Spoilers With Speculation

[MysteryGuest]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

IMO, the only way we can have REAL Cas back...is flashbacks or Sproutifer heals him. Cas' ashy wings were shown on the ground like all the other angels who've died and stayed really most  sincerely dead and thus far, even with Gabriel that has proven true.  If ashy wings =/= death for angels then what does?

But we have an all-powerful Nephilim who protected Cas before against Dagon, so the show can easily wave their magic wand and bring Cas back, regardless of the lore up to now.  

[Jonesy]

26 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Cas has his tattered wings back.  He got them back when he got his grace back but he still cannot teleport with them. Those wings were shown as ashes, so I don't see how it can be the most current Cas either unless burned angel wings is no longer a sign of angel death.

Given Jared's screw up in Rome, why would Misha give away any kind of plot point about an AU!Cas? Misha could easily be misdirecting fans so as to not spoil what is coming. 

Misha knows how sensitive his fans are on this--the last thing he'd do is mislead so they get upset again if he pulls the rug out on them later.  Misha would not do that...he said Cas has a future, hints strongly it's not AU Cas(BUT IMPORTANTLY he only implies it, doesn't just say it...deniability) --he wouldn't trick his fans who are real tender on this subject.

Yeah I know about the tattered wings--with the ashy wings...this is a fantasy they will use sproutifer or some other trick.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

But we have an all-powerful Nephilim who protected Cas before against Dagon, so the show can easily wave their magic wand and bring Cas back, regardless of the lore up to now.  

16 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I never really got how AU Cas would work, anyway.  He only needed Jimmy's vessel to speak with Dean, since he couldn't recognize Cas' true form.  In the AU, there is no Dean, so if there's a Cas, he would just be among the fighting angels, or in someone else's form.  Now Cas de-powered or affected by the Nephilim somehow, I can see.  I don't really care if he has his powers, or not, but I want him to regain his confidence and not be the sad sack he's been for more than a few seasons.

That is why I said the only way it can be our Cas is if Sproutifer heals him. That's it.

There are scores of ways for an AU!Cas to be apparently dead!Cas. I don't see what Dean Cas and Jimmy Novak in the AU? Jimmy was Cas' vessel because it said it was in his bloodline which is why Claire was Cas' vessel, too.  Cas rescued Dean in his angel form not as Jimmy's vessel AFAIK, and like you said Cas appeared to Dean as Jimmy when Dean was overwhelmed by Cas' voice (although I have long wondered if Dean is  actually able to now see Cas' true visage, especially after he looked at Zachariah's grace and didn't go blind).

An AU!Cas could have all manner of reasons to exist as an angel. Of course, I'm of the opinion that it's possible that there is an AU!Dean because I still think that conversation was about Sam never being born in the AU and nothing to do with Dean at all. That's just MO even if others disagree with my reading.

[Pondlass1]

An AU storyline is interesting ... and fresh.

But I don't know how these writers will be able to keep things straight.  They can't even handle simple canon from this world.  Remembering the complexities of who wouldn't know who, or didn't do what, etc., will flummox them  . Also - folks would have to pop in and out of the AU for MOTWs wouldn't they?  MOTWs are awkward sometimes and slotted in when something big has gone down and the boys take off to a miscellaneous job for some damn reason 

But I do like the idea of an AU arc for season 13.  More interesting than the usual suspects (Jack and Dad)

[MysteryGuest]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

That is why I said the only way it can be our Cas is if Sproutifer heals him. That's it.

Sorry...missed that part.  

In the AU, Mary never married John and never had children.  He was her boyfriend who was killed, and she was later killed by the YED.  I don't see how there could be a Dean in that world.  

I know Cas rescued Dean in his angel form, but without a Dean, there was no reason for Cas to assume a human form.  I suppose he could have rescued someone entirely different in the AU, and might possibly have taken Jimmy's vessel to do that...if there was actually a Jimmy in the AU.  I'm not sure the writers thought out the possibilities of the AU any further than it being a place to put Lucifer for a while where he can't get to Sam and Dean.  It also adds the drama of Mary's survival in the AU, and I'm going to assume that Bobby will play a part in coming to her aid.  

To me, it just reinforces how silly it is to keep Lucifer around.  They have to always keep him contained somehow, otherwise he just kills Sam and Dean and it's show over.  At least with Crowley, you never knew whether he was going to be an ally or an enemy.  And while he might not have killed Sam and Dean, it didn't stop him from killing people they cared about, so he could still be an evil force they'd need to deal with.

[Jonesy]

6 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

An AU storyline is interesting ... and fresh.

But I don't know how these writers will be able to keep things straight.  They can't even handle simple canon from this world.  Remembering the complexities of who wouldn't know who, or didn't do what, etc., will flummox them  . Also - folks would have to pop in and out of the AU for MOTWs wouldn't they?  MOTWs are awkward sometimes and slotted in when something big has gone down and the boys take off to a miscellaneous job for some damn reason 

But I do like the idea of an AU arc for season 13.  More interesting than the usual suspects (Jack and Dad)

I can see them doing some AU characters--Bobby for one.  Can't see them doing too much time over in AU land though since they don't have the budget for a lot of this.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

Misha knows how sensitive his fans are on this--the last thing he'd do is mislead so they get upset again if he pulls the rug out on them later.  Misha would not do that...he said Cas has a future, hints strongly it's not AU Cas(BUT IMPORTANTLY he only implies it, doesn't just say it...deniability) --he wouldn't trick his fans who are real tender on this subject.

I'm a Misha fan and I love Cas almost as much as I love Dean, and  I fully believe Misha would rather misdirect  his fans than spoil something that could get him fired.  And if Misha is being sincere, then, at this juncture he might very well be telling the truth as he knows it without necessarily knowing everything yet.

