Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

In 9.23 Crowley said that the Mark was killing Dean. There is no reason to disbelieve Crowley on this point. Dean was yakking up blood.  He was dying. 

 

CROWLEY:What's that smell?

DEAN: [looking rather scared and lonely]What the hell's happening to me, you son of a bitch?

CROWLEY:Liquor before beer, bad taco? How should I know?

DEAN:I can't turn it off! Ever since I killed Abaddon, it's -- it's like this whole...other thing. I get this high and I-I-I need to kill. I mean, I really, really need to kill. And if I don't --

CROWLEY:you yak your guts out. It's the mark.

DEAN:Meaning?

CROWLEY:It wants you to kill. The more you kill, the better you feel. The less you kill, the less better you feel.

DEAN:How much less better?

CROWLEY:One would imagine ...the least-best better.

DEAN:So dead? Well, Cain had the mark. He didn't die.

CROWLEY: Cain was a demon. Your body's not strong enough to contain the blade's power.

DEAN [his eye betraying his fear]:What if I got rid of it?

CROWLEY:You want to get rid of it?

DEAN [getting himself in back in control]What I want is Metatron.

CROWLEY:Go on.

DEAN:But I have to get through that door, and I have to get to the blade. And you're gonna help me.

 

So to me Dean was still human at that point even if the Mark was affecting him negatively.  Dean was more aggressive because the Mark was having an affect. To use a really bad analogy, to me it was like a severe alcoholic who would forgo food and sleep to drink. The body becomes physically addicted to the alcohol.  If  they suddenly stop drinking they could actually die from withdrawal.  To me that is what was happening to Dean.

 

It was only after Dean killed Magnus with the Blade that he started drinking a lot more. He didn't crave what he craved before: burgers, pie, sex, because he was fighting the desire/compulsion/addiction for the thing he did crave which was killing. Killing Abaddon sent him way over the edge to the yakking up in the finale.  

Edited November 26, 2014 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

So to me Dean was still human at that point even if the Mark was affecting him negatively.  Dean was more aggressive because the Mark was having an affect. To use a really bad analogy, to me it was like a severe alcoholic who would forgo food and sleep to drink. The body becomes physically addicted to the alcohol.  If  they suddenly stop drinking they could actually die from withdrawal.  To me that is what was happening to Dean.

 

I'm not saying that Dean didn't have his humanity, in the more abstract sense, but physically he was no longer human, in my mind. To me the Mark made him something other than human physically, like the demon blood did to Sam. Sam was no more human when he had that demon blood in him than I think Dean is with the Mark. I don't think Crowley is saying Dean will physically die, but the MoC was killing that which made Dean who he was--his humanity. But, I'm probably reading too much into it there anyway. I have a tendency to do that.

[Demented Daisy]

Now that Cole and Hannah's storylines appear to be over, what were the points?  How will their storylines affect the overall story?

 

Hannah, presumably, was written to remind Castiel that his vessel was human, with human wants and desires and hopes and dreams and whatnot.  Which is why he goes looking for Claire.  If I didn't know better (and I don't), I'd think they're setting up for Castiel's departure.  For a long time, I've thought that Carver wasn't particularly interested in Castiel.  *shrug* 

 

Cole.  This I really don't know.  I feel like I'm missing something.

[catrox14]

Dean said "so dead then" and Crowley didn't correct him or deny it. Based on how other human vessels deteriorated when occupied by Lucifers and how Sam had to drink ALL the demon blood to withstand being Lucifers vessel, I think it was a literal physical death that was happening to Dean because the Mark wanted him to kill and he was fighting against it. To me if it weren't for Dean physically yakking up blood I could buy the metaphorical death but no I think it was a literal impending death which is why IMO Dean told Sam to just let him die.

Seems like a great question for a con goer or a tweet to the writers.

I

Assuming that Dean is human and that the Mark was killing him before, why isn't it killing him again? Is it because Dean is killing again.?

If this were the final season I would totally buy into a Dean and Cas parallel ending where Cas' grace gives out and Deans life is slowly taken away by the Mark so they go on a mutualsuicide run to finally close the gates of Heaven and Hell. Sam survives and goes onto training hunters and becomes the new Bobby.

Edited November 26, 2014 by catrox14

[SueB]

I think the point of Cole's story was for the payoff of last night. Dean saved him from continuing down the Inigo Montoya path.  And he risked his life to do so.  Even as self-loathing as Dean is, he has to at least know he cleaned up a mess. It's even possible he can see his actions as saving Cole -- which would fit the "I just want to do something right" lament he had during "Paper Moon". 

 

The point of Hannah's story was (IMO) multi-faceted

- It allowed for Cas to see the price he's paid

- It allowed for Cas to have a mission of atonement by collecting rogue angels (thus preventing any angel, a supernatural being of immense power, who stayed on earth from doing their own thing -- for good OR evil).

- It showed that the lesson that the Angels are FREELY choosing to serve humanity actually stuck with at least one Angel (Hannah). 

 

And this last is kind of important.  If you look at God as a caring parent with a policy of no-intervention, then this entire horrible experience for the Angels ultimately should result in a stronger Heavenly Host. One who believes that protecting humans is their mission (vice throwing an Apocalypse because they never really understood what Dad was saying).  With each Angel experiencing humanity, and MOST angels choosing to go back to Heaven with this knowledge, God has introduced (completely) Free Will to the Angels. 

[Demented Daisy]

I think the point of Cole's story was for the payoff of last night. Dean saved him from continuing down the Inigo Montoya path.  And he risked his life to do so.  Even as self-loathing as Dean is, he has to at least know he cleaned up a mess. It's even possible he can see his actions as saving Cole -- which would fit the "I just want to do something right" lament he had during "Paper Moon". 

 

Ah, you give TPTB more credit than I do.  I would be shocked if Dean felt like he saved Cole.  

 

Which may take me to the bitterness thread.  I'm all over the place this morning.  Eh, I'm probably just trying to put off my Thanksgiving cooking.  ;-)

[Pete Martell]

Now that Cole and Hannah's storylines appear to be over, what were the points?  How will their storylines affect the overall story?

 

Hannah, presumably, was written to remind Castiel that his vessel was human, with human wants and desires and hopes and dreams and whatnot.  Which is why he goes looking for Claire.  If I didn't know better (and I don't), I'd think they're setting up for Castiel's departure.  For a long time, I've thought that Carver wasn't particularly interested in Castiel.  *shrug* 

 

Cole.  This I really don't know.  I feel like I'm missing something.

