Spoilers With Speculation

[ILoveReading]

Jared did use almost identical words as Jensen did at the end of season 9.  He said that he was surprised the writers "went there" and he was excited for it.

So I think the baby powering up Sam is a real possibility. 

[Idahoforspn]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Jared did use almost identical words as Jensen did at the end of season 9.  He said that he was surprised the writers "went there" and he was excited for it.

So I think the baby powering up Sam is a real possibility. 

Please NO!!!!

[MysteryGuest]

I'm hopeful that the Lance of Michael will be seen again.  Otherwise it will just feel like another dropped storyline.  They deliberately showed Dean picking it up and taking it with them.  If it were a "one and done" weapon, they wouldn't have done that.  Of course, this doesn't mean we'll actually get to see it again, but we certainly should.  I would be thrilled if the Lance were used to take out Lucifer once and for all, and since I want him gone more than anything else, I don't even care who gets to do the honors.  Just please make it so!

I didn't get the impression that Lucifer was controlling the Nephilim.  The question is whether the Nephilim was acting out of just basic survival, or whether there's any meaning to the fact that he powered up Cas and took down Daegon.  I just don't know that the show would make the Nephilim good, unless the child will eventually take down the father.  

[ILoveReading]

Saw this on Tumblr.  We know the details of what lead up to the fire, so I hope if this is accurate, it shows the immediate aftermath of the fire. 

[Wayward Son]

13 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I didn't get the impression that Lucifer was controlling the Nephilim.  The question is whether the Nephilim was acting out of just basic survival, or whether there's any meaning to the fact that he powered up Cas and took down Daegon.  I just don't know that the show would make the Nephilim good, unless the child will eventually take down the father.  

I'm honestly undecided about the nephilim. I keep going back and forth between thinking the Nephilim is going to be good and they'll use the mission of raising it as a way of writing Cas/Misha out of the show, or it is going to be evil and this is once again a part of the Cas gets played trope. However, I am certain that even if the nephilim is evil there is more to its actions than simple self-preservation. In my opinion, if its motives were simply about staying alive then it would have allowed Dagon to kill Castiel and the Winchester's who were arguably the greatest threats to its safety, at least prior to his conversion in Castiel's case. Then there is the fact that Dagon was portrayed as being significantly more powerful than Castiel. If it needed a protector imagine just how powerful a Nephilim powered up Dagon would have been.

 

4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Saw this on Tumblr.  We know the details of what lead up to the fire, so I hope if this is accurate, it shows the immediate aftermath of the fire. 

Ooh I'd love that! An exploration of the early post fire days would be amazing! Although wouldn't they need Matt Cohen back as young John?

Edited April 30, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Aeryn13]

This is tricky. Post-fire John is canonically Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Of course post-fire Dean would be the kid actor from the Pilot who I`m sure is grown up by now. But they have recasted the kids multiple times and he was only a small presence in the show. John, I don`t think they would do that.  

And this kid looks older than 4, I think.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Saw this on Tumblr.  We know the details of what lead up to the fire, so I hope if this is accurate, it shows the immediate aftermath of the fire. 

WHOA......what?

For what it's worth IMDB can be unreliable for casting since everybody and their brother can make edits, but if that is accurate does this portend a John/JDM appearance??

JDM had time to film  if he's only doing Walking Dead right now because they film from May to November.

Edited April 30, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

This is tricky. Post-fire John is canonically Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Of course post-fire Dean would be the kid actor from the Pilot who I`m sure is grown up by now. But they have recasted the kids multiple times and he was only a small presence in the show. John, I don`t think they would do that.  

And this kid looks older than 4, I think.

Hmm true, but JDM looks way too old to pull off a post fire John! Then again they expect us to buy Samantha Smith as twenty nine year old Mary so anything is possible LOL 

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Aeryn13 said:

This is tricky. Post-fire John is canonically Jeffrey Dean Morgan. Of course post-fire Dean would be the kid actor from the Pilot who I`m sure is grown up by now. But they have recasted the kids multiple times and he was only a small presence in the show. John, I don`t think they would do that.  