For example, I learned my lesson after demon!Dean. Jensen spoke at JIBcon in  May 2014 about hoping Demon!Dean wouldn't be wrapped too quickly and then in July 2014 he KNEW that demon!Dean had already been disposed of when he went to Comic Con and announced the sizzle reel of demon!Dean and Sam's chase around the bunker which he said was the first time Sam encounters Dean as a demon...which was not precisely true because that was actually the scene in which Demon!Dean is actually re-captured by Sam and Cas for the final time before curing him.  So did Jensen know demon!Dean's fate in May 2014 and was spinning it as best he could without revealing that he already knew demon!Dean was biting the dust in the 3rd ep of s10? Or did he genuinely not know until after JIBcon? 

My point is that these actors are PR for the show even at cons and they will say as much as they can without pissing off TPTB by spoiling too much and whilst not discouraging fans from watching in the fall.  YMMV.

[Jonesy]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm a Misha fan and I love Cas almost as much as I love Dean, and  I fully believe Misha would rather misdirect  his fans than spoil something that could get him fired.  And if Misha is being sincere, then, at this juncture he might very well be telling the truth as he knows it without necessarily knowing everything yet.

For example, I learned my lesson after demon!Dean. Jensen spoke at JIBcon in  May 2014 about hoping Demon!Dean wouldn't be wrapped too quickly and then in July 2014 he KNEW that demon!Dean had already been disposed of when he went to Comic Con and announced the sizzle reel of demon!Dean and Sam's chase around the bunker which he said was the first time Sam encounters Dean as a demon...which was not precisely true because that was actually the scene in which Demon!Dean is actually re-captured by Sam and Cas for the final time before curing him.  So did Jensen know demon!Dean's fate in May 2014 and was spinning it as best he could without revealing that he already knew demon!Dean was biting the dust in the 3rd ep of s10? Or did he genuinely not know until after JIBcon? 

My point is that these actors are PR for the show even at cons and they will say as much as they can without pissing off TPTB by spoiling too much and whilst not discouraging fans from watching in the fall.  YMMV.

I almost guarantee you the show wants this spilling out after seeing the reaction to Cas's "death".  They miscalculated the degree of anger in certain quarters.  Misha wouldn't have tweeted anything about Cas having a future if told not to and this was done before Jared said anything.   And Misha wouldn't have said anything if he didn't know in the broad outlines what's up with Cas.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[DittyDotDot]

26 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

In the AU, Mary never married John and never had children.  He was her boyfriend who was killed, and she was later killed by the YED.  I don't see how there could be a Dean in that world.  

I know Cas rescued Dean in his angel form, but without a Dean, there was no reason for Cas to assume a human form.  I suppose he could have rescued someone entirely different in the AU, and might possibly have taken Jimmy's vessel to do that...if there was actually a Jimmy in the AU.  I'm not sure the writers thought out the possibilities of the AU any further than it being a place to put Lucifer for a while where he can't get to Sam and Dean.  It also adds the drama of Mary's survival in the AU, and I'm going to assume that Bobby will play a part in coming to her aid.  

To me, it just reinforces how silly it is to keep Lucifer around.  They have to always keep him contained somehow, otherwise he just kills Sam and Dean and it's show over.  At least with Crowley, you never knew whether he was going to be an ally or an enemy.  And while he might not have killed Sam and Dean, it didn't stop him from killing people they cared about, so he could still be an evil force they'd need to deal with.

I'm not convinced they are doing anything much with the alternate universe, but it is fun to speculate, so:

1. It could be that the alternate universe is not only the universe the boys never saved, but could also be one where Mary's mind isn't wiped after the events of The Song Remains the Same. Mary was pregnant with Dean and both Sam and Dean told her to leave John so Sam would never be born. So, maybe there is a Dean who grew up hunting with Mary? Although, Bobby would've probably known about Mary's kid, so, yeah, I don't think there is a Dean in the alternate universe...still, that was fun!
2. Without there being a Dean, perhaps Cass is tasked with a different human who the angels thought to be the righteous man? As long as there was a Jimmy in that universe, there is a possibility Cass possessed him for whatever reason. However, I kinda hope the alternate version of Cass--if there even is one--is played by someone completely different than Misha. I think that would be a fun way to mess with the audience's expectations--as long as they have real Cass too, of course.
3. I agree it feels like just a place to holder for Lucifer and Mary for the time being. I'm still holding out hope that the spawn will go to fix the alternate universe--and kills Lucifer--by episode two and sends Mary back. Easy peasy, right? ;)

Along those lines, have we got any confirmation of Pelligrino's return in S13? Or Samantha Smith's, for that matter? I still wonder if they're even planning to visit the alternate universe or if it'll be a done deal for Lucifer and Mary after the first couple episodes back.

Edited June 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

In the AU, Mary never married John and never had children.  He was her boyfriend who was killed, and she was later killed by the YED.  I don't see how there could be a Dean in that world.  

AU!Mary didn't have to be married to John to have his baby after he died. Maybe AU!Bobby didn't know all the facts about Mary's life or it's been so long ago that his has details wrong. I KNOW, I KNOW an imperfect, doesn't know ALL the things all the time!Bobby would be shocking (and IMO welcome). Maybe AU!Mary didn't tell him or anyone else.