 

I think Carver's one of the main reasons Cas has stayed on the show, as he likely had a huge hand in rebuilding the Dean/Cas relationship that the show had spent two seasons tearing down. He also wasn't working on the show during the period where Misha was fired.

 

I think he has no real idea what to do with Cas because a lot of fans will never put up with Cas being around the brothers for long, and it also seems to be very difficult for the show to write anyone being around them or to test themselves with new storylines. This season they seem to have dropped the angel war stories, for now anyway, and are taking him on a personal journey. I think that's a great idea, but Hannah throwing herself at him started the whole thing off on a sour path. I guess the ultimate question will be whether Cas chooses to die (and let Jimmy's body rest in peace) when his grace runs out. 

 

I think Cole, with his wife and family, = the path not taken for Dean. When Dean was Cole's age, he wanted to get out of the revenge cycle. John's death and the deal John made for him made that impossible. It's also one of the big reasons why Dean believes he is garbage. I think maybe by helping Cole move on, Dean may be able to start the process of moving on and letting the past go.

Ah, you give TPTB more credit than I do.  I would be shocked if Dean felt like he saved Cole.  

 

I think he would likely feel he tried his best. He wouldn't have said as much as he did if he wasn't being sincere. And that alone is a step forward for Dean, to be that honest with someone he only knows for trying to kill him and for torturing his brother.

[DittyDotDot]

Now that Cole and Hannah's storylines appear to be over, what were the points?  How will their storylines affect the overall story?

 

...

 

Cole.  This I really don't know.  I feel like I'm missing something.

 

Well, I have a theory that while Cole's purpose this season was to be a new version of John Winchester--a young father whose eyes are opened to the supernatural through familial loss--his main purpose was to do a spin-off about. Now, I could be way off base here, but it seems like the end of Cole's story was way too nice and tidy for this show--Cole just drives off into the sunset? Couple that with Carver's comments about how instead of doing a backdoor pilot they needed to introduce one character and let us get to know them for a couple of episodes. And add on, isn't this how The Vampire Diaries introduced their spin off for The Originals and not far off how they did the introduction for The Flash on Arrow. I don't know, but sometimes I just gotta go all conspiracy theorist for shits and giggles. ;)

[NoWillToResist]

Hannah, presumably, was written to remind Castiel that his vessel was human, with human wants and desires and hopes and dreams and whatnot.  Which is why he goes looking for Claire.  If I didn't know better (and I don't), I'd think they're setting up for Castiel's departure.

 

The last few seasons have really been a 'be careful what you wish for' scenario for me. I wanted Misha to stay on the show but naively figured that meant that  Cas would be around Dean and Sam. If TPTB insist on giving him his own (usually shitty, IMO) storylines, why is he on this show? He might as well be in a spin-off for all the interaction he has with the Winchesters. I was happy to hear that Misha was coming back for this season, but to be totally honest, I haven't watched a single episode this season. How many episode descriptions have contained "Sam and Dean do such and such. Meanwhile, Castiel....."? Wake me up when Dean, Sam and Cas are in the same scene, ok?

 

I think Carver's one of the main reasons Cas has stayed on the show, as he likely had a huge hand in rebuilding the Dean/Cas relationship that the show had spent two seasons tearing down. He also wasn't working on the show during the period where Misha was fired.

 

I think it was Carver who went on record and said that no one was a bigger fan of the Cas and Dean dynamic than him...or am I crediting that statement to the wrong person? He has also stated in interviews for this season that the Cas/Dean bond is strong. Not really sure where I've seen evidence of that this season, but whatever.

 

I'm starting to see the merit in the opinion of Cas/Misha fans who are actually rooting for Misha to move on. TPTB have given him shit to work with thus far. We've had 7 episodes and Misha - a regular this season, IIRC - has had 5 seconds of screen-time with Jared and about 60 seconds of screen-time with Jensen. Crowley, the other new regular this season - has been integral to Dean's storyline.

 

So, unless they are going to overwhelm me with "Team Free Will" in 2015, colour me utterly unimpressed with "Misha Collins has been signed to series regular for S10!". He's been on tv, but not Supernatural, IMO....

Edited November 26, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

I agree with the idea that Cole is being used as a set up, for a spinoff. I think it's a terrible idea for a spinoff personally becausee it's just a rehash of the boys story or that Cole is going to figure out how to have a family and be a hunter while he is a rehash of Lisa and Dean only Cole will get the happiness that Dean didn't and that would really pass me off. Lol

[Pete Martell]

The last few seasons have really been a 'be careful what you wish for' scenario for me. I wanted Misha to stay on the show but naively figured that meant that  Cas would be around Dean and Sam. If TPTB insist on giving him his own (usually shitty, IMO) storylines, why is he on this show? He might as well be in a spin-off for all the interaction he has with the Winchesters. I was happy to hear that Misha was coming back for this season, but to be totally honest, I haven't watched a single episode this season. How many episode descriptions have contained "Sam and Dean do such and such. Meanwhile, Castiel....."? Wake me up when Dean, Sam and Cas are in the same scene, ok?

 

I think it was Carver who went on record and said that no one was a bigger fan of the Cas and Dean dynamic than him...or am I crediting that statement to the wrong person? He has also stated in interviews for this season that the Cas/Dean bond is strong. Not really sure where I've seen evidence of that this season, but whatever.

 

I'm starting to see the merit in the opinion of Cas/Misha fans who are actually rooting for Misha to move on. TPTB have given him shit to work with thus far. We've had 7 episodes and Misha - a regular this season, IIRC - has had 5 seconds of screen-time with Jared and about 60 seconds of screen-time with Jensen. Crowley, the other new regular this season - has been integral to Dean's storyline.

 

So, unless they are going to overwhelm me with "Team Free Will" in 2015, colour me utterly unimpressed with "Misha Collins has been signed to series regular for S10!". He's been on tv, but not Supernatural, IMO....

 

Integral is being very generous. They had a handful of scenes together that amounted to really lazy lolgay jokes, bromance jokes, and Demon Dean knocking him on his ass. The storyline was humiliating for Crowley. Dean and Cas are isolated to the point of lunacy, but at least he did save Dean, and in the last episode Dean essentially said Cas loved him (in a serious tone, not joking or sneering). 

