Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Pattern mania decoder ring:
- Breaks are the dark green
- colors are for current writers
- mytharc/seasonarc is lt green, MOTW (mostly) lt blue
- spoilers from ibelieveinthelittletreetopper sheet

So this is your view of patterns as you see them. Fair enough. Thanks for the explanation :)

[companionenvy]

Question: perhaps I'm forgetting something extremely obvious, but are we sure that Dean would be the true vessel for alt!Michael? I assume he would at least be a potential vessel for him, but I don't think we've had confirmation that vessels are stable across AUs. And since Dean doesn't exist in alt-world, Michael must have a different true vessel -- although that doesn't really make sense, given that the point of divergence seems recent enough that I would imagine the Winchester line were still Michael's vessels. In any case, alt Michael might or might not know that Dean is a potential vessel for him, even if he is.

That being said, I don't actually think the show is going to go there, because there hasn't been any attempt to link Dean and Michael -- or any direct reference, IIRC, to the Winchester/Campbell lines' status as angel vessels -- for ages. But I like Sue B's theory that "A Most Holy Man" involves Michael's attempt to find a vessel, so it might be possible. 

Of course, my dream isn't for Dean to be Michael's vessel, but for Dean to act briefly as vessel for a seriously injured Cas. Sadly, no spoilers suggest that is in the offing, more's the pity :)

[Casseiopeia]

20 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

And since Dean doesn't exist in alt-world, Michael must have a different true vessel

I imagine the one he is in might be his true vessel since it isn't imploding or dissolving or whatever vessels do eventually. 

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I imagine the one he is in might be his true vessel since it isn't imploding or dissolving or whatever vessels do eventually. 

Unless vessels have a longer life span in the AU than SPN world

[SueB]

I think there's a LOT of room to play with between the different AU's.

Starting with power:
- Lucifer may have been hot shit compared to demons after Crowley stuffed him permanently into the Nick suit, but besides push aside Cas, he didn't actually have any archangel on angel interaction in our universe.  And don't forget Cas' grace started off as a shard from what Metatron had left over. It seems like God gave him at least SOME repair but no wings ... so Cas' power is still fuzzy.
- Lucifer was able to easily dispatch 5 stunt angels in the AU, so he clearly had SOME juice.  But Michael wiped the floor with him.
- When Michael busted him on his power level, Lucifer said "Hey you try interdimensional travel sometime pal, definitely no frills".  Of course he could be lying.  He IS Satan.  But that hints at power loss (at a minimum) and potentially power difference if in an AU rather than your original.
- Lucifer lost a substantial amount to Michael's spell.
- Angel's power INCREASES with time.  Multiple times we've heard about Cas "healing" or "recovering".  Luci looked like he was trying to get the juice in the cell, and he had enough to overcome the warding (more than Cas).
- I don't think a routine angel blade took out Lucifer.
Bottom Line: It's tough to gage Michael's power based on Lucifer because he has been so altered from his original stance but it's definitely a possible factor in whether or not he can find (or may HAVE to find) a vessel in our AU.  That may be why he tries to change meatsuits in the first place.

I'm surprised they didn't make the title "Looking for Mr. Goodbar". 

[bozodegama]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

I think there's a LOT of room to play with between the different AU's.

Starting with power:
- Lucifer may have been hot shit compared to demons after Crowley stuffed him permanently into the Nick suit, but besides push aside Cas, he didn't actually have any archangel on angel interaction in our universe.  And don't forget Cas' grace started off as a shard from what Metatron had left over. It seems like God gave him at least SOME repair but no wings ... so Cas' power is still fuzzy.
- Lucifer was able to easily dispatch 5 stunt angels in the AU, so he clearly had SOME juice.  But Michael wiped the floor with him.
- When Michael busted him on his power level, Lucifer said "Hey you try interdimensional travel sometime pal, definitely no frills".  Of course he could be lying.  He IS Satan.  But that hints at power loss (at a minimum) and potentially power difference if in an AU rather than your original.
- Lucifer lost a substantial amount to Michael's spell.
- Angel's power INCREASES with time.  Multiple times we've heard about Cas "healing" or "recovering".  Luci looked like he was trying to get the juice in the cell, and he had enough to overcome the warding (more than Cas).
- I don't think a routine angel blade took out Lucifer.
Bottom Line: It's tough to gage Michael's power based on Lucifer because he has been so altered from his original stance but it's definitely a possible factor in whether or not he can find (or may HAVE to find) a vessel in our AU.  That may be why he tries to change meatsuits in the first place.

I'm surprised they didn't make the title "Looking for Mr. Goodbar". 

Very cool, Sue B.  Thanks for your input and putting together those charts.  I could really use some Mytharc or Meta episodes.  So will Lucifer be back to his old strength ever or does the removal of grace mean that he will be somewhat powered down if the angels power increases over time.?  