Dean is 3 almost 4 years older than Sam in our world.  Maybe Dean is 40 in the AU and Mary got pregnant right before John died in the AU if AU!Bobby said he died 40 years or so ago. Maybe Cas was lied to about the AU, maybe Bobby was wrong and the facts are wrong. Maybe  Sam was born and said yes to Lucifer in the AU. Maybe both boys were born in the AU and they both said yes to Lucifer and Michael and that is the result. Maybe that was an AU!Cas telling the story about the boys and not actual!Cas. Maybe time is wonky in the AU

I'm not being facetious.  I'm not dismissing anything being possible in an alternate universe.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Cas has his tattered wings back.  He got them back when he got his grace back but he still cannot teleport with them. Those wings were shown as ashes, so I don't see how it can be the most current Cas either unless burned angel wings is no longer a sign of angel death.

Given Jared's screw up in Rome, why would Misha give away any kind of plot point about an AU!Cas? Misha could easily be misdirecting fans so as to not spoil what is coming. 

Personally, I'm going to be pissed if they negate one of the very few consistent pieces of canon we have left intact. Burned wings = angel death. I am all for evolving mythology, but the wholesale disregard for canon really bugs. I still think lumping this fake 'death' in with Crowley's was calculated and shitty on the part of the showrunner(s). What little respect I had left for Dabb is dangling by a thread and I'm sadly certain it's going to be cut loose completely come 13x01.

Edited June 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
spelling

[Pondlass1]

38 minutes ago, Jakes said:

they don't have the budget for a lot of this.

Well, any Vancouver skyline with the colour ashed out (a la purgatory) could work.  Also - AU characters might spill out into OUR world.  That could be fun and  interesting.  And AU -Sam and AU-Dean don't have to be OUR Sam and Dean Winchester.  Just reasonable facsimiles.  Hunters, brothers, saddled with their own  family shit.  We could run into an AU Cas too.  His backstory is totally different and he wears leather and denim., but wings gone and he helps out AU Sam and Dean.  Same but different.  

Honestly - if they do run with an AU storyline for a few episodes - they're not going to dig deep into 'what abouts' like we're doing here.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Pondlass1

[Jonesy]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Personally, I'm going to be pissed if they negate one of the very few consistent pieces of canon we have left intact. Burned wings = angel death. I am all for evolving mythology, but the wholesale disregard for canon really bugs. I still think lumping this fake 'death' in with Crowley's was calculated and shitty on the part of the showrunner(s). What little respect I had left for Dabb is dangling by a thread and I'm sadly certain it's going to be cut loose completely come 13x01.

Well they already set up sproutifer to have the power to do that and they already gave him a connection to Cas.

[MysteryGuest]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

AU!Mary didn't have to be married to John to have his baby after he died. Maybe AU!Bobby didn't know all the facts about Mary's life or it's been so long ago that his has details wrong. I KNOW, I KNOW an imperfect, doesn't know ALL the things all the time!Bobby would be shocking (and IMO welcome). Maybe AU!Mary didn't tell him or anyone else.

Dean is 3 almost 4 years older than Sam in our world.  Maybe Dean is 40 in the AU and Mary got pregnant right before John died in the AU if AU!Bobby said he died 40 years or so ago. Maybe Cas was lied to about the AU, maybe Bobby was wrong and the facts are wrong. Maybe  Sam was born and said yes to Lucifer in the AU. Maybe both boys were born in the AU and they both said yes to Lucifer and Michael and that is the result. Maybe that was an AU!Cas telling the story about the boys and not actual!Cas. Maybe time is wonky in the AU

I'm not being facetious.  I'm not dismissing anything being possible in an alternate universe.

With SPN, absolutely anything can happen, regardless of whether it makes sense based on canon, or just simple laws of logic, so no speculation is too "out there" for this show.

With that being said, I think Cas was pretty definitive about how what happened in the AU happened due to the non-existence of Sam and Dean.  I think it was one more way of showing them just how important they are in their world.  The show started out with both of them thinking they were cursed, or tainted, or somehow not worthy of good things happening to them.  In the past few seasons, I think they've really found some peace with their lives as hunters, and understand their significance in keeping the world safe.

Personally, I doubt we'll spend that much time in the AU, but I can absolutely see some of the AU world crossing over to our world.

[rue721]

43 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Well, any Vancouver skyline with the colour ashed out (a la purgatory) could work.  Also - AU characters might spill out into OUR world.

Remember back in the day, when OUR world was the one with the desaturated color?

Maybe OUR world is the AU ;)

I still want to meet a Sam and Dean raised by Mary instead of by John. And a Mary who was left a widow in '83 instead of a John who was left a widower. That's really my only wish for an AU.

I'm not looking for something as complicated (and integrated into the overall show) as Fringe's AU because that's just not SPN's speed. But maybe something on the level of Smallville's Earth2.

Otherwise, I think this AU might be a fun way to reintroduce characters who are dead in our world...except that so far, the only people mentioned who I would want to meet (like au!Mary or au!Rufus or au!Sam-and-Dean) are dead or never born. Oh well, hopefully some will still come out of the woodwork.

I don't think that the AU is too expensive to film in in any case. What we saw so far looked like a giant sandbox, and they could probably use their same old sets and locations with a little bit of extra dressing and/or camera tricks. I don't think it would be much more expensive than the places they usually use, anyway.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I don't think that the AU is too expensive to film in in any case. What we saw so far looked like a giant sandbox, and they could probably use their same old sets and locations with a little bit of extra dressing and/or camera tricks. I don't think it would be much more expensive than the places they usually use, anyway.

Apparently the finale was extremely effects heavy--someone tweeted is was one of their heaviest one ever--and other than the rift itself the only part that was effects heavy was the alternate universe. It looks like it was completely shot on a green screen stage and then the actual setting--the sandbox, the pillars, etc.--was computer generated. I don't think they can sustain that sort of thing for many episodes. I think they could do the alternate universe quite simply as you said, but they set it up here as something not very sustainable, IMO.