 

The problem I have with the fans who insist Misha needs to move on is that they put their own thoughts onto him, which is disrespectful and naive. Every time Misha did an interview last season, some fans would insist that he was depressed, and bitter, and "over it," and he had to leave now for his own sake and because then he could be a big star. Apparently no one gave him the memo, because he signed up for another season.

 

I think most of Misha's material this season has been dull and weak and aimless. Unfortunately I can't even really discuss most of my thoughts at most places where Cas even has fans because many of these fans insist every episode is OOC and every episode is an atrocity (and have insisted every episode has been at atrocity for Cas as far back as I can remember), and moan about how everything is terrible without their patron saint Ben Edlund. I'm just bored of it. Many of these same people insist if the show doesn't put Dean and Cas together, any interaction between them is "queerbaiting" and making them "bros." Many of them don't even watch the actual show anymore and get upset over what they read third hand, leading to ugly lows like being convinced that Hannah and Cas were going to have sex via some type of influence, and tweeting Robert Berens and Erica Carroll accusing them of supporting rape. 

 

If I'm sick of these people, I can't imagine how fed up the show is. It doesn't excuse bad writing, which Cas has had plenty of, but there is just no real way of even knowing what most fans want of Cas on the show at this point. Any time TFW is together, there is very vocal backlash from a very organized part of fandom. Instead of a supportive reaction from other fans, there's mostly just a lot of wank and circle jerking and people yelling over each other. It's no surprise which side gets results.

[NoWillToResist]

1. Dean and Cas are isolated to the point of lunacy, but at least he did save Dean

 

2. The problem I have with the fans who insist Misha needs to move on is that they put their own thoughts onto him, which is disrespectful and naive. Every time Misha did an interview last season, some fans would insist that he was depressed, and bitter, and "over it," and he had to leave now for his own sake and because then he could be a big star. Apparently no one gave him the memo, because he signed up for another season.

 

3. I think most of Misha's material this season has been dull and weak and aimless. Unfortunately I can't even really discuss most of my thoughts at most places where Cas even has fans because many of these fans insist every episode is OOC and every episode is an atrocity (and have insisted every episode has been at atrocity for Cas as far back as I can remember), and moan about how everything is terrible without their patron saint Ben Edlund. I'm just bored of it. Many of these same people insist if the show doesn't put Dean and Cas together, any interaction between them is "queerbaiting" and making them "bros." Many of them don't even watch the actual show anymore and get upset over what they read third hand, leading to ugly lows like being convinced that Hannah and Cas were going to have sex via some type of influence, and tweeting Robert Berens and Erica Carroll accusing them of supporting rape. 

 

If I'm sick of these people, I can't imagine how fed up the show is. It doesn't excuse bad writing, which Cas has had plenty of, but there is just no real way of even knowing what most fans want of Cas on the show at this point. Any time TFW is together, there is very vocal backlash from a very organized part of fandom. Instead of a supportive reaction from other fans, there's mostly just a lot of wank and circle jerking and people yelling over each other. It's no surprise which side gets results.

 

1. Didn't Cas technically save Sam (from Dean)? Though I suppose one could argue that preventing DemonDean from killing Sam is a form of saving Dean since Dean - if cured - probably wouldn't want to live with knowledge that he'd killed Sam.

 

2. I'm on the fence a bit because I can imagine that having a regular paycheck in a notoriously fickle business is hard to pass up. He seems to have lots of opportunities to pursue his charitable causes and, by all accounts, loves the cast and crew. So, I'm glad for him and his family that he's gainfully employed with a steady paycheck...I just wish he was given better material and an actual place in the main narrative with Dean and Sam (though I am interested in the upcoming story with Claire Novak). But I'm well aware that this is my opinion and would not dream of assuming that Misha felt the same. *I* may prefer to see him as part of TFW, but perhaps Misha loves hanging with Erica Carroll and Curtis Armstrong, keeping him away from the fandom drama. Speaking of which...

 

3. Is it wrong for me to say that many of my issues with this show is due to the fandom? I kind of wish that I could go back to the time when I watched the show without knowing the drama that happens behind the scenes. The stories I've read have made me ill. Our fandom is so fucking spoiled. The cast members go to a zillion conventions a year, they put on fan events, they are all present and interactive on social media...and the fandom responds with such entitlement and aggression that it makes me cringe. TPTB don't help themselves much, but equally, they are totally fucked. You've got two rabid and polar opposite fan-groups who make everyone else look bad (IMO). Most fans are probably totally moderate viewers; but I feel that the fanatics are very, very vocal and drown out the majority.

 

I was so angry that Rob Berens was getting shit on his Twitter over the preview for this episode. He even said that the promo was misleading but people were accusing him of such ugliness that I was ashamed for them. People are ready to attack the writer before they've even seen the episode?? He, IMO rightly, refused to clarify why he felt the attacks were unwarranted because he didn't think it was right to spoil the entire episode to those who couldn't wait to know context before slinging accusations. Ugh.

 

It makes me long for the days when all one could do if one was pissed off enough at a show was write a letter, put a stamp on it, get to a postal outlet, and mail that fucker. Nowadays, any fucknut with access to the internet can verbally abuse and harass anyone without taking a second to calm the fuck down and think about what they're putting out there for all to read.

 

Social media has irrevocably damaged our society, IMO.

[SueB]

We've had 7 episodes and Misha - a regular this season, IIRC - has had 5 seconds of screen-time with Jared and about 60 seconds of screen-time with Jensen. Crowley, the other new regular this season - has been integral to Dean's storyline.

I think the phone conversations with Cas/Sam count. And I don't think Crowley has been integral to Dean's story.

but to be totally honest, I haven't watched a single episode this season.

If you are not watching, are you getting your impressions from recaps?

While I agree the lack of Cas with Sam & Dean has been hard, I think Carver really wants to let Sam be the one to help Dean recover. I'm okay with that as last year was hard on their relationship. I'm hoping there's more Cas with brothers in the second half. Perhaps EP 9 ( with Claire) is meant to put a wrapper on Cas' solo journey.

