Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

Okay so I agree that Charlie is possessed l. It's the smarmy "now there's the Dean I love" the problem is who is possessing her?

https://m.facebook.com/Supernatural

[AwesomO4000]

Most of the demons I can think of who that would apply to are dead. In fact the first one who came to mind was Alastair, then second was Meg. Both dead.

 

Edited to add: I just had a weird thought - what if somehow it's Crowley?

Edited December 12, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

I thought about Alistair first.  Crowley second. Meg and Ruby seem unlikely.

What does "The Dean I love mean" .

 

My crack theories are

1) Abaddon

2) Warped versions of Mary or John because Oz seems like a bad place that might be an AU. 

 

Maybe Michael? And we see John's meatsuit again? And considering how they've mentioned John more this year than I can remember .....foreshadowing?

Edited December 12, 2014 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I could see it being John.

 

I also wonder about Metatron.

 

Or maybe it has something to do with Cole's father, if that story isn't over.

[SueB]

I think it's the wizard that I expects rides her back to our world from Oz.

[catrox14]

Why would the Wizard say that's the Dean he loves? It's gonna piss me off of its someone we've never met before saying it. It's too personal in a way even if being said sarcastically. So of course, that is exactly what they will do.

The Wizard will know Dean from the past and has turned Charlie into a demon like creature in vengeance like Dean being turned into a demon by Crowley you know for that behold parallel shit they love... Sigh.

I swear to Gods if they make Dean kill Charlie...

[NoWillToResist]

Okay so I agree that Charlie is possessed l. It's the smarmy "now there's the Dean I love" the problem is who is possessing her?

 

And on a side note, can anyone please explain to me why the boys' friends don't have anti-possession tattoos or similar protections in place?

Edited December 12, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[SueB]

 

I swear to Gods if they make Dean kill Charlie...

I will be 4 rounds of Survival Game votes that Charlie survives this episode (don't take this bet, Thompson implied it in an interview).

 

 

And on a side note, can anyone please explain to me why the boys' friends don't have anti-possession tattoos or similar protections in place?

Drama.  Really, there's no other reason.  I think they need to write the Winchester Hunter's handbook and sell it along with coupons to a tattoo parlor. 

[catrox14]

SueB, I am tempted to take that bet because I've heard she will be in two episodes this season....just because Dean doesn't kill her the next episode doesn't mean he might not for the following because you know Dean is a born-killer now....why yes that IS my bitterness showing.

[NoWillToResist]

just because Dean doesn't kill her the next episode doesn't mean he might not for the following because you know Dean is a born-killer now....why yes that IS my bitterness showing.

 

I don't see them ever killing Charlie off: she's their sacred cow (IMO) since she's their proof that a girl is allowed to live in the SPN universe and she's their "we're not homophobic or whatever" defense. Two-for-one deal! (The fact that the latter gives her the fan support to allow the former is not a coincidence, IMO)

[Pete Martell]

And on a side note, can anyone please explain to me why the boys' friends don't have anti-possession tattoos or similar protections in place?

 

Even they do it only goes so far, as Dean and Sam have been possessed repeatedly since they got them. 

[DittyDotDot]

Granted it only works for demons, but that's what they introduced as and have never been said to work for anything else. I only remember Sam being possessed the once since they got them--and Dean had Cass burn off his tattoo so Crowley could possess him.

 

It seems their friends only get protection if its convenient to the plot. Dean was shown to be rather paranoid at the beginning of S6 and had devil's traps around Lisa's house and holy water under the bed, but apparently he wasn't worried about demons finding Lisa and Ben outside of the house because they didn't seem to have any charms on them.

[catrox14]

Seriously.  My fanwank has been that the tattoos only work on the Chosen Vessels or a prophet like Kevin and his mom.  I got nuthin....

[SueB]

I figured Lisa put the kabosh on tattoos.

[DittyDotDot]

I wasn't thinking he'd make them get tattoos, just wear a charm or something. It doesn't really matter in the end because the writers will always find a way to skirt it anyway--which was my real point in the first place.  