[Casseiopeia]

So I was watching Devil in the Details this morning and at the end Casifer asks Rowena if anyone can open the cage.  She said just me.  So now that Rowena is unbound does that mean she might be able to open the cage to let real world Michael out?  He would be the only thing that could kill Lucifer presumably.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Casseiopeia

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

So I was watching Devil in the Details this morning and at the end Casifer asks Rowena if anyone can open the cage.  She said just me.  So now that Rowena is unbound does that mean she might be able to open the cage to let real world Michael out?  He would be the only thing that could kill Lucifer presumably.

I had a similar thought. I've even wondered if maybe she let him out of the cage along time ago. Maybe she has Michael's grace and that's why her eyes glowed blue like angels do.

[Myrelle]

He would probably also be the only thing that could kill AU Michael, who is supposedly worse than Lucifer.

I think it's just going to be a matter of who they're going to give the Michael storyline to and who will get to play OurWorldMichael. One would think that "true vessels" would have to come into play and be considered again, but this is the Dabb era, so who knows.

[Casseiopeia]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I had a similar thought. I've even wondered if maybe she let him out of the cage along time ago. Maybe she has Michael's grace and that's why her eyes glowed blue like angels do.

Oh that is a cool thought.  I was wondering about the glowing blue angel eyes.

[Jonesy]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I had a similar thought. I've even wondered if maybe she let him out of the cage along time ago. Maybe she has Michael's grace and that's why her eyes glowed blue like angels do.

Ruth was interviewed about the end scene and blue eyes and she said that writers gave her a power that is unique and thinks hasn't been on the show before--it seems its something different than something related to angel power.

[gonzosgirrl]

34 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Ruth was interviewed about the end scene and blue eyes and she said that writers gave her a power that is unique and thinks hasn't been on the show before--it seems its something different than something related to angel power.

Hmm. If she wasn't lying, we know two things: she said she wanted the grimoire because the Grand Coven bound some of her powers, and the way she revealed this we're lead to believe that if she'd had them, she could've protected herself from Lucifer, and she said she needed the book for a spell so that she wouldn't be defenseless again. So if those things are one and the same, should we assume this is a power that was restored to her, not bestowed on her? And what haven't we seen before? Is she kind of like Bilbo's sword (Sting) that glows blue when orcs are near?

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

Ruth was interviewed about the end scene and blue eyes and she said that writers gave her a power that is unique and thinks hasn't been on the show before--it seems its something different than something related to angel power.

 

58 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Hmm. If she wasn't lying, we know two things: she said she wanted the grimoire because the Grand Coven bound some of her powers, and the way she revealed this we're lead to believe that if she'd had them, she could've protected herself from Lucifer, and she said she needed the book for a spell so that she wouldn't be defenseless again. So if those things are one and the same, should we assume this is a power that was restored to her, not bestowed on her? And what haven't we seen before? Is she kind of like Bilbo's sword (Sting) that glows blue when orcs are near?

The problem to me is that they can't make her *too* powerful, otherwise she'll interfere with storylines--the way they had to make Cas and Lucifer lose power, and had to get Chuck and Amara off the table (and even the Leviathans).  Having an invulnerable (and/or most powerful) character doesn't leave much for the others to do--they can't fight if it's evil, and can't die if it's friendly (without, of course, much torturing of SLs to make one of them *slightly* more powerful, or (ugh!) take on some supernatural powerup.  And we're well past "been there, done that."  So if Rowena really does become uber powerful, I can see the end of her role coming soon.  

[SueB]

3 hours ago, bozodegama said:

Very cool, Sue B.  Thanks for your input and putting together those charts.  I could really use some Mytharc or Meta episodes.  So will Lucifer be back to his old strength ever or does the removal of grace mean that he will be somewhat powered down if the angels power increases over time.?  

I think that's debateable.  Without a Chuck intervention, I think Lucifer permanently housed in a Nick meatsuit could have limitations.  The Nicksuit was supposed to keep him powerless.  They had some bullshit "reversal" thing going but that doesn't mean it's all back to normal (IMO).  Like, not remotely.  THEN you have to factor in that archangels are inherently different -- made of the primordial ooze or something.  So, "natural" Lucifer may never recover until he can physically leave that meatsuit.  OTOH, the writers could ignore that factoid (they had that ..... ahem... not so glorious moment of Lucifer looking out at the Earth like the "morning star" he is named after).  So, we could have LoLcanon go in ANY direction.  

So, I'd say he's always going to be either less than Luci (even after 'healing'), original recipe, due to loss of grace and Nicksuit OR he's going to have some LoLCanon reason why he's back.  

1 hour ago, Jakes said:

Ruth was interviewed about the end scene and blue eyes and she said that writers gave her a power that is unique and thinks hasn't been on the show before--it seems its something different than something related to angel power.