[7kstar]

Integral is being very generous. They had a handful of scenes together that amounted to really lazy lolgay jokes, bromance jokes, and Demon Dean knocking him on his ass. The storyline was humiliating for Crowley. Dean and Cas are isolated to the point of lunacy, but at least he did save Dean, and in the last episode Dean essentially said Cas loved him (in a serious tone, not joking or sneering). 

 

The problem I have with the fans who insist Misha needs to move on is that they put their own thoughts onto him, which is disrespectful and naive. Every time Misha did an interview last season, some fans would insist that he was depressed, and bitter, and "over it," and he had to leave now for his own sake and because then he could be a big star. Apparently no one gave him the memo, because he signed up for another season.

 

I think most of Misha's material this season has been dull and weak and aimless. Unfortunately I can't even really discuss most of my thoughts at most places where Cas even has fans because many of these fans insist every episode is OOC and every episode is an atrocity ...

 

If I'm sick of these people, I can't imagine how fed up the show is. It doesn't excuse bad writing, which Cas has had plenty of, but there is just no real way of even knowing what most fans want of Cas on the show at this point. Any time TFW is together, there is very vocal backlash from a very organized part of fandom. Instead of a supportive reaction from other fans, there's mostly just a lot of wank and circle jerking and people yelling over each other. It's no surprise which side gets results.

First of all a series regular does not mean they get more eps than a guess star, but that they have a commitment to the show.  This allows them to continue to tell the story they want, that if they didn't have a contract they could lose the actor.  If Misha really didn't want to do it, he wouldn't have signed on, period.

 

Nor do I think they are ignoring Misha, in fact they have actually set up a point which they couldn't have if he had been totally with Dean and Sam.  Carver has stated this season is about the character's exploring themselves and it has been doing that.

 

From an actor's perspective, Misha has gotten something to set his teeth into.  It may not be your cup of tea, but it hasn't been nothing.  He has done some really good work IMO.  As an actress, it also has been complex.  The show will never do Dean and Cas more than bros, they haven't really implied they would and I would insert that Fanfiction made it clear, you have your story you want to tell and we have ours.  Yes they have joked around, but I don't think they ever thought it would go that direction and the separation IMO is to allow the writers freedom to write the story they want to tell and honestly, that is their job.  Since they are gaining viewers, they can do it.

 

Carver is someone that has a plan and sticks with it.  He may make a few changes but I don't see him as someone that will cave to the fans demands but will tell story he wants to tell.  Carver found a reason to bring Cas back and it's organic to the show.  The angels learning about what their jobs really entails is kind of interesting, not the biggest and brightest but it does a moment of interest.  But I'm also a fan that thinks it is okay to expand the show beyond Sam & Dean.

 

Actually to me, it really looks like they are setting up the spin off on a witch.  Crowley's mom.  There is definitely a richness to the story that could be interesting.  Cole might show up due to the fact that he met her and allowed her to leave but...if the writers were smart, it would be the place they could go and it would allow for a strong female presence.

 

Every show has something that as a fan you don't like, but believe me, if any of these actors really hated being there and were doing it for a paycheck, they would have left.  The fact that many guest actors comment on how much these actors give to the guest stars states how committed they are to the production.  The layers they are setting up are interesting.

 

1. Dean feeling he can't be saved.

2. Sam being afraid to kill, he's had this issue twice now.

3. Cas trying to do the right thing and unsure how to do it.

4. Crowley having to deal with Mom back in town and create order in the chaos that was allowed to happened when he spent all that time trapped at the bunker. 

 

That said, I don't see Cas away from the boys as a bad thing but actually an opportunity.  The question is what do they do with this...

 

Also the writers, actors have tough skins.  They have gone through more rejections than most people deal with.  It's a tough business and the ones that can't handle it, don't stick with it.  Misha gets to explore other things and he is having a blast from everything I've seen from interview and such.  The only upset I saw is him wanting to be in the 200th ep but I truly understand why Carver wouldn't allow it. 

 

The actress that played Hannah showed her range from being able to convey two types of characters in just a few lines.  She did her job. 

 

So I'm not one of the fans that thinks Misha should leave.  He should do what he wants and I support his choices.  If he decides to leave, he will and I wouldn't hold it against him. 

 

Now would I like to see Dean, Sam & Cas working together, of course and I have the suspicion that will happen in the second half.  Honestly I haven't enjoyed the show as much as I have this season in a long time.  I may not agree with everything, but  no one is phoning it in and they are doing their jobs.  JMV

Edited November 27, 2014 by 7kstar

[NoWillToResist]

If you are not watching, are you getting your impressions from recaps?

 

Yes. That and the episode threads here. I am aware of the mild hypocrisy of some of my comments since I'm not actually watching the episodes but I do believe there is a difference between posting mild comments/criticism on a show-related forum and viciously attacking actors/writers etc. on their social media accounts. :)

 

1. The show will never do Dean and Cas more than bros, they haven't really implied they would

 

2 The layers they are setting up are interesting.

 

 Cas trying to do the right thing and unsure how to do it.

 

(apologies for heavily trimming your post...)

 

1. I have absolutely no expectation that they would; I just love their dynamic (that and "Team Free Will"). I don't expect Cas to be in the Winchesters' back pocket, but I have found his absence from their life very glaring of late.

 

2. The issue I have with this is that I feel that this has been Cas's story for pretty much ever. :)  Cas tries to do the right thing, shit fucks up, he feels bad and tries to fix things...fucks shit up more. ;)  That's why I'm cautiously optimistic about the Claire storyline. Yes, it may be another iteration of Cas trying to fix something he feels he fucked up, but it does at least have the potential to spin off towards some truly interesting themes and concepts in the SPN 'verse...

Edited November 27, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[SueB]

I do believe there is a difference between posting mild comments/criticism on a show-related forum and viciously attacking actors/writers etc. on their social media accounts. :)

Of course!

Honestly, I avoid negativity on Twitter/Tumblr. I have to assume (like 7kstar said) these cast & writers know how to sort the wheat and chaff.

Oddly I've found that it takes two watchings for me to appreciate an episode. I blame it on live vs binge watching. For some reason I'm too distracted during the live viewing.

I do think the season has set up each of the characters for their own development this year with big themes. Like last episode's 'consent and choice' vibe that became more evident to me on the second go round.

Re: Cas: I think he's with the show til the show ends. Even though they haven't leverged Cas & Boys yet, I think they have plenty left to them.