[Demented Daisy]

http://cartermatt.com/144148/supernatural-season-10-spoilers-timothy-omundson-set-return-cain/

 

Not a whole lot of new info....  Except maybe:

 

As of this writing, Ruth Connell (Rowena) and Felicia Day (Charlie) are among the other guest stars you will be seeing for sure again this season, though we definitely expect there to be a few other familiar faces that join Dean, Sam, Castiel, and Crowley at some point, as well.

 

[kimrey]

Travis Aaron Wade (Cole) tweeted that he's returning to the show.  He already has the script so I'm thinking he'll be in the next episode they film, which is 15.

 

https://twitter.com/TravisAaronWade

[catrox14]

Sigh I thought his arc was wrapped up. I still think he's the target for a possible spinoff. Because I just can't see what purpose he serves after he let Dean live and seemed convinced what Dean told him was the truth. Unless he joins them as a hunter in training which no thanks I don't want that I've at all. MV and seriously show, and you better stop telling me that guy is 24. I would bjybo

any stupid explanation they give for changing his age outside of a time jump. Oh Gods I just had a thought. What if the episode that brings Charlie back from Oz ends up with Dean and Sam being zapped into Oz with her which is a alternate time line and then they get zapped back to this time and everyone has aged but them, demons and angel?

[7kstar]

Sigh I thought his arc was wrapped up. I still think he's the target for a possible spinoff. Because I just can't see what purpose he serves after he let Dean live and seemed convinced what Dean told him was the truth. Unless he joins them as a hunter in training which no thanks I don't want that I've at all. MV and seriously show, and you better stop telling me that guy is 24. I would bjybo

any stupid explanation they give for changing his age outside of a time jump. Oh Gods I just had a thought. What if the episode that brings Charlie back from Oz ends up with Dean and Sam being zapped into Oz with her which is a alternate time line and then they get zapped back to this time and everyone has aged but them, demons and angel?

Travis looks his age and he is older than Jensen, so it's dumb to tell me he isn't in his thirties.  I know the NCIS has had success with doing the same show with different groups in different towns which allows for crossovers, but they have to do a lot more than they are to sell me on Cole.

 

For some reason using an alternate time line doesn't sound necessary for Charlie since they say she let something evil come back with her.  Now Oz could have a different time line, like what for us was a few months is a year or so, but the show makes my head hurt when it does stuff like that.  And they don't bother to keep it up, so why do the time jumps?

 

The problem for me, the show isn't strong on making me care about the ones they want me to focus on and the ones that we do care for they happen by accident.  The two females hunting together, Jodi and Donna, is the best idea I see they have set up.  But that would mean that they actually allowed two women to come to the front lines and I don't know that these writers can do that.  I think what they don't get is we the audience have to care about the characters which is why we have stuck with Supernatural even though there are so many wrong turns.  If that makes any sense.

[Pete Martell]

The problem for me, the show isn't strong on making me care about the ones they want me to focus on and the ones that we do care for they happen by accident.  The two females hunting together, Jodi and Donna, is the best idea I see they have set up.  But that would mean that they actually allowed two women to come to the front lines and I don't know that these writers can do that.  I think what they don't get is we the audience have to care about the characters which is why we have stuck with Supernatural even though there are so many wrong turns.  If that makes any sense.

 

I think they get it to a point. They knew fans weren't thrilled with how Jody was treated in her season 8 appearance, with not only viewers, but Kim herself not knowing whether Jody was alive or dead. They brought her back twice, with a decent amount of airtime, and brought her back again this season even after some fan backlash over her appearances last season, this time with another popular female character. 

 

In other cases, like Cole, if they are trying to make him popular or important enough to take over a larger role on the show, I don't think they've succeeded, but I don't think (age gap aside) they've done a terrible job with him. I thought he was actually quite good in his last episode. I don't think he could helm a spinoff, but I wouldn't be upset if he popped up on the show every once in a while, especially if he's a part of making hunters seem less like the garbage dumps the show has put hunters in since around season 5. 

 

I don't really know what they have in mind for Cole. I still tend to think he's more about being a mirror for Dean than he is about a spinoff. I think if they get another potential spinoff they'll probably just use all new characters again.