I think as a "natural", she's tapped into the God power that made Creation.  It's not grace, it's not soul power, it's natural power.  Doesn't make her God-class (not remotely) but she's somehow in tune with the natural universe in a way that only a 'natural witch' can be.  As Chuck/God made the universe, all power ultimatley comes from him.  How he made "nature" powered IDK.  I think they are making it up as they go along.  But I think it's a cool concept.

7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

 

The problem to me is that they can't make her *too* powerful, otherwise she'll interfere with storylines--the way they had to make Cas and Lucifer lose power, and had to get Chuck and Amara off the table (and even the Leviathans).  Having an invulnerable (and/or most powerful) character doesn't leave much for the others to do--they can't fight if it's evil, and can't die if it's friendly (without, of course, much torturing of SLs to make one of them *slightly* more powerful, or (ugh!) take on some supernatural powerup.  And we're well past "been there, done that."  So if Rowena really does become uber powerful, I can see the end of her role coming soon.  

I agree.  That's why I think her cutting herself to use some of her own inerent magic is ultimately going to be a price that she paid.  It'll either kill her or limit her in some way to keep her useful but not all-powerful. 

[catrox14]

I was thinking about this revisit of Sam's connection to Lucifer and I'm confused by some things. 

 Wasn't this all addressed during the Lucifer hallucinations in s7?  He might not have told Dean precisely what happened but the audience was given a good indication of what happened to him. Didn't he tell Dean some things back then and Dean was like "I don't need details", which I took to be more of a matter not that Dean didn't care but that he didn't want Sam to have more trauma than his stuff at the end of s6?

I was under the impression that Sam was no longer tormented by the memories once Cas took them from him in s7 to make up for breaking his wall in s6.  He didn't put the memories back or did he and I have forgotten? 

Sam faced Lucifer in the Cage again, but told him no, thus no new possession.  I'm not being snarky or bitter. I'm just trying to figure out where they are going with this for both brothers.

I also think there is a rift brewing now between Dean and Sam over Sam giving Rowena the pages from the book.  Dean was sideying Sam quite a bit. 

I wonder about Sister Jo and Sam. If Sam has these memories still could he go to Sister Jo for healing?

[SueB]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking about this revisit of Sam's connection to Lucifer and I'm confused by some things. 

 Wasn't this all addressed during the Lucifer hallucinations in s7?  He might not have told Dean precisely what happened but the audience was given a good indication of what happened to him. Didn't he tell Dean some things back then and Dean was like "I don't need details", which I took to be more of a matter not that Dean didn't care but that he didn't want Sam to have more trauma than his stuff at the end of s6?

I was under the impression that Sam was no longer tormented by the memories once Cas took them from him in s7 to make up for breaking his wall in s6.  He didn't put the memories back or did he and I have forgotten? 

Sam faced Lucifer in the Cage again, but told him no, thus no new possession.  I'm not being snarky or bitter. I'm just trying to figure out where they are going with this for both brothers.

I also think there is a rift brewing now between Dean and Sam over Sam giving Rowena the pages from the book.  Dean was sideying Sam quite a bit. 

I wonder about Sister Jo and Sam. If Sam has these memories still could he go to Sister Jo for healing?

I think Sam's memories are more like routine trauma than the Hellucinations.  "Routine trama" being kind of a odd way to put it but there are plenty of people who have sights that they cannot unsee and are haunted by it.  A parent losing a child. A person who's had a traumatic injury.  I think more not-Supernatural healing is warranted but I think taking away his memories either wont help or is kind of the wrong thing to do.  I wish I could unsee some things in my life (or unhear), but it's part of who we are.  Granted, Lucifer's true face is apparently pretty damn awful, so maybe regular treatment just won't cut it.  But I don't think Sam has done much but shove it away.  I think the point of that conversation was to find common ground with Rowena.  Which I think was legit, not some ploy.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, SueB said:

But I don't think Sam has done much but shove it away.  I think the point of that conversation was to find common ground with Rowena.  Which I think was legit, not some ploy.

Trauma is still brain oriented. Real life doesn't quite fit into this scenario and despite my own PTSD and familiarity with processing trauma and having flashbacks etc, Sam, in story, had his memories and associated trauma removed by Cas.

That's what doesn't make sense to me. We were told it was gone. It was never brought up even when Sam went back to the cage in s11.

It still doesn't make sense that Lucifer could have shown his true face through his locked down Nicksuit.  But allowing for that to be true, Sam has been around Rick Springfield! Lucifer, Casifer, and President Jefficer, and so was Dean. You'd think Lucifer would have wanted to traumatize Dean to that point to make him a less formidable foe.  Or do it during s5 when the battle royale was on. 

When exactly did Sam see Lucifer's true face? Was it only after possession?

