara and it's Lucifer and Michael that are working together vs Sam and Dean....

 

Now for my Wild Ass Spec.

 

As y'all know, I think things are weird this season, pod!Dean and pod!Sam for lack of better word so I've been wondering if Sam and/or Dean have not actually been in the Cage this whole time and that Lucifer and Michael had already taken the meat suits. Or Sam at least all because they were trying to either protect the boys or maybe the swap happaned when the Darkness was released. Maybe that is what all the freaking out in the Cage was about because it was really Sam and Dean that were shoved in there.  Again, just the musings of a madwoman here
I dunno.

 

I've noticed that occasionally this season when Dean wakes up from unconsciousness which has happened a LOT this season,  he's looking to the side so much that you almost can't see his eyes, especially in this last episode when a teenager got the drop on him. I dunno, it's as though  he's looking AT or FOR something out of the corner of his eye. Or maybe that he's trying to remember something. And occasionally his face looks different, like he's there but he's not. And other times he looks like the MoC!Dean like he did in his confrontation with Rowena when she commented on his eyes being so burdened.  I wish I could articulate it better.

 

 

As for Sam, I have re-watched that opening sequence a stupid number of times because I'm looking for clues( which might not be there but I think they are). 

 

Sam opens the hood to disconnect this RED WIRE to the horn (which BTW looked like it actually was attached to the windshield washer container, the radiator overflow....or nothing at all. And why is the horn blaring when nothing else happened to the car other than being stuck in a giant p(l)othole.  In between, opening and closing the hood, we get the flashback...but IMO I swear to Gods, Sam went from being visibly freaked out and confused to having a weirdly calm demeanor in between opening the hood, disconnecting the battery and closing the hood, which was all of like SECONDS. Unless it wasn't.

 

Then we have Sam somehow just miraculously walking a MILE in the right direction to find Dean asleep in the yellow, purple and reddish flower like Dean is Sleeping Beauty or Dorothy..That's always been odd to me

 

Sam's dialogue was just as weird as Dean's in the hospital.

 

You remember NONE of this"....what? Sam would say, "Dude, you don't remember anything?" IMO . He just felt off. Just like Dean at times. 

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catrox14

catrox14

Welp I am becoming more and more convinced Cas is going to die. He might be in future episodes but don't think it will be actual!Cas.

I think I should have bought more whiskey.

And speaking of whiskey... We haven't seen Dean eat or drink nearly at all this season and he only drank at the end of Our Little World and talked to the ghoulpire about steak and was in the roadhouse but we didn't see it. He wondered if Amara knows what a cheeseburger is(which why does Dean even care about that)? Am I forgetting something? Doesn't that seem peculiar?

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Omegamom

Omegamom

Minor thing, but it looks like they're going to use those funky camera angles on close-ups again, like they did in the episode where as for his Grace back from Metadouche. For the record: I HATE THOSE CAMERA ANGLES!!! Ahem. They make everyone's face look weird and ugly.

And, yeah, I think we're going to get Casifer in place of Samifer. Or else Cas dies trying to prevent Samifer.

Or, worse, Cas just ferries the boys about, and doesn't play any meaningful role at all. ::insert big frowny face here::

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Of course, it's all complicated by the info dump from Death that  Amara's influence caused Lucifer to turn against humanity, IIRC, s  if that's the case, wouldn't Lucifer want to HELP Amara in her fight to stay out of lock-down? Maybe Lucifer is going to want out to actually help Amara but Sam is convinced it would be to stop Amara and either way, Lucifer is going to want Sam's meatsuit to do it. If Lucifer DOESN'T make that kind of demand, well then he'll have lost all teeth as the Biggest Bad that Ever Badded.

 

I don't know. I don't think Lucifer would want to help Amara. Her mark poisoned him... or at least that's what Lucfer would say. He loves to blame everyone else for his problems. Besides, I don't think Lucifer's ego can be forgotten. In my opinion, he'd be more likely to try to help defeat Amara... just so he could destroy the world himself. For Lucfer, it's not the destroying the world part that he necessarily wants - in which case he would help Amara - it's that he would be doing it. Lucifer is all about being the egomaniac. If he's not the center of attention, he's not happy, so I can't see him helping Amara so that she could be the center of attention.