Edited November 27, 2014 by SueB

[SueB]

Sneak peek video for tomorrow night's episode.

https://twitter.com/cw_spn

[catrox14]

Oh Dean. I think he's really scared about what is coming next. ;(

[kimrey]

HEY!  Let's talk about that promo!

 

I'm pretty sure most of it is a dream.  I know when S.E. Hinton was on set she said she saw a scene where Dean is asleep and I'm pretty sure that was when they were filming this episode.  So I'd put money on the episode opening up with Dean asleep having that Dream where he's all bloody and killed people and Crowley and what not and wakes up in a panic.  Then the boys meet up with Cas who has just located Clair and needs their help and that's when they have that conversation.

[SueB]

That's a really good guess. It's got the black & white 'something's not right' thing going for it.  But even if it's a dream, it's disturbing as hell that this is what he dreams about.  NGL, I fully intend to micro-analyze the hell out of that preview as soon as I get my hands on a version I can pull up in QuickTime.  It was chock-full of freaky. 

 

And I'm so glad Dean is talking to Cas.  Can we just keep Cas? Please? 

[oliverwendell]

I agree -- it's either a dream or a hallucination induced by Crowley.  But the fact that Dean and Cas WERE IN THE SAME SCENE for, like, the second time all season is going to have me tuning in even if the whole episode is about Crowley doing his laundry.

 

Which, actually, I'd probably watch anyway.

[Pete Martell]

Was Dean holding the blade in that closeup of someone's hand?

[catrox14]

Okay that preview really freaked me out.  And I am not sure it is a dream or hallucination.  Considering that they used the same freaky filming techniques for the previews for Soul Survivor when Dean tried to bite Sam, I think it's a mix of dream plus some reality. I think Dean is going to crack because fall finale reasons...

 

And him asking Cas to take him out if goes dark side, broke my heart.  :(.

[SueB]

 

Was Dean holding the blade in that closeup of someone's hand?

Yes, it was still sepia/grey toned - seemed part of that violent scene.

[Pete Martell]

What I would like, and which would never happen, is Crowley causing Dean to yet again go over the edge, and smugly handing him the blade...only for Dean to gut him like a fish, leaving Rowena (who has no real idea what she is doing, but loves a good fight and has crazy survival skills) to battle various minions for claims to Hell, saying she should get it, since she was the King's Mother, after all.

[SueB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrUtvrdV4wk&feature=youtu.be

 

EXTENDED promo.

1) Definitely a dream IMO.

2) F*cking awesome

 

Since we know Claire is the A-plot, I do think this is yet another misleading promo.  I expect Dean's dream early on. Claire plot brings in Cas. Cas/Dean conversation. Claire plot takes up most of the episode. C-plot is Crowley/Rowena. And final cliffhanger twist that screws up Dean with the Mark.

[catrox14]

JFC Dean's face in that promo is too much. Fuck you Jensen Ackles and your stupid perfect acting.  He looks so lost and helpless and confused.  Ugh.  

 

I'm not convinced all of it is a dream or hallucination. 

 

I am so scared for Dean.

 

But you know...here's the thing that has been bugging me for a while now. And I know I just have PTTDSLD (Post Traumatic Truncated Dean Storyline Disorder). I still worry that somehow the Mark is going to get passed to Sam.  

Edited December 3, 2014 by catrox14

[7kstar]

they better not give the mark to Sam, I swear I will hunt the writers down...

 

It will either be awful or will make everyone's head spin.  I agree with the Nightmare, and Dean meeting Cas alone.  The promo does give why Dean is lying to Sam.  But will Cas have the juice to kill Demon Dean, I mean he still has the issue of his grace dying, unless this ep fixes that one.  At least I hope it does.

[SueB]

I am so SUPREMELY confident that they will not give the Mark to Sam that I'm offering Diet Coke bets (or equivalent soft drink) to anyone who wants to take me up on this.  Seriously, I'll pay shipping and handling. 

 

In other news:

https://twitter.com/DearHeartxoxo/status/540312649897345025

 

A behind the scene pic from 10.13 filming.  Speculation by one poster that Sam is in the sling. Which implies flashback. I'd be on-board for that.  See if you think it's a sling....

 

And of course we have CAIN RETURNS in 10.14.  I'm ridiculously excited about that. 

 

So, let's review the bidding:

10.9 The Things We Left Behind: Castiel & Claire, Dean is apparently determined not to go darkside again. pics: http://www.spoilertv.com/2014/12/supernatural-episode-1009-things-we_38.html

10.10 There's No Place Like Home - first of two episodes with Charlie, she comes back with Oz (a changed woman) and brings something bad with her

10.11 No title yet - besides knowing Charlie is in it..I got nothing

10.12 About A Boy...

10.13 No title yet: we've got this pic and that's it

10.14 No title yet - Cain is back!

 

UPDATE: Sam is NOT in a sling for 10.13 per the original photographer

Edited December 4, 2014 by SueB

[oliverwendell]

That promo is FAB.  But if the Mark is disposed of at the mid-season mark, I will be seriously bummed.  At least the presence of Cain in a later episode gives me hope that it won't be.

[kimrey]

Wait, first of TWO Charlie episodes?  Where did you hear there would be two?  

 

Sorry.  Not a big Charlie fan.  I'm already bummed I have to sit through even one more episode of her.

Edited December 4, 2014 by kimrey

[SueB]

 

Wait, first of TWO Charlie episodes?  Where did you hear there would be two?

It was part of the 200th episode interviews (the fan watch party?) Sorry I don't have a link but I'm positive the term episodes was used and Felicia may have tweeted something about exhaustion after filming back to back episodes.  Fuzzy memory.

 

Update on the 10.13 -- Sam is NOT in a sling.  Someone asked the person taking pictures, somehow I got on the "reply" chain and the answer is he was holding a cell phone but not in a sling.  Tonight they crash a car into a telephone poll and the fan was going back out to take more pictures. 

[kimrey]

Oh, hm.  I'm pretty sure she was only filming for a week though?  I don't think she had enough time to do two episodes.  Maybe someone misspoke.  I'm going to go with that.

Edited December 4, 2014 by kimrey

[NoWillToResist]

And I'm so glad Dean is talking to Cas.  Can we just keep Cas? Please? 

 

I love that, once again, Dean will be opening himself up, being truthful to Cas, and making himself vulnerable. I love that he has this level of trust with someone.