It would be cool if they got JDM back for a cameo but if they did that should be something they advertise as much as they can since a lot of people want to see him again.  It could only help ratings.  Or its within a month or two of the fire.

Although it doesn't necessarily have to include John.  On the s1 dvd there was a deleted scene for Home when Sam and Dean talk to John's business partner.   He says that he called social services and that is why John took off.  There was a very small snippet of dialogue that could be made out about them not being safe. I can imagine that John was at least considered as a suspect.  It could be interesting to see a scene of a young Dean dealing with CPS and being afraid of being seprated from Sam and/or John.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

Hmm true, but JDM looks way too old to pull off a post fire John! Then again they expect us to buy Samantha Smith as twenty nine year old Mary so anything is possible LOL 

Say what?? JDM looks fantastic!  He only looks 'Old" (what the hell do you young whippersnappers think is OLD?) when he wears that heavy grey beard. Have him grow out some stubble, put a little just for men, and he'll look just fine.

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think JDM is in it. He is too high profile to have been kept a secret. Even if they wanted to, I see the network/studio promoting it for all its worth. I think it`s probably just a Dean/Mary flashback. Or just young Dean. If this accurate which, could be.

Hopefully Mary is finally made to grovel about her shit this Season. I`m already rooting for Ketch next episode because at least he is an honest asshole. 

Meanwhile Lady Deadeyes, sigh. 

All in all, it looks like the conflict with Mary will be resolved in ep 22, one way or another. 

That leaves ep 23 for all Lucifer and Spawn. Oh joy.  

Edited April 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[rue721]

SO COOL if they do a flashback or back-in-time kind of thing.

It's possible that current-Mary will be seeing "flashbacks" of her sons' lives after her death. OR she could have "flashbacks" to her heaven memories. Or both. It would actually be really interesting to see a juxtaposition of Mary's heaven memories and flashbacks the boys' actual lives after her death.

Hard to tell the age Young Dean based on the kid actor. IMO he could play 4 y/o. I just searched him on IMDb and he's only 6.

[catrox14]

Here's a tweet from JDM from Thursday.

He's a busy guy, but I'm sure he could have jetted into Vancouver for one day of filming. 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Say what?? JDM looks fantastic!  He only looks 'Old" (what the hell do you young whippersnappers think is OLD?) when he wears that heavy grey beard. Have him grow out some stubble, put a little just for men, and he'll look just fine.

I'm not saying he doesn't look good for his age and I'm certainly not trying to be insulting, but IMO while he looks good for his age he doesn't quite look young enough to pull off someone in their late twenties! This is just my opinion of course :) 

[Aeryn13]

This show is sometimes very weird about age casting. When Dean was with Sonny`s, he was supposed to be 14, then 16 and the flashback kid-Sam looked to be 4 years old. Cole was supposed to be 10 years younger than Dean and looked at least his age, if not a bit older. And now of course Mary doesn`t pass for 29 either.

I believe technically they could just wing it with John. I mean, the actor didn`t look late twenties in the Pilot either. And he hasn`t changed too much from his looks then so that continuity would fit. But, again, I see the network promoting the crap out of it. He is by far the most high-profile actor they could get at this point.  

Edited April 30, 2017 by Aeryn13

[DittyDotDot]

I think Matt Coen could pull off John right after the fire now if they couldn't get Jeffery Dean Morgan. Although, I'd love to see JDM back just for Jensen and Jared; I'm not much of a fan myself, but they do love the guy!

[catrox14]

Just now, Wayward Son said:

I'm not saying he doesn't look good for his age and I'm certainly not trying to be insulting, but IMO while he looks good for his age he doesn't quite look young enough to pull off someone in their late twenties! This is just my opinion of course :) 

JDM didn't look like he was in his late twenties in the pilot either.   IMO he looked to be closer to 35 or more.  Matt Cohen would be fine. I'm just hopeful for a JDM appearance.