 

I tend to think of Lucifer like that kid from that Twilight Zone episode who sends people to the corn field when he gets upset. He doesn't seem all that scary, but in some ways, he really really is, because his motives are so fickle.

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SueB

SueB

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What are the odds that the answer to containing the Darkness is in the Book of the Damned?

I originally thought the Darkness was who the crazy nun was getting the intel from to fill out the pages.  That's just my headcanon but IF that were true, I'd be surprised if the answer was there.

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catrox14

catrox14

What are the odds that the answer to containing the Darkness is in the Book of the Damned?

 

 

I was thinking that but then I thought also what if it's like The Darkness' Bible since it turns out the it contained the spell to remove the Mark which allowed the Darkness to be freed. 

 

Since the BotD has pages made from a nun's skin it seems like we need some kind of flashback to who that nun was exactly and why she wrote it.

 

Did she ever possess the Mark?

 

Did she do it of her own accord because she worshipped the Darkness? Or did the Darkness  compel her to write the book with her own skin against her will?

 

Did she know that the Darkness was bad news and wrote the spells to try and save the world from the Darkness? Was she imprisoned and had no other way to write this all down?

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

(edited)

According to the wiki, episode 11 is titled Into the Mystic.  They didn't offer any corroborating info, though.  Anyone seen this somewhere else?

 

ETA  Episode 11 was supposed to be The Sound of Silence.  I wonder if they've changed the name or rearranged episodes?  Seems unlikely they would shuffle in the middle of the season, so why change the name, I wonder....

Edited by Demented Daisy
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

So I just had a random thought.

 

What if God isn't answering Amara's pleadings or human prayers because he's dead. What if Amara being freed erased God from existence but no one senses it or is aware of it since there is still a God-energy in the universe in the form of Amara?

 

Which makes me wonder what entities would be able to sense or detect God's death .

 

I would think archangels and the Horsemen but maybe not lower level angels like Cas or Hannah (RIP) because they have never actually met God.

 

The Archangels:

--Metatron might sense it if he still had his grace but he doesn't so maybe he can't now

 

--Gabriel is dead so far as I know or at least him being truly alive has not been confirmed in the show like 100% so I'm taking him out of the equation for now.

 

--We know that there was a freak out in the Cage as reported by Crowley's minions and the occupants are Michael and Lucifer (Adam's meatsuit is irrelevant because he's not an archangel)

 

--Lucifer might very well sense that God has gone missing or is dead but he might be HIGHLY disinclined to report that for his own reasons so he can get his meatsuit to let him out of the Cage.

 

--Michael knowing makes sense but if he is still 100% trapped in the Cage and his side of the Cage wasn't broken then maybe he's the one freaking out but can't actually send any messages to anyone.

 

The Horsemen:

 

-- Pestilence, War and Famine don't have their rings anymore so they are no longer powerful and may not have any connection to God that way anymore.

 

--Death would definitely know if God was dead but since Death is dead, well he wouldn't.  Where is Death's ring? Did it just disintegrate when Dean killed him? Or did it fall to the  floor of the restaurant in Nebraska where the Darkness was released and is still there? Maybe Dean should consider a quick trip back there to look for it or send Cas.  Maybe Billie the Reaper found it.

 

Other thoughts:

What if God has gone into hiding because he has to plan how to deal with Amara's presence in the universe now?  What if Death isn't really dead and gave Dean a fake scythe to kill him with so that he could go into hiding somewhere? Heck what if he and God are in hiding together to figure out what to do?

 

Just my random weekend musings.

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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Fun musings. I really wish we knew where Joshua was.