For me, the only explanation that really works,  is that when Sam went back to the Cage in s11, alone, that Lucifer showed him his true face again, which makes him saying no a much more powerful thing that time. And it's a 2 years of him suppressing that memory vs 7 years and making Cas' efforts pointless. That's my working headcanon.

And if they did it just to give Rowena and Sam common ground that wasn't thought through for how it plays for Cas and Dean, as well.  Weird SL is weird.     

[DittyDotDot]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sam, in story, had his memories and associated trauma removed by Cas.

I don't think Sam's memories were removed. Cass said he was able to shift the pain--which I think of as Cass healing Sam's soul to a certain degree--but I believe Sam remembers Hell, but those memories just don't come out and play with him anymore. I think Sam's got the same level of Hell trauma as Dean does at this point. Both of them remember it, neither have ever really dealt with it, though. 

However, I don't think Sam is all that traumatized by Satan these days. I think it's just another memory of a time he felt helpless and that's what's brought it up now, which was a bonding point for he and Rowena. I wouldn't be surprised if his attitude doesn't take a 180 after this next episode. It seems Cass fills them in on stuff, so I suspect they'll have a direction to move in again and Sam can focus his energy on that instead of sitting around over-thinking everything.

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

When exactly did Sam see Lucifer's true face? Was it only after possession?

I assumed he was talking about when he was possessed by Lucifer. And, I think it was more metaphorical than literal.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Sam's got the same level of Hell trauma as Dean does at this point. Both of them remember it, neither have ever really dealt with it, though. 

Well I wasn't comparing it to Dean's Hell time, not in this case LOL

I'm gonna have to rewatch some of s7 then because I was of the understanding that Cas took away the pain by taking away the memories which is why the Lucifer visions stopped.

Edited February 6, 2018 by catrox14

[Diane]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well I wasn't comparing it to Dean's Hell time, not in this case LOL

I'm gonna have to rewatch some of s7 then because I was of the understanding that Cas took away the pain by taking away the memories which is why the Lucifer visions stopped.

This is from the transcript:

CASTIEL
I'm sorry. This isn't a problem I can make disappear. And you know that. [pause] But I may be able to shift it.

DEAN
Shift?

CASTIEL
Yeah, it would get Sam back on his feet.

CASTIEL sits on the bed close to SAM.

CASTIEL
It's better this way. I'll be fine.

SAM flinches.

DEAN
Wait, Cas, what are you doing?

CASTIEL
Now, Sam...

HALLUCIFER
This may hurt. And if I can't tell you again...

CASTIEL
...I'm sorry I ever did this to you.

CASTIEL puts a hand on SAM’s head. SAM groans in pain and his face and eyes glow red. The red travels up CASTIEL’s arm and face and his eyes turn red. SAM groans and gasps for breath.

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Diane said:

This is from the transcript:

CASTIEL
I'm sorry. This isn't a problem I can make disappear. And you know that. [pause] But I may be able to shift it.

DEAN
Shift?

CASTIEL
Yeah, it would get Sam back on his feet.

CASTIEL sits on the bed close to SAM.

CASTIEL
It's better this way. I'll be fine.

SAM flinches.

DEAN
Wait, Cas, what are you doing?

CASTIEL
Now, Sam...

HALLUCIFER
This may hurt. And if I can't tell you again...

CASTIEL
...I'm sorry I ever did this to you.

CASTIEL puts a hand on SAM’s head. SAM groans in pain and his face and eyes glow red. The red travels up CASTIEL’s arm and face and his eyes turn red. SAM groans and gasps for breath.

Which only shows that Cas shifted the burden. It's not specific there but in Reading is Fundamental there is this.

Quote

CASTIEL
You seem troubled. Of course, that's a primary aspect of your personality, so I sometimes ignore it.

SAM
Okay. Um... right now I'm just wondering about you.

CASTIEL
What about me? You're worried about the burden I lifted from you.

SAM
I think I was done for. Do you see Lucifer?

CASTIEL
I did at first. But that was... It was a projection of yours, I think, sort of an aftertaste. Now I more see... well, everything.

MEG watches from across the room.

CASTIEL
It's funny. I was – I was done for, too.

MEG leaves.

CASTIEL
The weight of all my mistakes, all those lives and souls lost, I... I couldn't take it, either. I was… I was lost until I took on your pain. It's strange to think that that helped, but –

SAM
I know you never did anything but try to help. I realize that, Cas, and I'm grateful. We're all grateful. And we're gonna help you get better, okay? No matter what it takes.

CASTIELL
What do you mean, "better"?

AFAIK, neither Sam nor Castiel saw Lucifer again which implies to me that "burden" equals trauma including the Lucifer hallucinations, the memories, the emotional suffering attached to the trauma.

IMO, if Sam was as traumatized by seeing Lucifer's true face then in s11, meaning he feels the fear and the connection to Lucifer at all times, then why in s11, did he not ping that it was Lucifer sending messages instead of God?