[rue721]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Matt Coen could pull off John right after the fire now if they couldn't get Jeffery Dean Morgan.

I think Matt Cohen could pull it off -- but it would be weird to have him playing John opposite Samantha Smith playing Mary.

So I think that if John appears but is not in a flashback/memory/whatever WITH Mary, MC could work...but if Samantha Smith/Mary is involved, too, it's kind of got to be JDM.

[SueB]

I think they can easily work around John.  Just little Dean and a baby in a crib. With some random babysitter in a random hotel.  

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

So I think that if John appears but is not in a flashback/memory/whatever WITH Mary, MC could work...but if Samantha Smith/Mary is involved, too, it's kind of got to be JDM.

I think Matt Cohen could pull it off -- but it would be weird to have him playing John opposite Samantha Smith playing Mary.

That's a very good point. I agree.

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But not Mary. He hasn't really been allowed to be angry with Mary or to voice his hurt and pain over her doing the exact same thing that John did to them all of their lives after she died. She's the one that he likely feels the need to have it out with(and especially over that) more than anyone else this season.

But he has expressed his anger towards Mary for her abandonment of them at the beginning of The Raid. The fact that he later took back parts of what he said doesn't negate the fact that he actually said it. 

However, you will be pleased to hear, that in addition to that scene there have been spoilers released which indicate that Dean will get to confront her about her actions in particular the deal she made with Azazel. 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

The fact that he later took back parts of what he said doesn't negate the fact that he actually said it. 

However, you will be pleased to hear, that in addition to that scene there have been spoilers released which indicate that Dean will get to confront her about her actions in particular the deal she made with Azazel. 

Thing is, if what he says isn`t gonna be validated and Mary comes out smugly on top again, I don`t want it brought up in the first place. I`m very wary about the same writer penning both episodes. I finally want Mary called out on her shit and, at this point, have her face rubbed in it. The character has thourougly earned it IMO.  

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

But he has expressed his anger towards Mary for her abandonment of them at the beginning of The Raid. The fact that he later took back parts of what he said doesn't negate the fact that he actually said it. 

I think the apology DID negate his words and his anger, though. Yes, he spoke the words, but there was never even an acknowledgement from Mary that she heard the most important parts of what he said there. So we'll have to agree to disagree on that part of your post.

As for the spoiler, the deal is not the only thing that I'd like to see him confront her about. In fact, it's the least of them.

[goldy]

http://ew.com/tv/2017/04/28/spoiler-room-supernatural-handmaids-tale-once-upon-time/?xid=entertainment-weekly_socialflow_twitter

We’re getting so many teases about the Supernatural finale. What’s happening?! — Carla
Not surprisingly, there’s a lot happening, because as showrunner Andrew Dabb hinted at the beginning of the season, Sam and Dean are going to find themselves surrounded by enemies. “Lucifer is going to play a lot in our final run,” Dabb says. “The first part of the season was devoted to getting to know mom a little bit and the first part of the Lucifer story, the second part of the season strongly has been about the British Men of Letters and how they relate to Sam and Dean, and in the back third of our season, we’re really bringing all that stuff together. After doing a lot of ground work and lining up our dominos, we’re going to start knocking some stuff down. Lucifer will be a big part of that, Ketch and the British Men of Letters will be a big part of that, and I think it hopefully will build up to a really, really exciting finale.”

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I just don't know that the show would make the Nephilim good, unless the child will eventually take down the father.  

I don't know why the nephilim wouldn't be good - or at least not evil - until it grows up and can make it's own decisions, even if that doesn't include taking down it's own father.  The nephilim Cas killed with Metatron wasn't evil.  