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I almost guarantee you the show wants this spilling out after seeing the reaction to Cas's "death".  They miscalculated the degree of anger in certain quarters.  Misha wouldn't have tweeted anything about Cas having a future if told not to and this was done before Jared said anything.   And Misha wouldn't have said anything if he didn't know in the broad outlines what's up with Cas.

Sorry, I'm not really following you here. Are you suggesting that Jared's screw up was not really a screw up but intentional?Are you saying if they killed off Cas they changed their minds after the feedback?

IMO,  TPTB know exactly how Cas/Misha are perceived in fandom by his fans, his detractors, and his flat out vile haters. I don't think they miscalculated anything. Dabb wrote what he wanted to write.

Misha can have an idea of something now and that might change later 1 episode into the season.  I've been saying that maybe Cas survives the finale but then dies by mid season. Or he knows and he simply is forbidden to say because he'll get fired. That's a real concern. I'm pretty sure that's why Jensen framed the scene he presented at Comic Con they way he did instead of saying 'Oh well yeah Dean gets captured and cured here' .

Here is Misha's panel. Take a listen and hen decide for yourselves whether or not Misha is really suggesting there is no AU!Cas. Misha asked "Where did those rumors come from? Who is leaking this information? Because, leaks as far as I'm concerned are the primary problem" (Clearly making a bit of political commentary). But Misha also states later "I wouldn't put too much stock in the rumors or Twitter either".  Yet Misha uses Twitter all the time to communicate serious things to his followers. So....who knows what he really means. My impression is that it doesn't mean flat out there will be no AU Castiel at all.  YMMV

NSFW for language.

 

 

Anyway, like I said before, I talked myself into Real!Cas being alive in the AU or Sproutifer saving him. Butt I'm not convinced of that anymore. Cas' was killed by angel blade which seems to work by destroying an angel's grace. It seems to me even if Sproutifer saves him, how can he be our Real!Cas if his grace is gone? I don't see how Sproutifer can restore his  blue grace, but will end up being Sproutifer's gold grace that heals him. I think Cas might have already been altered because when he healed Dean, the wound on Dean's face went gold which I thought was strange. 

I'm really not trying to be a Negative Nancy here but I legit do not see how Cas can be OUR Cas with his grace without Ghuck or Amara healing him to his seraphim status.

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm really not trying to be a Negative Nancy here but I legit do not see how Cas can be OUR Cas with his grace without Ghuck or Amara healing him to his seraphim status.

It's possible we'll get a hybrid Castiel, for the very reasons you state.  If he has our Cas' memories and emotional connections, but has different powers somehow due to whatever the nephilim does to bring him back.  I wouldn't mind that.  I just won't be keen on Cas coming back as a complete stranger to Sam and Dean.  The reality is that because Sam and Dean deal with supernatural beings all the time, they have to have someone like a Cas or Rowena in their corner to help when things go really bad.  Their level of power is inconsistent because sometimes it would make things too easy for the boys (saving Charlie), but other times the only way out is with a little angel power or magic spell.  I don't see that changing in season 13.

[Pondlass1]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

the finale was extremely effects heav

I don't know how much time they'll spend in the AU, but the realm would have a variety of landscapes I'd think.  Don't have to be expensive. The backdrop in the finale was a green screen desolate land. But there could be areas of fields, forests, streams, maybe even cities, etc.  Bobby's gotta eat and drink  and buy headscarves.   They just de-saturate for effect.

The AU is a place where we all exist, but life got different.  I'd never have met my hubby if I didn't go to that dance... instead I stayed home and met some abusive guy who knocked me about so I murdered him.  

But I'm overthinking of course.  I doubt they'll give it more than one episode.

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

 I just won't be keen on Cas coming back as a complete stranger to Sam and Dean.

I've only seen the finale once and maybe wasn't paying attention.  I thought it was AU Cas that was killed.??

[The Morning Star]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I'm not really following you here. Are you suggesting that Jared's screw up was not really a screw up but intentional?Are you saying if they killed off Cas they changed their minds after the feedback?

IMO,  TPTB know exactly how Cas/Misha are perceived in fandom by his fans, his detractors, and his flat out vile haters. I don't think they miscalculated anything. Dabb wrote what he wanted to write.

Misha can have an idea of something now and that might change later 1 episode into the season.  I've been saying that maybe Cas survives the finale but then dies by mid season. Or he knows and he simply is forbidden to say because he'll get fired. That's a real concern. I'm pretty sure that's why Jensen framed the scene he presented at Comic Con they way he did instead of saying 'Oh well yeah Dean gets captured and cured here' .

Here is Misha's panel. Take a listen and hen decide for yourselves whether or not Misha is really suggesting there is no AU!Cas. Misha asked "Where did those rumors come from? Who is leaking this information? Because, leaks as far as I'm concerned are the primary problem" (Clearly making a bit of political commentary). But Misha also states later "I wouldn't put too much stock in the rumors or Twitter either".  Yet Misha uses Twitter all the time to communicate serious things to his followers. So....who knows what he really means. My impression is that it doesn't mean flat out there will be no AU Castiel at all.  YMMV

NSFW for language.

 

 

 

Anyway, like I said before, I talked myself into Real!Cas being alive in the AU or Sproutifer saving him. Butt I'm not convinced of that anymore. Cas' was killed by angel blade which seems to work by destroying an angel's grace. It seems to me even if Sproutifer saves him, how can he be our Real!Cas if his grace is gone? I don't see how Sproutifer can restore his  blue grace, but will end up being Sproutifer's gold grace that heals him. I think Cas might have already been altered because when he healed Dean, the wound on Dean's face went gold which I thought was strange. 

