Spoilers With Speculation

[gonzosgirrl]

7 hours ago, Jakes said:

Alex was talking about the birth mom...I guess the question was why Cas and not the mom, so Alex answered it that way.  From what Misha said it's a new iteration of Cas...another new one, instead of one he already did.  I think it's possible that an angel or 2 might end up with same vessels.

Yeah, the angel or two they already have on the payroll.

[Castiels Cat]

46 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Not gonna lie-I thought of this pic, too, when I heard that he mentioned lots of physicality for Dean in the finale.

That pic is a classic and legendary within the Dean fandom.

That photo is a thing of beauty.  I may start reading fanfic.  SIGH.

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I was reading some of the quotes from this weeks' convention, and I'm paraphrasing here, but Jared made mention of how he was starting to really hate the life, and wanted out, but after speaking with his TV brother, he's changed his mind.  This makes sense in light of all of the talk last year about ending the show and walking away from television.  Our desire to see them move on to other projects, notwithstanding, I think they fully realize just what a unique situation they're in with this show.  I really don't think you can discount the family atmosphere as one of the most important factors.  It's not like other sets they've worked on, it's truly a family of cast and crew who've been together for 13 years.  

Jensen and Jared also have a unique situation with their families at home.  Yes, I'm sure they miss their families when they're not at home, but with skype and facetime, they can see their kids and talk to them all the time.  No, it's not the same as being there, but it's close.  And knowing that Gen and Danneel also have a close bond does make it like on extended family.  Whatever it is, it works for them, so I can fully understand why they'd be content to just ride it out.  And that's without factoring in the fan side of things, the conventions, the help lines, etc.  

Maybe they received a sweet signing deal too.  CW needs them.  The Superhero shows keep losing their lustre too quickly.  Supernatural keeps its audience and performs solidly. 

I do wish they had given Constantine his own show rather than stuck him on LoT.

It is not hard to do a good horror show.  Fox has done two outstanding seasons of the Exorcist and the last season of  the X-files produced the two best series episodes EVER  despite having the worst character arc for Scully thanks to Chris Carter.  She will not be coming back because of how she was treated which is a shame because Scully is the X-Files much like Abbie Mills was Sleepy Hollow.

[Castiels Cat]

8 hours ago, Jakes said:

Some Con Tweets from England:

 

--next episode big bro hug

--Some of next year set up...Richard directing episodes 2+6

--Misha described as really happy, smiley, relaxed

--Alex answers Jack saved Cas instead of Mom because knows Cas is his savior

--Alex calls Jack...Jack Winchester

--Briana wanted to change hair color to pink, studio said no to changing hair.  Also says Wayward decision next week

--Misha says he has a new iteration of Cas coming.  Tree Topper thinks he's playing AU Cas next episode along with regular Cas too...an episode where Misha says he uses a different voice.

--Jared says big cliffhanger in finale

--Jensen says in Finale he had 2 full days of something really challenging...was really challenging physically and was tougher than anything he had to do in a long time.

 

 

The Alex stuff leads me to believe Jack does NOT get converted by Lucifer...at least not for long.  What Jensen says is intriguing--what makes it so physical?

Dean!Michael match.

I have pink hair. I love it. 

If the studio will not let her change it is WS a go go?

[Castiels Cat]

23 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I wouldn`t actually hold up the SPN writers as literary geniuses. They do a lot of "throwing random shit at a wall and seeing what sticks". 

Personally I was dismayed to yet again hear that they are working on how to get out of the cliffhanger from Season 13. Seriously? Again? Can they not for once make longterm plans? I`m not saying do something like Whedon in Buffy when he in the Season 2 Finale made cryptic references to "Little Miss Muffet" and "counting down to 720" and it meant there would be a younger sister character introduced two years aka 720 days later. But at least think out how the new character will be worked into longterm once you come up with the idea of that character.   

I hated Dawn with a passion...  partly the actress.  I rather liked the aspect of dealing with changes...  I loved Once More With Feeling, The Body, everything Spike... everything Willow... the Zeppo!,,, everything Anya...the trio! 

I hated a lot of the storylines and I could not understand everyone turning against her at the end and trusting Faith except for Spike.  I hated the other Slayers. Too many characters in too little time and most were far too lame.  

Lord how I loved Spike earning redemption for Buffy.  

[Castiels Cat]

12 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

At this point - of no real set-up onscreen - what would make the most sense is Rowena freeing Michael somehow because she needs archangel grace to re-open the rift, Michael is for some reason sporting young John (don`t question it, it will not work if you question it  :) and he wanders through the rift. 

There needs to be something at a church setting with the stained glass window to act as "foreshadowing". Maybe have it be a scene with AU!Michael where he boasts noone can defeat him - maybe except himself. 

In AU-world there is a huge spectacle going on with AU!Michael kicking everyone`s ass and several people in peril as well as AU!Mike about to enter our world for more conquering. Our!Michael will happen upon Dean and go with the "say yes and I`ll help" proposal. 

For extra-kinks the characters are alone when that happens and Dean does say "yes" so when he wanders into the line of sight of the others again, they will be like "OMG, what`s happening". Maybe minus the angels who should be able to see. 