[MysteryGuest]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know why the nephilim wouldn't be good - or at least not evil - until it grows up and can make it's own decisions, even if that doesn't include taking down it's own father.  The nephilim Cas killed with Metatron wasn't evil.  

I don't disagree, I'm just trying to figure out what the end game is.  If the nephilim is evil, then it's just Lucifer junior, and what's the point of that?  One Lucifer is plenty since they can't seem to get rid of him.  If the nephilim is good, but all powerful, what then?  How does that fit in with our story?  Either he'll be used to finally take down Lucifer, or he'll take God's place in trying to straighten Heaven out.  I don't know that he will just hang out on earth and be raised by Sam & Dean, or Mary, or someone else.  How does that work?  I don't know...I just don't see where they're going with this storyline.

[catrox14]

41 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know why the nephilim wouldn't be good - or at least not evil - until it grows up and can make it's own decisions, even if that doesn't include taking down it's own father.  The nephilim Cas killed with Metatron wasn't evil.  

 

Lucifer is a known known. It's known that Lucifer will destroy humanity and still seeks to destroy it. That's why there is at least a 50/50 chance it is evil because Lucifer was evil when he made the spawn. 

Which leads me to a whole other thing.

I still do not know how nephelim's even exist given angels must be in a human vessel (thus far) to have sex with a human (assuming said human partner is theoretically not into sex with an angel possessed dog or something ) so shouldn't they really just be...HUMAN. Like with Satan's Spawn, Lucifer used President Jeff's body and sperm to impregnate her. I mean AFAIK, even though Lucifer possessed him he didn't alter Jeff's DNA did he? Is it just ANGEL MAGIC!!?

I can better understand Jesse's existent because demons were human at one time so that part of the "DNA" I can see making him able to exist. 

Edited April 30, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

I`m not sure the show remembers it but they already did the "superpowerful but not evil kid" with the Antichrist. Who apparently lives happily ever after in Australia or something.

So either they will do the same thing with the Spawn, have him rapidly age and send him off somewhere. Or, send the baby off somewhere with Mary. (a la Grimm`s Diana story) Or, have him be so powerful that, while not evil, he can`t contain that much power and needs to be taken care of.  (a la The Originals Harvest girl story). Basically, there is no version of it that hasn`t been done before.

If the Spawn was actually evil and this last episode was a red herring, it would probably yield the biggest surprise at this point.   

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's why there is at least a 50/50 chance it is evil because Lucifer was evil when he made the spawn. 

Doesn't that imply that children of rape are automatically going to be rapists too? I guess I figure it's always 50/50 whether any baby will be evil or not, but it can't be evil until it does something evil of it's own free will.

23 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't disagree, I'm just trying to figure out what the end game is.  If the nephilim is evil, then it's just Lucifer junior, and what's the point of that?  One Lucifer is plenty since they can't seem to get rid of him.  If the nephilim is good, but all powerful, what then?  How does that fit in with our story?  Either he'll be used to finally take down Lucifer, or he'll take God's place in trying to straighten Heaven out.  I don't know that he will just hang out on earth and be raised by Sam & Dean, or Mary, or someone else.  How does that work?  I don't know...I just don't see where they're going with this storyline.

I'm still hoping the baby comes out powerless. Highly unlikely after this week's episode, but a girl can dream, can't she? ;)

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Doesn't that imply that children of rape are automatically going to be rapists too? I guess I figure it's always 50/50 whether any baby will be evil or not, but it can't be evil until it does something evil of it's own free will.

Since this is a fictional character that is the spawn of the devil in this fictional universe, I'm good with saying that the devil's spawn stands a 50/50 chance of being evil based on the Devil being the Devil in this fictional world. 

[rue721]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Since this is a fictional character that is the spawn of the devil in this fictional universe, I'm good with saying that the devil's spawn stands a 50/50 chance of being evil based on the Devil being the Devil in this fictional world. 

I mean, I disagree for philosophical reasons.