That's the big disconnect for me with this reveal.  I think the show has overreached here.  Now, what I could buy as an explanation that Sam could just live with it beyond being re-traumatized in s11, is if him being Lucifer's Chosen Vessel lets him absorb that more than an uber powerful witch. 

They should have left the whole thing alone because they can't just not delve further into IMO.  If they use it as a plot device it's doing a disservice to both Rowena and Sam's apparent trauma. 

If they delve into it further then they have to explain how Sam coped for so long when the most powerful witch in the world was so terrified that she wanted a spell to protect her from the pain. 

If it turns out that Rowena just pinged on psychological manipulation to get to Sam give her what she wanted, that's kind of crappy to Sam because then his apparent ongoing Lucifer's True Face trauma is minimized to him getting played.

If Sam gets played and something worse happens now that Dean has pointed out that Rowena is not their friend that is setting up Sam for an unnecessary fall and division between them. 

I don't know. I just have a bad feeling that this reveal is not for nothing and will be a much bigger thing that unless they frame it around him being re-traumatized in s11, I can't make the logistics work out.

[Casseiopeia]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't know. I just have a bad feeling that this reveal is not for nothing and will be a much bigger thing that unless they frame it around him being re-traumatized in s11, I can't make the logistics work out.

I'm hoping that what is going to come from this is that Sam is at the very least going to kill the Lucifer story line once and for all.  

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I'm hoping that what is going to come from this is that Sam is at the very least going to kill the Lucifer story line once and for all.  

Sadly, I think Lucifer will be around until the end of the show which I don't think means this season. I think Sam is still tied to Lucifer through  his attachment to Jack.

I think Cas might die to move Jack's story forward. They could have Lucifer kill Cas or he dies trying to save Jack from Lucifer.  Then Jack goes into vengeance mode but his power could destroy the world so Sam and Dean are faced  with maybe having to kill Jack before he destroys the world. Although Dean did say he would he the one to kill him so I could see it coming down to Sam not being able to do it so Dean does and not because Jack goes Darkseid by nature but because he wants vengeance.

[Lemuria]

catrox14, I had the exact same question and issue.  That whole Lucifer face thing made no sense to me.  Cas presumably removed all of Sam's memories.  But then again, this is now the LOLCanon show.  

[companionenvy]

For once, I don't actually see this as LOl!Canon, since I think the show left a lot of wiggle room. Even when Death, who is obviously way more powerful than Cas, set up a wall for Sam's memories, it was with the warning that the wall wasn't 100% and that memories could still reemerge if Sam "scratched" at it. What Cas did is different, in that he transferred the memories to himself rather than suppressing them, but I think some of the same logic would apply: Cas did something difficult and dangerous, and while it considerably alleviated Sam's situation, it doesn't necessarily mean that his hell memories were completely gone never to resurface in any form. 

I never got the impression that Cas removed Sam's hell trauma so thoroughly that he had literally no recollection of anything between jumping into the pit and being re-ensouled. Death's wall seems to have done that, for the time being, but I saw no indication that Sam had lost his  basic awareness of the things Lucifer had done to him after Cas took on his trauma. They simply were no longer visceral in the way that they had been. But it makes sense to me that Sam, despite trying to compartmentalize, still has some buried trauma stemming from his time in the Cage, and that interacting with Lucifer over the years has at times reactivated that.

I'm not sure that I see this becoming a major plot point, in any case. It worked for the scene with Rowena, and explained why Sam would let her have the spell, but I think that's it, in the same way that we've had one-off episodes where Sam bonds with the person in peril over having felt like a freak without reviving that as an extended storyline. 

[Diane]

5 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

For once, I don't actually see this as LOl!Canon, since I think the show left a lot of wiggle room. Even when Death, who is obviously way more powerful than Cas, set up a wall for Sam's memories, it was with the warning that the wall wasn't 100% and that memories could still reemerge if Sam "scratched" at it. What Cas did is different, in that he transferred the memories to himself rather than suppressing them, but I think some of the same logic would apply: Cas did something difficult and dangerous, and while it considerably alleviated Sam's situation, it doesn't necessarily mean that his hell memories were completely gone never to resurface in any form. 

I never got the impression that Cas removed Sam's hell trauma so thoroughly that he had literally no recollection of anything between jumping into the pit and being re-ensouled. Death's wall seems to have done that, for the time being, but I saw no indication that Sam had lost his  basic awareness of the things Lucifer had done to him after Cas took on his trauma. They simply were no longer visceral in the way that they had been. But it makes sense to me that Sam, despite trying to compartmentalize, still has some buried trauma stemming from his time in the Cage, and that interacting with Lucifer over the years has at times reactivated that.