[catrox14]

Dean and Sam are arguably two of the most complex characters I have ever watched and why the writers persist with introducing new characters to mirror them is beyond me. It's also, IMO kind of an insult to the characterization of the Winchesters and kind of an insult to the audience that we wouldn't be able to understand Sam and Dean without mirrors/parallels.

[Pete Martell]

The show has done mirroring from early on. It's often clumsy (the kid in Bugs, the Barry Bostwick character in that crap Criss Angel episode, etc.) but the show rarely seems to leave its side. I do think Cole and Claire are somewhat interesting Dean mirrors, mostly because they're about him in his own right, not just his relationship with Sam or with John.

[rue721]

I don't mind Cole as a mirror, I just don't get him (well, and dislike him) as a character. Partly, not going to lie, just because the actor is such a bizarre choice for the part. He's not bad, as an actor, but how is he playing this 23-year-old mercenary guy? Who came up with that idea?

 

Mostly my issue is:  Sorry that he had the horrifying experience of seeing his father murdered in front of him, I would never wish that on anyone. But that doesn't make it OK or even make it make sense that he's vigilante-ing all over the country (possibly the world, since he was also a mercenary as part of his attempt to learn "all" the martial arts), tracking down human beings and torturing them, like he did Sam. And meanwhile taking calls from his girlfriend right there in front of his torture victim? What kind of sociopath is this guy?

 

I guess I just don't give a shit about him or hope that he'll be OK because I think he's a bad person, dead father or no. I didn't feel bad for him when demon!Dean taunted him and beat him. Not that I was rooting for a demon, either, but whatever. I'm not going to get all het up because some asshole torturer wanna-be murderer got the shit beat out of him and got trash talked, and I don't especially need to see that character's ~evolution~.

Edited December 27, 2014 by rue721

[kimrey]

I'm hoping he will have turned into the thing his father was and Sam and Dean hunt him.  That would be more interesting to me than finding out he became a hunter.

 

I'd also like to see whoever sent that fax to Cole come into play.  He obviously had others helping him look for Dean.  

Edited December 27, 2014 by kimrey

[DittyDotDot]

I don't really know what they have in mind for Cole. I still tend to think he's more about being a mirror for Dean than he is about a spinoff. I think if they get another potential spinoff they'll probably just use all new characters again.

 

I agree he was a mirror for Dean--or more specifically a mirror of John for Dean to see--but that doesn't mean they didn't/don't have other intentions also. I'm just not particularly interested in the character as they presented him nor am I sure how they can use him to show hunters as good folk. Age problem aside, he's a revenge-driven man that dumped his family to kidnap and torture people so he can get information and kill another person.

 

I'm suspecting something happened to Cole's family (probably his wife) while he was away--probably payback for something he did while hunting down Dean--which will drag him (and possibly his young son) back into the life. Or maybe his wife got smart while he was away and realized she didn't need a revenge-driven asshole in her life and kicked him to the curb so now he's bopping around the countryside doing small random hunts. If I was a less cynical person, I'd try and come up with a scenario of how Cole could be a hunter and a husband and father without it all being gloom and doom, but I'm not, so....

[kimrey]

Suzanne Gomez previewed the next episode tonight and made some vague tweets about it.

https://twitter.com/Chico6

[SueB]

Oy, what are they going to do now?

[catrox14]

I hope whatever the single worst idea is nothing related to Sam doing anything that makes the MoC story about him or to him. I hope the idea is that Dean finds Cain and they decide to go into hell to kill Lucifer once and for all.

[SueB]

Craig at K-site posted the episode description.

http://www.ksitetv.com/supernatural/supernatural-the-hunter-games-description/50990

[7kstar]

Claire plotting revenge, yeah that always ends up well.  The worst part, I'm don't really care about Claire but her trying to hurt Dean won't be a good thing as it never ends up well.

 

Part of me dreads the second half as it is usually where they give Dean's storyline away, so I guess I have to be prepared but would it be too much to ask that the show surprises me?  In a good way?????

[SueB]

I remain supremely confident Sam will not take Dean's story.