Michael manages to defeat Michael and then...wanders off with Dean. He puts on period clothes and wanders down a street. Ahem. 

Yes, I know it is flimsy. But it`s not like the show is overall doing much better with their story set-ups and plot logic.

Oh, and this is only me outlining any kind of plausible set-up for Dean`s part at this point. I get no idea what the other parts are gonna be.

Yes.  More or less how I think things will play out. They used the Christian Messiah iconography in the set design a lot with Dean in season 4/5...

And as I pointed out elsewhere killing Gog and Magog is considered a harbinger of the Apocalypse in Jewish tradition and they are killed by the Messiah.  Michael is often conflated with the Messiah in OT tradition.  They are substituting AU Michael for Lucifer and Dean killed Gog and Magog...

Rowena would appear to be the link which makes sense because she is the only one that can transfer him outside of the cage and she lives and is now TFW and they devoted an entire episode to her emotional crisis and redemption as well as several episodes showing us those peaks of humanity.

As to a vessel ... ehh... He can any old body as a temporary vessel to drain the grace and he can appear to Dean as John.  We have seen Lucifer do this.

But yes. Rowena is smart.  It is the most straightforward solution. She has the means.  And she is alive for a reason.  And they didn't just stock up on syringes and draw a bunch of grace out just in case to have on hand over there as plan B.  Dean always has a plan B...

So yeah... this.

[Castiels Cat]

23 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But then along came "The Thing' and disproved that. It might not have produced the result they wanted, but the rebel MoL opened a portal in 1917.

They don't t even hold canon episode to episode. Guess continuity wasn't part of that master class.

Lol canon exists mostly because they inexplicably do not have a show bible and some writers do not watch the entirety of the show as homework. 

And the Nepotism Duo are in a class of their own.

Asmodeus injecting archangel grace is inexcusable.

Rogue reapers.   Reapers are suddenly angels.  All angels cannot teleport yet reapers can?!!@#$@

And yet they have built up Dean's emotional arc over these past two seasons, tied it to his reoccurring m.o. and tragic flaw that developed over los ing Mary, mirrored Sam and Mary  in storylines effectively amplifying Dean's anguish over two seasons about her, signaled the oncoming Apocalypse subtextualky by rebooting character arcs, storylines and themes...

And in contrast to some people's opinions, the writing had not shortchanged Dean.  Dean is a character defined by his emotions and his relationships.  His mytharc roles are always generated by emotional triggers. His heroic impulses are always generated by emotional triggers.. in season 5 Chuck tells Dean rhat he is CHANGING THE STORY by showing up at Stull. This is God telling a character that I am letting you stop the Apocalypse because you love your brother. In season 11 God answers only to Dean and once again Dean gets to choose how the story ends and Dean's emotional connection to Amara enables him to empathize with her and reason with her and save the world.

And last season Dean kept trying to save Mary and it was very important for him to risk his life to save her, far more important than any lane add sci-fi movie of the week raid on the BMOL...

And then he lost her again... just like he lost Sammy... to an Apocalypse... to a void that closed up with Lucifer.  And now Dean has lost his mother so many times and he had kostcSam so many times and he is so broken and so done and I think he is sure that this little rescue mission is doomed.

So they have connected Dean's mental state to the tragic family history starting at the Pilot. They have referenced his ongoing depression and guilt when he fails to protect his people and how tbis eventually drives him towards a game changing self sacrificial move, driven by loss.  The loss can be death, threat of death or alienation of family... we have seen all three.  Often the sacrifice also involves gaining a win too against some adversary.  And in case one has not been paying attention they gave us a dry run in Advanced Thanotology.

This is some mighty fine writing in my opinion.

Last season was hard to get through and I stopped taping despite knowing full well we were heading to Apocalypse 2.0 and Dean!Michael.  That knowledge is the only thing rhat kept me watching.  

Now I plan to start reviewing again.  This season is not perfect but they have done this very well. 

And I am in the minority on this... I think they have done an excellent job with Mary. She is written exactly like Sam and Dean combined, warts and all.  And I like Jack so far... And AU Apocalypse.... we have seen enough to get the picture.  We are not watching AU Apocalypse are we.

Did I need to see Kill Loki.  No.  But the show loves filler.  It is the format.

[SueB]

IA with @Castiels Cat that Rowena looking for a way to keep the rift open is a smart avenue for getting to Michael, and she has the means to do so.  But there's a LOT of 'why' and 'how' on Michael's behalf that get in the way (why would he help Team Free Will), how will Rowena be able to control him once she lets him out, what vessel does he take thru the rift, etc....   So, Rowena seems like the avenue but the logistics seems difficult.  

Again, presuming it's Michael and not someone else. 

[Castiels Cat]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

IA with @Castiels Cat that Rowena looking for a way to keep the rift open is a smart avenue for getting to Michael, and she has the means to do so.  But there's a LOT of 'why' and 'how' on Michael's behalf that get in the way (why would he help Team Free Will), how will Rowena be able to control him once she lets him out, what vessel does he take thru the rift, etc....   So, Rowena seems like the avenue but the logistics seems difficult.  

Again, presuming it's Michael and not someone else. 

They have set it up for Dean!Michael IMO.