I'm not sure that I see this becoming a major plot point, in any case. It worked for the scene with Rowena, and explained why Sam would let her have the spell, but I think that's it, in the same way that we've had one-off episodes where Sam bonds with the person in peril over having felt like a freak without reviving that as an extended storyline. 

This is how I see it too.  It was never said the Cas removed every little memory and trauma, just that now Sam could live with it.   I think that when he when Lucifer was able to get Sam in the cage in 11.09 O Brother Where Art Thou? and then also in 11.10 The Devil in the Details   That is my opinion, but I am not going belabor the point.

Edited February 6, 2018 by Diane

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

'm not sure that I see this becoming a major plot point, in any case. It worked for the scene with Rowena, and explained why Sam would let her have the spell, but I think that's it, in the same way that we've had one-off episodes where Sam bonds with the person in peril over having felt like a freak without reviving that as an extended storyline. 

IMO, the bold is an ongoing Sam character SL up to and including Jack and now Rowena. I can see this falling into that but I'm thinking it must only be reserved for the special few who Lucifer showed his True Face.

I think that's the thing that bugs me on this.  Has it ever been a thing were Lucifer showing his True Face mattered? I really don't think this is minor thing. And I do think it is LOLcanon/retcon because it's introducing a thing that didn't exist before as being meaningful to Sam' SL that reframes how I see Sam's hell time. There is room to shove it in the narrrative but it feels like it's too big to leave as is.  Because to me, if Lucifer's True Face could cause enough trauma, you'd think he would have just risen and gone on TV saying "HERE'S LUCI" and messed with the masses. 

What I wonder, which would be an interesting twist is if Lucifer's True Face is really reflecting someone's own deepest fears and anxieties.

[Myrelle]

24 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I'm not sure that I see this becoming a major plot point, in any case. It worked for the scene with Rowena, and explained why Sam would let her have the spell, but I think that's it, in the same way that we've had one-off episodes where Sam bonds with the person in peril over having felt like a freak without reviving that as an extended storyline. 

I really hope that this is the case because they really did pull that one out of their asses, if nothing else; and all likely to just make Lucifer seem threatening and malevolent again.

I'm actually more interested in whether they're going to make Danneel a baddie or not, after that "slip" that JP made recently about wanting to stab her character. Now it seems a bit more likely to me that she might be a baddie in disguise.

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, the bold is an ongoing Sam character SL up to and including Jack and now Rowena. I can see this falling into that but I'm thinking it must only be reserved for the special few who Lucifer showed his True Face.

I think that's the thing that bugs me on this.  Has it ever been a thing were Lucifer showing his True Face mattered? I really don't think this is minor thing. And I do think it is LOLcanon/retcon because it's introducing a thing that didn't exist before as being meaningful to Sam' SL that reframes how I see Sam's hell time. There is room to shove it in the narrrative but it feels like it's too big to leave as is.  Because to me, if Lucifer's True Face could cause enough trauma, you'd think he would have just risen and gone on TV saying "HERE'S LUCI" and messed with the masses. 

What I wonder, which would be an interesting twist is if Lucifer's True Face is really reflecting someone's own deepest fears and anxieties.

Or maybe they just watched an episode of Lucifer (on Fox) and thought, hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I really hope that this is the case because they really did pull that one out of their asses, if nothing else; and all likely to just make Lucifer seem threatening and malevolent again.

I'm actually more interested in whether they're going to make Danneel a baddie or not, after that "slip" that JP made recently about wanting to stab her character. Now it seems a bit more likely to me that she might be a baddie in disguise.

I don't think JP's slip was a slip at all. J2 have been joking all along about how Uncle Jensen stabbed mommy (Gen/Ruby) and now Uncle Jared can maybe stab Danneel/Jo right back. I never thought it was any 'ooops' on JP or Danneel's part. JMO YMMV. Yadda yadda yadda LOL.

Edited February 6, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I don't think JP's slip was a slip at all. J2 have been joking all along about how Uncle Jensen stabbed mommy (Gen/Ruby) and now Uncle Jared can maybe stab Danneel/Jo right back. I never thought it was any 'ooops' on JP or Danneel's part. JMO YMMV. Yadda yadda yadda LOL.

Yeah, this is another thing I'm afraid of... :-/

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, this is another thing I'm afraid of... :-/

In one of the interviews for the Beer Company they asked Danneel about that.  She kind of implied that Sister Jo gets the upper hand.

9 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or maybe they just watched an episode of Lucifer (on Fox) and thought, hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

These writers love the copy and paste function this wouldn't surprise me at all.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Yeah, this is another thing I'm afraid of... :-/

To clarify, I thought it was a joke, both on Jared's and Danneel's part. I don't think it was any kind of slip on actual events.

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

These writers love the copy and paste function this wouldn't surprise me at all.