In other news, this time straight outta Twitter (apologies), Misha couldn't participate in a (I think Sat) Jason Mann Stage It because he was filming. It could have been Friday night or early Sat. Not sure. And Mark Shepard arrived back in Vancouver today. Finally, J2 went skiing just north of Vancouver this weekend. My point being it looks like all four cast members in town for what I suspect is the last week of filming before hiatus. Could be a myth arc episode. Last year they started filming Execution Song just before Christmas and finished after.

So, reviewing bits and bobs:

- Jodi, Claire, Alex in an Ep filming around thanksgiving.

- Dee Wallace MAYBE filming in the two weeks after that (Misha in Brazil during this time)

- then starting a myth arc??

But there's an issue with this timeline....would they really be cutting it that close with EP11 if that's the one with Dee Wallace?

Thoughts?

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catrox14

catrox14

Hmmm hard to say. They might be filming out of order like they did with Felicia Day to accommodate an actor's schedule.  I think they start filming new episodes on Tuesdays...is that correct which seems tight for a new episode, so maybe they are finishing an episode this week before the hiatus starts on Dec 19? 

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catrox14

catrox14

 

I would suspect that Joshua would know if he survived The Fall and the subsequent Angel Wars.

 

Oh I forgot about Joshua!  I wonder though if Joshua might also not realize since he said God mostly talks to him.  Hmmmm.....where is Joshua

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

I'm telling ya... I think all this "O Brother Where Art Thou" is leading us down the God doesn't care plan and ...

F8ZomSY.gif

 

He's deliberately hanging back in order to bring Amara around.  Maybe he couldn't convince her pre-creation on the value of Free Will. But he's going to throw all of Creation at her to get her to fall in love with it --- and then maybe his arguments will sway her.  But he's avoiding the mano-a-mano fight until she's ready to listen.

Edited by SueB
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

Didn`t Jared already spoil that God may be a hindrance of some sort?

 

There is a shot of Amara waking up in some kind of field/forest environment in the trailer. I believe it is possible that her brother transported her there to protect her from the smite wave. 

 

He might do his usual God-thing and stay completely out of things other than not allowing her destruction.

Edited by Aeryn13
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

That would be a little crappy of Him if He doesn't help. (In my opinion anyway)

 

Especially since it's a minor miracle that all of the angels got together on something, so if this returns them to infighting because they didn't suceed and/or a bunch of them (or people) get killed as a result that would be kinda crappy. He'd be quashing free will in the angels by taking away their choice to work together to get rid of Amara.

 

So why would He do that? If it's because He felt sorry for Amara, would it be fair to let her keep causing havoc, especially if He's not coming back to make things right? Would it be up to everyone else to reform Amara? If it's because He wouldn't want the angels to be able to do what he couldn't (destroy Amara) that would be kinda jerky, too - as would locking her up again - probably alone - for more millenia without giving her a choice if that's what she wants (rather than being destroyed). Amara might find her destruction more preferable to being locked up again.

 

I'm kinda hoping that God didn't save her, mostly for those reasons. I'd rather see Amara having done it hersef... if she can transport Dean, she should be able to transport herself.

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rue721

rue721

(edited)

Maybe God is trying to get Amara into the Cage. That's more likely to be able to hold her than anything else that's in Creation right now.

 

Amara is drawn to Dean. It's likely that she would feel even more drawn to Lucifer (since, like Dean, Lucifer has had the Mark. Plus, Lucifer has had an even closer and more acrimonious relationship with God, and he doesn't have a soul for her to eat, and etc etc etc).

 

IF God was the one who sent Sam those visions (although that's a pretty big "if"), then maybe the visions were part of plan to lure Amara to the Cage. The visions got Sam to the Cage. Dean will follow Sam. Amara will follow Dean. Lucifer could lure her into the Cage itself.

 

It would really make me laugh (and I would love it) if Lucifer struck a deal with God:  Lucifer would lure Amara into the Cage, in exchange for....his freedom, or a TV in his cell, or something. Honestly, he could have struck the deal that he'd lure Amara into the Cage in exchange for getting his plaything (AKA, Sam) back.