But also, in terms of the show's logic:  within THIS universe, there is nothing intrinsically different about Lucifer (physically) compared to other angels. What makes him different from his "brothers" is basically that he's a giant asshole who makes bad choices. So I don't know why his baby would be intrinsically different from any other nephilism baby (or really, any baby, in terms of the baby's soul or morality or humanity). It's not like the baby is responsible for Lucifer's choices or is doomed to make bad choices just because Lucifer did. IMO this baby is just unlucky because it's being born to a shitty father. But you know, it happens.

The two things that I think COULD come into play in terms of the baby inheriting something "special" are: 

• Cas was alluding to the baby maybe inheriting a bit extra grace or something because of Lucifer being an archangel.
• Lucifer may have been physically altered by wearing the Mark for so long. I can see him passing on birth defects based on that, kind of like Gulf War Syndrome babies or babies born to people who had been exposed to too much radiation or to certain drugs.

Anyway, regardless, I also don't think the baby could be born with some kind of intrinsic morality. No other beings in this -verse seem to be. Not only are humans not born "bad" or "good" within this show's universe, but angels aren't, either. Even Guck seems basically amoral. I mean, he was super proud of creating nature, and nature is basically the definition of amoral.

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't know...I just don't see where they're going with this storyline.

I think the storyline is going the same place that the storyline wrt Mary is, wrt inheritance and the connections between different generations of a family. This season seems pretty thematically tight IMO.

This should probably go in the UO thread -- but honestly, I think the writing has been pretty good this year, especially wrt the story being cohesive without becoming simplistic or suffocating.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I don't disagree, I'm just trying to figure out what the end game is.  

I don't know - right now I'm thinking it's a "nurture vs. nature" argument within the show itself.  Imo, there's no reason to think the baby will be inherently good or evil - it's all up to how it gets raised.  Which, I thought was one of the points of The Future - with Dagon promising to raise the child to hate and kill humans and Kelly wanting Cas to raise the child to be good.  

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I still do not know how nephelim's even exist given angels must be in a human vessel (thus far) to have sex with a human (assuming said human partner is theoretically not into sex with an angel possessed dog or something ) so shouldn't they really just be...HUMAN. Like with Satan's Spawn, Lucifer used President Jeff's body and sperm to impregnate her. I mean AFAIK, even though Lucifer possessed him he didn't alter Jeff's DNA did he? Is it just ANGEL MAGIC!!?

Well, I think it has something to do with Angel grace - considering Sam still had leftover grace (sorry - that makes me laugh thinking about 'leftovers' and how noone really likes them....) after Gadreel vacated.  And wasn't there something said during that season about every time Cas healed them, he left a little grace behind?  So I guess the graces gets in the little swimmers and....

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Or, have him be so powerful that, while not evil, he can`t contain that much power and needs to be taken care of.  

Or what if he is so powerful that he can't contain that much power and just explodes?  Or implodes - which is what throws them into another 'world'?

[companionenvy]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Since this is a fictional character that is the spawn of the devil in this fictional universe, I'm good with saying that the devil's spawn stands a 50/50 chance of being evil based on the Devil being the Devil in this fictional world. 

I think the scene where the bible burns when Kelly touches it would back you up on that, Catrox.

Other than that, however, I think it would contradict a lot of the show's key themes to suggest that a child with a soul is doomed to evil because of who his father is. Yes, even if the father is Lucifer. If that were true, Gordon Walker would have been right in his belief that Sam and the other special kids needed to be killed because they were inevitably going to turn evil, and Cas would have been right to try to kill Jesse the antichrist. 

Within this season's arc, having Lucifer's baby be born evil would also seem to conflict with the BMOL plot, where Sam and Dean's moral objection to the MOL is precisely their assumption that people like the werewolf girl and Magda (if they knew about her fate) have no capacity to choose to rein in their "nature." 

Plus it would mean another "Cas is wrong" storyline, and the way that last episode was written suggests to me they aren't going there.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Or what if he is so powerful that he can't contain that much power and just explodes?