[Pete Martell]

I don't think "worst idea" means giving Dean's story to Sam. If anything that makes me wonder how much involvement Sam will have, because if it's something that would involve Sam taking a hit, he'd usually go along with it. 

 

If I had to guess I'd say it means going to Metatron for help. Isn't Metatron in this episode?

 

I dread the part about Claire. This show has such problems with women...why do they want fans to hate Claire?

[SueB]

I think you are exactly right about Metatron being the worst idea.

Oh Claire, I wanted to like you. Now I may have to end you. So sad.

Edited January 1, 2015 by SueB

[AwesomO4000]

I hope whatever the single worst idea is nothing related to Sam doing anything that makes the MoC story about him or to him. I hope the idea is that Dean finds Cain and they decide to go into hell to kill Lucifer once and for all.

 

I can't share that hope, because in my opinion, Lucifer is more Sam's storyline, and Dean already saved Sam from the cage. I wouldn't want Dean to also be the only one to end Lucifer like he was the one to end Azazel. I can't remember if Sam has ever really gotten that kind of win over one of the major players that tormented him or not. Sam killed Alastair, but Dean got to kill and have closure with Azazel, Zachariah, and Dick Roman. Though maybe less of a rival, he also got to kill Abbadon. And I'm guessing he'll probably be the one to kill Crowley in the end as well. If Lucifer is going to be ended - which I doubt they would go in that direction - I would want Sam to at least have a part in it.

 

I also agree with Pete Martell that Sam wouldn't think of something having to do with him helping with the mark of Cain would be the "worst idea ever," so I doubt it means Sam will take the storyline. More likely Sam would think the "worst idea ever" would be Dean going off on his own to do something dangerous without knowing the consequences. And yes, especially if it involves Metatron. (And if the mark got antsy / power hungry after Dean killed Abbadon, I can just imagine how amped up it would get if he killed Metatron.)

[Wynne88]

I hope Dean doesn't go off on his own, or with Castiel or Crowley.  Sam is kind of non-essential to the story at the moment, but I still like to see him hanging around.

[Pete Martell]

I know there were rumors or claims that Sam would be in a lot of episode 12 with Dean maybe not in much of it (or it may be Dylan Everett's Dean - there was some rumor going around that Dean would be de-aged, which would amuse me mostly because it would make Dean one of the few fictional characters I can remember who is both de-aged and aged into an old man). I'd think they would have Dean and Sam apart at some point around this time as they usually do in most seasons, but who knows. 

[catrox14]

I am using the quote from Sam to illustrate my profound hope that the 'worst idea ever' does not involve the shifting of the MoC arc to Sam in any way shape or form.

My thoughts about Dean killing Lucifer with the help of Cain are solely centered around Lucifer being the key to removing the MoC. I don't think Cain wants the Mark anymore and has already asked Dean to kill him when the time comes. so to me it makes sense for Dean and Cain to join forces to confront Lucifer for them to be free of their Marks. Sam might need to be the Man of Letters person back on Earth to get both of them out of Hell if they don't use the portal in Purgatory. Crowley has the FB so without that Cain can't be killed.

can also see where Crowley will need some convincing to give up the blade again and Sam might need to be a part of that process.

I could easily see Sam saying that for many reasons none of which involve him being the "worst idea ever". For example,I could see Dean deciding to become a demon again for the purposes of having enough strength and power to fight Lucifer, just like Sam did with the demon blood to kill Lilith. Lilith killed Dean so he by rights had reason to get vengeance but Sam killed her instead. It's almost like there is a pattern of the boys killing each other's tormenters instead of them doing it directly. My hope is that this time since Dean took on the Mark himself voluntarily that he has to be the one to do something to get rid of it.

I can see many different directions that still keep Sam active in helping Dean find the solution but Sam doesn't need to BE the solution himself.

Edited January 1, 2015 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

This "story" for Claire is idiotic. Oh gee, she lost such a great friend, just think how many more rapists he could have sold her to. I`m not saying she in any way has to like Dean but if that is her angle, I can`t even believe how her stupid ass made it so far. With her given backstory, I would have expected her to be tough, smart and not easily trusting aka when someone DOES betray her trust to file that away under "trust noone, everyone is an asshole".