Edited by rue721
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SueB

SueB

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I think Amara saved herself.

 

I'm responding to the comment that apparently Jared indicated God could be a hindrance.  And it may have less to do with not wanting to kill Amara and more to do with keeping the universe in tact (like she has to exist to keep a balance).  I'm suggesting that he's not coming in with a 5 point plan to defeat the darkness because he has a longer game in mind.  

 

So, for example, if part of the longer game is Angel unity.  Then.... well done.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

I can`t recall which interview it was right now but few weeks back. The question was about God possibly coming in to help and Jared said that God might turn out to be actually more of a hindrance. So for me, that pretty much gave away that he won`t come in as Mr.Fix-It as people are expecting now.

 

Also, since it definitely sounded like a spoiler and not mere speculation and I think they were shooting around 10ish at that time, the notion would come from a script. At least 2 or 3 after the mid-Season two-parter will likely be standalones so IMO it would make sense for it to be in episode 10 and that shot of Amara in the trailer immediately made me think of that being a way God interfered.

 

Now I do believe Amara should be capable of protecting herself and it would be very odd if even the combined angels - and seriously, how many are there still? they had like several mass extinction events by now - could kill her. But God could have teleported her out to defuse the situation on both sides. If that is what he did. It may turn out that he had nothing to do with it.

 

As for Lucifer, I wish Amara would waltz into the cage and simply snuff him out to be honest. I hate the idea of him taking over Dean`s role as the one connected to Amara in any way. For once I want it to be JUST Dean and noone but Dean, not now and not ever. I`m just so tired of his plots getting dropped or handled in a whatever way like both the Mark and demonhood were. Even his bond with Amara didn`t get much traction so far, I want that to freaking dominate the second half of the Season. They gave the first half to Sam, they can switch it up and keep it fair.   

 

I do presume he made a deal with Rowena. If he could talk to Sam, why not to her as well? She couldn`t look less bothered when her "warding" failed. She looked for all the world like everything was going perfectly to plan. And her and Crowley had that anvillious talk about "what you gotta do" at some point.

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rue721

rue721

God has nothing to gain and plenty to lose if he gets directly involved in this mess right now. Best case scenario is that he and Amara have a face-off and he re-imprisons her. Worst case is that she imprisons him or even just humiliates him in front of all of his "creations." So I think he's probably going to try and stay out of things, at least until he can't avoid it anymore. I actually hope he never shows up, and it stays ambiguous whether he even still exists. But knowing this show and its current literalism, he probably will show somehow/sometime.

 

Anyway, it's questionable whether God can or should kill Amara, imo. I don't know if he's literally capable of it, first of all. Also, what if killing her kills him, too? He's "light" and she's the "darkness," and it doesn't seem to me that the light can exist if the darkness doesn't. Aren't they a matched pair?

 

Dean is probably going to have to play Amara and God off of each other in order to get Sam out of the Cage. It's such a bummer that Sam is (apparently) getting damseled, especially since it's in such a half-baked way.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Even his bond with Amara didn`t get much traction so far, I want that to freaking dominate the second half of the Season. They gave the first half to Sam, they can switch it up and keep it fair.  

 

I personally thought that the Dean and Amara plot had as much airtime (if not more) than Sam's visions from (presumably) Lucifer, so I wouldn't call that "[giving] the first half to Sam." There was "Plush" which was more about Sam (and I found it a nice change to see a Sam-centric one-off episode, since usually it is Dean who gets those), but there was also "Thin Lizzie" which was Amara related, and therefor more related to Dean's arc. Also Crowley has had his own plot points and to a lesser extent Rowena, too. I thought that this first half of the season was fairly balanced myself.

 

Dean is probably going to have to play Amara and God off of each other in order to get Sam out of the Cage. It's such a bummer that Sam is (apparently) getting damseled, especially since it's in such a half-baked way.

 

Carver seems to enjoy damseling Sam. I kind of hope Sam at least partially gets himself out, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

I think Dean has to negotiate with Billie, we know she's in 11.10.  I don't think God shows up for a while. 