I'm really not trying to be a Negative Nancy here but I legit do not see how Cas can be OUR Cas with his grace without Ghuck or Amara healing him to his seraphim status.

Exactly!

Our Cas is blue eyed Seraphim Cas just as our Dean is like our Dean and our Sam is our Sam.

Nephilim altered urine golden Cas is not our Cas.

[Jonesy]

39 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Sorry, I'm not really following you here. Are you suggesting that Jared's screw up was not really a screw up but intentional?Are you saying if they killed off Cas they changed their minds after the feedback?

IMO,  TPTB know exactly how Cas/Misha are perceived in fandom by his fans, his detractors, and his flat out vile haters. I don't think they miscalculated anything. Dabb wrote what he wanted to write.

Misha can have an idea of something now and that might change later 1 episode into the season.  I've been saying that maybe Cas survives the finale but then dies by mid season. Or he knows and he simply is forbidden to say because he'll get fired. That's a real concern. I'm pretty sure that's why Jensen framed the scene he presented at Comic Con they way he did instead of saying 'Oh well yeah Dean gets captured and cured here' .

Here is Misha's panel. Take a listen and hen decide for yourselves whether or not Misha is really suggesting there is no AU!Cas. Misha asked "Where did those rumors come from? Who is leaking this information? Because, leaks as far as I'm concerned are the primary problem" (Clearly making a bit of political commentary). But Misha also states later "I wouldn't put too much stock in the rumors or Twitter either".  Yet Misha uses Twitter all the time to communicate serious things to his followers. So....who knows what he really means. My impression is that it doesn't mean flat out there will be no AU Castiel at all.  YMMV

NSFW for language.

 

 

 

Anyway, like I said before, I talked myself into Real!Cas being alive in the AU or Sproutifer saving him. Butt I'm not convinced of that anymore. Cas' was killed by angel blade which seems to work by destroying an angel's grace. It seems to me even if Sproutifer saves him, how can he be our Real!Cas if his grace is gone? I don't see how Sproutifer can restore his  blue grace, but will end up being Sproutifer's gold grace that heals him. I think Cas might have already been altered because when he healed Dean, the wound on Dean's face went gold which I thought was strange. 

I'm really not trying to be a Negative Nancy here but I legit do not see how Cas can be OUR Cas with his grace without Ghuck or Amara healing him to his seraphim status.

Misha said Cas was coming back before Jared said something...so he wasn't covering up when he first mentioned Cas back and has a future.  Then later he  says we will see Cas again and he's transformed.   He's talking about Cas not a stranger AU Cas.   He directly always says Cas not any new character.  Also Cas was still Cas in the finale even with boosted power and gold eye flash...was demonstrably Cas though under the influence of the vision. 

So I'm not worried about getting AU Cas at all.  Now of course if you want to worry...go ahead. Lets do this...friendly bet I say we get our Cas back--you say we do NOT.  Winner gets bragging rights on who was right.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[MysteryGuest]

4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I've only seen the finale once and maybe wasn't paying attention.  I thought it was AU Cas that was killed.??

It's all speculation at this point.  Our Cas ran through the portal to attack Lucifer with the Angel Blade, and Sam pulled Dean back through the portal to their side.  Then a minute later Cas came back through, with Lucifer following and stabbing him from behind.  There really wasn't much time for AU Cas to show up and swap places with our Cas, but until October, we won't know for sure.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Anyway, like I said before, I talked myself into Real!Cas being alive in the AU or Sproutifer saving him. Butt I'm not convinced of that anymore. Cas' was killed by angel blade which seems to work by destroying an angel's grace. It seems to me even if Sproutifer saves him, how can he be our Real!Cas if his grace is gone?

Cass has been without his grace before and still been our Cass. As long as Cass has his history, his physical makeup really isn't all that important to me. 

9 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't know how much time they'll spend in the AU, but the realm would have a variety of landscapes I'd think.  Don't have to be expensive. The backdrop in the finale was a green screen desolate land. But there could be areas of fields, forests, streams, maybe even cities, etc.  Bobby's gotta eat and drink  and buy headscarves.   They just de-saturate for effect.

Yes, as I said, it could be done quite simply, but what they did in the finale was not simple and, IMO, not sustainable for this little show's little budget. As always, it all depends on where they go from here.

[catrox14]

20 minutes ago, Jakes said:

So I'm not worried about getting AU Cas at all.  Now of course if you want to worry...go ahead. Lets do this...friendly bet I say we get our Cas back--you say we do NOT.  Winner gets bragging rights on who was right.

I have postulated many options including AU!Cas being the one that died and OUR!Cas being alive and well in the AU because of seeing the strange ashy outline of "Cas'" wings and that I think Cas was behaving oddly.  

I'm trying to figure out how OUR Cas can exist in his form as we knew him before Sproutifer powered him up, like I said in my other comments. :)

LOL. I don't need to make a bet.  If I'm right I'll brag about them when the time comes like I always have LOL. I didn't make any guarantees either.  So thanks but no thanks?

[Jonesy]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I have postulated many options including AU!Cas being the one that died and OUR!Cas being alive and well in the AU because of seeing the strange ashy outline of "Cas'" wings and that I think Cas was behaving oddly.  

I'm trying to figure out how OUR Cas can exist in his form as we knew him before Sproutifer powered him up, like I said in my other comments. :)

LOL. I don't need to make a bet.  If I'm right I'll brag about them when the time comes like I always have LOL. I didn't make any guarantees either.  So thanks but no thanks?