Logistics yes... this is the wild card. At first I was inclined to dismiss Luci's trash talk of crazy Michael but given how everyone hss mental health issues I think that it is a given thst he does too which likely will figure into his goals in saying yes, next year's mytharc and that suit.

He may not like the idea of another universe's Michael taking over.  Maybe he wants revenge. Maybe he wants to torture Lucifer slowly for hundreds of Cage years of off key singing.  Knowing the writers it most likely will be some juvenile reason.  I do not know.  

Maybe Rowena magically compels him.  She is suoerwitch now isn't she.

They only have two episodes so it cannot be too complicated.  They have to set-up the cliff hanger at the least and have a meaningful Jack/Lucifer confrontation.  Dean needs a final trigger moment.  AU Michael needs to kill, main, grandstand and start to cross over.  Somebody dies. Mary disappoints.  Jack does something bad or good but it is not enough.  Sam needs to look guilty apparently.

So Rowena does not have a lot of time to do her magic.

23 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

The writers strike affected the storyline for S3.  Sam was supposed to go darkside to save Dean.  They ended up not having enough time to tell that story (remember when they actually developed storylines over an entire season?) so it was scrapped for the Cain/Abel Angel apocalypse mythology instead.

Speculation because it did not happen.. No writers strike during Revolution and that had a revolving door for storylines.

Kripke threw things at the wall.

Edited May 6, 2018 by Castiels Cat

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

They have set it up for Dean!Michael IMO.

Logistics yes... this is the wild card. At first I was inclined to dismiss Luci's trash talk of crazy Michael but given how everyone hss mental health issues I think that it is a given thst he does too which likely will figure into his goals in saying yes, next year's mytharc and that suit.

He may not like the idea of another universe's Michael taking over.  Maybe he wants revenge. Maybe he wants to torture Lucifer slowly for hundreds of Cage years of off key singing.  Knowing the writers it most likely will be some juvenile reason.  I do not know.  

Maybe Rowena magically compels him.  She is suoerwitch now isn't she.

They only have two episodes so it cannot be too complicated.  They have to set-up the cliff hanger at the least and have a meaningful Jack/Lucifer confrontation.  Dean needs a final trigger moment.  AU Michael needs to kill, main, grandstand and start to cross over.  Somebody dies. Mary disappoints.  Jack does something bad or good but it is not enough.  Sam needs to look guilty apparently.

So Rowena does not have a lot of time to do her magic.

Speculation because it did not happen.. No writers strike during Revolution and that had a revolving door for storylines.

Kripke threw things at the wall.

No not speculation.  It is actually what Kripke said.  I read volumes of The Supernatural magazines from the EK years.

[SueB]

22 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

No not speculation.  It is actually what Kripke said.  I read volumes of The Supernatural magazines from the EK years.

IA.  I think it was also in the 200th episode special.  They were going to have Sam go darkside to save Dean but had insuffiicent time, so they let Dean go to hell.  During hiatus they decided to have an angel rescue him. 

Now, I DON'T know what was the scope of Sam going darkside.  Was it always to break out Lucifer?  Was it to lead some demon incursion?  IDK.  But Angels & "the righteous man" came out of sending Dean actually to Hell.  And that was a function of the writer's strike.

[Castiels Cat]

21 minutes ago, SueB said:

IA.  I think it was also in the 200th episode special.  They were going to have Sam go darkside to save Dean but had insuffiicent time, so they let Dean go to hell.  During hiatus they decided to have an angel rescue him. 

Now, I DON'T know what was the scope of Sam going darkside.  Was it always to break out Lucifer?  Was it to lead some demon incursion?  IDK.  But Angels & "the righteous man" came out of sending Dean actually to Hell.  And that was a function of the writer's strike.

What Kripke said in hindsight is speculatory because he did not write it and the guy does not have a track record of stoccking to plans. REVOLUTION was whiplash inducing.  I think he is an idea mam who does not tbink very hard about things.

His original pitch was a rip off of the Night Stalker and I believe that the first script did not have a brother so the story was always a work in progress and the writers strike or the studio are always convenient scapegoats.  

Without Jensen Ackles or Kim Manners I seriously doubt the show would have been as I'm good as it became.  Jensen built the character of Dean far beyond the cardboard construct of bullet point characteristics imagined by Singer and Kripke and Manners had rare vision and a deep well of knowledge to draw upon.  And their contributes along with some good writing talent elevated the show to something quite special.

Kripke has a career because of it.  I doubt lightening will strike twice for him though although he did try to replicate Dean in Revolution with Monroe. 

Apparently he wrote a movie in production starting Cate Blanchett?!!  

[SueB]

19 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

What Kripke said in hindsight is speculatory because he did not write it and the guy does not have a track record of stoccking to plans. REVOLUTION was whiplash inducing.  I think he is an idea mam who does not tbink very hard about things.

His original pitch was a rip off of the Night Stalker and I believe that the first script did not have a brother so the story was always a work in progress and the writers strike or the studio are always convenient scapegoats.  

Without Jensen Ackles or Kim Manners I seriously doubt the show would have been as I'm good as it became.  Jensen built the character of Dean far beyond the cardboard construct of bullet point characteristics imagined by Singer and Kripke and Manners had rare vision and a deep well of knowledge to draw upon.  And their contributes along with some good writing talent elevated the show to something quite special.