 

If Dean has to pledge his soul to be sent to the void or some such other huge sacrifice, I'm going to be pissed off, myself. Dean is always getting to do heroic stuff like that to save Sam. Generally the only times Sam got to do anything close for Dean, either Dean didn't know about it ("The Man Who Knew Too Much") or Sam starts an apocalypse.

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catrox14

catrox14

Assuming that was the actual!Death in that bar with Dean, and actual!Death wasn't lying or wrong about the Darkness then I would think God might still want the Darkness dead since that was the initial goal.  Now with Metatron saying the Darkness is God's sister (which who knows if he's telling the truth or not) but taking it at face value then it seems that the Darkness was possibly trying to interfere with God's creation or was a threat to the idea of God's creation, hence God's need to kill the Darkness. 

 

Something that struck me from 11.09, was this exchange between Dean and Amara after she kisses him (uninvited I might add!)

  

Dean: What was that?

Amara: The future. The inevitable result of our first meeting. What you’ve been feeling since that moment. What we both felt. That we’re bonded. You’re the one who set me free.

Dean: No: That was an accident

Amara: It was destiny. You bore the Mark. I am the original Mark. You and I will be together.

Dean: No. No, that’s not going to happen.

Amara: It’s so simple Dean. We will become one. Why wouldn’t you want that?

 

I need to parse this exchange a bit .

 

If the future is now as in that moment of her kissing Dean, then it seems Vortex!Adult!Amara predated Smiting!Adult!Amara, which if that is the case, then she is powerful enough to zap him out of the car and leave him a mile away from the car.*

 

If she has that power from the beginning then why does she take a baby as a vessel which has to grow up all over again and eat souls just to become her adult self? I'm wondering if it was solely to fuck with Dean to try and attach him to her more as her protector as a child and then more creepily sort of trying to seduce him as her teenager self and then as her adult self?

 

Also, Dean is wearing hunting clothes and takes out the demon knife which is not what he was wearing when in 11.09, nor what he what he tried to kill Amara with in 11.09. So I'm questioning timelines again.

 

--What would make sense to me and not blow up timelines is if the  "future" is a future that has not yet happened. Maybe Amara kissed him because she thinks that's how one stakes their claim to something they want (me: NOPENOPENOPE) . Or maybe that kiss imparted a vision of the future and why explains Dean's "What was that!"? and adamantly saying 'No that's not gonna happen."

 

I have a headache thinking about this...LOL

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

 

I personally thought that the Dean and Amara plot had as much airtime (if not more) than Sam's visions from (presumably) Lucifer, so I wouldn't call that "[giving] the first half to Sam." There was "Plush" which was more about Sam (and I found it a nice change to see a Sam-centric one-off episode, since usually it is Dean who gets those),

 

Other than the Premiere and the Baby episode, I felt Dean was focused less on even in standalones. He didn`t get to do much overall in those episodes and he especially got the negative to shining a light on Sam. Suddenly Sam touts "saving people" as it is a new concept he thought up and to really drive that point home, Dean needs to be reminded of it every episode and acts as if indeed he himself hates saving people.

 

Ep 2 was more Sam-focused, the Donna one was and the ep immediately after that was mega-Sam-focused with him being the loneliest Dickensien orphan with an enabler creature and Dean touting how he wasn`t there for Sam when what? He was a kid that his father made come on a dangerous job and he couldn`t actually be physically in two places at once. But the episode definitely played it as his character flaw. I found that message disgusting.     . 

 

In terms of mytharc, Crowley got nearly two episodes with Amara himself. the visions got traction in basically all the episodes starting from ep 2 whereas Dean and Amara got very little in terms of screentime.

 

The first half of this Season might not have been as bad as say the first half of Season 6 or second half of Season 8 but it wasn`t the least bit balanced IMO. But if they did turn it around in the second half, I would find it much more pleasurable and you should find it still balanced then. Everybody wins.