 

Apparently Jensen wasn`t shooting many days for episode 10 so I would expect Dean himself to have less screentime. Which would be perfectly okay if they focused the story on him. But if it gets diluted again with Cas and Claire doing their own thing? Meh. The mid-Season Finale should have been about the MOC proper, not the Claire show. Even when Dean has a story, they can`t make it the main point, it`s ludicrous.

 

My main fear is that they will get rid of the MOC already in the next episode. After all, the one after that is the Charlie hour with guest stars (every Charlie ep is that now) and then comes the maybe-Dean-de-aged shtick which could be a filler episode. Cain could be back and angry because Dean has lost the Mark already (not to mention the Blade) and thus can`t fulfill his promise to kill him any more. 

 

And this Season alone has set a precedent for having Demon!Dean captured and cured in an ultra-lame, easy and quick way. Then a couple episodes nothing was done with it. Then we got at least two bad-ass kills and the mid-Season Finale graciously devoted 2 minutes of screentime to the Mark. It is perfectly reasonable IMO to expect that "story" to end with a whimper too, right in the next episode.

 

I don`t believe for even one millisecond that the MOC will be the story featured in the second half of the Season. Sorry, show, I wasn`t born yesterday and after ten years of predictability, you are, well, predictable.

 

That said, the "worst idea ever" is likely Metatron. Which I find pretty funny because "we`re in a jam, go to some superpowered being and try to use them in some way" has been their modus operandi forever now. Usually, their go-to-guy for this is Crowley but since he is out for obvious reasons and Metratron was sadly not even killed - couldn`t have given Dean that triumph at least in the Season 9 Finale - he makes sense. 

[Wynne88]

It seemed to me that the second half of Season 9 was pretty much all about the MoC, and it's impact on Dean.  The Demon-Dean story definitely got short-shift, but I don't feel that's true of the MoC.

[Aeryn13]

But that`s the thing, the MOC story last year culminated in the demon thing. That got basically blinked out of existance. And the reasoning behind it is? We`re getting the same story from last Season now, warmed over. What, is this supposed to be an endless loop where Dean becomes a demon, Sam suirts holy water on him, gives him some blood and bam, back to the beginning?

 

Or is it just about "Dean is a born killer" as the nepotism duo believes? They are writing episode 10 so I expect lots of "Dean is a sociopath with no goodness in him" meta in their next episode. 

 

God forbid this thing ends in a character affirmation where he is allowed to rise from the ashes and learns value in himself. And not in the "learns his place with Sam" or "learns how weak and how much of a loser he really is so he always needs the true hero`s help" or even "learns to love himself as the unimportant little sidekick" way. But that he learns that he is important and strong and whatnot. Though I guess that is perfectly silly with the current writers who made it clear that even in their meta episodes Dean-fans simply not exist in their minds. I guess the concept of liking that particular character is completely alien to them.

 

[NoWillToResist]

This "story" for Claire is idiotic. Oh gee, she lost such a great friend, just think how many more rapists he could have sold her to. I`m not saying she in any way has to like Dean but if that is her angle, I can`t even believe how her stupid ass made it so far. With her given backstory, I would have expected her to be tough, smart and not easily trusting aka when someone DOES betray her trust to file that away under "trust noone, everyone is an asshole".

 

/snip/

That said, the "worst idea ever" is likely Metatron. Which I find pretty funny because "we`re in a jam, go to some superpowered being and try to use them in some way" has been their modus operandi forever now. 

 

...right? I honestly had to re-read the Claire part because seriously? She wants revenge on Dean for KILLING THE MAN WHO HAD SOLD HER INTO RAPEY SLAVERY??? Fucking seriously? Why is she mourning that guy? I think that may be the worst thing I've ever read about a female character in SPN. Kudos, Show.