 

That said, Hee! Oh, Dean. Cas' most basic programming is "keep Dean alive/safe/happy", so I don't know what you expect to happen there, love. :)

 

Perhaps he figures he can leverage Cas' love for him (which was recently acknowledged by Dean) into killing him if he will no longer BE Dean? And let's take a moment for the show recognizing that Dean wants Sam to be bypassed if he plans to intervene with Dean's wishes!

 

Equally, if Dean still has the MoC, how does he think he can be killed? The MoC brought him back last time, so how could Cas override that?? And if he can, why can't Cas just do that and then resurrect Dean?

 

I just hope Claire survives the episode. Have one of the good guys snap to the fact that she will have some of Cas' grace in her, suck it out (with her consent), and then send her on her way. Please don't kill her off!!

[SueB]

 

Equally, if Dean still has the MoC, how does he think he can be killed? The MoC brought him back last time, so how could Cas override that?? And if he can, why can't Cas just do that and then resurrect Dean?

Well he mentioned the "throw me into the sun" option.  Now Cas' wings aren't working, but maybe a volcano would do?  IDK.  Personally I think woodchipper is just as effective.  And per Cas, Holy Oil burns up angels (at least temporarily).

Seriously though, we've seen Angels resurrect those who were burned to ash (Adam).  We've seen God resurrect Cas who was vaporized (twice) and exploded.  So, in the SPN universe, God appears to be able to do whatever he pleases and the sun is not a barrier.  Archangels, however, I think have limits. I'm imbuing the Mark made by Lucifer with at least some of the power of an Archangel in this line of reasoning.  Now Raphael was the last Archangel, so when Godstiel vaporized him, I don't know for sure that we can say that an Archangel can/cannot bring a vaporized body back. Why this matters: well they could bring ash back to person (Adam) so...vaporized seems equivalent to ash (which also seems equivalent to the effects of a woodchipper and holy oil).  But no one brought Raphael back.  No one had the juice. 

 

So... given all this, I'm going to say that if he's thrown into the Sun - no coming back. If he's vaporized (woodchipper, burned up, potentially volcano), it's IFFY. Decapitation didn't stop Abaddon, so I'd say he'd recover from that. Same goes for cutting off his arm, it would re-attach.  Just stabbed -- meh, rinse and repeat -- he'd recover. 

 

Since I want precisely NONE of these for Dean, I'm hoping they come up with a different solution. 

 

Edited December 4, 2014 by SueB

[NoWillToResist]

 

Since I want precisely NONE of these for Dean, I'm hoping they come up with a different solution. 

 

My vote is for Cas to try and take on the MoC. Seems like the kind of self-sacrificing 'anything to save Dean' move that Cas would make.

 

Also, since his grace was able to sort of suppress Demon!Dean, maybe his grace could buffer him from the effects of the MoC...

[catrox14]

My vote is for Cas to try and take on the MoC. Seems like the kind of self-sacrificing 'anything to save Dean' move that Cas would make.

Also, since his grace was able to sort of suppress Demon!Dean, maybe his grace could buffer him from the effects of the MoC...

I think Cas' angel juice will prevent that happening. So I am left with going back to somehow the mark is passed to Sam. This show just cannot have Sam be the support person for Dean for an entire season without him going really darkside or be affected or hav e some kind of "action man" thing going on.

So I have a couple of theories working.

1) that Sam is going to take on the Mark by figuring out a spell OR it gets inadvertently passed to him because reasons like him taking on the trials after killing the hell hound to save Dean in s8. We saw Sam go dark in Mystery Spot and we saw Sam already go half-assed dark this season with Lester.

I think Sam give up the First Blade not solely to get Dean back but also because Crowley knows he some thing far worse than Lester. I can totally see Sam finding Cain with the help of Crowley but the stipulation is that Sam has to take on the mark to save Deans. Maybe somehow Sams demon blood thing is reactivated allowing Sam to take the Mark. Then Sam becomes the knight of Hell with Crowley because Crowley blackmails him and he does stuff we never saw Dean do nd then Dean goes into save Sammy mode and worries and frets over him because that's what they have always done. I may or may not be cynical.

Edited December 4, 2014 by catrox14

[Demented Daisy]

When Dean first got the MoC, I speculated that it would eventually transfer to Sam when he killed Dean.  In a sort of killing-your-brother-to-save-him Cain and Abel-type thing.  And, considering how they each get the other's story eventually....

 

But I can't see how the show would do that now.  What story could they tell with Sam that would be any different from when Dean had the Mark?

 

ETA  I can imagine one story, involving Sam actually being able to control the Mark, but that might piss off the fans even more than just giving Sam the Mark.  I hate even putting the idea out there.

Edited December 4, 2014 by Demented Daisy

[NoWillToResist]

 that Sam is going to take on the Mark by figuring out a spell OR it gets inadvertently passed to him because reasons like him taking on the trials after killing the hell hound to save Dean in s8.

 

Oh God, I don't think I can sit through another "Sam takes a story line away from Dean" debacle.

Edited December 4, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

I really hope I'm wrong. Really. But to your point

Why did Sam getting the trials "work"? He had to be purified because demon blood reasons. Since Sam never finished the trials maybe he's not as pure as we think. Since they already subverted Cain vs Abel by Cain killing Abel to save him from Lucifer, maybe Lucifer comes back to reclaim Sam.

A other idea: maybe they trot out the Auspice of Abel the pings on Sams demon blood thing and we get that fight. It would be better than him getting the MoC.

[SueB]

I go back to what Cain said about Dean being 'worthy'. Just this past episode Dean seemed to feel like the Mark wasn't pushing him. Could he have lied? Yeah, but I don't see much of an upside. In fact his admission lets Sam know it's had some effect. Now it's possible that Dean didn't really sort out the effect until it was 'absent'. That's not uncommon. And his revelation is almost as much of a surprise as it was for Sam. The relevance is that if Cain found Dean 'worthy', then maybe he felt Dean would be able to ultimately control the effect of the Mark. Cain did not strike me as evil. I think he wants to die and this is his shot (at Dean's hand). But I think he's waiting to see if Dean is controlling the Mark or if the Mark is controlling Dean. It's possible that Cain won't let himself be killed by Dean until he's certain it's in the right hands.