Lucifer's 'true face' is a huge plot point in that show, and it's never even been hinted at before in Supernatural. I don't think it's a coincidence.

[catrox14]

40 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Or maybe they just watched an episode of Lucifer (on Fox) and thought, hey!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ohhh is that a thing on that show?  Spoilers for Lucifer on Fox 

Spoiler

I know Tim Omundson was  God and Tom Welling is Cain and I'm so annoyed.  I just can't get past the female lead. She is so dull! Maybe the just traded scripts across the parking lot before Lucifer moved production back to L.A. LOL

Edited February 6, 2018 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, if Sam was as traumatized by seeing Lucifer's true face then in s11, meaning he feels the fear and the connection to Lucifer at all times, then why in s11, did he not ping that it was Lucifer sending messages instead of God?

I think he was talking about seeing Lucifer's true face was when he was possessed by Lucifer in S5 and probably some of his Hell memories--but like I said, I think it was more metaphorical; as in he showed his true nature not physically showing a disturbing face.

1 hour ago, Diane said:

This is how I see it too.  It was never said the Cas removed every little memory and trauma, just that now Sam could live with it.  

 

Yeah, I agree, Cass said he could help, not that he could cure him entirely. I was under the impression he just minimized the damage to get Sam upwardly mobile again. I never got the impression Sam didn't remember Hell at all after S7, just that his memories were under control.

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Well I wasn't comparing it to Dean's Hell time, not in this case LOL

I wasn't suggesting you were. I made the comparison as a way of explaining how traumatized I think Sam is at this point about his time in Hell; which is about the same as Dean. They both have memories they suppress, but it's not incapacitating them. They have learned to live with their memories, instead of letting their memories control them.

Edited February 6, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think he was talking about seeing Lucifer's true face was when he was possessed by Lucifer in S5 and probably some of his Hell memories--but like I said, I think it was more metaphorical; as in he showed his true nature not physically showing a disturbing face.

Whether it's an actual grotesque face, the person looking out his "true face" and seeing their own internal monstrous side, or they see Lucifer's own inner The Darkness, or however it manifests, is irrelevant. That was never my point. My point is that it was NOT a factor that existed until now but is apparently a pretty big deal such that Rowena claims it frightened her to the point that she never wants to think of it again, followed by Sam saying 'Yeah, I know what you mean'.  My point, is that it's a retcon because it significantly reframes Sam's Hell experience. And I can't see them introducing it just to blow it off as a plot device for Rowena. 

[companionenvy]

I don't see the notion of Lucifer having some horrific "true face" as significantly reframing Sam's Hell experience, but if they mean it as a literal thing it is kind of puzzling. Lucifer is evil, but he's just another angel, albeit more powerful than the rest. Is there anything in the show's angel-lore that would explain why seeing his true face would be so traumatic? More traumatic than, say, seeing Gabriel's would have been?

Edited February 6, 2018 by companionenvy

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I don't see the notion of Lucifer having some horrific "true face" as significantly reframing Sam's Hell experience, but if they mean it as a literal thing it is kind of puzzling. Lucifer is evil, but he's just another angel, albeit more powerful than the rest. Is there anything in the show's angel-lore that would explain why seeing his true face would be so traumatic? More traumatic than, say, seeing Gabriel's would have been?

Not that I know of. That's why I'm hoping it's a weird flip around and that the trauma is because someone sees their worst selves reflected in Lucifer's face and they can't handle that. It might also explain to an extent why Sam never shared that with Dean. I dunno, at least that would make it kind of interesting to me. 

Another thing I'm getting here is a Jasmine thing from Angel the Series.  Jasmine's true face was a monster and disgusting. You know this brings up another question. If Lucifer is supposed to be the Lightbringer, why could the Darkness affect him? I've always wondered about that lOL

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Whether it's an actual grotesque face, the person looking out his "true face" and seeing their own internal monstrous side, or they see Lucifer's own inner The Darkness, or however it manifests, is irrelevant. That was never my point. My point is that it was NOT a factor that existed until now but is apparently a pretty big deal such that Rowena claims it frightened her to the point that she never wants to think of it again, followed by Sam saying 'Yeah, I know what you mean'.  My point, is that it's a retcon because it significantly reframes Sam's Hell experience. And I can't see them introducing it just to blow it off as a plot device for Rowena. 

Moved to the Various and Sundry Villains thread since there are no spoilers and only speculation about what was in the episode itself.

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Not that I know of. That's why I'm hoping it's a weird flip around and that the trauma is because someone sees their worst selves reflected in Lucifer's face and they can't handle that. It might also explain to an extent why Sam never shared that with Dean. I dunno, at least that would make it kind of interesting to me. 