Kripke has a career because of it.  I doubt lightening will strike twice for him though although he did try to replicate Dean in Revolution with Monroe. 

Apparently he wrote a movie in production starting Cate Blanchett?!!  

Taking to all seasons as this is not a spoiler.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

What Kripke said in hindsight is speculatory because he did not write it and the guy does not have a track record of stoccking to plans. REVOLUTION was whiplash inducing.  I think he is an idea mam who does not tbink very hard about things.

His original pitch was a rip off of the Night Stalker and I believe that the first script did not have a brother so the story was always a work in progress and the writers strike or the studio are always convenient scapegoats.  

Without Jensen Ackles or Kim Manners I seriously doubt the show would have been as I'm good as it became.  Jensen built the character of Dean far beyond the cardboard construct of bullet point characteristics imagined by Singer and Kripke and Manners had rare vision and a deep well of knowledge to draw upon.  And their contributes along with some good writing talent elevated the show to something quite special.

Kripke has a career because of it.  I doubt lightening will strike twice for him though although he did try to replicate Dean in Revolution with Monroe. 

Apparently he wrote a movie in production starting Cate Blanchett?!!  

Taking my response to All Seasons

[Jonesy]

One bit that I thought was funny from the Con--was the boys saying when the script directs Dean and Cas to stare hard at each other...it goes that they Eye F**** each other.  I'm sure some will love that detail, and some hate it--lol!

[Myrelle]

On ‎5‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 5:31 AM, Aeryn13 said:

At this point - of no real set-up onscreen - what would make the most sense is Rowena freeing Michael somehow because she needs archangel grace to re-open the rift, Michael is for some reason sporting young John (don`t question it, it will not work if you question it  :) and he wanders through the rift. 

There needs to be something at a church setting with the stained glass window to act as "foreshadowing". Maybe have it be a scene with AU!Michael where he boasts noone can defeat him - maybe except himself. 

In AU-world there is a huge spectacle going on with AU!Michael kicking everyone`s ass and several people in peril as well as AU!Mike about to enter our world for more conquering. Our!Michael will happen upon Dean and go with the "say yes and I`ll help" proposal. 

For extra-kinks the characters are alone when that happens and Dean does say "yes" so when he wanders into the line of sight of the others again, they will be like "OMG, what`s happening". Maybe minus the angels who should be able to see. 

Michael manages to defeat Michael and then...wanders off with Dean. He puts on period clothes and wanders down a street. Ahem. 

Yes, I know it is flimsy. But it`s not like the show is overall doing much better with their story set-ups and plot logic.

Oh, and this is only me outlining any kind of plausible set-up for Dean`s part at this point. I get no idea what the other parts are gonna be.

Do we know if Billie is going to make an appearance in either of these last two?

IA that Rowena will open the cage, but I'm wondering if it might not be at Dean's behest; and I'm thinking that it will either be JDM or Matt Cohen who will be Michael's host while in the cage. My money is actually on JDM, though, tbh.

I can't stop ruminating on the finale. It is ridiculous. I hope it's worth it.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

IA that Rowena will open the cage, but I'm wondering if it might not be at Dean's behest; and I'm thinking that it will either be JDM or Matt Cohen who will be Michael's host while in the cage. My money is actually on JDM, though, tbh.

I can't stop ruminating on the finale. It is ri

I don't know how it would JDM or Matt other than Dean might have been more affected by young John!Michael more than seeing Adam!Michael so that's who he sees? Kind of like some (not me) have the headcanon that it's Nickifer because that's who Sam saw the most? 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Do we know if Billie is going to make an appearance in either of these last two?

IA that Rowena will open the cage, but I'm wondering if it might not be at Dean's behest; and I'm thinking that it will either be JDM or Matt Cohen who will be Michael's host while in the cage. My money is actually on JDM, though, tbh.

According to the spoiler tumblr, no but she is only guessing based on actor`s tweets or who has been spotted. So she could be.

JDM, I`m really not sure. To be honest, I think the CW or even WB would make them promote the hell out of it. If they wanted to keep it secret or not. The studio or network executives have more pull on such decisions.

Matt Cohen is marked down as a possibility because he had to miss a Con that was going on during time of shooting for work commitments. This could have been General Hospital, of course. But could also have been for SPN. And that later twitter convo with him and I forgot who it was from sPN could have been genuine or could have been subterfuge.  

Quote

I don't know how it would JDM or Matt other than Dean might have been more affected by young John!Michael more than seeing Adam!Michael so that's who he sees?

You can always handwave it with "archangels can easily shapeshift". Weak-ass Gabriel did it without problems in the last episode. 

And young!John was the one Dean had a conversation with as Michael. They could easily put on a clip from that episode, with Michael saying "you are my true vessel" or something in the previouslies for the Finale and then IF Michael showed up in young John, viewers would easily make the connection because of that clip. 

This doesn`t work with JDM. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And young!John was the one Dean had a conversation with as Michael. They could easily put on a clip from that episode, with Michael saying "you are my true vessel" or something in the previouslies for the Finale and then IF Michael showed up in young John, viewers would easily make the connection because of that clip. 