I think the chances are negative infinity that Dean willingly transfers the curse to Sam or frankly anyone else. Dean would probably love to give it back to Cain. But I don't think Cain will take it back unless he feels he has too.

I'm also not sure that this is a transfer that can be done without invoking free will. The recipient HAS to accept the Mark and likely the person who has it must give it up freely.

This is a Mark from one of the former God squad. It's not a spell. Luci couldn't wear Sam without Sam's permission. I'd be surprised if the Mark played by different rules.

Of course writers can make up any story, but other than the ancient lament that Sam gets Dean's plots, I see no support for this.

Edited December 4, 2014 by SueB

[catrox14]

Since the show is referencing the events of s8 in s10 repeatedly and have actively tied said events of the trials to the current plot of s10, I'm hard pressed to NOT be reminded of the flipping of that story line to Sam from Dean and yes I do lament that and that is not ancient history in the show. 

 

It took some contrivance IMO in s8 to give Sam the trials instead of Dean. So yes I remain a skeptic and I would not put it past TPTB to contrive another scenario that flips that from Dean to Sam. 

 

Regarding Cain's comments that Dean was "worthy".  I don't think Cain was evil either. I do think it was all tied to Cain watching Dean defeat 3 demons on his own without the Mark. That is what Cain deemed worthy. Dean said "So a killer?" and Cain didn't refute that. I don't think it had anything to do with Dean's ability to control the Mark.

Edited December 4, 2014 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

I think Cas' angel juice will prevent that happening. So I am left with going back to somehow the mark is passed to Sam. This show just cannot have Sam be the support person for Dean for an entire season without him going really darkside or be affected or hav e some kind of "action man" thing going on.

 

I don't see why Cas' angle juice should prevent it. If the mark came originally from Lucifer, it was then of angel origin and theoretically should be able to go back to an angel.

 

I moved the rest of my post over to the "All Episodes Talk" thread.

 

Highlights:

 

1) Sam was non-action guy from about season 6.5 through the first half of season 8, and support guy through season 7 to Dean's action guy.

2) Dean doesn't generally accept support from Sam * : example season 7 and currently

3) Based on how the trial plot went, I think it wouldn't have worked for Dean for various reasons, not the least of which would be that I wouldn't have believed that Dean would've stopped the trials because Sam asked him to.

 

* I'm starting to wonder if Dean and Sam are almost an Earl/Randy (From the so wrong, but so right "My Name Is Earl")  type relationship. If Dean is really much more comfortable in the "support" / big brother role and generally prefers it that way as the natural order of things and almost needs it to have a clarity of purpose (even as he protests he doesn't like it).

Edited December 4, 2014 by AwesomO4000

[Aeryn13]

 

ETA  I can imagine one story, involving Sam actually being able to control the Mark, but that might piss off the fans even more than just giving Sam the Mark.

 

Yup, on top of the injury of taking over the storyline as Mr.Big Kahuna Chosen One yet again, kicking Dean to the curb and of course making it bigger and better with Sam, the insult of making him Saintly McSpecial who can control it where of course that loser of a brother couldn`t? Chuck ME into the sun before having to watch that, it would be preferable. Also way to make Sam into an even bigger Sue. 

 

However, this time I don`t believe the Mark will be transfered. From the moment Dean got it, I knew that once Tim Omundson was announced to do another guest stint, that would be the end of it. Now he has so it will. No idea how but we got the lame capturing of Demon!Dean with some measly holy water that looked like it took no effort at all and we got the even lamer cure. So if Cain waves his hand three times and the MOC is simply gone from Dean, this would probably something the show does.

 

Once more I`m annoyed that they did so little with it. It was a supernatural storyline but for the most part they didn`t play it big and epic and Dean didn`t get multiple strings of episodes with flashy superpowers. It didn`t end with a big validation of his worth. He didn`t get to have a success in overcoming it himself. Noone told him he was strong not to have fallen to evil  or pimped him to the high heavens. And he didn`t get a huge episode dedicated to him saving the world in "redemption" where everyone else looked on like slack-jawed yokels who had no point. 

 

And after it`s gone, the character will once again have nothing. It will be dropped like Purgatory was. Maybe angst, guilt and shame. Wow, how exciting and fresh.

 

Maybe afterwards Sam gets another storyline of his own or it will be just about Crowley and his Mom.

[rue721]

I think the chances are negative infinity that Dean willingly transfers the curse to Sam or frankly anyone else. Dean would probably love to give it back to Cain. But I don't think Cain will take it back unless he feels he has too.

I'm also not sure that this is a transfer that can be done without invoking free will. The recipient HAS to accept the Mark and likely the person who has it must give it up freely.

This is a Mark from one of the former God squad. It's not a spell. Luci couldn't wear Sam without Sam's permission. I'd be surprised if the Mark played by different rules.

 

Could Dean give it to Lucifer somehow? Seems like it would be the most just solution, since it's Lucifer's fault it even exists.

 

Personally, I'm afraid of the MoC influencing Dean in some way (delusions, paranoia, going berserk, Idk) that he kills Sam. Maybe with the mistaken idea that he's protecting Sam, or maybe with the mistaken idea that Lucifer and Sam are conspiring somehow, or maybe even just by accident like while he's losing it in a kill-gasm during a melee? Killing Sam would be Dean's REAL worst nightmare imo, even worse than becoming a demon.

 

Would Sam go to Hell if he died now? The thing of him needing to be purified for the Trials, but then failing the Trials, is what makes me wonder about whether he's barred from Heaven? I don't remember S8 or S9 really at all, though, so my speculation based on it probably should be given more than one grain of salt.

 

Maybe afterwards Sam gets another storyline of his own or it will be just about Crowley and his Mom.

 

Isn't it kind of funny that it's Crowley's *mom* (rather than his dad)? I mean since basically every other mom on the show has been a saint or a hapless victim or both. Everyone else is all about the daddy issues. Even Crowley's own kid was all about the daddy issues!

Edited December 4, 2014 by rue721

[SueB]

Appropos of nothing:

 

into an even bigger Sue

Can I just say...I hate that my name is considered a negative character trait. And it's a boring name to begin with.  At least if it was a cool name, I could live with the negative trope association.  But NO.. it's plain and boring and apparently evil. Yeesh. /rant off

 

Carrying on...

 

 

 

Could Dean give it to Lucifer somehow? Seems like it would be the most just solution, since it's Lucifer's fault it even exists.