Another thing I'm getting here is a Jasmine thing from Angel the Series.  Jasmine's true face was a monster and disgusting. You know this brings up another question. If Lucifer is supposed to be the Lightbringer, why could the Darkness affect him? I've always wondered about that lOL

I just don't see how it can be a coincidence that another show about Lucifer and his 'true face' is popular right now, and suddenly it becomes a thing on SPN. I don't give this current crew enough credit for that dialogue being any kind of metaphor, I absolutely believe they meant it literally. Watch how Rowena especially delivers the lines. It was something she actually saw, IMO.

FWIW this is their version of Lucifer's 'devil face' as he calls it, his true face. It's at around 1:28 in this clip. Just posting the link because spoilers.

https://youtu.be/H5l7JVzzUkU

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I just don't see how it can be a coincidence that another show about Lucifer and his 'true face' is popular right now, and suddenly it becomes a thing on SPN. I don't give this current crew enough credit for that dialogue being any kind of metaphor, I absolutely believe they meant it literally. Watch how Rowena especially delivers the lines. It was something she actually saw, IMO.

FWIW this is their version of Lucifer's 'devil face' as he calls it, his true face. It's at around 1:28 in this clip. Just posting the link because spoilers.

https://youtu.be/H5l7JVzzUkU

TBH, I would think Lucifer's true face--on this show, anyway--isn't scary at all, but beautiful. He's an archangel, after all. I imagine his true face is no scarier than Gabriel's true face or Castiel's, for that matter, even though Cass isn't an archangel.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

TBH, I would think Lucifer's true face--on this show, anyway--isn't scary at all, but beautiful. He's an archangel, after all. I imagine his true face is no scarier than Gabriel's true face or Castiel's, for that matter, even though Cass isn't an archangel.

Angels are just energy aren't they until they take a vessel? Wavelengths of Celestial Intent are they not?

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Angels are just energy aren't they until they take a vessel? Wavelengths of Celestial Intent are they not?

Could be. Zachariah said his real forn had heads of lions or tigers or something. We've never actually seen the true form of an angel, but I would imagine it's actually quite majestic, even for Lucifer.

Edited February 7, 2018 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Could be. Zachariah said his real forn had heads of lions or tigers or something. We've never actually seen the true form of an angel, but I would imagine it's actually quite majestic, even for Lucifer.

I don't know. I hope his is more like just a sniveling little rat face with beady little eyes or something ridiculous like that LOL.

[gonzosgirrl]

I would guess that Lucifer's beauty got a little tarnished after millenia in Hell.

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would guess that Lucifer's beauty got a little tarnished after millenia in Hell.

True that!

[ahrtee]

I thought no one (except a "special few") could even hear an angel's true voice, and if you saw their face you got your eyes burned out.  Sam may be among the "special" (though Dean couldn't even hear Cas's voice without having his ears bleed) but Rowena shouldn't be, at least not until her latest protection spell.

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I thought no one (except a "special few") could even hear an angel's true voice, and if you saw their face you got your eyes burned out.  Sam may be among the "special" (though Dean couldn't even hear Cas's voice without having his ears bleed) but Rowena shouldn't be, at least not until her latest protection spell.

Oh that's true! I forgot about that.  Hmmmm.

[Res]

38 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I thought no one (except a "special few") could even hear an angel's true voice, and if you saw their face you got your eyes burned out.  Sam may be among the "special" (though Dean couldn't even hear Cas's voice without having his ears bleed) but Rowena shouldn't be, at least not until her latest protection spell.

But Dean could stare into Zachariah's face as his grace exploded and NO, we will never hear anymore about that, of course.

[ahrtee]

Just now, Res said:

But Dean could stare into Zachariah's face as his grace exploded and NO, we will never hear anymore about that, of course.

Yeah, I thought about that.  It probably wasn't his "real" face, though, since :  "In heaven, I have six wings and four faces, one of whom is a lion. You see this because you’re…limited." 

But that's why I thought maybe Sam (as Lucifer's "true vessel") *might* be able to look at his face without melting.  Still doesn't explain Rowena, though. :)

[Res]

9 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I'm hoping that what is going to come from this is that Sam is at the very least going to kill the Lucifer story line once and for all.  

I apologize and don't mean to offend but I really, like REALLY DON't care who kills Luci as long as someone does ASAP!!!! I mean, I know Sam definitely should be the one. I get that. But I just want Luc gone ASAP ANY WAY POSSIBLE NEVER TO RETURN!!!! SO, so over this crap SL!

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Yeah, I thought about that.  It probably wasn't his "real" face, though, since :  "In heaven, I have six wings and four faces, one of whom is a lion. You see this because you’re…limited." 

But that's why I thought maybe Sam (as Lucifer's "true vessel") *might* be able to look at his face without melting.  Still doesn't explain Rowena, though. :)

I don't know but he definitely saw him explode and grace was coming out of the vessel so  . . . but, of course, only Sam and Rowena have that bonding. 

You're probably right since that is actually the way the show rolls.