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Thanks for articulating it better :)

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You can always handwave it with "archangels can easily shapeshift". Weak-ass Gabriel did it without problems in the la

I thought only Gabriel could shapeshift because he had taken on the Trickster's aspects within him and it changed his grace. And why Asmodeus could shift because he was siphoning Gabriel's grace.  Shapeshifting archangels would be a major retcon. If they can shapeshift why would they need to possess anyone?

[Aeryn13]

After what Gabriel could do both in Mystery Spot and in Changing Channels, I think appearing to someone as someone else would be a low totem-pole ability. Eve could manage that and I think she is below archangels in power. I wouldn`t see it as a big deal if they could make people see whatever they wanted. Be it in dreams (like Lucifer appeared to Sam as "Jessica") or in waking state.  

[Myrelle]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

After what Gabriel could do both in Mystery Spot and in Changing Channels, I think appearing to someone as someone else would be a low totem-pole ability. Eve could manage that and I think she is below archangels in power. I wouldn`t see it as a big deal if they could make people see whatever they wanted. Be it in dreams (like Lucifer appeared to Sam as "Jessica") or in waking state.  

Reapers can do it too. So it should be easy-peasy for an archangel. The vessel is needed to walk the earth-or at least that used to be the canon. Not sure if that's been retconned yet, though. :-/

[Aeryn13]

The more I think about it, the more I`m becoming convinced that the previouslies of this next episode should give us a clue as to the Finale. IF Rowena frees Michael or something, they need to bring audiences up to speed on Prime!Michael`s current state. And this would happen most likely via "previously on..."

If there is even a hint of clip of Matt Cohen as Mike in it, it`s all but guaranteed.

I`m a bit bamboozled why they keep everything so under wraps and nothing has been set-up in the storyline onscreen so far. They spoiled the fact that Jensen will play a different character which will most certainly be, if not THE cliffhanger, a big part of it, weeks in advance. So obviously, the main spoiler is already out.  

Kinda remains me of the old spoof-comedy "Airplane" where the Ted Stryker character can spill all the details of an immiment attack of his bomber squad to his girlfriend but he just can`t tell when he is coming back - because THAT is top secret. :) 

Edited May 7, 2018 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

A couple of days of intense physical challenge doesn’t seem like sucking in ArchAngel grace.  We are missing something here.  

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, SueB said:

A couple of days of intense physical challenge doesn’t seem like sucking in ArchAngel grace.  We are missing something here.  

I'd say maybe he's tortured into submission, but that doesn't sound like Dean 'stepping up'.

[belbar]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd say maybe he's tortured into submission, but that doesn't sound like Dean 'stepping up'.

Don't forget the 30 years of torture in Hell. If he could stand that a couple of days now would mean nothing. And I don't think that Dean will forget anytime soon what happened when he conceded to the torture the last time.

No, I don't know what's coming but I don't think that Dean would surrender to torture. Now, torturing someone else could be a totally different scenario, but that would not explain the challenging part for Jensen.  It must have something to do with whatever Jensen had to do to become the new character. Dean will have to go through something physically challenging for Jensen. Not so easy I think. The man is athletic.

[gonzosgirrl]

33 minutes ago, belbar said:

Don't forget the 30 years of torture in Hell. If he could stand that a couple of days now would mean nothing. And I don't think that Dean will forget anytime soon what happened when he conceded to the torture the last time.

No, I don't know what's coming but I don't think that Dean would surrender to torture. Now, torturing someone else could be a totally different scenario, but that would not explain the challenging part for Jensen.  It must have something to do with whatever Jensen had to do to become the new character. Dean will have to go through something physically challenging for Jensen. Not so easy I think. The man is athletic.

Too funny, I very nearly wrote that when I posted (I think we have a psychic connection today). I don't think it's that either -just throwing out what could be physically challenging. I'm wondering if he's playing dual characters and then he (real Dean) has to either 'die' or go into hiding, disappear somehow so the other entity can exist.

[SueB]

I wonder if Dean plays AU Michael.  Here's the reason.... the actor (Christian Keyes) was going to be the "Big Bad" but then didn't lock him down as a regular.  And now he's got a 2 different TV shows he appears in.  

So, if they couldn't leverage Christian, maybe they had to redirect and just have him back for the finale.  Somehow he loses his vessel and Dean is who he has to go in to.  Maybe the physical challenge isn't Michael going in but the confrontation leading up to having to make that decision.  Maybe Dean takes on AU Michael alone (because he's pulling a "Dean Winchester" and he has some weapon or other element that helps him).  

 

Anyway, just thinking about it, I'm not sure we're factoring in the impact of Christian Keyes NOT playing the big bad this year except "offscreen".

[Casseiopeia]

9 minutes ago, SueB said:

I wonder if Dean plays AU Michael.  Here's the reason.... the actor (Christian Keyes) was going to be the "Big Bad" but then didn't lock him down as a regular.  And now he's got a 2 different TV shows he appears in.  

So, if they couldn't leverage Christian, maybe they had to redirect and just have him back for the finale.  Somehow he loses his vessel and Dean is who he has to go in to.  Maybe the physical challenge isn't Michael going in but the confrontation leading up to having to make that decision.  Maybe Dean takes on AU Michael alone (because he's pulling a "Dean Winchester" and he has some weapon or other element that helps him).  