I don't want ANYONE near Luci's cage. As much as I love Mark Pellegrino, I don't want Lucifer reappearing.

 

Besides... look at what the Mark represents - the Father of Murder.  Are there any cosmological consequences from destroying the Mark somehow?

 

 

Would Sam go to Hell if he died now? The thing of him needing to be purified for the Trials, but then failing the Trials, is what makes me wonder about whether he's barred from Heaven?

  Well Sam didn't actually FAIL the trials, he just didn't complete them. So, my thinking is that IF Sam had completed the trials he would have gone to Heaven.  Clearly the blood HAD been purified as it was working on Crowley. Sam had to have offered a sincere confession of his sins in order for the blood to be purified. So...he was probably square with God at that moment. THEN, if he had completed the trials, as Naomi said -- it would have been the "ultimate sacrifice" for humanity.  That sorta gets you a ride on the up escalator in my opinion. 

 

But now?  Oooohhh. Now I'm not so sure. He's had another 18 months of living. And we've seen at least one kinda grave sin there with leading Lester down the "selling your soul" path.  I think the writers want us to believe he's done some bad shit right there.  Plus he didn't use his own blood (either to prevent the trials from re-activating or because he wasn't sure he could get purified again).  I believe he COULD get purified again but I'm not sure if Sam thinks so.

 

But I don't think there is anything about Sam that bars him from Heaven.  He needs to be contrite about doing bad things (IMO) but nothing supernatural is in the way.  Dean OTOH, it's not looking good.  And that pisses me off.  But if Dean dies, he's a demon. Down escalator all the way.  I'm hoping they come up with SOME resolution that allows Dean to make his own life choices and have redemption if that's what he wants.  I dislike anything supernatural preventing Dean from going to Heaven.  Yes, Dean choose to take on the Mark without understanding consequences, but I'm positive he didn't see "become a demon" as an option. 

[catrox14]

Things We Left Behind clip

 

meep

 

[SueB]

1) I love that FREAKING clip. In just about every possible way.

2) Damn you CW for giving up what is probably the BEST scene of the episode in a promo.  Seriously, how can the rest of the episode live up to that?  It can't.  Which means it's likely going to be let-down city if you think the episode is about Dean.

3) Specifics (so...if you've avoided watching the clip..be warned...safeties off here in my comments):

- WHY can't we have Cas back for every f*cking episode? I know, I know... it's like looking directly at the sun for some people. And then the queerbaiting insults will begin.  But dammit, I adore the friendship of these two and I'd like it on screen more often than once every 9 episodes.  *sigh*

- Little PERFECT touches: Mid-life crisis/I'm entitled, Cas' face or 'that's bullshit' as Dean provides mentally healthy advice, not a role model/yes you are, Cas not letting Dean pretend he's okay

- Dean cutting to the chase about taking him out - brooking no argument.  I'm looking forward to what Cas' answer will be (or if he avoids giving an answer because Dean is kind of in steam-roller mode)

 

So...as catrox14 said more succinctly ....meep.

 

Now I need to remind myself on an hourly basis that this is likely the best scene and everything will pale in comparison.

Edited December 5, 2014 by SueB

[rue721]

I don't want ANYONE near Luci's cage. As much as I love Mark Pellegrino, I don't want Lucifer reappearing.

 

Besides... look at what the Mark represents - the Father of Murder.  Are there any cosmological consequences from destroying the Mark somehow?

 

[...]

 

But I don't think there is anything about Sam that bars him from Heaven.  He needs to be contrite about doing bad things (IMO) but nothing supernatural is in the way.  Dean OTOH, it's not looking good.  And that pisses me off.  But if Dean dies, he's a demon. Down escalator all the way.  I'm hoping they come up with SOME resolution that allows Dean to make his own life choices and have redemption if that's what he wants.  I dislike anything supernatural preventing Dean from going to Heaven.  Yes, Dean choose to take on the Mark without understanding consequences, but I'm positive he didn't see "become a demon" as an option. 

 

I keep feeling like Lucifer's going to come into play (maybe not in person/on-screen, maybe just as someone that's referred to as an issue) because of Cain's story, which iIrc was all about Lucifer getting into Abel's head and Cain needing to save his brother from him (by killing Abel, natch) -- Lucifer was/is in Sam's head, too. I feel like the show is just bound to make the parallel between Cain/Abel and Dean/Sam stronger and stronger. I'm worried that somehow, like Cain, Dean will become convinced that he's saving or protecting his brother (from Lucifer?) by killing him.

 

Worst case scenario, imo, is if Dean kills Sam, Sam gets sent to Hell, and Crowley puts Sam back in the Cage. I literally can't think of anything worse for either of them.

 

OTOH, "Knights of Hell are handpicked by Lucifer himself" -- wasn't that a thing with Abaddon? So maybe it's Dean that has the (unwitting) connection to Lucifer.

 

3) Specifics (so...if you've avoided watching the clip..be warned...safeties off here in my comments):

- WHY can't we have Cas back for every f*cking episode? I know, I know... it's like looking directly at the sun for some people. And then the queerbaiting insults will begin.  But dammit, I adore the friendship of these two and I'd like it on screen more often than once every 9 episodes.  *sigh*

 

Tbh, that clip was just way too treacly for my taste. "Looking directly into the sun" is a good way to describe it. Cas and Dean's friendship doesn't make sense to me in general -- but YMMV, obviously lots of people love it. Personally, my favorite SLs for Cas were:  the thing about him being a Grace Vampire (wish they would go back to that, it was creepy as fuck) or during that short time when he was human and working his way up the income ladder (I loved how seriously he took it, he honestly won me over a lot during that storyline!).

 

Dean needs to come up with some other fail-safe aside from having this poor angel, who apparently loves him unconditionally, promise to take him out back if he goes too far. Even if Castiel were able to do that, which imo he *might* be able to just out of his strong sense of duty, what's going to happen then, he's going to go all Dark!Willow?

[catrox14]

I am really curious why you think Cas and Dean as friends makes no sense.

I think Dean asking Cas to smite him makes perfect sense. Cas is Dean's best friend. They have an amazing history of being war buddies and friends. who better than your best friend who has the power to do it. To me Cas would view it as an act of love to save Dean from a fate worse than death.

Edited December 5, 2014 by catrox14