Not as a baby. That would IMO only happen if he rapidly aged. 

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Or what if he is so powerful that he can't contain that much power and just explodes?  Or implodes - which is what throws them into another 'world'?

I think that if the baby has too much power, they will go with the "drawing off the grace" idea, and whatever character draws off the grace might then be affected (either positively or negatively) by having a bunch of extra power. I think that'll probably be Cas, but it could be a whole lot of different characters, really. I mean, there are even dark horse candidates for it, like Rowena.

My main confusion with where the show is right now is why they've let Rowena and Crowley just drift along in offscreenville (or as exposition delivery boys) so much in this back half of the season, when it seems like they would fit in with the overall theme of this season really well. Not sure where the show is going to go with those characters.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not as a baby. That would IMO only happen if he rapidly aged. 

Yeah - but I think he will age rapidly.  I mean, if it doesn't take 9months for a nephilim to gestate, I wouldn't think they would age at a regular human rate either.  

[catrox14]

Okay but I don't think think this SL is an allegory to the real life issue of children of rape because they haven't even actually addressed this as being rape in this situation. 

This is whether or not evil Lucifer would have an evil child.

[Geordiegirl1967]

If I've missed this, apologies (this thread moves fast!) but did we know that Young Dean is listed as a character in ep22?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6836099/?ref_=nv_sr_1

The actor looks young. Maybe 5 or 6? So if there was a young Sam I'm guessing it'll be a baby. So it's looking like we'll have some flashbacks. Interesting. 

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Other than that, however, I think it would contradict a lot of the show's key themes to suggest that a child with a soul is doomed to evil because of who his father is. Yes, even if the father is Lucifer. If that were true, Gordon Walker would have been right in his belief that Sam and the other special kids needed to be killed because they were inevitably going to turn evil, and Cas would have been right to try to kill Jesse the antichrist. 

I see that differently because Sam was not Lucifer's direct spawn.  If Sam was the actual child of a union between a Lucifer possessed John and Mary, then Gordon may have had a point. But that wasn't the case with Sam.

Jesse may have made a decision as an 8 year old to go to Australia but he could be wreaking havoc now because the demon side decided he wanted to have more control. But again that was just a regular demon and human not the evil Archangel Lucifer. For me, it being Lucifer changes everything.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

5 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay but I don't think think this SL is an allegory to the real life issue of children of rape because they haven't even actually addressed this as being rape in this situation. 

This is whether or not evil Lucifer would have an evil child.

Okay - would a child fathered by Charles Manson inherently be a murderer?  Isn't that a closer analogy?  Would a psychopathic mass murderer father a child who would automatically turn out to also be a psychopathic mass murderer?

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

If I've missed this, apologies (this thread moves fast!) but did we know that Young Dean is listed as a character in ep22?

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6836099/?ref_=nv_sr_1

The actor looks young. Maybe 5 or 6? So if there was a young Sam I'm guessing it'll be a baby. So it's looking like we'll have some flashbacks. Interesting. 

That was posted just upthread a wee bit.

[MysteryGuest]

The burning of the Bible was surely meant for us to at least think the nephilim was evil, a la Rosemary's Baby.  It's the child of the devil, so that's not a far out assumption.  Now if he's not evil, I'm sure they will find a way to explain why that happened, but they wanted us to believe it was evil, at least at the beginning of this storyline.  If the child is good, then maybe the evil thing that Lucifer does is kill his own child.  We've been told that he does something truly awful that will make us hate him even more than we already do, so anything is possible.  

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay - would a child fathered by Charles Manson inherently be a murderer?

I don't think we can compare the child of two humans with the child of the devil.  As evil as Charles Manson certainly is, he's still just human.  Lucifer is the devil.  Obviously, there's no science behind this, but I have to think it's a bigger deal to be the child of Lucifer than just having the genetic markers from a nut job human.