 

And the boys' negative reactions to going to bad guys for help ceased being believable and began being utterly hypocritical a long time ago. Only THEY are allowed to do that!! I wonder if Cas is thinking that, since his borrowed grace allowed him to kind of control/suppress DemonDean, could Cas with his own grace snuff out the MoC? In which case, he would see if Metatron's deal is still on offer: give the tiny spark of Cas' grace that allegedly still remains back to Cas in exchange for freedom.

 

On a complete side note, I have to say that it was very refreshing to read an episode description which didn't include "Meanwhile, Castiel...". :)

Edited January 1, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[Pete Martell]

...right? I honestly had to re-read the Claire part because seriously? She wants revenge on Dean for KILLING THE MAN WHO HAD SOLD HER INTO RAPEY SLAVERY??? Fucking seriously? Why is she mourning that guy? I think that may be the worst thing I've ever read about a female character in SPN. Kudos, Show.

 

And the boys' negative reactions to going to bad guys for help ceased being believable and began being utterly hypocritical a long time ago. Only THEY are allowed to do that!! I wonder if Cas is thinking that, since his borrowed grace allowed him to kind of control/suppress DemonDean, could Cas with his own grace snuff out the MoC? In which case, he would see if Metatron's deal is still on offer: give the tiny spark of Cas' grace that allegedly still remains back to Cas in exchange for freedom.

 

On a complete side note, I have to say that it was very refreshing to read an episode description which didn't include "Meanwhile, Castiel...". :)

 

Worse than Becky drug raping Sam for laughs? Worse than Sarah and Tessa dying for shock value? Worse than Anna returning to be reduced to a Fatal Attraction joke and to be burned alive? Worse than TPTB repeatedly having Bela told she was completely rotten and deserved whatever she got, only to at the last minute scrap together a sexual abuse story for her long after viewers already despised her? Worse than having Abaddon end as a corpse Dean mutilated? Worse than Cas stalking and torturing a woman who later died slowly and painfully from her injuries? Worse than Cas and Metatron stalking a woman who was then killed because she lashed out in self-defense? Worse than creating a female character solely for "whore" jokes and so Dean could say, "On a good day you get to kill a whore"?

 

I hate the spoiler mostly because I know what it will cause in fans, but from Claire's POV, I don't think it's that shocking. She wasn't just staying with Randy. He was abusing her. He'd brainwashed and conditioned her. She doesn't see him as a man who sold her or was fine with having her raped. She sees him as someone who was the only one she could count on, the only one who gave a damn about her after her parents abandoned her. He made sure that she would know she had no value of her own and that he was keeping her going. That's not going to just go away because of what he did right before he died. It's going to take a while to shake that off. 

 

YMMV, but I don't really see the hypocrisy. I remember some fans lambasting Cas for being displeased that Dean took the mark, because didn't Cas remember when he took on great powers without asking anyone. I didn't see the hypocrisy then either. Sam is likely freaked out over making a deal with someone who, among other things, caused him (and a part of him will likely always blame himself, Gadreel or not) to kill Kevin, and someone whom he watched stab his brother to death not all that long ago. 

[Pete Martell]

But that`s the thing, the MOC story last year culminated in the demon thing. That got basically blinked out of existance. And the reasoning behind it is? We`re getting the same story from last Season now, warmed over. What, is this supposed to be an endless loop where Dean becomes a demon, Sam suirts holy water on him, gives him some blood and bam, back to the beginning?

 

Or is it just about "Dean is a born killer" as the nepotism duo believes? They are writing episode 10 so I expect lots of "Dean is a sociopath with no goodness in him" meta in their next episode. 

 

God forbid this thing ends in a character affirmation where he is allowed to rise from the ashes and learns value in himself. And not in the "learns his place with Sam" or "learns how weak and how much of a loser he really is so he always needs the true hero`s help" or even "learns to love himself as the unimportant little sidekick" way. But that he learns that he is important and strong and whatnot. Though I guess that is perfectly silly with the current writers who made it clear that even in their meta episodes Dean-fans simply not exist in their minds. I guess the concept of liking that particular character is completely alien to them.

 

I can't remember any episode saying Dean is a sociopath with no goodness in him. If we're just going on quotes, rather than what's in the show, then things like Samelia would have been life-changing stories. Instead it's reduced to, "Sam hit a dog."