Yes I brought up in our various posts that I don't buy your arguments and thinks it's clear Cas will be back.  So we will see.  So no official bet--lol!  But we are both on record anyway.  I'll continue not to be worried and agree to disagree.  Is it possible you are right?  Sure but I don't think so at all.   IMO you can can be happy when our Cas is back.

[catrox14]

28 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Cass has been without his grace before and still been our Cass. As long as Cass has his history, his physical makeup really isn't all that important to me. 

True but he took on another seraphim's grace which was only temporary and he was going to die when it burned out of him. Would this also only be temporary?

[Jonesy]

13 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

True but he took on another seraphim's grace which was only temporary and he was going to die when it burned out of him. Would this also only be temporary?

Cas wasn' t going to die when Metatron took the Grace and made him human--it was stealing another angel's Grace that was causing him to die.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Jakes said:

Yes I brought up in our various posts that I don't buy your arguments and thinks it's clear Cas will be back.  So we will see.  So no official bet--lol!  But we are both on record anyway.  I'll continue not to be worried and agree to disagree.  Is it possible you are right?  Sure but I don't think so at all.   IMO you can can be happy when our Cas is back.

But I never said OUR Cas wouldn't be back at all. I've said before how we could get OUR Cas back. At the same time I'm also not convinced that OUR Cas will be remain to the end of show. I guess I don't really see where we are differing at all other than you thinking Misha's words are what you consider to be the final word on the matter and there will be no AU!Cas.

[Jonesy]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

But I never said OUR Cas wouldn't be back at all. I've said before how we could get OUR Cas back. At the same time I'm also not convinced that OUR Cas will be remain to the end of show. I guess I don't really see where we are differing at all other than you thinking Misha's words are what you consider to be the final word on the matter and there will be no AU!Cas.

I said Misha saying our Cas will be back--I buy.  But you said only by God or Amara--which doesn't seem likely, which seemed to be your point and you seem to saying you don't think we will get real Cas...No?  You even reversed yourself on Jack doing it--correct?  Can you clarify the odds then of real, Cas showing up?  I'll say 95%.

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

True but he took on another seraphim's grace which was only temporary and he was going to die when it burned out of him. Would this also only be temporary?

 

2 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Cas wasn' t going to die when Metaron took the Grace and made him human--it was stealing another angel's Grace that was causing him to die.

Quoting myself above.

That's what I said. That Cas had temporary grace from another angel. He was going to die once that burned out. That's why Hannah wanted to get Cas' grace from Metatron because he was going to die.  I don't understand where what I said is different than what you said.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

True but he took on another seraphim's grace which was only temporary and he was going to die when it burned out of him. Would this also only be temporary?

Cass was just fine without his grace, he could've lived without his grace forever. So, it could be temporary, I'd prefer it wasn't though. That way the writers wouldn't have the convenient excuse or the crutch to fall back on either. I'm just saying, I don't really care about the physical nature of Castiel, I only care that we get the character back--the history, the relationships, etc. 

[Jonesy]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Quoting myself above.

That's what I said. That Cas had temporary grace from another angel. He was going to die once that burned out. That's why Hannah wanted to get Cas' grace from Metatron because he was going to die.  I don't understand where what I said is different than what you said.

Was confused because you asked if a Cas return without Grace would be temporary like when Cas stole the Grace.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[catrox14]

Just now, Jakes said:

I said Misha saying our Cas will be back--I buy.  But you said only by God or Amara--which doesn't seem likely, which seemed to be your point and you seem to saying you don't think we will get real Cas...No?  You even reversed yourself on Jack doing it--correct?  Can you clarify the odds then of real, Cas showing up?  I'll say 95%.

I'm not reversing myself. I'm less confident than I was before.  I'm saying that I still think it's possible that AU!Cas is the one that died and that OUR Cas is in the AU. I'm saying that if it is OUR!Cas that died in the finale then I don't see how he can be fully OUR seraphim blue graced Cas that was existing with his charred wings, his ability to heal others, same everything if he's re-powered with Sproutifer's funky grace. IMO he was already changed by Sproutifer to a degree. 

I have many thoughts about Cas' status and I've never claimed to 100% right nor that I'm making any kind of guarantee.

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Cass was just fine without his grace, he could've lived without his grace forever. So, it could be temporary, I'd prefer it wasn't though. That way the writers wouldn't have the convenient excuse or the crutch to fall back on either. I'm just saying, I don't really care about the physical nature of Castiel, I only care that we get the character back--the history, the relationships, etc. 

Cas could have lived without his grace as until he died as a mortal human, which happened April murdered him. 

I guess to me a part human/part archangel nephilim would have the power to alter Cas significantly and permanently . That is what I worry about.

[Jonesy]

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm not reversing myself. I'm less confident than I was before.  I'm saying that I still think it's possible that AU!Cas is the one that died and that OUR Cas is in the AU. I'm saying that if it is OUR!Cas that died in the finale then I don't see how he can be fully OUR seraphim blue graced Cas that was existing with his charred wings, his ability to heal others, same everything if he's re-powered with Sproutifer's funky grace. IMO he was already changed by Sproutifer to a degree. 

I have many thoughts about Cas' status and I've never claimed to 100% right nor that I'm making any kind of guarantee.

That's why I was asking for clarification.  Don't know about FULLY--but Cas can be real Cas if he's not identical.  How sproutifer would work it--and how well, we can only guess at.  They may have a totally different way to bring Cas back too--who knows?

So you think we may get real Cas then. 

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[catrox14]

Quoting myself again

Quote

True but he took on another seraphim's grace which was only temporary and he was going to die when it burned out of him. Would this also only be temporary?

6 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Was confused because you asked if a Cas return without Grace would be temporary like when Cas stole the Grace.