[rue721]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I see that differently because Sam was not Lucifer's direct spawn.  If Sam was the actual child of a union between a Lucifer possessed John and Mary, then Gordon may have had a point. But that wasn't the case with Sam.

Actually, I think that Gordon had *more* of a point in thinking that children who had been dosed with demon blood were inherently dangerous than children with shitty biological parents are inherently dangerous. Not that Gordon had such a good point either, lol.

I mean, they actually did touch on this exact same issue with the psychic kids, with Max and with the twins -- and with Sam himself. And every time, the show took some pains to show that it was life circumstances pushing people past their limits that triggered worse and worse choices, and not some kind of evil inheritance (or even the demon blood). Dean flat out told Sam that he wouldn't let things get so bad for Sam as long as he was around, and then he actually DID save Sam in the end. By sacrificing his own life/soul, but that's a different story.

6 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

The burning of the Bible was surely meant for us to at least think the nephilim was evil, a la Rosemary's Baby.  It's the child of the devil, so that's not a far out assumption.  Now if he's not evil, I'm sure they will find a way to explain why that happened, but they wanted us to believe it was evil, at least at the beginning of this storyline.  If the child is good, then maybe the evil thing that Lucifer does is kill his own child.  We've been told that he does something truly awful that will make us hate him even more than we already do, so anything is possible.  

I have a really far-out, crazy theory that what Kelly is "pregnant" with isn't a baby. Like, not a nephilism, not a human baby, not anything like that. IMO she's possessed and Cas seems to have been possessed somehow, too. I think that's what the flashing eyes meant.

Maybe they're being possessed by a fetus, but that seems weird even to me.

Like someone else mentioned, this reminds me of Cordelia's pregnancy with Jasmine in Angel.

ETA:  and I think that Lucifer doesn't necessarily know. I think that maybe he does think that he's gonna be a daddy -- and maybe he's going to have a rude awakening when some cosmic force is "birthed" from Kelly and it's not actually his kid and he still doesn't have a family (just like how, in Angel, Jasmine wasn't *really* Conner's and Conner still didn't *really* have a family, either).

Edited May 1, 2017 by rue721

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay but I don't think think this SL is an allegory to the real life issue of children of rape because they haven't even actually addressed this as being rape in this situation. 

This is whether or not evil Lucifer would have an evil child.

I wasn't saying the situation was rape. I was asking the question of nature vs nurture. You're argument suggests to me that evil is genetic. I'm asking, are all children born of bad people doomed to be bad people as well? Or, can we choose to be better people than our parents?

Also, if a child is automatically evil because it's parent is evil, then doesn't that suggest that there's no free will? Doesn't that contradict one of the show's main themes?

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay - would a child fathered by Charles Manson inherently be a murderer?  Isn't that a closer analogy?  Would a psychopathic mass murderer father a child who would automatically turn out to also be a psychopathic mass murderer?

 

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wasn't saying the situation was rape. I was asking the question of nature vs nurture. You're argument suggests to me that evil is genetic. I'm asking, are all children born of bad people doomed to be bad people as well? Or, can we choose to be better people than our parents?

Charles Manson is a human born of human parents. He's a sociopathic human who is not powered up by the Devil IMO. Same with Hitler. Their children are human children. If someone thinks they are both actual spawn of the Devil, that's a different conversation, I don't think they were.

Look,   I get what the show IS TRYING TO DO but it doesn't work for me because it's Lucifer, the archangel of evil and thus there are no examples of horrifying humans that makes this the spawn of the Devil work as a real world analogy to anything. YMMV

Edited May 1, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

the spawn of the Devil

One point of disconnect for me is that I'm not seeing where you're getting your concept of "the Devil." IMO that concept doesn't actually exist within the world of SPN.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Maybe they're being possessed by a fetus, but that seems weird even to me.