 

Anyway, just thinking about it, I'm not sure we're factoring in the impact of Christian Keyes NOT playing the big bad this year except "offscreen".

It has always been one of the most iconic traits of Dean Winchester for me that he is the most formidable human on the planet.  He has never needed any superpowers in order to defeat any of the big bads.  I can see him (like he did with Loki) going on his own to take on whoever ends up needing killing in the season finale.  Jensen said it was the most physically difficult 2 days of filming he has had in several years.  I can see how it might end up having to make a Kobayashi Maru choice in order to save everyone.

 

I didn't know that about CK.  That explains why we haven't seen him at all the last few months.

[gonzosgirrl]

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

It has always been one of the most iconic traits of Dean Winchester for me that he is the most formidable human on the planet.  He has never needed any superpowers in order to defeat any of the big bads.  I can see him (like he did with Loki) going on his own to take on whoever ends up needing killing in the season finale.  Jensen said it was the most physically difficult 2 days of filming he has had in several years.  I can see how it might end up having to make a Kobayashi Maru choice in order to save everyone.

 

I didn't know that about CK.  That explains why we haven't seen him at all the last few months.

AU!Michael seemed to just want to be in a new, non-apocalypse world. Maybe after psychically grueling fight, AU!s vessel is damaged, but Michael is still alive/strong, threatening to find another vessel to continue the fight.  Dean agrees to be his vessel if Michael agrees to leave humanity alone in exchange for living peacefully in our world.

Edited May 7, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[belbar]

23 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I can see how it might end up having to make a Kobayashi Maru choice in order to save everyone.

I could see something like that. It's very Dean like. If he doesn't agree to it (whatever it is) or if he doesn't succeed, people he cares about will die or be hurt. But if he agrees or make it happen, those people will be safe but Dean will be no more (at least for a while in the show) because he'll be another character, or Dean will die and then Billie's statement would make sense (the no win situation). But still, what could lead to it. And what character will be. Still Michael is the one with more chances, but we only have two more episodes and still no clue from him.

I've read the speculation that Rowena might reach out to him for grace to keep open the rift now that Lucifer is gone. That would make sense to a point. Does she have access to Hell now that Crowley isn't there anymore? Wasn't the cage heavily guarded? How could she get there without Crowley's help or approval? Billie once granted access for Dean but I guess that it was arranged in some way by Crowley. Again who would do that now? and how would Rowena contact Billie?

Actually there are plenty of possible ways to do all that without going out of cannon. What we don't have is time.

Michael's grace to open the rift or to keep it open has always made sense. Michael back in the saddle to provide means to Heaven to stay operating makes sense too. Bringing him back in exchange for the grace and then putting him in Heaven to rule it and rescue it would be perfectly fine.  And seeing that Lucifer is still in the middle of everything it could even give them new territory for next season to get back to the original fight. Michael from Heaven and Lucifer as new Hell ruler (remember that position is currently vacant too). Then with Mary and Jack staying in the AU they would give more than enough material for new stories that could give free time for the J2.

But still don't see how they'll do it in two episodes.

Sorry, this rant is long enough. I'll give the floor to someone with better ideas.

[gonzosgirrl]

Ruminating more...  Dabb is still insisting the character is both unexpected and a long time coming.  So if we take that as truth (I don't, but for rumination's sake), it should eliminate Michael as a possibility as he is absolutely the expected choice. Jensen has said 'Dean steps up in a big way', so I take that to mean he does something, rather than having something done to him (involuntarily). He also said the last two days of filming were difficult. That says to me whatever it is he does/becomes is to help fight the AU invasion. For me, that eliminates a human. John, Henry, Elliott Ness (apparently a popular thought on Twitter, due to the suit).

Then I think about Jensen saying they don't know how they are going to deal with this transformation in S14. So that leads me to think that the need for whatever causes him to change is resolved in the finale, but whoever he is either doesn't want to give up that fine body (can't blame them!) or Dean made a deal to let them keep his body in exchange for whatever he/she/it does to defeat AU!Michael.

If I accept those things as true, I believe OG!Death is the only answer. It means that a 'long time' to them is two full seasons, but I do believe that it's not just me who thinks his repercussions for killing Death are overdue. I guess the only thing that's certain is we're going to know for sure in about 10 days.

[ILoveReading]

Dabb also said this

Quote

According to Supernatural co-showrunner Andrew Dabb, the character will be both surprising and … not so much?

So that does fit Michael.  I saw this theory on twitter.

It could make sense.  Dean somehow ends up back in our world so he gets Rowena to take him to the cage, say yes to Michael to get everyone out.  Once everyone is safe Michael takes off with that find new body.  (can't blame him).

[gonzosgirrl]

45 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dabb also said this

According to Supernatural co-showrunner Andrew Dabb, the character will be both surprising and … not so much

That is the most 'Dabb' quote ever, and sadly quintessential to what the show has become. It's surprising to us because we recall shit about canon, but now that we realize our genius twist is what 95% of the show's fans could've written with their eyes closed, maybe... not so much. Talk about covering your ass.