 

I don't know if any story on SPN will ever allow for affirmation, but I think that path is still open for Dean. They've made sure to not have Dean go so far over the edge these last two seasons that he couldn't be brought back. They've also made all of his stories, even the demon story, about his lifelong psychological traumas. Even the stories with Claire and Cole are ultimately reminders of Dean's life and Dean's past - two people consumed by revenge for the death of a parental figure.

 

Dean's story is still about him, and how his past made his present and whether it will make his future. 

 

Until that changes I think the show is still doing a decent job of it. It's very character-based and if they have the guts to push all the way with this John stuff that they keep hinting at, then it could rebuild Dean from the ground up.

[catrox14]

I love Jensen's portrayal of demon Dean UT I hate that he was ever deconstructed to this. So to me if he doesn't start doing something really meaningful with that power I don't eve of see the point of turning him into a demon. Sam had the powers that allowed him to kill Alistair and lilith. Dean killed Abaddon as a human and did not kill Metatron. So to this point his demoniity has served no good purpose in the story other than Making Dean a big murdering dick.

Edited January 2, 2015 by catrox14

[Pete Martell]

I think the purpose has worked in that it showed more of Dean's psyche and what he's trying to run away from. It also remained in character for him. Sam got to kill Alastair (Lilith wanted to die so I can't count that), but the story heavily damaged his character and it has never been fully repaired. A cool kill wasn't worth that.

[Aeryn13]

 

I think the purpose has worked in that it showed more of Dean's psyche and what he's trying to run away from.

 

That only works if one thinks purely psychological stories are suficient or if they are this show can pull them off or it pulled this one off or it is even a good psychological story for the character. I`d disagree with all of those. So for me, Sam did get the better story, cool kill and all. 

 

 

I can't remember any episode saying Dean is a sociopath with no goodness in him.

 

Maybe it will be in ep 10? After all, it is written by the duo. But either way, even if they don`t spell it out plainly, it is IMO how the writers approach the character and the story and if your starting point is "born killer", no wonder there will never be something good coming from it.  

 

 

I don't know if any story on SPN will ever allow for affirmation

 

I`d happily settle for the affirmation like Sam has gotten it because to me he has in spades. If Dean got the same thing? Hooray.  

Edited January 2, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Pete Martell]

That only works if one thinks purely psychological stories are suficient or if they are this show can pull them off or it pulled this one off or it is even a good psychological story for the character. I`d disagree with all of those. So for me, Sam did get the better story, cool kill and all. 

 

Maybe it will be in ep 10? After all, it is written by the duo. But either way, even if they don`t spell it out plainly, it is IMO how the writers approach the character and the story and if your starting point is "born killer", no wonder there will never be something good coming from it.  

 

I`d happily settle for the affirmation like Sam has gotten it because to me he has in spades. If Dean got the same thing? Hooray.  

 

Sam's story, to me, mostly amounted to him being manipulated by a demonic vixen, killing an innocent person (which was never addressed, always left to hang over the character), nearly beating Dean to death (ditto), and starting the apocalypse. The only real resolution to the story ended up being a lot of brother misery angst and essentially making sure Dean, and viewers, had no choice but to see Sam had to commit suicide to save the world. The field scenes were done in a lackluster manner and then when he was resurrected, they just ignored Sam the character altogether in favor of the Soulless saga. I can't really remember any one moment where any of this did Sam justice or justified the damage done to the character in season 4. 

 

I remember when people wanted Dean to have Sam's trials story because that was supposed to be heroic, but ultimately the trials failed and he was suicidal. He then spent most of season 9 either possessed or driving Dean's story. 

 

Characters tell Sam he is a hero, or they worry about him, but generally I don't think he's gotten all that much affirmation in the narrative. The narrative tends to punish him and see him as being above himself...when he has a POV at all.

 

If I thought that writing team wrote episodes with Dean as some type of mean monster, I'd agree, but for all their many flaws I don't think they have. Even the episode where he butchered Abaddon didn't treat him that way - we were clearly supposed to be scared for him, not scared of him. I guess we'll see what happens in the episode, but I take "born killer" as being more about what he was trained to be and what the mark makes him, not as a personal slam.