Like someone else mentioned, this reminds me of Cordelia's pregnancy with Jasmine in Angel.

ETA:  and I think that Lucifer doesn't necessarily know. I think that maybe he does think that he's gonna be a daddy -- and maybe he's going to have a rude awakening when some cosmic force is "birthed" from Kelly and it's not actually his kid and he still doesn't have a family (just like how, in Angel, Jasmine wasn't *really* Conner's and Conner still didn't *really* have a family, either).

This would be an interesting twist.  Maybe we'll find out that President Jeff  was actually some other kind of creature that Lucifer possessed but he didn't know it. That would be kind of funny if Lucifer got played by President Jeff. 

Just now, rue721 said:

One point of disconnect for me is that I'm not seeing where you're getting your concept of "the Devil." IMO that concept doesn't actually exist within the world of SPN.

What do you mean this concept doesn't exist in SPN? Lucifer has been referred to as being the Devil and Satan since he was first mentioned in this show. I'm not following you here.

[SueB]

I'll have to agree, they've spoken about THE Devil as Lucifer but also generic "Devil's Traps" for demons.  But the concept of the Devil, in SPN, I think is pretty concrete.

On the Bible burning -- well, she might have still had a little Lucifer "sugar" in her body?  But this show's track record of nature vs nurture is pretty strong. Doesn't mean the baby won't choose to be bad. Or that it might have some issue.  Just imagine a teenage boy with massive power -- too much testosterone and not enough caution.  But Free Will is the foundation of SPN.  The characters get forced into bad situations, seeming out of their own control, and they choose how to deal with it. The heroes are the ones who fight any pre-conceived "destiny".  

Tying this back to the Mary story and the spoiler about Dean potentially addressing his childhood -- I wouldn't be surprised if there is some comment (by Mary) about how as a little boy he had a sweet disposition and now he's pretty scary when he's hunting.  Right there is another tie into the "nuture vs nature" theme. 

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think Mary has seen Dean being scary the few times they hunted together. And noone else has for nearly half the Season now so it can`t be stories really. To me it would be like Ketch with the "you are just like me" thing. Where do they get this from? Did they watch DVDs of old episodes? Right now the juxtaposition between sweet boy then and warrior now doesn`t work. 

[SueB]

Mary has seen Dean fighting in only 4 episodes: 12.1, 12.2, 12.3 and the latest was 12.12.  I just finished re-watching 12.2 "Stuck In the Middle (With You)" and Dean was pretty scary IMO in 3 instances that Mary directly saw.  It was Dean who was put "on point" to confront the demon w/ the Devil's Trap bullets.  Sam was to come in when he was immobilized, Cas and Mary were backup. Then it was Dean who confronted the King of Hell and told him to help or get the hell out of there.  Crowley can, in fact, snap his fingers and break Dean's neck.  That he doesn't is because of who Dean is.  Finally, Dean took the lead in the confrontation w/ Ramiel. Sam gets the demon knife, Mary an Angel blade and Dean? Dean is confronting a Prince of Hell with Angelic Brass Knuckles.

IMO, Dean was the leader of the group, took point on everything, and took the most direct risks.  Mary saw this.  

And although it's clear she didn't read the Carver Edlund novels, I'm sure John wrote up things like Dean killing the werewolf at 16.  Plus Mary has spoken with other hunters (between the funeral and Wally at a minimum) enough to know they are "legendary." She knows God's sister did him a "favor", he and Sam got Lucifer out of POTUS, he apparently spent time in Hell, has an Angel as a best friend, can call the King of Hell or his mother (a powerful witch) in to be an ally, etc..   She has enough hunting experience, IMO, to know that both of her boys are exceptional.  And again, just watching his interaction w/ Ramiel is enough to show his "scary face".  Plus she got a face-ful herself when he called her "Mary."  

In sum, IMO she hasn't seen him in uber Bad-Ass mode but I think she's seen enough. 

Edited May 1, 2017 by SueB