It's amazing to me that Dabb could take even (the possibility of) two things I've wanted forever (Dean's Michael destiny fulfilled, and Jensen getting a meaty story to stretch his acting muscles) and ruin it with his mediocrity.

Edited May 8, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

Maybe it's Henry's father (who Dean is the spitting image of).  And Dean is somehow trapped someplace else (or in a coma or whatever...) so he doesn't have to play both characters. 

Maybe Rowena brings out Michael and sends him into the past to get Dean's great grandfather for his vessel. 

They keep saying "new character" -- so what if it isn't really Dean's meatsuit but a doppleganger like great grandpa?

[Jonesy]

Dabb's exact quote is, "will be both unexpected and kind of a long time coming."  Sounds exactly like Michael to me.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Jakes

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, belbar said:

I've read the speculation that Rowena might reach out to him for grace to keep open the rift now that Lucifer is gone. That would make sense to a point. Does she have access to Hell now that Crowley isn't there anymore? Wasn't the cage heavily guarded? How could she get there without Crowley's help or approval? Billie once granted access for Dean but I guess that it was arranged in some way by Crowley. Again who would do that now? and how would Rowena contact Billie?

In S11 when Cas became Lucifer's vessel Lucifer asked Rowena if she was the only one who could open the cage.  He needed to make sure no one else could before he "killed" her.  She told him she was the only one.  This was a Dabb script.  Do you think he remembers that?  If he does then it is possible she opens the cage to get to Michael's grace.

 

They sure have to pack a whole bunch of story into 84 minutes.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[Jonesy]

39 minutes ago, SueB said:

Maybe it's Henry's father (who Dean is the spitting image of).  And Dean is somehow trapped someplace else (or in a coma or whatever...) so he doesn't have to play both characters. 

Maybe Rowena brings out Michael and sends him into the past to get Dean's great grandfather for his vessel. 

They keep saying "new character" -- so what if it isn't really Dean's meatsuit but a doppleganger like great grandpa?

Think its a new character(and not a new character to the show) for Jensen to play so expect Dean will be the vessel himself.  But I do like the twist you gave it and guess there is a long shot that might be.

19 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

In S11 when Cas became Lucifer's vessel Lucifer asked Rowena if she was the only one who could open the cage.  He needed to make sure no one else could before he "killed" her.  She told him she was the only one.  This was a Dabb script.  Do you think he remembers that?  If he does then it is possible she opens the cage to get to Michael's grace.

 

They sure have to pack a whole bunch of story into 84 minutes.

 

Yes I think Rowena will open the cage to get more Archangel Grace.

48 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That is the most 'Dabb' quote ever, and sadly quintessential to what the show has become. It's surprising to us because we recall shit about canon, but now that we realize our genius twist is what 95% of the show's fans could've written with their eyes closed, maybe... not so much. Talk about covering your ass.

It's amazing to me that Dabb could take even (the possibility of) two things I've wanted forever (Dean's Michael destiny fulfilled, and Jensen getting a meaty story to stretch his acting muscles) and ruin it with his mediocrity.

 

For those who wanted Dean/Michael should be happy with Dabb--otherwise you'd never have gotten it and we'll have to see how it plays out.  I expect Jensen will pull it off just fine.  I see nothing that shows it won't work.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Jakes

[BoxManLocke]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

If I accept those things as true, I believe OG!Death is the only answer. It means that a 'long time' to them is two full seasons, but I do believe that it's not just me who thinks his repercussions for killing Death are overdue. I guess the only thing that's certain is we're going to know for sure in about 10 days.

I'm still hoping for this, and that would be - dare I say it ? - a pretty great setup, starting with the season 10 finale, Billie's threats about consequences, Billie's death and her return. Basically you get hints every single season leading to the next finale, which is pretty cool and would go a long way to maybe restoring my faith in Dabb as a maybe not completely useless showrunner.

 

Michael on the other hand doesn't nearly make as much sense to me and would just be a response to the brothers's current predicament about the rift. The only thing that would make it "a long time coming" is that it's an old-ass potential storyline that's been nipped in the bud, which is thoroughly unexciting as far as I'm concerned

Edited May 8, 2018 by BoxManLocke

[gonzosgirrl]

29 minutes ago, Jakes said:

For those who wanted Dean/Michael should be happy with Dabb--otherwise you'd never have gotten it and we'll have to see how it plays out.  I expect Jensen will pull it off just fine.  I see nothing that shows it won't work.

It's not Jensen I doubt. He's spun enough of Dabb's straw into gold that we should be calling him Rumplestilskin by now.  

[Myrelle]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

A couple of days of intense physical challenge doesn’t seem like sucking in ArchAngel grace.  We are missing something here.  

 

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'd say maybe he's tortured into submission, but that doesn't sound like Dean 'stepping up'.

A couple of days would be how many scenes? Don't some of the fighting sequences and scenes take hours to shoot? And I can't shake the feeling that Billie is going to show up for Dean again this season. And we had that short video where he had to record something that he said was for a fight scene and then added-or was it? So many questions.

I think the "unexpected" part of what Dabb said is precisely because there has been no real mention of CageMichael within show at all this season. I still think that we're going to get AUMichael vs CageMichael battling it out in that church in the finale. Or I'm still hoping for it, to be more precise.