 

I have no real faith in the show, but I do think they do right by Dean's psychological traumas more often than not. I actually thought last season was one of his best and most consistent story arcs. This season has been more uneven in that area, mostly because I didn't care for the way Demon Dean was written in the premiere, but overall I still think they've done a decent job with it.

Edited January 2, 2015 by Pete Martell

[Aeryn13]

 

If I thought that writing team wrote episodes with Dean as some type of mean monster, I'd agree, but for all their many flaws I don't think they have.

 

I think they do - or at least the weakest ones do, writers like Glass IMO see worth in Dean, through solely as Sam`s valet and sidekick so maybe seeing him as a monster is still more complimentary - it`s just they are too clumsy and Jensen too skilled in smoothing things over to have that be the complete, black and white product.

 

They are also pretty much tone-deaf. All the demonic vessels that get willy-nilly butchered every single episode aren`t even a blip on the radar screen but Sam moonlighting as a Crossroads Demon or Dean`s "massacre" of a couple of rapists who even physically attacked him in superior numbers is supposed to be mindblowingly "dark".

 

So, as stupid as the field moment was with Sam falling Jesus pose into a hole to save the world and Dean kneeling on the ground to watch the heroics of the Saviour, I think THIS is the kind of affirmation these writers give. Because it`s the easiest common denominator for "all hail the great hero" storytelling. Hence, I`d wish for it for Dean, too. 

 

Maybe if they bring Metatron back as a real threat, Dean could get his redemptive moment and kill him at the end. 

[DittyDotDot]

SueB, on 31 Dec 2014 - 11:26 PM, said:

I think you are exactly right about Metatron being the worst idea.

 

I haven't clicked on either of those links, so maybe I don't have all the information I need, but what the hell, right? I wonder if it actually doesn't mean much at all. This has been a recurring gag since S1. Sam also thought it was the worst idea ever to get thrown in jail to hunt a ghost. Dean thought his own idea of getting to a nunnery for a righteous bone was also supremely stupid.

 

Probably does have to do with Marvatron though, which only has me supremely hoping somebody ends his ass! I don't care if it's Sam, Dean or a little leprechaun.

 

I remain supremely optimistic that the MoC will not be shifted to Sam in any way.

 

ETA: Wow, I'm feeling supremely supreme today, I guess. Sorry about all the supremelys

Edited January 2, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[rue721]

I hate the spoiler mostly because I know what it will cause in fans, but from Claire's POV, I don't think it's that shocking. She wasn't just staying with Randy. He was abusing her. He'd brainwashed and conditioned her. She doesn't see him as a man who sold her or was fine with having her raped. She sees him as someone who was the only one she could count on, the only one who gave a damn about her after her parents abandoned her. He made sure that she would know she had no value of her own and that he was keeping her going. That's not going to just go away because of what he did right before he died. It's going to take a while to shake that off. 

 

The spoiler that Claire is upset about Randy is fine in a "I get why Claire is upset about Randy" sense, but I just dread watching that storyline. Teen girls are ostensibly a big portion of the audience, but the one storyline the show does about a teen girl is her mourning the man who tried to sell her into slavery? Not looking forward to this.

 

I remain supremely optimistic that the MoC will not be shifted to Sam in any way.

 

IA, the idea of shifting the MoC to Sam doesn't make any sense to me. Why would it be helpful for Sam to have the Mark rather than Dean having it? Wouldn't they have the exact same problems they do now, since Sam is also a human being? Not that Dean would ever in a million years give the Mark to Sam, and it seems like shifting it has to be a voluntary thing (at least how Cain approached it made it seem that way). Plus, you'd think that Dean would be a little worried about shifting it anyway, since getting rid of it apparently didn't un-demon-ify Cain. There's no guarantee what'll happen to him if he just dumps the Mark.

 

If they shift the MoC to Metratron, I will laugh (because WTF?!) and then cry (because WTF?!!!). Not that that's going to happen, just trying to think of The Worst Idea.

Edited January 2, 2015 by rue721