Edited by Aeryn13
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SueB

SueB

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The Powers That Be HATE Sam.  The Powers That Be HATE Dean.  The Powers That Be LOVE Sam.  The Powers That Be LOVE Dean.

 

From now on those type of posts are to go here and not anywhere else.

 

If we see them in any other thread, the post will be deleted not moved.

 

Just thought I'd put that out there.  

There is no single Figure of Merit that I believe would satisfy everyone. Screen time, lines of dialog, etc... it's all a matter of personal preferences on what is important.

 

I see a balanced season with the boys working together as a team. Each is tied to a Big Bad, as of 11.09, that is consistent with their worst fears.  It's working for me.  Though, it usually does.

 

I don't think Dean is going to have to sell his soul again.  Billie may tell him what she told Sam but from what I can tell, this is a done deal in Billie's mind and not something Sam and Dean get a vote in.  I fully expect her to take him to task about Death but I'm not sure there's anything Dean could offer -- except that if Sam is already in Hell then Billie's plan to stick him in the Empty is overridden.  She may want to get him out JUST to get a chance to chuck Sam (and Dean) into the Empty.

I think Dean expects it to not end well, no matter what he does or says.  

 

Catrox, you must be a fan of Capt Janeway (ST: VOY), she got headaches from temporal paradoxes too.  However, I don't know if we're dealing with one, personally.  I think Amara taking the form of a baby was played as a Jesus parallel.  I find it kinda fascinating that she didn't have to ask the baby's permission.  She's no Angel. 

 

This "become one" thing is the fuzzy bit IMO.  I'm thinking metaphysical AND physical here somehow.  If she wanted/could just eat Dean's soul she would have done it.  She really seems to be wanting him to be "okay" with it. To stop resisting.  There's something THERE... in that concept... I think, that's going to matter.  And you would think, after riding around on his arm for a year+ she would know the guy better.  Apparently not.  She clearly doesn't know saying the word "destiny" is a red flag.  

 

As for Sam in the Cage -- he's out in 11.10 is my guess.  He may be a bit mangled.  Maybe we'll have a wee time jump for recover... but I see no solution but him being out.  It messes up the show formula if he isn't.  So... let's presume Billie takes Dean to talk to Sam/Luci in the cage.  Does Lucifer have to let him go?  I mean, Sam's really only of value to Luci as a meatsuit.  If Sam isn't going to say yes, then Luci has no ride out.  Maybe Lucifer extracts a deal out of Sam to say "yes" when the Big Battle is actually going to go down.  Who is going to get Sam out of Luci's literal meat hooks?  I'll be mad if Billy has the horsepower.  

In short, I don't think they brought back Mark P JUST to put him away again.  I think there's some catch there that will bring him back into play.  And I think the hook is set in 11.10.  (Wow... could I mix anymore metaphors' in there???)

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rue721

rue721

(edited)

I doubt that Dean will sell his soul. I doubt that he even has to. He's got pull with Amara, and he's pretty wily. I think he can probably convince her that it would be worth her while for her to go see Lucifer/get Sam out of the Cage. After all, fooling around with Lucifer or the Cage is more likely to get God's attention than the other random stuff that Amara has been doing so far.

 

Actually, Dean has a lot of pull with Amara and Crowley, and God clearly has a hard on for the Winchesters, for whatever reason. Rowena is the biggest wild card in this scenario, imo. Also, Rowena seems to be carrying out some scheme right now, which I think might mean trouble for Sam and Dean, whether Rowena is targeting them or not.

 

Continuing on that train of thought:  maybe the Cage and Lucifer that we saw last episode were just an illusion that Rowena concocted to trick the Winchesters and to keep her own plan moving along? That might explain why the Cage itself looked so hokey and why Michael and Adam were never mentioned. And it might explain why it was so easy for her to get Sam to the Cage in the first place.

Edited by rue721
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Triskan

Triskan

Even his bond with Amara didn`t get much traction so far, I want that to freaking dominate the second half of the Season. They gave the first half to Sam, they can switch it up and keep it fair.