[belbar]

11 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

In S11 when Cas became Lucifer's vessel Lucifer asked Rowena if she was the only one who could open the cage.  He needed to make sure no one else could before he "killed" her.  She told him she was the only one.  This was a Dabb script.  Do you think he remembers that?  If he does then it is possible she opens the cage to get to Michael's grace.

I remember that Rowena is the only one that can open the cage. But you can't open anything if you can not get to it. Cage is supposed to be heavily guarded in a remote corner of hell? it doesn't sound as very accesible to her now. (oh well maybe Dabb will produce another surprisingly magic weapon that can get her to it. Remember when the boys used to fight with just some salt and a knife?)

[BoxManLocke]

I doubt we're going to get a whole thing with Rowena somehow finding the cage, fighting her way through it then opening it then Michael potentially escaping... that sounds way too long for me when we're in episode 22.

 

I think the only being that could help Rowena right now is Billie. They already know each other and Rowena knows how to get in touch with her.

 

And this is a BuckLeming episode, so get ready to hear that reaper grace can work as an ingredient in the spell too or some other nonsense. The writers ran out of time all on their own this season, so they're going to have to bullshit a lot if they want to reach the cliffhanger (which is the only thing they really seem to care about).

[belbar]

5 minutes ago, BoxManLocke said:

And this is a BuckLeming episode, so get ready to hear that reaper grace can work as an ingredient in the spell too or some other nonsense. The writers ran out of time all on their own this season, so they're going to have to bullshit a lot if they want to reach the cliffhanger (which is the only thing they really seem to care about).

Ouch I'd forgotten is a BuckLeming episode. Enough said then I guess. You're right they'll BS their way through it.

[catrox14]

6 hours ago, belbar said:

I remember that Rowena is the only one that can open the cage. But you can't open anything if you can not get to it. Cage is supposed to be heavily guarded in a remote corner of hell? it doesn't sound as very accesible to her now. (oh well maybe Dabb will produce another surprisingly magic weapon that can get her to it. Remember when the boys used to fight with just some salt and a knife?)

She should be able to just manifest a faux cage like she did with Lucifer. Bring Michael to that faux cage.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

And this is a BuckLeming episode, so get ready to hear that reaper grace can work as an ingredient in the spell too or some other nonsense. The writers ran out of time all on their own this season, so they're going to have to bullshit a lot if they want to reach the cliffhanger (which is the only thing they really seem to care about).

Yes, lore will be bend and twisted in ways it never has before (and that is a high bar). Unless, everything just really happens in the Finale and even episode 22 is just more treading ground. Then it is up to Dabb and he doesn`t bend lore so much as just... have stuff happening, no explanations needed. 

I`m guessing from the promo and various other spoilers episode 22 will have a good amount of "your funny neighbourhood jokester Lucifer" which will veer off into at least one or two big Lucifer/Jack scenes more on the serious side. 

The others will pow-wow and make a big plan for some showdown with Michael and his forces. Now this might be a mini-cliffhanger that the episode ends on. There were a lot of actors shooting together. Bobby will be back. Maybe Charlie and Ketch. 

It`s safe to say that the countdown on the rift will run out and it will close on Rowena`s end. Now her part in the episode is the biggest mystery. No spoiler, no pictures, nothing in the promo. Lets say that the entire stuff needs to have at least half the episode, probably more, I`d give her maybe two or three shorter scenes. 

It`s iffy on how much set-up can be accomplished there.    

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

She should be able to just manifest a faux cage like she did with Lucifer. Bring Michael to that faux cage.

So would we just go with the 'fact' that the faux cage doesn't have to be in Hell? She could just build one in the Walmart parking lot? Although come to think of it, that kinda sort is hell....

;)

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So would we just go with the 'fact' that the faux cage doesn't have to be in Hell? She could just build one in the Walmart parking lot? Although come to think of it, that kinda sort is hell....

;)

I see no reason why that faux cage had to be in Hell other than for the drama of it. Of course, I'm not convinced that Michael is still in the Cage ...

ETA:  See my comments in bitter spoilers if inclined

[catrox14]

But to the point of it needing to be in Hell, there is no one stopping her from going into Hell really.

It's not closed off because Asmodeus had access.  So there must be some demon willing to let her in for a price

[bearcatfan]

I’m not sure why Jensen saying it was physical would mean that it’s related to the process of becoming the character rather than what the character has to do. So say the answer is Michael. The physical part isn’t Dean sucking in some archangel grace but the fighting he has to do as Michael, possibly fighting AU Michael. 

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I’m not sure why Jensen saying it was physical would mean that it’s related to the process of becoming the character rather than what the character has to do. So say the answer is Michael. The physical part isn’t Dean sucking in some archangel grace but the fighting he has to do as Michael, possibly fighting AU Michael. 

Good point!

I do wonder about his comment with the ADR tweet/instagram with the grunting and saying it was for a fight.... or was it?!

ETA: So this was tweeted on April 12. Was that before they started filming 12x23? How long after a scene is filmed would they do ADR? Because now that I listen to it again, I'm wondering if this was the scene where Ketch is curing him of the poisoned bullet wound?

The Instagram.

Edited May 8, 2018 by gonzosgirrl