I didn't say it was a return without grace. If Cas' seraphim blue grace is burned out  via angel blade and Sproutifer uses his own grace then it should eventually kill Cas too. Maybe it will make him more powerful temporarily and it might kill him faster too since it's archangel grace. Or maybe it will last longer but theoretically it should kill him too, hence my use of temporary. 

[Jonesy]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Cass has been without his grace before and still been our Cass. As long as Cass has his history, his physical makeup really isn't all that important to me. 

Yes, as I said, it could be done quite simply, but what they did in the finale was not simple and, IMO, not sustainable for this little show's little budget. As always, it all depends on where they go from here.

Well CARTROX you were answering this above quote about Cas returning without his Grace--and asking if that would be temporary.  So that was confusing...Cas would just be human Cas again and not dying...just mortal.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Quoting myself again

I didn't say it was a return without grace. If Cas' seraphim blue grace is burned out  via angel blade and Sproutifer uses his own grace then it should eventually kill Cas too. Maybe it will make him more powerful temporarily and it might kill him faster too since it's archangel grace. Or maybe it will last longer but theoretically it should kill him too, hence my use of temporary. 

I have no idea how they're going to resurrect Cass, but perhaps the spawn doesn't infuse him with his own grace? Maybe he just resurrects Cass as a mortal human? ::shrugs::

[catrox14]

Just now, DittyDotDot said:

I have no idea how they're going to resurrect Cass, but perhaps the spawn doesn't infuse him with his own grace? Maybe he just resurrects Cass as a mortal human? ::shrugs::

Oh that could definitely happen. I'm not excluding it.  I'm not averse to a human Cas that would be like human Cas from s9. 

[Jonesy]

Ca

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I have no idea how they're going to resurrect Cass, but perhaps the spawn doesn't infuse him with his own grace? Maybe he just resurrects Cass as a mortal human? ::shrugs::

Yes we have no idea what they might use to bring Cas back.  Or exactly how.  That said I doubt Cas comes back Grace free--but not impossible.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Jakes

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Jakes said:

Well they already set up sproutifer to have the power to do that and they already gave him a connection to Cas.

Oh, I know they can do it. They likely will do it. I just don't like it.

OAN, both Briana and Kim keeping hinting that there are 'things to come' for them. If my wish comes true, they'll get their Wayward spinoff and take Dabb with them.

Edited June 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[rue721]

If Jack reanimates Cas but leaves Kelly rotting in the bedroom, I'm gonna be pissed.

I will also be pissed if Sam and Dean just abandon Mary in the AU.

I was pissed when Sam did that to Dean at the end of S7 and will be *even more* pissed if they do it with Mary now, because Mary is even more vulnerable than Dean was (not as good of a hunter), and because there are two of them in Our World now and they're in reasonably good shape, in contrast to the one lonesome and severely messed up (crazy) Sam on in his own in Our World at the end of the S7 finale.

[catrox14]

45 minutes ago, Jakes said:

Well CARTROX you were answering this above quote about Cas returning without his Grace--and asking if that would be temporary.  So that was confusing...Cas would just be human Cas again and not dying...just mortal.

I was agreeing with Dot that Cas had been human and living without his grace until he would die like a normal human. My answer specifically mentioning that Cas took another angel's grace as temporary was  a separate thing.

At any rate I hope it's all cleared up now.

[SueB]

Close up on the symbol. Notes:

- It's a clawed hand in the center

- While the 'd' at the end COULD be a backwards/upside down 'p', that middle character does NOT look like an 'n' in any orientation IMO. Sussing this out is probably a valid exercise. 

My initial take: shit is f*cked up. I know.  Insightful.  /sarcasm. 

Apologies for bad pic.  Using phone for screen capture. 

[MysteryGuest]

38 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

OAN, both Briana and Kim keeping hinting that there are 'things to come' for them. If my wish comes true, they'll get their Wayward spinoff and take Dabb with them.

I love Jody and Donna on SPN...not sure how that would translate to a show of their own, frankly.  Not saying they won't try it, but I'm not sure I see it taking off.  I'm just really cold on the whole spinoff idea until the current show has come to an end.  I don't want them giving up on SPN because they want to go with the shiny new toy.

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

 

Close up on the symbol. Notes:

- It's a clawed hand in the center

- While the 'd' at the end COULD be a backwards/upside down 'p', that middle character does NOT look like an 'n' in any orientation IMO. Sussing this out is probably a valid exercise. 

 

It could be a lower-case "n", possibly?  It certainly does lead one to believe there will be some sort of split taking place.  I don't mind if the show is part AU and part our world, or a co-mingling of both worlds, but I really want Sam and Dean still fighting on the same side.  

[gonzosgirrl]

22 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I love Jody and Donna on SPN...not sure how that would translate to a show of their own, frankly.  Not saying they won't try it, but I'm not sure I see it taking off.  I'm just really cold on the whole spinoff idea until the current show has come to an end.  I don't want them giving up on SPN because they want to go with the shiny new toy.

I didn't mean I like the idea or would watch it - I have zero interest in it - but it's no secret that I think Dabb has been writing to a spin off since the moment he took over, and I think this is the one he wants. I know there's an element of being careful what you wish for here. There's a risk that whoever would take his place would be even worse than Dabb. But I'm willing to chance that given I think he's botched it at every turn this season. ETA: I should emphasize that Dabb leaving is only my wish - but I do believe they are going to try the Wayward Daughters thing, whether Dabb is involved or not.