 

 

Actually, and though I totally agree with you that Dean and Amara's bond should be a main focus of the rest of the season (and I also hope it wont transmit to Lucifer, but who knows, that could bring interesting stuff), I'm really fine with having a little bit more Sam this season. I have the impression that the last two seasons were mostly Dean, so I'd like that change to keep on for a few more episodes.

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catrox14

catrox14

 

This "become one" thing is the fuzzy bit IMO.  I'm thinking metaphysical AND physical here somehow.  If she wanted/could just eat Dean's soul she would have done it.  She really seems to be wanting him to be "okay" with it. To stop resisting.There's something THERE... in that concept... I think, that's going to matter.

 

Oooh boy that notion makes me even more uncomfortable with the whole thing. Amara wanting Dean to submit of his own accord  to her will is super fucked up.

 

That's akin to Magnus taking away Dean's will "All will, all thought goes away. Soon you'll welcome those feelings".  Or Alistair torturing Dean everyday for 30 years until he finally submitted to Alistair's will and tortured in Hell himself, thus breaking the first seal. Or Zachariah breaking Dean down bit by bit, trying to make him say yes to Michael.

 

Theoretically, Amara has been fucking with Dean for 2 years now because she was the original Mark and according to Death, the Darkness' will corrupted Lucifer unless that was a lie or Death was wrong.  Dean has no reason to believe that her will is going to really be of genuine help to him or anyone else. The presence of HER Mark is, theoretically what turned him into an immortal murderer and a demon.

 

Ulitmately, he doesn't have a choice if she decides she wants to or thinks it's the best for her target like she did with drunk girl and Len, "blissing" them without consent and taking their souls. In Dean's case,  I think she has been "blissing" him all along, in bits and pieces. At first I figured the bliss/trance thing was because of whatever happened in the vortex, but she didn't touch him that we saw.

 

I remember how cute I thought it was when the baby touched Dean's face as he was carrying her, but in retrospect, I think that might have been the first time she blissed him or did something to him. When she touched him again as a teenager at Crowley's she reinforced and upgraded the connection, so to speak. Then again in 11.09 she touched his arm and then his face so she had enough control to try and eat his soul.

 

As to why she wouldn't or couldn't take Dean's soul, I'm wondering if his soul is totally different than a normal human because he's died like 1000 times, was brought back, went to Hell and was on the road to demonity, was rescued by an Angel who healed him, but was then turned into a demon with a twisted soul and then was cured through the blood ritual. Maybe Dean's soul is all messed up and in bits and pieces so she couldn't take any of it? Or thought it was too messed up to take?

 

But look, don't get me wrong. I love Dean more than is probably healthy for a fictional character and I want Dean to find some peace of mind and better emotional place where he values himself beyond Daddy's Blunt Little Instrument but not because some supernatural entity fucks with him by putting him in some kind of thrall that he didn't ask for and kissing him without his consent( lord knows what else she'll do that she thinks is his bliss ;/) Even if he experiences a momentary pleasure in the kiss that doesn't change that the kiss was without his consent nor does it give her carte blanch to continue violating him in myriad ways to get him to be "okay" with becoming one with her. /shudders 

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rue721

rue721

(edited)

Amara is a knockoff of Jasmine (from S4 of Angel), so I think the reason she didn't suck out Dean's soul is (Angel spoiler)

the same reason that Jasmine didn't affect Connor. Dean and Amara have a ~special connection~ and he's her tie to this world. And like with Jasmine and Connor,

I think that Dean's ~special connection~ with Amara is what will allow Dean to kill her.

 

Although maybe anybody who has had the Mark, not just Dean, has a ~special connection~ with Amara and so would be able to kill her. Maybe we'll see Cain again or Lucifer will get out of the Cage again in order for one of them (rather than Dean) to kill Amara.

 

God forbid this show goes down the path of a TFW and Lucifer team-up.

Edited by rue721
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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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