And for the record I love both Donna and Jody as supporting/recurring SPN characters. And I like Cas, too. They can wank their Doom!World however they want - it's literally uncharted territory. But there are few enough things to count on in the SPN world, and  burned-out wings equals dead angel should be one of them.  The only way I won't see it as a huge cheat is if what came back through the portal and was killed was not the real Cas, or Chuck himself resurrects him.

Edited June 11, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't mean I like the idea or would watch it - I have zero interest in it - but it's no secret that I think Dabb has been writing to a spin off since the moment he took over, and I think this is the one he wants. I know there's an element of being careful what you wish for here. There's a risk that whoever would take his place would be even worse than Dabb. But I'm willing to chance that given I think he's botched it at every turn this season. ETA: I should emphasize that Dabb leaving is only my wish - but I do believe they are going to try the Wayward Daughters thing, whether Dabb is involved or not.

And for the record I love both Donna and Jody as supporting/recurring SPN characters. And I like Cas, too. They can wank their Doom!World however they want - it's literally uncharted territory. But there are few enough things to count on in the SPN world, and  burned-out wings equals dead angel should be one of them.  The only way I won't see it as a huge cheat is if what came back through the portal and was killed was not the real Cas, or Chuck himself resurrects him.

Just to be clear, 'no secret' is still speculation.  There's no interview or cast/crew/writer statement that has said he's working on any spin-off since the failed Bloodlines.  The Network have said they are interested if WBTV offers one but nothing from the studio that says they are.  OTOH, we HAVE had a potential hint from Bob Singer prior to 'Ladies Drink Free' that there might be one.  And now Brianna/Kim seem to be hinting.  But again, if that comes to pass, that may or may not be Dabb.  He's pretty busy with the Supernatural flagship.  When he did Bloodlines, Adam Glass was head writer. Since then he's been promoted to first Head Writer and later co-a Show Runner.  And it's not like Singer writes. So, I'd say Dabb is pretty busy.  

 

So, what if a spin-off is in the works and Dabb is not heading it up?   Who WOULD be?  I think that is an interesting question.  

Edited June 11, 2017 by SueB

[ILoveReading]

I figure we'll get Sam and Dean looking for ways to open rifts.  Sam will figure it out but it won't be the one they need, and we'll get a few eps of them venturing into other Alt-worlds looking for mom

With the exception of the Scooby Doo episode, if we get an alt-world episode I think it will be like My Heart Will go On.  It will look like the the regular world just with a few key differences, like Ellen and Jo being alive or Dean driving a mustang.  I think we'll only see the AU either at the mid-season premier or the season finale, when its time to rescue mom and let Lucifer escape.

They don't have the budget for anything else.

As for a Wayward daughters spin off, its not something I'd watch.  I like Donna, and Jody, and I don't mind Alex and Claire but I'm not really intested in them on their own.  Plus, I figure, using "nostalgia" I can see Dabb trying to recreate a lot of iconic Dean moments.  My friend bet me that if they did WayWard daughters that the opening scene would have Claire breaking into Alex's dorm room and telling her that Jody went on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few day.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

 When he did Bloodlines, Adam Glass was head writer. Since then he's been promoted to first Head Writer and later co-a Show Runner.  And it's not like Singer writes. So, I'd say Dabb is pretty busy.  

That must be a change because the showrunner is typically the head writer and responsible for the story arcs even if other writers do the episodes. And under s9, Carver was the showrunner. When did it change for SPN?

[ILoveReading]

13 minutes ago, SueB said:

There's a risk that whoever would take his place would be even worse than Dabb.

I think the writers with the most seniority after Dabb (and I'm basing this on the rotation schedule) would be Buck/Lemming or Berens. 

[DittyDotDot]

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

Just to be clear, 'no secret' is still speculation.  There's no interview or cast/crew/writer statement that has said he's working on any spin-off since the failed Bloodlines.  The Network have said they are interested if WBTV offers one but nothing from the studio that says they are.  OTOH, we HAVE had a potential hint from Bob Singer prior to 'Ladies Drink Free' that there might be one.  And now Brianna/Kim seem to be hinting.  But again, if that comes to pass, that may or may not be Dabb.  He's pretty busy with the Supernatural flagship.  When he did Bloodlines, Adam Glass was head writer. Since then he's been promoted to first Head Writer and later co-a Show Runner.  And it's not like Singer writes. So, I'd say Dabb is pretty busy.  

 

So, what if a spin-off is in the works and Dabb is not heading it up?   Who WOULD be?  I think that is an interesting question.  

I think you meant Andrew Dabb instead of Adam Glass?

Anyway, I agree, IMO, if--and that's a really big IF, IMO--they are doing a spinoff with Jodi and Donna, I don't see Dabb going with it. I think it far more likely Dabb would stay with the flagship and they'd find someone else to run the spinoff. I think it would be likely to be someone from the outside, too. But, I do think that's the interesting question too: who would they get?

24 minutes ago, SueB said:

 OTOH, we HAVE had a potential hint from Bob Singer prior to 'Ladies Drink Free' that there might be one.

Singer specifically said it was for something next season...meaning S13. If they were planning a spinoff, I think they'd have to have it further in the works by now to get it on the schedule for next season? However, something smaller scale like a small mini series I think they could still get into production and aired in the spring or summer.

What I really thought at the time was they were planning to have Claire as a regular in S13, but now I'm wondering if they're just planning on using all the ladies more this season. Maybe Jodi will be the new Bobby in this new hunter system they try to put together?

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't mean I like the idea or would watch it - I have zero interest in it - but it's no secret that I think Dabb has been writing to a spin off since the moment he took over, and I think this is the one he wan

See, I don't see Dabb having any interest in the Wayward Daughters idea. Based on interviews and such, it seems to me Singer is the one interested in that idea, not Dabb.

Edited June 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot